PWCA: Goran Dimiskovski

You know, there are multiple ways to start an episode. And of course when I think of bringing out a new episode, the whole idea is to try and make it exciting, Try and make it very enriching for the audiences, get them captivated from the word go. I mean, all of these marketing strategies and everything that's out there on Internet, how to how to make your podcast successful, how to make an episode really do well. How to choose up your guests.

And like, there are multiple algorithms to do things right. But there's one algorithm to do things right which has kind of been there since ages, and that is by speaking out the truth, unfiltered and unhindered. Information sharing has always won the day. And this episode is a perfect example of how having a heartful conversation, a conversation without limits, can add so much value to the topic that you're

discussing. And what gives me pure joy about this one is that it comes straight from within the person who is basically running the show for when it comes to racing paragliders. Today we're going to have a chat with Goran Dimaskovski. The. President of Paragliding World Cup Association. So today, Goran and I basically sit together and talk about what goes behind the scenes and what allows us as humans to fly

together in numbers. And not just in numbers, like in multiples of hundreds, sometimes all together, pushing the limits, pushing the speed bars, chasing the glory and trying to get on the podium. But honestly, if you ask me, I'm not that experienced in podcasting just yet, but from whatever I've had, I'm yet to come across a guest so open and so bold and so truthful about whatever he's bringing on the table. So without further ado, I'm not

going to spill any beans here. This one is a gem that you shouldn't be missing if you are like me and you like racing paragliders up high in the sky. When we all start our quest to touch the sky with glory, I have to bring out a disclaimer here. Not the best audio quality because of some technical glitches, but hands down one of the best contents out there that I've made so far. Keeping in tune with our plans of covering PWCS. This is episode #3.

The first one was the first time ever pre World Cup organized in a new location in India other than beer. The second one we went all the way to the continent of Africa where one of the most amazing tour guides in our sport had organized a pre World Cup in Kenya. Wings Among Wildlife was a theme of that one, and Nikolai told us how to navigate the skies of Kenya while enjoying the usual safari and the holiday. And this time we keep it simple.

We get to find out all that you need to know on what goes behind running the show and how and why we should stay excited about what's coming. Talking about staying excited, I must mention the next episode in the series of paragliding World Cup is going to come from a pilot who has pushed the limits for as long as she knows it. And she comes across to share her stories about how she navigated life and yet managed to build a successful carrier racing paragliders.

And with that being said, it's time to tune in and share some knowledge in the world of paragliding world. CUPS. Gordon Deniskowski, thank you so much for doing this. Welcome to paragliding apps. We're so happy to have you here. Pleasure is all mine, as usual. All right. Go on. So just for our audiences, you know, what do you do and why do you do it? Well, running the World Cup is quite interesting thing to do in life because it's kind of a

small escape from the reality. But on the other hand, diving into parallel reality I can see because with the development of the sport, running the sport association and being in the focal point of all happenings is paragliding basically is getting a very serious activity covering many aspects of day-to-day life and covering many responsibilities. Because what we are doing now is reflecting on thousands of

people. In the early days it was not that complex, but I can say that these days what we are doing is moving literally tons of people around the globe. All the financial responsibilities, all the safety responsibilities, all the sport responsibilities, everything is so complex that yeah, it's getting a serious activity and a job. I can imagine. I mean you're making hundreds of human fly together and and not

just fly like you race together. It sounds very exciting and I can only imagine the amount of responsibility you have your hands. But Goran, if I have to you know, give our listeners some idea if you can tell a little bit about yourself because we see that you are one of the longest serving presidents of PWCA. So how did this aspect come into your life and basically how did you grow into and yourself along the the association into into

something as successful as this? Well, that was not so exciting story. It's fairly regular life path. Let's say I was starting to fly quite early in the 90s, early 90s. My first flight was in 91, but really starting to get some knowledge and some progress in 92 and quite interesting in this sport, competition was alive from day one. Even those days with all these first attempts in the late 80s and a little bit in the

beginning of the 90s. It was not something that cooked for too long before competitions got into the focal point. It they became the place when you can really materialize your dream of flying. Competitions were the place when you can learn, when you can see the latest advancement, when you have these stars, 5 stars all over the place. So early in my days, my focus on flying. I was competitive by myself by those days anyway, because I

grew up in aviation. I was very lucky to start quite in my early childhood days with the Missionary Club in Macedonia country. It was very vivid organization with many activities. That was maybe the golden era of aero clubs worldwide. With all the financements from the state, with all the support, it was fairly attractive for

everyone. So I went to aero modeling, then a little bit of parachuting, tailplays, motor flying, all sorts of flying and then finally paragliding became something that is so independent and very attractive to me. And I said I was competing already in some of previous sports. So it was a natural way for me to to be interested in comps and even those days paragliding World Cup at that age was most advanced. The people being involved, they were the ones.

So it was not some kind of bunch of Renegades improvising something that was more attributed to the to the FBI those days because if they were, they were applying the concept of what they learned from the other comps. It was over regulated. It was not focused on the pilot himself. It was a much wider focus on national collapse, on glory, on ceremonies, on flags. Trying to sell this popularity to the world Paranoid Cup did something totally different. It was focused on the pilot,

which was me in my own eyes. It was the place to be when you can really materialize your dreams and since 94, very early I became a a member of World Cup but it was just a not really vital but by today's standard it could be vital because I've never attended the World Cup. I have never been there, but I was a member. You know, you pay a fee and you have all these materials coming to you and step by step, step by

step by step. In 99 I I joined my first World Cup in in in Slovenia. One of the best parts of those days when March is to organize that one, we were accepted and refused in the last moment because it was overbooked. So it was a big disappointment and that's how it started. So my attraction to World Cup was basically because it was a true competition structure that I was looking into.

Wow. You know this reminds me very simply of the of the saying where there's a builders from what I see three decades of experience you have definitely chosen the right path and come so far and of course are helping us show, I mean showing the light for all of us to to you know go out and chase the glory ourselves.

Goran, just out of curiosity when you say that you know PWCA was more pilot focused and it was more like you know performance focus rather than adding on to the glamour and all of that what what does a typical day at PWCA look like? I mean, I'm not saying of course it changes as the seasons and times, but usually what is the direction of this association like how do you guys plan out your workings and what keeps you guys busy? You know, World Cup is a kind of

pilots association. So it's by it's the tutor, by its mortality of existence, it's fairly loose organization, you know, so you have members that are collected around common idea and it's a French based association. The French law is very liberal. It's updating quite early 19/03, so it's not a century old. So this frame is giving us an opportunity to act in a quite flexible manner and that is reflecting in the day by day work and how we are doing it.

So what what is typical for us is that in in the widest frame we are collecting the input from the competing pilots through the system selection. We have a direct exposure to the best pilots in the world. So over the season, over the years, doesn't matter. You're collecting all these official, unofficial, all sorts of input and you are structuring them within the internal steering body that we have, which is the part of the world committee.

This is a structure that can be up to 13 people. In this moment we are 10. This is international based, of course. There are people from all over the world, from Argentina to United States to Switzerland. Doesn't matter. Diversity, basically. Yes, here's diversity. Diversity, also in the terms of background, All of us are pilots and all of us went through serious challenges competition wise. But some of us are organizers. Some of us are more, let's say,

administrators. Some of us are just pure competition pilots, Plenty of profiles. So one typical day is based on communication in between me because I'm also doing the event management from being a President of the World Cup. So I have the global vision of the near term future as well as the long term future. By near term, future is something that is going about three years ahead. And by long term future is something that is going about, say five to six years upfront.

So you know, on my daily, in my daily work, I'm communicating. The greatest amount of communication is going with our secretary, Laura Seppet. Miss Miss Laura Seppet, yes, she's our main administrator. She's doing all the work related to to selections, to related to payments, to organizing, communication with the pilots. Well, on my side I'm doing something different. I am more into envisioning the season direct negotiations with organizers.

Selecting them, provided them with the basic info, providing them with all the requirements that we need or what they should ask from us, You know, this kind of thing. So this is like a global picture. On the, On the more practical note, it's about 3:00 to 4:00 working hours per day for me, a little bit more if not much more for for Laura, for our secretary, because she needs to process what I just throw to her and then all, all of the system

is, you know, very transparent. We shared with this World Cup committee, as I said, for some kind of final approval or for some kind of synchronizing if needed. And it goes like that day by day. So it's quite never ending story. I can imagine, and it makes me want to thank you again for taking time from such hectic schedule and sharing the story with our listeners. That does mean a lot to us. Just want to mention it again, moving on.

You know, I've heard this from a lot of pilots like competing is is kind of a human trait. Like we, we like competing and even before PWCA came into existence, there were some modalities in place which which allowed people to race and compete inside in the air. I'm just curious what basically was the need to to to create the existence of considering that there were already options. Why? Why did we? A lot of pilots who really want to push felt like creating PWCA and making it happen.

You know, this is an interesting story, but nothing sensational, basically. Just kind of it's, it's kind of let's say a needed evolution that came through revolution. I mean this is the the simplest definition here.

So that was something that was truly needed, but it was not happening, you know, and I already mentioned that in the beginning and the problem is that in the beginning of the sport World Cup was kind of missing or it was somehow in the air because you know this impulse to create it was generated in the Central European countries, in the in the developed countries from like Switzerland, Italy, Germany, these kind of of places, they have a a strong

sports structure anyway. So it was like a natural development for somebody practicing the the sport to have this will or to have this aim to practice the sport in a in a well organized structure. So this is nothing to do with paragliding particularly. This is just a way of thinking and way how whoever is dedicated enough to certain activity would

like to perceive himself. So this needs to be seen as a true sport is doing something in the in the in a real structure which is well organized which is on the topic which is not this this focused let's say with some kind of trivial non necessary things was very alive among people in those days. So the the generation of stars that we know these days like I don't know Hediger or all these people from other days post calls made plenty of them including Mr. Jean.

Plenty plenty of people. French guys Olivia Neff all these guys you know they were around here with some others of course that maybe they're not coming to my mind. So these people were just somehow unsatisfied with the with the way how sport is presented, practiced and

organized. So it was like a small push within this pilot group with this let's say well educated or or well motivated pilot to those days to create a structure that will be truly dealing on a on a simple professional enough focused way with the execution of having competitions. So that's how it started. So it started in these few countries. It was not really let's say super successful in the beginning the the, the, the environment and the motivation was on the high level since day

one. But of course the tools, the knowledge, the way how, for example the the way how they choose places, the way how they choose. Organizers would be, let's say questioned these days like for example, like say it's a kind of dark spot in history. Is that even on the first year of doing this professional super, they had the fatality unit, they went to Owens Valley, which was the final of this unit.

It was the most important event. But choosing such a place for final in those days, with those wings, with those known pilots, every bit of knowledge was over optimistic. It was, I don't know exactly, but I believe it was a reflection for King Lighting because it was a famous destination. It was something that everybody is dreaming of and of course it was too challenging for for the

people participating. And that event some somehow through shade in the in the early beginnings of of the Parliament World Cup. But they recovered quite fast and then with few between few years, especially after the the circuit was established in a way and especially when the tandem of Sergei Murillo and the Christian Quest, the French guys, they came into the management, including Laura

Sepide that I already mentioned. So this structure, it was running well, but these three people truly, truly moved the World Cup to the most advanced organizing party in the Arabic world. Just want to take the names of those 3 legends who actually made it happen. Can you please repeat that for our listeners? Yes I believe that in the order of importance. I mean this is, I mean it's it's not that I'm taking side but it's it's it's it's difficult to to separate among these three

people. So in my my eyes for sure I have my preferences personal but for the sake of history there are three of them. Are equally important because Xavier Murillo he's he started quite early with paragliding. He was luckily A photographer so he documented everything. So we here I have in my eyes here I have literally more than 10,000 slides from from his all of that material is hanging

around. You know all sorts of photos from World Cups, from world based paragliding from monitoring all sorts of everything. So and that guy was truly living this world bringing some experiences from from other sports. As I said he was quite involved into all penis and doing some kind of sport events. Even before paragliding he was very focused. He pushed the because you know this in paragliding in those days it was quite a strong localized influence. You know, doesn't matter it was

too international. There was always this Central European countries pushing towards themselves. So he's French by the way. So he he was the first one to realize the importance of truly international. So he was the one who truly pushed World Cup out of European boundaries. Honestly not with some you know pretending doing it. And the the the way the the structure of the rules, the structure of the system that we have now, the Super final concept of all those things are

inventions. Of that particular person, the second one is Christian Quest. He's also French man. He's he was the president of the World Cup in those years, but that was like one part of his job. He brought to the World Cup the GPS verification and he was the one who was constantly, constantly pushing for technical innovations. So that's why I mean in that's why World Cup was at the forefront in those days with with scoring with verification instruments.

There was this famous MLR instrument that was developed in France where pretenders were directly participating in producing the 90s first GPS unit that is dedicated to part of lighting that is now like every single manufacturer having you know. So all these things came together and not to be forgotten. I have mentioned a few times Laura Sekat she's one of the most important persons in the in the in the World Cup.

You know this is kind of person that is such a driving force, such a responsible person, such a willing to keep this communique going on that since a very long time she is, you know, absorbing all the positive and negative feedback, do working with it, preparing the correct information for us and for the pilots and like secretary, but she's much more than that. She was. She's present since long, long

time and significant. Oh, well, I mean, I, I feel blessed to have someone like Laura in our sport, you know, with that kind of driving force and actually making things better for every other pilot like me and and out there like listeners. So great, Thank you for that recap. You know, I think it was very essential to get an idea about what basically went behind the making of such a successful organization. But this brings me to a point, Cora, I'm very curious.

You know, like past 5-10 years we have seen the sport kind of leap and bound in in various directions. You know there's like I can Fly is going massive. Manufacturers are putting in a lot of their resources there. The research and development is going there. We we had Mads synagogue the Danish guy come up with his own league saying that I'm going to let out the open class lighters compete themselves and now we have SRS which is coming in with

you know two liners. So there are people who are very motivated to kind of push things in their own direction and and find their own ways to fulfill their curiosity. But when it comes to pure aviation or pure fun, do you think paragliding has or is evolving in the right direction or is it basically kind of you know, heading as per where the money is basically because hiking play is a lot about money and the glamour and all of those ideas.

So what's your take on that? I mean, this is a very general question and could be applied to any sport. You know, it's not the key point to understand these days, and I'm saying this with full responsibility, you know, is to to finally understand that paragrading is nothing exclusive, it's just another sport and it's just rolling on the basics like whatever is rolling these days. There is nothing specific or nothing extraordinary in the way how one sport is executed to the 21st century.

The concept is same because if the sport is considered a self development then for sure you can find it in any kind of sport. If it's considered as a business opportunity, of course it is because majority of sport needs equipment. Equipment is always commercial and this is pushing the sport into commercial sphere. If it's considered, I know as doesn't matter which aspect you take. Whatever you have in parliament, you have it. Whatever sport on the planet.

The problem that we are still it's underestimated in providing is the profile of people and the psychological profile how we are approaching the sport. Usually the people are approaching the sports from certain affiliation towards some activity. But there are many other factors like the future, the potential, the is it sufficiently professional so I could commit my entire life to it and many many other things. In paragliding all those doors

are open. Maybe not that the level like in the other sports, but the key point is that we are still we are getting majority of participants and this approach is a life through long long long period of their sportive life through simple affiliation to something. So it's even today the emotional part of joining paragraph is much stronger than whatever parameter is important for

joining the sport. You know when you're joining the tennis this day when you have a kid and when you're joining the tennis the the perspective is trace, it's clear there's no too much of variation left or right. So you know what is amateur development, what is semi professional, what is professional, what is teaching to be into administration or to go into professional schools for for trainers or for some staff

doesn't in parameting. Those things are still not mature enough despite the fact that we should be to arenas because they're smaller sports, much smaller sports that are much more structured. So to to precisely answer your question, all these deviation or all deviation, all these directions better, all these directions that we have in our sport are totally understandable. You know people are looking for some kind of personal to to to project themselves into something that they like.

So I can have a very good platform. It's truly good platform because this is the in my personal opinion and I believe this is something that is overlooked into a presentation that I can fly and in understanding of I can fly, I can fly out of all the barrier blinding they managed to connect the true sportsman profile of a true

sportsman with flying. Because you cannot practice, hike and fly on the high level, especially these days if you are not truly defined as a sportsman, which means strong, sufficiently strong, disciplined, no alcohol, no drugs, no no, all this crap that is poison the sport these days. So this connection is attractive.

But the problem with my perspective is despite the growth I can see the limitations and limitations are always the same in paragbiting and I can find the sufferer of it the most which is dispersed type of competition. You know hacking flag will always attract people because as I said it's a self challenge and self challenging. Sport is the ultimate driving force apart from some financial side effects in highly paid sports.

So this self challenging will always be around and people will join it to prove worthy to themselves. This is also the core of racing, you know people are racing not only to win over others, this is just a psychological element how you prove yourself sufficiently worthy in what you're doing. So this is something that is very important to understand. And then this kind of this kind of, you know, we saw that with

acro a long time ago. It's over, this is over, that is over, this is cross country is over. Acro is now the thing and then acro shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink to exclusivity that is you know it's and how to say it's it's so minimal that it's almost, I don't know it's it's it's kind of paragonal disaster that acro shrink to what is it today you know taking into consideration the effort and potential. You know, so you know this hype

is going all the time around. You have the same with accuracy. It was that was the ticket to Olympic sport that is this, this is the thing. It is where you have spectators and then you go to accuracy competition. There are no spectators because it's endlessly slow, you know, it's the competition format. It's endless slow. Tonight we have these hundreds of people participating.

But that hype that this is the thing just shrinking down, you know So it is happening all the time because we are addressing you to you to assist it in in maturity we are addressing the height of parabolic in taking something from something else. If now we have development of I don't know as you mentioned competitions with two liner serial class virus. So this is you can see this on the on the Facebook you can see

this on the forums. There are always some people saying, I think this is it, this is it what? This is just another form of competition when you compete against somebody else to prove yourself better than himself. As simple as that. You know, it's like, no, you're going to fishing and you catch a bigger fish than the guy next to you. So it's wrong to think that this or that or whatever in paragliding will take over compared to some other branch of the sport.

If we are doing a good job, there will be people motivated to do this or do that, you know, it's so simple. So in reality what I think is that all these directions of development are healthy because through experimenting you will find finally what is proven to be worthy or what is not. Because otherwise it's the only hypothetical and I cannot see danger into having, I don't know, something disappearing.

But the only thing that I can see as danger is the the spread of fonts in too many directions, because people are still majority of competition should be financed by serve parties, not by the participant himself. And if you have too many of directions that you need to invest, this is this could be a problem. But that's a revolution. So it will select, I think, the best sports and best people by

itself. Wow, I love your perspective and how realistically you explained all of it and it does resonate with me as well. You know that when when when humans try to push the limit everyone will explore their curiosity in their own intimate manner and it eventually is helping us grow and hopefully, fingers crossed you know it

brings out something good. But yeah if I have to ask you and and this is this comes from curiosity from me but then that when when I started flying competing has been in like yeah, I love competing, I want to compete. So if there's a there's a newbie pilot and you have cross country paralyzing rocking your world, can you please explain us what are the options to go out and chase racing? Like you know, what's what's FAI, what's SRS, what's PWCA, what's Continental championships like?

If you can just briefly tell us what is the road map a 0 hour pilot can take towards going ahead and achieving glory on the podium. Hello, this is a good one and I would like to make it comprehensive but most likely it's impossible so but I will try for sure. So progress in paragliding these days is.

I mean it's the road map is fairly straightforward and easy but it's unfortunately there are many obstacles because this logical progress of pilot is manipulated by many structures and many organizations so it's not that nature anymore. So there there, there are barriers that are artificial and unfortunately someone who is truly committed usually especially if he's not from countries like I mentioned before with with a well developed structure like especially France or Switzerland.

I will say because this one are still taking a proper care of developing a proper sportsman in the in the paragliding sense of word. If you are not into this region of the world, then you're usually exposed of some kind of domination of schools and schools doesn't want, I mean. Independence. Yeah, I know what you mean. I feel it. I don't. I don't want to be. I mean it's honestly it's the

truth. I as a student have faced the problem so and we are all about being being honest and knowledge here and so it doesn't doesn't harm. Yeah. Please go ahead. Schools would like to have a constant flow of students being around, being the basis of their school or shop or whatever they are lending. This one doesn't matter.

So this is kind of progressing, moving from that controlled area is basically losing customers and it's quite serious in certain countries, especially for example in Germany and this, this, this behaviour model is basically preventing people of getting right perspective on things. It's not so bad, you know, I mean I would like to say this is quite good because and not everyone is fit or tailored for

competition lifestyle. Somebody is perfectly happy with club level lifestyle, but many, many pilots we are losing in the competition hand because of this happening around. Then if you are lucky enough to go through the system and if you have enough enough stamina to to to push yourself beyond the boundaries that are around you. So then the typical way how to progress is to start with some cross country flying. I mean, doesn't matter is it individual or is it within some

control structure. But cross country flying that is let's say ambitious when you're pushing your boundaries because it is like learning the alphabet and then learning the alphabet will give you enough tools to enter competition first of all. So it's this is the the key point entering competitions because you can spend all of your life flying without not entering a single comp. And why it's important to enter comps. This is this is a bit of strange

phenomenon in paragliding. The competitions in paragliding, especially average to good ones. They are the the best environment for flying because their their entire structure around the single pilot. When you are for example living let's say in some place that is not very developed, you have million question Marks and you have million of things that you need to figure out yourself. Starting from the logistics, starting from metal or starting from what is allowed, what is

not allowed. Airspace is million of of of things that could be overwhelming because all these things are just distracting you from doing what you want. Then you go to a competition that is proportional to your skill and to your level that you will not be exposed to some crazy advanced stuff. If you're noise pilot, you need to position yourself where you belong and then what you will see there. It will be an organized structure when there is someone thinking about every aspect of

your day. When to start, when to be there, when to have a briefing, when to to open the window. What is the metaphor today? To pick you up, To give you food, To give you all the informations, To take care about injuries, to take care about the pet staff, to take care about good staff, To give you an advice? You know, suddenly if you are in that environment, you will improve on your progress by multiple times because simply you are practicing the sport. When everything is organized,

yeah, this is the benefit. This is the benefit of low profile comps. You know, this is the benefit about from the serial glass comps, nothing else. You know because competition as I said before is a activity that will personally change. Challenge the pilot himself. No one who is truly competitor will stay at the level of ENC gliders. No one. It's not about the marketing, it's not about who wants what, because competing with yourself is, is is a push towards

perfection and perfection. It's difficult to be satisfied simply as a competitor. Then you know that there is something more demanding, more attractive, more performance, more, more, more, many, many more. And that's why there is no, there is zero risk about this. What I said before about losing this or that because if you would like to achieve part of the excellence it is only one

way. And that way is to become an independent pilot, to become someone who knows how things are done, who is self confident, who is able to to to fly hundreds of kilometers to fly many hours in. The shortcut to reach them is basically competing on high level. This is it's so you know this is really important to be properly understood. The competing in the World Cup, competing in category one. This is not the ultimating.

This is like a school for you to become so good pilot that you can do things on yourself in such a perfection and and this learning curve will be much shorter than if you're trying to do that by yourself. So the next day when you have this fantastic day and then you have this weekend for your work without the family, when you go to hill and when you have this epic one one day in a life opportunity, then you go, I don't know, Kisha in Brazil and you have this 600 kilometers

record flight. Every single pilot who is, I mean, maybe to be too optimistic to say or too too glamorous to say, but every single pilot who's important, he went through some kind of competition shaping, you know, because this

is the way how you really progress. 100% and I think it's so easy to resonate with that because when you compete with yourself that is when you become a better version of yourself and and of course as you said competition entry and competitions is basically trying to push the limits first from within and then with with people around you.

But you know I I think the best out on on the structure of comps because as as like we know that there's FAI and then there's PWCA and then there's SRS and then there's other things. So if you can briefly just let us know what are the options for for like what are all of these things and how do you understand what they are basically? OK, let's start in the inverse way. The weakest thing in our sport is administration, You know, this is and that's what you're

saying. Now this question is, I'm having this question quite often in different forms. It is really important to to know that this question would be unnecessary if the administration was like it should be for such a developed sport. You know the administration. I when I first I would like to address the FAI which is International Federation of Air Sports based in Lausanne in Switzerland.

A very serious organization which is the the most important thing that is not well known is that FAI is Olympic recognized federation. Only handful of federations in the world are Olympic federations or Olympic recognized. So basically the sport is governed by the FAI. They have an authority on that. It's given to them by it's not they didn't take it. It is given to them by the Olympic Committee basically.

So in the ultimate level, FAI is the organization that is governing World Championships and this is the only only organization in the world that could grant the title of world champion. So when you win, whatever else you can be, whatever, but you cannot be a world champion.

You can be a World Cup champion. You can be dissident, but you cannot simply it's it's like a trademark and it's it's exclusivity and this is the the most important thing and this is the most glorious thing in in the terror sport and it's not well known, which is the failure of administration, because this is the ticket. For many top sportsmen, access to the funds, to the government's fund, to the Olympic committees in their national countries.

So to answer precisely your question on the top of the pyramid should be it's not good, but it should be the world championship in whatever discipline paragraph, because this is the place when you are getting a champion, when you are

getting the best in the world. So these events, these events are called Category 1 events and the sub organization FAI that is governing this is CIBL which is commissioned within the FAI which is working specifically for paragliding because the FAA is as many commissions looking for arrow modeling for ballooning for what Cibl is governing the the the paragliding sport. So it came landing as well. So in CIBL we are we are organizing category once and

vice president there. So I'm quite familiar with the topic as well. So category one, Worlds Europeans, Pan Americans or Par Asians doesn't matter are the places that those are the costs that are should be on the top of the pyramid. This system dissolves lower into category two events. Category Two events are all the

others that are CFL recognized. In professional World Sanctioned events, when you apply with your application, you are basically giving a guarantee that you will apply certain standards. So category two is nothing more than basically a binding correlation in between two parties that the rules established by Seattle will be followed by the organizer. There is a fee for that which is modest but doesn't matter. It's organized and then with getting a sanctioning.

Simply you are recognized as organizer of the comp under certain standards and rules in this category two events. In this category Two events. All the events that you know that are good enough are category two including World Cups including SRS, including whatever. All of these events they fit into the profile of category two events sanctioned by Cibl. So now basically the story ends here. So you have category one and category two events. This is the this is the

structure and this is the cost. So in category 2, events organizers are basically very free to use the rules in a way they see appropriate. Basically there is a precise line in the rules saying that category one which is world's and Continental championship rules should be followed by category two or as far as appropriate, which is giving you quite loose format so you can do whatever you want. So now there are many sub organizations that are doing

what they're doing. World Cup is the most important and for sure most developed and biggest one and with longest experience into this. So we established the structure totally independent and we are truly working on our independence through from CIVL and from the FAI because this is the healthiest way how the sport would not be misled into the mistakes that first of all led to formation of the World Cup 30

years ago. So independence is very important for the World Cup. So we have our own rules that are quite often a model for Category 1 rules because category one is 1 per year and World Cup is 10 times per year. So there is much more place to practice. We have much more knowledgeable base to to get some technical stuff for formulas whatever and we have much more experienced field to experiment with. So then we have a pre World Cup concert which is 1520 events per year that you can also do

things. So basically World Cup is the driving force before behind whatever is happening in parabolic world and this is the you know because whatever you take from the way how it's scored, from the way how it's monitored. We were The Pioneers in the in the life tracking for sure the first life tracking was applied in the European Championship in Austria. I mean at that level but stop there.

And then the entire development thanks to huge commitment from Flying Master, our partner in the World Cup we develop it to the levels that are today, You know it's it's state-of-the-art technology you know. So this is the importance of the World Cup. It's the rest on the other hand is a new system of pumps, a new organization.

The the main difference that is important to understand is the World Cup is an association, which means it's an open structure when people can can directly contribute to decision

making. While SRS is a centralized let's say privately run and owned organization and it's it's it's a different structure and it's differently based but the way how it's executed its copy paste from the roadside which is cycles of four or five events during the year and then final or or doesn't matter how they're calling it.

So basically this is just another form of of sport class competition because competition, sport competitions everywhere around the world, many of them so and then there is many spin offs. So there is a paragraph in Grand Prix, the Polish Castro organizing this, which is very similar to to SRS. It's another fairly successful modality how for this intermediate level of events, serial events and yeah, more or less this is the structure.

So you have this basic structure, category one, category two events, and then you have these different types of organizations and organizers that are fitting into that structure by creating their own identity. Got it. So so just to sum it up basically FAM is sitting at the top of the pyramid and and define like who gets to crown the world champion glory and and FAI is not-for-profit as well you know that's the they are being run solely for the sake sport and then that is category

one. Once you go one tier down in category 2, you have these allied organizations which can be for profit as well as non profit. And then these are these organizations allow people to to come in and have their first competitions or experience what competition structure is like. And and that can be SRS, that can be PWCA, that can be you know, the other one, the Grand Prix as you said or even maybe whatever maths the Danish guy

started. So all of these things come in category two under all right, makes sense, makes sense. So basically when we talk about category two, is there the civil is still defining the rules. Basically is is there a watchdog sitting up top and saying this is how it is supposed to, it will be run or is like this is how it is supposed to be run by you do your own thing kind of like what's? Yes. You know, this is, yeah, it's

it's coming in circles. You know, as I said, administration is the weakest point. So CIBL is is a very have to say very positive structure. You know it's a it's a structure of the concept and how it is executed in the especially in the last 10 years maybe something like this it's like it should be. So this governing of the category two and one events in general is is done in a fairly successful way.

It's luckily CABL followed the concept of World Cup and then about 6-7 years ago we or they does a veteran part of it. So maybe I should say we to avoid confusion with the World Cup. I was a day so agreed to have a permanent employee. So this is Miss Elena for one of

us competition coordinators. So now they have someone employed and paid to run the same stuff that Laura is doing for us, which is governing and controlling and following all the event sanctioning payments, following the rules. We have a platform which is called EMS which is. So you can see that on the cavilcomps.org when this platform is, I mean Elena is a moderator there.

So it is kind of her baby with our investment and you know so all these things are making Seattle a perfect controlling body. But of course but but the amount of job and amount of malfunctions is it's it's enormous. You know because for sure many, many events are small local town hill events. You know, 20 people that would like to have some kind of event somewhere, they need some kind of officialized form for sponsorship, for whatever. So they are applying for

sanctioning. They're not so motivated, they're not so serious, they're not so ambitious. And then those events, for sure they have quite flexible rules. But in general, luckily due to the tools that we have in Seattle like the Paris and the world blocking system, there are many filters how these kind of events are not influential for the entire picture of the of the competition scene.

You know, so they're kind of by the system, they're kind of discarded in a way maybe not really discarded, but let's say they're dissolved into the mass of higher quality events. So they're becoming insignificant, you know. So if I say that CA will have a few, I mean that have a massive control, it would be over ambitious. It has a certain amount of control. It has a certain amount of projection, the power and to following events as we go higher in the pyramid.

If you go towards more important events like big national opens or like 3 events for the world for Europeans, for category ones, so then this control and this influence of Seattle is growing and it's becoming a crucial element. And then in category one is ultimate because in category one events CLL could stop the event with declare it and call it.

I mean it has a full control. So in other words, in simple I mean this is an elaborated answer but in simple words CLL has a serious influence and when you're applying for category two it should be followed. The rules are defined, the variations are they are existing, but they are somehow still usually within some acceptable means. Got it. Just to clarify on one point, category one are the big ones. Category two is basically a blanket acceptance for every competition that is supposed to

go under civil. So be it PWCA, be it SRS, be it drop free, if they want to go under civil, they will go under category. Exactly. Awesome. OK, great. I'm very curious about the licenses. You know, I've heard a lot about sporting license and then there's IPPI and then there's Appi, you know, doing their own thing and of course the insurance and everything that comes with it. We have seen Gavin talk on his podcast about, you know, how important it is to carry the

right insurance. So what like I think there are three big licenses that we're talking about right now. One is APPI, one is IPPI and the other sporting license. Which license gives you access to category one and how to basically navigate that landscape? OK, so now we're entering the tricky zone when when there is, I mean or maybe it's better to say intentionally Gray zone not by myself but by the by the existing system. And what I will say it will be seen as fairly controversial by

seats to people. But my my my position on this is well known in any kind of forum when I'm around and when I'm asked I'm given the same answer because it's it's quite matured opinion. I worked. I'm working with this since extremely long time. I have a sufficient resources and information to to to to know exactly what I'm saying. Whatever, whatever license apart from FAA sporting license is existing is first of all

unnecessary. It's partial manipulation, you know in a in a bad sense of the word. Now in a positive sense, it's manipulating people in organizations and it's only those other types of licenses that exist existing because as I said in the beginning, because of the weakness of CML or FAI to make a correct system around the globe, This is based on a structural problem. This is not based of incapable people.

This is based on a fundamental conflict between the FA statutes and how this organization is working. Because FAI is I mean it's a little bit going away from the topic but it's important to I will try to to make it comprehensive. It's important to know that FAA basically is federation of national Arab club so national clubs organizations in in in countries so in in countries is recognized by UN for in a country and then this this organizations so-called national clubs are members of FAA.

So FAA is basically a compilation it's it's it's assume of its members not to go into many details. What is the most important thing is that when you're a national club the the main article defining your relation with FAI is that you are governing the sport on your territory word to word. So that means the nation of club of Bolivia is governing the paragon sport in their own country. So they should follow the rules

of FAI and this. But then of course if they're not following how you penalize how you you know this is this is unrepleted territory. So basically when a national club is paying fees to the FAA he's becoming customer. He's becoming a member of FAA and with buying his membership he's getting the authority of the over his territory. This is not so far away from from perhaps some failed of this is not so far away from the dark ages of human. Very true. Very true.

Development, you know so. And then when a certain national club is buying the territory, then he can do whatever they want. And then they are imposing all sorts of crap to the pilots, to the realizations regarding licenses, for example. In civilized world they're for free. In not so civilized world they're for cheap. In a brutal world they are very

expensive. So because for national club that is not well integrated into society, when you have a bunch of people that just they can see an opportunity in this, they say OK, you would like to go to the World Championship. So now you have to pay €1000 for the license. So you're not getting the license, you're not getting the license, so you're not going to the World Championship despite the fact that you have sponsors that you have money that you

have with them. So now if AI is, is is willing to support the system because it's working for them, because their goal their their their theoretical goal is the sport. But of course there is another goal to run the organization in order to run the organization with investment. Investment is coming from the national clubs and some other sources, but national clubs are primary source.

And then it's conflict of interest and it's game over, you know, So that means that certain people in certain countries doesn't matter how good they are, how loyal they are, doesn't matter they cannot get FA license. They cannot participate in cut once and this is disaster, you know, so and that goes in all possible directions. So in certain countries when the national clubs are strong, they are not giving the right people to compete in Category 2.

So it's getting even worse. So then it's a massive push towards certain people to buy licenses or to do I don't know what in order to be able to get the license. So there is a filter imposed by certain countries. So that is giving opportunity to third parties to introduce the licenses that will fulfill this gap. And certain people would like to have something in order to do something. You know, this is, this is ridiculous. You know it's. Messed up. It's messed up.

Yes, it totally messed up in reality. And you know, I'm not criticizing this like a clever one. People that are within these problems, they are all very aware what I'm saying, including the FBI including CIVO all of us, we are trying to find the solution. The solution is complex because of this because of the statutes are are defined and it's kind of a deadlock that people are not able to to go out of it.

So you know, but we can witness this in the modern world, you know, neutral flag, Olympic flag is existing in order to cover the conflicts, in order to cover the irregularities, but it's not working well. So in FA is case there is FAI flag, there is FAI. So if you're not able to get the license, your country FAI should provide the one for you because it should be a supervising power.

But then it's also not working well because when FAI is providing to someone, it is interfering with the national club and they don't want to do it. So basically that door is closed as well in a way, in a way or there are too many of obstacles in order to get the license in

that way. So back to the original question, if the AFA license is working well and it's really important to have it because it's not, it's not the document, it's very this is something that is important to be proclaimed this to really know what is it. If a license is something like paying sanction fee for category two, if a license is not how good you are, this is not proficiency license. If a license is a document, when you're taking one, you're basically admitting the rules basically.

So having the AFAI license, you're accepting the sporting code, so you know anti doping policy, fair play policy, this all all the policies, positive policies in the sports defined by the statute and you're accepting the rules under which competitions are executed. That's it. And people are manipulating this and because there is no sufficient amount of knowledge if the job of FAAA to provide sufficient knowledge to travel around the world to educate.

But due to many reasons that are happening. So in simple words, whatever it is a PPIIPPI, tomorrow it will be some other eye, doesn't matter. This is kind of vacuum filling tools. I have nothing against these people, I have nothing against their work. Furthermore, I really appreciate what they are doing because they are not one to be blamed because they found a spot that they can manifest their capabilities and they can protect themselves but. The real reason is what I just.

Got it. Now this brings me to a dilemma because the cash is king is a big problem in a lot of industries, you know, and especially when it comes to competing and and and human versus human finding reward and and all of that like cash negates that. And when we bring in technology that also of course, you know, takes away a little bit of fun. But having a sporting license is, is that enough to get you inside category two or do you need an extra document on top of it?

Because you said it's not a proficiency license, it's just the ethos and ethics and and it just fixes that. So where do Appi and IPPI licenses come in combination with Sporting license? Well, that's a question of proficiency, as you said for sure.

But then also for that there is a solution which is part of the program developed here, here to go and I, you know, I mean, if I go into details to explain all of it, I will need three days to to speak, which absolutely not not not feasible let's say, but everything that we have my, my, one of my first sentences was that there is nothing specific in paragon that everything is invented, everything is invented. You know the proficiency levels are defined for paragraph.

Everybody knows the Provence, how to enforce and then again the deadlock. Because national club is the one who needs to establish the system in their own country territory where they can provide the document to the pilot. What is their proficiency level according to the national training program. That's simple. It's it's it's FAI job through the national club. You are living in Pakistan. You are. You're having your national club. The national club is active in your country.

They have a of of instructors, whatever they have schools, they have a program. Then the student is going through the program is getting the proficiency license of the country which is defined which is this level. That level doesn't matter how it's called in which country. And then with that level synchronized with FA levels, you go to the comps. So it is FA license and proficiency license. That should give you a place

into comp, yes. I have a question and this question is coming from villain because this has happened with me. I'm an Indian pilot and I I basically you know, moved to Europe to try and chase my this whole ecosystem racing paradigms. India has the Knack Aero Club of India and that Knack has the capability to give you a sporting license, but it does not give you a proficiency license.

That's simply because they're like, we don't have a structure to figure out, but you tell us how many hours you've flown. We're all flown. And if you know some good pilots or like some some known names who can vouch for you, we'll issue you a sporting license based on goodwill. That's fine. Like, you know, if you're friends with everyone and if you're kind of keeping people smiling and happy, deal. You have a sporting license.

Now I I walk out with a sporting license in Europe and I and I walk into into Norway and I say that, hey, here's my sporting license, you have a FAI category two competition. Let me wait, they don't let me in. Now where did I go wrong and what could a person in my situation do better to have a chance to compete in a category two competition in a first world country? That's a good question and but there is answer. There is no defined answer on that because you're not the only

one. We have these experiences all over the world. It's happening every single day to any poster. Is one of the one of the countries with most frequent problems related to this what you just explained. So the correct, the correct way is to check them in, which is not really easy to correct the requirements in certain country before applying to the comp and to fulfill according to their local regulations.

That's why we have local regulations in every single event, at least now it's mandatory. With EMS, you must put them in EMS in order to have this event sanctioned in the 1st place when Someone Like You or me going to a strange country or unknown country will be informed properly. So in reality, in order to get the VPS points in order to get to be recognized within the frame of EAVL, there is nothing more that you need apart from

the sporting license. So this is the requirement that international organization is pushing forward. So that means that in many, many events and many, many events, there is no requirements for proficiency level. There is no such a thing. For example, in the World Cup, in the World Cup there is no such a thing, There is no proficiency level because you're selecting people according to their results only, there is nothing else, you know.

So that's that's that's why one very interesting approach, but unfortunately it's constantly ignored. You know this is very advanced, you know, because your piece of paper saying that you're good enough means nothing, totally nothing. When you fly in in a Gallo with 122, it's meaningless which kind of level you are or what what you're able to do. It's a specific type of experience in a specific environment. So that's why World Cup is looking at people only based on

their personal results. So in FA, in in Catigo, in in World Cup for years if FA license was not required, even today we are not insisting on it. Because the World Cup you will be accepted without license, but then you will be not ranked into VPS because in order to be ranked in the VPS in the world ranking system then you need to go through certain steps, which is understandable because it's

governed by certain authority. That authority would like to be for you to be a member of that structure, to be ranked, which is not acceptable. But in the World Cup you can compete easily. You can compete based on your own results, you know. So what your experience, just to sum it up, is regulated, most likely in the local regulations when this particular organizer asks for this and that in order

to accept you in the code. And there is no international tool, there is no international supervision that can help you overcome that obstacle if it's coming from the local rules in certain. All right, so let me understand. If you get into World Cups, you need to have performance, you need to show results. To show results, you need to compete. And to compete you need to be at the mercy of people to let you in to compete.

Because there is no such structure which says that, yes, you're allowed to compete on a fair stage. So if in the beginning of your competition career, you do not make a lot of friends and you do not meet good people along the way, it can actually hamper your progress. And there is no other way around it. Yes and no. Yes, because this is a simplified version of the truth, but no because there is a way

around. It depends of course on your mobility and your motivation and your financials of course as well, because there are options of getting AFL license if your missionary club is not failing to give it to you. But they're painful, that's the problem. It's a long process. So for example, you said you're from India and did you need a lot of friends in order to get one. So that means that if you do not have a lot of friends, you will not get one.

If you are constantly refused by your national club, you need to address Cibl or competition for Elena, which are a particular case. It will come to the CIO Bureau and CIO Bureau will decide to accept you despite the fact that you do not have because if it's seen as a malfunction of the

system. That's why I said CFL is very positive because CFL of course is bind by the rules that we are making but we are also pilots and humans like you like whoever and we also understand all these problems. So CFL Bureau has the has the power to make a Bureau decision. It's not mine or yours, it's Bureau decision.

So it's a group of 10 people 11. So do you have the power to say OK due to malfunctions of Indian National Club, Pilot B will get the license or will not get licensed but it will be scored and he will be accepted into a VPS and like this you will have your. Results. Listed in the in the VPS, yes. Yeah, now the dilemma comes. I had a sporting license from the NAC, but category two in Norway did not allow me to compete.

So if I don't, if I if I meet similar category two competition organizers in Spain or anywhere else in the beginning of my career, how do I build up my CV that tells you guys that I am good enough to be a World Cup? Like where where should I put in my? I don't like what I'm going to say, but it is. The truth. Is the only way for you is to for you? For anyone is to search environments, countries and

competitions. They do not have such a rigid, for example, I will tell you, I mean personal examples. We are with my partner Martin Jovanovskiya, raising many cops in our country in North Macedonia. But we do not have this requirements. It's not me, it's the national club. And our national club is a small structure, very positive, very, very pilot orientated. We know the problems, we know

all of this. So in our events it's only if I left that this requirement only because the events that we are organizing are are adjusted and we have full control over the events. We have a professional staff that is taking care about your level, you know.

So for me, you coming with IPP this and that or whatever, it's meaningless documents you know because what is important for me, it's truly to have you within a controlled environment where you can perform within your personal limits and not a single for me it's some kind of paper is meaningless.

But of course as you mentioned given then if it's linked with your insurance and then you must have insurance and this is when things are getting tricky, certain insurances are willing to bunch of documents in order to be given to you and so forth and so on. So basically if you ask me for people that are not able to get some proficiency documents, the correct way would be to have an FAA license, porting license and to have a proper insurance to be able to join camps around the

globe that are not that rigid regarding the proficiency document. No, true. Well thank you for that clarity because this has eaten me up for so many months and I'm sure there are other pilots who are in similar situations. So I hope this can you know, address some of that. But anyways Goran, without further ado I think we should quickly address one of the last few topics before your time runs out and I know you are on a very

tight schedule. I I I wanted to get your idea on the safety aspect and the security aspect of our of our sport because you you have been at one of the forefront you have seen the sport from the top and you've seen how it has evolved and everything. Yep. My curiosity is some from the fact that aviation and fatigue or pushing limits is is is a very risky combination. You know, like humans are not born to fly.

However, we have these, you know, machines that that allow us to do it. And when we talk about paralyzers, like paralyzers are collapsible wings which can literally go anywhere at a given moment's notice of invisible air. Paragliding World Cups have gaggles which are pretty much getting aggressive constantly. You know, people are pushing limits, hike and fly. We see people pushing the limits in in, in dangerous weather

situation, stuff like that. What ideology doesn't organize or hold when it comes to making sure everybody is there to have fun and compete but not pay the highest price? Like how? How do you, as an officer navigate that? Question. Well, it is a tricky question because whatever answer I give or whoever speak on the topic could be challenged or could be even seen as a as a as a the wrong propaganda.

But my personal principles and what I truly believe is is straightforward formula and the first of all there is no in in in whatever, in whatever competition system doesn't matter what the sport is. There is no such an system like global safety umbrella. This thing is illusion. It's not in the organizations with the with the maximum investment like Formula One and similar, you can see that they have small safety devices being introduced usually after some

kind of serious debacle usually. So that that means that the the absolute safety safety net around to run a person practicing something is illusion, it's not existent. So if you accept this then the things are getting simpler in parallel in comps. This is very well established idea and I think it's the only true safety measure in paramounting corps and especially in the World Cup. The only real safety measure is the pilot quality.

That's it, this is it. This I mean we I can speak about many other factors and for sure they will be valid. But if you would if you need to point at the one particular safety, safety factor, it's not the equipment, it's not, it's not the weather, it's not because all of these things are are predictable, all of these things you more or less you know what to expect with certain amount of of certainty, let's say. But the pilot quality is something that is straightforward.

You have high pilot quality, the risk is getting minimalized. You have a low pilot quality. The safety risk is maximized and that's you know and that's why World Cup is so meticulous, so persistent into selecting pilots based on results only. We have a letter system. It's fairly complex, but it's it's it's creating fairly narrow windows of of similar quality pilots. So it's not 12345, but in one we have 345 slots because those people are performing fairly

close to each other. It's A pilots, then B pilots, then C pilots. These letters are coming from their performance on other events. We have a system covered. So when we select pilots, you go to the letter system and then when when we finish with the letter C or D, which is the top pilots in the world, you know for sure you may have an accident or for sure you may

collision and we have them. But you know that when you have an accident it's not because the pilot was not fit to the first you know then when you that's why I'm so let's say fed up with this proficiency documents the real proficiency in modern cross country or I can fly as well. It's has nothing to do with someone telling you you're good enough.

There is no such authority you know because when you are top performing pilot in this moment in the World Cup for example, there is no authority above you to tell you how you're good enough. Who is the vet? Who? Who is that authority by which because the skill to fly aggressively, as you said in the in the company of 125 pilots around you in a fairly strong and challenging weather. This is the ultimate level. You know there is no more and you ended up there due to your

results. This is the the rest of it is like for any other sport, you know, choosing the site of course. For example, the way how we choose the latest world championship in France, it was the on the only bid for that championship. So basically there is no choosing. This is this is it. It is a very famous, famous place. It is a top organ. Everything was in place, not the place itself is challenging. And then in such a place it's in the middle of the OPS.

With such a strong weather, with such a wind pattern, with people all over the globe coming into this open, you know the only defense is the palatability, because the rest is so challenging that you cannot cover it up with any kind of safety measure. Not with the task setting. You know, because it's complicated anyway. This this reminds me of an incident Bora if you allow me you know let's let's go back to 2013 super fighter in Colombia. I was reading on cross country magazine.

I was just researching about this episode and I said there was a thermal of 19 meters per second that was being circled by a lot of competition X like triple C, like heavy Hot X. And a pilot called Yasin Sevo basically deployed and almost went in. The fire barely saved itself. I don't know the whole story because I just read a very small X. Now of course any pilot who's going into that thermal is a wanting to get get high quickly. So he wants to kind of you know push the limit.

He is in the competition. So he's definitely capable of pushing as you mentioned that there is some quality as a competitor, there are some things that you don't think about because that organizers have taken care of. And then there are other things that you have to think of which is really that is like you know am I hydrated, pushing, putting my best foot forward, am I pushing the bar enough or or like basically going out and putting in the hard work.

So when it comes to forgetting about what the organizers have dealt with and then there is a thermal like that which is out there in the open. Of course organizers can say forget it, but if you want to be the best, you cannot forget it because that is allowed by the organization and same goes to hide and fly in. Even in the Exalts like I'm not going to shy away from taking aims because I think this area

is not addressed enough. In our in our sport Excels has pilots taking off in absolutely crazy windy situations and landing in rain and all of that. But I don't blame the pilot because the pilot wants to be the best in the world or like you know when the glory. But if the organizer is allowing an aircraft and a pilot to put themselves in that situation, then where are we drawing the line between risking at all just

for the sake of fun? I mean, you're not even going to be a immortal Olympic legend by the end of, right? Like, if, if, even if it was that. Like there's nothing worth risking your very existence just to get on the podium. So it just blows my mind. You know, I'm really glad that you mentioned this example in Colombia and Yasin Savov, because they will be comfortable

enough. He's very good friend of mine to to to answer to you you know in one sentence which is well known sentence nobody can help you with your own stupidity. You know this is it in in Yassen sauov case it's simple as that because it is not the term of what you're saying. It is a big, big fire you know it is in those I mean in that event our organizer I mean I respect that guy a lot that was Lucha Jimenez the famous organizer for Columbia.

I like that guy a lot because he's very serious. He's he knows what what he's doing. He knows the place he you know. So when you go to pumps you are in good hands and then they have a habit in Colombia due to summer agricultural needs to to to burn the fields and it's forbidden by the law. So the way how the public fields fields is a very criminal way. So they can be canisters of

petrol. They put the petrol rapidly, they burn all of it rapidly and then they disappear before they go. They are caught by the police. So every single day, every single briefing will show in the the, the locals. And they're really explaining how crazy dangerous it is because it pulls into the air in minutes. It has this enormous amount of fire and all the not terminals, but updrafts. Going crazy speeds up and everybody's wanted not to do it.

But then there are certain characters in our world like in any other world that are begin to experiment that would be like as you said to push the limit beyond reasonable. So send was just a centimeters close to pay the stupidity with his life. Because when she opened the rescue and she opened the rescue and he fell just the meters away from the fire, he could ended up in the fire and my dear good friend from Bulgaria could be just a burnt meat.

And then this is nothing to be addressed with competitions, flying with organizers, with World Cup. This is personal stupidity and decision making or one particular guy, you know, and I hope that he will see this because I I spoke with him yesterday. I I hope that he will rethink his. But in meantime he he became much more responsible and you know, this kind of examples and this kind of extreme, extreme things like unique stuff and everything, you know, we have to

be, we have to be real. I mean we have to understand the drive behind these things. You know you go into, I mean Exop's is a radiator smoothie. This is, this is, this is. I mean no Exop's is. We should never forget Exop's is not the event. Exop's is the product. So this is event is a tool of the product, is a marketing tool of the product. So in the marketing sense, everything is justified. But rules are known. Marketing rules are known to every single participant.

Nothing to do with the results, nothing to do with with the media director, nothing to do with the facts. They are, they are, they are having a certain package offered to certain participants with with acceptance. You know, the the, the, the story about safety is finished.

You know, because those people, those sportsmans that absolutely are one of the best in the world with their commitment, with their capabilities, with their knowledge, they are literally accepting the risk including life threatening situations. So you know, it's not much different than I know 24 hours of lemon races at the time or whatever. You know, it's just pushing to the extreme limits and extreme everything. So yeah, you you're not forced.

It's not a circuit, it's not Olympic, it's it's kind of marketing campaign for a product. So yeah. I love your honesty, Golan and I wish every single guest was able to do this so honestly because people don't talk about this aspect of the sport very openly. So thank you so much for bringing out that perspective, so transparently insane amount of value to our sport and the

audience. I quickly want to dive into the manufacturer's side of this from the PWCA because as you you know it's it's there written in the beginning of your homepage that PWCA is helping R&D of that. We have multiple marketing campaigns run by top companies. You know, we have short nose, we have wave design, we have RAST coming in and we have like, you know, different kinds of things when it comes to level playing

feet and just human factor. Are we eventually ever going to look at standardization of equipment to a point where it literally is the same? Like it's a problem like you have the budget, you have tech, but there is a standardization which does not deviate. However, in this sport, every other time we have like Gambit coming in saying that ours is the fastest and there are some people who are improving it. And then there's Jim coming in and saying that hey, this is

revolutionary. So what what question it puts me, puts to me is that if I am going out on market and trying to buy a glider, is the glider making me win or is it my own things? And then where is the fairness

of competing coming in? If you can throw some small light on this because I remember the time when when Gambit and Spectra were not allowed in one of these comps and I don't know if it was FAI or if it was civil or something, but there was a lot of talk like why aren't we allowing people to bring in. So it's it's like if you can throw some light on this aspect of the sport. Yeah, there are a few interesting topics within this question.

Cabit was one one of I was in the middle of it and I believe we did the correct thing, but that was not one of the brightest moments in pirate history. So we did the right thing, but it was painful and ugly, so I hope it will not repeat itself. Gambit was banned. It was in the in the World 2019 and it was just out of the comp just before the comp with the controversial vote of team

leaders. Because what they want, what I want, what we wanted is to avoid the mistakes from the past and something so controversial is winning the event. You know, like we had in Super Final 2010 with the 1st edition of of Two Liners, you know, when shockers were won because you know it was such a difference, it was such such, such.

I know how to say it was futile, it was pointless, calm, you know, it was so superior over the others that it was totally pointless to. It was disappointment instead of bigger celebration. So this thing about how you regulate these these enormous, let's say maybe progress points in certain if they happen in a short amount of time and then you're just faced with them, it's a it's a very big topic. There are some tools around some rules this event, but it's not

well still controversial. So this this could be, I mean honestly this could be qualified as a failure of of of the system having this happening, you know these things should be clarified much before. So the second part of your question which is standardization, you know in in a philosophical sense it that goes to the to the theory of

relativity. You know that far because what you said a fully standardized equipment for in order to to measure the performance of a man or woman or human it's of course it's possible but in this moment it's a parallel reality. It's not something that these people now in the sport and these companies now being in the forefront of development, are appealing to have. You know, it's not about is it

possible or is it right. It's about what kind of government or what kind of parliament you have and which kind of laws are produced by those people. You know, in some different setup of people, not in different times, in the very same time, in some different setup of people, it could be easily possible. There is nothing preventing us from doing it. So there is also it's important that there is no right or wrong. Vote are right or vote are wrong, but I think both are right. Why?

Because ultimately standardized systems are working in many sports but with a huge list of factors that needs to be achieved before you reach that standardization. Because standardization in a way, in a small spot like ours, and it's, I mean in the easiest way to explain, is decreasing the intrigue and is decreasing the the, the, the, the, the fame. And in this, this glory around something, you know, standardized things are simply not so attractive to the companies, to the pilots, to

anyone. I will give you, I will give you one very good example how crazy part of the world it is And when we hit the answer gate in 2013 super final, it doesn't matter when you hit the answer gate, you know it was very ugly story when obviously the winning glider and the glider that is that is how to say the best ever is absolutely out of words. It's, it's cheating. So as organizers, we are facing with a very difficult situation where we need to disqualify 2/3

of the field. Yeah, half of more than more than half of this. And we did it. We did it. You know, it was a very controversial thing. It was. I was under huge pressure from the organizers, from the, from the manufacturers, from ozone, from from from New York to penalize. It was a big, big passive. I'm telling you this to understand why standardization is not good. People having those lighters, they were cheated, so they paid for something that was a product

that were light. It's certified. So they were victims. The owner of those under the time he said OK, we lost this game, we're going to repay to every single pilot that suffered out of his loss. So they tried to solve the problem. There was many of intermediate steps. In the beginning it was no, it's not cheating and listen. But finally they ended up cheating. So he offered refund to every single pilot willing to be

refund. You know how how many pals requested refund and give the value back 00? Not a single one. Because this paragliding and this is very important to be properly understood. This is like a drug having a better flying machine became a better glider, being superior over others, because everybody knew ozone is a very capable company, having very capable people, he said. So they managed to certify the divider after a certain amount of time.

So those ladders, those those people, they did not lose anything. Finally after a few months they they were on certified ladders and they became, but for that particular super final and their trip to Brazil, all the accommodation all the air tickets, whatever is the ability to keep and everything went to the bin. So if you carefully analyze this you will see how much this push of these people now these days is against standardization.

They would like to have the latest thing they would like to have at the vintage. You know, there is this famous book from Dennis Page and different ones flying on the last page. Among the last pages, there is one one like small chapter saying what is the easiest way to win a comp. You know, what is the easiest way to win the comp. You can take a look later on to have the best equipment standardization with my sentences there is patient, you know.

So the standardization is cutting adoption And if it's standardized, yeah. It brings me back to the point where FAI went wrong. Guran, if we are eventually bringing cash as king into the equation, there is going to be no hope, man. It seems to be like a lost cause. Well, I'm not a pessimistic, you know, for me, you know we are leaving the, as I said many times during this interview, you know, we are living the real world so we are not operating in some kind of bubble or

something. You you're exposed to all the natural movements of society and economics and whatever it is. So we're just practicing something within a well known structure and this Nobel known structure is one of the reasons why things are like they are now.

That's why I said many, many times, you know in certain circumstances in certain setup of people, you know now on Thursday in two days I'm going to Korea for the serial Bureau meeting which is in the primary of course when the all the rules, Category 1 rules are reviewed. So you know the proposals this year are so radical like never before. So as I said certain amount of things with certain amount of people can take very, very

different direction. So now we're discussing some some very serious departure from the competition world that like we we have now it's you're going into possibly into individual world championship and people who compete on the individual basis not related to the nations and many many other things you know. So from that perspective, things could be changed in any direction at any time, but.

Yeah. If this is one thing that I'm super thankful for you this that is your honesty and your and your braveness with coming with it. And you know that basically all I'm trying to say is that if we keep on pushing into this, this will turn into endless conversation that is so enriching. And because you're bringing it in such good manner, it's like, yeah, it's it's a gold mine for for me.

And I'm pretty sure as well. But you know, we're since we're closing in on time and I understand both of us have like very limited time in this one. I just want to get your closing thoughts on what's coming, what's next? What is the future of Peter Lucia Watch? Why should we be excited? Well, you know World Cup again, it's not institutional. The World Cup doesn't want to have a next best thing. We don't.

We we we do not want that. You know this is, this is, this is, this is something that I mean people that know me and that they know the the way how the World Cup operates, they will fully understand what I'm saying. You know we reach the, we reach the the point of maturity and we reach the point we reach. We have a running system and what we would like to have and to provide is to have professional serious organizers providing professional serious

services for the competitors. That's simple. We do not need the next best thing like now we will have, I don't know, satellite, artificial intelligence, live commentary from the stars. We are. We are not in that sort of business and we do not want to be in that. What we would like to have is to have a decent media coverage when people are informed what's happening what is the latest in the party. I think for example now in the Super final in in in Brazilian

in just few days. I I truly believe we have a sensational thing by any standards which is finally we will have Gene Genius 5 competing in parallel with also submarines on on a on a proper scale not one or two or three. So it's available commercially. So you know this kind of things has nothing to do with the biggest next thing. This is just ordinary sportsman world.

That's what I'm looking for. You know what we would like to have is to have a decent output from our core business which is organizing comps on the highest level. That's it. Nothing to do with the flashing stuff, nothing to do with some break new land or whatever.

We are bringing breakthroughs in in in on the technical level of the flymaster with always having the latest software, always having the latest retrieval system, always having whatever is latest within the technology, but making comps more enjoyable and from the rest of the world. It could be just things like all the time, before you know it's always the same thing. If you go, you have a comp, you have the winners, you have the podiums, you shake hands and then again and again and again.

This is called maturity of the sport. This is called maturity of one organization. Nothing sensational, just doing it. Wow Goran, I love your honesty and basically I mean I know I keep on saying this but Long story short, the professionalism you have, the drive you have, it explains why you have been at the forefront of this for 30 years and I wish you all the luck and to be honest, the questions endless.

Which means we will bring you. We would love to bring you back for another episode hopefully sometime very soon. Keep rocking. You're an inspiration. Thank you so much. You're. Welcome anything.