Hi, friends. It's been a while, but Stitch and I are back with a brand new episode of Pages and Prejudice. This week, we're talking about BookTok. elitism anti-intellectualism and why it doesn't mean exactly what you think it means and of course we're also talking about monster romance because we are who we are have fun settle in and we hope you enjoy the show I'm Stitch and I'm a semi-professional hater, full-time pervert. I've been extremely online since the summer of 2001 and I'm sure...
that many people regret how much time I've had to hone my craft. The only thing I love more than reading is talking about what I'm reading. So this podcast, it's going to be peak. I'm Adri. I'm a semi-professional, almost full-time hater with no shortage of hot takes. Tumblr and fanfic.net raise me, and I am a compulsively hopeless romantic. I honestly cannot think of any better use of my time.
than talking and complaining about what I'm reading. This is Pages and Prejudice, a podcast where you, the listener, are forced to listen to our hot takes about romance literature. We truly hope that you enjoy it. But if you don't, that's fine. But you don't have to tell us because we do not care. Welcome back. Yeah. It's been a while since I said that. Yeah.
It's been a bit. It's been a bit. But it is good to be back. Yes, I've been reading so many terrible things. I know. I've been watching you post about them on Blue Sky. I can't say I'm sorry. But yeah, I can't say I'm sorry. I actually hit my reading goal for the year. So I've greatly slowed down on things that I've been reading, which feels like a miss.
But I also just don't have time. You're so busy. There's a lot going on. Some things I'm not allowed to talk about yet. But I'm writing a book in concert with... Like nine other people, but writing a book, which takes up a disturbing amount of time, despite the fact that the book is a year out from release.
yeah no this is about the right time for that like this is kind of crunch time yeah okay because I am not the greatest with deadlines all of my book projects so far have been like oh can you turn this draft in and I'm like yeah I'll turn it in and then like literally last second I'm like here's like a novella You're welcome. And it's like mostly good. Like it's mostly polished. Mostly. Yeah. But don't be like me.
don't be like me but because like this is like the perfect time to write and get that draft done yeah as opposed to like hey we need to get the proofs in and you're like uh proofs I can't even begin to think about that. We're still in the brainstorming phase, but there's a lot happening there. And I have related things to announce, but I can't talk about them yet.
We're recording this episode on November 13th. I'm assuming it's going to go out on Sunday. Yeah. It could go out like now. No, it definitely won't. It's the middle of a work week. I think. it's really funny because it's both it's like an election special but it's like accidentally our first episode yeah so we have actually recorded a couple of episodes that were supposed to come out already but there's some stuff going on in our personal lives that has kind of precluded that but
The election didn't piss me off nearly as much as I thought it would. It's the book talk, bookish discourse that has... followed the election yeah that pissed me off enough to be like we should record a Beyonce episode where we just record it and release it without any warning and so Now we're here. Yeah. Beyonce. Hopefully Beyonce starts listening to our podcast and then like learn something about the common people.
I'm not going to say anything because if I do, we'll get into a flame war with her stans. So. Yeah. That would suck. It'd be funny, but it would suck. Yeah. The only thing that would be worse, I think, is if the barbs... Do they listen to podcasts? They listen to Queen Radio. What is... that's her podcast she has a podcast it's a radio show or something yeah that's where that you think Harriet Tubman was sitting up there in a nice fucking dress that's where that audio came from
Okay. I... Mm-hmm. Okay. I'ma pray for her. That's all you can do for someone with a drug problem. Yeah. who is married to a rapist wild and i'm not gonna say allegedly because she's literally married to a rapist that is a factual statement got like fully arrested for that shit so Um, the reason for our convening today, I saw some discourse and that's not really what.
prompted this but like I saw some discourse about people on TikTok saying they wanted to keep book talk in a political space and like That made me roll my eyes, but I wasn't surprised. I fully expected white women who dominate book talk to be like, let's not talk about politics. Let's keep this a safe space, whatever. That didn't bother me. What did bother me...
is that so much of the pushback to that that I have been seeing is these... sci-fi and fantasy book talkers and I know you know the type that I'm talking about the Brandon Sanderson fan club and listen I don't have any issues with Brandon Sanderson I know that he's okay I know that he's super controversial because like his books are very accessible and people seem to have an issue with that listen whatever gets grown adults to read more I think is
commendable because most adults, most adults do not read for pleasure. Very few adults finish more than one fiction book in a year and so I think I think that his writing especially As a sci-fi fantasy author, I think that what he does is good, like objectively good. I'm not going to get into the quality of his writing because like if Colleen Hoover can have a place on the bestseller list.
I don't care that Brandon Sanderson is really popular. His writing is popular because it's easy to read. And I don't think that's an inherently bad thing. Anyway. Yeah, my beef with him isn't about his writing. All of that being said, the types of people... that fancy themselves intellectuals because they only read real books and they don't read romance or... whatever they've really been leaning into the well if you read anything other than your monster milking smut then maybe
You would understand that books are political, first of all. Fuck you. But also, all books are political. All books. And it's all books. Especially... monster books are inherently political so i posted about this on blue sky and it's like got a little bit of pickup like people are like
reposting it and like interacting with it and i had where is it i was talking about how the book talk influencers that are melting down this round are the same ones that were like oh my god how dare you expect us to read women of you know books by people of color or books with queer people in them and someone replied to me and I don't remember what they said but my response was
I think it's because these conversations are happening largely around like the throne of glass and dark romance girlies, like the book talk influencers who are like, nothing is political. are only reading Throne of Glass or Monster Romance. And then they're talking about what they read as apolitical. And it's like, monster fucking is...
frankly, one of the most political things that is popular in the romance circuit, because it is 100% about loving who you want, using your body, owning your body. And that is incredibly radical and incredibly political. And it's like, it's no one's fault but your own if you don't understand that, whether you are reading it or whether you're not reading it. I mean, even like completely casting aside.
the way that race plays into monster fiction of any kind. Jeffrey Cohen. Sweetie, I'm so sorry that a bitch would ever speak on monster anything being apolitical, because clearly they have not engaged with your work. The inclusion of monsters in art, in literature, is political. because we use monsters' bodies as stand-ins for political commentary. King Kong is one of the most political films to have ever existed throughout time.
there's a reason that they keep remaking it there is a reason that people were so pissed off when they had LeBron James and who was it Heidi Klum recreate that King Kong scene for, I think it was Sports Illustrated. The fact is monsters are political, but even romance is political. To have something to say about romance at a time when people are choosing permanent sterilization over having children, when people are...
finding and resonating with the 4B movement more than ever. We did a whole episode on rom-coms and why the resurgence of rom-coms is hyper-politicized, especially right now.
at a time when people... having babies is a political act but also choosing not to have babies is a political act writing a book about breeding kinks you're telling me that's not political well that was remember the whole response like i told you like the response to the omegaverse episode to the simultaneous but weirdly separate omegaverse discourse on twitter was like how dare you people try to make this political and it's like but
The Omegaverse is a gender dystopia. You are approaching gender as kind of this honest, like this is a bad thing, like to be forced to gender. And you think that that doesn't mean anything. You think that doesn't matter. You think, oh, no, this is just a breeding kink. And it's like, it's not just a breeding kink. You are. And because they'll say it. I am writing this because like I am afraid to get pregnant. Absolutely. So then this is in response to the political.
You're afraid to get pregnant because you live in a world where the healthcare system will let you bleed out in the room. You live in a world where if your baby dies inside of you, some places will just... leave it in there like nothing nothing we like create love experience exists in a background and i hate that in a vacuum yeah vacuum
Sorry. It's like looking off into the background. Nothing exists in a vacuum, right? And a lot of people think so. And I'm like, I'll put you in a vacuum. This is where I get to... bring up once again that twilight is body horror for people who are afraid of pregnancy yeah i've been like kind of trying to re-watch the movies and i'm just like
There's a lot happening here that I didn't get when it first came out. Stephanie Meyer continues to be not my favorite, but she did some things. Yeah, listen. So she did an interview where she like talks about how she loves her children and she's glad she has them. But I think she said something to the effect of like. I only ever expected to have children, which was like a shockingly self-aware statement for a Mormon. But then you go back and you read Twilight.
Throughout the entire series, Bella is like, I have no interest. and having children, getting married. I simply wish to stop aging. Those books came out in what, 2008? I think Twilight was first published. That's... a wildly political stance to have. Especially for a teenage girl. Yeah. Especially for a white middle class teenage girl.
this is just so okay like if you think about and like i'm assuming at some point we will finally have our in-depth white light episode because there's so much to say and theorize and talk about there but If you think about one of the things that came out of Twilight that's really interesting and that was also political was the Twilight anti-fandom. Like, you know, calling people Twihards or worse. And the positioning.
of like the enlightened hater who could recognize that this book was useless there's nothing going on here and it's like there's a lot going on here All art. This is my hot take for the episode. All art, whether you like it or not, by virtue of its existence, has something to say. Right. The fact that it exists means that the artist had a viewpoint.
Right. And you don't have to agree with the viewpoint. And I think that healthy media criticism, like good faith, engaging media criticism is incredible and it is integral to the creation of. our senses of self like a lot of great things have come from people going I don't like this here's why or this is straight up bad here's why in good faith but
The way that a lot of people react, even if they like the thing, is this doesn't mean anything. Right? Like this isn't useful. This is pointless. This is just head empty. This is just kink. this is just erotica this is just romance and it's like it's not it's not like i think all the time about that um courtney milan thread like i
Brought it up a bunch of times because I'm obsessed with it, but it's the one about the tea and the things you don't see or say in Regency romance. Like, okay, so the guy's a duke. How do you get rich? Oh, they're having tea with sugar. Where'd they get the sugar from? Why do bitches have potatoes? Yeah, we talked about this a little bit, I think, when I brought up Gail Carriger's steampunk.
um series like in one of the books in the parasol protectorate series they're they're british it's during the time of queen victoria but they travel to egypt And like, no one talks about why the British have such a large presence in Egypt during the Victorian era. Okay, side note. Because it was really funny. So while I was talking to my baby niece today, I was like trying to distract her. So I bring up this like incredibly racist fanfic from like 2005. But it's based off of it.
Anne Rice's The Mummy. And so I was like, this is kind of wild that Anne Rice's The Mummy wasn't as racist as this fanfic. But when I was telling her, like detailing her the plot, she's like, why are they British and in Egypt? And I was like, oh. You didn't get there yet in history, huh? So sorry. But having to explain like, yeah, there's a reason why like art from a certain era looks a certain way or like the concept of Orientalism.
the whole thing with Ganon and Zelda and Link and it's like yes this is deeply attractive like him big but yeah smash right wood big fucking wood and also our ways of experiencing Ganon and eroticizing him are deeply tied to Orientalism yeah and like you could probably ask the people at Nintendo like hey what went into this so Do you know the game Ring Fit Adventure? Yeah. Okay. I'm scared.
So there's a villain character. For those of you who are not familiar, Ring Fit Adventure is kind of like the Switch's answer to the Wii Fit games. They give you a... what is basically a pilates ring and you attach your joy cons to it and like you use the pilates ring to navigate through the game and there's a villain character in the game his name is drago And I gotta look him up now. He's okay. Make sure your safe search is on.
It's never on. Who do you think I am? Well, Drago is an absolutely massive dragon character. He's purple, but he's just... laced with muscles very much a gym rat and he struts around in a tiny black unitard and um not once did it cross my shockingly not once did it cross my mind that like people would consider him to be fuckable because like all of these characters are they're very asexual they really have no sexual characteristics to speak of but then I was
googling drago just to like get an idea of him in my mind i mean rule 34 is real it sure is it sure is but Once I started, once those images were seared into my brain, I then realized that like Drago is very coded as Black. Yes. Not just in appearance, but like his dialogue. He utilizes a lot of slang in the game. And it's not slang that like you think, oh.
this is black character but like then you start thinking about it and you're like yeah no like from his body to the his mannerisms to his speech patterns like he's very coded as like a black character specifically one that works out in the prison yard yeah yeah
And what's really interesting about things like that is if you say this like on Twitter or possibly now even on Blue Sky, you will have people going like, you're just reading into it. And it's like, I am so sorry your eyes and brain aren't connected. Things can exist. And people can point them out without you taking it personally. And I was thinking, what was the thing?
You know how like all of these people are talking about like their books aren't political or like the anxiety of like, I feel like we're being too judgmental here. And it's like, but no one's talking to you until you say. this thing people going i'm so sad that i'm blocking people because they follow x y or z accounts because they're not we're doing the porn wars again on blue sky oh we are oh yeah
A lot of people have logged on and they're very upset that once again, sex workers were there first. And so you see a lot of people saying, I block people who engage with porn people. Well, because I don't want to see it. Well, first of all, when you create a Blue Sky account, the default moderation settings prevent you from seeing any kind of nudity or adult content. Not only that...
You have to log into your Blue Sky account on a computer and put in your birth date to change those moderation settings. So you're not seeing porn. on your feeds if you just joined blue sky you might be seeing like artistic nudity more like elf hog Just like. But you're absolutely not seeing porn. You want to know how I know? Because I follow, about half of my follows are people who actively make porn. And I never see porn.
on my feed i follow a lot of japanese artists who functionally draw porn and i'm like oh i'm still not seeing it post more you have to work to see porn on blue sky but we're doing the the porn wars discourse again where people are like if it exists then that's a problem for me. It's not even that it exists within your line of sight. It's just that it exists. I've seen people talking about like, oh, well.
because I know people are once again using puritanes and I'm like first of all you guys do need to stop blaming children for everything but also if a if a minor is complaining about seeing porn on their timeline you cannot engage with that either Because that is still a weird thing to engage with because they also have to put their birth date in. So if they're seeing porn, they've done something with their settings. And that's none of our business.
But what I find really interesting about these conversations is like people immediately go, this must be children talking. So you have to let the children talk or silence the children. And I'm like, you know, it's adults, right? Like it's adults doing this. the adults the people making these complaints are the same people that are like are the same people that turn around and say we have to ban smut to save the children
Which is so unfortunate. And I do think, as somebody who's been online from like 2001, that that's just a really shitty perspective to have. Imagine if you didn't have your 2001 internet education. You would be a completely different person. I... I strongly believe. And I came to Tumblr late. I was already, I think, 17 to 18, 19 by the time I joined Tumblr. But those were formative years for me. Yeah. and i think like i for the first time i have like the little 18 in my like username
my display name and in my bio because I'm like, the streams are crossing. I will be sharing adult content. I will be saying horrible things about fictional characters, maybe not celebrities. Tired of people calling me a fetishizer for being attracted to people because I have.
a libido but i'm gonna be talking about i'm not a ooh y'all atri did you just i'm not i know i know the algorithm does to me but i swear to god i'm not sorry that was that was not related to you a plane just flew very low overhead like meow keeps roasting me because i keep going like oh like here's what the tiktok album algorithm has shown me and it's like some like insane shit i'm like i'm not i don't know what i'm doing like i have one where this like korean dude
popped a bottle cap with his titty that's not content i look for i swear i know i sound like i'm gonna stop because no matter what it sounds i'm protesting too much but i'm i swear but yeah with the with the porn thing it's also really interesting that it's happening right now at a point where you are like seeing Like, people go, like, Project 2025. Okay, well, do you not understand that having this instinctive revulsion to being in the same space as porn, whether or not you see it?
is not helping. So it's funny. I'm also seeing a lot of videos on TikTok of people talking about how with Project 2025, they're going to try to ban erotic books. And I was, so my first instinct is to say they've been trying to bring back the Comstock Act for years. We talked about this a little bit when we talked about clinch covers. But, like, they've been trying. Even RWA, even the Romance Writers of America, like, jumped the gun with it. And they were, like...
Yeah, no, clinch covers are bad. We are a respectable organization. People have been trying to get rid of erotic books, women's books. romance books for decades I am not a big fan of catastrophizing right um do I think it's a possibility with the incoming administration that that's a more real threat than it has been in the past? Yes. But I also don't believe that it's a very real...
I don't believe that that specifically is a very real problem because they're already banning books. Right. It's kind of like it's been happening. It may happen more. Yeah. What I've been finding really fascinating with the different discourses, like I saw somebody sent me screenshots from this person like fully crashing out. Like I was like, oh, I hope they have someone because they were like.
You know, the whole thing that we don't really talk about on this, the anti-proship shit. This person is like, you should have listened to us. Antis are the reason this is happening. And I'm like, what? And it's like framing themselves as like the resistance.
over like fan fiction and pro-ship. I'm like, dude, that's not how that works. And also don't make yourself the leader of any organization right now. Don't do that. Don't make yourself a target. But- all of the this culminates in all these tiktoks i'm seeing with all these people like catastrophizing like the a03 is gonna be gone the a03 save your fanfics from now and it's like well the problem isn't solely current fanfics it's what comes next but also like rather than panic
How about you reach out to the Organization for Transformative Works and go, hey, do you guys need more volunteers? Hey, what's your plan for this new administration? What's your plan if X, Y, or Z happens? Rather than freaking out on TikTok and freaking out. other 20 somethings who think that you know january 1st no more you know i think it's fine to be concerned
But I also think it's preferable to temper your expectations, be they good or bad. Yeah. And the panicking just doesn't help. It doesn't. I think I've seen people say, like, they're going to start removing their fanfics. And I'm like, why would you? Who does that help? Yeah, like, why would you do that? People are just, like, really stressed out. And I understand panic. But I just.
It's really early. It makes me think about Z Library because like piracy is a crime, but Z Library continued to exist until Colleen Hoover's fans. Got their claws into it. And yet, and still, Sci-Hub continues to exist. Mobilism has been around for like 15 years. Like, they took the Pirate Bay down and then 50 million mirrors. popped up the same year we now we are not advocating for piracy
Right? Because it's a crime. Do not do crimes. And if you do do crimes, don't tell people that we told you to do crimes. Because that's not true. I'm not willing to be an accomplice right now. I'm not going to prison for any of you, actually. Not a single one of you. So having said all of that, I think we're at a really interesting point. When it comes to bookish spaces, because while I do agree that anti-intellectualism is running rampant in bookish spaces, I don't think that this...
particular issue is where the problem lies. People have always read romance. People will continue to read romance. People will continue to prioritize erotica and porn written or visual I don't think that that makes them anti-intellectual I am a chronic student I work in higher ed and I prefer to read almost exclusively romance because I like to turn my brain off. I work in an extremely stressful job. I'm a program manager. I'm always making decisions.
Sometimes I just want to pick up a book that doesn't require me to think. Map books aren't always on the menu. I pick up romance because I very much prefer not to... I like escapism, but a look at any of my social media feeds will tell you that I still have lots of thoughts about the things that I'm reading all the time, actually.
You know, I think that what we're seeing, like there is anti-intellectualism in bookish, fan-ish spaces, obviously, right? But what we're really seeing is... kind of escapism taken to a farther point like all of these people who are like don't expect me to blank about my books
Many of them have advanced college degrees. They are teachers. They're lawyers. They're incredibly intelligent people who... really don't want to think about what they're doing or seeing or consuming and so it comes out like instead of going like i just want to relax which is like super fair like i i am incapable of relaxation but good for you
But instead of it coming out like that, it's like, and you guys are bullying me for not thinking. No, no one's. Well, I might be doing that. Maybe. I'm not doing that because I'm trying to be like you. I don't know. Like, I think. Because I don't do anything head empty. I guess I write my fan fiction head empty. That's the only way that could exist. But I don't read head empty because I like thinking in terms, even if it's...
How can I put this in my shitty fan fiction? Yeah. So I'm always thinking in some capacity, and I think you are too, because there's a difference between my brain is on and my brain is working. like active process versus passive process like a computer turning on and just like sitting there like I have a computer on in the background just sitting here it's on it's not taking up energy it's just there that's
The experience of escapism, just being able to let it run. I do believe that there is a problem with anti-intellectualism, particularly... immediate consumption at this moment i obviously spend most of my time in bookish spaces so what the actual fuck are my neighbors doing upstairs throwing a party no they're like moving furniture we have these god-awful vinyl faux wood floors and like at least once a week i don't know they just push the furniture back and forth
That's weird. Across the floor. And it's always after I get home from work and I just want to rot on my couch. Anyway. I do believe that there is an anti-intellectualism problem and I do see a lot of it in bookish spaces, but I see it coming from people who refuse to engage with the media that they're consuming.
I don't find it to be genre specific. I don't find it to be a problem like specifically on book talk. I see it everywhere. And I don't find it to come from people who were actively saying. I know that what I'm reading is or can be political. I just choose not to engage with it in that way. I find it... Oh, well, I can hear it. You could go upstairs and fight them.
I'm not going to do that. There's a man up there. Oh, we're not doing that. Sorry. Sorry for that terrible advice. I do find it to be coming from people who say things like, this isn't political. I refuse to believe that there's anything political in this media. I feel like there's three camps of people.
When it comes to romance, especially. The first, you have people who choose to engage with all media as though it is inherently political, which I think is fine. It sounds exhausting. It is. But whatever. It's no skin off my back. And then you have people like me in the second camp who are like, I recognize that all art is political. However, I...
choose not to engage with the political value unless I absolutely have to. And then you have the third camp of people who there's no political value in this thing that I am reading. And therefore... I will not engage with it as such. Those are the people that I can't stand. They're so annoying because like they can't mind their business. Like I've experienced the like.
committing the crime of having a critical thought of media in public and then having those moomoo show up like this isn't political what are you talking about this isn't about race and it's like you know you didn't have to reply to me right like gun to your head where show me because i don't know it very much like it's the whole thing where it's like you know you're wrong for how you're acting but you want to be reassured
And it's like, I'm not going to reassure you. I said blank is about race. And you said, no, it's not. You're a bully and an auntie. We're not on the same level. You're a kindergartner playing with blocks, which is fine. I love that for you.
Because a reasonable response to that is, I understand that there are racial themes within this. I choose not to engage with them for my... own enjoyment or like my own sanity or whatever your excuse is you could even just be like I don't want to yeah and but that's only a reasonable response if you go I like blank And someone else goes blank is blank because they'll be out here like, like, like if I, if you post a movie review and like, like let's take my like ancient Tarzan review.
Like there were people who were like, oh my God, why would anybody say that? Why would anybody say that movie is racist? I'm like, it's a fucking racist movie. What the fuck? It's deeply racist. Super racist. And the 2016 one that took- the normal racism of existing Tarzan movies and base boosted it. And it was just like, what is his name? Was Alexander Skarsgård hot? He was hot. In that movie? He was beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. God, I didn't know that you could do that in a movie.
make money and so like seeing people just respond to a review like i walked into their house and shot them or like for teen vogue i did something where i talked about like how people were being really weird about bucky in something i think the winter soldier like his arm comes off and and people are like falcon and the winter soldier okay
that one and then they're like this is this it's abusing bucky and it's ableism and i was like i remember that discourse and it was like i wrote the article talking about like it's not ableist like it's a weapon he's being literally disarmed it does get played for jokes but he it's a weapon and people were literally like crying shit and throwing up like oh my god this is this is
ableism and you're saying that i have to like this i was like i don't like this i like this series don't accuse me of liking this series and you also see You know, we've talked a lot about Interview with the Vampire. And in your time being offline, I have been extra online. Adri. Some fans. Okay. Came from England to Louisiana.
And they did two plantation tours. Why do they always go to plantations? And one of them, the one where we'll give them the benefit of the doubt, was the plantation where the 1994 film was shot. So I'm like, okay. You guys are show fans, but okay, I'll allow it. But they then went to a haunted plantation tour and it's like, that's gross. But they also took their little Funko Pop of movie Louie, who's white.
to those plantations and took pictures and upon people going what the fuck that's racist i don't care that you have one black person with you or that there's like an armand cosplayer there you know They're like, well, Americans are the be all and end all of racism. Like it works different in England. You went to Louisiana to a plantation. You're damn right. We're going to talk about American racism because you are partaking in it.
Why would you, as a British white, come to the American South to engage with...
The commodification of slavery. Because that's what plantations tours are. Yeah. And it's... Fandom tourism doesn't really... A lot of fandom behaviors don't like... use common sense but fandom tourism really is about the hive being in the place and having the experience so a lot of fans who partake in it especially for things like our flag means death or interview with the vampire, never stop to think like, I shouldn't do this because they're just like, well, Steed Bonnet died here.
This would be where Louis went to church. They also took photos in a historically Black church that I'm deeply annoyed by. And it's just like... watching the fans react like you guys are making this all about race americans need to stop making everything about race and it's like did you watch interview the vampire interview with the vampire the tv show with your asshole like were you doing a goat see with a
third eye in your butthole because what do you mean we're making it about race that is such that is a fascinating um takeaway for me Because of all people, Anne Rice was an executive producer on season one, and she actively endorsed the idea of Louis being Black. When the book that she wrote featured Louis as a slave owner. Let me give you the tea. So I lurk in the subreddit.
for Interview with the Vampire. And so I wanted to see like when the second season finished, I wanted to see what people were saying. And a lot of people were like really upset because Lestat still doesn't look good at the end.
their their their blurbo is still shitty like he just is and so i kept looking and people were talking about how anne rice and christopher rice her son are only like associated really with the show that first season which i don't know i don't look at the credits right also she's dead so unless she's executive producing from beyond the grave no shit she's not executive producing now
But so they were basically like woke made them do it. Like she was bullied into casting diversely. And it's like, I promise you as a 30 something year old who has been in Anne Rice's fandom since.
They weren't going to make that show without her approval. You couldn't make Anna Rice do anything. You couldn't make her be nice. You couldn't make her stop harassing people. You couldn't make her stop being racist. So how could you make her... allow people of color black people specifically to be main characters in a work if she didn't want it and she was awful sorry pathologically protective of Lestat as a character and so it astounds me
This is how I know that one, these people are children or just barely out of their youth and or they have not engaged with Anne Rice or the source material at all because. To read, and I haven't even read all of the books, but to read any of the books and to experience Lestat on paper as Anne Rice has written him is to understand that She did not simply want to fuck Lestat. She wanted to be inside of his skin. And so to believe that they were able to talk her into doing anything.
with that character, let alone casting him as the racial villain in the TV adaptation of her work, is mind-boggling to me. Because although both Louis and Lestat are terrible people throughout the series, it is very clear from the beginning that Lestat... His relationship with Louis, especially through those first 75 years or so, is very much influenced by their racial disparities. Yeah.
Like even in I think it's in season one where spoilers, I guess, if you haven't seen season one in the scene where Louis goes to confront the alderman. Yeah, he the alderman says. Specifically, something about you and your pale lover. Yeah.
The show makes it incredibly explicitly clear. Like, they take your hand and walk you to it. And they make it really clear that as much as Lestat is like... given this designation of a fancy french white he is still white he's still white he still partakes in and you know vomits back out racism
And the fandom is really interesting because that's a fandom where I'm like, oh, these bitches think shit isn't political. These people think I like it. So it's not political because like I've been watching like like when. People tried to talk about how Claudia was treated in the show. People were like, oh, well, this isn't anti-blackness. And it's like, this is literally textbook misogynoir.
She is being treated this way where she is like a monster and also a child because she is a black girl. Like if you are not able to understand the media you consume, that is on you. So I was privy to, but chose not to engage with some discourse about why Louis ripped out the pages of her diary about her being assaulted. And people are like, I just don't, I can't understand.
Because you are not a black man who has been raised by and with black women. You see it in the way that he treats the sex workers in his brothels. But you also see it in his relationship with Claudia. He inherently feels like he has to protect. her innocence as a black child despite the fact that she's not really a child and he's not good at it well that too but like one of the few acts where he is able to actually protect her
is by erasing that aspect. And then Daniel pushes him on it and he's like, I will actually kill you. I think like, so I've always hated Louis. And I actually hate him more after watching the show. and like honestly you kind of had me like tearing up a little bit because i didn't think about like i didn't think about it fully right like how he tried to protect her and that's what that was
I didn't really think about it. I don't know why it didn't like clock to me, but like, damn. Like, yeah, always been a huge Louis hater because. you know I mean he's a bitch he's yeah he's a fucking little bitch and I read I read most of the books the only books I haven't read for the series are the last three the Prince Lestat books because they're stupid
And I think Louis is either dead or in just such poor characterization there that I was like, even though I don't like you, I'm mad. Oh, and the penis and vagina sex that Lestat has is just weird. Unnecessary. I don't like it. But so... And coming to Interview with the Vampire TV fandom, realizing like, oh, you guys wouldn't be doing this if he was still white. Like you would hate him because I think you should hate Louis because he really represents.
what i think is because initially and rice clearly identified with louis at first the whole losing a daughter thing and like pathetic human being shit it's really clear that there is a point where he is her Borbo. It's a brief point. But it's there. And that kind of makes it into the show. And I realized like, oh, you guys just didn't understand this. You guys think this is Hannibal. You think that you're just watching serial killers in love. You don't understand.
the actual thing that you're watching and the layers built into it and I guess that's how you get plantation tours for fandom you know or people going like oh well there's nothing Like, what was, Santiago's not being racist. which is like wild because Santiago is super racist. But like Santiago was just trying to get back at Louis. He wasn't being racist when he told Louis about what he did to Claudia's ashes. That's literally racism. He's being racist.
to claudia's remains he is being racist to louis like and i keep saying i'm just so sorry like if you don't understand the media you consume And what it's trying to say or what it's trying to do, that's on you. Which brings me to another thing. Have you seen, there's a TikTok where this girl talks about media literacy.
And she says one aspect of media literacy that a lot of people don't seem to understand is like knowing whether you're the audience for what you've consumed. Absolutely. I have seen that. Yeah. And I love it because. Correct. But a lot of people think it doesn't apply to them, especially in fandom spaces. And it's like, hey, if you are a white person and you are watching something like Interview with the Vampire.
And you're getting mad when fans, especially Black fans, talk about nuances of race and racism. You're not the target audience. Not just for those discussions, but probably for the show. for the first two seasons come back when Lestat's a rock star i'm sure it'll be very fun for you i mean i think I think a lot of casual fans or just TV show fans are going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise when Akasha and the twins show up on screen.
I want to know if they're going to keep the twins' white redheads. That'll be funny for me. I mean, having seen the Stuart Townsend film, I would like to see it. But I would also like to see some of these other characters.
I know. So I am actually incredibly excited, especially if they don't do the Vampire Lestat. Like I, as in like, I don't want the Vampire Lestat as its own season. I want... little tidbits of flashbacks to nicholas and to gabrielle i don't want the whole season i am i think interested So against everyone else's recommendations, I did watch Mayfair Witches and I didn't hate it as much as everyone said I would. It wasn't.
perfect but like i was overall entertained whilst watching it but mayfair witches was never one of my favorite series so I was never super invested in the lore I am however intrigued by the concept of crossover episodes because spoilers ahead In the books, Lestat plays a pretty big role towards the end of the Mayfair series. I have such conflicted feelings there because I hate it. It was Blood Canticle, I believe.
I hated Blood Canticle. I took it out of the library. It was a hardcover book. I read it all day in high school. I finished the book on the bus and I go, what if I threw this out the window? I was so pissed. I'm not saying that book is good, but I would like to see how they... I want to see how they put someone... Okay. I don't think... What's her name? Alexandria Daddario is a bad actress. Yeah. I think she's a very subdued actress. And... Like, okay, so... I just...
Having her Rowan versus Sam Reed's Lestat would be really fun. He's not, he's, he very much, he has clearly been possessed. by the spirit of Lestat and I think that's the spirit of Anne Rice I was gonna say I think that's exactly what Anne Rice would want I think she would be very pleased to know that he's out here making journalists fear for their lives but i think sam versus alexandria is gonna be an interesting dynamic
I think it could be fun. I'm still bitter because, like, I love the Mayfair Witches series. I really love The Witching Hour. It was like, I got that book and Interview with the Vampire. kind of like literally the first things that I bought when I moved to Florida when I was a child. And I was like, this is everything. Like I took those books everywhere with me. And so seeing The Mayfair Witches, I was like, this... is not doing what I want. None of these people are hot enough.
none of these people are fucked up enough um and i actually don't like the choice to smush two characters together to get the current love interest because i agree yeah because michael absolutely michael and I don't remember the guy's name, but for the Talamasca, the old white guy, they represent two really specific polarizing figures in those books, right? Like, old guy from the Talamasca is old guard. He has a Romani.
that he kind of groomed into like being part of the telemasca he's awful he represents privilege and power and so does michael in a different way even though michael's supposed to be like a rough-handed hard-working Aaron Aaron Leitner Aaron Leitner okay yeah like and to to go like not only are we gonna smush these guys together we're gonna make the some of that black like you guys missed
what both of those characters are supposed to represent especially in later books i i don't really love cyprian as a character no i I understand why they combine two characters into one, but Michael specifically plays a very pivotal role in Rowan's development as a witch. Right. And like the baby she kind of has to be married for that plot line to work. Yeah I was thinking about that and I was thinking about the Mona Mayfair stuff which is
deeply borked, deeply messed up. But you can't have any of that if you don't have Michael because Cyprian isn't going to do that. They stole Lestat's starring moment from him because... Without Mona, what is he there for? right you miss out on the the black blackthorn man which actually that's the one book i don't want ever adapted because black black
Thorn Manor is probably one of the most racist books written in my lifetime that I've read. Yeah. I will say Harry Hamlin is a lot of fun to watch. I like his eyebrows. I feel like that was a drawing point for me. I was like, some nice eyebrows happen in there. I will rewatch. I will rewatch the first season in preparation for the next one just so I can... Yeah. The next one comes out January 5th, so I'll give it a rewatch. Okay. But I think...
I think we've exhausted the topic as much as we are able. Cause like you and I could definitely keep yapping for another hour. We could. I think. I think it's fair to end it here, just to give the people a little something to look forward to, a little shoulder action. You can't see it, but I'm shimmying my left shoulder here. She is. It's really cute. But... I think it's only fair that we end the episode with book recommendations. So I want to ask you. Okay. But before you go buck wild.
Because this is a shorter episode than usual, I think it should be two books, two fiction books that you... You really feel like you're able to go in head empty, no thoughts, just vibes. Oh, see the head empty. Okay, okay. Hold on. My first book... will be Kiss Me at the Stroke of Midnight by Rin Mikimoto. I think I've recommended her before. It's high school girl falls for older actor and he has some kind of secret. That's probably really silly. And they start dating and it's cute.
it's i i have not had a thought beyond he's seven years older than her that explains so much about all of this and then i kept it moving that okay and I don't remember what it's called. I think it might be called Perfect Buddy. It's a Korean webtoon by Daki, which I'm also pretty sure I've recommended. But it's set in a marketing firm or fashion design company.
Not sure which books like six feet away. I don't know. And it's about this guy who moves to this new department and is immediately beset upon by this giant golden retriever of a guy.
blonde huge hot and the guy is just like clearly really into him and he's like i don't know what's going on here and so it's about they're developing office romance and over time you do find out like why the guy transferred abruptly but like i had not a thought during this oh no that's why i had one thought and it was how does he sit at his desk after getting reamed by that traffic cone of a dick
And that's it. And that was a really nice non-thought to have. The answer is he soaks a lot, by the way, in a bath with salt. Reasonable. Reasonable. Okay. So my first one is going to be Necking by Chris Salvatore. It is an older book, by which I mean, I think it was published more than 10 years ago. it's a standalone she is a publicist in New York City he is a vampire that comes in looking to publish a book
Her best friend is a werewolf. And so she is super into him, obviously. Obviously. But... Every time she comes around him, the blood in her body tries to physically leave her, so she springs a nosebleed.
every time she sees him like if he i need to read this book if they if they have sex and he grips her a little bit too hard she gets bruises that like don't heal if she cuts herself shaving and she goes near him like the cut doesn't heal so like obviously they embark on a relation a very cautious relationship together but at one point she goes to
um a doctor i believe he's romani and he's like look bitch either shit or get off the pot let him turn you or stay away from him because he's gonna kill you And so they have to figure out how to turn her without her bleeding out before it happens. Love it. It's so funny. There's a line in it where, like, she's mid-change and she decides she wants to stay.
And she like, she puts it in the pan and then takes it back out almost immediately. And in her brain, she's like, I mean, it's practically still mooing, but it's about all that I can handle. right now it's it's great oh my god it's so funny um and my second one is gonna be a series recommendation
I think I've talked about it before, but it's the Claws and Cubicles series by Kate Pryor. They're all office romances that like... would drive anyone in HR absolutely insane but like in the first one he's a lich and she is his assistant so already there's some quid pro quo I like the assumption of quid pro quo going on but like he needs to do a ritual and he needs the tears of a virgin and she volunteers herself like a dummy and they end up fucking
And then she's like, shit, you needed Tears of a Virgin. But it's a cute little office romance. The other ones are not quite as cute, but in the second one... She gets trapped in the elevator with an orc and, like, kickstarts his breeding heat. And they end up fucking in the elevator. This has such a cover. The HR rep.
like walks in on them after they just finished fucking and she's like so I'm gonna need you to come to my office but then in the third one the HR rep goes away to a conference and like ends up fucking a gargoyle no and then they get back and she's like i actually can't do this um please don't talk to me and then she like runs through all of the reasons why she should fire herself
for talking to him that way they're all just absolutely absurd but very very cute okay and they're all available on kindle unlimited if you have that necking I'm not sure you might have to buy a physical book for that one. I added it to my cart. It's worth it I promise. Oh I have no money that's the only thing. Well I'll buy it for you.
That's so sweet. But yes, the Kate Pryor books are all available on Kindle Unlimited, but also she has signed copies of all of them in her Etsy store. That's so cute. Yeah, I have all of them. You little nerd. I love this, though. I love this. I don't buy physical books very often, but when I do... I need to buy more... No, I do not need to buy more physical books. I have, like, six bookcases.
more perhaps i have two one for non-fiction and one for fiction for seven i have seven bookcases i used to be like them are like like tiny though i used to be like you All right. Well, thank you for joining us. I don't know when we'll be back with more episodes, but you'll be all right. Yeah. Bye. Bye.