Hey, Cesc here. And today we have the CEO and co founder of Instant Padel, Christopher Grenfeld. Did he really create the portable Padel court? I had a chance to meet with you at RacketX. You had a booth there and I found your product like super interesting. Um, but let's first talk about you, um, your background in Padel. Sure. Um, yeah. First of all, my name is Christopher and I'm based in Stockholm, Sweden. My greatest accomplishment is my four kids.
And apart from that, I've been actually been working within the tech industry for 20 years. But then in 2020, during the boom in Sweden, um, I got to meet, meet my colleague, uh, that had an idea. Uh, and he didn't really do anything about it until we start talking about it. Uh, and, uh, we went partner around it and that's where Instant Padel was born. So did you play Padel before or did you even, uh, see Padel or, um, when were you introduced to Padel? Yeah, of course.
I mean, from like 2015, 16 Padel was growing tremendously in Sweden, uh, and it got its boom, uh, during, you know, COVID as well. So I was playing a lot like a recreational player. Um, I really thought I was a really good player in the beginning. But then, uh, the more I played, the more, uh, I started to learn that. This is an easy game to start learning how to play, but it's almost impossible to master. Oh yeah, I hear that. When you first start playing, you're playing all the time.
You feel like you're playing so well in the master until you find somebody that's played so much better. And you're like, oh boy, I got a long way to go. So, did you play any other racquet sports prior? Yeah, I was, uh, you know, playing tennis. I done a lot of sports when I was a kid. Uh, I was mainly a golfer Uh could actually call me pretty good golfer back in the days. Uh, but I was playing a lot of tennis, you know Basketball and but well, I was not pro or anything.
I was just trying to hit the ball over the net So what made you uh get into this uh to this business, you know, I know your friend. Uh, Talked a little bit about it, but what made you say, Hey, look, I'm going to make a module portable or how would you call it? Like, um, non permanent courts. Yeah. So basically we're a world unique, mobile or portable or modular court.
Right. Uh, and I think me being an entrepreneur for so many years have learned sometimes that when you feel something and that you see something actually do something about And I think the greatest sort of Synergy between me and my 20 year old, 20 year old younger friend is that he, he was frustrated because during the boom in Sweden, there was so much people playing, but it was a lot of It was a lot of premium stamp to it. It was very expensive to play.
It was really hard to get a time and he's coming from a background being a soccer professional working a lot with kids and families and societies and seeing like the what what kind of impact the sport can do for the communities and he wanted to do something about it. So basically he asked a question like does it have to be so complicated. To build a traditional or to build a Padel court. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So, uh, what is this voice filling or or who is Who is this court for?
Yeah, so basically The the court is for all the recreational players that wants to have fun with the game that wants to have accessibility And just get to I mean either start just playing trying it out But also all the intermediate players just want to have a go uh, it's also of course for um You know, elite players just want to have a fun, you know, game, uh, because you can, I mean, our court is delivering, uh, the game, uh, but like, just as an example with in Spain, they started off
in, uh, playing with concrete walls. Now it's glass panels, right? Or if you look at tennis board, you have surface like it's grass or clay or hard true. So, you know, It's basically about securing that, you know, Padel is a type of game where you use the walls and when you, you know, have a different type of rule system. That, that, that is the same for our courts. But what we did is that we basically made sure to become more mobile.
Uh, the story is that a lot of traditional courts, Courts as well as traditional portable courts still needs a lot of handling a lot of heavy lifting machines and a lot of ground constructions or permits. But our solution don't need that. And that means that makes our court. Uh, perfect in some, I mean, some, in some cases and not, of course, we're not relevant for all projects out there. Okay. Christopher, uh, who is this pedal core for?
Yeah. So basically, I mean, I already told you guys about us wanting to have. Onboarding from the intermediate recreational play, but I also really want to emphasize on the fact like how, how, how should you best utilize or use this court. And a good example is for, you know, Glenn Eagles Hotel in Scotland, they were interested to bring in Padel to their members. They didn't have any permits, they didn't want to invest large amount of money because they didn't have the data right.
So what they did is that they put two instant Padel courts on their existing tennis court and during one season, they got enough data, enough interest, uh, and really great response. So now they're building a permanent, uh, Padel arena at their premises. Uh, another great example is, you know, tennis clubs are suffering today. Having Older members sometimes being very reluctant to new sports, whereas the tennis needs to be broad enough to become more racket friendly, if you know what I mean.
Um, and It's very tough sometimes, economically, for tennis clubs to invest in, you know, scrapping a tennis for Padel because they don't have the data. So, tennis clubs, for instance, they can have one or two courts up and just get the data. And in UK, we had three months, us there, at the Tour K Club in UK, and they got 60 new members. Uh, in three months, and it was totally new target groups coming into their club.
And I think that the future, no matter what, it's about being open, about trying out and giving sort of the accessibility. If it's pickle, Padel, or tennis, uh, it doesn't matter. It's about getting people the joy of socializing as many hours at a club, and then let them choose what kind of sport they want to play. Wow, that's great. Now that's clubs. What if it was just a normal person, not a club that is interested in doing something like this?
What preparations would they need before moving forward with this? Yeah. So, so that's a good question because a lot of times to look at a person that is entrepreneurial, uh, they need to basically, first of all, just be very curious about finding space. Let's say they walk back and forth to the kid's school and they see a dead area that is not used.
It's all about them, you know, being curious about how can I get this space and in what ways can I get this space, uh, for, for, for usage of panel. Uh, and I think that a lot of people walk around sometimes thinking, Oh, here, it should be great, right? But, I mean, I really know that by just doing it, trying out, calling the people that are in charge of this land, they are really happy about somebody taking charge of that. Because nobody wants dead areas.
Everybody wants dead areas to become active and social and fun. Uh, for the social impact part. So I think it's like, uh, on the general term, it's like, if you think it, find out and do it, and there's a lot of ways. Yeah. So it's more, uh, location, right? Land. That's probably the first step, correct. And the approach, the goal, the goal. Yeah. And the gold of Padel is space, space, a land.
And when you do the inventory of space, then you will know, am I going to build traditional or am I going to build with instant Padel? It's, it's pretty simple. Uh, and I will guide them if they think it's the Padel in the wrong location. I will tell them. That they are, they should do the traditional way. Wow. That's great. That's a great information for somebody interested in, in pursuing this. We get a lot of calls inquiring about, uh, creating, uh, clubs.
Um, and I found, uh, your core very interesting because I think, uh, especially in the areas that. Uh, you have to educate people what Padel is being able to put up a court very quickly, um, not go through the whole process of permits and everything. And just kind of, um, with a minimum investment, um, and educate the people in the area kind of, uh, see if you're, uh, if the people are engaging and reacting to Padel.
And then at that point, if you feel it is at that point, you can move forward to a second stage and opening up a club. So I found that very, very interesting. Have you seen people doing that? Yeah. And I think I, I want to give the listeners an idea, like what are we? Uh, because we basically. made some changes in to the material. Uh, a traditional court is often built with glass panels. Only the glass panels itself weigh around 250 kilos.
And that means that it's a lot of heavyweight construction. Whereas you also, uh, in order to like sort of bolt down the court, you need permits to do that. As soon as you bolt down the court, You need some kind of permit like let's let's talk about that. Okay. So let's talk about the court. Um, yeah, you said the glass is replaced by what material? Yeah, so basically what we tested out in the factory is Polycarbonate panels.
And it's basically like plexi, like plastic, uh, hard plastic, uh, panels. Uh, it's called polycarbonate, which are unbreakable, but also they weigh instead of the 250 kilos, they weigh around 90 kilos. Wow. Okay. That means that two people can carry this panel without having weights, heavyweight machines. How about durability and how does it react to the ball compared to class?
So basically all the recreational players, I mean, we have had hundreds of thousands of people playing us over three and a half years now, nobody's really reacting to it or noticing it or thinking about it because in the recreational type of play, like you use them and whatever, but you don't have the expectancy of the perfection. Okay. And I think that the number one thing sometimes is not always go for the perfection, but always sometimes go for the good enough in order to.
Secure what we are having today. So the average player is not going to notice anything. No, I mean, they come in and they can get the same balance when you hit a lot of shots. And when the elite players comes in, they will of course notice a bit of difference. But they can adjust very fast because they are, you know, good players. Yeah. Yeah. Just like all, all clubs have different, you know, turfs, different courts and speed and is different. And you have to adjust a little bit.
And then you come in and you play like 10 minutes and you adjust like to the floor, you adjust to the panel or the, you know, whatever, and then you have a good game. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So how about the turf? I know you have turf, uh, you know, traditionally, what do you guys use, uh, for your platform there? Yeah. So basically the, the invention we have, or the sort of uniqueness is our cage.
Uh, we can use any turf, uh, but when we come on like a parking lot, like, uh, and we're going to be there for a season, let's say. Uh, the good, the, the, the, the best turf to use if you're gonna move it around is tiles. It's like plastic tiles. Whereas we, uh, today have Versa Court, which is US based company, and they use, like, their sports court are all over the place in the us like all the three and three basketball, the tennis, uh, outdoor for the, you know, field hockey or whatever.
Um, and they have like a good grip to have, uh, you know, being innovative within the sports to secure the. The short stops and non injuries as well as you know, uh, everything and then of course the bounce And when it comes to the bounce We give a bit better of a bounce, like it's a bit faster, our court on the tiles, but, uh, the recreational players really more appreciate that because it's a bit easier. Uh, whereas the pros again, you know, they, they adjust.
Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the sub flooring because I think that's important. Um, this is made to go on top of, let's say asphalt, correct? Yeah. So basically all type of surface, which is hard from the start.
Uh, we can just build it up on there and the only thing we need to do is adjustment to make sure that it's even leveled out that that's what I was going to ask you because most, you know, asphalt, let's say, if you're going to do it at a park, if you're going to do it at a parking lot or somewhere. They're not going to be perfectly level. So how do you deal with that? You're still going to have to do some type of suffering where you're loving it off. And how do you guys do that?
Yeah, so there are, there are numbers of different ways and basically, you know, the Versacore guys that, you know, work with this every day because they always need the level, level floor and hard surface, right? Uh, but one, one way to do it on a parking lot is stone base. You have like 0. 8 gravel stone, uh, like, It could be like parking material, like, uh, and then you level it out and you water it and then you pack it, um, and you whack it, like you, you press it really hard.
So it becomes like a temporary concrete. It becomes like hard. But it's very easy to restore. So the other question is, how about weather weather wise? So when it rains, how does that affect the, the, the sub base there? Yeah. So basically, first of all, the tiles that we're using have holes within and they are. Uh, drainage by themselves, so like we don't get the puddles, but the sub bottom, it doesn't, it doesn't erode.
No, because you have, you have like a, uh, rubber mat, uh, you know, over the sort of stone base. So you cover it, right? So, uh, that is not a problem at all. Gotcha. Okay. That's smart. Right, right, right. And as long as you have a somewhat of a pitch, the water will flow one way. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. That's, that's great.
Okay. So let's talk about, um, so I just, I just want to say, well, what's interesting, I mean, we've done like 160 installs in 18 countries now, and the interesting part is that the groundwork cost for this leveling out is around five to 10, 000. Right. Which means that, you know, for many people that work with traditional solutions, pay way more. I can do that. Yeah. Yep. Yep. No, I get it.
Okay. So you're looking at five to 10 versus let's say 18 to 20 or 22, 000, you know, a traditional, I would say more, I don't know what's the price in that in Europe, but like, if you go and I'm going to install one or two courts in, uh, in the Europe, uh, you're looking at 30, 40, 50, 000. Wow. Down here, one core is going to be anywhere from 18 to maybe 25 at the most. You know, so I guess roughly the same, I guess it depends in the area that you're at here in the U. S. Yeah. Um, okay.
So that's, I mean, that's, that's pretty good. So let's talk about the, the actual core. I mean, uh, what is it made out of? Is it made of metal? Is it galvanized? Um, uh, you know, let's talk about that. Yeah. So our, our manufacturer is Pyrocore Deluxe, which is one of the world's largest manufacturers. I mean, they're sending out 3000 quarts a year. And we are using the exact same material as traditional quartz when it comes to galvanized steel and their high quality type of structure.
The only thing we have changed is the glass to polycarbonate. And then we can use different type of floorings. Gotcha. Okay. So now is this secured to the to the asphalt or to whatever you're doing or, or it's not? So when we are on the asphalt, uh, you know, we don't usually secure it or bolt it, but there are options to bolt it if, if needed.
If you're on a, uh, like location where it's, where it's, uh, you know, let's say windy or, or, or stuff like that, you can secure it and do it permanently. Okay. Okay, so let's talk about the net and poles, right? So you need a net, and then you have the poles on the side. Yeah. How are the poles secured to the, to, to the ground? Do you have to bolt those down? No. So nothing is to be bolt. So basically, uh, what we have done is that we have a structure of a t, um, which has a stable function.
It's pretty heavy. Uh, that is like on the, each corner. And then we have the net that is, uh. Tightening up, but we come up to the right level, uh, and we don't need to bolt it, but we, we do have like clambers. So like, if you look at the entrance, uh, of the Padel court, you know, we can, we can secure it in the cage itself, but we don't need to the ground. Oh, that's smart. That's smart. Gotcha. All right. I was wondering about that.
Yeah. Okay. So are these courts really, uh, they're non permanent, correct? And so this, uh, this is, um, but are they really Are they really portable? Would you say it's for how long will it take to take down and how long will it take to put up? Yeah, so what we usually say to the clients is there, they can build it up in 4 to 6 hours. Uh, the record is a UK team game for Padel that have built it up in 2 hours and 30 minutes.
So when you say four to six, is that two people, uh, three people, four people? It's four people. So you need one, you need one people with a practical brain and then you need three muscles. Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, okay. Now, do you need any type of special equipment, um, to put these up or just, you know, human power, it's basically like an IKEA version of a court, but we don't forget to send the screws, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, so it's a very, it's a clickable setup with no tools.
And basically how it works is that when you connect the two points. First panels like the corner and then you basically Connect the panel with the leg because we have legs around the court Then you have the first setup and then you just continue Panel by panel and securing it with the leg to the ground and when the leg is secured to the ground There you get the stability of the court. Gotcha. Okay. So how many courts of these you have?
Oh, well, you know Through the world how many courts you have out there? Yeah, so basically we have, uh, 160, uh, we've done 160 installations in 18 countries. And it's going to be soon 20 countries. And the fun, the fun part, I think, is that, you know, we come from Sweden. It was a crazy boom. We ended up in an overgrowth. I think that we had 4, 000 quotes over a period. I think it's down to like maybe 2, 500.
But what's very interesting from my perspective is to see the growth of Padel In, in, uh, in all of the countries outside and only in the UK, like in London area, we have 14 courts in the London area within St. Paul. Wow. Okay. So do you have any courts on here in the U S we have within three weeks, we are going to assemble our first court in New York at the West side tennis club, which is an iconic place, uh, for the tennis lovers.
Uh, hosted, I think 60 years open, uh, and some Davis cup as well. Wow. That that's amazing. I hope you get one down here in Florida. I'd love to actually see it and play on it and see how, you know, how it plays. You know, I've played battle, you know, three, four times a week. I'm dying to see how. That court place. Um, okay. So let's talk about, um, costs. Uh, how much does one of these things cost? Um, uh, how long will it take to get delivered to your location?
Um, and do you guys have a warehouse here in the US? Yeah, all good questions. Uh, the cost of a court is 41, 000. Okay. Uh, and it's basically connected to, uh, with the delivery of. Uh, I would say four weeks, depending, because, uh, the ship itself, we're shipping from Alicante in Spain.
And the journey there is only like one week, but it's all about how to get a slot, uh, in, in the container business, because the container by, you know, every week, it's different story of both costs and also timing. So when we, when we sell our courts to the States or overseas, uh, we give the right expectancy of, uh, getting the client to confirm.
But also when they are confirmed, we can find out like the delivery time, uh, over to the question of like, how are we going to build up our market in the U S? Um, that's the like billion dollar question for many, but because, um, there are very few manufacturers that wants to start heavily without having, uh, the right number, um, you know, secured. Um, and.
Therefore, it's all about building up storages, whereas our strategy is that we are, we're activating resellers and distributors in the U. S., um, basically having them to have one or three or five courts, uh, whereas we're going to have, uh, many resellers, um, that is going to be representing us, having us in their portfolio. Uh, because the main number, I mean, the number one purpose for us being there is how, how can we activate an area?
How can we, you know, be, be actually the ones that make this sport more accessible instead of waiting for permits, for finance, and, and getting the longer journey around. Well, that's a good question. Um, finance, you guys have finance for, for the, for the courts. Do you guys provide that? The finance would be leasing. Yeah. Leasing or financing about, do you guys have a third party company that does that? Yeah, we do.
But you know, due to the world economics right now, uh, it's not, uh, the perfect ideal for the customers back in the days when we started, I was, I would say 80, 90%. Of the deals were made with leasing. But right now the interest rates, uh, and also the, uh, sort of security that you need to have, uh, it's not often, uh, as applicable as it was some years ago. So what's next for instant Padel? I mean, what, what's the goal for instant Padel in the next few years?
Yeah. I mean, I, I got like, I got a baby is the Padel. Pursued an idea that I really loved because it was all about how can we, uh, make it more accessible? How can we make a social impact about broadening the sport and getting people to try sports, uh, at certain areas? How can we make the sport more central? I mean in Europe people drive like 30 minutes, right? Um during this journey, uh, my passion have grown for Uh, the activity and the activation rather than Padel only.
So we're actually launching now something called instant courts. And that is because if we did, if we just changed the flooring of our cage, we can have basketball and soccer, uh, and all of a sudden have a lot of sports being played at our cage. Right.
So my future is all about getting people, I mean, building dream team of circuits of people that are passionate about making social impact, getting, you know, getting land and space that is not used and making sure that they get used with our, with our solution. Wow, that, that's great. I mean, especially the multi sport, I'm seeing that more and more, um, being able to play basketball, you know, uh, Pat the Padel, volleyball, all those multiple sports is what I, what I can see in residential.
Now, you said you had 160 courts out. Is that in a residential or commercial? What is the ratio there? Oh, I, I don't know. I mean, we sell like two to four courts here and there. Like if a client asked me like, Hey, I have a site, I have a long term, uh, site with, I want to build six, eight courts.
I actually recommend them to go with the traditional courts because then, uh, then our Advantages are basically gone, but a lot of existing business that want to add something to their, like, if it's a hotel or university or, you know, their site, uh, we install like one to four courts, um, as an addition to, so, um, the normal, I would say like in the UK, they have like two to four courts that is sort of a venue. But not more because, uh, then you can just build traditional. All right. Right.
So you're doing more commercial, commercial stuff then? Yeah. And I think, yeah. And I think that like, I'm really after the councils, the partner creations and the communities, but they really, really hard to, to work and get into, like, I'm not going to give up, right. But. It's really taking a long time and everybody just say yes, but nothing happens. So that is my main mission.
It's like to really get them to understand how many, how many sites we have out there that is not used or is really bad, right? Why can't we just make sure to get operators to get access to that so they can get some activity in line there?
Yeah, maybe that's part of uh the business, you know, uh being able to Have somebody have that information to help people, uh get into those those areas because that's that's kind of key, you know Yeah, somebody doesn't experience nose Padel Knows where to get a court from you, but really doesn't know the process of trying to uh work with a town Um in the park And put a core up there and maybe they go down there. He talked to him and then it's kind of like a dead end for them, you know?
Yeah. I mean, also like if you look at all the car, if you look at all the car parking operators, they have so many spaces that are not, they're not using, and they are so open to rev shares because they just want to commercialize that space, but they can't lease it out for more than two years. Right. So in that sense, if you look at an operator side in the US for instance, also Europe, they need to like get funding of like, you know, 2 million, 3 million, $5 million pre money.
To hope for getting back that back in three to five years, right? So there's a different type of place and I think that What what's essential to understand is that I don't see myself as a challenger or a competitor to other courts out there We're just a perfect alternative for the perfect suited place. So Uh, i'm not here to say that this court is the best in the world You have to use it, but it's a damn good alternative when you can't use the other options.
I think you're right I think that that's really smart. I mean, um, okay. Um, Christopher, thank you for coming on, uh, Padel Smash. Is there anything else you want to talk about before, uh, we close this out? No, I just, uh, want to give you a shout out and your partner because I met you guys at Wreck It X and I think that there was like, uh, The best energy that I got from the whole three days. So I really, really like what you guys are doing at Ultra. And I really like what you guys are about.
So just happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Julian would be here, but he had another, um, obligation at the time. Um, but I'll let him know that. Okay. Christopher, thank you so much. Um, and I want to wish you all the luck. Okay. We are all things battle.