Kate Mason (00:00):
Have you ever wondered why some couples can argue about the dishes and still laugh it off while other couples like my husband and I end up with a cold war over the TV remote? Do you want to know how to turn those little squabbles into really big breakthroughs now? Who needs hours of therapy when you can actually make tiny changes that could totally transform your relationship? And can your phone be the secret to improving your relationship? Nope. We're not talking about scrolling through peer interest for date night ideas. We are talking about actually using it to connect with each other. Have you ever found yourself dragging around some emotional baggage? And what if there was a way of unpacking it with your partner without turning it into a whole drama episode? And do you feel like your relationship needs a little spark? What's the secret to staying close while life throws you curve balls without just resorting to a binge watching Netflix together? Hi, I'm Kate Mason and welcome to Parenting and Personalities. This is the podcast that connects you to the ones you care about the most.
(01:12):
Today I'm joined by the wonderful Helen Robertson and Sean Baker Sorekli two incredibly wise and compassionate clinical psychologists, couple therapists and co-founders of Drum moin psychology. With over 34 years of combined experience, Helen and Sean have walked alongside countless couples through highs, lows, and everything in between. In today's chat, they're pulling back the curtain on what makes relationships work and what to do when they don't. We'll be talking about their My Love Your Love app, an amazing tool that's already helping couples strengthen their day-to-day communication and their insightful book, the Eight Love Links, which offers a clear practical framework for building more resilient partnerships. Whether you are happily partnered, navigating changes, or just curious about what it takes to build lasting love, there's something in this episode for you, Shahn. Helen, it's so great to have you here with me again.
Shahn Sorekli (02:06):
Amazing to be back.
Helen Robertson (02:07):
Yeah, we're so excited to be speaking with you again.
Kate Mason (02:10):
I'm really looking forward to this next part because we know that you've helped so many people. We listened to the podcast last week learning to understand how they love each other and look at their relationships in much deeper way. And what I want to do today is I want to talk about the app that you have and I want to talk about your book, the Eight Loves Links, because these are really, really important things that you have written and created. So I'm going to ask a question I have asked you before, how long did it take to create your app and why? Hang on. First of all, why did you do it?
Helen Robertson (02:49):
Yeah, why? I'll answer the why
(02:53):
We started with the app, which might not make sense. You might start with the book first, but we like to do things differently. Good on you. And the reason we thought about making an app was because we were seeing couples in our private practice with our system of therapy, which is captured in the book and the app, and we just couldn't get to everyone. There is such a need now, which is amazing that people taking their relationship so seriously and a lot of people need help also, how to navigate conflict in their relationship, how to do the work to have a good relationship. And couples therapy is really expensive in Australia anyway. There is no Medicare rebates for it, so it is a huge outgoing. So we wanted to kind of bring couples therapy to people, make it more accessible to make small changes to improve your life because when your relationship is going well, your life is so much more meaningful and so much more contentment in it. Yeah.
Shahn Sorekli (03:56):
I'd add to just continuing on from that, we know that people with secure attachment styles have much more positive mental health. That's very heavily researched and attachment styles can change through relationships. So if you've got a bit of a blueprint to have that, then we can impact mental health on a greater level. Very much symptom focused in Australia rather than preventative. I mean, there's a shift in health in that way, but in mental health it still seems to be, we know we do know much more about what's good for our positive mental health, but our app and our book, the Eight Love Links that uses both traditional therapy and positive psychology.
(04:38):
The other thing as well is we can do the work in session. So the app is an adjunct to our therapy and a standalone if people want to do it. It's totally designed to be a standalone, but unless you're doing work outside of the session and changing the habits, the relationship's not going to improve because we just run in habits and feedback loops, positive or negative. So you're doing it anyway. It's like, but are we doing it for the benefit of the relationship or is it impacting on it? And by the way, sorry. Yeah, it took about five years to make the app. It did. That was your question.
Kate Mason (05:15):
That is a long time. That is a long time. Is that nearly half your relationship being together? That's a long time. My goodness. Wow. And so what kind of work was it? How many hours a week did you put into something like that? Or was it something that you just did a few hours gradually over time? And
Helen Robertson (05:32):
We have a general rule, we just don't count those things.
Kate Mason (05:35):
Good idea it gets because it might be too depressing.
Helen Robertson (05:38):
Yes, exactly. But yeah, it comes in cycles, right? So we'd have really intense moments. We created all the content first and we've never built an app before, so it was quite the journey for us as well. And then there's moments where you push hard and then you kind of pull back. And the whole time we were running our private practice,
Shahn Sorekli (06:00):
Seeing clients,
Helen Robertson (06:01):
Seeing clients doing family stuff. Yeah.
Shahn Sorekli (06:08):
But you'll see in the book the scale of everything in there. We really feel like every domain of relationships is covered.
Kate Mason (06:16):
Absolutely. And is the app, if you're not a book reader, is the app simpler than the book for someone to follow? Do you get what I mean? How does the app work? So you go into each of your eight love links. So tell me
Shahn Sorekli (06:34):
Work. So the app is definitely a more practical application.
Kate Mason (06:38):
So
Shahn Sorekli (06:39):
For example, the book has more theory. You're probably going to get richer insight if you did both or if you really read the book, the book's kind of like an analog version because there's questions to ask yourself and your partner and exercises to do, which
Kate Mason (06:54):
I love
Shahn Sorekli (06:56):
As well as the insights. But the app will actually, it's like I will hold the app and Helen would hold the app like say partner one and partner two hold the app in front of them and it actually prompts 'em through the intervention. So for example, one intervention might be like, okay, you need to listen to your partner, you need to make some dot points about what they're saying. And then we will feed that back and then it'll present you with an emotion list and you're going to try and guess some of the emotions they might be feeling and then it pops up on their screen. So it actually literally plays a part of a coach between you. And that's just one, there's many, many different interventions. So the app is very practical. It's not sitting there for hours upon hours listening to lectures. It's more like, no, we're going to make you do the exercise. Both of you get the phone out and let's get connecting.
Kate Mason (07:43):
Yep, yep. Isn't that crazy? Because the phone is the connector, but that is what people would do these days. I can just see my children on the couch with their phones doing exactly your exercises. And it's a great way too of getting that other person in because it's almost like a game, isn't it? It is.
Shahn Sorekli (08:04):
But we've,
Kate Mason (08:05):
It's not a game. We're not saying it's a game.
Shahn Sorekli (08:07):
No.
Kate Mason (08:08):
Well, it's not as fun as
Shahn Sorekli (08:09):
The game. We want to be honest about it. If the app was as entertaining as TikTok, you probably wouldn't be working on your relationship.
Kate Mason (08:20):
No.
Shahn Sorekli (08:21):
While you have your phone in your hand. Some of it's fun, some of it's even exciting when you're doing the sex and desire stuff, if you've got a reasonable sexual connection. Some of it's erotically charging even,
Kate Mason (08:33):
But
Shahn Sorekli (08:33):
A lot of it is hard work too. It's like, okay, so I go in the gym, I don't feel like it, but then, oh, now I feel great that we just did an hour of connecting together because it's not like you're squirreling away on your phone together. It's making you work face to face.
Helen Robertson (08:48):
And we wanted to really keep that because digital media I think at the moment has a really disconnecting effect on relationships. So we wanted to utilize it for good in a way. So most of the exercises are actually together. The phone is actually just bringing you together and
Kate Mason (09:08):
Do you suggest discussing it? There's always a suggestion of discussing, I guess it creates discussion, doesn't it?
Shahn Sorekli (09:13):
Absolutely.
Kate Mason (09:15):
Yeah. I mean I think it's a great way of doing it rather than sitting down with a pen and paper because like you say, it prompts and the other person's reading what you're reading and yeah,
Shahn Sorekli (09:25):
Absolutely.
Kate Mason (09:25):
I think that's a perfect way to do it. Not perhaps with the older people like myself, but no, look, I know how to use my phone. It's pretty, Paul, we could do it. We could do it.
Shahn Sorekli (09:36):
Well, in the book, we talk about magic moments in the app. We call it love generating activities just to, to explicitly say what we're doing. But for example, this bit's a bit fun. Both of you get separate challenges that you can then tick off as you do them. You don't have to tell your partner you're doing them, but you can spy on your partner's score to see if they're doing more or less than you. And people are like, oh, do I really need that? And I'm like, oh, well how kind and fun and spontaneous have you been in the last week? Okay, nothing. Alright, maybe try out these random challenges that pop up on your phone. Some are really easy to do, low hanging fruit, some of them require a bit more thought and time and let's get some behaviors rolling in that direction.
Kate Mason (10:19):
That's a great idea. I'm that's a great idea. And because my husband's an reader, I always have to read stuff out to him. And I'm sure a lot of people are in that structure in their relationship that the other person doesn't read much or they're not interested in reading. But when you've got an app there that's prompting you and it's not a lot of reading and you're doing exercises at the same time, so to speak, I think that's a really great, yeah, what a fabulous idea. So did you think of that yourselves, you two, did you see it anywhere else or
Helen Robertson (10:51):
Yeah. No, there's not really. We couldn't really find much that I don't think anything really replicates what we do and not that we know of. Not that we know of. There might be other stuff,
Shahn Sorekli (11:02):
Certainly not in Australia,
Helen Robertson (11:05):
But we tried to base it on the core principles of our couples therapy. So it is evidence-based, seen it time and time again with our couples, but doing it in a way that you can take it home. And like Sean mentioned, we use it with our couples as well in couples therapy. So it's a great little tool to, we might work on something in the session and then they get to do it through the app from home and it keeps everyone a bit more accountable and they can remember as well what we were doing.
Shahn Sorekli (11:37):
And the other thing is as well in therapy, unfortunately you do a little bit, but you don't get to spend as much time on the positive behaviors because you're helping them work through the knots if you like. So the app can be like, this stuff's all positive, this part of the app for example, that's your homework. And if they're spontaneously asking each other questions that are thoughtful and provoking but not stresses about the relationship, things like that, it becomes easy for them to go home and do that while we're doing the harder stuff in session. Yeah,
Kate Mason (12:07):
It does create, like you say, homework because you can walk from one session to another session and not have done anything or made any effort in the meantime. So what a great,
Shahn Sorekli (12:15):
Absolutely
Kate Mason (12:16):
Great idea. I bet you've seen that before,
Shahn Sorekli (12:19):
Probably more than once.
Kate Mason (12:22):
And then it's kind of like, well, why are you here? Because if you're not practicing it, it's really hard. It doesn't create change, does it?
Shahn Sorekli (12:28):
Yeah, that's
Kate Mason (12:29):
Right. That behind it. So now you mentioned, no, let's talk about your eight love links because otherwise we're going to run out of time. So talk to me about, there's a lot. So tell us what they are and then maybe tell us about a couple that you see is important.
Shahn Sorekli (12:47):
So I think what we wanted to do just quickly, we did get feedback from the app because both people have to do it. It's like, oh, I want to get this information, but my partner's not really wanting to do it or not ready to do it, for example. So we said, okay, we've got this feedback a number of times, we need to get this down, we need to create the book. So basically the eight love lengths, it's a roadmap to a thriving relationship, but it's also a roadmap to analysis, self-reflection, personal and couples growth. We might say, I want to work on my relationship, but then we dunno where to go or where to start. And the idea about the eight love links is that these eight domains are pillars of the relationship and they're mutually influential. So if one of your links starts to become negative, that may well breed into another link.
(13:40):
But the good thing is if one starts to become positive, it might positively influence on the other. So for example, let's say emotional connection and validation, which is feeling the story in link four, say that drops off, then people often find not always, their sex life drops off too, which is link number eight. If you've got two people who are willing to work on their sex life that might positively affect their emotional feelings and validation, usually it's the other way around. If we work on the emotional feelings and validation, sex life spontaneously improves. We've got the whole eight love link about sex life. But often by the time we get there, if people want to work on that last, they're already having sex by the time we get there, it's fine. It is moved it along. Yeah, absolutely. So the Oh, sorry, go for
Kate Mason (14:33):
It. I was just going to say, are people still reluctant to talk about their sex lives in that these days? Because it's just really interesting. I find the youth still quite prudish around stuff like that. Yeah, definitely. Which is really interesting. I mean because I'm sad to save my children a bit out there with language that's good and discussion around that, but they're kind of like, mom, shut it down. And I always say that, look, I think that is, like you say, that's one pillar that a lot of people when they've had babies or when things that they let go, and I was saying to my kids they didn't want this conversation. And I said to them, that's one of the most important things. You can't let that go you. That is part of your full relationship. It's really, really important.
Shahn Sorekli (15:25):
Absolutely. So
Kate Mason (15:26):
You do find that about people.
Shahn Sorekli (15:29):
Yeah. Confirming what you said in Sex and Desire, the Love link, we actually document a lot of the research that shows the benefit of a good sex life and all the research done over decades. Surprise, surprise, again, if you have a good sex life, you've got a good emotional connection. If you have a good emotional connection, you've got a good sex life. But the mental health and physical benefits are the surprising factors of that. And if both couples don't want to have sex, that's fine, we're not going to push that. But if that desire is still there, there's so much to be kind of gained from it. But I think yeah, we do find the youngies or the midis or the oldies, some couples are fine and great and others really are a bit embarrassed and
Helen Robertson (16:13):
Awkward to
Shahn Sorekli (16:14):
Talk about it.
Helen Robertson (16:15):
I think it's just an area of life that where a lot of the other factors we talk about in the other links. So for instance, we have baggage claim, which is really just about our vulnerabilities and wounds that we've accumulated through life, whether it's from early life through past relationships, early iterations of our relationships too. All of those can get really triggered when it comes to sex conflict can be a really hard one around sex as well. So I feel like it's a really sensitive area that needs, we need to tread gently and a lot of judgment and shame. There is a lot around sex and around certain behaviors and things like that. So yeah, I think it still sits in this really kind of cordoned off area though. A lot of people are doing it, it's, it needs some tender care.
Shahn Sorekli (17:10):
Just saying, Kate, you talk about it a lot. I think that's great because when shame and that does pop up for people, it's usually associated to family perceptions of sex and stuff like that. So as parents for example, it is still awkward if your parents didn't talk about sex. It might be awkward for you to talk to your kids about it, but it is good to get it out there a little bit so we can kind of say, yeah, there's nothing to, there's no shame in any of this. It's just a natural part of life.
Kate Mason (17:39):
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I think it's really important. So other links, and I love they're links because like you say, obviously they're linked. So one thing goes down and the other thing does. And similarly, yes. So what's another one that you think none can be more important than the other course? No, but what's another one?
Shahn Sorekli (18:02):
Yeah, well let's just go with the first one,
(18:05):
And we touched on it a little bit last week when we spoke to you, but the first one is called the me in we. And it's about the undeniable truth of relationships that we all bring something to it. And if you like, we bring relationship interfering behaviors and we bring strengths. And your relationship interfering behavior might not be interfering behavior in other relationships, but because your partner's got stuff, it might be with them. So for example, let's say you're an amazing manager at work and you over function for your team and your team love it. And you love it, that's fine. And this is a very subtle one because relationship interfering behaviors can be obvious or subtle if you're really angry all the time, that's pretty obvious. But if you are overly managing the house or your partner, but then frustrated that they're under functioning, that's like an example of a relationship interfering behavior that we might not be aware of. So it is about developing an insight to what we bring to the relationship, but also the strengths that we bring to the relationship and the strengths that our partner brings into the relationship. And it's a loosening up idea. It's not like when people read the eight love links and they start that first chapter, we're not looking for change, we're looking for a loosening. We're
(19:30):
Saying
(19:31):
Stop holding on so tightly to the way we look at things, maybe our perspective, maybe there's more than one perspective, maybe there's multiple perspectives. Let's stay open to this or start analyzing ourselves. If you can do that through life, you can stay flexible. If you can't do that through life, you'll remain rigid. And rigidity is highly correlated with relationship distress and dissatisfaction. But yeah, they're all important. Do you want to call up another one?
Helen Robertson (19:58):
Yeah,
Shahn Sorekli (19:58):
Others come to mind?
Helen Robertson (20:00):
Yeah, sure. Well, I mentioned baggage claim. Let's look at that in the sense, and look, we use the word baggage because everyone's heard of that, right? Often in a negative way. Like, oh, they've got loads of baggage, like stickier of that, and we want to take back that kind of connotation and go, no, we do have baggage. We all grow up. We're all humans. We all have a family of origins that probably aren't perfect because who can be perfect
Kate Mason (20:30):
Except for us here, right?
Helen Robertson (20:31):
Oh yeah, you can tell your kids any problems that I have now that's on them,
Kate Mason (20:39):
Not your responsibility. Yeah, sorry, go on Helen.
Helen Robertson (20:42):
No, no, no. But yeah, we're kind of accumulating these kind of wounds and could, we didn't get certain needs met. So for instance, I'll tell you about one. So once we have a category, we have a bunch of different baggages that people will learn about. And these come from, like I said, family of origin, but also past relationships or past iterations of the same relationship, especially when you've been together for 40 years.
(21:09):
Everyone changes a lot in those decades. And so we end up carrying these bags around with us and we drag 'em into our next relationship. Often none the wise. And we might have hints of awareness, but we're like, no, no, no, that's fine. And then the bag explodes when something happens. So for instance, one of our baggages is neglect baggage. And so that might come from a family of origin where parents were just super busy, they had to work really hard to provide for their kids. They were from a different generation, so they didn't talk about how their children were feeling and what was going on inside them. And so if we've experienced that, we might have an unmet need of being tuned into being understood, being validated, and we need that. Everyone needs that. That's well and truly been studied and validated. So if we carry that kind of unmet need and then we get into a relationship and we don't really realize that there's this unmet need.
(22:11):
And so when your partner picks up their phone when you're talking and starts typing away at it, that page might explode or they aren't the most thoughtful to you. And so yeah, it can create conflict which will play into our other link, obviously conflict compass. So in the book we and the app, we really work to identify building that insight. So again, it's kind of like building insight is a really big part of the process and working out how can we take care of each other? How can we actually go, okay, I have this baggage, I'm going to try and work on it for myself, but my partner can help me with that too, so I can heal. Yeah. So that's a baggage that's
Kate Mason (22:55):
Nice to create a team effort out of it. And I love
Shahn Sorekli (22:59):
The
Kate Mason (23:00):
Thought of baggage. You can play with that and go, help me unpack my bags. There's a whole lot of fun language that can go with that too, when you want to make it enjoyable, so to speak. But it is go.
Shahn Sorekli (23:14):
Yeah, I was going to say segueing from the teamwork is probably worth mentioning. For example, our deep connections. Lovely. I do want to highlight, it's not all about the doom. No. Or I shouldn't say that's doom because if you take care of each other's baggage, you feel total love. That's amazing.
(23:32):
But we've got the magic moments, we've got deep connections. There's a post, a focus on positive psychology too. People want to have a long-term relationship. But if you pose a question, how do you get closer through the lifespan? People have some ideas, but what the deep connections module does is it gives you some very clear structured evidence-based strategies that you can then ask yourself, are we feeding into these or are we neglecting these? Because if you're neglecting them, then the relationship's probably going to stagnate and become disconnected. And if you're feeding into them, you're probably just going to feel more fulfilled.
Helen Robertson (24:15):
And so for one of those, as an example would be are we building goals together, for instance, based on our shared values as a couple? So are we actually having something on the horizon that we're both working towards that brings meaning to us both, or do we just have a lot of our own personal goals, which are great too? We want that independence as well, but we need the togetherness just as much. So that would be an example of building those deeper connections.
Kate Mason (24:47):
I love that. I feel like you're talking to me.
Shahn Sorekli (24:51):
Another example. Go for it, Kate.
Helen Robertson (24:54):
Need
Kate Mason (24:54):
Some more couples goals maybe. Yeah, maybe because people come to stages in life, so my husband's just retired, still got kids around. And you do lose that. I'm sitting here listening to you going, where are those goals? Because all of a sudden they become split amongst what your kids do, where life's taking you, what Paul will move to next, because I've told him he's not really retiring, he's just finding another project because he is very active person and a really good delegator. And I don't want to be home hearing delegation. But like you say, this is a really important time for him and I in our relationship to be doing exactly what you, I'll skip ahead to that one in my book while I'm reading and have a quick checkout because it is, and I think this is the thing about reading your book and doing this is that each chapter I've read so far, I've gone, oh, I think there's a few things I really need to tap into here and I really need to work on as a person going through it.
(25:58):
One of the things just coming back to was the cultural aspect of things. Because my son and daughter, both going out with people who have Greek and Italian strong cultural background and what they and their partner are finding out is how this impacts their life. And it does an enormous way. When I was reading that, I thought, wow, this is something that they need to look at and suss out and work out for themselves moving forward, what values they hold together as a team and what values, because they're massive. I thought that was a wonderful section too, to have there
Helen Robertson (26:35):
That really speaks to, yeah, we talk about that in the second chapter. I think
Kate Mason (26:40):
Couples, the
Helen Robertson (26:41):
Couples base camp, really that blueprint for your relationship. And that means looking at all the different parts of life, whether it's other people other than the relationship duo, children, finances, all these different domains in life, and what are we coming in already with? And that's often the assumptions, the attitudes that we have, which is cultural, which is based in our family of origins and so on. And we have this kind of automated way to respond to things when we need to work out, how do we want to do it as a couple?
Shahn Sorekli (27:21):
Yeah, people generally coming in with the assumption that this is what we did, this is right. It worked for our family, and it's really hard to let go of that, but there's actually multiple truths going on in the situation, and you're both bringing a culture from your families, and that can be more diverse when there's literally a different kind of national culture if you like. But even if it's similar backgrounds, you're still bringing two different family cultures. But we talk about in the couples base camp, the need to make the third culture, if you like. It's like what you two agree on to bring
Kate Mason (27:56):
Together
Shahn Sorekli (27:57):
And create for your family rather than forced values. And you could adopt the value of your partner, but it can't be forced into what has to be kind of agreed.
Kate Mason (28:07):
I agree with that. I think it's wonderful. Now, I'm going to have to let you go. I could talk to you for hours. I love chatting to you. This is such interesting information and it is just fabulous. Where can everyone find you? Your book, your website for your work and your app, and where is your app?
Shahn Sorekli (28:27):
So you can find our app on Google Play or the iStore, just type in my love, your love. Similarly, if you are worried about remembering all of this, you can remember my Love your love.com or eight love links.com because both websites will give you links to the book and the app. So feel free to find us there. But you can also email us at hello at my love your love.com, or if you're interested in couples therapy, it's info at Dr. Moin psychology dot comu.
Kate Mason (29:00):
We'll put all of those in the show notes.
Shahn Sorekli (29:02):
It's too many, too many,
Kate Mason (29:04):
Sorry. Well send them to us and they'll be in our show notes. So that's a lot. That's a lot.
Shahn Sorekli (29:09):
Sorry, I should simplify the book. You can find on Amazon Booktopia anywhere. You can buy a book, you can find the eight love links. Just put in the eight love links, send out one of our surnames and then it'll come up. All our website's fine too.
Kate Mason (29:24):
Yeah, fabulous. There's so much for our listener to take away from this chat. And for myself, I'm going to go back and have a little look at relationships, and I know that people are going to be thinking about you guys a lot longer after this podcast finishes, so thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with us.
Shahn Sorekli (29:42):
It's been our pleasure. Thank
Helen Robertson (29:43):
You. Yeah, thanks for your insightful questions. We really appreciate
Shahn Sorekli (29:46):
It. We really appreciate it being on the show. It's been really lots of fun. Thank you for me too.
Kate Mason (29:52):
See you.
(30:01):
Wow, what a great episode. So much to talk about. I could have actually chatted to Helen and Shahn for hours. And if you're anything like me, you are now rethinking your relationship homework. And before we go, there are three ways to take in today's insights and actually use them. First of all, download the My Love Your Love App and turn date night into relationship gym time. Think of it like a workout, but for your connection, there are no sweat bands required, just your phone, your partner, and maybe a glass of wine. Try asking each other, is there something that I've carried from the past that's still showing up in our relationship? Now remember, these conversations can be really big. So take your time, start small and give each other space and time to really listen. And then whether it's planning a trip or starting a project or just making time for weekly check-ins, having shared goals really keeps you connected and future focused.
(31:01):
And I have to tell you, after recording this episode, Paul and I went out to dinner and we had the best eight Love Links chat ever. We realized there were a few links we'd actually been totally neglecting and just having an open conversation made us both feel really connected, refreshed, and actually kind to each other. And believe me, that kindness factor actually makes a difference when you've been in a relationship for a long time. Words like, please and thank you, I really not on the radar anymore. So please don't underestimate what a little reflection and a good meal can actually do. And hey, if you've got a friend or family member who might just need to work on a few love links the one, share this episode with them. No judgment, just a gentle nudge toward connection. And that's it from me today. Go out there, love it a little deeper, and if it's easier for now, just be a little kinder.
(31:59):
Please feel free to message me and let me know how it goes. You might be pleasantly surprised. Thank you for listening to Parenting and Personalities. If you enjoyed this episode, would love it if you could leave a rating and a review that would help others learn about this podcast. If you are interested in discovering more about you and your family's personality types, you'll find my book, who is this Monster Store, treasure My House on Booktopia or Amazon. If you have an episode idea, please send a note to the personality coach@gmail.com. Many thanks to our producers at Stories and Strategies, and we'll see you next time.