this is parenting for the everyday a podcast dedicated to meeting parents in the trenches of Parenthood we explore how our faith fits into our parenting with the help of our guests we are seeking practical tips on how the gospel can speak into our day-to-day parenting from the easy stuff to the hard stuff we want to talk about it all welcome to parenting for the every day I'm Holly D kju and I'm Becca Alvarez a few weeks ago we did an episode on realistic quiet
times and a conversation that we kept having coming out of that was this idea of letting go of this perfectly bow wrapped faith and we've kind of come back to it a couple times and talked about um how do we talk about it on this podcast in this space and kind of landed on me walking through maybe our my infertility Journey um because I feel like that's really when my faith my bow shaped Faith really unraveled and so I'm excited to kind of get to share share
that Journey here in this space and kind of walk through what God taught me and how he molded me and just all the things that came uh um through infertility and through loss and before we even get started I just want to take a minute and thank you for being willing to talk about this I know that this is something that is near and dear to your heart and a tender part of your life that maybe not many people even know about um I also think this is a little bit of an interesting topic to
be talking about this time of year but I felt really passionate about bringing it into a Christmas time because I think that Christmas can be something that is so exciting and wonderful but the truth is that not everyone's lives are in a season of excitement and wonder and it can feel really lonely when you're in that season and you and no one's really giving you space to be where you are and I also really feel like it would take a dimension away from Christmas if we left
that out in the sense that even Mary and Joseph were in a really lonely time and the end of that story ends well we know it ends well but in the middle when you're getting shut out of every place and you are 9 months pregnant and about to have a baby like you are so lonely and you are such an outcast and it looks so different than you thought it would look and that's really the basis of where we want to start this episode yeah it's funny cuz um some people know the
story cuz I have shared it and then it's been a while so I think a lot of people don't necessarily know the road that I've walked to but my journey to Parenthood was anything but straight it's a lot of Curves a lot of windy roads um my husband and I were diagnosed with unexplained infertility which is the most unhelpful diagnosis you can receive s it's just no answers and so you're like what do I do with this um later we would find out that there is a genetic abnormal abnormality but that
plays into it but it has been uh Decades of infertility and miscarriages and I I have had eight miscarriages which I always hesitate to say that number because everyone always is like oh um and I'm only saying it because I just want to like set the stage of like hey this was really hard and for me it came in the form of infertility and miscarriage but for other people loss comes in different and you don't need to have eight miscarriages to feel the depth of a miscarriage or a loss or
infertility and so just St stating setting the AG that losses really hard in whatever for him that that kind of looks like um and the biggest thing is that I feel like I grew up um in church in a Christian home and somehow along the way I had this notion in my head of what a good Christian woman should look like um and at its core it's this belief that she doesn't waver that she's strong um she probably makes a good casseroll I don't know I still can't do that um
definitely sour dough yes nowadays don't even know like what is a starter I don't I don't even know um but yeah and it's only through like the Journey of infertility and loss that I came to realize like how absolutely ridiculous in contrary to what the gospel says that that notion is and so um yeah we can we can dive into it let's dive so starting kind of at the top and you talked about having infertility impact your faith how did it impact your faith yeah in
infertility and loss I keep using those together I might just say infertility but I mean loss in there as well I feel like I could talk about it all day long and I could never be able to fully summarize what it does to the depths of a woman's Soul um it rocks every part of you um and it really wasn't long into my journey that I started to recognize that my head and my heart didn't say the same thing and so I knew in my head that I should be saying God is good God is
faithful God has a plan I trust this plan he has his best for me um but what my heart was saying is sure God's good but he's not good to me um and what I felt was forgotten scared unseen Alone um and there there started to be this lie that would creep in that if God really loved me I wouldn't be here you know if he loves you how could he let you go through all of this loss and heartbreak um and and what makes it more complicated is what I said earlier right it's this idea that like Christians
should they should have a faith that weathers the storm and can stand in the midst of that and when I didn't on the outside I'm saying all the right things but on the inside I'm not feeling these things so then you add this layer of guilt that started to creep in of man you're a phony you're a fake um you don't have a real Faith as what kind of Christian are you that as soon as it gets tough you fall apart and you've got questions um and you're doubting God's
faithfulness to you and so then on top of the loss and pain you've got this guilt and shame that the enemy just weaves into into a into a mess and isolation I would assume because especially if you're presenting one way and feeling it another way you can only do that for so long before you just start to not show up anymore yep yep um how how do you reconcile the belief in a loving God with the pain and loss associated with miscarriage and infertility yeah I I think this is a really hard question
there's probably not an answer that you leave with being like oh that's good I feel good about that that makes total sense um but I can tell you what I walked through um and for me at some point I realized that I Associated God's love and goodness with two pink lines and so without those lines I believe the lie that God was withholding good from from me um and it's so D that is such dangerous thinking I think that's the seed that the enemy plants in so many of
us and for me it's two pink lines but it could be anything it could be a job it could be sickness it could be a marriage wealth it could be your kids being successful but all of a sudden you know you've got that doubt that God's withholding on you um and so what happens is you start to look at your you start to look at God through the lens of your circumstances and what you have to get to a places you have to filter your circumstances through God and so it's that
it's a making your like getting right side up again I think that is the journey um and so at some point I had to accept the truth that not having kids um back in those days and even now like I've dealt with secondary infertility I would love to have more kids but the answer is no the the Lord has said no um and so I have to recognize that that no is actually from God in his complete goodness um and that I say that really with fluidity um but it's really really
hard to do um and it it what happened in me is that it revealed um I don't want to say the crack in my faith but it revealed this deficit in the fact that um the Brokenness and despair that resulted out of my pain wasn't a result of my circumstances it was the result of a Detachment from God and who he was and so because I didn't have a clear view on who God was and what the gospel meant for me that created that level of Brokenness from him not my infertility does that
make sense that does make sense I just I want to clarify too so you are saying that it wasn't your Brokenness was felt to the depth that it was felt I mean the pain is still real the pain is still real you know just if you're really Tethered to God doesn't mean you don't feel pain yeah but it was not the infertility itself I mean I would I would say like the depth of the Brokenness that I felt was a result of being detached from who God really is um because the pain if I'm
if I'm attached to who God is and I have a clear vent like if I if what I believe about the gospel is true right that at my worst um and most unlovable self God sends Jesus to pay the price um then that mean and he's working to restore all things then he is good yeah that that proves that he's good um so how could I reduce God's goodness to my Earthly circumstance so when I lose sight of God's goodness it's not because of my circumstances it's because I've lost sight of God yeah that does make
sense how did you get there oh man I didn't you know is that is that something that like one day you're feeling this way and the next day you remember God's goodness oh no no it's a proc how do you processed to there it's funny I remember um being in the shower I do a lot of good thinking in the shower good processing praying and I remember kind of being like really really angry and at that point I was kind of letting God have it like I was kind of like this is ridiculous you know
um you've put this desire in my heart and then you say no to it this is stupid why would you do that um and I really heard God speak to the depth of my heart so clearly and he said you know Holly you don't trust me to give you what you want because at this point I I had actually really stopped praying about it cuz we can get into that later but so he was like you don't trust me to give you what you want but you don't trust me to take care of you if I don't and so it was like oh okay yeah it's
like you had to wrestle I really had to wrestle with that for a long time and come to the the gra the kind of the understanding that did I just want G God to give me what I was asking for is that what I really wanted or is it possible to find satisfaction that when God does not fix the difficulty in my life but he instead gives me Grace to endure them without becoming bitter without becoming resentful that that is his goodness um Nancy Guthrie has a quote where she
says can I move from Desperately Seeking relief to diligently seeking to glorify God as I treasure him more than I do my own comfort and again it's really hard and it's not a yes and it's it's I would say it is a lifelong surrender to get to that point um and it's not something that I could ever do on my own and so to answer your question no it was through his strength his grace um in my weakness that he becomes the only place where all of a sudden it's the only it's the only way
that I can place my hope it's the only place that makes sense you know when you start to really let him fill in the gaps you know of all your wrong thinking you mentioned that at some point during this journey 10 years yeah that it was just something that you stop praying about so what did that role look like maybe even take us through the not the whole timeline but the timeline from the beginning of kind of what prayer and scripture looked like in a time of needing to cope during your
disappointment and loss and what it looks like towards the end yeah yeah I I stopped praying because at some point you get to the point where at least for me um it is better to not ask so you don't have to be told no over and over again right and so it was like a defense mechanism that I was you know unhealthily coping with um if you are struggling with infertility Sarah Hagerty has a book called every bitter thing is sweet and I highly recommend the book and she talks about how um she meets a
woman who is saying like um finds out that Sarah is struggling with infertility and she says oh my gosh I've been there I like it took us two months to get pregnant and that was really hard so I totally understand what you're what you're going through and Sarah was saying like it I wish it had taken me two months because when you're at two months you are still kind of in this like okay it's taking a little bit longer but God you have a plan and so that's kind of how the prayer starts it
starts with this idea like Lord could you give us this could you give and then each month that goes by or each loss your prayers just get a little bit shorter and shorter and shorter and and that's wrong and it's flawed thinking but that's kind of the path that I went to um and so this is also where I would say it's really important to build habits outside of a crisis or a loss so if you're not I mean if you are it's never too late but if you're not going through something really hard it's it's
this lesson that I started to learn that talks about um the idea of walking it back and so when I don't feel like praying or I don't feel like opening the Bible or I'm angry you know you walk it back and I gotta start with the gospel right so I got to start the gospel and I got to speak that truth to myself even when I don't feel it so I have to remind myself God is good how do you know that God is good and keep walking it back has he been faithful to you in other areas
of your life okay what are those areas those life what did that faithfulness look like did you see it in the moment and start to like release the control so that then you know you can start to be like okay God I can trust you with this really hard big thing because I've walked it back and I remember the past and so that's kind of how um my prayer life evolved um from being like Oh yeah I'm going to pray about it all the time I'm never going to pray about it to
saying okay I need to talk to you about it but let's let me walk it back and start fresh that's really good that's really good advice now with loss and infertility you of course felt that deeply but you weren't the only one in the scenario that was feeling that so how did your relationship with your spouse and partner evolve through the struggles of infertility and miscarriage yeah I feel like this is this is another hard one this is hard one yeah the enemy wants nothing more
than to drive a wedge between you and your spouse and he'll use anything that he can um to take your eyes off of the way marriage is supposed to look I actually when I was kind of preparing that we were going to talk about this I read a statistic that said um couples who experience a season of infertility or a pregnancy loss are three times more likely to call it quits it's like wow the odds are like not in your favor um and so you have to be com batling that
even though I would say the journey for me was very different than the journey for my husband um who also struggled with it but struggled way differently you know he wasn't the one that had the loss or was bleeding or was doing this and so it it it's just from totally different Vantage points and so I would say and again this isn't specifically for infertility loss but I would say you need to talk about it slash don't talk about it got it clear yeah yeah tell
tell us more um it's like you need to talk about it you need to even when you don't want to say how you're feeling even when you can't really articulate it um but also it can't be all you talk about otherwise it becomes all consuming to your relationship and your your identity as a couple becomes wrapped up in this and that feels like it naturally happens because you're like this is the hardest thing that we're going through and so trying to find that balance of
like we're going to go to dinner and we're going to talk about it on Friday and then on Saturday we're just going to be a couple we're not going to talk about I mean it doesn't to be that rigid but creating space for both of those um I would say that you got to search for Joy um where you can find it so it might be an extra date night a weekend away cake for breakfast I don't know that brings me joy you know that might that probably doesn't bring you Joy No it brings me
joy um uh but yeah seek ways um be intentional about seeking ways as a couple that are fun that can fill you up that can kind of remember who you were before this trial was like who you were as a couple and then um back to even that praying is to pray together which can feel super awkward and uncomfortable and I don't know sometimes I'm like this feels so weird I don't what to say um but you're praying for each other you're praying um with each other um yeah like
I said I had a season where I stopped praying and I was absolutely at my worst and my marriage was probably at its worst too during that season so you want to avoid that I think it's so good to even me though cuz I think that when we go through Seasons the right thing to do is to stay Tethered to God sometimes that feels impossible that you can't do that but I love that you even mentioned that you had a season where you weren't praying and that that didn't work out either no
no you know that sometimes you think like I feel so angry and so lost and so without hope that this is I'm going to try something else because right now this isn't helping um but then to hear yeah that's it's worse it's worse it's worse um what advice would you give to someone in the faith community who wants to support a couple with infertility or miscarriage I feel like um having people see you is the gift um and infertility and miscarriage and loss and questions it just feels super
isolating um and you know what I think makes it different is so if you have cancer and you go through chemo you lose your hair and so people know that you are walking through cancer because there are physical signs and they can see that that is not the case um when it comes to like infertility like people have no idea what you're going through and so you feel really unseen cuz I actually think nowadays people talk about it more than they did when I was really walking
through some of the thick of it and so having people who just see you makes a world of a difference um and so finding ways that you can remind someone they're seeing it might be a meal like a sweet treat again it's like the sweet treats for me it's the cake for me um it could be a text that just says like hey thinking about you um it's an awareness to know that like uh Mother's Day and baby showers are really hard days and so I still feel like there's people on
mother's like Mother's Day actually oddly is super complicated for me for me now even having walked through it and the way that the Lord has has crafted my family mo like Mother's Day is not a joyful day for me it like takes me back to all the years that it was so painful and I feel like I just feel like people's tension because it's complicated um so even just yeah like hey saying to someone like this day I know this day might be complicated for you thinking about you love you you're
not saying I know it's complicated I know how you're feeling but you're just saying like hey I see you here's flowers like on this day to help you think about it um so just being sensitive to those spaces um the other thing I thought was like creating a space for um someone to just be with you so they might want to talk about what's going on there are times that I I might wanted to talk but there are times that like um you know one of my my friends would like do you want to catch a movie
I'm like I do want to catch a movie and I don't want to talk about anything um I just want to laugh at this movie and eat popcorn okay and chocolate cake and chocolate they don't sell at the movie theater but they should they should um but yeah and so just having a space where you're like if you want to talk let's talk if you want to just go for a walk and not talk about anything important we don't we can do that too now you were going through all of this in this 10 years during a time that a
lot of your friends were building families and everybody was having B everybody was having babies how one how was that for you two how do you support your friends when you're in such a painful place um and how do you even handle kind of the feelings of I that came along with that that's a good question I once was really hurt I had a friend who found out she was pregnant and she didn't want to tell me and so I was like the last one to know and she was like so afraid to tell me and it
like crushed me cuz I was like oh my gosh do you think that I don't like that I can't Rejoice with you um now that's not to say that it still didn't sting because it did like it still Hur every time someone popped up pregnant you're like well good for you you know um but I think that you can feel both things and so you can both be joyful for a friend or a family member who is experiencing something really good and grieve what you don't have um and it doesn't mean
that you're going to that one the right emotion is always going to come out on top but I think giving it space and having friends who um recognize that space and give you space so for me if I was going to have a friend uh do a pregnancy announcement in a really fun way and a group of people I would love to know ahead of time then I can choose if I want to come or if I don't want to come and I don't have to run the surprise but just like being caught off guard with something could be really
triggering and so just being like hey I'm pregnant I'm going to tell everybody tonight through this game that we're going to play just so you know and then I get to choose whether I get I want to be a part of it or not instead of you choosing for me um so that's one thing um the biggest thing that I would say is to not isolate I think isolation is so so so dangerous I think it's the enemy's biggest tool um when there is no truth going in I don't know how you ever get
right side up again because just false things can take root and seeds can grow um and so I know it's hard because you don't want to go out and you don't want to hang out with people and you feel crummy um but at least find one person that you can be honest with and say like I feel crummy this is crummy I'm not having a good day um I would also say go to church like it's hard um but corporate worship and prayer and the reading of God's word will always like will not return void and so building
that habit to every week make sure that you are in church and you've got one person that you can check in and be honest with the rest of the people you can be fake with them doesn't matter you need you need one person that who's going to speak truth to you and love you through that yeah because I think I mean you already mentioned this but I think one of the things about infertility too is it's such a it's I don't I don't mean that it's such a secret but it's something that
people start trying to have babies in privacy and at what point do you start to let people in on the journey you know um and trying to find that find that time because it would be so easy to just isolate even more how have you experienced God's presence or guidance in unexpect in unexpected ways throughout your journey with infertility and loss yeah let's feel like let's see if I can take it all and you know sum it up it's like infertility um has been years of of heartbreak um for me and it it
comes in different waves so I might have a season where I'm feeling like really confident and then there might be a day when I'm like oh man I'm right back kind of where I started um but I also feel like my heart has changed more in the last 15 years than I ever thought it could um there is something so cool um that God would be willing to meet me in the middle of my mess and so it's like I didn't have to work through those questions and doubts and you know accusations that I was making against
him for him to be willing to come into it with me um and so you know he will hold me accountable to some of that flawed thinking um when those thoughts start to to creep back in and you know his reminders that like I am seen like I am loved um God has goodness for me even if it's different than I could comprehend on this side of Heaven um but the biggest thing I feel like that I would want to say or want to make sure that people hear is like there is no shame in saying that your heart
and head are broken um and that they don't match um I feel like that's the only space where you can really know him as healer and it's not necessarily healer of like like my womb it's like healer of my eyes like to be able to see him like for who he really is um I think there's nothing more authentic or beautiful um than a woman who learns to let God rebuild her life um day after day no matter how many broken pieces there are to pick up no matter how much work you did the day before if you come
back and you're like it's all broken again the next day I think that is like where real authentic beautiful Faith Lie um and it's like in that journey I feel like God has shown me the most beautiful pieces of himself and to say that he is truly trustworthy even with those crevices like of my heart that I like have kept hidden away from him that was such a beautiful answer and I think something that can be so applicable in so many different places of Brokenness if you were to
leave our listeners with anything what would you say to them yeah I feel like whatever kind of heartbreak you're going through if it's um you know infertility a miscarriage secondary infertility which in and of itself is so complicated because um you know the world is saying like you should be satisfied with what you have but your heart is still longing for more like wherever that is it's like just the fact that like God can handle it he is not thwarted by how broken you feel um if
you will just like lay the pieces before him and trust him to rebuild it like he is trustworthy and good and faithful to do that Holly thank you so much for sharing you sharing your heart sharing this really really hard side of it too um I appreciate it I appreciate learning about you and your journey and how you went through all of it to get to the other side I also want to say for listeners especially during this time um if you are struggling and feeling like
you are broken and at a loss You are not alone and you will never be alone and you have people that are there that have been in similar similar places and that are in your corner to cheer you on thank you for listening to this episode this has been parenting for the everyday tune in next time