Hi, everybody, Welcome to another edition of Packers Unscripted from Packers dot Com. I am Mike Spafford, joined as always by my trusted colleague Weston Hodkowitz. We're coming to you here from different locations at lambeau Field, wes. We are in the final week of OTAs for the Packers, with the mandatory mini camp to follow next week. That will be the final week of the off season program, and we have been witness as members of the media to
three practices so far throughout OTAs. I wanted to share maybe some of us just our observations where something sit on the depth chart, what we've noticed here and there, and again, as we talked about before OTA's even started, you take it a little bit with a grain of salt at this time of year, because coaches are trying out different guys in different spots, and nobody's put any
pads on yet, nothing's full contact. But that being said, one thing, one competition that has certainly gotten under way and to a certain extent, lived up to its billing, at least so far, is what's been discussed with regard to the starting safety position alongside Darnell Savage. Because in the practices that we have been witnessed to, and we've only witnessed three of the of the eight or nine
or however many there have been so far. But we have seen Rudy Ford with the number one defense with Savage, We've seen Jonathan Owens in that spot, and most recently, we've seen Tarvarius More in that spot. So you're talking about one hole over from last year, two guys who were brought in as free agents. That competition truly appears as wide open as it gets for a starting spot on this defense.
As wide open as I can remember, Mike among basically veteran players. In a way, it almost reminds me of when Charles Woodson was moving back to safety and the Packers were trying to figure out how they were going to replace him as a perimeter cornerback. You know, you obviously had I think Casey Hayward was coming in that year, but it was like Jared Bush and like all these veteran players. Sam Shields was trying to get back into
the conversation after a down year in twenty eleven. So here we are a wide open race with Ruby Ford coming back started a handful of games last year Jonathan Owens started every game last year for the Houston Texans, and then Tarvarius Moore is kind of this wild card. I don't know if it's because of Owens and you know the connections with Simone Biles and that storyline, but he's definitely been the more heralded, attention drawing signing for the Packers. But Moore was actually like one of the
first signings Green Bay made this offseason. I remember I was at actually the WA State Boys basketball tournament watching Rob Demowski's son play when we saw the message come through that More was going to be signing, and I remembered a little bit about him from his time with
the forty nine ers. But I think the bigger thing was he had that catastrophic injury, misses a full season and he came back, and it had always been a really solid, dependable, core special teams player fro him, but it seemed like he wasn't able to get that opportunity on defense again like he did before the injury. Well, if you look at his pedigree, mic a former third round draft pick, a guy that you know did have a lot of speed and attributes you look for coming
into the NFL, a few years back. Now he gets a fresh starting Green Bay. And when you're talking about trying to make a positive impression that two minute drill to end practice, you know, Jordan Love makes an ill advised throw across the middle late trying to hit Christian Watson for a twenty nine yard touchdown. Moore shows his veteran savviness, kind of hides in the background a little bit back in the weeds, darts out, gets the pick,
and that's what ended practice. So those are the type of plays that you're going to need to make if you're one of these safeties that wants to step up and grab that starting position.
Yeah, Moore is a really intriguing prospect. And I say that not because he's a young guy, but prospect for the tent starting role because as you said, he you know, he he's had some opportunities to start and get playing time on defense. Then he's dealt with injuries. He's been anytime he's been healthy. With the forty nine ers, he was a core special teamer and obviously the Packers are
going to be looking for that experience as well. Maybe the most interesting factoid about him, I think that has always stuck out to me, since the Packers signed him and we put some information on the website about him, is he has one interception in his career in his very limited playing time on defense, and it was in the Super Bowl against Patrick Mahomes at all of all moments, right, So officially he doesn't have a regular season interception as a defensive player, but he's got one in the Super
Bowl against a future Hall of Famer, So he's got that going for him, as we like to say. But yeah, which is nice. This competition though, to me, it has all the markings of one of these that that very well might not be decided until the first couple, maybe all three of the preseason games are played in terms of who will be starting next to Darnel Savage and who knows, depending on how Matt Lafleur wants to, you know, work things as far as the playing time in the preseason.
If Savage is is for sure you know the starter there as it appears to be, then maybe you know the preseason games, a couple of these guys will will start in those games and the end there'll be an even greater rotation of the reps with with some of
the top line guys who are out there. So this one is is a long ways from over, but we've certainly seen in the early stages of twenty twenty three here that the Packers are going to explore all their options to fill this starting role that has been vacated by Adrian Amos.
Well, keep one thing in mind, too, Mike. We've seen so many times now that the safety it's not just about who are the two back safeties, it's also about hey, who's potentially playing in the dime, who's gonna play in dollar If they go really defensive back heavy, there always is these opportunities. I think of how last year ended for Green Bay. You know, some injuries at cornerback. You're seeing in his Gains playing the slot late in the season.
You saw Darnell Savage playing closer to the line of scrimmage. So certainly, the safety body type I think that historically has been one that lends itself well to special teams. You know, I think that's a really big reason why. You know, down Levitt, you look at the path he took as an undrafted free agent Utah State, becoming a core player for the Raiders, and then last year becoming a core special teamer here for Green Bay. It's not
just about who wins that safety spot. It's about the other roles that they could potentially fill, and then all very quickly throw out Trek Carpenter and there at that as well. Now Tarik is playing now with the inside linebackers, learning from Devondre Campbell and Kirk O Lividatti at that position. But he's six foot three, six foot, you know, two hundred and thirty pounds somewhere in that range. I mean,
those type of hybrid body types. Even though the league has gone back to more of a traditional breakdown between inside linebackers and safeties, they're still going to be in that conversation when you look at sub packages and where players could potentially fit. But obviously you want to be a starter. Ruby Ford has tasted it to various more has seen some of it. Jonathan Owens did it last year for the Houston Texans. That is a hungry, hungry group for somebody to grab that opportunity.
Yeah, no question about it. I wanted to share a little bit too, as far as what we've seen, what we've observed with regard to the offensive line, because people, you know, folks are asking a lot of questions in terms of how this is going to shake out again, no definitive answers at this point, but in what we have observed in the practices we've been able to attend. We've seen Zach tom the second year fourth round pick, a year ago second year player out of Wake Forest.
We've seen him take some snaps with the number one offense at right tackle. We've seen him take snaps with the number two offensive line at center. We've also seen Yash Nyman earlier in OTAs was taking snaps at left tackle when David Baktiari was not doing eleven on eleven drills. But we've also seen Nyman obviously take his share of snaps at right tackle. Yester, I'm sorry. On Tuesday, I
gotta get my days straight here. On Tuesday, when Baktiari was not taking eleven on eleven snaps, we saw both Rashid Walker and Caleb Jones taking taking snaps at left tackle with the number one offensive line. When Elton Jenkins took a break at left guard, we saw Royce Newman step in with the number one offensive line there. So there's a lot, there's a lot going on. There's still a lot to sort out on the offensive line in terms of what what the pecking order is is going
to be. But with that, I'll turn it over to you and if you have any other observations as far as things you've seen with regard to the depth chart as mandatory MENI caamp is right around the corner.
Yeah, I mean, it's funny how it's a year later, but yet it's still very much the same where you're seeing Zach Tom play right tackle, center, left tackle, all these different spots that he's sort of been immersed in, and continuing that because as both you know, Luke Buckiss and Matt Lafleur and certainly Adam Senovich have talked about, they want to give him an opportunity to compete for a starting job this year and and with the very least,
you know, you need to have a backup center. If it is Josh Myers again, who's going to be the next guy up there? That could be Tom because I think it does feel like Elton Jenkins. They kind of want to stop that circle that Mary go around a little bit, keep him at left guard, let him get settled there and be the Pro Bowl player that we've
learned him to be. But the right side is such an interesting spot because as much rotation as we're talking about John Runyon Junior, as John Runyon Junior is wont to do, it just continues to hold down that position, and I think he's turned out to be a really a big pillar there. He kind of reminds me a little bit of a Lane Taylor where it's just as steady as they go type of player that you can sort of hitch your offensive line to and then try
to figure out what's happened at right tackle. That's not to say that he won't be competing to shoot. He's been doing some snapping as well. But the fact is is that the Packers know they have David Baktiari Elton Jenkins and a lot of opportunity. They want to give that opportunity to a group that has so many players
returning this season. Michael, and you know, even a guy like Caleb Jones that I don't think he's necessarily in the conversation for a starting spot right now, but the fact that he's been able to work a little bit at left tackle when yosh Niman is concentrating on right tackle, those are valuable reps for a guy that was an undrafted free agent and on college rookie last year out
of Indiana. That's what camp is all about. And you know, we're going to talk about some of these other things that are going on right now, and not to shift it away from the offensive line, but I asked Matt Lafleur about the cornerback situation during our media availability with him on Tuesday, because here's Carrington Valentine. Where a guy that otherwise a rookie, seventh round pick, who would not get reps with the number ones this time of year
while Jay Ry, Alexander Rasoul Douglas aren't here. So here he is working against Romeo Dobbs getting a pass deflection. Who stands out, who makes an impression for my eye, whether it's offensive line defense, any of these positions, you've seen a lot of young guys sort of grab the brass ring, I feel like in the three practices that we've been exposed to and really make a case for themselves.
Because at the end of the day, when you have less proven experience in your lineup, you want to see the young guys that really step up and grab that To bring it full circle, I think Zach Tom has been the epitome of that. I think a few years earlier,
John Runyan was a great example of that. In the more guys that kind of step up and grab those opportunities, and in allow that twelve person offensive line that returned from last year, the cream rises to the top and the Packers have plenty of opportunity and options to look at, you know, when you're trying to formulate who's going to be those starting five come this summer.
Yeah, and you have to believe, as you talked about, with the opportunity on the right side, that that is something that is going to continue all through training camp and through the three preseason games as the Packers make their way toward final roster decisions and then obviously starting lineup decisions for Week one. So a couple other topics to get to here, West, but I'll take care of
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Fifty years of better.
All right, A bit of a follow up that was, you know, maybe a couple of weeks in the making.
A while back, we had a media availability with the whole gamut of assistant coach and one of the interesting topics that came out of that was when the media was discussing with Ben Sermons AJ Dillon's twenty twenty two season, and Sermons sort of, you know, opened the door a little bit to some discussions that he's had with Dylan in terms of, you know, Dylan not being satisfied with how he played, looking to uh, you know, looking to take some major steps forward here in his in his
fourth season with the Packers. And then after practice on Tuesday, you were a part of a group of reporters talking with Dylan at his lockers. So I'm interested in what you learned from that conversation and what you can share with us on the show.
First and foremost, Mike, I just want to say how much I love Ben Sermons, and you know, in the NFL, how many times have you and I when we look at a new incoming coach coming in or maybe just looking around the NFL. Do we see these Wikipedia pages where these guys that in God bless them, but they have these long resumes where it's been at this place and then this place in two years here and one
year there. Ben Sermons has been the Packers running backs coach now for seven years, very quietly, has just done his job, developed Aaron Jones and Jamal Williams and made the transition with time Montgomery to running back and now his latest pupil has been AJ Dillon, longest tendered member
of the Packers' offensive staff right now. Second longest tendered I think to Jerry Montgomery on the entire team in terms of the coaching staff, and when you have a relationship with the player when you've been around them for three years, I think you can speak frankly, even in the media about where you feel like they need to grow.
And listening to AJ Dillon, it reminded me a lot of the conversation you had with Kenny Clark last year too, where there's this self awareness that is involved with it that says, hey, listen, last year wasn't a bad year for AJ Dillon. It was fine. But he has big goals, and I think what his thought process was is that he focused too much much on twenty twenty four when
he needed to be in the present. And he mentioned a line that Sermons talks about with the running backs, which is if you think you stink, and it's true. It's true for a lot of positions, but especially at the running back position where everything is so instinctual. And I think when AJ Dillon is at his best, he's playing powerful and instinctual. You know, he mentioned Neil. There's a lot of things. Not to make excuses, but he was just kind of letting us in on his world
a little bit. He's a new husband, he has a son coming, you know, he has a lot of things he's thinking about off the field. That's he's trying to set himself up for the future. Wants to come out dominate, be a powerback and a thousand yard rusher and all these different things. He just needed to focus on the
play that was in front of him. And I think you can tell there's a weight lifted off his shoulders a little bit going into year two, because Mike, you and I have said it for the last two years. This offense is at its best when it runs through Aaron Jones in AJ Dillon. Doesn't matter if it's Aaron Rodgers, Jordan Love or freaking you know, Mike Tomzak back there. When they are able to get their running game going,
they're playing premium football. That's what they need to get back to, and I think AJ Dillon appreciates that, listening to some of his self reflection and being able to sort of break down what happened last year and put his best foot forward because now there is no next year. This is all about this year and then whatever happens
happens in terms of his contract. But he wants to be able to really maximize his potential and show that he is the type of running back the Packers thought they were getting in twenty twenty when they use that second round pick on him out of Boston College.
Yeah, it's interesting to hear that and hear his perspective because we've talked to a lot of young players and watched their development and chronicled their development over the years, and you hear all the time, you know, guys going from that first year to the second year where it's like, hey, you know, yeah, I don't have to think as much about the playbook. You know, I can just play. I just I just react. It's not a thinking man's game anymore the way it can be as a rookie when
you're trying to figure everything out. Well, it almost sounds like Age Dylan, you know, he he did that in his second year, but then in his third year sort of got caught up in the in the thinking again. And and that's where a veteran player who knows a lot perhaps then is trying to do too much. He's
trying to he's trying to do everything perfectly. And all that does, all that does for an NFL player because this game is so fast and and holes, you know, for a running back, a hole is open for you know, zero point six two seconds. You know, I mean that the holes close quickly. You can't you can't think because
it slows you down too much. It's you know, you and I are big fans of the movie Bull Durham, and you know there's the great line where Crash Davis says to Nuke l Loosh, don't think meat, just throw, you know, And that that's how NFL player, the best NFL players, they aren't out there thinking. They because every all of the mental part of it is automatic. It's all it's all reactionary. It's all second nature to them. They just go out and play the game, and they
play it extremely, extremely fast. And the fact that the fact that aj Dillon recognized that in terms of his own season, in terms of watching the film, in terms of working with his head coach, I thought that I find that very revealing because you know how I am about talking about guys being, you know, being self aware, because that's more than half the battle in this league in terms of improving yourself is knowing who you are, what you've done, and what you need to do to
get better. And it looks like it looks like AJ Dillon is perfectly aware of what he wants to do here.
And that's what I love about Matt Lafleuur's philosophy too, because it's not like Lafleur came in in nineteen and was like, Hey, we're gonna reset everything. I'm going to bring in a new running backs coach. No, he saw the work that Ben Simmons was doing with Jamal Williams and Aaron Jones and was like, Yeah, we're going to stay on that path now. You have aj Dillon coming into that equation, and he's he's shown big flashes at times.
I still think back to that game in December against Tennessee a number of years ago where he looked like this is going to be one of the top running backs in the National Football League. I still think it can be. But it's just about making sure that he gets back to playing the way he did at Boston College when he is the featured guy, when he gets the opportunities. Because here's the thing he said, you know, there is times and I visualize this when he said it.
You know, he gets an outside zone and he gets the ball and he's thinking about, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do with it. I'm gonna be able to and you're trying to do the math too quickly. You just got to know that four times two is eight sometimes. And that's basically where he's trying to get back to. The cool thing about it is, though, the foundation with sermons, the fact that he has the friendship and relationship that
he does with Aaron Jones. It's all still out there for these guys and trying to show that this year, especially in a transitionary period with Jordan Love at quarterback guy that he's incredibly close with, that they can be the bell Cows that the Packers have really wanted them to be.
Yeah, Well, one more little anecdote to get to that I think will be fun to share before we go today, and it has to do with veteran defensive lineman Kenny Clark and that that position group that he's dealing with. And we've talked already this offseason about you know, Dean Lowry is gone, Jeron Jaren Reid excuse me as gone, they both left in free agency. Kenny Clark is the
leader of a group now that has TJ. Slayton, who is a fifth round draft pick a couple of years ago, DeVante Wyatt, who was a first round draft pick a year ago. Then you have a fourth round pick in Colby Wooden and a sixth round pick if I have that right, I believe six round in Carl Brooks. Kenny Clark is the is the man. He is, He is the real leader of a very very young group on
the defensive line. And well, it just so happens that one of those rookie draft picks that came in this year has has actually sort of been Kenny Clark in the whole Lake video game thing. You're the one who found.
That audio game thing.
You're the one who found that out for I'm from kolbe Wood, and so I'll let you tell the story better than I can.
Mike, when was the last time you picked up a video game controller and played like football game techno ball? Yeah?
Probably probably right around there.
No, But hey, that's what I loved about the story, because hey, dude, I'm getting older now too. But I thought it was such a fitting analogy and anecdote that Colby Wood And here's Colby Wood in fresh face, you know, Auburn senior coming in, new member of the Packers defensive line room, and you know he obviously you're going to know Kenny Clark is if you played defensive line, two time Pro Bowl and everything. But he said, He's like, oh no, I'm very familiar with this game. I played
with the Packers a lot in Madden. And I think that speaks to not only the fact that Kenny is a veteran now here in Green Bay, but also it sort of shows that even a twenty seven year old defensive lineman, there is this this age of Madden in video games that you're now this is how guys are going to know you coming into the league a little bit.
And the thing that I when I was going through story ideas for the spring, when I realize that, Yeah, Kenny's been a multiple time team captain, He's been a leader, he's been you know what two times, He's won the Media Good Guy Award here in Green Bay. He's never been the oldest member of his position room. Even after Mike Daniels and Detroit guy on Ricky, John Franzoon, all these guys, even Jaron Reed, they all moved on. Dean Lowry was a year older than him when they both
arrived here in twenty sixteen. Kenny was twenty true junior. Dean was a you know, full fledged Northwestern senior. And now here he is one hundred and fourteen NFL games. The rest of the room combined has fifty played in those. Of those eight players, only two have actually played in a regular season game, you know, TJ. Slayton and Devonte Wyatt. And Kenny is embracing that role like he doesn't look
at himself as the old head in the room. He looks at himself as a guy that can really be an extension of Jerry Montgomery and helped relate to these guys what is going to be needed of them this season, because here, Mike, the fact of the matter is, much like Kenny in twenty sixteen, especially twenty seventeen, the Packers
need these young guys to play. One of the analogies I threw in there was the fact that, well, why were we talking to Kobe wood in the first place, because last week he was in there with the first team defense when DeVante Wyatt dropped out of practice. Why it ended up being fine. He was back on Tuesday. He is making a couple of plays. But that's the next man up for Green Bay right now. It's Brooks, it's Wooden. Maybe it's a Chris Slayton, maybe it's Jonathan Ford.
But none of these guys had played in the National Football League before, So Clark is bringing them along and letting them know that the standard and sense of urgency involved with that. And then the last thing, I'll just leave you with the challenge that Kenny has brought on himself to be more vocal this year. Now, Kenny is one of the more affable people you're going to find
in the locker room. But again, kind of like Romeo Dobbs you were talking about earlier this week, He's not the type of guy that's just trying to start the party with everybody. You come and you want to talk to him, have a nice conversation, he'll have that. But he's now the biggest, extroverted, most boisterous player in the
locker room. But yet he knows that he needs to be a guy that's going to tell guys, this is the way we got to do it, this is why we need you to do it that way, because ultimately it's on him and that defensive front to improve because even though you lost Dean Lowry and Jaren Reed, there is still a huge jump that Green Bay is expected to make this year with the defense, and that's going to start up front with Kenny Clark and those young defensive linemen.
Yeah. What I think is so important too about having a guy like Kenny Clarks as the leader of that
position group. It's not just about his personality and his production and how he goes about his business as a pro, because all of that is very important, but as a leader of that group, he can also say to these young guys, hey, look at my stats for my rookie year, Like, yeah, I've developed a career where I've you know, I've gone to a couple of Pro Bowls, and I, you know, get four or five sacks a year as an interior defensive lineman.
But go look look.
At the stats from my rookie year. I wasn't set in the world on fire, and I was a first round pick, you know, drafted, you know, mid twenties overall out of UCLA. Kenny knows what it takes to progress and to get to where you want to be in this league. And he's not a guy whoever doubted himself, but yet to a certain extent, he still had to prove himself because he didn't come in and set the
world on fire as a rookie. And I think as an example as a guy who went through that himself, whether you're talking about DeVante Wyatt as a first round pick last year or a guy like TJ. Slayton who's now in his third year and is going to be expected to take on a lot more snaps and play a lot bigger role. Kenny Clark is as close to the perfect type of leader as you could ask for for that group.
And he was the perfect mentor for Wyatt too, because Wyatt talked about, you know, he understood coming in where he was being drafted, in the fact that they had all this veteran talent there, that he wasn't going to be a day one starter. But it does get tough when you get into the dog days of the year and you're only playing ten defensive snaps on a Sunday. You feel like you want to be able to do more. But it was actually Kenny kind of relaying his story
to DeVante. I didn't write about that this time, but it was a story at the end of last year. It was Kenny kind of telling him his path and how he didn't really come on until really towards the end of his second NFL season where he really busted on the scene. That type of message resonated really well with DeVante White because I think you could see the weight of the world kind of come off the young man's shoulders and understand, Okay, this is a process. I
am a first round pick. I'm going to be expected to produce, but this rome has not been built in a day. It's going to take some time to be able to become that type of difference maker, just like he was at Georgia in the path that he took with the Bulldogs. So Kenny Clark Man Casey a bolt that life. He's been a huge, huge anchor for this football team the last seven years, and certainly going into year eight, in addition to his own individual goals, will again be a big focal point of this defense.
Yeah, no question about it. He's a guy that He's a guy we've come to know and love, but we also enjoy watching him on the football field, and he's going to be a vital part of this Packers defense as he always is in twenty twenty three. So with that, we'll call it a rap on this edition of Packers Unscripted. Be sure to follow all of our coverage of the team OTAs we got mini camp next week. We've got it all for you on Packers dot com. For Wes,
I'm Mike. Thank you for tuning in everybody. We will see you next time.