Kate Mason (00:00):
Can you recall a time when you were treated differently at school work or even in your own family, simply because of your gender? Now, what subtle messages about appearance, confidence, or even worth might the children in your life be absorbing from your words, your actions, or even just your habits When your daughter or any young girl speaks up, do you truly listen or do you sometimes interrupt without even noticing? How often do you think about creating a space for her voice to grow? Have you ever caught yourself praising a girl for being pretty or a really nice person rather than being determined, capable, or brave? And what messages might that be sending to them? Now, think back to your younger years. Were there moments where you or the girls around you were treated differently just because of your gender? And how might that still shape how you parent or grandparent today? I'm Kate Mason, and welcome to Parenting and Personalities. This is the podcast that connects you to the ones you care about the most.
(01:18):
Now welcome back to another really thought provoking episode. While the story of sexism is still unfolding as it has done for such a long time, it's one that really needs to be heard and more importantly, still changed. Today we're continuing our journey into the important conversation about gender equality, and I'm pleased to be joined once again by Dr. Jo-Annn Finkelstein, who's a clinical psychologist in private practice and an author of sexism and sensibility raising empowered, resilient girls in the modern world. She speaks widely on gender parenting and women's issues, and holds degrees from Harvard and Northwestern. Dr. Finkelstein has also worked extensively with adolescents developing programs for at-risk youth and serving in women's shelters. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, the Atlantic, Oprah Daily, and the CNN, and is published in the Washington Post and Psychology. Today, she's an advisor for Stop Sexual Assault in Schools and has also been involved in groups such as the National Organization for Women Planned Parenthood and the Chicago Women's March. She lives in Chicago with her family and two dogs. So I want to welcome our listener back for another really thought provoking episode today with Jo-Ann. Jo-Ann, welcome to the show. Great to have you back.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (02:40):
It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me again.
Kate Mason (02:43):
So Jo-Ann, I just want to start as both a clinical psychologist and a mother of a young woman. Your unique perspectives is brings so much value to our conversations that we're having. And we discussed your book called Sexism and Sensibility last week, touching on narratives that we've inherited through gender roles. But I was just wondering, as a person that's written this book, how does that play out in your life having a daughter? Did you have all of these ideas in your head from when she was very young and have you implemented them as you've gone along? Where do you find yourself on the spectrum of the work and how it's worked out with your daughter?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (03:28):
I would say yes and no. I had it in my mind. I mean, I think I had it in my mind because I was very aware growing up that I was treated differently than my brothers, but I didn't have the language for that. And then, like I said, in graduate school, I started to get the language for that. And so I was really clear that I wanted to make sure that I was treating her the same as I was treating her brother, that I was helping cultivate her voice and her sense of, as I talk about in the book Healthy Entitlement.
(04:02):
But the reason I wrote the book is because it was the book I wish that I had as she was growing up. I didn't have the energy to write a book until she was a teenager, but when she was like nine or 10, I started looking for books that helped parents talk about sexism and enlighten their kids in ways that wouldn't scare them or make them feel like a victim, but I couldn't find it. And so I didn't know how you do this. I was just sort of using my best sense. And so when I sat down and really dug into the research and really used my experience and talked to girls and thought about the ways that my patients, my teenage girl patients, their experiences of operating in the world, I put that all together and sort of created the book that I wish that I had.
Kate Mason (04:59):
So did you apply your learnings as you went along to your daughter?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (05:04):
I sure did. And bring your daughter up? I sure did. Yeah. I mean, I'm still applying them, right? I'm still sort of pointing out things in a movie that we watch together or she comes home and tells me stories about sexist things that she saw and we deconstruct it a little bit. That being said, she is a typical teenager and does not want to talk about it all the time and thinks I overdo it even though I think I actually underdo it.
Kate Mason (05:40):
Yep, yep. So in the process, did you iron out any of the things that you possibly thought were really important and found out that actually that wasn't as important as perhaps something else open conversations? Or has there been anything that you've ever said to her that you think, wow, that wasn't right, or?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (06:04):
Well, I can tell you a story of when I was, our daughters are watching us very, very carefully. And so I had been very careful as she was growing up to not focus on her appearance and to not focus on her body to be sort of body neutral and instead focus on what our bodies could do. So I'd say things like, we're so lucky to have such strong legs to chase our dog who loved to be chased, but I don't know, maybe six months ago or a year ago or something, no, I think it was before the book came out, I said, I started to notice that my daughter was getting really critical of photos of herself, and so I kind of asked her what was up, and she looked at me and she's like, I mean, you don't like photos of yourself either. And I was like, oh my God.
(07:07):
I was mortified because she was right. I had started to notice signs of aging. And so I would say things like, who is that? Or where did those grays come from? And so this is someone who's writing a book on the topic. It's just so easy to slip into our old ways. And beauty culture is very strong. Every other Instagram post is for skincare or whatever your algorithm digs into, picks up whatever insecurity they pick up on your, and so I sort of did that r and r, that recognize and replace thing that we talked about in the last podcast. And I said, I started to just say notice other things about the picture. I'd say like, oh, we look so cute in that picture together, or just great shot, or I look like I'm having fun. And then I heard her talking with a friend, the friend who's actually upstairs right now, and her friend said, oh, we look so dumb in that picture. And I heard my daughter say, nah, we look like we're having fun. I really think there are ways that we can turn things around. You're going to make these mistakes as parents all of the time,
Kate Mason (08:36):
Body image is abuse. And like you say, that's the truth. It is. And my daughter's got friends having Botox and stuff like that, and I go, but you're so lovely. Your skin's so fresh you don't need it. And I do have a girlfriend that secretly, she and I on TikTok at one time, there was a lot of chin lifts coming up on my TikTok, but she and I have vowed that we won't say anything and Cassel will tell me off if I go, oh my goodness, my Nick's gone. And she'll say, don't be ridiculous, mom, because I've always said to her, I want you to age gracefully and I'm going to be your role model. I am not going to do anything to my body no matter how much I might talk about it. But it is that awareness that they are looking at us all the time as their role models no matter what.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (09:29):
And there's actual lots of research that shows that. So that for one of them that's coming to mind is that even if you don't say anything to your daughter, but you kind of have a problem with her physique, she will have body image issues. And research shows that parents who fret a lot about their appearance and their weight tend to have more body image issues than girls whose parents don't fret about that stuff. And so it's just doing a lot of our own work to become more comfortable in our skin. But you know what? We're up against all of the same nonsense as our daughters are, right? There's so much sexism in the world, there's so much focus on appearance. I mean, globally across the world, girls research shows that girls believe their most important asset is their appearance. How sad is that? Right? So the focus on appearance is at the expense of all of their other incredible qualities. And so it's our job as parents to really focus on all of those qualities, all those things that you're not, you either have or you don't have other than the thing your looks, you either have or you don't have, or you apply it in a mirror. We are wanting to look at character and depth and wow, you are so good at handling frustration or you are such a kind friend or whatever it is. There's so many ways beyond being pretty to feel good about ourselves and actually
(11:12):
Being pretty, we show doesn't actually help with self-esteem.
Kate Mason (11:21):
It's
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (11:22):
Surface. And most of the time we don't believe it because there's always someone who looks better, who has smoother skin, bigger lips, whatever.
Kate Mason (11:34):
My daughter is attractive, and she was picked up by a couple of modeling places when she was younger. And she went there to one of the, I said to her, you can do whatever you like. If you want to give it a go, give it a go. And she went. And the best part about her was she came out of that and she said, they want me to be too skinny. I will never be that skinny, and there will always be somebody out there that's better looking than me and I don't want to do it. Wow. Yeah. She said, I'm okay. And I was like, oh, thank goodness I didn't have to step in and go, well, really, it's a world. So she came away with that, and I said to her, I'm so proud of you. She just said, I don't want to go down that track. And that was at 14, and that was a great moment, and that's such a
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (12:26):
Vulnerable age. So really she was sort of on top of it, but it was probably before social media, right?
Kate Mason (12:36):
It was, yes. Yes. I
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (12:37):
Do think because now girls are fed a steady diet of it that it can be really hard to push back against it
Kate Mason (12:45):
Damaging. And she said to me the other day, she said, mom, I think I missed the worst. Her brother, we missed the worst. She said, we started off with a MySpace and nothing like Instagram. And she at the wise age of 30, looks back at the 21 year olds and goes, oh my God, that must be so much pressure for them. So is it's so sad, so sad. So very, very hard out there in the world. And as you and I just discussed, then as a parent, we have to be so wise about what we say and what we do, and sometimes it's a really good idea to ask the questions because that's how we find the answers, isn't it? You asking your daughter about what she said when she turned around and said to you, well, you are the one that's picking on yourself. It's a good conversation to have. How do you see me? Because sometimes the answers you hear aren't the ones you want to hear, but it's a really great conversation because I think you'll find out, well, it's
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (13:47):
So easy to get defensive and be like, what are you talking about? I don't hate all my pictures. The truth is I don't. But she was hearing this, I was buying into this culture, whatever. I mean, you look different. It's hard to get used to. And then you're hearing all of these cultural messages that it's not okay. So it's normal to react that way, but I was really glad I could undo it. But there's so many ways that parents could intervene. I think about how as my daughter was growing up, she used to be used to be soft spoken, and her brother is really dominant. He's a dominant kid. And so he would interrupt her all the time. In fact, we all would interrupt her because research shows that girls and women are interrupted far more than boys and men, and they're interrupted by both men and women.
(14:39):
So she was just interrupted more. So I would intervene when I would notice, let's say that I had interrupted her, or let's say her brother at the point I'm thinking, we were at the kitchen table. He was interrupting her, and you have to be careful. You don't ever want to shame your son. Just learning too. And I said, it's okay to say I'm interrupted or Let me finish and then you can speak. And I said to my son, girls are interrupted more than boys. And so I know you're not doing it on purpose and you have a lot of good things to say too, but it's really important that we make room for people who have less of a voice in this culture. And so I worked with her on being able to speak up to advocate for herself, to have this healthy sense that it was okay to have a voice. And in the book I talk about the five voices that we want to cultivate with girls in the chapter one, healthy entitlements. So I think there are all these ways that parents can intervene over time that do accumulate and make a difference.
Kate Mason (15:55):
So you spoke about harnessing their voices in your book, instilling growth mindset, addressing gender bias in education and encouraging physical planned sports. So that part is harnessing the voice, being able to engage in environments and feel comfortable about sharing your thoughts. So that was a fabulous example of how to say that and put it into perspectives. Is there any other way that you can suggest a parent might help their daughter be heard?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (16:31):
Oh, yes. I mean, well, let's talk about this idea of, I mean, it's such an important question, right? Because being called entitled is usually a bad thing, something that we say when we think somebody expects too much. But over and over again, I see girls in my practice, I see my daughter's friends who aren't entitled enough, who lack what I call a healthy sense of entitlement.
(16:58):
And actually, here's what I found when I dug into the research. Girls believe they deserve less than boys. So this isn't just voice, but it really affects voice. And one study looking at this phenomenon discovered that it starts as early as third grade. So in this particular study, when four to nine year olds were given the opportunity to negotiate with an adult for their favorite stickers, an adult man, the older girls asked for fewer stickers than boys did when they negotiated with a man. And this reflects the same gender gap in negotiation that we see in adults. And when women don't negotiate their first salary, and research shows that they often don't, if their boss is male, they lose approximately half a million dollars during their careers. So we should be asking ourselves, what lessons are we teaching girls unconsciously or directly, that lead them to believe that they deserve less, especially with regard to speaking up respect and money.
(18:02):
So when it comes to speaking up, like I said, we interrupt them when it comes to respect. We teach them that being liked is more important than being respected. So what do girls do? They try to be agreeable even when they don't feel that way. They prioritize other people's needs and comfort over their own. And what do we teach them about money? Not much. We don't talk to girls about money nearly as much as we do with boys. In fact, research shows that we pay shockingly more allowance for chores and save more for our son's college. Well, in the countries that you have to pay for college. And that is how we implicitly tell girls money man's domain. And so here's the important part, when girls don't feel entitled to things like speaking up or being treated with respect, it makes it hard for them to protect themselves. And it's a slippery slope from gender bias and sexism to sexual harassment and assault. You might recall my patient, Elena, from the book from Sex and Insensibility, right?
Kate Mason (19:09):
Yes.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (19:10):
What she said about harassment is what's the point of getting upset? It's always going to happen, and you have to get on with your life. So from a young age, girls are taught to ignore so much, including unwanted touch cheek pinches, uninvited hugs, hands on their waist, and as they get older, it's shoulder rubs, hands on their thigh, a stranger's touch just passing by. So they learn to disconnect from their own bodies, which leaves them confused about who their bodies belong to and what's okay, and when it's time to speak up. So if they don't have someone in their corner who's telling them that this is not okay, that their body is theirs and theirs alone, what happens? They blame themselves. Elena couldn't recognize that she was assaulted by a man in car on her way home from school. Instead, she wondered, what is it about me that made that man slow down, grab my arm, twist it, and sniff it? Was it because I was wearing perfume? That was a long way, I guess, sorry, of getting to your point of what we need to do. And like I said, it starts with getting in touch with our own biases. So
Kate Mason (20:29):
That's great.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (20:30):
And so in the book, I outline these five important voices, and one of them is integrity, which is helping them trade, being liked for being respected, letting them know it's okay to have an opinion, letting them know it's okay to disagree, which leads to resistance, a voice of resistance, which is tolerating their anger and bad attitudes. That doesn't mean tolerating rudeness, but it does mean allowing them because we expect girls, we don't expect our feminine, our understanding of the feminine is quiet, polite, compliant. And then there's ambition helping them tolerate competition and envy. So feelings that girls often avoid for the sake of relationships. Authority is another one. Teach them to be proud of their skill and their authority, right? Too much humility is not a good thing. So we're just helping them own all of who they are, not just these good girls.
Kate Mason (21:34):
Yeah. Yes. And I think that's so true. That's such a valuable statement because we do, I mean, I'm sure that I brush that off for Cas at certain times because I didn't know what to say or do,
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (21:49):
And we ask them to be modest, which means downplaying their accomplishments. There's just all of these ways that we don't say be modest, but we model it. And there's all these indirect ways that it's stopping the show off or
Kate Mason (22:07):
Yeah, very true. Very true. Gee, so when we talk about growth mindset, can you talk to our listener about what growth mindset is? Because it's a thing that we are encouraging in all of our children, but how do we do it for our daughters? How can you shift?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (22:29):
Well, I think we,
Kate Mason (22:30):
Okay,
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (22:30):
It's a great question, and I cover a little bit in the book. So when we praise a child for their good grades by saying, you must have tried hard or your strategies worked, we're using what we call process praise and letting them know that we believe they'll succeed with effort or asking them after a setback, what would they do differently next time? That gives them a sense of control. But using person praise is when you say you're so smart, your kid got an A, you say you're so smart, and that emphasizes a fixed quality. So they may come to believe that this source of their accomplishments are predetermined, unchangeable traits. Either they have it or they don't. But the reason that I included in the book is because although girls and boys receive the same amount of praise, overall process praise accounts for 24% of the praise that boys receive, but only 10% of what girls hear. And here's the important part, being given more process praise predicts the development of a growth mindset and better academic achievement later on. So that's another thing, like I said, that's really unconscious, that for whatever reasons we end up giving boys more process praise and girls more person praise.
Kate Mason (24:01):
Very important, very important for particularly people. I mean, I know about growth mindset because I read about it, but it's not something that I think is really common knowledge. It is if you're in the industry and you're reading about it and you're talking about it. But I think for most people, and even people younger than myself, we went through the phase of everybody got a ribbon on sports day and the children thought nothing of that ribbon. So like you say, being smart is a very blanket statement as well, because you're not actually looking at the processes to where they get. So
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (24:39):
When my daughter, when she was very little, she would say she would try to draw something and she'd be like, I don't know how to draw. This face is ugly. It doesn't even look like, and I would just say, keep practicing. And I would make this motion that I had defined for her once. But then she knew was that the more you use your hand to draw, the more your brain learns. So you are creating this connection. So I would do this, and she didn't have natural talent, but she really stuck with it. She really practiced, and it's one of the things that I'm prouder of that I was able to say, you're teaching your brain, you're not going to be good right away. And she ended up going into an art program in high school. Oh
Kate Mason (25:33):
Wow, how good is that? And this is really good information because not many of us know the research around this either. So we need to shift our conversations immediately with young women into that or young girls into that process, because I think people, yeah, I can see that people would do that with,
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (25:55):
Well, you're making me think of appearance. We spend so much time focusing on girls' appearance that they then start to focus on their own appearance. And so we know that that can lead to eating disorders and body image problems and actually sexual problems. But what a lot of people don't know is that it also gets in the way of your cognitive abilities, right? Research shows that it affects your mental state. So what happens is it interrupts when girls are thinking about their bodies, it interrupts their ability to get into flow states, which are necessary for achievement. I always say to parents, it's worth thinking as your daughter's leaving on her way to school out the door, it's worth thinking twice about saying, you look so cute, even though you mean it so well, and you mean it as a compliment and you think it's going to give her confidence because looking good is so important in this culture. Actually it might be interrupting her ability to focus when she gets to school. And it's worth wondering how often girls get a body comment before they go into a piano recital or take a math test.
Kate Mason (27:13):
That is great. That's a really great,
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (27:15):
So there are real reasons to not
Kate Mason (27:16):
Just want girls to
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (27:18):
Know that they're
Kate Mason (27:18):
More than their parents. There are real research.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (27:21):
There's real research.
Kate Mason (27:22):
And that's what I love about this whole book is the research. It's great. Research is amazing stuff, and most of us don't ever look at that. So when we look at gender bias in education, don't think I am actually poor at maths and don't really ever want to try. I think it's more about if I wanted to try, no one would've stopped me. I don't know. But I think that when it comes to the curriculum in schools, what should parents be looking at for girls so that, because obviously there is a bias in education to make sure that their children are valued and they're encouraged to participate equally in everything.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (28:04):
I mean, I'd be looking at dress codes because dress codes are not enforced equally.
(28:16):
They're girls get far more dress codes than boys due to sexism and due to having bodies that are considered to be distracting to boys. But even among girls, bigger girls and girls of color are dress coded much more. So they can both be wearing a tank top or short shorts, and only the fatter child or a kid of color will get dress coded. And there's tons of research to show that it's not enforced equally. And so I would look at that. I think looking at the curriculum is really important, or choosing a school, if you have a choice of school that really makes sure that 50% of their content represents girls, that they're not just reading novels by men, that they're not just have history books that leave out half the population. So yeah, I think there's all kinds of ways that we want to make sure that girls and boys are being treated similarly. And also just the regular, if they're littler, when they do lineup, boys and girls, there's research that shows if you make kids, if you call attention to a girl's gender, kids in that classroom do worse. This stereotype bias, they've already before kids when kids are five years old. I'll just give you a quick bit of research. When kids are five years old, they believe they're every bit as smart as boys, but by the time they're six, they don't believe that anymore. So what happens between age five and age six?
(30:06):
Kindergarten happens, they go to school. So even though girls are actually outperforming boys in school, they're also, they internalizing the cultural messages that girls are not as competent or as capable.
Kate Mason (30:24):
Wow, that's very interesting. I mean, I was a year one teacher for many years of that age group, and my kids were all felt they were equal. I hope they didn't leave my class thinking opposite. But like you say, the girls were feisty, strong, didn't think that they couldn't do something, a boy could. But I dunno, that thought never comes across. This is very thought provoking for us all because we don't think
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (30:57):
It's just so subtle in the big ways. You're probably treating them really equally, but there's just ways that are just part of school. Things are so gendered in schools, which is shown to not actually be good for kids. There's research in the book where you can see just how these two different classrooms fared based on just doing regular things like having a pink art board and a blue art board or lining kids up, boy, girl. But one, some of the research I came across was if a preschool teacher, or maybe it was a kindergarten teacher, whatever, I think it was a preschool teacher, if they commented on that a boy and girl were working well together, they did this longitudinal research that found that they actually had better relationships later on with the opposite sex because it didn't other them. But so often we split boys and girls up and they start to do that naturally. And as parents and educators, we can encourage them, yeah, well, these girls are your best friends, but you always like these boys. Let's have them to your birthday party. There are all of these ways that we can encourage kids to
Kate Mason (32:21):
Be together, both sexes and naturally and to enjoy each other without our biases attached to them.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (32:27):
But then there are the teachers that don't think about gender differences and actually deeply believe there are major gender differences and that we need to enforce those. Right? You might remember the story in the book about my nephew's teacher who gave on a group chat that had all of the girls and boys, all of the kids of all genders on the group chat, he sent a video called Eight Reasons Women Want Men with Money and Why They Should. And here's the thing, this was a teacher that really meant well. He wanted to get the boys thinking about how to plan for their futures. These were junior and senior boys and he wanted them to, he was trying to motivate them. If you get a good job, if you go to trade school, if you go to college, you will get the girl.
(33:28):
But thankfully, the boys in the class said, get with the modern age. And they really talked back to him like, this isn't the 1950s, but the girls, not one girl spoke up. I read through the fourth thread. And so on some level, girls are taking it in that they are just not seen to be as capable. And girls need jobs too. Girls need a sense of fulfillment too. Most of these girls wanted to go to college, but there's sort of like the message is it's not so important for you, but it's really important for a guy.
Kate Mason (34:08):
Yeah, really important. And later on, if you don't want to pursue your career, you can just lean on a guy. I mean, that's a huge pressure for a male as well, but pressure on both sides, that is massive to even, wow, I'm surprised you got away with It
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (34:25):
Leads to a lot of, I mean, I think that's what's happening, right? There's so much loneliness in the world because we've been at this sort of patriarchal culture that we live in, really cuts off half the humanity of girls and half the humanity of boys. And we're supposed to come together and make it right, but it doesn't work that way, right? Girls aren't only the emotional ones and the caregivers and boys aren't the only ones who need agency. So it's our job as parents, as educators to really work on changing that. And I really think that if we can do it through the next generation,
Kate Mason (35:04):
And I think we can too. I really do. Lastly, there was encouraged physical playing sports. And you talk about how we need to ensure that they're given the same chance for rough play in sports that contribute to both their physical and their emotional wellbeing. And keeping your child in sports for a long time is really, really important. Both self-worth, physical fitness, the whole thing. So what is it about sports that you have found in research that's different? And look, I totally that I understand that our national football leagues here are all made of males and the female football leagues are coming up and there's still all of it around those women, everything that you mentioned in the book. So how can we encourage that equality as much as possible at home?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (36:04):
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that research shows is that you don't have to split boys and girls up until they're about 12 years old. They're pretty much physically the same. So just having leagues that play together until they're 12 can be really helpful for and for boys, believing in girls' abilities. Girls are, there's some research that shows that rough and tumble play, which we only do with our little boys for the most part. Girls actually A, enjoy it. And B, it has some effect on lessening anxiety in them. So you don't want to treat them like they're delicate. Be mindful of calling it, don't call it basketball and girls basketball, call it basketball or call it boys basketball and girls basketball, but don't make girls the sort of addendum to sports. And there are just endless reasons. I mean, including less Brent Breast Cancer in people, in women who play sports. There is research that shows that most CEOs played sports as teenagers,
(37:25):
Right? Most female CEOs played sports as teenagers. So there's just all of these ways. The last thing I'll say about this is whatever small gender differences that we see when kids are born and parents, the culture, everybody magnifies these differences and they're really, really small. And we see much more difference between groups like within girls and within Boys than we do between them. But we look at the most extreme. So any small differences, like you see small spatial differences, which also could be because we give boys trucks and we're giving them spatial stuff, but there are small gender differences at birth in girls who play basketball or girls who are given those trucks and those spatial toys, the gender differences disappear. But if we're always handing them the doll, right, it's going. Or if we're never thinking that they're going to be good at sports and we don't play sports with them, then those gaps will wide,
Kate Mason (38:35):
Can we fix it up halfway through? So if our listeners sitting there thinking, oh my goodness, well, I've stuffed up and my child's 12 and I haven't put any of this into practice, can they change, change, make a difference in starting at anywhere along the spectrum of what we're talking about?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (38:54):
Absolutely. I mean, I don't think if your daughter doesn't like sports or doesn't want to join a team, I wouldn't say force it, but you could play basketball in your, go to the park and play basketball or shoot a Frisbee or just work some physical activity into your day that helps with coordination and spatial stuff and gives them a sense of self-esteem as they see themselves getting better.
Kate Mason (39:23):
And this goes for every aspect, doesn't it really of
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (39:26):
Anything. It's never too late. And you know what? Kids are so smart, especially today, so you can talk to them about, I can't remember if it was in this one or the last one that we talked about. You can say like, wow, I noticed that I was doing this thing and that is just kind of sexist and I don't know why I was doing that. But we're going to change that from now
Kate Mason (39:48):
On a fabulous end to a great podcast. And thank you so much for sharing information that I think everybody needs. And I hope that the people, the person listening today will go and buy your book, which is called Sexism and Sensibility. And can you tell us once again where they can find the book and where they can find you?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (40:16):
The book is Sexism and Sensibility, raising Empowered, resilient Girls in the Modern World. You can find out about it and about me and about parenting on Jo-Ann finkelstein.com. I have a substack newsletter@Jo-Annfinkelstein.substack.com, and I am also on TikTok and Instagram at Jo-Ann finkelstein dot PhD.
Kate Mason (40:45):
Fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise in the ongoing effects that sexism has on our kids and the ways that we can fix it and do something about it. Thank you.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein (40:56):
It's been such a pleasure.
Kate Mason (41:10):
Thanks for joining us for this really important conversation with Jo-Ann. Whether you are a caregiver helping to raise young girls or a mom teacher, or simply reflecting on your own upbringing, today's discussion is a reminder that gender bias starts really early and so does the opportunity to challenge it. Small changes can make a lasting impact. And do you know what the good news is? It's never too late to start. If this episode sparks something for you, please share it with a friend, a parent, or an educator in your life that these conversations matter. And by having them, we can all be part of creating a more equal empowered world for the next generation. Thank you for listening to Parenting and Personalities. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review that would help others learn about this podcast. If you are interested in discovering more about you and your family's personality types, you'll find my book, who is this Monster, treasure My House on Booktopia or Amazon. If you have an episode idea, please send a note to the personality coach@gmail.com. Many thanks to our producers at Stories and Strategies, and we'll see you next time.