What is up everyone? Welcome back to Paragliding Atlas Podcast. In case you're new here, I'm your host, Aninder Singh, and today marks the very first guest episode of 2025. And guess what, guys? I kid you not, the content that we have for you today is truly one of its kind. Now I know I'm using some big words and there are endless ways to hive up any episode that comes out, but honestly, this one actually stands out from the ones we have done before. And the reason why I'm saying so
is quite simple actually. Because the content that you're about to hear can truly redefine the way we take to sky is in
years to come. And no, that's not because we have miraculously stumbled upon some ground breaking technology or experienced the sudden Eureka moment, but instead we are learning how to better control our paragliders in a whole new manner that only a few had thought about or visualized and even fewer were able to do it. But finally we have someone who says, hey, I'm going to go out and put it on public portal and let everybody have access to this knowledge through the
medium of the show. Now to illustrate this a little bit further, I want you to picture this. Rewind the clock back about two decades when R&D on paraglider wings and accessories was just getting started. It was like more or less in its initial testing phases and hit and try method was one of the ways to go. But over the years we have seen significant advancements. You know, wing designs have evolved dramatically. New technologies have made them more efficient.
Harness manufacturers have redefined their products repeatedly, going back and forth with new and innovative designs. However, amidst all of these changes, there's one thing that has remained constant, and that is the way we have trained pilots to handle the wing. And to put it quite simply, the SIV training, the safety training that we have for pilots has quite simply not seen an upgrade except for a few tweaks and turns here and there, which are basically done on a personal
level with an instructor. However, still, the core principles of wing control have largely remained unchanged since their inception. And that is why today's episode is so exciting, because finally we have an instructor in the industry who has stepped up to say, hey, there's a better way
of doing this. And this episode is all about sharing that upgrade, a whole new innovative approach to how we control the wing, feel its movements, and eventually make the skies a more safer and more fun place to be. And not to forget, a more intuitive place to navigate while practicing the art of flight.
So even though this episode was required quite a while ago, we purposely decided to release it as one of the first ones of the years, quite simply because there could not be a better way to kick off 2025 then something unique, innovative and inspiring that sets the tone for all the exciting content we have lined up for you guys in months to come. So without further ado, let's dive right into this demo for
production. And as I always say, if you have enjoyed the content that we have brought to you so far, do consider doing your own bit, smashing that like and subscribe button or dropping in a rating wherever possible. As these small acts of kindness go a super long way in helping us grow the show, reach more people, and eventually make paragliding a more safer and more enjoyable sport to be.
And now let me introduce to you today's guest, Helmut Shrimp, a dynamic coach, an innovator of some sorts, but most importantly, someone who's passionately reimagining SIV training as we know it. And this happens to be another one of those unfiltered and honest discussions about the future of paragliding safety training. So, TuneIn, and I hope you like it. Helmut Shrimp, what an honor to have you and paragliding athletes welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, nice to get
invited. We're so thankful you took our time from your super busy schedule and you're making lives in the air better by training people at the pleasure's all ours. Much to begin with, Helmut, 20 years of flying, 10 years of dreaming about this, and finally last two of actually realizing this. What is this brand new exciting thing that you have in the industry? Just let our audiences know. What is safety pilot coaching all about?
All right, let's talk about let's start in the what we was 10 years ago was just thinking about the maneuvers, what we do teaching in SOS and realise people coming flying the maneuvers and sometimes leaving an SOV be more scared than before. And that's and that's the thinking about what I have to change. What can we do? And it comes from other sports. In the end, if you think about skiing, mountain biking, anything else sports with movements.
Their year was going back to the pilot, like how I move in a harness and it's already 20 years ago when I start teaching beginner courses and we have be sitting in a simulator and just trying to show them how to do a turn. And if you sit in a simulator like this and the people sitting inside move and that just wrapped the arm and I feel the tension in the muscles, what they have there. And it was like for me with this tension, you can't do a turn
precised. And from this moment I start thinking and I realized later on as well, it's happened in every maneuver, every new maneuver, what you try to fly. And so I start from the pilot up to the maneuvers. This is the main idea. Let's first bring the pilot in the shape that he can perform the Minervas. And you need something of this to start slowly and going further and further. This was the is the basic idea of safety pilot coaching. That means every wing already
can do nearly every maneuver. The wing don't have to learn it as well. Yeah, I don't already know it. It's more the connection from the pilot to the harness and this is the basic of safety pilot coaching. Love it man. I think the way you explained it is so beautiful that things are capable of a lot and what eventually is made out of it depends a lot on the pilot. And then this ideology of training the pilot to be good enough or to handle those many hours or situations in flight.
I think it's such a wholesome way of increasing the safety for that person in flight. Just since this is an audio only podcast, I think the simulator that you mentioned is basically hanging the harness with strings and then sitting in that and trying to move it, is that correct? Yeah, that's right. And there's giving some
something more together in this. If you think about if you're in flight and stuff like this, it was like to explain a little bit what I mean is we have we learned in early times, me too, in the time when I start, there is something happen in the air. You have to block it down that move your wing, keep it above you. And then when I start flying a Chrome, it was more like work with the system, not against it.
And we have to say like in certification tests, OK, we're watching on ABCD certification CCC and get that information from the wing. What directions are inside? Collapse, speeded, collapse, front collapse spirals, whatever. My job as a trainer is to create a pilot who can reduce the reaction of the wing, like on the side collapse in the certification tests. That means you collapse, you release, you do nothing, let the
system work. And in the last years, it comes more and more out that we should go into the collapse side with the weight shift. I know there's a big discussion about is it good or not? But in the end, we are based on physics, so we can't work against physics. And that shows us less reaction in the trainings. And sure, we have to be careful because we simulate collapses from pulling downside from down. In the true world, we are not in the clean air. We are moving air in different
reactions. What should we train? We can train the wing collapsing straight above us and take a look how can we reduce the reaction. And this is the most important thing at work with this, with the system. Let let the system work for you and take the time and realise when can you do a right input to stabilise. And that's not all the time. At the first moment it means you cannot react on something what isn't happen. And there comes a lot of reactions out, like what we see now.
We have troubles with side collapses where people assume they can steering opposite side, shifting the weight and turning in the opposite side. And I think that's getting more dangerous than the collapse by themselves. And for me, the collapse on the wing is more like a protection. It's not a bad thing. Sure, it's not nice because you can't sit straight anymore, but it's in the end it saves us. We had many years ago we got an Acura wing which was closing the
cells when you go on the brakes. It stays inflated. It stays inflated. It was super nice for connections, but when this wing starts shooting, you wasn't able to break them to stop them. It was impossible. If you wind shoots in front of you and you got a front collapse, you have to say thanks in the end because if it will shoot further, you can fall in the canopy and that's worse than the collapse. So just out of curiosity, why
couldn't the brakes hold it? But was it like physically impossible to prevent that kind of force? The brake washer getting that hard and if the canopy cannot de inflate the air cannot go out. It's staying a solid profile. That means you can change the angle on the trailing edge, but the movement the energy is still in.
That's the good thing. On the para can if the air removes this, destroy a little bit the profile and you are able to stall it. I think somebody told me collapse is a safety mechanism for that modern day para level exist. But this also brings me to a point that I see more and more designers pushing towards collapsed resistant wings. So are we all looking just for a street spot where they're harder to collapse?
But then they should collapse? We have rust, we have reflex, we have two liners which are making it harder. So as a buyer or as somebody who wants to go out and have fun in the sky, should you look for more collapsible, easily collapsible wing or hard, more difficult to collapse wings? Or is it like it's a trade off that you decide yourself? There is a lot of things to talk about. Let's start what you say Rust for sure the wing is able to collapse in the front of the leading edge.
It means not he should. The wing should stay completely up. It's more the training edge should stay stable. Because I'm not a designer for wings, I just see reactions, fly the wings and see what happened in the trainings. And I only can talk about my experience, what I saw and we want to see what has happened in the developing. And we're talking about this reflex profiles, especially in speedball flying as well what the wings creating. We have to be careful a little
bit. If we talk about reflex, it's not the true reflex like this. The what what has happened in the last year is what I think is because I flow as well in the beginning, the R11 and from ozone and the swings and it was already happened in this time it was 2011, 2012 and we saw there already some different movements of the wing and after in in the time it comes down until the a sector that means 3A wings showing us some movement was was happened 810 years ago only in
the high advance things. And what every manufacturer tries to do is make the wings more solid to stay stable. It's good as well, but it's a different flying style. Now if I think back about 15 years in school, we teach the people, if you keep brake pressure all the time, nothing happens. You can control the wing. It was maybe wrong at this time too. So we as well learn something that means we have wings. If you go on speed bump, we have to start with speed bump.
Let's go with speed bump in two liners and bring it down to the lower sectors. OK, So what is let's talk about the two liners. If you fly on speed bump, we have to go on the B handles. That means you release the brakes, they get us no brake on it, and then you go on the B handles and try to correct your wing and stabilise it or react. Honey, why we have to go back to the B handles because we create in speed bar a little bit of an S shape profile.
That means the shark nose, the leading edge is working against something what's pulling upwards. They try to keep it nose down, but if something try to push the leading edge downwards on the trailing edge, this S shapes tree opposite movement and to stabilize the canopy. And with if you if you go on the B lines, you help them to make this asphalt bigger and stabilize and break it a little bit. If you go on the brakes, you create on the trailing edge on the trailing edge a ratio and
this ratio creates a lift. If you got a lift upwards on the trailing edge, what will happen in front will collapse and this is how it works. That means that's why we changed to B steering. You can fly faster because you're not going to break. You create not that much lift if you go on the BS. That means you keep your wing more solid, more stable above you. The same movements are now sometimes already in the A
category. We have A wings that have a little S shape and the same movements, but then the thickness of the profile and the deepness of the profile is that big that it makes not that big difference. If you go shortly on the brakes in the high B sector, it's already in. If you go on the brakes on the wrong moment can create the call UPS, it's more solid. It's tested as well in the certification.
You have to keep it and it's working, but it's different if you test it in still clean air or urine. In moving air, this S shape already is working as well. If you're not on speed bar, it's a little bit tricky. Let's let's talk a little bit about S shape for our audiences who don't know what S shape is going to describe that and then we can. All right, S shape means automatic stabilisation from the wing. If the nose tack downwards, that means the profile works by
themselves against the collapse. This profile, it's especially more in the centre. Let's talk about 60% of the centre and in the outside it's less. Centre cells are maintaining yes profile more and the ring tips are in your. Let's say depending on the construction, how much of the profile have this shape, it's sometimes more in the middle, it's more, it's going outside, getting less and something like this.
Let's stay on two liners first. If you have two lines, A and the B, if you if the airflow around you change the direction and it's coming upward movement or downward movement of the air and the wing try to go into the stream. That means maybe the angle change and the wing try to go a little bit downwards with the nose to to to change this angle. If you especially it's not on speed by now I'm just talking in
normal flight. That means the nose go forward and the end and try to if the A lines go a little bit down, what will happen on the B lines? They try to stay up. That means it's the same angle for a short moment like you stay on speed bar. And we see that already.
We have a lot of videos on Instagram YouTube that you see by people flying with different kind of jewel liners in a turn and the outset wing try to correct the air is trying to it feels like a movement forward on the outset wing go forward and the pilot starts to stop it. We learned in all times, if the wing moves fast given short hard input, that was the old techniques like and this short input, if the this profile tries to stabilize himself and use pilot react and give a short
input on the outside break you, you feel first there's not much resistance, nearly nothing. And in the next moment comes a lot of pressure because on the trailing edge, you create this ratio and you get a lift upwards. And this makes like the movement you pull, you feel the pressure, you stop. And this short movements with the hard short inputs creates the lift on the trailing edge up. And then you got the collapse as well injected by the pilot. Oh damn this is so fascinating.
I never thought that trailing the lift point goes back to trading actually, because this makes so much sense now. And, and this has happened on a lot of videos and they get a lot of videos to watch and say, hey, can you take a look what has happened? I said, yeah, it's the new wings. And there is something you can feel it. Maybe people flying in C category, high B. And as well my girlfriend, I told her you have two options now. Fly with more brakes on both sides and you will feel it's
more solid, it feels stable. Or the other thing is leave your hands up and let the profile work for you. If you're a little bit on the brakes in toggling conditions, you feel the wing is moving much more. This is a very important thing. Now keep a little bit of contact in flying. That's important to do it, but it's depending on the wing for sure. But if you go a little bit on the brake, it means. You you get a little pull on the trailing edge.
That means a little pull removes this little S shape so it cannot work anymore by themselves. But to stabilize the wing, it's too less break. That means the this little break way, it's not nice anymore. It can it make you more nervous in the air, more movement than it is in the air. So there is not any more the time to fly a little bit on this brakes. The second thing is if you go a little bit more on the brakes, I'm talking about 2025% of
brakes in top line conditions. We have to learn steering differently. We have to learn steering more with releasing brakes to make a turn with releasing outside. Because if you go on tumbling condition and you're already on 25% of brake and then you enter a turn with pulling more brake, you create a very tiny pendulum outside of yourself, right? Because you have no energy anymore in the system or less. Please explain creating pendulum outside of yourself.
What does that say? If you that means if you if you have about 25% of brake, you shift your weight to the inside, then you go a little bit more on the inside brake. That means the wind goes low along the inside and tries to make your movement left side forward on. If you put on the left side, you are working on the opposite side with your body. That means you're going outside right side. It's a double bendalum.
But if this bundle lung is going outside and it's too less and you can't do the turn anymore because you're going to the little bit outside to the right side. If you do a left turn and if you want to turn further, your pendulum is working again, your pendulum into centre of the wing all right. And then the pendulum is working against you because it's not stopping in the centre. It tries to go to the other side.
Then you feel why is it not turning and you pull more on the inside and then you are close to a stall point with about 50% of brake because your pendulum is not working anymore and you lose speed in the whole system, not just in the wing as well in yourself. And and this thing is like, we have to learn more With releasing, you're only able if
you control your body. If you're sitting with full tension, full muscle power, it's super hard to release because you have to work against your muscles. And now it comes together. You understand why we have to change the movements, what we do and we have to go back to basics and learn in basic maneuver our own body movements, All right. I somehow feel it is so important for for us to bring out this point. We as pilots in our community do not spend enough time on a wings.
Everybody is so keen to upgrade to a high B as soon as they start flying that those wings bring more anxiety into flying than they bring value, at least in the early hours. And A wings are the ones which will allow you to fly as relaxed as possible, sometimes hands free as well, which I do not recommend by any means. I'm just letting you know the the relaxation behind flying a wings.
So I think inherently ES community just made it that first fifty hours have to be on a or some certain threshold. Then pilots will be much more relaxed as the progress in their own flight because they've seen the the easy side of flying as well in the beginning of their career I believe. Yes, OK, because for me we have some a wings.
Let's talk about this. We have some a wings that that long steering ways and everyone have his own sense of movements and say, OK, if I pull them out my hand down about 25 centimeters like this and I was waiting for react, I'll be I'll be waiting for a reaction. If I do something, I want to have a react. If the first 25 centimeters have
happened, nothing. I pull more and then I learn I have to pull a lot and more and more that there's moving something and there comes a swell something together. What we what to say about harnesses And for me, if I think about if I have to calculate how a system works, 60% is the harness, 30% is the wing and 10% is the pilot. And that's not what I say about skills. I say just the system is working. The harness is much more important for how a system is
working. And for the pilot, the 1010%, what I say depending a goal with 50 kilos, it's much more harder to shift the weight than if you have 100 kilos. It makes more reaction and the swell. This is all you have longer arms, shorter arms. It's different layers on the arms.
And if we think about harnesses and the schools with the no and the German Austrian market style, it means a lot of weight shifting in schools means we do a lot and say rolling winger, little winger was we fly come on, shift your weight and pull, shift your weight more. I think a lot of pilots out in the out there know already the harnesses are blocked. They are not a they're you're not any more able to shift that much weight. Yeah, we have cross here, we
have the harnesses. If I think back in the time when I start flying into my first acro flights, we had carabina attachment about 3236 centimetres above the seaport, much lower than now. And in the competition harnesses the cross lines block your harness for flying on speed bump. What's block me hard?
The amount that means if you go on the pot harnesses for competition as well like in the lightweight harnesses, one or two to have it already that you can just align to block your weight shifting for flying on speed bar. I agree there's a there's a setting in the harness that makes it more or less sensitive. And all the new harnesses, I
have to pick out one now. It's like very easy of what one if you try to weight shift in this harness, you will see there's not much happen for weight shifting. And the question for me was we talking in the schools, tell the people shift more weight and the manufacturers go there and block more and more. The harnesses for me was the everyone was talking like Mickey Mesler say, wow, that's hard. Yeah, because they block it more and more. We can't move the body more and more.
It's harder to move the body to to shift the weight and then say, OK, you're right, that's maybe not good. And then I start thinking what was happened about efficient and guide range the last 10 years, a lot. We're getting faster, we're getting more dynamic in the wings. Maybe there was a communication problem. The manufacturers see if we leave the harnesses full on with weight shifting, the wings get too dynamic and are unable to control.
And now we come to the problem we learn in school, shift full weight, shift your weight, shift more your weight. Then you try it with your harness in the air and try to move your body. And then you come to a point where the harness say and to this point you can do it and then not and sure you can press with full muscle power over the harness and get more reaction. What has happened if you go over the harness from the weight shifting, you need muscle power,
you need tension in the body. How precise can you use your brake and and then it's it's and the people learn blocking and blocking and instead to learn using the brake to pull it right. If you have to, if you have to think like in a little roll, like a little wing knows if you have more, someone with a wing is a little bit of feeling for the brakes and you tell them shift your weight, pull a break, do a little bit on it and change to side.
If you do it three times, you are higher than 90° and you're starting wing overs. If I sitting down as teacher, I'm scared. Sure. If it's the fourth, fifth flight and you start with this little wing overs and someone with a feeling and do it right, he's super quick, goes to 90°. We have the problems. OK, I'm scared of it as teacher. And that's right because after 90° it's easy to get collapses out of his drawers and stuff
like this. But you're not learning the right movement of pulling a brake and more important is releasing a brake. If you think about nearly let's let's go back to a collapse because I think that's a movement, but a lot of people know what has happened. If you think for a collapse, you got a 50% collapse, you go on the side, the wing starts rolling and got a nick moment and moving forward and you start breaking the opposite side. That means you have to pull the opposite side.
The wing is a little bit in front of you and then when your puddle and works and you understand that you have to release the brake, right? What is the exit of the maneuver? It's not the pulling, it's the releasing moment, OK? Letting it fly, basically. Yeah, depends. Because if the column stays still in, it means you have to precise your releasing. If you stay too long on the break, you immediately turn to
the opposite side. That wasn't happened 15 years ago, OK, This is the moment, this is the efficience of the wings change our movements, what should we do? Why should we react differently? And it's more important the releasing part, if you think about as well, if you do a turn right and just a normal 90° turn for landing approach doesn't matter. You go in, you pull the exit of the turn is releasing. For me, it's like barricading is A4 dimension sport. It sounds a little bit crazy.
Maybe it's not important where to entry a turn, but it's more important where to exit right, the United Degrees turn. It's more important where I come out of this turn and this steering is the releasing moment on the brake. It means the releasing is much more important than the.
Bullying, yeah. Before we move on to the next topic, I just want to quickly touch up on the fact that when you were giving advice to your girlfriend about flying either with a little bit of brakes on or no brakes on 2 liners. This does make a lot of sense 100%, but first question before we go to lower category wings. How do you? The second sorry because the semi girlfriend it wasn't it was a mentor 7 it's not an high expected. Ratio in, but I just want to look at this direction from A2
liner perspective. They are super stable which don't talk back to you that often. How do you anticipate collapses or rough air or how do you stay in the best possible position to have ideal reaction or close to ideal reaction when it happens if you're not on the brakes at all, if you're letting the profile do the S shaped thing all throughout the slide before the collapse happens actually. We're talking about active flying, exactly. In the trainings with Haldem, stay relaxed, follow the
movement of the wing. It doesn't matter if it's a collapse and negative spin. Go with the wing, go with the flow. And I focused on myself lying in rough conditions on speed bar. No, I'm not that relaxed in the harness. I keep a little tension on my body. I stay in the harness leaning back, stay connected to the harness, try in the position with tension to realize when is something happen.
And as soon I feel I lose tension, maybe on the left side, I release my tension in the body and follow the wing admit I stay on tension and I feel my left carabiner drop down. I lose the tension. I release my tension in the body on my hip and and let the wing take from my body what he needs. OK and there is somebody say I go actively. If I feel I lose the brush, I press in and saying yeah, it's
working. But the question is do you think with active pressing inside this side, the wing get exactly that what he needs? Most of the time not. And this is where people get a lot of roll moments or wing rolling moments and pitch moments out in flying on speed bar. And I hear a lot I cannot fly straight on speed bar. I start rolling all the time. This is especially these tension.
Makes a lot of sense, but let's say when you're connected with B risers, your own bar B riser is the most efficient way of handling it. With brakes it's a whole different way of active flying. With these. Also you have to put in a lot of effort in correcting or anticipating distortion of S shape is a little less on the B risers. I completely agree with that because they're connected at a different point in the trailing
edge or or in the canopy. But does it make sense to stay more active on B risers otherwise as well when you're not on the bar because they distort the shape a lot? I fly a lot of time just on the B risers without bar because it's the same. It's depending on the conditions for sure and I use the BS as well just going straight away if I want to have the full efficient of my wing.
I fly on the BS as well without speed bar because it's working well and there is no reason if it's normal air why I should go on the brakes. It's a changing of the flying style and it changed. I go on the bees as one. They use it like brakes, just in a shorter way. And on the two liners depending I I use it in a little bit ratio pulling it back or go a little bit on tension. On the B rises, you get more give you get more rough air. I got a little bit more intention to be on point if I
have to do something. And sure there are moments where there is too rough and you got a collapse. If you got a collapse, you need the B rises. You have to change to the brakes. That means that's a training moment to change it. But if you have a collapse, most of the time in the first moment your angle of attack get higher and you create a pendulum. If the wing is behind you, you can say thank you because you have time to release your B light risers and go on the
brakes. That means the lump is a good movement because it gives you time to A. 100% but what I'm wondering is especially high expectation wing is B liner, B line the new brake line for optimal flying performance. It's the option to help the wing stay solid above you. Yeah, it's not. It's not the same like a brake line because you're not really breaking down or pulling down the trailing edge. It's more to help the wing to create more of this technically features what you have.
Does Hazop flying exist in real world flying conditions or is B Riser flying the most optimal way because it lets you connect more with your wing and the corrections are easier than hands up flying or anticipation of the corrections needed? What's your take on that? Be careful because if you go straight and want to fly on efficient you are go on B and
let the wing fly. If you go on three liners or 2 1/2 liners, it's important that it it has APC bridge about connection because there is the idea like because you have to. It's a little bit hard to explain without showing. That means if you have a wing who is ABC and there is no connection from C to B, that means you're just pulling down the C and you have a deep profile before you and you make it hard Nick inside there is a possibility to stall your wing.
OK, this is the hard thing like to which wing I can which would I can use the sea steering and normally the manufacturers say in the manual this wing is constipated for sea steering. I cannot say for all yes use the sea lions. When you do your license, you should learn steering on the sea lions. Important thing is if you go for sea steering without the BC bridge, a connection between these two risers, you have to be very gently on the sea lions.
Makes sense. Another question just popped up in my mind about the minimum sync. A lot of times while I was progressing in the sport, there was a point of minimum sync with a little bit of brakes and flying, that kind of a thing. How do we apply the concept of minimum sync when we are on two liners or on BB risers? It's interesting because I think the minimum sink rate is not anymore on this 20% or 15% of break.
If you look about, I think we should start from best guide ratio that's in the middle category of BC that change the position of minimum speed. A lot of pilots are now using weight shift on the outside keep more brake on the inside or some of them as well steering with BC on the outside because yeah this has happened now because there is the more efficient minimum sink rate on it. So that change a while the techniques on a high expected ratio.
I'm sure it makes sense to make the best guide about 40 fifty 60% of speed and not precise. I didn't test it. That means nearly is no brake is minimum sync rate. If you go a little bit on it in the first moment you change something, that means you create speed to altitude. In the first moment you have to check on which position of the brake is it, but it changed and it's different which when you have. Where is this?
Point got it. The more you fly it out, the better you are able to answer this question for your own flying and your own wing. I guess that is the conclusion here. All right, let's start with saying that pattern lighting kind of started modernizing itself about 10 to 20 years ago. Sometime in between that is when the wings were getting super efficient, we were seeing leaps and bounds in performance. A little bit of R&D started
coming in a professional manner. However, the word SIV, I'm pretty sure 90% of the pilots don't even know how to say it because it's so. The word SIV has stayed as it is regardless of how difficult it is to pronounce it, and there has been absolutely no changes compared to the advancements in technologies. Why did this happen? What's your take on this? Like why? Links have gotten better. Pilots have changed their hands off flying, yet nobody basically gave a damn about safety.
So why? Why did we never see an evolution in safety training all this while? Why? I think it's hard because in this sport we teach a lot the based on the wing, the wing shouldn't do this, the wing should do this. You have to do this. And no one explained why we forgot about the pilots. We have a super hard analytic stuff for body movements because if I bring it on the airplane, I never saw an airplane. But the main tale is working
opposite to the wings. If the airplane goes in the turn, the whole airplane is turning to the side. For me is the body of the bylot is part of the aircraft. And then you have to think about the steering part of the wing. That's your two arms and your hand and you steering a wing who is 9 meters away from you. You are changing angry of the deck on the trailing edge and you're waiting for an
aerodynamic reaction. That means we have to separate focus and it's super hard to explain what are the body movements in different situations. That means we have to learn steering the arms separately of the body and sometimes the body on tension and sometimes following the movements. Then about tension in the shoulders and back, and there was no one who was thinking about this complicated movements of the pilots.
Everyone was saying you have to pull there, you have to pull there and that's it. And it works. It's not a problem, it works. It's not wrong. What we did until this time, everything, what we are, what we create in this sport, it's a learning process. And now we think about one of the first part of guiding, 1989 or 1987 were to start with parachutes running down from the mound with a greater ratio from one toe.
And it was a big development. And now we are in around 40 years of power guiding, getting better and better in everything. We learn something, bring something from other sports into it. It was a pioneer sport like it was more explorers who go there, go power guiding, introduce themselves and if you try a long time in paragliding and you be focused on yourself to getting better and better, you will find only one solution to perform it in a perfect way.
You learn your body movement automatically and no one thinks about what I'm doing that I can perform that perfectly. And this is sometimes so precise. Small movements makes a difference from the huge call ups to smaller columns. This takes time and then it comes commercial. A lot of people starts flying and the time to get your license was getting shorter and shorter. We have short time to bring the same into it than before. And before Gaia wasn't that efficient.
And so they give you more backup in the end because there was not so much dynamic inside. Sure, it was more risky about stalls, spins, because it was not that efficient, OK, but that was like, OK, you should block everything and work with your body because if you stop the collapse with a 20 year old being full on the brakes, you will stall them. So that means the fashion exchange.
And this takes time to bring out to the wall because we have a lot of park having teachers to teach already 2025 years and they see my old technique still is working. Yes, it do they do the technique. The old techniques are still working. It's not the big problem if you have to be pre if you're precised on your weight shifting. OK, if you learned that a long time, you can do it. But to learn it faster and more precise.
There's other way we can do it. And for me, if I tell someone, shift your weight 15% to the right side, super hard, right. If I tell you take your right side, breakdown 15 centimeters, take it 5 centimeters deeper, release it slowly. It's easier to teach. That means there's a lot of teach techniques inside. It wasn't developed in this sport. If you go back to skiing, you're not starting with the high advanced carving skis, you're
starting with basic skis. And if you watch the ski instructor, he will adjust your movements in the legs, your tension in the knees, your movement of your upper body to stay in the right position on the skis. Then you Start learning the first movements. So that means to spend a lot of time on body movements. We never did that in the sport. We did it just in tiny things like installs where we say keep tension and and the old thing
was as well. Like if something happens, go upright, make yourself tiny in the wing that you will not get twisted. And this was a swell because I'm flying in my my trainings. I try to teach all my nerves this one importantness with straight legs and. Wow. Yeah, because it's like you fly the harness in this position, so learn to use it. And it was last week I got a guy a guy comes out and try to fly sat sure with straight legs and he over pulls the entry.
He get full spin a full spin in with straight legs no twist at all because the twists not coming from straight legs. Sure there is more resistance and stuff like this it makes a difference, but the most twists are coming from a block tip. It means if I have a negative spin and if I say OK I have to follow now because it's happened. You can't change it in this moment, it's happened.
And if your hip following a negative spin, remove the pressure from the positive side, that means you're following with the wing or say go with the wing. You can't change it now and now you have to exit it. And that cause releasing and not just hands up, it's bring your hands up, bring it from negative to positive flying, controlled releasing. And what happened with this is we got a lot of problems in spin stalls, speeded collapses until
we change the techniques we had. I had this year about 2020 trainings weeks. I have about 5 or 6 rescues. OK. And really I would say 8085% of this students as well fly stalls and spins. If I think at the old time we had three to four rescues per training weeks, that's. Quite a difference. This is and this is the result. There is much more behind than just to do the maneuvers like this.
For me it's more like start with super small collapses, learn the movement and to learn you can react on it. You can change direct with your body movements and this changed in the last years more and more and they can see the results. I get the response from people outside to say hey I'm still training. I used the store to clear
cravat. Someone told me last time more I get the huge collops close to the wall and it was so hard to get into it because of he say I go into it as well if I fall to this wall where I'm flying. But I got it corrected and wasn't a problem. And Tennessee it makes sense in the trainings. It's not about to destroy the ring and hopefully it's flying again. No, you got the chance to repair it. Not all the time depend on the situation of the metrology about the double Lancers and rough air.
But you've got chances if you train yourself and not doing. That makes so much sense. I think I'll let our audience process that for a minute. What I'm wondering is, I think we might have covered a lot of the points for this question in our talk earlier, but fundamentally, the normal SIV is teaching us to control the wing, and safety pilot coaching is teaching us to control ourselves and the wing.
What's your take on the define? Hold on please with this there are there are a lot of good Sovs. OK, then what I see is that doing good things and for me was it to change the name precised on that to give a wake up call and say don't pull Justin Manerus think more about the pilots go to each pilot where he has to step on his next step. I see some trainers are not flying anymore. OK. If I'm not flying by myself any more than Minervas and go with the techniques and try to think
it's for me as well. It's hard because I work a lot and I have to stay on time with the Minervas and try to new things and try how it reacts. Especially I can't fly all the combinations we have on the market. And it would be great if we could create something international to bring experience together and find new concepts to create it better and teach the peoples better for safety. That means it's not just this SPC is the maximum of everything.
It's just a beginning of thinking differently, more for the pilots. OK, And this is, for me, very important message. I don't want to stay there and the shrimp is SPC or something like this. This is a very important message because there's so many good trainers out there and we start slowly get connected to each other and talk about discussions. Podcasts like this bring us together because it's super hard to talk with French, so we train us, or with other ones because
about language as well. Like English is not my native language. It's hard for me sometimes to find the right words. But in Turkey I saw some trainers teaching nearly the same concept with movements to show it. But if they do it intuitive or on purpose, what do you think about? But there are a lot of potential what we have to bring together
to bring sport up and make it more safe. 100% agreement, and that is one of the reasons, as you mentioned earlier, that paralleling Atlas exists to bring out such knowledge to the audiences, regardless of where they are in the globe. So massive thank you to you and all our listeners for being a part of this tribe I'm building here. Keeping on with the topic, how do you assess when a new pilot comes to you? Let's dive right into the action
of how SPC works. So day one, somebody has signed up, shows up with all, let's get what is your To Do List? How do you take it from there on? And then in short, the 1st is I take a look at the adjustments of the harnesses, that's all the pot harnesses. I explain how this works, the different of weight shifting about releasing tension in it, how to work to deal with the different layers in this harness.
And for me is I think a lot of peoples fly with too much tension in the Botanus. I showed them the different movement in a simulator, how to follow in a turn. What's the difference? If you block the hip, you will feel it immediately. They see a lot of them that go 1st and show them the difference. Now let them press on this like press on this like see the difference and see what it's really completely different. Then I show them the body movements, the right pull
movements for the difference. Every pilot has a different movement. Somebody have a problem with the shoulder, can't do this movement. OK, let's find a way to sort it when it comes together. And then the next thing is we go to theory. And I do a lot of theory because it's for me, it's not important that you can remind everything I talked about because I tried to talk about the 20 years of flying in short time. For me it's important that you understand why it is like this
and then begin for flying. Watch the videos on and start basic maneuver speech pandalong this maneuver you can learn so much. You have to fly it in as slow as you can to see your own body movements and to realize where I am in this maneuver. And then we going step up from collapses to negative spins to stalls. For me, every maneuver I step up, it says I create this word pulling. It's 30% flying, releasing a brake in the right movements, different speeds, it's 60% of
flying. To bring this together gives you the option to fly clean, spins, stalls. It's falling and releasing together and this brings your skid levels higher and the rest 5% maybe. 10. We are passenger. Makes so much sense. Let the Destiny players fart. OK, but there is this one super thing like because if you have the high angle of attack with the grand pendulum, the wing is behind you. Yeah. OK, just one thing. If the wing in the pandem, you swing forward, the wing is
behind you. That's what. I've heard so far. The question is why for me? So then if some somebody told me something, I ask why? I think my answer was I am pretty sure I can speak for majority of my listeners as well as do you. Don't stall it even more or deform the trailing edge even more so that the energy with which the wing has gone back doesn't build up even more. So when it shoots, it's not
going to shoot like crazy. The answer of most people is because if I break it behind me, it stalls. This is the answer of 80% what I get. All right. Because in school, if the wing is behind you, don't break it because you stall it. That's super interesting. It comes from acroparaguiding. If you try to stall the wing in the high end with a pendulum you get longer breakaways if longer steering ways. It's super hard to explain without a video but there is I
tried. OK, I tried this last Panerva to explain. OK, you create a pitch pandalum by yourself, you break, keep it release and as long your pendulum is working, you have a lot of reserve in the system. OK about stars, if you ever had on the takeoff, you lift up your wing with less wind, you keep on walking and you try to stop this takeoff. OK, I think just in mind, bring the wings above you. Less tension, less pressure. How deep you have to break that Your wing fall down again a lot.
Maybe their arms are too short. OK, when you have to pound alone, you go forward. The wing is behind you. In the moment when this movement stops, how much weight is on the wing of you? Less. It's almost wages. That means you have longer steering ways, but if you break too early, it means you stop behind you. They're moving wing forward and then you try to stop the wing straight above you. What has happened with your pendulum? Your pendulum from the pilot will as well stop.
And if you stop the pendulum from the pilot and the wing, if you break too early at the wing above, you go straight a little bit forward. It stays a little bit of pendulum. You go under the wing. You have still the brake on it. Now you have to release because you you reduced with this movement the speed from the wing and the pilot. That means the speed in the system is less. If you go on a little turn, your wing will spin in a negative spin because you have no speed
in the system anymore. Yeah, the. Air state is OK. What is happened? If you leave your hands behind up, the pendulum is working OK and then the wing comes above you, you swing back right. That means if you start breaking your wing when your pendulum is you are in the center, the wing go forward, you swing backwards, then you go on connection point and then forward moving. You go deeper on the brake faster. You stop the forward flying movement of the wing.
You can go full on because the angle of attack is slow. You have a long breakaway again. If the pendulum change like this, you start releasing and you keep the speed in the system. This is the reason why we should stop the wings above a little bit in front of us. This is important for the new wings with the S shape. If you use the brake, use it right and more, but in an angle where the wing can take more breakaway.
Most people break too early. If the wing is just about 10-15 degrees behind you and coming forward and you brake already, I all them ask the people on which part of the brake you have the best reaction in, which part of the brakes you have reduced the most speed. Think about landing. If you come in nearly open brakes, you go a little bit on it, you go straight away, You change speeding altitude right, you make a nice flare and you lamp. If you come in with already pulled 40% of brake.
We all did it already, but it hurts if you start to freeze something. It's nothing of freeing, it's just a dropping. Down the whole different world with two liners. I I I paid the price not too long ago so I I couldn't walk straight for next two days. And this is for me as well. This is if most efficient brake, they are the 1st 30% of brakes and this 30% of brake to use in the moment when the wing starts really creating speed forward.
This moment you have to use this way specially now and then. This is not above you, it's a little bit in front of you and that means any connection point in the pendulum and when he starts really pulling forward. In this moment I used 30% of brake reduce, the maximum I can reduce on the brakes and if the pendulum goes further, I can brake slowly deeper and support him. It doesn't matter if it stalls in front of me, but when the pendulum change I'm going back
under the wing. I have a long way to releasing and keep the speed in the system and on the pendulum back and releasing the brakes the angle of the deck get higher, that means the chance of the collapse is less OK. Interesting. It's a lot that maybe that your podcast. Yeah, this has to be. I can try and publish this video as well if it works on Spotify
platforms, but we'll see. I feel like I should meet you in person with all my camera gear and stuff like that to make this more enriching rather than just an audio one minute. I think a lot of this like this French exit 1 in this trainings from exit from high winger was in straight climb up. Yeah, you have a long time to think about what they're doing.
Do you have a new climb up? It feels like a minute, but it's a free 4 second climb up and the people break to stop the wing too early and get more shootout that tell them hey wait and most of the time they go and contact a little bit break 15% of break and the adult stops. They can't believe it's it. OK, sure, it's clean situation of a delay for me. I'm lazy. I want to have this last reaction the most efficient out of it.
Of course that's the way. To be honest, I think competition flying must have helped a lot in this kind of thought process because that is all about efficiency and maintaining the energy and not wasting it. I think we should be thankful for two liners and all the comp players for coming into the sport in a structured way. R11 era was a whole different time, but today's flying, as you said, people are controlling BC rises on the outer end of the terminaling core and all of that.
That helps a lot in my opinion. But for anybody who's listening to this, if they have to start preparing for this kind of thought process and glider handling, what are the steps they can take to try and inculcate this? Of course you are doing your own bit and people are in different possibilities where accessing you or a trainer like you, the
possibilities are only so much. So wherever they are, if they want to try and fly towards this direction, what are the steps that you recommend people follow so they can become a safer pilot overall? First I think is take time. Really give yourself time and try basic maneuvers. That means go for pitch pandalum, not like what we did early times. Pull it until you get a frontal cut up. OK, that's not to sense out it. Really realize your movements, the movements of the wing.
Fly it slowly, take time for it. The next thing, if you go in two liners, it's important to get a little bit of consequence in negative spins because this is the fastest and efficient way to get Kravitz out. There's maybe one very important thing for me because I saw a lot of time to get Kravitz out with a negative spin or pulling brake. The important thing is do it on a high angle of attack. That means when the wing is behind you, not in front of you.
I see a lot of accidents where people try to pull out the Kravitz and going in a turn in a spiral dive going into they get out there to get out. Maybe they grow up but the angle is so the wing is in front of them and got the opposite collops like a cascade. The only right way in my opinion is clean a wing in when the pendulum is working, it is
behind you. You can pull long breakaways, you have less pressure in the right moment, and the wing cannot enter in a turn when the pendulum is working behind you. Get confidence on this one because that's the fastest way to clean it. And for my opinion is it get a little bit confidence in flying stalls with the swings. This is the only thing we have. It's not about to do a clean stall to get perfection. I want to have a perfect stall. No, it's not the important things.
Get confidence if you have a big cravat you are you are able to stall it and maybe get this crowd out. This is the only things we can do 2 liners. We have folding lines for two liners and in my trainings before we go to foldings line folding lines, you have to get some practicing on stalls because foldings line folding lines are not easy to use. You have to learn how to use it and there are maybe some backups on it because you put it in the
wrong direction. Too hard, too much out, too much inside. You don't release. It's it's super easy to get line overs to get this out. You only have a chance with Storm. Full Stone Yeah, yeah. As we are approaching the last four of the show, Helmut, the thing just came to my mind that as a trainer, as somebody who who, who is responsible for people's lives when they're teaching them safety, how can SIV trainers develop this kind of mindset or outlook on on SIV
trainings? And how can they learn from safety pilot coaching and bring that into their current SIV trainings? Think about your own skills, your own movement, what you doing, how have you your how your attentions. Try new things, try flying the maneuvers straight by yourself with straight legs. Teach Tipper to deal with the harnesses. the Super interesting thing was one year ago I did private coaching, more like a
learning process for myself too. There was Adi Giseka is a well known photographer I think, and there was Melanie. And there was as well, Michel Maura, the brother of Triggly. I told him about his movements and he tested flying collapses, balls with straight legs. He was super scared at the moment because say, what's new? And I was super scared to teach him because I'll say how I have the right to tell him a 10 years experience test by that to do something new.
It's me on the radio. I can't tell you anything. And he was like, well, I'm flying now out like a Stew. That for him was as well scary in this moment. And he tried it. He tested the speed. It collapsed with AB wing mid B wing with straight legs. And he says I'm impressed because it's not anymore to react to what we get when we test it, stay on speed bar different things. And then he go for stalls and helis in straight legs and he say, oh, that's working.
But here's one. But he on the other hand, he says, well, I'm not sure normal pilots, people, they learned it in a different way, can change the mindset to this setup and say, OK, that's my job. This is one like try new things, try to fly the straight legs, try to think look on your hips what you doing, how your attention where you move. Important is let people do mistakes. Don't be oh that was bad. That was not perfect, but you have to do mistakes that you can learn something out of it.
And this mistakes should be not on a rescue. It should be possible to clean up. That means look at the people precise what they're doing with their arms. And I think everyone who is already some years in flying find himself like me. I see like a sea star, the arms and legs spread out and in here because something happens. It's happened to me. Like if you're going upright from the heartless, your legs go anywhere, your hands stay anywhere.
If you get a because it's a stress moment and then you go ah what I'm doing and that's OK to see human reaction but then tell them it's OK. Find back in a controlled position to realise it faster. Start slowly with the maneuvers and give them a step up that. Makes so much sense. I think staying calm for instructor is so important. I've seen so many instructors abusing their students.
Not like does not make sense. The student is anyway shitting his pants and you transferring that anxiety through radio is not helping the situation as an instructor and student accommodations. I was saying I think no one lying out of the lake and say heli now you will shit your pants off Now I fuck up no one go out with this mindset over the lake and so my if someone fucked up anything I want to hey
come on keep calm. I want that he's keep on turning again to doing something and if it's back to basics but he have to keep on going. The TC OK it was a mistake it happened. I got this few weeks ago. It was like 2 guys were coming with Alpena and something else and there wasn't a training. They had pulled all heart collapses in from the first moment on and I could see on the movie he take the A riser and you can see the A riser was lower than his ass. Man, that's not a reaction you
will have outside there. Sure, there are sometimes super hard collapses, but not like this. But with this hard input, there must be very rough conditions. And then you have to think about should I fly in this condition? It takes me three days to remove them, to get little bit less, a little bit confidence because they were so scared of the collapses. And they say after the last training, so it was like, I, I'm still alive. That's not the idea of training. Slow down.
Find a way to push them up. Rise them up, rise, push them together. I think this is a topic which is hard to navigate and in the sport of Fahrenheit, I think where there's so much adrenaline involved, but staying calm is the key. The moment you let your heart rate shoot up is the moment you start losing the game. And that is what I have discovered over a period of
time. But I'm going to talk quickly about maneuvers, the philosophy we have understood and how to have a mindset while getting into this new style of coaching. When it comes down to actual maneuvers, are there any new ones? Are there any different physical activities that you make your students do? Or is it still based on the same usual SIV syllabus that we have had over the period of years? I'm sure there is them and nervous are still the same. We have to winger was we have to
side collapses. We have the ears. We still have to be stall. We have a lot of different kinds of spots. The stalls we create the spin stall to get into a flying back position. We have what I removed from the trainings. It's the full negative spin just to keep it on over pull one side, keep on going and thriller the same negative spin because the SIM movement what is what I needed from going to acrobatics. OK, we have the normal winger was we have the SAT.
It's a movement for me. It's the SAT at this moment going to basic manner for normal SPCS or SO ES because it's the only movement what we have what can simulate a little bit of of an outer rotation proverb. It's the same moving direction. And if I have seen it once, I can realize where I am easier. Then we have the P steering, PC steering on speed bar. They're trying to start on the PCs to work on the PLA and the two liners as well. How can I stop?
What has happened if I pull the PS a little bit outside? What has happened if I put it inside, go on wing or some speed bar On the P lines that we have, sure pitch bundle pitch, but alone we have pitch bundle long with speed bar and P lines. How to change from P to breaks in which time moments, movements, if someone get clean stalls, snap stalls so the maneuver's still the same? I think you almost gave us the blueprint of SPC without charging you Penny.
So that's very kind of you. Just to some curiosity of some listeners that might be there. The easiest way to check out more information is head over to his website, which grows LE minus SHREMP f.com. Be sure to put. That. Link in the show notes below there. It's mostly in German I believe. Is that the language? It's all in German at the moment because I get the certification of my school in Austria this
autumn, this spring. And so it's all in the beginning really to to where we want to grow up. We want to do something in English as well. The idea is maybe if I get the time to do some tutorials about it, but. Before I wrap up the AI norm of the one everybody's excited about it. I was just looking at this PDF which was launched in the skywalk in their sky bait harness in case you heard about it. It detects collapsing.
I think it's about organs say rescue injection all of that for literally they'll have a separate episode coming up very soon for other students. Well like to do any thoughts about future of airlining safety training? What are what's your take on that ever be any of the sport this? You choose hard to explains depending what happened on the wings, but still it will be basics because will be basic moments.
People say bomb. I don't want to go into it was by swan into a draining because it destroyed my stuff and they're right. We'll start what to say because there could be some scratches that could be a harder impact if a snap opening or something. But what I can say from my wonder, if you step up slowly, the risk is less or maybe we get any time, some certified trainings where some companies say, hey, I will give you 3X1. Like if you're 2 Antos, I give
you that. People come and train with the swings. We tried something with Nova last this year or we say, OK, we want to introduce the codex, the C2 liner for people who want to change to do an SOE or an SPC with the this wing. And we got this wings from Nova for using it for the SPC for the pilots. It's a question of money because if you spend 1015 wings for training, it costs a lot about if there's a pool of wings we can order and say I need this wing with for some maybe
selected trainings. This will be maybe a future that people are not scared to destroy their own wings. Give them an option. Maybe something like this as one was a question about if there's a possibility like the German, Austrian or Swiss league, because there are a lot of pilots who are changing the wings every year or every two year and what use it wings to keep them in advanced for using it next year for trainings. Maybe it's an idea to bring
people to go for a training. 100% love your point of view. How do? Community feel a bit more. Involved more safe first, but of course capital rules stall the decision. So a lot of it comes down to money. So we'll keep our fingers crossed with that to be how cold to the end of the show. Any closing pods before we say goodbye for now? For me it's important if you try something out there, be careful, do it slowly and for me it's very important to help my
students. If we go out and explain what we have done, be sure you can explain as well why we have it done. If you are not understand it right or you forget something could be as well dangerous for someone else. It means if you're not understanding, clear what we mean of this angle of attack and break there, there, there, there, there. Think about take your time, make it sense for yourself. If it makes sense, try try it slowly, but don't go out and say
he say that and do that. You know, it's really this is what I say in my trainings. Say guys, I told you I explained to you based on physics, it's good. I know. Now you have to go out and prove what I told you. Test it. Let's watch the videos. Let's find if there is a wrong angry, a wrong body movement, why it was happen, if we can find it that you can understand it.
Let's repeat it. If there were some movements maybe a 1/2 times in every training or saying sorry, can't see on the movie, I can't see it on the analytics, I'm sorry, I don't know, but important this. You have to understand it. If it makes no sense for yourself, don't do it. That's the important thing. Someone comes to me and say, Eddie, do it like this. I say why and if there's no sense behind, don't do it. This is the important thing.
Ellen, listen to your intuition. That is the key here and that is what you're bringing out because of course, if you have the knowledge to follow up your actions, then it's a lot more intuitive. And then the confidence levels and the end results are much, much higher. Got it Heli, on that note, heartfelt thanks for bringing out this brand new concept to our audiences and to the
paragliding world out there. Needless to say, kind of wait to dive deeper into this with a more holistic manner in a video tutorial or some sort of like that which we will connect on. But for now, it's been an absolute honour. Haley, it was a. Super nice, super pleasure to be in your show in the podcast and thanks for trusting me, for listening to me and hope to see you soon.