My name is m Williams Phelps. This is Paper Ghosts, a Season one update. It's been more than a year since Season one of Paper Ghosts aired, and whether it be a text or tweet, or even just a drive around my own neighborhood, not a day goes by that I still don't think about the young girls and women who went missing in my hometown so many years ago.
Like any cold case investigation, the work never stops. Season one may have come to an end, but the scores of tips and queries I've received an email, social media messages, and phone calls have only continued, not only to me, but also to the Vernon, Connecticut Police Department and talland County, Connecticut States Attorney's Office responsible for investigating the cases of Janice Pocket, Lisa White, Debbie Spickler, Susan LaRosa, and Irene LaRosa.
I thought it was time for an update on what's happened since the last episode air, talk about where things currently stand, discussed the tips that have come in, and respond to some of the unanswered questions the reinvestigation raised. The first person I knew I wanted to speak with was the man who oversaw a lot of the investigative work in several of the cases, and whose voice can be heard throughout much of season one, Lieutenant Bill Meyer.
After many years working with the Vernon Police, several of which were spent heading up the Major Crimes Unit. Bill has since retired from his life in law enforcement, but the man can't stay away from his work. He maintains a close relationship with his old department, a proximity that has provided him with information and updates on his former cases. So, I mean, since the podcast is aired, what's happened with the Vernon Police Department in these cases? Bill? The podcast
has generated a lot of interest. Again, in the case, we've received dozens of tips, uh and and we're following up working jointly with the State Police in the States Attorney's Office? Has the podcast helped in regard to pushing the case forward? Moving the needle? The wide publicity across the country certainly helps because we don't know who has the information that we need and they could live anywhere. In reaching such a broad audience has been very helpful
for investigators not working these cases. I'd like to say that a smoking gun tip came in and resolved one or more of the cases. But of course that is not how cold case investigation unfolds. The fact is this is a time consuming process, more than most people can understand. It's a hurry up and weight scenario that plagues so many of these cases, which I have run into time and again. I personally can only move things so far.
Then it's up to law enforcement, and law enforcement has contemporary priorities and budget restrictions prohibiting them from dedicating any serious time or person power to these older cases. I asked Bill what he thought was going to happen next. He gave me the stock reply, we don't know. I mean, these girls advantage without a trace, and we've been working since they disappeared to try and find them, and we're
looking for answers. What else can the guys say? Really, what I can report is that the Conecticut State Police did make a big push to investigate the Crystal Lake areas I focused on in the podcast, after hearing about the canine search featured in the show. The state Police brought in their own dogs and conducted a search of their own. They marked several areas of interest. They made
their presence known. They had the Wendells, the couple who owns the property where the searches took place, believing they were interested in results. Yet after the final podcast episode air, the State Police disappeared once again stopped returning calls. And I am not saying this to diss them in any way. This is a fact. It's what happened. The Window family, who were also featured in season one, were extremely disappointed. They wanted to see some sort of action based on
where the State Police canines and my canines hit. The State Police even told them they were going to bring in ground penetrating radar to take a closer look underground. Sadly, they did nothing, So once again I decided to do the work myself. It's Peter hy right, let's see you. Ground penetrating radar, or GPR, as it's more commonly called. It's a nondestructive way to search underground and detect buried
or hidden remains. It is a fairly precise scientific way of searching underground without digging holes and spending days, even weeks sifting through dirt and rocks like an archaeologist hoping to find fragments of a body. The idea is to detect what are called subsurface caves in the underground landscape
using radiograms to penetrate the earth. As crime scene expert Peter Valentin explained to me, cold case investigation or reinvestigating cases that seem to have run their course, is tedious work. But there are tasks that can be done with these
cold cases. And you know this better than anybody. If you assume that what the initial investigators did was correct, you're gonna wind up at the same dead end they did right, And so you have to go back and reread everything and see what's wrong with it, or to you know, reinterview those people and listen for what never made it into the reports the first six times they were written, and also to reinterview people. Peter is an
old friend. He's had a distinguished career with the Connecticut State Police and retired in two thousand eleven as a detective from the Major Crime Squad. His work encompassed homicide, suspicious death, and major crime scene investigations. He was a member of Connecticut's elite Urban Search and Rescue team, which means he'd had extensive training in detecting criminal activity at a major disaster, and has functioned as a rescue specialist
focused on saving injured and trapped to victims. Peter now teaches at the Henry C. Lee College of Criminal Justice and Forensic Sciences at the University of New Haven. After listening to season one, it was Peter's colleague Dr Claire Glenn, who I have also known for many years, who offered up the institute's ground penetrating radar as a way for us to search the Wendell property. So one day were the summer, we all met up at the Wendell property.
So this stuff looks pretty basic. Uh, the equipment, Yeah, it's old school, but it's definitely you know what it is. It's just there's a limit to what you can do. When you're looking into the ground. It's kind of difficult, and reading it must be difficult. Yeah, that's actually so. I was actually practicing yesterday in my neighborhood and just looking at things making sure that I'm reading that the right way. Does it work like a like say, a
fish finder, same same idea cruder than that? Really? Oh yeah, wait till you see the the energies, You'll see it's just what the hell is that good? I don't know. And then you take it back to the lab and you look at it. So, yeah, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take pictures of it. We're gonna market if if it's something really good, we can market if we need to. But I think since it's so localized, what you have there is good enough. Based on where the canines I arranged to come up in showed the
most interest. There are two main areas were focused on. Checking out near that a frame well and the flower memorial I mentioned in season one. Starting at the well, there's a large piece of rock directly behind it where the dogs hit it juts out into a ledge. Think of Volkswagen sized boulder that we're thinking is actually the tip of a larger boulder buried under ground. I watch as Peter begins tracing a pattern with the GPR equipment north to south, east to west, working towards the place
marker where the dogs hit on. I mean, so you're just running that over the ground like you're cutting the lawn, but very very very slowly. And as you can see with each pass, you see how yeah there's a change. Yeah, And it gives you the depth approximate FET so you're closer to year should see the ledge, right, they're looking at that right there. See that's constant from two to five, from half to five. How deep is a resolution? But uh,
where we are right now, probably twelve feet. Most bodies are not buried more than eighteen inches underground a killer and in these cases we're talking about a hasty type of burial. If there are bodies near Crystal Lake, is not going to dig a two, three or six ft grave to bury a body. That only happens in the movies. Therefore, GPR can be a highly effective tool to search a wide area underground and determine the best spots Fenny to perform an excavation. The average body is no more than
eighteen inches. No one's taking six f I was gonna say, if I didn't even make a bad joke about Connecticut, you don't even go that far because you're just constantly hitting fieldstone. So what ends up happening is it's six inches below the ground and you just have field stone
all over the top of them. Peter outlines the reality of all this that we are basically looking for a needle in a haystack out here, And as we discussed it further, Peter mentions that if the a frame well, which is where the original tip from the witness was centered, is now cemented all the way down. The most likely scenario is that a body could have been buried under that cement, if it was placed there at all, or
has just washed away. Just as we're ready to move on, Peter's attention is drawn to an image on the screen. All I'm seeing something at about two ft You see that right there here, right, So that's that's the depth we're interested in. Let's get back to it there, you're right right there. Okay, that looks like a cylindrical object that I'm right over the top of. It's most likely a route. And as these cases have gone for me
over the past fifteen years. Now, just as a mild pang of excitement builds, it is quickly quashed by reality. Peter is content and telling me that he has thoroughly radar the area A few times I might add and that, well, I'll let him explain. Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable here that there's nothing in this area to be concerned about. So he's had We have water, table, we have ledge, we have roots, but we have no bodies. Good body parts,
if they are, they're scattered. You said that you would you would see something localized with a shape to it, and that's not here. There's nothing in this area. So that's an answer. Not finding anything is indeed an answer, not the one we want, but it's an answer. Nonetheless.
If you recall from the final episode of season one, the Connecticut State Police decided to bring out their own search dogs to give the appearance of working on the case and not to be outdone by some investigative journalist dude, as if this is some sort of competition. And look, I get it, the state police have to be political and at least make it seem like they are working
on the cases. But in my world, it's frustrating as all hell, just like how my emails informing the current lead detective of what Peter and I were doing out here have been completely ignored. I mean, look, I'm in this for the same outcome because, honestly, save her a complete omission, there cannot be any arrest made in any of these cases. There is zero evidence. The conclusion, if possible, is finding one of the girls and bringing her home.
So for me, all the state police nonsense is just noise. We could work together, but ego in power and control get in the way of that. Back to Crystal Lake, Peter and I, along with Dr. Claire Glenn and property owner Ken Wendell, move over to where the Connecticut State Police canines hit an area of flat land. I'd say about fifty feet from the area my dog's hit on, so it's not too far. And as Peter gets going,
running is contraption over the forest bed. As he is buffing a wax floor, things get somewhat exciting as he begins to see something very interesting. So this next area here is where the State Police dogs hit and it's marked and I don't know, there's definitely something that what's under here again, we don't know. That's where the doors alerted. You see all that. So there's there's, there's, there's all kinds of activity there. It's like an opening down there somewhere.
And this is different too, This isn't that's an anomaly. Yeah, Peter is definitely seeing something he has not seen all day, and it interests him greatly. I've not seen this type of concerned or concentrated focus on his face. But do you see how they're the one that wasn't a great feet is gone? Yeah, right, there's something here. Now it's not so well, bring this back over here. There it is. What Peter means is that he runs the GPR over
the area. An object underground, long and cylindrical, becomes clear and then disappears as he runs the machine over it a different way. Boom, there it is again, about a foot long. We don't say it, but looking at it, one could draw the conclusion this is a femur bump. It has that same shape our ground and said, right over there's bodies and car. After talking about it, we decided to dig. There's a nervous energy among us. None of us expect to find anything, but you just never know.
And it's all. It wasn't just roots. Ken Wendell continues digging, and as he meanders the shovel over thick and long roots, he comes across a rather long, skinny rock and Peter makes an observation, I mean that's what I was seeing. Yeah, you know, good, you can actually hear Ken hit a rock here, That's what I was seeing. Keep working towards this. Oh yeah, I don't think you need to go much further than that. And so what has been a common theme for the past twelve years as I investigated these
cases continues. What it first seemed promising like maybe a break leading somewhere turns into another stone blocking a path. We searched several more areas, including the so called bunker area near where the Irene LaRosa Flower Memorial is located, an area the search dogs were not interested in, and
we found absolutely nothing. I am disappointed, yet in some respects I am happy to report that, after all we did on the Wendell property and across the street closer to the LaRosa property, I do not believe any of the girls are in this area, and if they were at one time, fifty years has taken that prospect away.
I thought i'd end this update with the conversational Q and A, facilitated by my executive producer, Christina Everett, who is the wizard behind the curtain really with all things paper Ghosts and my new weekly true crime podcast, Crossing the Line with Them William Phelps. Christina was instrumental in keeping me in check and keeping me on track during season one and played the same role in season two,
which you might have heard her on Thanks. So I'm excited to be here and to be able to talk to you about you know, what happened behind the scenes of Paper Ghosts. And We've gotten a lot of feedback and emails, and I'd love to talk to you know specifically about you know, what's the general consensus of the tips that you receive. Well, the tips I feel are legit.
The problem is time someone will tell me that forty five years ago a man with a similar description to those in the podcast pulled over a similar vehicle and tried to abduct me. The other popular tip sadly my father lived in the area and molested me and other kids in the neighborhood. I mean, this is horrible. I I feel for these people, but there's really not much I can do with that information. All of these men are dead, and with a fifty year old potential abduction tip,
there's nothing to go on along those lines. Didn't you get a solid tip though about Bob Larrossa. Boy? Did I ever? A former cop? He's working in the Rockville near the LaRosa home. On the evening Susan LaRosa went missing. He contacts me and I quote from seventy n I was a Vernon police officer. I knew Bob lar Rosa on the day that Bob's wife, Susan went missing. I was assigned the police department's portable number one beat, which was foot patrol in the Rockville section of town. It
was some time after five pm that day. This source goes on to explain to me it wasn't even dark out yet. He says he's walking near the old water Fountain in the rock Fill section, which is a five minute walk from the Larrosso apartment. Bob LaRosa approaches him. Bob appeared very upset, acting nervous, quote almost in panic mode. Bob said he wanted to report his wife missing, further stating she had gone to the store earlier and hasn't
returned home yet. My source says I then told Bobby he'd have to wait twenty four hours before he could make an official missing person report. I can't recall his response, but it always bothered me the way he acted that day, more nervous that maybe he knew where Susan was. I mean, I'm thinking about this, and it's like, so Susan goes out to the store, she doesn't come back for an hour or so, and Bob's already wanting to report her missing. That's strange to me. Yeah, well, what about our other
man in question, the witness. Did you get any other additional information or tips about him? I did get some bonus information, if you will, about the witness. Someone close to the witness told me about a day when the witness he just up and left town without telling anyone. Here's what my source said. Quote Suddenly, without warning or any sort of announcement, he was gone. No one in the family knew where he went or why he left. The sudden exit from town baffled everyone who knew them
end quote. So the witness's disappearance was a mystery to those he was closest to. And it's right after the witness's departure from town that my source here quote began hearing family members make comments about Susan and Bob the Rosa, and he recalls one of the family members saying something about the witness quote probably had something to do with
that LaRosa woman. I mean. And it's things like this that I wish we were able to include in the show, but sometimes it was a matter of timing or you know, not being able to firm up enough sources to include it. So I'm glad we can address that now. Here's the thing. This source also told me that Bob LaRosa and the witness were quote tied to the hip. He remembers hearing from family that the two of them were the last to see some girl at a party in Rockville one night,
and then she was missing. That's remarkable. And to clarify, you're not just saying this like based off of one single email. I mean, you really research every single tip that you get, and the things that you share are not just gossip. So are there any other tips that you received that we haven't touched on? You know? I I received other tips I think embrace a bit of validity within the scope of the cases too, but these
tips require a lot more vetting and further investigation. I did also receive, you know, several psychic tips, which I do not sorry, place any relevance in the One thing I do want to say, and this is important to me here at this stage of the investigation, I'm just so sorry to all of those who have written in and were abused by a man in your life physically, sexually, or emotionally. I'm just so sorry this happened to you. I hear you. I am listening, and your voice is
counted with me. It takes a lot to raise your hand and speak about this stuff, and I'm glad you did so. Shifting gears. Let's talk about the Connecticut State Police, you know, going back to our last episode and the work that you did with the search dogs and the local authorities did and didn't do. How has that gone with you? Have you heard anything from them. I've not
heard a word from the State Police. They seem to think I don't know that we are in some sort of competition, or that I harbor resentments against them, or I'm holding back information, none of which is true. I emailed the lead detective in this case after Peter Valentine and Dr. Claire Glenn and Ken Wendell and myself went up in the woods to do the ground penetrating radar, and I shared with the detective Peter's findings and his thoughts, et cetera. Now this lead detective and Peter know each
other very well, in fact that they work together. I never got a response, So that says a lot to me. My job has always been to report what I feel is worthy of reporting. I don't get in the State Police's way. I don't hold information from them and some people that you really don't hold information from our those closest to the victims, specifically the sisters we got married, Janna's Pocket sister, April Lisa White sister, and Terry Shanks Susan Leros's sister. You know, they were all huge parts
of season one. All of their stories greatly affected listeners and myself included. You know, so have you talked to them recently? What can you tell listeners about them? And and really how has the podcast and the investigation affected each of them. Today I went back and forth a little bit with them about coming on this update episode, and you know, I think they made the right decision and just you know, letting it be. I mean, they don't have to keep revisiting this stuff. It's it's with
them all day every day. To talk about it even more now, I think would just be uh overwhelming. Well, thanks for walking me through all of this. I know these are some burning questions that a lot of listeners had, so I'm glad we could take the time to address them.
With all of that said, I want listeners to know that every email, phone, call, social media message regarding these cases, even if you do not hear back from me is read, considered, thoroughly vetted and checked out, and those tips or suggestions deemed potentially helpful to any of the cases are handed off to the right people in law enforcement. So please
keep sending them in. No matter how insignificant you might think, the information you have is Every tip, no matter where it leads, is one step closer to a resolution to the families. I will continue to update the cases on an as needed basis, and please subscribe to Crossing the Line with m William Phelps. It's my new weekly podcast with I Heart Radio. Finally, I want to thank every listener.
I am entirely humbled by your support of this podcast as well as my other weekly show, Crossing the Line. I have much more coming, so stay tuned. Paper Ghosts is written and executive produced by me Am William Phelps and I Heart executive producer Christina Everett. Audio editing and mixing by a booze Afar thanks to Will Pearson at I Heeart Radio. The series theme number four four two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,