The variety of decisions you can make during a task has reduced a lot over the years and now you have these massive gaggles and very fast tasks going along ridges and this has led to a big increase in the risks taken and much less variation in the way that pilots can fly the task. There's two big problems with
the drag noodles. The first problem is that really they're only talking about the weight range of 100 to 125 kilos, whereas I'm trying to compensate for people who only weigh 40 kilos to do competitions as well. MRT is multi radius turn points So what it means is that if you are a lighter weight pilot then you can have a bigger radius and this negates the performance advantage which those guys have. Hello, and welcome back to Paragliding Atlas.
I'm your host, Aninda Singh, and joining me today is a man who has won many hats. From designing some of the most pioneering gliders to revamping the scoring system, Bruce Goldsmith is coming out with solutions one way or the other. Bruce, welcome to the show. Thanks very much.
Very good to be here. Bruce, I want to get going right away because past couple of weeks we have seen quite a lot of intense discussions on various solutions that are being offered in the world of para lighting and scoring seems to be a big pain point in one of them. And I'm pretty sure the audiences that are tuning in can relate to our previous episode where Luke clearly mentioned that the way designers put out their designs in the gliders, a lot of it depends on how the
scoring is carried out. So just to get started, why haven't we been able to figure out scoring even after three or four decades of modern day paragliding? Well, I think that the goal posts have been moving a lot, you know, so things have changed and the way tasks are done has changed a lot. I mean, when I first started doing competitions, it was all about open distance. And the first competitions I was doing, we had open distance every day. So we just fly as far as you
could every day. And that was a very famous competition in in Como in Northern Italy. And so the whole thing was based on on on distance flying and flying far. But now it's all about racing. So the goal posts have completely switched everything. Everything has changed. So from distance to speed. Bruce, a lot of times it's said that the way we chase glory at the highest level is somehow incentivizing risk over tactics.
Your goal post change analogy, Do you think somehow we have completely moved away from the fact that there was a time when we were chasing smarter decision making and right now it's all about who can go out there and deal with the most amount of turbulence or mayhem? Yeah, I think that the variety of decisions you can make during a task has reduced a lot over
the years. And now you have these massive gaggles and very fast tasks going along ridges and this has led to a big increase in the risks taken and much less variation in the way the pilots can fly the task. So let's say when it comes to compensating the field, we have struggled with the question of ballast for quite a long time where size has pretty much defined on how your glide will be or what your performance will be.
So you have seen the industry evolve for more than 4 decades I believe, you know, be as as as a racer yourself or as a designer or somebody who kind of goes behind the legislation. Can we hope for an eventual solution in near future or is this a debatable topic that will more or less reach a stalemate because the opinions will always differ and we humans will find it hard to come to consensus for when it comes to chasing glory and and deciding who's the best in the sky.
Well, I think part of the problem is the way the rules have been written that people have actually been ignoring this issue of size, and the size problem has become worse and worse over the years. One of the classic problems is the problem of the load test for gliders. Normally most manufacturers, they load test the large size and then put the large lines on the smaller size gliders, which obviously increases the performance advantage for big
gliders. And also the way that the tasks have been run and the the way, the the way that pilots and competitions always go to the strongest places in the world at the strongest time of the year. Before we used to often do competitions in weak conditions. And when we have when you have weak conditions, then the lightweight pilots have an
advantage. But nowadays they just cancel the tasks if conditions are weak or they just go to the strongest places in the world at the strongest time of the year. So as this, yeah, as this has become a growing problem over the over the years, I've been trying over the last 8 to 10 years to come up with a solution to solve this issue.
And so we ran the waiters competition where we were using the competition and all the pilots as Guinea pigs to try different kinds of systems to see what we could do to overcome this problem of the big weight advantage that people have. OK, Just sort of curiosity because Weightless and MRT have been thrown around quite a lot in the in the discussion forums the past few days. Are these the same branches of one solution or are these two completely different things that
that we're talking about here? MRT being the multiple radius term vote for our audiences. Yeah, Weightless was was was a series of competitions which I set up to investigate ways in which weight would not count in competitions. So that was the competition. And we started by having weight classes, which is the obvious solution. And so we had three weight classes. They were up to 8080 to 100 and above 100 kilos.
And we ran the first competition like this and we actually found it made it worse, not better, because part of the idea is that people don't need to carry ballast. And so when you have those weight classes, everybody just ballasted up to the top of their class. So it just ended up with everybody carrying lots of ballast. So it was exactly the opposite of the effect we wanted. I'm going to quickly compare this to the drag noodles that have been making waves in
discussion forums as well. From from your perspective, of course, you know they look ugly. They are negating the fact that we wanted to reduce drag in the 1st place and a lot of pilots are opposed to it. From your point of view, is this matching that solution or is this better or is this falling short? What do you think when we are comparing these two solutions? Yeah, for me there's two big
problems with the drag noodles. The first problem is that really they're only talking about the weight range of 100 to 125 kilos, whereas I'm trying to compensate for people who only weigh 40 kilos to do competitions as well, you know. So we're talking about the full range of pilots. And when you look at the weight range of say 100 to 125 kilos, the performance difference is about 5%. So this you can manage to to adjust with noodles.
But when you're talking about the difference between say 65 kilos and 125 kilos, so that's the difference between an extra small to an extra large, then you're talking more like 20%. And Dragnoodles, there's no way you can compensate 20% of performance difference with the dragon noodles.
To make it even more simpler, you know, I'm just trying to break down the whole thing in a way that we all can fathom that what's exactly is going on. So let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, if you have to see the effectiveness of current scoring system that is being employed in FAI or CAT1, where do you see where would you rate the current scoring system and then the BGD weightless class where, where would that come in, in comparison if we are just talking about numbers and then
we will dive into the details that where you know we are lacking or we are better off in in one way or the other. Well, my. Idea was not actually to start at the top level. You know, we're told the, the weightless competition is a friendly pilots competition with intermediate gliders flying it's been C Class or C and up to C&D class and it's not open class CCC competition. But what it does is that it enables pilots who fly extra small gliders to actually compete along with the
heavyweight pilots. And that is, you know, a massive eye opener for for those pilots because normally they can't even be in the air in the same air at the same time. You know, it's such a such a huge difference. Perhaps we should talk about actually what MRT is because we haven't really explained it. I said by first competition we did was with weight classes and then after that we went over to a handicap system and then after that we tried MRT. So MRT is multi radius turn points.
So what it means is that a typical turn point has say a 400 metre radius. If you look at the image in front of you, that would be say a 400 metre radius. And then you have if you're if you're a lighter weight pilot, then you can have a bigger radius and that means that you fly a task which is a shorter distance. So that means it gives you a little advantage over the big guy. So this just compensates for the advantage the big guy already has.
So you end up at each turn point with a small boost for the small pilots. And it's actually quite interesting to see this when it's actually happening during a competition, You know, because what happens is that the lightweight pilots tend to get left behind. And then as you get to a turn point, you all come in together with the lightweight pilots behind and you turn around and then you find yourself back in line with the lightweight pilots again and you haven't left them behind.
So it's quite interesting to see it when it's actually in use in a competition. Bruce, I want to dive into one of these WhatsApp chats that have been going on in the pilots union that has recently formed. And quite a few pilots has their own feelings about MRT. And Max Pinot said that modern tactics do not go well with this. If you're able to see my screen, I'm going to just zoom in here.
And it's said that we are negating the the tactics over here and by shortening you are making those pilots, exposing them to counter attacks. But more than that, something that really caught my eye is that if Stan clearly mentioned that if we are turning before the trigger, because he said that a lot of thermal sources is where the waypoint is placed by the task committee. So if small pilots might be turning before, then they do have a disadvantage.
So let's try and visualize that in this image. And is there a way forward? Or, you know, it's like, yeah, we can't really please everyone, but at least it gives us more possibilities. Well, it's actually very easy to answer that that point. I mean, you know, thermals are in some places and not in other places. And sometimes when you're going to a turn point, you might need to go a bit further to find the thermal and sometimes it can go
the other way. You know, you find a thermal and then the others have to go out of it. So what I mean, it seems to be that what Stan is saying is that if you have a longer task, this can be an advantage. But clearly this is nonsense. You know, the shorter task, the quicker it is to fly. It's very easy.
You don't have to be a genius. So in the end, you have whatever a task of 80 kilometres, you have an an average speed and the average time it takes you to do that task, if you do 100 kilometres, it's going to take you longer, you know, simple as that. And and you know, you gain some, you lose some, but in the end everything averages out. So I would say this is a really a false criticism of the system. Fair enough. I would. I would want to move back to weightless for a bit.
Would you like to explain the weightless concept and how it basically started and how it has eventually evolved to MRT? And maybe you know how it goes further? Can I quickly go back to the last, the last messages that it's interesting to note that they were coming from, well, 2 out of 3 is coming from big pilots, you know, very large
pilots. And there's obviously a very big resistance from the large pilots to lose the advantage which they have, you know, so that's, you know, clearly has to be said, you know that it's large pilots have an advantage and they don't want to lose it. Simple as that. So going on going on to the the MRT system itself, we just ran the last version of the MRT. You know the MRT is actually
changing every year. Every year when we run a new competition we put in new technology and try new things and try and improve the system all the time. At the last competition, what actually happened was we weigh all the pilots at the registration, then we have 10 weight classes which everybody fits in. And then when they set the task, you set the task for the longest task, which is the heaviest weight task.
And then the scoring system calculates how much shorter all the other ten groups need to fly. And those calculations are all based on statistics. They're just based on analysing previous competitions and the performance of different weight gliders. So you can you can actually analyse this pretty closely and the more competitions we run, the more accurate will be this compensation. And so then all the pilots take
off. The start and finish are not MRT, they're just standard starts and finishes and then the task, all the turn points during the event, then MRT and, and then you, you finish at the end. And the nice thing is, is that because the lighter pilots are able to fly a shorter distance that they can actually win the task.
Whereas with with any other system of handicaps, for example, the lighter guys won't actually be the first guy to cross the line, which is why we won't a handicap is, is you just, everybody flies the same task and then you just give somebody more points at the end because of their weight. And that's what they use in sailing, you know, so you just, but it means that they are not up at the front of the
competition leading the task. You know, it means that they are far behind and then they get a boost to their points. But it's, you know, it's a boost to the points, but it's not the best way. You know, it's, it's, it doesn't give them the excitement of winning the race. So that's the whole idea that even a light person can get the excitement of winning the race. Do you think this is going to change like the way people choose lines or like what?
Let's let's try and look at it from the tactics side of the things. Where are tactics being challenged and where is human intelligence put at question in in such a format compared to the conventional one that we have been following so far? Well, with the last competition we did there was actually how would you say when you're flying the competition, it's not as though somebody is overtaking you because they have a shorter turn point.
What happens is you overtake the guy before and then he catches you up again at the turn point. You see what I mean? So, you know, this is an advantage which the big guys have all the time. And then this gives the the guys who are behind a little boost to catch up with the league guy, you know, because of the extra weight that he has. So this is an advantage those guys have all the time and this is just a little boost to help them catch up.
You know, it's it's you're kind of explaining it the wrong way round. You know, people were talking about it being fair, but it's actually completely unfair right now and we're trying to make it. Better, I do agree that that the the the ballast thing which is being offered by a solution isn't the most viable answer to all of these questions.
But what I'm wondering is that let's let's say conical end of speed section was kind of similar that you have to like you're incentivizing coming in higher. So in in here when we are going in for the smaller radius turn point, you probably need a lot more height and you will need to circle a lot more than the person who is coming in for the bigger radius turn point. So so. I disagree. I disagree, sorry. So you're coming in, your glide is better and you're you're
gliding faster. Yes. So you're not having to thermal more because you had to thermal less because you have a performance advantage. And this negates the performance advantage which those guys have. It's not about thermaling more, not at all. At the moment, the little guys have to thermal more. It's it means that the little guys have to thermal the same as the big guys. So it's not about thermaling more, it's about thermaling equally. Fair enough, that does make sense.
Yeah. Adaptability, Bruce, so far, how successfully has this been carried out and what are the solutions that you have seen working out? And yeah, where all has this been going on for like since 2020? I think that is like five years ago where this started picking up. Yeah, we fist, Yeah, we started 2020 with MRT and 2018 with weight classes and and also the penalty system.
But yeah, so I mean, we're just slowly working, improving the system all the time, just working on our own and making better and better competitions and hoping that the rest of the competition world will wake up and see what a nice system we've created and how well it how well it solves a lot of the problems that we have with competitions right now. And one, one thing that's to be said about it is that leading points does not work in this MRT system.
So you cannot have leading points because the lead is changed on every turn point, you know, so the leading points really don't make sense anymore. And so this is really to do with, you know, probably mid level competitions, you know, cloud level, national level competitions, probably not the best for PwC and head to head racing.
But the reason that I bought it out now is that there's been a big question about the safety and the way the top level competitions has been, well, the levels of safety in in competition right now and the MRT is a huge improvement in the level of safety. So, you know, it's just a suggestion that it could be considered as a way to improve
safety in all competitions. OK, just for introspection, say Spake for for people who are planning to adapt this, for all the comp organisers who are listening to this, any challenges that you yourself have faced with this so far? And if yes, then how did you kind of overcome them? So like for like what? What can people expect if they if they want to adapt this in their comp formats? But the biggest jump for we made with the last competition was having the tasks, all those QR codes.
So each pilot has his own QR code and each QR code is different from everybody else's QR code because effectively you've got 10 different tasks. So after the task is set, within 5 minutes, every pilot gets his own QR code and then he follows that QR code to do the event. And this is something which is really new and has, has really made NRT possible at, you know, at, at, at competition level because everybody's using the QR codes now for, for setting the task.
So basically just just more work for the task committee and not not much of a difference for the participants. More or less remains the same. Yeah, more or less remains the same. It's the task committee sets the same task and it's the scoring guy that sends out all the QR codes. Fair enough. Coming back to the leading points tank, fine. You know, pushing bar is exciting. Going ahead and choosing your lines is really a thought process. Like a lot of winners are
decided like that. But if we take away the asymmetric that come when you're on full bar, a lot of gliders would fall back below a category because most of the gliders at least in C&D class are getting a letter in the homologation because they are having different recovery times from asymmetric on bar. So if we, let's say, take away racing on bar, are we inherently making the the the the sport a more safer one to be in? Yeah, I don't exactly understand
the understand the question. I think that racing will remain racing and the main difference with no leading points is that is that it, it, it becomes beneficial to follow other people rather than lead out in the task. And yeah, that's a downside of the MRT system. Bruce, glider sizes have been in question for quite a while and more or less the bigger the better has always remained the norm. So when we look at performance differences, what's your view on that topic and how can that be
equalised, if at all in future? Yeah. Well, I asked the same question a few years ago and I had an engineer, Rene Falcier from Switzerland, who worked on this exact topic for me. And he was able to analyse the difference between an extra small glider to extra large glider and precisely calculate all the differences in performance between extra small to extra large.
And the overall conclusion he came to was that there was a 6% improvement in glide ratio, 5% higher top speed for the extra large and a 25% improvement in dynamic reactions. So that's absolutely huge. But I mean, what are dynamic reactions? I mean, dynamic reactions is the way that the glider reacts to turbulence.
And so you have to remember that if you have a chunk of turbulence and you have somebody with an extra large glider, let's say that the the turbulent chunk of turbulence is the same size as the extra large glider, you know, and then the so the extra large glider will lose a bit of height because he might make some pitch movements, might even get a collapse or whatever and then carry on flying. Let's say he loses 10 meters.
Then if you've got the extra small glider going into the same piece of turbulence, that turbulence is double the size for him, double the size. So it's going to affect him a lot more. And as I said, the calculation is that it actually effects 25% more for the extra small glider compared to the extra large glider. So when you're considering the performance improvement, you have to look at all those three things, glide, performance,
speed and dynamic effects. And that's why it's not just a few small percent. It's actually much larger than just the performance difference. So in short, if you're just going out and chasing cross country numbers then the bigger the better is always the solution and you can't challenge that no matter what. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, personally, I've put on 10 kilos recently and I can feel an enormous improvement in the performance of my glider, you know, just enormous.
So, you know, I can feel it first hand. Yeah. All right. On that note, Bruce, I think we have touched upon the topic pretty holistically and fingers crossed you know the cat too. And like other organisers who are curious, I think they can find a very informative information package that you have recently shared with me and I can share it in the show description below as well, with your permission if you allow me to. Yeah. And we also have this incorporated in the scoring
system. So you know, it's, you know, been used once so far. So it's still very new, but it should be available for any organization to use. If they wish. Amazing. Bruce, thanks for your time today. And yeah, keep flying off. Nice. Thank you. OK. Thanks a lot then. Bye bye.