174: Burnham Would, Wesley Snipes

Incredibly fast. Yes, we're gonna be setting the world to rights, as we always do, but this time be doing it live. so that is gonna be on the 27th of May. What day was that? 27th of May. that a Wednesday by any chance? I believe it is. And what time would that be, Andy? Oh, early evening. evening. Just turn up whenever. 7:30, I think. But it might be, 6:30. So cut that I think. we should find out. to be fair, they can't do it without us, so if we only turn up at 7:30. Yeah. Hang on

7:00. Phew. Neither of the ones that we completely suggested could be correct. And all four of us are doing separate events around Hay. So also on 27th, Ian, you're gonna be interviewed, by Paddy O'Connell. Yes. And I'm gonna be talking about my favorite books that have influenced my life and it says career, but I think that might be it. it. Adam, you're doing an event, also the 27th, about tribalism in politics. Apparently with Penny Mordaunt and Guto Hari. Wow. together at last.

Will you be carrying a big sword? I will. Yeah. Yeah, we all have to. Excellent. That's That's contractual, yeah. Helen, you're gonna be- talking about America 250. I've got a really panel. They're all just so much more impressive than than me. What is it? The hemi-semi-sesquipali-centenary of America or something. Semi- There's some complicated word that means 250 years. 250. years. Fantastic. and I'll be doing an event on 26th at 2:30 PM about my new book.

Have you got a new book out, I've got a new book out. Is that available to pre-order by any chance? Do you know? I think it is. Great news. I thought we didn't read out adverts on this podcast. Only for us, though. I'm sorry, yeah. There's been a change of policy. can I point out my available for pre-order as well? Yeah. plug ever. corner ends. Yeah. And now, from one, exciting race between four very dynamic candidates, only one of whom is a woman, we move to Labor How was that? That was that?

Brilliant. That was good. why we have to do this? Why is this all going on now? Thing is, I'm black pilled about this. I don't think any of these are gonna make any difference to the intractable problems we've got In our, our... So I'm just going to, just going to enjoy them knifing other. the assures that, that it? doesn't matter really That's a Game of Thrones and Succession viewer right there, isn't it? But know what I mean. It's really quite sad.

I think they've got some very large problems in, Britain, but, if you look at the difference, between... K- Keir Starmer obviously now drained of all authority. Angela Rayner did a very odd, mini manifesto where she said she wanted to end freehold. Which is not really that possible, like people owning homes. Okay. Andy Burnham gave an interview the New Statesman last year ahead of conference, in which he said, "I w- I will do more borrowing.

I won't be cowed by the bond markets." Last person who said that was- There's Liz Truss ... Liz great. And also the phrase, we can't be in Hock to the bond markets." Hock is what you are- Yeah if you, go for more borrowing. It was a very strange idea that I don't want to be, responsible for borrowing a lot, and then have the people I've borrowed off asking for the money back. it doesn't work like that. Yeah, you don't get to pick what interest people are charging you on your money, I'm afraid.

So then we've got Wes Streeting. We've got Wes " Streeting. I don't know if he said anything. Oh, actually, he came... So he immediately, He, resigned from the cabinet, resigned his house. said, "I've had an amazing time. We've got waiting list downs, but that's it. I'm leaving." Yeah. always go out on a high note. And then he went to the Progress conference and said, "By the way, I'd love us to rejoin the EU."

Very funny, you have to be quite steeped in Labour law to understand why this is so funny, which I, I understand that some people have lives and fulfilling personal time. the Labour membership are mustard keen on the EU. They absolutely love it. So when Keir Starmer was running in 2020 he said, "I will basically be continuity Corbynism, love that guy, but I think we could have done a bit more on antisemitism, plus I'm much more keen on Europe than he is."

' Cause he knew this was the way it was safe to dissent from the leadership line in a way that the members who were generally very pro-Corbyn liked. Streeting has done exactly the same. I know you think I'm all in, I'm incredibly right-wing for a Labour person, but by the Lord, I love EU, right? It also this secondary, excellently funny effect of stuffing Andy Burnham, who will never be asked whether or not He thinks we should rejoin the EU.

He has to now, if his plan is fight this by-election and then fight the Labour leadership election, if it's contested, he needs to get the members on side. So in order to get the members on side, he needs to go, "God, I love the EU. I wish to be buried in a flag with the stars on It My mother is Ursula von der Leyen." "I, have a big portrait of Jacques Chirac in my office." Whatever it might be. But he's about to fight a very reform facing Brexity seat.

So if he says, lads, we'll all be speaking French by Christmas, great for the second election he's got in his future, very bad for the one now. So he is going to have do some good old-fashioned Ne- New Labour style triangulation if this becomes an issue. But it's, not his only ' cause he's fighting this by-election, if, he gets the nomination, on the grounds of If you hate the Labour government, vote Labour. Which is an odd position, isn't it?

You've got to vote for him In order to Keir Starmer out. Yeah ...essentially. Here's our argument. All, everyone, will saying, "Hate Starmer? Vote for me." the- I think Keir Starmer should run on that. Yeah. platform. You hate me. Okay, you hate me. you hate me. But you hate everyone else more. Can we just come back to Keir Starmer for a second? Yes. Yeah. 'Cause the chucking threshold for prime ministers seems to have been creeping downwards, I would say. Liz Truss, I get it.

I get why she had to go. Boris Johnson, Rishi Sunak lost an election. what's done? Nothing. That's the problem. Really. They've the haunting thing that k- keeps coming out again and again is the idea that people don't know what he stands for, who he thinks he's for and against, what his vision is. So the classic idea of the Prime Minister is that you set the terms of the debate, so people can make decisions because they know what you do in that circumstance.

And what people report from inside that operation is that they don't know how Starmer would jump on something. It paralyzes. But he's also not a very decision-maker himself, so nobody knows what to do. stuff just gets in this holding pattern, basically. With welfare reform, tried to put something that was quite tough, didn't get it, The MPs puked, and then they came back with something less. with winter fuel, they tried and didn't try. Shabana Mahmood's reforms to indefinitely to remain.

V- very hard thing to get past Labour MPs who don't want vote to be m- meaner to immigrants. But you'd have to say, this is it. I'm staking-- we all got elected on this manifesto. You're gonna have to do it." and the quote that I think will forever haunt Starmer is from, Gabriel Progar and Patrick Maguire's Get In. hang on a minute. No, which one is it? They've all got in and out titles. their Get Out? gentleman's... Yeah. I saw Get Out. Out.

No, it's... No. didn't to involve much Labour friends. Yeah. Jeremy Corbyn sat In a chair and plunged the, Underworld. It is, It is, It's Get In with the, But, someone said it's the DLR. It's a driverless train. No one's driving the train. and that's what they felt. They felt that Morgan McSweeney, his former chief of staff, did have an idea of what he was doing, but people didn't like it. Now he's gone. There's nothing. I I thought the most interesting bit of, last

events wasn't actually Wes Streeting going... There, there were also, before that, there were four junior who went as well, didn't they? three of which I must admit I was completely blissfully unaware of until the point when they sent in their resignation letters. But one of them was Jess Phillips, who, people will know about. I certainly know about.

I thought there was a really interesting line Most of the resignations letters with that standard thing of the first paragraph says, "I'm really proud of all the stuff I've achieved in my de- my department. Here is a list of it, But we had disastrous in the election, and I think it's time for you to go. Sorry." Jess Phillips was much more in detail about what thought was wrong with Keir Starmer.

And the line I thought was, rather brilliant line from she said, The desire not to have an means we rarely make an argument." And it's that thing you're talking about. You don't feel there's a sort of vision there that he's pushing through in the way that, say, strong prime ministers like Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher absolutely had their convictions, and they were pushing through whether the rest of the party liked it or not.

I she of course a minister for, against rather violence against women and girls. and she said she, there was a possibility of real changes in that area, but i- it came threats made by me in the light catastrophic mistakes. She was very honest in the letter, and she said basically she jumped on the Mandelson stuff.

Every time that the Mandelson stuff came up, suddenly the government were very keen to prove that they were the, o- on the side of doing stuff against, the exploitation of women, and she took those She said, "Yep, never want to waste a crisis to make advancements for women and girls." would push things then, and that was the only way she found she could really, get stuff done. Wasn't part of the problem there was the grooming gangs fiasco was in the background.

And again, Keir Starmer and his, operation were not keen to say, We've already had a lot of inquiries." " Do we absolutely need another national inquiry? This hasn't been ignored and shoved under the carpet. This is a narrative coming from somewhere else." we covered this quite extensively in the Eye. and the idea that, mainstream journalism from Andrew Norfolk onward, and then local government and local inquiries. I he wasn't keen to take any stance on this.

So even the one thing that Jess Phillips suggested, I would guess, got lost in the feeling of, "Nope, we don't want to go there." Yeah, I think that w- with the grooming gangs inquiry, I think there was a, an argument to be made. And actually Andrew Norfolk before he died said this, which is you could just end up spending a lot of money on lawyers' fees and not actually get any more justice for these victims. They didn't wanna say that, so it left in this... Labor MPs were very about it.

they didn't wanna go out and defend something that was change. look at this with the two-child benefit, cap. People got suspended. They got the Labour whip withdrawn for policy which is now, a year later, Labor policy. This is just-- you have to have, even if you're wrong, you have to tell everyone what you think so they can be confident deploying out and going, and having the with people in their constituency.

Yeah, and I think that Jess Phillips letter was exactly right about that, I also think the fact that his panicked, Keir Starmer's panicked response to the local elections was, "Bring me Gordon Brown and Harriet Harman." Yes. That was the moment, yeah. Which was, I think everybody in the whole of of went What? It's really weird with Keir Starmer, though, 'cause there's a combination that sort of decisive action, but not allies to any sort of vision, it sometimes seems like.

So all of those people were expelled from the party or, suspended for kind of six months at a time, I think. But without any sort of to push that through. when Boris Johnson kicked all of those people out because they were going against his Brexit yeah, it, wasn't popular with people on the other side, but it was at least a kind definitive, "This is what we're doing. This the government's agenda. the whole thing about getting Brexit through, and that was seen as a way doing it.

Whereas with Keir Starmer, it just seemed how many, of your, kind of friends and allies can you make take the fall for you? I mean- ...Morgan McSweeney went, Ollie Robbins went, yeah, there, seemed all sorts of people just seemed to have to fall on their swords for cockups that, that, that really went all the way to the top, didn't they? And it seemed to be odd that you bring in two quite old people from a previous government.

It does suggest to your current backbenchers- that none of you are any good. I've got some jobs going, but you can't have them. Obviously, I'm going to give them to some people who you've already seen before. I have to say, most cartoonists, and indeed nearly everyone on the eye, immediately said, "Can we have. Peter Madison back?" 'Cause he's another, big figure from those years be really useful to have.

And again, I it, is the fact that Keir can't do any sort of management, which you know is a boring thing to point out, but that, that clearly is one of the reasons he didn't, carry anyone with him. It's odd, something we've talked about ever since the government got in is the kind of Blairite comfort blanket. We mentioned Alan Milburn coming back and Jonathan Powell, and it's very odd, for Keir Starmer, who doesn't give any impression of being deeply steeped in labor history, know?

not somebody who kind of swoons over Clement Attlee or whatever it might it might be. To then have this attachment to bringing back Blairite figures. Sort of odd, isn't it? like reviving, like Malcolm in the, Middle or It's just everyone likes liked it worked at the time. Like they've done, yeah. Yeah, why don't we do this again? But I wonder how if that was a, that was something that was interesting for Jess.

The other thing she said in that letter was "I wanted to put software on everybody's phones that basically would b- stop children uploading naked pictures of themselves to the internet." Now, we can have an argument about whether or not that's authoritarianism, whatever. But her way of presenting it was they didn't wanna have the fight with the tech companies. And I think that is a really interesting thing, is that are you willing to identify villains in public life?

So Reform have got a very clear argument about Who they think is ruining Britain. Yeah the Greens have got a very clear argument about who they think is ruining Britain. who according to Keir Starmer, is stopping us being kind of country he would like us to be? And I can't, two years in, I can't answer that.

He's come out pretty strongly about Reform and, their opinions, and he's, I think, flirted with actually saying, I think these people are, acting in a racist manner, which is strong prime ministerial language. But that's Not enough for You Being scared of the tech barons is a really weird one, these guys are not popular. Yeah. I know that weirdly Tommy Robinson on Saturday got his crowd to three cheers for Elon Musk, but I'm not sure the country at large want to give cheers for Elon, Musk.

they, these are quite identifiable baddies that that Yeah that ... it might not hurt him to go up against. they're a bit like sort of water bosses. There are a few obvious villains out there who, you could set yourself against and define yourself that way, I'm sure. Yeah, you can see- Andy Burnham what he's doing there.

He's come out against, smartphone use in school, and he came out at the, maybe at the weekend or maybe it was an archive clip, against VAR in football, which just one of those things that is, I think, unites most football fans- ... is that they hate the idea that you stop a match for six minutes while some people in a shed look at the clip and then you start again. Yeah, And- Experts, boo. Sorry. No, but that referee was supposed to the expert, and he's actually- there.

Anyway, but the he has identified they're... Who likes FIFA? Who likes the FA, right? Who likes faceless corporations that make a load of, of money out fans- Yeah and don't s- you know, FIFA are in the middle of putting, halftime breaks into the World Cup final so they can flog more adverts and make it like the Super Bowl. These people are not popular, and if you're a government, you're you're allowed to, you're allowed to hop... This comes back to your Deirdre Barlow of Tony Blair.

Free- My Deirdre Bar- Tony Blair. But he Suddenly got into Free Deirdre. You jump on the bandwagon. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was when she went to prison, Fictional character, my lad, in Coronation Street. Oh, thank for a minute there, Dave- ... Tony had campaigning for someone the real world.

But, she was on Coronation There was a storyline, and Tony Blair shamelessly onto And then- Yeah ... it hadn't seemed- haven't seen- I mean, the Jas, the Jas Phillips one in particular seemed because not only is it going up against tech bar- tech barons, but it's also attempting to stop child pornography. this seems to me this would be quite a popular move with the public. There's not- Yeah, there's not a huge pro child pornography lobby out there in politics that you're gonna lose a vote to.

there's is ... a a big reform chunk who are fixated and concentrate on defending children. Yeah. this is their agenda. This was the- What about SLAPPs? You're always telling SLAPPs would be incredibly popular for a government bring in. Yeah, SLAPPs, which seem to have completely fallen by the wayside. talked about this, in, in in the last podcast.

so this is strategic lawsuits against public participation, and there's been a lot of, research come out for FOI, requests by various people which show that the lobbying by Society of Media Lawyers, our friends at Carter-Ruck and Mishcon de Reya and places like that, has been very, successful. it's gone completely the back burner. I, again, it's, greedy lawyers and sort of Russian oligarchs and people suing journalists. It would, I think, be fairly popular with the to go up against these people.

It would certainly get the newspaper editors on side, wouldn't it? I think we would unequivocally that people stopping- here. Trying to put us out business- Yeah would, would go down quite well, But none of these things, I think, clear the public opinion threshold. I know, I, see what you're saying about SLAPPs, but I don't think- Most members of the public care too much about slaps in particular. Sorry. No, they though. But they, I know they should. I know they should.

But none of these things, seem to clear the bar. It just feel, feels like a slow agglomeration of irritations that have sapped public support, meaning that eventually no one's willing to go into bat for the government. I, think there's also a feeling that, putting, employers' National Insurance up- Yeah hasn't helped hugely, and the figures are, people are still arguing about them, but not looking terribly good.

Yeah. And the economy is, always something that people will judge you on, and whether it's Keir's fault or not, he hasn't sufficiently well that it isn't his fault. If it's the fault of, hangover from, Russia/Ukraine plus, the next war in the middle of, plus, the, financial crisis, which is still going on, and dare I say it, Brexit, and figures are still suggesting GDP went down, 4% and everybody's lost out. You've got to make that case.

If you're in the middle of an economic crisis, you can't just say, "Oh, it's miserable, isn't it? And I look miserable." You do, have to say why. And the case for the unpopular bits as well. that was the thing with Mrs. Thatcher. She was prepared say, unemployment sadly is the price we're gonna have to pay," which was a very, unpopular thing say, but it felt at least that there was a sort of vision a reasoning behind it?

Whereas I feel the public at the moment are just feeling like the economy and everything, is just drifting and no one is taking any, charge of anything. Now, the other case people make is that, Keir Starmer just doesn't look like he's having fun. And it's easy to see why you would not look like you're having fun because it's... most people have not seemed like they're having fun in this job, frankly. Theresa May did that little dance, didn't she? Oh, you're right. She was having fun then.

She was away on that time. that was her happy place. Boris Johnson was her happy place. Boris Johnson seemed to be having an absolute ball, but I don't- Yeah, none of the rest of us were. No, exactly. So- Even Rishi Sunak looked like he was doing u- useful and important work. Do you think? when he got to have his AI summit, he s- was absolutely thrilled. That was his- That was his high point. That was his thing. And off, wasn't it?

And chess- chessboards in parks and con- And maths A-levels, that made him very happy. 100 chess boards in parks. But no pieces. Bring your own Bring your own pieces. Anyway, God, that's And when he tried to u- buy a can of Coke ...and meet members of the public. And Oh, yeah. And he didn't have any get That was quite good. He up someone else's car with petrol, didn't he? Oh, we're feeling wistful about Rishi Sunak now. Yeah. is what happens, There's always- a nostalgia. The nostalgia. kicks in.

Okay. But you're right. there is a trope in politics that's called the happy warrior, Which is basically someone who gets out of bed every morning and they go, and they argue people. And actually it works in journalism too. lots of these YouTube creators, they just love having a ruck. They get up... r- I... The thought for me of being invited on some show to argue the toss with somebody makes, fills my heart with dread these days.

some people love it, They get out and they, absolutely thrive on it. And actually, in today's attention economy, you've gotta be out stuff all the time. You've gotta seem like you're really up for a ruck. And this is a thing that Nigel Farage And Zak Polanski are both constantly doing. They're, almost n- they're almost never not making a TikTok, as far as I can tell. They're just- They're like 95th percentile- Yeah ... extroverts. They their energy Yeah ...from being in company.

Now, Nigel Farage in the Reform podcast, which I be the only listener to, he has got so many people waiting to see him on stage, and there's an overflow room. So he goes and does an hour of Q&A in the overflow room beforehand. that is, for him that is politics, is people questions, him shooting the breeze with them. You get that same vibe off Zak Polanski. the Q&A sessions don't involve the question- why did you take that money? and why you declare it?

I... He seems less keen to answer that one. Yeah. that ruck is not one having. No. But that that was also the case with Jeremy Jeremy Corbyn loved being asked, "When will the socialist paradise come? How Can I hear more about your jam?" And rather less about, "Do you think we should pull out of NATO then, like you always used to say?" Can I... finish, can I finish? Can I finish? Yeah, All right, love. All right, down.

Now, Let's turn to someone who does seem like they enjoy public life, who's Andy Burnham. Yeah, for some of us, this is, the whole episode is bringing back me- memories of the long 2010s- when Andy Burnham on the periphery of, of my vision for all of that, time. Actually, I was on a I was on a panel with him in Labour Party conference in 2021. God, I'm getting nostalgic for Labour Party conferences past. This is worse than nostalgia for Rishi Sunak.

he is, he has enjoyed being m- mayor of Manchester. I think people generally find the mayoralties to be the right size of job, where you can actually do things, and people see them in their everyday lives in a way that at prime ministerial level has become much more a struggle. S- Sadiq Khan has been, what? He's in his third term as mayor of London now. He's majored on, mostly on clean air and, things like that, and he's, he's written books about it.

He's And that's something he really likes talking about and going into bat for. And Ulez is another example of it. And if it- And he he loves doing, cross-religious stuff. That man has been to a a lot synagogues. Can't, you him keep him out. Okay. But, he, sees the ambassadorial role of being, London's voice as Well, yeah- as being really important. And again, does seem to be enjoying more. But yeah, so Andy Burnham's path to glory is, there's a selection meeting at the NEC this week.

Technically, Starmer has got the votes on the NEC to block it, but I think there would be an actual riot if he did. Okay. candidate selection, again, quite brave person than the rest of Labour to run against him for that selection, so we'll see how that goes. But then, then he's got to, a, really difficult challenge to win that seat. His chances are looking pretty good.

But the, specific, so it's Makerfield on the outskirts of Wigan, and it just returned all Reform councilors in the latest group of local elections. So why do you think his chances look pretty good then? Because he is popular in that area. he's got incredibly good public profile. Who are Reform gonna run that's gonna have an equivalent profile to him? Matt Goodwin lastly. It could be good Matt Win. Matt Goodwin. in beard. be Good Matt Win. Matt Goodwin in a beard.

but if Reform could find somebody with his popularity and name recognition. And the other thing is it's a by-election. It's not the general election. Reform's voter base is more people who left school at 18, more low information voters, people who aren't massively engaged by politics. Those people don't tend to turn out in by-elections in the way that college gr- college graduates, I'm so American.

University graduates- ...people who read a newspaper consistently, all those kind of people are much more likely... like the f- the conditions in a by-election are are more favorable to Labour. But they said that about local elections, didn't they? And then a lot of Reform voters did turn up this time.

Yeah. it might just be that they're people... my, main fear for Andy Burnham in this is what I think of as the Boaty McBoatface problem, which is I think there might be a lot people... who think, "You really want to prime minister. This is essentially a by-election to be prime minister." Yeah. "Wouldn't it funny if we just voted against you and stopped you?" Much like voting for the, a ship to be named Boaty McBoatface. That's the banter outcome.

But- There is a isn't there, of people not, lo- of people in constituencies not liking being used this way. there was the Leyton by-election in '64 when Harold Wilson was trying to get someone in. You're laughing at me. Oh, yeah. No, Leyton, '64. Yeah, '64. '64. Yeah. I was, thinking it was '63, ' 63, but it's '64. yeah. With my Professor Sir John Curtice on- ... ' 64, Harold Wilson tried to parachute in a a someone who he wanted to make his foreign secretary.

And the voters just kind of went, "No, we're not having We're not doing that at all." And then fo- all Right. this is one you have heard of. of. same year, I think. when, Alec Douglas-Home was, appointed as head of the, as leader of. Conservative Party without a seat in Parliament. Ah, yeah. yeah. He was into a seat up in Scotland, And famously Private Eye put up a candidate against for exactly this reason, ' cause they objected to some sort of coronation, and, Willie Rushton ran against him.

He didn't get a huge number of votes. He is still trying. 37 votes, so it wasn't- brilliantly successful. 37. But- Okay. But it does tell you something about the kind of mood on, on, occasions when people feel that people are being parachuted in like that. One last solution. Surely Farage resigns his Clacton seat, stands in this by-election. Whoever wins becomes PM. Easy. And then Josh Simons could take over in Clacton, couldn't he? They could all just musical chairs all around the country.

would- That's a good idea, except that it's the first time Farage won in a by-election. I do not think - Yeah ... he's going to give up Clacton, " easily. Who's gonna buy him a house in, Macces- Macclesfield? Macclesfield? partner. His with her family money. Oh, that's so true. Yeah. That's a good point. He probably won't need a donation he doesn't declare. aren't there canals there? Could he live on a boat for boat? bit? a bit?

Can I just bu- the last point I'd said is, when I read these resignation letters, all of them say, I did a fantastic job as Manchester mayor. I did a fantastic job as health secretary." I think, why don't you just stay there- then and then you can all do brilliant job, and we could carry on. That's what I've been trying to say. Because it's the only time that anyone is ever going to listen you talk about how hard it's been and how you've done- in your job without right?

You just have to go, "I tried very hard and I won the 50 meters swimming medal," and no one cared. I'm gonna write a letter resigning as host of Page 94, but saying I've driven us to new metrics and new global audiences. Yeah, I'm excited. Okay. Great. can you do that after this Yeah, all will. 'Cause I've spent time writing this. Yes. we come now to the quiz. Helen, give us the name of the quiz. Okay. Th- You wrote, this is like resignation.

I was writing the things I was... proud of was writing the name of this quiz. Faction or Fiction. Oh. Hey. Thank you Very much. It is, of course, about the people vying for the Labour leadership- past candidates for the Labour leadership. Okay. With what hashtag did Angela Rayner announce that she'd become a a grandmother at the of 37? Agrandgela. Very good. Hey. Very good. in 2015, Andy Burnham wore a T-shirt declaring that he had never done what to a Tory, Kissed. Tentatively.

Very I wrote hopefully. No, I remember that phase people going around wearing "Never a Tory" T-shirts. it is correct. the update it was that when the Evening Standard cornered at late night at, Labour Party conference, he said he had in fact kissed a Tory. snogging a Tory, her name was Octavia, and went to Trinity College. Oh, I thought you were gonna say William Hague. If Which of the following people has Andy Burnham received fewer votes than in a Labour leadership election?

A, Ed Miliband, B, David Miliband, C, Ed Balls, or D, Jeremy Corbyn. It's all of them, isn't it? It's all of the above, yeah. you saw through my ruse. It's a trick question, yes. very good. in 2010, he placed behind both Milibands and TV favorite Balls- ... in the first round. he did beat Diane Abbott, though. Okay. Who you remember was lent the vote by- to get in the because David Miliband " This is quite embarrassing. We're all white men."

Establishing a precedent that Labour MPs then followed letting a left candidate in 2015. His name was Jeremy Corbyn. That went badly for them. okay, in 2016, Owen Smith challenged Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership, and the Labour left successfully painted him as a big pharma shill because of his previous life as a lobbyist for Pfizer. But which drug was He forced to deny having used? Viagra. Correct. Oh. Yeah. He It was Viagra. He told Piers Morgan, asked about it somewhat inevitably.

Of course he did, Yeah, That's for me and Mrs. Smith to know about." Wow. Yeah, he went back to university. Last Labour candidate that who could claim to have achieved growth. It didn't give him a bump in the polls? Now stop it. Okay. Okay. All of you, think about what you've done. Also in 2016, Angela Eagle's Labour leadership campaign... Now, yeah, okay, remember this? Yeah was blighted by what technical difficulty?

A, she had lost her voice and had to use gestures to indicate her issues with Jeremy Corbyn. Think think, yeah, think to yourself. B, one of the Tory leadership candidates the same time pulled out of, their during her speech causing all the journos to flee. C, the day before, BBC News had accidentally booked her twin, Maria Eagle, to talk about the contest on Newsnight. Or D, one of the banners at the front of the hall collapsed revealing Tom Watson hiding behind it that's brilliant.

I I was gonna say B, but I remember it being interrupted, not by Boris Johnson dropping out, but by him being appointed foreign secretary, wasn't it? No, you're smudging things together in your mind. Am I? I Okay. I think it was- I think it was B. I think it was- You think B, you're going B? the same speech at the same time. You're going B? You're going B? I like the one where the BBC books the wrong person. twin, Maria Yeah. They were both in the parliament same time.

It was B. Ah. it was Andrea Leadsom who pulled out. Okay. Yes. She went for a question saying- Leadsom ... "Can I take a question from Robert Peston?" He wasn't there. Oh. He'd left. Oh. And that, it never recovered. Her whole, basically her leadership campaign. It's what they say, if you've lost Peston, you've lost the leadership, don't they? Did Andrea Leadsom drop out because a CV issue?

No, She dropped out- 'cause she said- No Theresa May won't be able to understand the country 'cause she doesn't have children. An incredible Times front page with that interview with Andrea Leadsom, and then Stephen Crabb had been sexting a young person inappropriately, and just the ti- one day, The Times just nuked two of them at the time. for any younger viewers, maybe the people on YouTube, just ask your parents about all this. Stephen Crabb. to Stephen Crabb.

Just to specify quite what a brilliant media operator, And- Andrea Leadsom was, the full was something along the lines of, "I wouldn't want to say this in public it's really nasty." "But Theresa wouldn't be a good prime minister she hasn't got children," she said to a journalist with a tape recorder. Said Said it once- and- it once- for the younger people you've just referred to, it does suggest that politics doesn't just get worse. Yeah. It sometimes stays quite the same. Oh, that?

was an... I feel sad for anyone who can't remember that, 'cause that was also surely the one where Boris Johnson was going stand, and the morning of his campaign launch, Michael Gove knifed him. and then he he had to go and give a speech saying, "I'm not

going to stand." Yeah. Yes. And then then Michael And gloriously, camera was on Nadine Dorries, who reacted, who'd been expecting him to say, "I will be your next prime minister," and just the, find it on YouTube, the look of devastation that creeps across her face as she grabs the man next to her's arm. Oh. Oh. It's worth it Michael Gove's finest hour. Yeah, definitely.

Okay, riffing on Gerard Kaufman's famous description of Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto, how did the journalist Chris Deering once describe the Ed Stone, Ed Miliband's obelisk of electoral pledges? the tallest suicide note in history? Nearly. So nearly. The Hardest, Yes, yeah, that's where I was going. I've gone back to Owen Smith and the lime. But, bike. It was the heaviest suicide note in history. Oh, Oh, yes. He described, the 1983 manifesto of Labour as the longest suicide note in history.

Yes. I know who's winning, but I'm gonna give you tiebreaker anyway. It's Adam who's winning. Yeah, it's Adam winning. he knew about 1964. In what year? The late Empire... yeah, yeah, When pictured out running- Yes Yes ... in short shorts, Andy Burnham was wearing a replica vintage Everton shirt. from which period of the club's history did it come? Ding, ding, ding, ding, 1980. Oh my God. I got a football question right. Ian and I are still trying to understand the of reference.

Can I, suggest that's a sackable offense? It won't happen again, boss. Definitely. this Thank I would like, to say also- Yeah ... have you he's gone out, jogging again today on the recording in rather longer shorts. Longer shorts. Yeah, I think he decided that was a mistake. I think Mrs. Burnham's had a a word about away the 1970s pants and, yes, Can, I just ask- Yes ... the assembled... and this is a a serious political question.

do you think on the day he knew he was going to be photographed running about, the shorts were an error, carelessness, deliberate? I think he's got quite legs, and he thought he'd- I thought they looked good ... why not show them off? I'm sorry, but I'm, a fan of the short-shorted Burnham. Yeah. Yeah, There we go. we go. that's, the answer I was hoping for. Adam- UK's code for the boys There's your focus group. Yeah. right. Now, for part two, Adam, you have reincarnated as Saba Salman.

Hello, Saba. Hello. Saba of Rotten Boroughs. You were last on a couple of, episodes ago when we were doing a pre-mortem for the local elections, and now it's time inevitably for the post-mortem. How did you do? How were your predictions? Was there anything you were right or wrong about? think my favorite bit was when one of the election experts, and we had many- ... Mm-hmm Professor John Curtice said, "Really no one's very popular." and that for me kinda summed up a lot of what was going on.

Nobody seemed very happy apart from, a lot of Reform, candidates who obviously got in. So I think largely our predictions were pretty spot on. we talked about fragmentation, we talked about the multi-parties, standing. the fact that, a lot of new candidates are coming in with no experience, that's, That one of your points. That was one of points, and not just restricted to a single party.

So I think, if you look at the map of England, if you're looking at England, down the right-hand side, you've got the teal, a chonky teal bit, which is Reform. down in the boot on the left southwest sort of side, you've got the orange segment. moving up, it's no longer a red wall, more like a red windowsill- Trellis maybe. Yeah ... or a trellis, veranda- lots of holes in it. Yeah ... windowsill, something like that. and then in London, you come to London, and it's just a complete mess.

so it's a bit more Jackson Pollock-y, I think- ... there. That's London for you. Yeah. Yeah, so round the outside of London you've got some blue. You've still got some Tory boroughs. The doughnut, as I believe- The doughnut ... they used to call it. Yes. Yes. Like the idea of outer London. I like that analogy. Yeah. Yes, it's more down to earth than the Jackson Pollock, but I like that Yes. and you've got Havering, in the east that's gone, to Reform. some Green action going on.

And then other boroughs, Croydon, for example, that we feature a, lot in the boroughs, which has suddenly got five different parties. So you've got Labour, Tory, independent, Reform, Green No overall control but a Conservative mayor who just scraped in- Oh ...who who we've just covered in the boroughs, which means that although there's no overall control, the swing is with the Tories, so effectively it's Conservative- Conservative ... run.

can I ask about the phenomenon you described of people with very little experience, getting in? What is a more common route for people who are thinking about putting their hat in the ring to become a counselor? What's the normal route which is being deviated from here? I think most of the people who've proved they can do the job come up through the community network. so they might be, a particularly active resident. they've in the area locally.

but what we've seen with this surge of 1,500, particularly the Reform councilors, is people coming in with not much clue. and that literally extends to. not knowing which Council, you've just been elected to. So there's somebody, a shout-out to Kidsgrove News, a local independent news site, which, reported that a, councilor who was, elected to Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council, rocked up at Kidsgrove Town Council, which is a parish, because she got confused.

about the name of the ward in Newcastle, Town Ward. so she therefore- I can... I'm confused to be fair You're confused. there you go. Let's give her some credit. But I wasn't st- I wasn't to be elected there, so you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's this- If it had been a Newcastle upon Tyne and Newcastle-under-Lyme situation- Yes then you'd got really worried. admittedly it is confusing.

Although I would like to think that, most people who put themselves forward for this- Yes ... would probably have checked where they were standing a- and why, and know. and the backdrop to this is that the election agent was a certain Jonathan Gullis, who eagle-eyed readers, i readers might remember. I think he was appointed as an undersecretary by Liz Truss, so- ... whether or not, know, his latest protege lasts longer than a lettuce, I don't know. but The Truss, the Truss magic lives on.

I know, doesn't it? and then over in Suffolk, we've got a situation where the new Reform leader has come in and said, "We need some training to get up to speed. so we think we need about six months of training and then an intensive day for our raft

of councilors." And I think to most people who don't know a lot about local government or public sector, most of us hire people for a job that know how to do it, as opposed to turning up and going, "Where do I start?" we're not talking about internships. We're talking about directly elected officials- Yeah ... who are, who have a job to do and are controlling budgets. But there is some training and briefing if you're " newly elected as a councilor- Yes, of course. I presume.

Yeah. there, there's all sorts of things. There's, you have your political group in a council. you might wanna do your own research, perhaps. But- look at the council handbook, download it. there's also something called the Local Government Association, for example, which is a membership body, that most councils belong to, and within that, each political party has a presence. So at the LGA, Local Government Association, you have your own little group office.

And interestingly, I have been checking, and the Green Party does not appear to be represented, at the LGA with its own political office, which is interesting. they might have chosen not to, but considering they've come in with a bunch of councilors and now control four councils, and they've got these mayors, they might wanna have a presence there. Whether it's the website's not been updated, I don't know.

But it's just interesting, one of the interesting things about Hannah Spencer running for that seat in Gorton and Denton, she's got a family who lots of them have worked in politics, and that was just completely never mentioned, right? It was all about she's a plumber. She's got a a normal job, she's just happened. This is, she's stumbled into politics almost because that would seem to be a much more appealing message to people. And that seems to be what you're about, right?

That actually there's a l- a sort of love for the fact that you're a, quote-unquote, "ordinary person," not a career politician. I think it's difficult. I absolutely agree That if you're a bit edgy, you've got no experience, let's give it a go. I'm learning on the job, I think where a lot of people, who, vote have a problem with it is That you are trusting in somebody who has absolutely no idea what they're doing. I don't mean Hannah Spencer. there are exceptions.

There are people who've been rumbling around their communities- doing great work, painting the community center or whatever it is, being a teaching assistant, whatever it may be. They're really embedded in their communities, and they've, got no, political career. they don't wanna climb the gl- greasy pole.

But then on the flip side, you've got people, like, you know, well, we talked about the Warwickshire, teenage Warwickshire leader before in the last podcast I was in, George Finch, who clearly has his eyes set firmly on Westminster. Is the argument that that the officers are meant to know how to do this stuff so you're not completely saying, it's hopeless. None of these people know how to do anything"? There are- There is a group of non-political people there already. Absolutely.

So if you use the analogy, in a way of, central government, you've got the elected member, and then you've got, the civil servants who know what they're doing. and I think what's interesting about what's happening now, is I'm sure what happens in central government, is that you've got all of these, many, officers, paid officials who are non-political going, "Oh my God, what is going on here?" because all of a sudden you've got a bunch of new people coming in.

suddenly maybe your council's gone into no overall control, so that means, as we said last time on the podcast, that decisions may take longer- to get through. and certainly, on Rotten Boroughs, we have had communications from people who work in councils, whose name shall not be revealed- who are saying, in all seriousness, "We're really worried.

We're really worried because we've had these policies, we've got, kids with special needs, we've got housing crisis, we've got bankrupt council, and we've suddenly got people who have never represented, a local, community before."

some people, as you've said, have applied and they've got no experience, and that there's a slightly different phenomenon, which is where you've got, as we say, paper candidates who didn't expect to to win at all, didn't think they would, are, really just there to be a name to represent their party or the party they support, and then they end up winning. That's right, and I think we saw some of this with the last local elections particularly, again, with Reform.

but I think also there are, there are reports that this happened amongst Green candidates as well. And so what you have is a few days after the election results were announced, you had stories of certain councilors, I believe they were Reform councilors, going off on holiday, because they didn't really think they'd get in and quite fancied a break.

and I think, according to Mark Pack, who's a Lib Dem peer, who has a very good tracker, keeps track of, the amount of councilors from Reform who've departed for various reasons. I think we've had about 10 who've left since May the 7th- 7th- this year. That's quite a lot. That's, quite a lot. In addition to the 70 or so that had left bet- you know, b- from last May, the last lot of local elections to now. and that's money, "Right, yes. Because they'll have the ...those...

They, you can't just appoint new people to those positions. They'll have to rerun those elections. given that, Reform in particular is about efficiency, and, let's not single out Reform here. It happens with other parties as well. but if you're trying to save money and the average by-election and award costs about 20 grand- That's not a great use of funds, is It And we? mentioned Croydon, for example.

Lynn's example there at the moment where the green, candidate was suspended shortly before the election, but too late to be taken off the, ballot. paper. Now this has happened, this happened with an Aspire candidate in Tower Hamlets. It's happened with other candidates elsewhere. and so he remained on the ballot He got elected, and he's currently under investigation for allegedly making antisemitic, sorry, perpetuating- posts online.

Can I say that the reaction to the lack of experience from my reading of the boroughs is, they come in and they say it's day one. We're going to, eliminate all the waste. We're going to free Palestine. "We're going to stop woke nonsense," whatever the agenda is. And then day four they say, "I think we're gonna have to put the rates up." up." Yeah. Yes. And, they come in exactly that. They come in and say, "We're gonna stop the boats. We're gonna fix the NHS.

we're gonna get rid of, with the climate change non- nonsense, we're gonna get rid of net zero." and what they fail to realize is, number one, local authorities have no, duty, no responsibility, no power to do that. But number two, there are s- processes you have to go through. So for example, you come in, you have to wait for the full council meeting to be elected, for example, as the leader you have different committees. There's all sorts of machinations that people don't know about.

the point you always make is there really isn't any money. No, absolutely. They're not pretending there's no money. No. And- there isn't any money. but we didn't hear much of that during the election, did we? No. And I think that, there is no money, and that money, has not been there for a long time. So it's successive years where there's less and less money coming in from local government. So obviously you're having to raise the council tax.

So one of the areas we've talked about in the past is Worcestershire County Council, where they've had to put up, council tax by, 9%. now, that's a Reform council that was voted in last year. and it it inherited massive financial difficulty. So coming in saying, generally the party, approach is council tax low, they've obviously been unable to do that. Worcestershire in particular, if we want to We talked about the predictions.

so one interesting thing is to look at the councils that have been run, by Reform in, last surge. a year ago they came in, say Worcestershire. That's completely imploded. the leader of the council has been ousted by a coalition of other parties. she's been suspended, and her son, who's also a Reform councilor in a borough council just on lower tier, has also been suspended.

what do you say there, Saba, about, people not realizing there's no money and then coun- councils being voted in and then discovering there's no money, This is just smaller version of the entire national condition, isn't it? Mm. I there's no money, We all think there we We all want there to be more money, but there isn't any, and we keep voting for people who say, "Don't worry, we'll sort out more money." I think you've summarized rotten boroughs up really well there.

So I think we just, yeah, cancel the next edition and just put that quote on. Good. But yes, effectively. but that's interesting because Worcestershire is where I'm from, and it's not a it's not a place that's doing badly, right? It went Labour in the 2024 general election, and we, haven't had a Tory throughout that time. That's the city center. this is the regional. But there are much more deprived places in England than Worcestershire.

So that to me, I don't know if you've looked at the figures, but I would've thought that's a social care one of our great themes in this is that adult social care has blown, has just blown... No matter if you've got a fairly stable council base of taxpayers, you just can't meet your obligations, right? That's- No, you can't, and it's not getting any easier. People are living longer.

and there's no way out for any council and so I suppose, Saba, you've been looking at the local elections from a year ago and seeing where they've ended up today Worcestershire's imploded. Worcestershire's imploded. that's, right. Alarming figure here, yeah. But it was quite split, wasn't it? Didn't it have some Reform and some Green and some this and some that and... was yeah ......there was no coherent message from the voters of Worcestershire about what they wanted.

No, And I think that's, just, going back to S- Sir John C- Curtis' quote about nobody's very popular, that this is that fragmentation that, on one hand, isn't it fantastic that we've got all this choice? And so I can be represented and two doors down, there's my, neighbor who's voting in a sort of different way- also has representation. But in one sense you can say, that's great, it's democratic," but in another it leads to, deadlock. and some very interesting characters getting elected.

that'll keep Rotten Boroughs full. I I don't think there's any danger of you running of stories. I can safely say that we are well-served- for color, intrigue, corruption, and, dodgy political characters. You mentioned last time that the, Reform campaign was launched in Sunderland. Nigel Farage went himself and did a 2,000-seat venue, and it was, big razzmatazz 'cause he was very optimistic about their chances there. How did that turn out? it turned out well in terms of they've got the council.

however, not long after they did that, there were allegations of, racism, sexism, and then the usual stuff from several candidates, including one who wanted to melt down Nigerian people and fill potholes with them. Richard Tice was asked about that comment, and essentially really l- low-balled it, and slightly dismissed it, I think, which was I I found that quite shocking. And James Cleverly, who I think his background is Ghanaian-British, was

like, "Come on." It was presented as this kind of, he said Nigerians get out. And it was like he, he explicitly made a remark where he's "Nigerians are,

good for nothing apart from melting down to fill potholes." Like- That's right ... most obvious racism, clang- A- and I think ever heard ... that, in itself was astonishing, but what was even more shocking was, as you say, Richard Tice going on to talk to Laura Kuenssberg about this, and she said, what do you think?" And he said, "No, we're just here to celebrate the success." That is racism with a local twist, isn't it? That is it for this episode of Page 94.

you so much to Helen, Sabbot/Adam, Ian. we'll be back soon with our Paul Award specials. I'm gonna be interviewing all the shortlists for this year's, Paul Foot Award. It's A brilliant raft of stories that have been nominated, and we'll be back, after another fortnight with a regular episode. But before then, if you'd like more Rotten Borough stories, you'd like more stories about what's going on at the national level, there even be more quizzes. I don't know, Ian. That's up to you.

In the next issue of Private Eye, they are available on If you want to subscribe, subscriptions are available well. Just go to private-eye.co.uk. until then, thanks to you for listening, and to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing. Bye for now.