Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast
Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast in the absence of Andrew Hunter Murray, this week, he's off with another different podcast that we don't mention here, touring Australia and New Zealand. I dunno when our tour's coming up. But anyway, I'm here in the Private Eye office. I'm Adam MacQueen, and I'm joined by Helen Lewis and Ian Hislop.
Later we're gonna be talking to Francis Ween about the child abuse scandal that led to the resignation of the Archbishop Canterbury, Justin Welby. But first, let's talk about something else pretty big that happened since the last edition of the magazine, Donald Trump won an emphatic victory in the US election. Is that fair?
Oh yeah. I think that's fair enough. I think people have been overdoing the idea that it was a surprise victory. Actually, all of the polling suggested it was 50 50 and within, a normal polling era, either way to be a landslide in each direction. But, definitely he won the popular vote, which he's so far never managed to do. And actually Republicans have really struggled to do since the nineties.
So the popular vote. turns out to be a statistic that is, is quite familiar to British. listeners, can you tell us?
I think Kamala Harris will end up with 48% and Donald Trump may nudge over 51, not quite
52.
Not quite the cursed ratio, but it bre confused by this, but it is a Brexit. Come on, admit it.
They don't add up, do they? There's a sort of almost 2% of people missing at the moment. Who are they voting for?
they, just take a really long time to count votes, so it's mostly Republican state legislatures have done stuff where you can't start counting mail-in ballots until election day. which was done with some idea about, oh, this would be great, we'll make it really hard to work out what the results are so that Donald Trump can claim victory. And as it turned out, they didn't need any of that. He's just, he just flat out won. It was fine. I was
slightly amazed because amongst the many, predictions I was reading, a lot of them were saying, oh, it'll won't be over. The countings gonna go on for ages, and then the court cases are gonna go on for ages. After that, it's gonna be like 2000 with Al Gore and George W. Bush. And I woke up at sort of seven o'clock in the morning, had a look at my phone and went, oh God. Yeah, done. They decided, already went back to sleep at that point.
Arizona didn't declare until the weekend. It's just by that point he'd already won Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, every and all. The other thing that's crazy is that, the Trump swing is absolutely everywhere. he won Beverly Hills, he did really well in New York, you know much better than you think. It's not just that the red states got redder, it's that.
Everywhere. Basically, apart from the Mormons, basically the Utah was the only one that didn't really follow that pattern, but pretty much everywhere else swung to Trump.
Now I had to do, have to pull you up. We're talking about predictions. Yeah. And I know some listeners are gonna be saying, what did Helen say last time? And you were, very clever. You didn't, as, I think it's now known in the podcasting trade, do a Rory.
you did, you
refused to give us an emphatic prediction of who would or wouldn't win. But you did say you found yourself optimistic about Kamala Harris', chances two weeks ago.
I did.
you pointed out she was sneaky ahead in the polling. that did seem to be what was going on at that point. And the early voting returns were looking good. And you suspect there was gonna be a big turnout by women who were driven by the decision to overturn constitutional right to abortion. middle-aged women, you said are quite reliable on turning out to vote. They are, were they, they were just, they turned out to vote for Trump, right?
They were, because they're very reliable all along, very cleverly phrased, yes,
no, what, I got wrong. So I was confused by the fact, I went to these rallies and there was genuine enthusiasm for Harris. And that's true, right? Actually, in terms of raw votes, she did not do all that badly. It's just that Donald Trump turned out a load of people, including a load of really low engagement voters across swing states. I think primarily motivated by the economy. So the thing is, I thought lots of angry women were gonna turn up to vote against him, and they didn't.
That's the bit that I, got wrong. and one of the reasons for that might be, if you look at it, people not only, there's quite a lot of really interesting split ticket stuff where they, people have voted for down ballot Democrats, but also Trump at the top. But actually quite a lot. I think two thirds of the abortion measures, which were all aimed at liberalizing, the regime in various states, all passed. Florida's one got to, in the mid fifties, but it needs to get 60% to clear.
So what clearly happened in a lot of those cases is that people who were motivated by Dobbs, that judgment turned out to vote to liberalize abortion in their state.... then tick the Donald Trump box, even though he was the guy who appointed the three Supreme Court justices, that it all rested on.
That is extraordinary, isn't it?
Voters make no sense. I think this is one of the things that you have to come out of it in this election. So we're
blaming the voters. Are we?
I'm not blaming them. I'm just saying that people have some wild opinions about politics that are, very funny. there are people... Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who's a very socialist kind of, somebody's very much on the left. Like economically within the Democrats. She did it like, a thing where she asked people on Instagram, why did you vote for me and Donald Trump? Because there were plenty of those people. And the answers are really interesting.
Often people would say, you are both kind of anti-establishment candidates, right? You're both outsiders, you're both real people. Bernie Sanders underperformed. It looks like the democratic ticket, even though in other places you'd say that economic populism has done quite well for the Democrats in Arizona, the Democratic Senate candidate, Ruben Gallego won and he won by being extremely tough on the border.
His, all his ads were him with a sheriff driving on the border going, I'm gonna close it. I'm very, I'm, so there's all kinds of cross currents that, that went on, but we don't see from here. We just don't see. So every, everybody said you think it's red or blue? Yeah, everybody said all the Arab voters in, Michigan have moved towards Trump. That may be true in a community level, but the Senate candidate that they've returned is a. pro-Israeli person who used to work as a C in the CIA.
So they're not necessarily like super against American foreign policy in that sense.
I noticed in the, Trump, grand victory speech, he thanked a specific list Americans, including Arab Americans and Muslim Americans. He didn't mention Jewish Americans. Does that mean anything? Or was he just having a brain fade?
no. it, I, think it was more that those were just un unexpected. There was a great thing of him, the picture of him hugging an imm because he absolutely loves that kind of sense of, people call me racist, people call me sexist, but actually women love me, black men love me. So I think he, he really runs against that idea that people consider him untouchable. So I think he really liked it.
The other thing he did in that speech was he called up Dana White, who was the head of the, ultimate Fighting Championship, and he then Dana White, then shouted out all the influencers, Logan Paul and, Joe Rogan and people like that. So there really is a sense that, those people are on the march. This is the new kind of MAGA monarchy, and there was a great photo from election night of Mar A Largo in Florida, which was a Trump family photo, except Melania had been replaced with Elon Musk.
Yes. She wasn't in it. He's there
holding one of his kids. Yeah. The one with the weird sort of mathematical formula name. Yeah. Yeah.
His eldest kid who, he basically, actually, he did a podcast with Tucker Carlson, in which he brought the kid on and he started saying, mini me, you complete me. So that kid is either gonna end up very weird or extremely normal. I can't see which one yet as a reaction. exactly. Just the most normal person you've ever seen. Straight called rebellion. Just like an actuary or something.
My really depressing thought last week when I saw that photo was, oh God, he's next, isn't he? You know it's not gonna be Eric or Don Jr. , That inherits the mantle from Donald. Do you think Elon's gonna run for president next time around? You are depressing. He can't. I really are. look, we don't get nice things anymore. I said all the way through. This was the result we were gonna get.
He can't. He was born in South Africa. Ah,
same
thing that kept out Arnold Schwarzenegger. 'cause he is born in Austria. Keep her, I'd like to
see that birth certificate because I, I believe he's an American
if they were gonna appeal anything. I think it's amendment that stops you running for more than two terms. People have already been hoping that you'll get the 2028 election will be, after that's repealed and then it'll be Donald Trump versus Barack Obama, which is like the final boss match of America. Wow.
That would be amazing. and then Donald just stays there and keeps the seat warm for Barron when he eventually gets to the age and height, which will be about 27 stories high by that point because he just seems to keep on growing.
He's huge. Six eight. Yeah.
So is there any evidence that old fashioned things like Taylor Swift or having celebrities endorse you makes any difference? Or is it the type of celebrities you now need? Wrestlers and golfers?
I think the trouble with their celebrities is they. They didn't create the kind of re self-reinforcing, don't wanna say echo chamber, but that sounds pejorative because the thing about all of those podcasts is, they were just avowed partisans who just hammered away at the same things in the campaign messages. Like the thing about the conservatives in the US is there's a bigger tent, right? And that they will just have anybody in and actually they're just much more loyal.
So you end up this weird situation where the liberal media and progressive groups constantly criticize the Democrats and the Republicans, but what's the counterpoint to that on the right? There's not really so much of an independent right wing media anymore. I think some of the celebrities may even have backfired, or I think gloriously people might have gone thanks, Beyonce for your opinions, to stick to the singing.
But they didn't. Do that on the other side. They don't say stick to the wrestling or stick to the looking wide-eyed on podcasts and believing stuff about aliens. they don't do that on the right, do they?
No. I've been trying to work out 'cause there's been a big discourse about, should there be a liberal Joe Rogan and I, and then everybody's been chatting about it and I suddenly thought, I don't think you can make the argument that culture in the, in America hasn't got a lot of left leading people in it. Hollywood is, it was mostly filled with people who care about making a lot of money, but that if you, insofar as it has cultural values over the last 10 years, they are softly liberal.
But Joe Rogan in 2016 was backing Bernie Sanders, wasn't he? And Elon Musk as well has switched stars. He was very anti-Trump and, has come around, fully on board, utterly on board. Now is the lesson from this that people just like outsiders and people who don't fit the political mold and that, the sort of Hollywood stars endorsing the Democrats does very much fit into that?
I think it's hard to tell the story of either Elon Musk or Joe Rogan without talking about the huge misfire that kind of left wing cancellation has been in both cases. because the trouble with, Rogan, initially he spoke out about trans women and competing in mixed martial arts fighting. He also had some pretty wacky theories during covid. But there was a kind of let's keep her in a distance. Let's cordon him off. And a, real attempt to make Democrats not go on that show.
So yeah, he had Bernie on, he had John Fetterman on the Senator from Pennsylvania just before the election, who's this, also barren Trump's size. Just giant ogre of a man who only wears sweatpants. but he just likes kind of outsider people, I think. And Bernie Sanders was that, some of Rogan's opinions are very like anti big pharma, really worried about money and politics, that kind of stuff. And the, Democrats have just ended up being painted as the. Establishment and all the media
suspicious of big pharma in America after the opioid scandal. Not a bad position because they didn't behave very well.
No, it is one of only two countries in the world along with New Zealand where you're allowed to advertise medicines on tv. a lot of the, a lot of the American medical habits, do you remember the stuff, the cake stuff from, brass eye? Oh, yeah. That all of the side effects, there will just be a list of horrific side effects for this heart medicine that you, have to get that you and all rattled
off incredibly fast. 'cause they got to do the end of it. Yeah.
There was a whole one that just went on for ages. It was a heart medicine about this terrible, potentially fatal infection of the perineum that it often caused. And I just thought, I'm eating. I don't
need this. But it is literally every advert in every ad break as well, isn't it? that's, almost what fills everything And then if you go to Walgreens, because every third shop in certain parts of America seems to be a Walgreens and just the, medicines you can buy not even over the counter, just off the shelf, things. You would need a long consultation with your GP to go over here.
b and a, you're not gonna get long consultation with your gp. That's true. And b, that's the way. It's heading. If you don't have a functioning NHS
So. Robert f Kennedy Jr. Was part of the kind of extended MAGA universe he's called of Maha, which is Make America healthy again. Whether or not he gets a formal position in the administration, his views are very influential.
Now, in that, all the, we talked a bit before about the kind of anti woke vitamins that get advertised to you, but there is a difficulty because, as you say, Ian, lots of people in America rightly find pharma very suspicious and think it's trying to sell you stuff for problems that it's created. Or in the case of the opioid scandal, rapaciously just leads you down a pathway to addiction. so he gets people with that stuff and then he leads them onto ps. Also, vaccines are bad.
and trying to defend one and not the other is a bit that I think people find quite hard.
When do all of the appointments have to be taken? When, do we find out what job RFK might get and what job E online get?
So they've got the transition team working at the moment. They've already, it's, they've, it's, they've appointed a fairly dry bureaucrat to oversee it along with some more spicier people. One of the early warning signs is that Trump has said basically he wants the leadership in the, in Congress to be okay with him just appointing acting secretaries for everything, which is a way of getting through the, avoiding the senate confirmation process.
So that does imply that he might be giving full throttle jobs to some people who wouldn't get confirmed rather than just giving them advisor jobs. 'cause everyone, he's
got both houses as well, hasn't he? they've both gone Republicans. Yeah, he
is got a pretty whopping majority. So, someone's gonna
have to be quite extreme if he can't get approval. who are we talking about here? Some of
these people are quite extreme now. I dunno if you've been keeping up with Tucker Carlson, former Fox News host, but in the closing days of the campaign, he claimed that he'd been attacked in bed in asleep by a literal demon that had clawed him. And that's definitely not disqualifying And Trump's gonna
give a cabinet job to the demon.
Yeah. You, have to remember with Tucker Carlson that, Rupert Murdoch was about to marry this woman, and then didn't because she thought Tucker Carlson was literally the messiah. and that, yeah, it was stated at the time that she was too right wing for Rupert Murdoch, how we checked. So he's pretty right wing.
Yeah. How have we checked where Rupert Murdoch was on the night in question? Because I can imagine him turning up in your bedroom c clause out could be quite terrifying.
There were so many potential other explanations not leads to the fact that Tucker Carl, it turns out, sleeps with his four dogs, which may provide an alternate explanation of why he woke up with claw marks slightly more
likely. Can
I ask you, Adam, I want, I dunno why I'm making you do this, but can you guess what Donald Trump's favorite film is?
I think I know this. Go on. Isn't it Sunset Boulevard? It is
Sunset Boulevard, yeah. It's magnificent. He used to make people come to Camp David and watch it Camp
David. The clue is there. It's YMCA is Sunset Boulevard.
it's really astonishing. Like I just think, I can't imagine him watching it going yes, it's the politics that got small.
He honestly go to YouTube and look up some old Liberace performances and all of the nuances. He's taken half of his mannerisms from Liberace. I
know. It's, it just extraordinary. But I think it makes it really work. you were saying that calling him a fascist doesn't work and because, of the gleeful, the funny, the surrealness and the calmness. I think it really jams your brain from being able to go mass deportations would be a horrible policy of people being like dragged outta their homes at night because then it's like you can't put the two things together in your brain.
Yeah. And, people didn't.
So that's democracy taken care of. Yes.
the gloom, I have to say this 'cause I'm not terribly gloomy of the whole, is you would guess from the reaction from some of the, British media that a hundred percent of the American population had voted Trump. And had also said. It's not extreme enough. Can he invade Britain? that isn't what actually happened,
rather than this being a not unprecedented election result and stuff we've done before, I'm, because you remember quite how hysterical everyone was about George W. Bush back in the day and he now looks like quite a sort of, no,
I saw a verge of him talking Spanish fluently to someone. I was like, I feel bad about all the things we said about how incredibly stupid he was. Yeah.
can you imagine how I feel about Reagan
that now that Reagan Mondale, now that's a landslide Mondale ended up with what, 13 electoral college votes out of over 500. But yeah, you are, right. And I think you say it's a resounding Trump win, but also point out that he did lose in 2020 when people directly remembered what it was like to be governed by him. he's a, giant figure in politics and a very improbable success story, other people really struggle. other maga people really struggle to capitalize and do what he's done.
I think he's a real one-off in that sense. I don't think JD Vance, much smarter than him, but I just has not got the kind of camp exuberance. And I think people really, that's the bit that people really like.
They like the showmanship. Yeah. they like, I mean it was interest thing this when Ken Livingston ran for mayor in, in 2000 and would just appeared to be different to other politicians. And it's the same appeal as Nigel Farage had. And as, Boris Johnson had, I think to people of just someone who feels like they're giving a sort of bloody nose to the establishment, even though a lot of them could not be more establishment figures, they're just slightly eccentric and very good at playing up to it.
I'm just, yeah. I've
got in my head of an image of, a new statue of Liberace with his hand held out in a rather come play big
Floy cup. That'd be lovely. we should petition for that to happen.
Okay. So we've taken care of democracy. We're gonna go back to the alternative now, the pre 1776 system and have a chat about the royal family who we haven't covered on the podcast for a while. whole batch of Royals, out over the weekend, at the various Remembrance Day commemorations, King Charles and, Princess Kate, both making return after their, cancer treatment.
but specifically there have also been a lot of stories, in the last couple of weeks about the financing of the Royals and the various ways that is done. first of all, we had a documentary by, Channel Four Dispatches and, it was a joint investigation with The Sunday Times, which revealed all sorts of details about the Dutchy of Cornwall, which is the, Prince of Wales's private estate and the Dutchy of Lancaster, which is the Dutchy you pass on the left hand side as you go at the M six.
There is a joke that will mean something to people who watched Top of the Pops in 1980 and no one else. I believe it's indeed very well done, your Honor.
I'm I. Only dipped into this story 'cause I was in America. But tell me what, so basically the idea is that they, because they're landowners, they extract a lot of rents from people.
they are enormous, landowners. Yeah. Awful lot of property, awful lot of land. the Dutch of corn's name suggest mostly down in Cornwall, Dutchy, Lancaster, a bit more spread all over the place. It's a. It's a sort of traditional name that dates back to the 14th century or something, as all of these things tend to be. But they own all sorts of things. Very, modern things.
a lot of the scandal or so thought to be scandal in this was the rents they're charging to public bodies, for, for the use of both Dutchess, properties. So Dartmore Prison belongs to the dutchy of corn, and is charged for the Ministry of Justice for the use of that. there's an NHS Trust in London, which, has rented a warehouse where they're storing lots and lots of ambulances, from the Dutchy of Lancaster, I think that one was. But there are schools as well.
There's the MOD has an awful lot of land, which they're paying rent to, two and for the Navy. Yeah, local councils, all sorts of things all across the country. and the scandal as it is, that this is not. What we think of as the Crown estate, which is the publicly owned Royal Estates. These are specifically the private estates of, as I say, Dutch of Cornwall was, Prince of Wales. So it was Prince Charles, and then he handed it over to William, who is now his dad's landlord.
That's a nice little fact. He is the landlord of Highgrove, that's the millennial. So his dad kicks off and has too many parties or anything. He can kick him out, which would be interesting,
but don't we get that money back? How much of that money do they keep for themselves? I know there was, they keep
all of that money for themselves. Ah, so as I say, it's entirely different to the, Crown Estate, which was handed over in 1706, by George II in return four. So that was given in, given to the public purse, but return for receiving what is now called the Sovereign Grant. Which is based on a percentage of that, which is the money that actually goes towards the upkeep of the royal family and kind of their public duties.
My reaction on hearing this was not huge surprise, as this story does bubble up quite frequently, and I, ag agree, we, need to know these things and we need the transparency, but the essential fact of this is these two Duchess pass to the next holder. , so they remain, , the property not of, a series of Russian oligarchs or whoever else you would like to own this property. They remain the property of two individuals who have to continue it, in a line which means they can't sell it.
and it remains answerable. in terms Britain.
It does, Dartmore Prison would belong to someone, as would the Warehouse in the center of London. So, the
question seems to be if it's a prison, should it be paying rent? So it's the public paying rent to itself. the NHS I'm not quite sure what these ambulances are doing in a warehouse. I'd be quite happy for 'em to be out. It might be handy, but so I see that, you could, take that. But both of these estates are meant to, ease the public purse so that we don't have to pay for Prince. Charles. and, Prince William. So presumably if they're charging rent, they use that to fund their life.
and then we don't have to pay them any more money outta taxpayers per, is that not a consideration?
I think so, yeah. I don't mean, I think one of the things that slightly shock people in it is the amount of money involved. So we're talking about the, Duchy of Lancaster returns 27.4 million to the King, the Dutch of Cornwall, 23.6 million to, Prince William. And I think some of that sticks in people's calls, particularly Prince William is trying to reposition himself and Yeah. And doing an awful lot of stuff around homelessness. Yeah. not something that people approve of.
the other big story about Royal Fanta is that came up recently, was that, Prince. Charles's not so keen on sharing any of that with his brother Andrew. no, I think this is gonna be very popular.
I think the first story is probably not good
for the royal
family.
The second story seems to me a big PR win in terms of a PR move. Yes. Withdrawing funding from Prince Andrew, the disgraced Prince Andrew as we have to call him, who having had Royal funding for his very lavish lifestyle in the 30 Room Royal Lodge in Windsor, is now or has been slightly on his uppers. reports have been that the Prince, I still think of him as the Prince of Wales. He's not, he's, King Prince Charles now, isn't he? King ....has withdrawn the funding.
for Andrew's, security, in an effort to try and boot him out of Royal Lodge and persuade him to move into that cursed address, Frogmore Cottage. Which was 'cause a, not a cottage, another massive house, albeit not quite as big as Royal Lodge, but the, former residence of Harry and Meghan before they moved out. And
then Princess Beat has had, it didn't change. Yeah.
She was in there for a while. But, but the, theory is that Charles is trying to, put, Andrew in there along with Sarai Ferguson, who is his ex-wife, divorced years and years ago, but still lives in Royal Lodge with him. Yes. That's probably one need, 30 bedrooms, so they can be very, separate from each other. A wing each or something.
for those of you who are watching Wolf Hall, it is fantastic that. members of the royal family obviously cannot confront each other and never could. So they send into Metu trees to say, we're withdrawing your royal protection. So you'll have to go, he could just say, you're out. Yeah.
Move it.
Yeah, move.
that was the thing that struck me as, it's like EastEnders, isn't it? In the, people inheriting houses around Albert Square from each other and all the Fowlers are gonna move in there. And then Actually no. The bales are in number 13 now, and who's got a share of the Vic and all, but it's not like he send us, as you say, they don't have massive Barneys with each other and fight it out, do they? No. They're terribly polite on the front.
And you get these coded references to, to certain, bits of money being withdrawn and things.
Yes. They send some sort of equity with a nickname like the Wasp
something. The Wasp and the Bee, wasn't it? The Wasp and the Bee. Yeah. Yeah. a fluky, our royal insider pointed out recently that it's not quite as straightforward a story as a lot of people are presenting it as, because for one thing, Andrew has actually got a lease that runs on Royal Lodge until 2078. So the pressure on him to move is not enormous on that front.
he paid quite a lot of money when he was still on, he had public duties and still had money coming in from his mother, and he took the place on, and he's paying a peppercorn rent for it. Whereas Evie did move into Frogmore cottage. He would apparently have to pay a rent of something like, 300,000 pounds a year. And he's a lot less than that now. So you can see why he's digging his heels in a bit on that front. Could we not move the ambulances into Royal Lodge? That would be more useful.
this is the other thing that would be a bad PR move for the King, of course, because he's already got quite a lot of palaces, which are lying empty for, a great many weeks of the year. And if he moves Andrew out of Royal Lodge, that's another quite big property. Yep. Lying empty. Not great for Prince Williams, campaigning on homelessness either.
But the slightly worrying thing about this is that, Prince Andrew is now saying that he has found the funding to stay in Royal Lodge, although he is declining, to tell us who
Oh. And given
Andrew's Andrew and Fergie's previous sources of funding, which of course, this is how we got here, included, Jeffrey Epstein and that, well-known billionaire pedophile and sex trafficker. and also the, the son-in-law of the president of Kazakhstan, another handy billionaire who, bought Andrew's last house for him for 3 million over the Aing price, which was terrible. The cha Wasn, wasn't it? No, there's the chalet as well. The woman, the Swiss lady who sold them.
The chalet is very cross about it. 'cause she said, she was kept waiting to be paid for years and suddenly he's magic this money up out of somewhere. But that is a kind of question on this, is if we don't want to pay for Prince Andrew, that's fine. That's, very, justifiable. But. Who is then gonna pay for Prince Andrew? 'cause he's got some quite dodgy people around him. I
admit to you that we could pay for Prince Andrew to live as I live in a two bed semi in zone three.
Yeah. I'll tell you what, he could stay in Dartmore prison.
That would be handy. as it turns out, Dartmore Prison is largely lying empty and not even being used by the Minister of Justice at the moment. So can have as many wings as you want. Fergie can have a whole block to herself. If he goes there, hell
block f
Do you know what? We've solved this already. I know. If only they'd
asked us earlier,
Helen has now left us, but for the final part of, this fortnight's podcast, we are joined by journalist Emeritus of Private Eye, Francis Ween, who since 2017 has been following the story of John smi. Now, finally in the last week, an independent review ordered by the judge of England into this case has come out, Smythe viciously abused generations of boys at evangelical summer camps. He ran in England in the seventies and 1980s.
and as if that wasn't horrifying enough, Justin Welby, , has admitted knowing about SMS behavior, which he should have done given he was, involved in those summer camps back in the day. Francis. Thanks for joining us.
Hello.
take us back to the beginnings of this and tell us about John Smythe.
the beginnings of the eye coverage were in 2017, as you say, after Channel four. News broke the story, but the, story was first. Emerging in 1982 when, a chap called the Reverend Mark Rustin was asked by the UN Trust, which ran these evangelical summer camps, to, look into the activities of John S. Smith, who had been chairman of the trustees of this trust from 1974 to 82, who was a barrister. He was Mary Whitehouse's favorite barrister.
Among other things, whenever she took someone to court for obscenity, he was usually the chief involved, high moral tone. He took. he was a, muscular evangelist. So muscular. He beat young men and boys violently in the shed at the bottom of his garden in Minster. And he recruited them and groomed them at these Yu Un Summer cramps of the trust he was chairman of.
And it was largely run by Church of England p to recruit the next generation of evangelical muscular Christian Cler, including, the man who is now arch for Canterbury, just in Wellbe. and in fact in 1982, the year of this Rustin report, I think 22 of the attendees at this youth summer camp were themselves, church of England, vicars. They was acting as supervisors and of the boys and young men who went to the camp that summer, 29 went on to become clergymen.
So it was pretty good feeder camp for the CV,
And the scale of it was extraordinary, wasn't it? it was something like 130 victims identified, but the actual beatings, we're not just talking about sort of six strokes of the cane. It was hundreds if not thousands of of, of lashings.
It was, it went, ran into thousands. they could hardly stand. They bled so much that they had to wear adult nappies for days after the beatings and, had the scars for months afterwards. Some of them still had the scars. one of the victims I know who, tried to kill himself, in fact, he was some. He'd been beaten so many thousands of times, and John SMI then said to him, it's your birthday coming up. I'm gonna give you a special birthday present. I'll give you, the beating of your life.
An extra hard beating, all justified in the name of Christianity. It was all to do with, this is to atone for your sins. So if you've masturbated, you need a hundred lashes. It was all dished out on a scale of punishments, this poor chap who I know, tried to kill himself, and that was when the story broke, except it was immediately suppressed because he wrote a suicide note, sent it to a man called Reverend David Fletcher, who succeeded smi, the chairman of the trustees of the UN Trust.
And Fletcher thought, oh God. He says, yeah, I think he might have sent a copy to somebody else. This is all gonna come out. We better look responsible. Have an inquiry into it. And so they did. They commissioned this chap, the Reverend Mark Rustin, who was, as you said, former housemate and close friend of Justin Welby, the young Justin Welby
And this is in 1982, is that right?
is 19 early 82. And so he did this report and he found, I think I spoke to about 22 victims of SMS who have been beaten within an inch of their life. And there was clearly a sexual element to it. There was a lot of fondling and stroking that went on and, and it took place naked., He'd built a little shed at the bottom of his garden to carry out these beatings in, so the, it wouldn't be audible by his wife. I think she must have guessed at some point. But anyway,
I think she gave tea afterwards, didn't she? in the kitchen,
She was very solicitous. Yes, they used to sit on the sofa, barely able to sit, frankly, even in their adult lefties.
so this was in 1982. We're talking about 42 years ago, aren't we? How come it took so long for it to come out after that? What happened then?
wrote about it in the eye in 2017, if anyone has a strong stomach, I strongly recommend a book called Bleeding for Jesus,
Bleeding for Jesus. It's quite graphic, isn't it
Andrew Graceton the way he describes it and goes into enormous detail about the scale of the brutality of these beatings that this man John S. Smith was carrying out and how he groomed them and how the cult atmosphere, the sort of evangelical cult-like atmosphere encouraged these boys not to blab to anyone else and made the, led them to, to think that if they refuse these beatings, they were committing a sin against Jesus and this was what God wanted.
, the report was produced and it was circulated to a number of clergymen who were involved in the UN Trust. So it was. Became known within certain COE circles that this report existed and several Vicars had actually read it, but all they did by way of taking action instead of say going to the police. 'cause the report says this is clearly criminal activity. No argue in fact that's what the data two report said.
Instead of thinking, oh, criminal activity, that's where you go to the police, isn't this? They said, I know, let's all club together 'cause we are quite well off. Let's raise funds to GoFundMe. Thing, so he can carry on beating somewhere else away from our jurisdiction. And so they packed him off to Zimbabwe where he set up a similar thing called the Zambezi Ministries, which had summer camps and where he carried on beating boys. And indeed, one boy died at one of these camps.
He was so badly beaten. He was called Guy, I think his name ought to be named. there was an attempt to bring a prosecution for colorful homicide against my over the death of Hur. But, smiles barrister successfully persuaded the Zimbabwean court that there was a conflict of interest in the case and that, it just couldn't be brought because the lawyers for the prosecution were in some way complicit.
But anyway, the real point was friends in high places saved his bacon... up to, and including Robert Mugabe, just as in England. His activities were hushed up because he had, friends who were bishops and senior clergy.
what point does, Justin Wellbe, the Archbishop of Canby, admit to having some knowledge of what had been going on?
initially, when this first appeared on Channel four News in 2017, Justin Wellby gave an interview, to Kathy Newman of Channel four News and said, I had no idea. I, had no reason to think there was any problem with John Smy. I'm a shocker. And he said a number of things, which I mean, bearing in mind what the Bible says than the 10 of moments. But thou shall not bear false witness. most of the stuff he bought in the sense of gave as interviews turned out to be totally untrue.
so he said I had no contact with him. After 1978 when I moved to Paris to work in the oil industry, except that actually 'cause he admitted he had been a dormitory officer and a senior figure at these camps before then. And so had known why in the seventies. He said after 78 it had nothing to do with him but he was there at the 79 camp when Smy was still present and still grooming and beating.
And actually Welby was one of the people who contributed to, the ministries, the Zimbabwean operation set up by Smythe.
I love the idea that we export sadism and pedophilia to the colonies. That's fine.
it's extraordinary, the mistake as well, but even, the report that came out last week by Keith Macon, the Church of England, long delayed, has to be said many times, delayed review, which is damning for wellbeing.
Yes, you've, you wrote about it a number of times and said, it's 15 times this report's been delayed. The idea that they were actually in any way trying to get this report out. It's just complete nonsense, isn't
Yes, in, in his interview with Kathy Newman of Channel four News in 2017, he said, we've got to look into this now. It's been, now it's been drawn to my attention, as if he hadn't heard of it before. What he now has to admit in this report is he's admitted, he did know from 2013. He says he no idea for that. Although the report makes it fairly clear that he should have known because, in 1981 he was when, we was living in Paris, working in the oil business.
He was told by Canon Peter certainty, which was at a church. He attended a COB church in Paris, that there were concerns about smile. 'cause certainly knew that well, knew Smith who'd just passed through Paris with a gaggle of boys on their way to a ski trip. And, I think whereas it, what certainly said to him was Smy is really not a nice man. One of the boys had a chat with me and Welby says, I wasn't know that this meant he was abusing them all.
I just thought, he has warned me that he warmed me off Smy and admitted Wilby wasn't a CLER at the time. So he wasn't necessarily obliged to go to the police or ask the church to look into it. Still when he became a clergy, when it became, let alone, when he became Archbishop Canterbury, you'd think at some point that might have, crossed his mind, And the reasons he's given, he said, I lost contact with him anyway.
And I was advised that there was a police investigation going on and it would be against the correct policy to do any further things until the police investigation was, there was no police investigation going on. He said. And I did write to the South African primate, the head of the South Africa, about this. So I, you can't say I didn't warn him. 'cause while this went on in 2013, SMY was still abusing boys in South Africa.
And he Welby claimed written letter to the, primate in South Africa as he put it, except he didn't actually, as it now turns out. And as he now bits, he says, I, misremembered, I thought I'd written a letter and actually I didn't. In fact, he did absolutely nothing. And then when it was the day after the telephone news thing went out in 2017, he was on Nick Ferrari's show on OBC and Ferrari said, did you not feel as head of the Church of England?
You had some responsibilities to take urgent action about this, given that the guy was still around in his, indeed is around in 20 17, 4 And, Wellby said, he wasn't an Anglican, he had no connection with the Anglican church. the UN Trust, which ran these camps had nothing to do with the Church of England either. It was, he was not American, except that actually he was a licensed reader, lay reader in the Church of England, licensed
A and 22 boys became Anglican priests, so it suggests the link was fairly clear.
a bishop said to the I at the time, he's more of an African than I'm,
And Francis, am I right in thinking that they use that as an excuse as well, that this independent investigation hasn't covered the events in Zimbabwe? It literally is just what Smy got up to in England.
so far, yes. there are allusions to what went on in and Rhodesia, but that is still uncharted territory. Largely. there have been several inquiries while we've been waiting for the Church of England to publish. Its long delayed review. the scripture Union did an inquiry, the Winchester College, the public school. Where, a lot of these boys were recruited from because John Spike lived near Winchester.
And so he, used to hang around the public school and after Sunday services, he had a little group approved of by the headmaster. Then headmaster, John Thorne encouraged this. And then, when it all went wrong, when he discovered that these boys were being beaten and abused, thorn said, I tell you what, I, think perhaps you better stop, Why didn't you just give me a private under undertaking that your mission, your ministry will not involve this anymore and that you will leave these boys alone?
Just a private undertaking. We won't take it any further. We'll say no more about it. So Winchester College published a terrible sort of self basing report saying, oh, God was so sorry we didn't do anything and we should have done. And the Scripture Union published a report saying, oh dear. Oh dear. An awful lot of these people. Seemed to have been involved in the Scripture Union and we didn't do anything about it.
So we should have known now at long last the ces obvious this thing and Wellby is still saying, I don't think I should have done anything about it. I'm frankly sorry, but I don't see that it's anything to do with me really.
in terms of where we are now, we should just say we're recording this on Monday afternoon and the most senior figure in the Church of England so far to say that, Welby should resign over this is Helen Ann Hartley, the Bishop of Newcastle, but I suspect as you say, she will be joined by others and he should not be the only one who is resigning
Bishop Helen is a good egg.
for Wellby's part. He said that he plans to remain in office until he reaches retirement age in 2026 if people are happy.
this is the same. Justin Wellbe who thought it would be a good idea to have Paula Beals as Bishop of London. talk about complete dud. I, he's just such, such a, I'm an atheist, but I'm also a church going Church of England, atheist. I remember my church choir. Indeed, both my parents were labors in the Church of England, so I do feel quite attached to the Church of England,
do you feel, Francis, that the archbishop's confession should be accompanied by some sort of act of penance?
I think he should, just to use a biblical phrase, admit that he's now a whitey ska.
And on that note, thank you very much Francis William for joining us,
Thank you and God bless you.
God bless you. Two. That was Francis Ween speaking to us on Monday afternoon and 24 hours later there was a development in the case when Justin Welby resigned, which as you might note is the first quick thing that has actually happened in this entire case. Welby statement said there had been a conspiracy of silence to protect sm, but he himself only took responsibility for the period after 2013.
so if you'd like to stay ahead of stories like this and an awful lot more, then uh, what you need to do is not only listen to this podcast, but also to buy the magazine. Subscriptions are available from private co uk and if you take a yearly subscription, you'll be getting it at the cover price of just one pound 73 an issue. bargains don't come much more bargainy than that. , my thanks to Francis Ween, to Helen Lewis and to Ian Hislop.
and also as ever to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing this podcast. we will be back with another edition of page 94 in a fortnight.