Kate Mason (00:00):
Have you ever hit a wall in your relationship and wondered, is this normal? Do most people go through this? Or are we just not meant to be? And maybe we should break up. Can one person in a relationship create real change on their own? Or is it always going to take the two of you? Is therapy a sign of failure or could it actually be the smartest thing you ever do for your relationship? And here's a big one. What if kindness not grand gestures is actually the real secret to lasting love and what really happens behind the scenes When two psychologists fall in love, do they have a perfect relationship or are they facing the same messy challenges that we all do? Well today we're answering all those questions and more with a whole lot of honesty, wisdom, and fun along the way. You're going to love this chat. I'm Kate Mason, and welcome to Parenting and Personalities. This is the podcast that connects you to the ones you care about the most.
(01:08):
Now, today's episode is one you won't want to miss, especially if you've ever thought, is it just us or is this normal the way we react in our relationships? I'm joined today by the fabulous Helen Robertson and Shahn Baker Sorekli , two warm wise and wonderfully down to earth clinical psychologists and couples therapists. Together, they've clocked up over 34 years of experience helping couples navigate love life and the occasional meltdown over whose turn it is to take those bins out. As co-founders of Drum moins psychology in Sydney, Helen and Shahn have seen it all from the early honeymoon glow to the we are just not on the same page moments today, they're lifting the lid on what really goes on behind closed doors and sharing the small shifts that can make a big difference. We'll also mention their app, my Love, your Love, and their book, the Eight Love Links.
(02:00):
But we're saving the in-depth look at both of those for next week. So make sure you stay tuned. Whether you're out walking the dog right now or folding your laundry or driving solo with a bit of time to think or just finally sitting down for a cup of tea or coffee, this episode is for you. So get comfy, whatever way it looks and enjoy a real honest and refreshingly fun conversation with Helen Han. Whether you're loved up feeling stuck or just wondering what makes relationships work, there's something here that you're going to love. Welcome Helen and Shahn. It's such a pleasure to have you both with me today.
Helen Robertson (02:36):
Thank you.
Shahn Sorekli (02:37):
Thanks, Kate. We're delighted to be here.
Kate Mason (02:39):
Now we have got so much to talk about, so let's get started. But what I'd love to know is how did you start? What did you do in your early days where you're always planning to be a psychologist from when you were a child or something else? Tell me a bit of your history.
Shahn Sorekli (02:56):
It is an interesting story. I've got to say, for myself personally, I probably wasn't the most studious in school. And luckily there was a university in my area and they had a regional entrance test separate to the HSC, and I did well in that. It was more like the equivalent of SATs in America, and I was not sure what I wanted to do. My friends always did call me the counselor of the group, but I looked through the list of degrees available to me and psychology was there. So I was like, okay, let's kind of go for that and never really looked back after that.
Kate Mason (03:35):
Helen, what about you?
Helen Robertson (03:36):
Mine was a bit different. I've been to university. I was working in a pretty menial job, but it meant that I had to read psychology reports and so that started to fascinate me and I was like, oh, maybe I'd prefer to be that person and this person on the other side. So yeah, I started a bit later on in life.
Shahn Sorekli (04:00):
Helen was a career student many years at university, 10 years, 10 years at university.
Kate Mason (04:05):
I see degrees, so hang on. So it's okay if my son's on his third degree, is
Shahn Sorekli (04:09):
It? Absolutely. Eventually. I think her parents were worried for a long time. That's what they tell me and they're like, okay, she's settled down after 10 years.
Kate Mason (04:18):
Excellent. That's good news. I'll pass that on at the dinner table tonight and let the family know that the end is in sight. Yeah, so well, it's great that you finally found something that you love doing. So when did you two meet?
Shahn Sorekli (04:30):
That's a great question. We met about 11 years ago, 12 years ago. Yes. I think it's safe to say that we both had significant relationships in the past
Helen Robertson (04:39):
And
Shahn Sorekli (04:40):
They didn't work out. And I think we met at a stage at our life where we had probably a different level of maturity and we able to really, I think our journey in the couples, the main was somewhat already there as therapists, but we wanted to make sure that within our own relationship we could approach it in the best possible light. So we met about 11 years ago, didn't we?
Helen Robertson (05:03):
Yeah, well both thirties. Shahn had been, Shahn had two kids, he'd been divorced. I'd had long-term relationships. So as well when we got together, it's all amazing in the early days and everything. And then time goes on and then all the cracks start to
Kate Mason (05:21):
Show and the things you used to do that you did because you were in that first stage of love and then all of a sudden it's like, nah, not doing that anymore
Helen Robertson (05:30):
Get you. It all starts to shift. And we were really intentional I think because we were psychologists, but also we'd had these lives before. We were intentional with each other to say, are we going to make this work or not? Do we part ways or do we actually go right, this is it. We're going to work through what we've been given, which we had challenges, obviously like everyone, and we're really intentional with it. We're like, okay, well let's do a ride, let's do this.
Shahn Sorekli (05:58):
I want to say though, just for the listeners, we did have major problems in our relationship. I think in the beginning it was amazing, and then we hit a bit of a wall. So it's not that we had some fairytale relationship psychologists, it was more like when we hit that wall, we need to take a hard look at ourselves and say it's going to be up to us if we're going to really try and make changes. And when I say us, I mean ourselves personally and each other as a
Kate Mason (06:25):
Couple. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that because no one knows, but you do. They have to make those changes yourself. Exactly
Shahn Sorekli (06:33):
As
Kate Mason (06:34):
I know from life. And you do too. No one can make anyone else change, can they? No, that's right. It has to come from yourself. And so what kind of changes did you make to your relationship that got you through? Were they major, major changes or were they just fine tuning?
Helen Robertson (06:51):
I think so. A big part of it was, I dunno if any of your listeners are stepparents, but I'm sure they are right.
Kate Mason (06:59):
I'm sure there's a lot of people out there.
Helen Robertson (07:01):
And for me that was such a, it's been a wonderful journey. When I look back now, it is been amazing. I've grown so much and learned so much. But it was a challenge and these are great kids. They weren't particularly challenging kids or anything. So things like that. I think it was fine tuning in the sense of we learned to create a space for the two of us where we could just be honest about how we were feeling with things without it and managing the fallout and the trickle on to the kids and what's going on in the family. So I think it was fine tuning of slowing it down a little, really understanding where each of us were coming from. So the empathy piece was huge because we're having different experiences. Being the dad with a wife that's not the mother of the kids has its own challenges as I'm sure some of your listeners know that too. So yeah, I feel like it was just growing and learning how do we accept each other?
Shahn Sorekli (08:04):
Yeah, absolutely. I think as the parent in the relationship, a big thing for me was letting go of my idealized fantasy picture of what I thought our kind of family would be. I mean, ironically it's kind of ended up there, but I had to totally let go of it. Yeah. And it wasn't there in the beginning, but part of that is coming to the realization, as Helen said, of having empathy for the other position that, you know what, maybe it's not going to be that way, but that's okay. That relieves a lot of tension and pressure. And Helen and I really, I think one thing we've done really well is we don't get split or triangulated by the kids. I mean, I'm not saying that never happens, but if it does, we come away and we talk about it and we talk about it with empathy and with understanding from the other perspectives and we make decisions together that can be flexible and still change with further discussion, but out the sanctity and the strength of our kind of couple is really strong. And I think that's just been really great for the kids in the long run as well.
Kate Mason (09:09):
And I think that's a fantastic platform to have because even when your own children between the pair of you, it's really easy to get sidetracked and one person says yes, and one person says, don't just experience that today. And so it's a huge thing if you're a stepmom or whatever too for that to get come into that.
(09:31):
And
(09:32):
It's great that you step away and go, no, this is our relationship. It's the most important thing. Because like you say, without you two being together, there is no family is there
Shahn Sorekli (09:42):
That's not. And Kate, I can say your feedback there is that is what we see in couples therapy all the time. I mean there's often not always, sometimes two individuals have great relationships with the kids, but it's not unusual to have one feeling on the outside and split.
Kate Mason (09:59):
Absolutely. And children know that, don't they? Oh my goodness. They go in and Oh, my kids are always saying I'm your favorite child. Or Look, they're in there, hang on, they're out there and they're nearly 30 and 32. So they work as hard as they can, but it is really, really important. And particularly it's going to be a battle. You have to accept that that will be something that's going to be there all your relationships. So like you say, you have to keep working on it all the time, don't you? No,
Shahn Sorekli (10:26):
Stop. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. It is just a continuing journey.
Helen Robertson (10:31):
I think so, and I think that's the biggest lesson in all is that you can't expect a relationship just to go be good forever without, we don't do that to our cars. We get them service, so they keep running. We expect that from other things in our life
(10:47):
About health, health.
(10:50):
So it's the same with the relationships, whether it's your partner or whether it's your adult children or whoever,
Kate Mason (10:57):
Because it is so true. And I always say to people like my daughter and her husband when they first met, my daughter got up really early all the time, and he's a real early bed. And I said to her, so when are you going to break the news that you actually love sleeping in until about nine o'clock? And that came with a bit of a sledgehammer effect. I think he was in shock. He is just like, and that's what happens with this, isn't it? You are doing that first phase of love, doing everything that person loves, and it's a really nasty shock when you get to the end of that and all of a sudden they're not doing what you love them doing
Shahn Sorekli (11:31):
With you. Absolutely.
Kate Mason (11:33):
Yeah.
Shahn Sorekli (11:33):
It's kind of like the honeymoon phase
Kate Mason (11:36):
Can
Shahn Sorekli (11:36):
Last anywhere really from three to 12 months and our attachment to our partners insecure at that time. So we're all on our best behavior, if you like, and we hold the other person in mind more. I don't think it's a con or anything, it just happens naturally. But then as that attachment vulnerability settles, we kind of seek back to old habits and that's when it's like, ooh. Or it might be like that thing that I used to love about you starting to great now that spontaneity is also means you can't plan to do the dishes in the day. Yeah,
Kate Mason (12:12):
Absolutely. So what is the most common reason that people seek your help? And are they individuals and couples or are they both? Who do you see?
Helen Robertson (12:22):
Yeah, well, we see both and we see individuals around their relationships as well. So a lot of individuals will come with relationship issues because they do spread far and wide. And sometimes that's because they can't get their partner into couples therapy. They're unwilling or they're not ready. And then we also see couples as well that coming together and they're kind of like, I guess there are different levels of stages in their relationship of how bad is it, that kind of thing as well in a sense with those couples.
Shahn Sorekli (13:02):
Yeah, I think it's fair to say definitely we see a lot of couples, but we also do see individuals and sometimes the individual's not ready to come to couples therapy either. And I've had a couple of people, I'm seeing new clients in the last couple of weeks, both in that category. But the good thing is both of them are really highly motivated to change in the relationship and we can get good change with one of them, but we always say, when you've got two willing parties together, you can really amplify the speed of that change. We get to be in the room observing the dynamic and helping and coaching them to change.
Kate Mason (13:41):
So that is really tricky because often someone does drag someone else into
Shahn Sorekli (13:47):
Therapy,
Kate Mason (13:49):
And so how do you change that willing person because that just must be really hard because I kind of think about moving them into the space and they're sitting there resentfully thinking, oh, I've just been dragged here because, so
Shahn Sorekli (14:04):
I think I would say with that, if they're still committed to the relationship, I think we can pull 'em over with validation and empathy and also showing them that they're not going to be isolated or judged against pretty quickly if they're not committed to the relationship, it's a hard slog, probably not going to be effective. What do you think?
Helen Robertson (14:24):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think if they're not committed, and willingness is the decider of how much impact you're going to make in couples therapy. So if someone's really unwilling and really shut off from the process, from their partner and from the relationship, the odds are not in your favor. And no matter how good the therapist is, if you want to call it that, engaged and willing themselves, it's not going to necessarily change anything. But like Shahn's saying, there's levels of that, there's some kind of trepidation or if they're really committed to make the relationship work, we can kind of bring them back in to do it.
Shahn Sorekli (15:07):
Yeah, I think it's worth saying that willingness and willfulness fluctuates too, and that's fine. I think one thing that we're really proud of with our therapy when we train psychologists et cetera, is yes, we have a lot of skills, strategies, framework and formulation. Sorry, that's a lot of words
(15:24):
To
(15:25):
Educate the clients with, but we also teach how to operate with process dynamics in the room. So if we're trying to impart a skill and somebody is being willful,
(15:36):
We're
(15:36):
Not just going to keep hammering the skill because we are aware that the skill is useless at that point. So then we switch to the process of dealing with the willfulness in the room.
Kate Mason (15:46):
And how long would it take? Do you have a length of time? Is it a year that someone comes to counseling? Is there a kind of a timeframe? Maybe it's two or three months? Not really.
Helen Robertson (15:58):
It'll depend on the couple. So you can get really amazing results quickly in couples therapy. So if the couple are fair, they're both really willing, they're both present. They want to make the changes and they do the work. We could see them for a handful of times and they've got enough to run with. So we see people really differing lengths. And we also see couples that come in, they get some good skills, they understand a bit more. They'll disappear for a while, then they'll come back when they hit a roadblock and we might have to go a little bit deeper for them
Shahn Sorekli (16:33):
To put a number on it. I think if you've got two really willing couples who are motivated and into each other in four or five sessions, total life change, got the language now.
(16:45):
But
(16:45):
Other couples, I don't know if I should say the number, but I've got some who probably been coming for a few years and my motto is, if you want keep working on it, I'm not going to give up on you either. That's
Kate Mason (16:58):
Right.
Shahn Sorekli (16:59):
They're still together.
Kate Mason (17:01):
Well, that's pretty good if you've kept them together. If they're together after all that time, they're obviously sitting there thinking this is going to work somewhere along the way. So when they come to you because they're over the honeymoon period, is it because one of them might've had an affair? Is there a proportionate of people in that scenario? Because I know that first love wears off and that's really like I'm, my husband and I went through the same process of deciding whether we're going to stay together or not. So when that first love bit wears off and you're left with what there is sitting there, do they come and see you then? Or do they come and see you when there's an absolute disaster that happens in a relationship?
Helen Robertson (17:46):
So we think of, there's basically three categories of relationships, I would say, wouldn't you? Yeah,
Shahn Sorekli (17:54):
Definitely.
Helen Robertson (17:55):
Of the presentation in terms of not the content, but where they're we're at. Yeah, where they're at. And the first is preemptive. So we are getting more and more, which is great. Early couples. Young couples, not always young, but early phase of their relationship coming in. So because they want to maintain a relationship, they want this to be a really positive thing in their life. And so you can do lots of good work with them, obviously.
(18:24):
Yes.
(18:24):
The second lot of the cracks are starting to show. So it could be in that context, the honeymoon period's over,
Shahn Sorekli (18:31):
Or it could be a long-term relationship too that's been sailing along kind of okay, but not maybe not amazing, but
Helen Robertson (18:37):
Yes. But things are just getting too hard. And so again, with the level of willingness, great changes can be made as well. And then there's the ones that, it's like the last resort, the last step where things have been really hard. And it could be in the context of an affair depending on, there's lots of different contexts around that, but things are just to a point where they're not on the same page at all anymore.
Shahn Sorekli (19:07):
I think to your question as well, there's definitely a big chunk of clients that come in for a hidden problem.
Kate Mason (19:14):
So
Shahn Sorekli (19:14):
A hidden problem could be an affair that's now come to the surface. It could be a value clash too. So for example, one person might see that it's okay to go out with friends and use party drugs, for example, but they have never been assertive enough to have their conversation with their partner about that their partner might be flat against it. So partner two might conflict a void and then it comes out, or it could be gambling or porn use. That's like a third object person or thing that really splits the relationship, which means the relationship is then in crisis. So that's kind of like one group is a group in crisis, and the other one is it's often motivated by conflict or lack of desire or connection
Kate Mason (20:00):
Because that crisis area that's really stressful. I do know people who are in that area, particularly at the moment, there's more drug use out there in society as well. And I think that for the other person when that's happening, that must be a pretty hard time, hard thing to deal within a relationship.
Shahn Sorekli (20:19):
Absolutely.
Kate Mason (20:20):
And
Helen Robertson (20:20):
It's usually shrouded in lies or untruths. And I think the transparency is the lack of transparency is really key. So we want to teach people how to have authentic conversations with each other, even if it brings up some pretty uncomfortable feelings, even if it brings up uncomfortable things we see in our partner, but we've got to start to see them for what is, and often it's the hiding is saying the hidden things, the hiding part makes it so much worse.
Shahn Sorekli (20:59):
We kind of see similar kind of effects in a relationship to finding out something's occurring. For example, gambling or drugs or pornography use. That's not to say some partners are fine for all those things and causes no issues and they're transparent about it. But if it's not, when that comes to light, the symptoms are not dissimilar to an affair coming to light because the image of the relationship is shattered. And that is the biggest thing that is the victim in that relationship experiences and the loss of trust and sense of who their partner is.
Kate Mason (21:33):
So rebuilding trust, it's a pretty big thing, isn't it?
Shahn Sorekli (21:37):
Absolutely. It's very core and it takes a lot of time.
Kate Mason (21:40):
Time, a lot of time and a lot of effort. So I understand that many of those people that must come and see you perhaps don't stay together, or do you have a pretty good rate?
Shahn Sorekli (21:54):
Look, a lot of people stay together after affairs. You'd be surprised.
(21:57):
A
(21:57):
Lot of people betrayals. I always say this and I think it runs true. A lot of people say they wouldn't stay in their relationship if there was an affair, and at least half of those stay in a relationship and there's an affair, which
Helen Robertson (22:09):
Is great.
(22:10):
Yes. And there's a lot of shame around that too. I think that makes it so much harder as well. But yeah, absolutely. And where couples therapy can help as well. In a funny way, you might not think this is helpful, but sometimes when there is so much crisis and so much pain, sometimes coming to couples, therapy can just start to bring all this out and then couples might decide to leave each other and that can be a really healthy thing as well. So it can be a bit of a catalyst to the breakup, which we do see that too, unfortunately. I'd like to say all our couples stay together, but ones where it's like sometimes it's actually better for both of you to part. That's another kind of role.
Kate Mason (22:52):
And I think that's a relief. And we have all seen those couples together, just watch them and you think, why are you doing this to each other? Why are you ripping shreds off each other? It just can't be good for you. So yeah, I mean we don't have to clinging to relationships that are over, do we?
Shahn Sorekli (23:09):
No, definitely
Kate Mason (23:10):
Not.
Shahn Sorekli (23:10):
I mean, it just impacts your life satisfaction so much and the people around you, and it can just be punishing, can't it? You're not going to ever get over the grief unless you end the relationship. That's not healthy.
Kate Mason (23:25):
So do you find that the younger people, because today therapy is a word that's used all the time when I was young, didn't know what therapy was. So do you find that therefore your rise in younger clients is more because of that, how you might have more because they're just ready to accept it and go there, whereas my generation might go, oh, I'm not going to therapy type of thing.
Helen Robertson (23:47):
Yeah, I think that's spot on.
Kate Mason (23:49):
Totally.
Helen Robertson (23:50):
And the young ones often will come in earlier and just want to grow the relationship, whereas we get plenty of older couples who are brave to come in because I don't think it was a generational thing that was accepted and normalized. And they'll tend to come in when there's problems. There's great disconnect over 30 years of marriage and things or the conflict has just gotten to a point where it's just no one likes each other anymore. So yeah.
Shahn Sorekli (24:20):
Yeah, it's true. Generation X and baby boomers because I'm generation X, right? Because I'm a couple's
Helen Robertson (24:30):
Therapist ly.
Shahn Sorekli (24:32):
No, just what it is with the tough ones.
Kate Mason (24:36):
That's right.
Shahn Sorekli (24:38):
This does blow my mind because I'm a couple's therapists and I've been immersed in it for so long, a couple of decades, but they think I'm totally generalizing here, so I
Kate Mason (24:48):
Apologize. That's alright. Generalizations fine. Just
Shahn Sorekli (24:50):
For the fun of it. They think that they've failed in their relationship when because they have to go to couple's therapy
Kate Mason (24:57):
And
Shahn Sorekli (24:57):
I'm like, I don't understand. It's like we get coaches for everything, just see it as you're coming to a coach to make it better. But they're like, no, I'm not going to couples therapy because that means I'm a failure in my relationship. It's like, no, the young people don't think that they're going to go to therapy as soon as they think they need it. So normalized.
Kate Mason (25:17):
They're in there at 18. Yeah,
Shahn Sorekli (25:19):
Exactly. Yeah.
Kate Mason (25:21):
But the thing about that too, do you find it's more males than females that say that?
Shahn Sorekli (25:25):
You know what? I'm going to break a stereotype here. Really, we have just as many unwilling females as males. People are afraid they're going to be told that they might have to look at some of their own behaviors. There's a category in both sexes that don't want to do that.
Kate Mason (25:43):
Wow. Well that's really good to know. I would've very journalistically gone pet. Those males are the ones you're having to drag in.
Shahn Sorekli (25:51):
There's a lot of bad males, don't worry. Yeah,
Kate Mason (25:53):
That's right.
Shahn Sorekli (25:56):
It is. There's a lot of females. Absolutely. Who
Kate Mason (25:59):
That's really good to know. So we're just going to finish up here because you guys are coming back to talk to me next week and we are going to talk about projects that you have done and how you are making therapy more accessible to your clients and to people out there. I just want to know what's one piece of advice You can give one piece each if you
(26:19):
Like,
(26:20):
That you could give every couple or individual when it comes to love and connection.
Shahn Sorekli (26:27):
Okay, should I go first?
Kate Mason (26:28):
Yeah, I think you've got something on the
Helen Robertson (26:30):
Mind.
Shahn Sorekli (26:31):
Okay, so maybe there's two parts of this, I hope that's okay.
Kate Mason (26:33):
That's right. We can handle two parts, maybe wants two parts.
Shahn Sorekli (26:37):
So I love saying this to my clients because usually we get a laugh out of it. We break some is you can't negative your way into a good relationship. So what that means is when we're upset and we've got to wall up or we want to hold the anger or the stress and we're like, no, I'm hurt, I'm going to keep holding onto this. It's like, it feels like it's helping you, but actually no, we have to keep turning towards each other. The research says it, this is going to be mind blowing what I'm about to say. I hope you can sense the sarcasm that when they look at couples over decades, guess which ones are really have great relationships as the ones who have a habit of being kind and nice to each other. So we've got to instill that habit into our everyday life if we want to keep breeding a good thriving relationship
Kate Mason (27:27):
Very wise and very true. Yeah,
Helen Robertson (27:30):
Absolutely.
Kate Mason (27:31):
I agree with that. Alright, Helen, you're going to beat that one.
Helen Robertson (27:33):
I'm going to be hard and I'm going to say, you got to do the work. And so that means part of the work is looking at ourselves, which is the hardest work of all right, but doing it in a way where we're compassionate to ourselves, but we actually start to see ourselves as part of the dynamic or part of the problem, if you will. So yeah, you've, we've got to work on this, we've got to work on ourselves. What are we bringing into it? How we're responding to what's being brought in from the other side. So yeah, that would be
Shahn Sorekli (28:05):
My, I agree a hundred percent. You got to do the reps. You don't get
Kate Mason (28:09):
The growth
Shahn Sorekli (28:10):
By the reps.
Kate Mason (28:10):
That's right. No one wants
Shahn Sorekli (28:11):
To do the reps, but you got to do the
Kate Mason (28:13):
Reps. So does that mean when my husband says I'm bossy, I have to look at myself? Absolutely. Sorry. God, the good part is he doesn't usually listen to my podcast, so I'm safe because I'm not really that bossy. Oh look, thank you so much for being with us today. It's really lovely to have you here. You've shared really valuable insights about relationships and I hope that Allers sitting there thinking that if they've got any problems or people they can share this with, that would be amazing. And I'm really looking forward to next week where we take a look at your app and your book, the Eight Love Links.
Shahn Sorekli (28:46):
Fantastic pleasure. Thank you so much. Looking forward to seeing you again. Thank you.
Kate Mason (28:58):
Well, that was packed with a lot of laughs and a lot of heart and honesty and a few home truths, wasn't it? And I'm so glad that you're actually still with us. First of all, gold star for doing the relationship work by just tuning in. And remember, even experts go through relationship stresses. The goal isn't perfection. It's all about staying in the ring and showing up and being willing to learn. And just a few pointers, kindness matters more than you think. Couples who go the distance are the ones that make kindness a daily habit. Little things like saying Please and thank you and being thoughtful, they really go a long way. And believe me, after 44 years, Paul and I are practicing it right now, and it does make a difference when you're actually nice, try it. Honest conversations are next because they build a deeper trust.
(29:48):
Make sure you create a safe space to be real with each other that has no blame or fear around it, and one that strengthens your connection and helps you grow together even through those tough times. Then letting go of unrealistic expectations. This is really powerful. Release that fantasy of how your relationship or your family should look, and this then allows you to embrace what is real and what to work with. Then let's look at how great relationships take consistent effort. Think about going to the gym. When you go to the gym, you repeat things that you do with your body. You need to build muscle. So in relationships, you've got to do the same thing. You've got to keep doing the repetition. It means showing up, doing the work, and reflecting on your own part in your relationship dynamic. So have a think about one small thing that you might be able to do today.
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If you love this episode, please share it with someone who really needs to hear that they're not alone in this relationship rollercoaster of life. And be sure to be with us next week when we chat to Helen and Shahn about their app, my Love, your Love, and their book, the eight Love Links. Now kind words and a real conversation and letting go of expectations. Take a moment to think about that. Big changes often start with the smallest of steps. Until then, be kind to yourself and maybe give your partner a smile when they're not expecting it. Thank you for listening to Parenting and Personalities. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review that would help others learn about this podcast. If you are interested in discovering more about you and your family's personality types, you'll find my book, who is this Monster or Treasure in My House on Booktopia or Amazon. And if you have an episode idea, please send a note to the personality coach@gmail.com. Many thanks to our producers at Stories and Strategies, and we'll see you next time.