166: Mandy Lifeboats

This is the Peter principle where you come back one time after you really should be. One time too many. One time too many. Yeah. I would say three is three times many. Yeah. I suppose we're gonna start off with how this whole thing unfolded in the first place. were any signs possibly that making Peter mad ambassador to the USA was a bad decision? Yes. The two previous resignations for basically exactly the same sort of thing, which is having slightly suspicious relationships with wealthy people.

It's how much due diligence you actually need to do. 'cause you can pretty much guarantee that if you he's man on the job, he's gonna be in with some dodgy, very rich person. He's not gonna declare that to the people he should have been. gonna open up some sort of back channel to do some kind of dodgy favor for them, and he's gonna have to resign pretty quickly and make everyone look stupid. it's not, hard to work out, is it?

I'm not saying that I was underwhelmed by the scandal, but there has been a lot of that this is the greatest scandal since the perfumer affair. It's the scandal of the century, whatever. And I, kept running into. my, but This is what Peter Mandelson does filter. Yeah. And I also wonder whether or not for people who aren't so tuned into the Westminster bubble and the soap opera aspect of it, the way that it's affected now, KISS Summers now former Chief of Staff Morgan McSweeney.

This was just a kind of like more sort of SNAs in the trough I I, it on a par with maybe MP's expenses perhaps as the most similar scandal of the kind, which is I think it would've validated a lot of people's prejudice about the kind of thing that they thought politicians were all up to anyway. I know there's an element it, which is very much scorpion stings, frog shock. But there is also an element where we promised all of boring process.

We were promised a that treads likely on everyone's lives. And appear to have that. I still cannot believe anybody's surprise. I've made a point about the cover about, Beatrice and Eugenie being. Sold off to, Epstein, which we made a long time ago. But when he went on that yacht with Osborne and De Paska, private, I ran a cover and we put in as many puns as we could. At the time, I feel sleaze sick every Mandy for himself, bankers away, corfu or a stink.

it's not as though, whenever Mandy did anything involving rich people, no one noticed. How can he have gone through? And this is, that scandal's not mentioned in the top three, which are all, we have to resign over one. It was one of the rarities, wasn't it? And, and you asked yourself why not? But it did happen, and everybody knew. Everybody in politics knew what happens when you appoint Mandy and they did it anyway.

not to, I know this is my area of specialist interest and or personal psychological scarring, but the Labour psychodrama of this is quite worth, revisiting because essentially the series of events is, this. Kirstan is elected In 2015, having been a very successful human rights lawyer. But fundamentally fairly apolitical. And he moves his way through the Labour ranks by essentially attaching himself to Brexit, which he was shadow Brexit secretary.

And that's a really useful place to be in with the membership because they were fervently, far more pro-European than Jeremy Corbin, at the same time that they absolutely loved Jeremy Corbin and were very resistant to people from the center and the right of the party having a go at Corbin. But this was the one issue actually, that Corbin was not as one with the membership on.

So when you get to that leadership election in 2020, I went to see Ki Amadou Hustings, and you would not have thought you could really put a cigarette paper between him and Corbin. That's the way he presented it. He thought Corbin had been a bit soft on antisemitism that come up on the doorsteps, and he actually wished that he'd been more, repellent of Brexit, both of which were okay with the membership, but he did not present himself as this radical departure.

But what then subsequently happened is through Morgan McSweeney He brought in this entire agenda. That was the one in which they won such a big majority last year, which was essentially appealing to white working class voters. People who might have been Labour to reform switches, hero voters, they called them whatever it was.

But in order to kind of staff that when the gravity of the party was still somewhere in the Corbin to Ed Milliband Soft left zone, they ended up bringing in a lot of blairites. And I think this is one of the things we, as we're recording this, Tim Allen has just gone from down Street as executive Director of Communications. He was only brought back in September, a Blair veteran.

We've talked before, you've mentioned Alan Milburn brought in to do health, a Blairite veteran, Max, Jonathan Powell and National Security.

Yeah. and this other person who I think will maybe is a landmine for the future, Matthew Doyle, who was a comms person in the Blair era, brought back to do comms for Kier, has just been ennoble by him and is facing questions about whether why he kept supporting a guy who had been charged with looking at child sexual abuse material and then ran against Labour as an independent. And the common, this not Epstein, this is, This is another pedophile just to keep tracking if you're playing at home.

but the, one of these issues is the fact that they essentially, thema, what is the Stara project they just bought in Blairism as a way of staffing up roles. 'cause they're just and a long time in opposition, lost all their institution memory. So you're getting a kind of, I guess for you two who were in a private eye through the Blair areas. This is a sort of bizarre deja vu, right? It's all happening again.

Yeah. Roger Little suddenly we're talking about, again, him, he was the one that was hosting these Sunday night dos with, Mandelson and various other people. he's a yet another name that was knocking around when I first started at the magazine. It is extraordinary. I, cannot believe there's nobody else alive in Britain who couldn't do the job better than people who worked for Blair in a very previous government. Why why would you let Mandelson vet candidates. Of all people.

Why would you let Mandelson do anything? It's still utterly beyond me. But yes, I gather you are heading towards the center. You need some people who've done things before. But do you need people who've done things before very badly? this is the greatest mystery about Mandel, isn't it? 'cause always had and maintained this reputation as being this great PR spinner and this fantastic who can, work behind the scenes and achieve amazing things.

What all he's ever done is make dislike him quite intensely and turn himself into a symbol of corrupt politics repeatedly. I think there is something quite attractive, and as a political journalist, you have to be honest about it, about a people who are really great sources and they've got a lot of really good gossip. But also people who absolutely love politics and love the game of politics.

One of the problems, I, was at the New Statesman during the Ed Miller Band Reign and he ply disdained and politics was, it was beneath him. Why is everybody just plotting always and briefing and, oh, it's te so terrible. and I think Stama has that view too. So therefore it is. As a journalist, more refreshing to spend time with people who absolutely love, like the George Osborne, your Ed Balls, people who just gove Michael Gove is a very good example.

So I think from the point of view of journalists who work in those circles, not only those people, very good sources of information, but like you, they, enjoy the personal drama versus your kind of Gordon Brown, your kiers, who are, try and see themselves as a, as aloof from it. I the problem with that probably is that 99.9999% of people in the country aren't political journalists and are actively repulsed a bit like Ed Miller and I think Kiama buy by that sort of politics. doesn't really help.

there has been a slight change of line, I'd say from Mandelson as this story has evolved. and We should remember he was sacked September after a previous batch of emails was released. he's issued an apology and I'm quoting here to the women and girls suffered. His previous line when he was asked about this by the Financial Times was, it's an FT obsession and frankly, you can all fuck off. that, is a change of isn't it? It's a change of line. light. Pr, what more Pr, PR genius really got a spin.

But But I suppose the question is, and I know the week is gonna play out with whether these files are gonna be released, showing what was known, when was being vetted for the job, how the decision was made. The Peter files, if you like. sorry, but, but his line, and I think this is very important, is that everybody else had said, how could I possibly know this? I didn't know Peter that well. This line was repeated by Peter Mandelson.

How could he have known about Jeffrey Epstein He had no idea who he was. And at that point, even the dimmest of political journalists thinks I better jump ship. there was a very funny piece about the Times, his attitude, the Times, were a very pompous leader saying, Who on Earth thought that Mandel should be trusted and why? And then someone pointed out, you put him on your election podcast and you've invited him in to talk to your journalists. The very brilliant Simon child writing it.

It is a bit of a point. You can't thunder when you've had this person on Times radio on your podcast. Yeah. Why did you put him on? And if you say, I him on, 'cause he's really interesting. He's got good gossip. You say that's their line. What's your line? But the line is, it is all the way to Epstein is, I was lied to about this.

So Mandelson says he was completely deceived by Epstein when he was visiting the island the He never saw any, young girls there or anything like this, except there were two Swedish women there. In one email. So either he's Blind or being homosexual, deprived you of sight, which is a new he still, that was the line, wasn't he? He knew about it because he's gay. So he wasn't involved in sort was, and then the, email comes out of him about, oh, hey, you're outta prison now.

we're celebrating with some strippers called, Liberty and modesty Modesty and, yeah, yeah. But Also in the birthday book, which came out last year, there's a line, a, there's pictures of him with women over age as far as we can tell. But there's a line about how this, there was a man called Jeffrey who would turn up with some interesting friends. So there's, I, they, and, the Epstein files are full of references like that to his reem, to you and your girls, this is the thing.

Mandelson's line is I couldn't possibly known and you can judge for yourself whether, how li how likely that is. But the line of the line of Labour team Mandelson lied to us when we were vetting him, you he said that the relationship over. But this isn't how vetting works. you don't say, you in any way dodgy? They reply, no, of course I'm not. And then you say, thank you very much indeed. That's very kind you, you you have to ask other people as well or just read some papers.

or can I just point out or Indeed command. very clear. On note, what might have been wise for everyone involved be to, read private eye. I, it's good advice for anyone at any time, but this is slicker writing on the 30th of March, 2009. So this is very, shortly after Manton is brought back into the government by Gordon Brown Okay. serve as, trading industry secretary, but effectively number two in the government. He was very much above darling A Chancellor in the packing order.

Slicker writes In uncertain government ministers need all the expert help they can get, which may explain the surely fanciful suggestion that business secretary Lord Mandelson has been discussing with American Money Manager Jeffrey Epstein, the new Obama administration and new powers on Wall Street.

Last July, Epstein began serving an 18 month prison sentence in Florida after pleading guilty to soliciting sex from underage girls young as 14 multimillionaire Epstein, also a friend of Prince Andrew and ex-President Clinton has been on day release from the Palm Beach County jail since October. And so available to meet and speak by telephone to friends. But it is surely too absurd to that British government minister would be talking to a jailbird. So these suggestions cannot true.

30 of the March, 2009. Wow. Was that a case of sort of lawyer induced sarcasm? That's how I think of the tone of that. that can't possibly be happening. because Very possibly. he followed up, slicker, followed up again a couple of years later. is which is when the, the story starts to get slightly circulation.

he points out that, it suggested Mandelson contacted Epstein while he was on day release from a prison to see whether he could help smooth the way for the then business secretary to contact leading Wall Street banker Jamie Deon, chief executive of JP Morgan Chase, to discuss important financial matters, which is exactly the stuff was coming out in the emails last week, about, Mandelson suggesting to Epstein that, JP should mildly threaten Alistair Darling, that then chancellor over the proposed

banker's bonuses, ban, right? So it's all there. It's all there. It's all in the eye. as, Helen says, it may not be the biggest ever, but suggesting government policy should be shared and influenced by Major Peter files. It's, it's probably a bit new, isn't it? I think in terms how high it goes as well. we were saying literally he was pretty much second in command in the government. the profumo affair, which this has being compared to, there wasn't even any accusation.

I don't think the Profumo had leaked anything, via, his various It was just fact that he was, sleeping with Christine Kiler at the same time that she was sleeping with with a Russian spy. in terms of actual leak it tended to be very low down people. Usually the Ministry of Defense was the kinda the weakest place, but it was low down. civil servant. was actually the second powerful man in the country.

It was quite prepared to discuss market sensitive information, confidential documents and share them with, but share them, particularly with an American pedophile does seem quite major. And, the line that Andy's is that everyone lied to everyone. Peter Balson voluntarily handed over the information straight away. And then lied to the Prime Minister. so it's not just passive.

I suppose the thing I'm interested in at what point does believing you are being lied to by someone is a proven liar, become culpable. it seems possible. This is the Cretin paradox, right? It's the Cretin paradox. It seems, plausible that the only world leader to be brought down by Epstein files is Kia Starer. someone who, as far as I can tell, would absolutely never have consorted with anyone Epstein, someone who seems, pretty, square and prosecuted.

Quite a lot of people guess, prosecuted people like this, rights lawyer, this is extraordinary, isn't it? I know. Donald is named thousands of time in the files, and apparently this just cuts no ice at all in the USA. I I think you have to look at it in the context of the fact that quite a lot of the parliamentary Labour party think that Stan is a lemon. the scandal is one thing in itself, but a bit like, who really outside of nerds like us remembers the Chris pincher scandal, right?

In terms of doing for Boris Johnson. But it was finding the accumulation of a lot of people thinking, we are better off without you than with you. Right. And so I think that's, you have to see it as part of that. I know what you mean. It does seem odd that so few consequences have been suffered by anybody in America. A few people have lost a, some TV gigs and some, administrative stuff in US universities So there has been some collateral damage.

But in terms of the political scandal, the fact that Donald Trump fell out with Jeffrey Epstein in the two thousands before all these emails occur, and the fact, I suspect that this was man used to fax mean things to his email, his enemies really quite late into the nineties. I'm not sure he'd ever really got to grips with email. Just means that actually Trump has escaped this, But there's also the fact that he's elected president for a four year term, there's really no way to get rid of him.

So just not that live question in the way. And I felt like about a week ago, there was just this kind of Cent of blood in the air, essentially from the lobby. And, that they just thought, hang on a minute. We like, we've got him. and at that point it becomes, it always becomes very unpleasant actually. George Osborne and Ed balls were talking about this in their podcast, and George Osborne did this thing. We said, I never like this bit when you see this sort of hunting pack mentality.

And I thought, I bet you Shad Having been on the end of it a couple of times. But then both of them ends up saying, I was shocked by the bit where you would be in government and you would just press forward on your email from the treasury onto someone else. I think that's the bit that even people who thought they, and in the case of George Osborn knew Mandelson quite well, actually ed Balls and a sort of frenemy kind of way.

But that, that, I think people were genuinely shocked by that even, and I don't think that was fake shock. I think that was real shock actually. that It was worse even than they thought. Are Are you saying we're not remotely that he consort with a pedophile after conviction, but this email forwarding think is outrageous. Yes. Yes. genuinely yes. On the basis that Lord Manon has always delighted in this reputation of the Prince of Darkness and whatever it might be.

I, And, his lobbying firm had a group of people whose Wikipedia pages have got very long controversies sections, right? this is this has always been his shtick, but I think the word that ki used was betrayal. And I think there are lots of people within the political class who do feel like that, that this is a betrayal. This is so outrageous that you just wouldn't have comprehended, that anybody would not know. that this was just, You should never do this.

equally in terms Trump patenting on it, you talk about lobbying firm, his global absolutely secretive about what clients was representing there. still, right until last week, serving as a member of the of Lords, a member of Parliament, he? And, he claimed that, the rules, did not apply to him as a peer, that he did not have to disclose who these clients were, that, his lobbying firm lobbied for. And as you would expect, everyone a wronging the list is unbelievable.

Even list of, Saron technology is limited. Emperor pal appetite. Yeah. LLC. Yeah, absolutely. Nuclear, south African tobacco, uh, you name it, they're all in there. and it was, again, this is this old hiding in plain sight business. I dunno how many pieces Richard Brooks wrote for us about, Mandy's lobbying firm. but it was, this. area between business and politics. that's described on their mission statement. You think. You think that's the area we don't want.

We want politics and we want and we do not. want you. it was helping clients see opportunities politics. it's pretty blatant in terms of one of those opportunities in of course, was the hosted a dinner for Palantir, Peter Fields, company, with a load of NHS bosses just they picked up an enormous, NHS data contract in 2023. That was one of stories.

Yes. there's an awful lot more of these as well, and the idea that this was a good person to have in charge of your, American Embassy, and I, again, I do not buy this argument that they all say, it was, High risk, low something, appointment. It was a very high risk, no possible benefit appointment. the diplomatic service is not short of people who can go in and suck up to foreigners. That is part of the job. this isn't a new observation and you don't have to have balson to do it.

So you don't buy, you don't buy the, we needed a creature to be in the swamp line. Previous ambassador did a perfectly good job, right. Why appoint a political appointee. There was a, I think that was one of the many things that has pissed off the PLP because that Karen Pearce was welllike respected, seemed to be getting on the job. There was no, there was no black marks against her record. And they parachuted in Peter Mandelson, essentially because he was a mate of Morgan McSweeney's.

And I think that's maybe part of the, rage that Kirsten's feeling is, I think he feels he was duped into this, but he's the one with his name. I was gonna say his name above the door, unless his name's 10. That's not true. But like Ultimately, he's the prime minister. That's, who he's the ultimate decider. and the other thing it really spoke to was a sense that I've been hearing for coming up two years now, about the sense of a kind of little boys club clique in number 10.

And, there's lots of women working number 10 star's, two new chiefs of staff. one's acting both women, for example. But there was a feeling that there was a kind of little, group of people who just got this sort of stitched up in amongst themselves. and I think that's the Karen Pierce thing spoke to that is that particularly the women's PRP were like, hang a minute, you've got rid of this very well qualified woman in order to put in a very dodgy man.

What that There was a kind of, what's that all, what's that all about actually? Because are are no terms. It wasn't as she was coming up to the end of a set term as the You just get appointed. And then, yeah, I it was. a, You are right. The way that people defended it at the time was essentially like, MAGA is horrifically corrupt. Why don't we send over someone who won't make them feel ill at ease?

But isn't the, lesson of the past six months that sending people who are a bit straight, into battle against Trump, like Mark Carney works, and the people who stand up him get results. The people who don't our brilliant China deal. not only have we got nothing at all, but Jimmy Li goes to for 20 years. Oh, that was good. That's diplomacy working well, the whole of putting mandelson in is nonsense. private eye does, we should say feature the Epstein files, doesn't it?

Yes. Yes. And it's not me on plane. it's, a story found by, Robbie Griffith and Adam, about, a lawyer. Tell about him. Paul Tweed? Yes. Yeah. Who's been written back quite a lot in the, are. He's a, Very keen on his job, defamation lawyer, should say. Let's describe him that way. and he was, retained by Epstein for a while, although been very clear, like many people just say, say this week, that, actually you didn't, knew nothing about him and actually, didn't stay with him for very long.

He wouldn't take his advice. so they, stopped representing him in, in, in, in 2011, after come prison for the first time. But, yes, he took great with, the private eye cover that we were discussing, the, Beatrice Eugenie. it was about the time, the story, first story, first of many, stories came out about Fergie taking money from, Jeffrey Epstein, who she seems to have treated as a sort of cash really, doesn't she? Whenever she was in trouble, which of quite often, just said.

Any suggestions and he would wire money. but, Paul Tweed took great offense at this cover and, suggested to, Epstein that, it was a great a front and that legal should be taken, not in fact against us, but against Sarai Ferguson at time, who he thought was damaging, Jeffrey Epstein's reputation. and then the second mention was, it was Peter Mandelson, who, was sending an to Jeffrey Epstein saying, I think you are going need, a good libel lawyer.

again in reference to the private eye cover and the story that Fergie had herself released. So there is a sense in which revenge is, being served as a very cold dish around here. But, that's why we put in the joke. ' cause you said, you suggested to Epstein he needed a lawyer. We reckon you are gonna need a good lawyer. right. We're be staying with this because it seems. To be quite a big one. good Andy. you. you. That's Say that again. Yeah, Promote that boy. right. All right.

We're gonna be staying this story. Before do that, there one other news story that I think we cover, which is that this podcast proudly lost in its category at last week's political awards. I didn't you three at the event. you were all busy I got to go and hang out with George Osborne, ed Balls and others who won big, I was just gonna say all the people who knew Manon very well won awards. or have you got have stayed on a yacht with him? What's, the exact criteria? there?

Have just wanna thank the judges of that, the whole competition who did a brilliant job. they were, Alexander, Liam Conlin, mp Greg appointed mp, Steve Race, MP Tom Rutland, mp. Bar Ann Jenkin, de Mattson, Harry Quilter, Qui pinner, and someone called Lord Ben Houchin, Who I don't think we realized was on the panel. And we might have saved ourselves the email. How on earth did not win, Matt, Matt, the producer and I just looked at each other and thought, wow, have a nice meal. And we did.

He's got no style though, because the cool thing to do in that situation would be to give the award your enemy and a sort of ha i, have. 'cause in he's he's won, hasn't he? In sense of in we're talking about scandals that we private eye point out a lot and no one does anything about, he could be like, haha, maybe you can frame this next to your many, like, reams of coverage about my dealings. good point. that, that's an idea for you next year, Ben.

so anyway, We should come back to the, big winners of the night, George Osborne and his close personal Trump, Peter Mandelson and the fallout that story. Are there, is there, are there any stories that you think have received the prominence they should have? that out in the last week, which have slightly been overwhelmed by political drama and stuff from the Epstein files? Stuff from the files, yeah.

Okay. this, I think is very This is a statement from the General Osteopathic Council, seems to have otherwise gone and reported. It says, we are aware of media that the husband of Mandelson, Ronaldo rdo Avila de Silva, was in receipt of funds from Jeffrey Epstein to fund an course in the UK in 2009. Ronaldo Avila DeSilva did not graduate osteopathy course and has never been registered with the General Council.

Therefore, he's not able to osteopathy in accordance with the law within the uk if he's poised his hands over your spine at this moment. Get off that table. that was one of the bizarre details. ' cause when it, this was the point where Del was still talking to the press and he said, I was just under the impression that this 10,000 pounds was given to his then partner, now husband, was a a sort of bursary and, that Jeffrey was a very charitable guy who handed out these bursaries.

So If you are hunting out charitable you probably don't them to people who have recently stepped down as an extremely important cabinet minister and have quite a bit of cash already. Do you? No. probably some sort of means testing that goes on. look, just loves spinal realignment. A A man has gotta have a hobby. hobby. So we're having all this discussion about K Starer is, former director of Public prosecutions.

There's another former director for public prosecutions who I think has got some questions to answer, which is Ken McDonald. So there's a very upsetting case of a a Norwegian student back. In the two thousands was found raped and strangled, having left a club and got into taxi with the son of a Yemeni billionaire. So her name's Martin Vic Magnuson and his name's Farouk Abdulhak.

She was found two days later, in the basement of this, of his apartment block, by which time he had got on a to Cairo and then to Yemen in his father's private jet. The Met decided there wasn't enough to charge. Basically, I've been trying to get him to Britain ever since he confessed to the BB, C that he said it was a sex game gone wrong, which is a defense that's often used in situations like this.

But there are emails from the billionaire father to Jeffrey Epstein about a meeting that he had with Ken McDonald, which says, Ken McDonald was paid 20,000 pounds for, consultancy about how they might possibly facilitate the return of this kid to Britain and make this case. It was just a sex game gone wrong. Can I I check this meeting proposed was after McDonald's time director of public prosecutions. Yeah, yeah.

He's working for matrix chambers at this point, so you can find it if you search for matrix chambers in the files, but it was arranged, essentially, he said, as a lawyer, you end up meeting lots of people with, with checkered cvs. But nonetheless, I found this, there's a reference to the fact that, Ken McDonald was helpful advising him because he'd be dealing with the D-P-P-I-E. They'd be, he'd be brokering the terms under which this kid would come back to Britain and and face the music.

And just the thing that got to me about all of this really horrible story about a poor dead woman. who, you, know whatever happened, she's not, she's never coming back. There's a whole life that would've been lived there. And at the end of one the emails about this back and forth between the Yemeni Billionaire and Epstein, it ends after this discussion of what, what's gonna happen with how was the Caribbean?

And it's like they're having this chit chat about how, like, how's life on your yacht in between the discussion about the death of this young woman. And that to me just really, I think a lot about that line that f Scott Fitzgerald line at the End of Great Gatsby back, they were careless people. They broke people and things and retreated back into their vast carelessness. And that to me is an of it. You're discussing somebody, your, son killed, whether he did that culpably or as an accident.

And you are also just catching up with, how's the holiday going on? Was the weather nice? Did you get any good snorkeling in it? Just, it seemed unbelievably callous to me. and as I say, Ken, McDonald's made a statement about it, but, I just, I don't think that reflects very well on them, frankly. And this is just one of things that you've noticed. The amount of stories in the files that are buried underneath it.

cause we just doing the politics and who's up and who's down at the moment, it is incredible, how much there probably is yet to go in these millions of files. The thing that's interesting about these files, whether or not you're looking at criminal wrongdoing in all these cases, and obviously you're not in all of them, you are looking the, he is a really grim insight into the way that this bit of the world works, essentially.

Yes. it's a claim that was made a lot by the MAGA movement was that society was being run by elite pedophiles. It now look quite so absurd, unfortunately. they thought it was happening from a pizza parlor in Washington. That's where they went wrong. but apart from that, they were on the money. Yeah. can also say you just find things that would've been really helpful. To know a long time ago.

in a exchange of emails, we find out that Ghislaine Maxwell, derived her enormous wealth This from some secret trust funds left to her by her father. Oh, good. So the public in Britain, given because he'd stolen all the money from the pensioners, our money given to bail them out, could easily have been paid by Zla Maxwell outta these secret funds that weren't secret to her friends in New York. and, everybody is the poorer.

It was it was a hundred million, I checked a hundred million in compensation, was paid by the government for the 32,000 former mirror staff who had pensions stolen by her dad. Whilst obviously he was stashing this money away. Her, her total net worth in 2013 apparently estimated by JP Morgan. It's them again. They're always in, the one of the first, 10 million. Yeah. So the idea was, I think up until now, that the. that, that that was the attraction of Epstein for her, wasn't it?

That he was funding her all the way. But turns out yes, And it was this poor, sad family, the two brothers whom obviously took me to court for contempt of court during the process. And I have no, beef about that. But it, for younger listeners to the podcast, Maxwell did Sue privat eye. Robert Maxwell sued us on the ground that said he stealing from his own pension fund. and then he died, but not before he'd stashed enough away for her not to have to live the world's most famous Peter file.

it, it is completely, yes. Just as a for Peter Ton, if you listening, that's how you declare interest. Yeah, That's you say what you, there is an online phrase that, punish the villains is actually quite a good electoral mantra. You it's quite a powerful saying. Let's just, should we punish the villains? It's a good idea. it doesn't seem be, Dominic Cummings's mantra was fund the NHS hang Pedos. Which also actually probably in this case would, be go extremely popular with people.

one of the things that's interesting about the opposition parties though, is I think they're quite keen to have the focus day on Mandelson, because then it's just pure, purely a Labour scandal. And I'm not sure it is purely a Labour scandal. So there's a, an appearance by the Reform Treasurer and Nick Kante if they're not in the files. Yes, there is. again, of these casual references that, turned up in the files. And, Nick Kante says that he and his brother bought this building.

oh, not was a, any building, we should say. No, this is one. Hyde Park. This is indeed one Hyde Park. But that was the subject of a, an appearance in court by Nick Kante, in which he said he didn't buy it with his brother. His, brother. bought it. and was wrong to say he'd bought it ' cause he just provided various services, which is a bit, of all court. he was the interior wasn't he? Yeah. it he Was that was that and that, that had implications for the tax that they paid or didn't pay. It did.

And And who's know is, this email in the Epstein files right? Or is what he said in court under oath? don't at me. I have no eye for these things. I do think there's a bit of a principle in political life that when Nigel Farage is slightly quiet for half an hour, you should look extremely carefully at what he's being quiet because he has been a, he has made a fair few points about this, but he has kept a little bit quiet because his chief money man is now involved in too.

Yeah. Yeah. very relatively tangentially. But I think the other thing for his point of view is that Donald Trump doesn't like a lot of focus on this, and he's very keen to preserve that relationship too. Why, would that be? be? Who could say the author of the quote in New York magazine? Jeffrey likes a lot of women and he likes them on the side. Another person who simply didn't know what was, didn't on. no idea. absolutely no idea. no idea. at all.

I feel than a lot of the correspondence who into the letters page of the eye this week saying that cover made me feel sick my stomach. You redacted the wrong bit when you when you covered up Ty's face. Yes. No. And a of people said it put me off my Some our, less, um. Busy said it put me off by lunch. But, I, think we may be near an apology for that camera Under, So the of underpants, general, that's the only people to pay consequences, is gonna be you and Starber isn't.

funny old world, isn't it? it? so those are some of the side cases that received maybe the attention that they deserve. Maybe we should now come back to the, I'm afraid you said, it's all about who's up, who's down. But does have big political Effects Yeah. Effects story. there's a huge hunt on it. The moment for anyone who thought appointing mandelson was a good idea. ' 'cause they mysteriously. They've all remembered that actually they thought this was a terrible idea all along.

it's the least of which I thought was David Lamie, who some David Lamie was always against this say he sauce close to David Lammie the weekend. bit. That sources close to David Lammie. Got that out there. Yeah. Took the time. but if this does, and again, we are recording this before I probably 24 hours of quite on news before you hear it. But if does lead to the sense that kt, his position is untenable, then there are all sorts of people wondering who might be next.

But there seem to be all sorts of problems with everyone as well. The problem is, so Angela Rainer, bastion of the soft left now in the been on the back benches, which has given her a lot of time to network, has still got the tax investigation. her second home, declaration, hanging over her. So, she, that's, that, that might put a pause on some people.

Some people want Ed Milliam back and that's because they were apparently asleep during the period 2010, to The vote loser is what we Now He wa I will say he was right on Mandelson when he was asked about in 2010. He said, I think it's important to preserve the of dignity in And I think that was okay. That was a banger, of the few sensible things that has been, said about, I was hoping he said Dig in retirement, but no. that been an extreme.

No, I ed Milliman has had a Renaissance and Ed Renaissance, if you will, in, in that climate change brief. But I, don't think there were that many people who remember his time as leader of the Labour with fond affection. I don't think he does. I don't think he, does. I don't think he worked. no, he hated it. Yeah, he said everyone was just kept going on about how he'd stabbed his brother in the back. And the problem with that was he stabbed his brother.

in back and it was entirely fair to go on about it. And then, we streeting who's seen as the kind of great hope of the Labour, Whatever you might call it Um, is friends, Has long time. Been friends Peter's friends, much, much more with Peter Mandelson than Stanmore was ever personally, didn't they? Yeah. His partner, Joe Dcy, worked for Mandelson at one point. There was a suggestion in the times that they were on Mandelson Stag do, which is a concept I would like to investigate.

more At greater length because I wonder what that involved now. Sort of heady mixture of strippers and leaking for briefings just in a limo on the bright and front, stripped him Ms. trousers, him on the on the cover of private Heart. It can Happen to anyone. So there is, that's the kind of the holding pattern really is that it's not perfect timing for any of the people to move. Andy Burnham obviously denied his ability to run in the Gorton by election.

So has at the moment no route to be becoming Labour leader unless he could get kiss down to very quickly Eni noble him and it from the Lords. But that's probably not gonna happen. there will be a seat going will there. That's true. There's a red an, there's Aman free. free. uh, after long, But the the end of the vetting will now take much, much longer. 'cause they'll have to take that much more seriously. might be difficult to turn around in time.

Can come back to my point with we street, which I keep banging back 'cause everyone else to figure, forget he's got a majority of 528 in Elford. I there's a really, strong that at the next general election he will be out. What happens if you are the leader and then the prime minister and then you lose your seat? I know never happens. you can't be be minister. the last person that got close to happening was, Joe Sw. anyone her lib de leader in the 2017 was this.

Yeah. she went out in one then back in again in the another. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So she was out as leader, you you know of that morning. if your party has got the majority, would be quite at the for Labour but, um, and, and, your leader their seat, then you've got a of a problem I know I'm a record on this, but I dunno, there really are that many safe seats anymore. If you look at Joe Sw in being a very example, that SMP post Indie referendum, 2015 tidal wave of yellow was extraordinary.

Ti used to be the safest seat, Goran old seat, safest seat. Gordon Brown Old's seat safe seat. And that went to SMP. just these, the swings were vast and I think that same thing happen at the next election here. I don't know anyone whose seat looks, nailed on. said Farage. I the thing is it would be trending in his direction, right? That's the thing.

Any, maybe I should modify that and say any Labour MP with majority under 20,000 should be thinking should put a bit of a shift in at the constituency surgery. Yeah. no holding candidate? What there's in the sort of like the kind of, when they have a Pope and they pick a really old one and then they just go, give us another six months. We'll have a think about this.

You can tell that things are because there was a very brief moment of excitement where someone seems to have briefed a lot of lobby reporters. Maybe it'll be Al Carnes. Now, And I know the first question on your lips, Which who? is Al Kanes? I I think of him very much as Labour's, Mel Stride. Brilliant. He's not Labour's male. Stride. And who's Mel Stride? Shell Chancellor. Cute, Of course.

But, he's Spice Yeah. I fear that Al Kas might have had a similar, had one drink with a journalist in which he went, if the ball came looser in the back of the scrum. And this has become a very brief, Kanes mania. But we'll see. Maybe by the time we finish recording this podcast, he'll be our prime minister. The joke will be on me. the thing I think will happen is that the party will snap back like very much like Lord Mandelson's nickel to its, its default state, which is soft left.

So that's where the, that's the, it is in comfort zone stuff. Yeah. But that's where the, that's where the gravity of the is. So Shaban Mahmud has put through immigration reforms that are probably broadly popular with the country at large. Very unpopular with the mps, very unpopular with the membership. The composition of the membership has changed since 2020. 'cause quite a lot of them have left to join the Greens for a. start, But it's still in where you'd to be socially liberal, pro-European.

So with Street, for example, has been talking up his pro-European credentials because he knows, in other respects on sort of cultural issues He's more in the Blair, the hated Blairite Zone. Mm. Mm-hmm. whereas Angela Rainer is, for example, has extremely strong links with trade unions, which are traditionally a very good thing when one is standing for the, Labour leadership.

But there's, there's sort of something for all of those involved, this is not the ideal time for them to move, essentially. And yeah, think that even as late as last week, the suspicion had been that something would happen after the May local elections. and that's why Anna swa. has put that distance, because he's facing the SNP, uh, in what is to be a pretty brutal battle up in Scotland.

And he wants to put a bit of distance from himself in the way that Douglas Ross distance himself from the unpopular Boris Johnson in England. that's always been. Ever since the Ros actually, to go back to the Miller Band era about whether or not the, mp, the Scottish Labour leader the kind of leader of a branch office or a fully fledged leader in their own right. It has been a a really difficult when the party in power, like the center, the Westminster leader of Labour is unpopular.

What do you do as the regional leaders? And the Welsh Labour will be having exactly that discussion too, because again, they're expecting to lose their majority in the Senate for the first time. ev they won't be the biggest party in in Wales since, for the first time since the evolution. So there's a big incentives for people in the regions and Nations to kind in the same way that there is for Andy Burnham to say, actually, I'm I'm getting off this ship.

And I guess there's big incentives as well for people nationally who are possible contenders for the Prime ministership to not want to take on when that's gonna be your immediate thing is a very difficult election up in Manchester and then those local results, it's kinda yeah, no care. have those and then that's a much better point at which to come a in a very cynical way, Yeah. And also the one thing that has plagued the star administration is the perceived and indeed actual lack of a plan.

the very panicky winter fuel allowance. Oh no, we're not pit reform. Oh no, we're not, no, we're not gonna raise taxes. Okay. We'll get through these sneaky ones instead. That actually, which of the other candidates has got a kind of, have they already in place a fully formed, do, what do they think the problems are with Britain and how would they solve them and how would they get the rest of the parliamentary Labour party to vote for solutions? That's, Luke Trill does a lot from more in common.

He does a lot of focus group polling. and He said the emotion he sees now is not apathy, but nihilism. People just think everything is screwed and they doning, think anyone can fix it. And I think that is also a bit of a, an inhibition on some of the candidates too. And that's your initial point is. why this scandal may have bigger than it should have is 'cause people feel so badly about politicians and plays the narrative. look at that. It couldn't get worse than that, could it?

What we all believed, is true. None of them are good. Yeah. What does Britain's future look like? I'm off to California week and say what you like about It's good. permanent. Yeah, but Which no, you're it too. It's not always bloody raining. And actually people are excited about the future. there's a sense that things are actually changing and the world is improving and there's a, yes, they're all mad peptides and, worrying about the antichrist, but the least like that's a, that's.

Quite a classy problem to have the antichrist. Our problem is like chronic low productivity and a, welfare dependency ratio. That's, that's really troublesome. So I think that's, I just think there a, that pervasive sense of doom. we've reached, I refuse to share, we've reached our traditional cheerful point to end on. so I think we should wrap it up there. Yeah, sorry. it's all right for me. I'll be in California. that's it for this episode of 94. Thank you so much for listening.

We'll be back again a fortnight with another one. in the meantime. private eye is available on newsstands, but if don't want people to see carrying around a picture of Peter Mandelson in his fronts, you can get a subscription which is delivered to you. I know, 'cause I've got one in a plain envelope. Hide your shame for very reasonable prices. Five nine Co uk. all there until then, thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. And as always, to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.

Bye for now.