#485 Packers Unscripted: Wrapping up the week

time kickoff. I think you and I are both headed in the same direction with where we're starting this conversation, So go, it's gonna be spoiler alert, shocker, Hold onto your seats. The run game will decide the victor in this matchup, Okay, but it does go both ways, right Bill Callahan, You know when you heard Mike Petton discuss it on Thursday evening, Matt la Floor touched on it. He wants to run the football. That's the way it

tried and true from the very beginning. That's his philosophy and it's the reason why he was ultimately picked as the interim head coach here. He had the experience and this is honestly what is allowed Washington to have the most success they've had all season as of late, and they have two really good backs. Now we got to see exactly what's going on with Adrian Peterson and this

toe injury. Yeah, he popped up on the injury report. Yeah, he didn't practice on Thursday, was a full participant presumably on Wednesday. So we got to see where that's at.

But Darius Guice to get him back, and that was one of the questions I asked Callahan on Wednesday how important that was for this offense because this is a guy from the very beginning, as I said, going back to last year, before the knee injury, before some of the things that he's had to overcome, he was considered one of the top prospects in that draft class and a guy that Washington was really excited about to build

their backfield around. There was a reason why for a number of years people weren't really sure what Adrian Peterson's role was going to be because Geiss was presumably the bell cow, the number one back. Well, now they found and fell into a spot where they were using both from last week, and I felt like that gave them their truest identity. So what does that mean for the Packers. That means you have to stop them, whether it's guys,

whether it's Peterson, or a combination of both. That is where this all begins for the Packers defensive front, Kenny Clark, Dean Lowry, like Martinez, all of those guys working together in tandem. Because on paper, yeah, it's been an up and down season for the Packers against the run. They have to make a statement this game because last week, Mike I felt like, for the most part, they did just that against a really dangerous sake Kuon Barkley. Yeah,

I thought the Packers did all right against Barkley. I mean, did they completely shut him down. No, But the way that the conditions in that game, the way the Giants certainly wanted to get that running game going, the fact that Barkley had only four point four yards per carry, didn't have any of those backbreaking type of runs. That was a pretty solid performance against a really good running back.

My question for you with regard to this one now, when, as Matt Lafleur I believe he said it earlier this week, the Redskins are going to come off the bus, wanted to run the ball. There they are. They are going to try to pound the Packers with the run in this game on Sunday with guys and Peterson schematically, how much of the true three four base defense do you think we'll see and by that I mean three down lineman, two outside linebackers, you know, a full five man defensive front.

How much do you think Mike Petton goes to that schematically here against this one too, punch of Washington. It depends on the first quarter goes because they do actually have a modification a variant of that base where they can use is Abraham Campbell almost at Isaiah Ibrahem Campbell as that other linebacker too. We saw it two weeks

ago against San Francisco. That's how they started the game against a run heavy team, Campbell as the linebacker, but yet still a five man front, so they I think a lot of it's gonna be okay, not only how you're defending the run, but how are you matching up with Terry McLaurin. How are you being able to you know,

eliminate some of the threats that are there. I mean, there's a real possible city, Mike, depending on how this injury port shakes out for Washington, they could start three rookie receivers in this football game, that's a real possibility. They're down their top two tight ends due to concussions. Those perimeter weapons need to be held in check, and I think that is going to be the tried and true test of how they can defend this team because in a traditional sense, this appears like a base three

four from the first quarter to the fourth. But if McLaurin is being able to hit some explosive, if the safeties aren't able to you know, contain that, well, then that's when you have to start shifting to your sub packages. So I really think that first fifteen minutes and how you stack up against it. I thought one of the real understated parts of that game against the Giants was, Yeah, they weren't able to run in the first quarter, they did hold Barclay back and that's what allowed them to

win some of those three and ounce early on. You need to be able to do that against Washington because, as I mentioned in a final thoughts video, we shot moments ago and one of our other mediums we just got our stocking caps taken off inside they are able to run the ball. That is the number one best friend, Dwayne Haskins right now, it's gonna be what he's gonna need. Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about it all week long that the Packers defensively, you've got to put this game

in the rookie quarterback's hands. You've got to make sure he doesn't have that best friend that he can rely upon. Now with Haskins, I'll give him credit. He's he's had four starts. He's essentially played five games because one of the games that he didn't start, he played a good chunk of it. So in essence, five games, he's taking

care of the football. Okay, certainly compared to Daniel Jones and and even Kyle Allen to a certain extent, he only has, I believe it's a half dozen interceptions, only one lost fumble, So he hasn't been this turnover machine as a rookie quarterback. But in those five games, essentially five games he's played, he's been sacked twenty two times, three drop backs. So defense, defensively, that's the Packers would love to be able to get after of the rookie

quarterback and make things difficult for him. But to get to that point, you can't let Peterson and guys get going. You have to shift the responsibility to the quarterback for Washington be able to move the ball, while Washington's goal is going to be the other way. They're gonna be trying to limit the responsibility on the rookie quarterback for the offensive success. Former Packers defensive line coach Mike Turkovac,

and it says something to me. I remember it was in two thousand thirteen or twelve, like maybe my first year even on the beat, and it was, you know, we make so much out of man versus zone coverage and all these things that we just kind of, you know, we always rattle them off, and it's just part of

the lexicon when it comes to football. One of the things very few people talk about is in the defensive front, whether or not your defensive lineman can jet rush, and what the risk and reward is of jet rushing with your defensive lineman, because if you send a guy like Kenny Clark who has that capability, that can potentially expose

you other places. That's why it's so critical to stop the run here because if you can that allow is Mike Petton and Jerry Montgomery that allows them to open up the playbook a little bit, because if you look at the games where Haskins has succeeded, it's because he gets the time to scan the field. As a rookie quarterback, he needs that extra millisecond to be able to process

everything that's going on. If you get pressure coming from the outside and you collapse the pocket up front, that's when the internal clock starts to speed up, and that's when guys start to make mistakes. That is what I think is critical because as much as people are gonna just say, well, it's Preston Smith versus old team and Zadarius Smith has twenty quarterback hits and those are the

two one, two primary options. No, I mean, as some of the things you and I have discussed this week, and you've articulated yourself, it's a lot on Dean Lowry and Kenny Clark and that defensive line this week, how they defend, how they hold their gaps, but also how they're able to push that front. Because it's been a really difficult year for Washington, but they still have some guys there. They've made some investments to make sure that they can actually get the protection they need for Haskins.

That is the number one chess piece, and I'm really intrigued to watch once the game gets started on Sunday. Yeah. Well, on the offensive side of the ball, the Packers would certainly like to get their running game going as well. Matt Lafleur talked about it. The Packers did not run the ball as well as they had hoped last week against the Giants. La Fleur said he actually put the offense in some bad situations as far as personnel packages and still trying to run. The Giants did have a

pretty tough front against the run. You give them credit there. I know a lot. There's there's a lot of talk outside the building west about getting Aaron Jones more involved in all this kind of stuff as far as the

running game specifically goes. I honestly don't care whether it's Aaron Jones or Jamal Williams, whichever guy is producing, but the Packers need to get that running game going because so much, so much of the rhythm and so much of the production that we've seen from this offense in twenty nineteen has come from the play action when the running game is working. So I don't really plays last week even when the running game wasn't working. I mean

early on. They had some nice runs in the first half and then the play action passes came off of it, and then in the second half it got to be a little bit more of a struggle there to run the football. So whatever it takes to run it, whichever back it is, and maybe because of the weather, Jamal Williams more of the bruiser, the power guy in the cold weather. Whatever it takes, the Packers have got to find a way to uh to run the football. You want to get that going here in December for the

stretch runs. So I have to add this Mike spotted caveat to this because at the time we take this, we haven't gone to practice on Friday. Jamal Williams was listed as a as a limited participant in Thursday's practice. Now was that being mindful of his workload with the knee injury or did something happen that we don't know right now? So I want to be careful with that in case this doesn't age well. But be that as it may. He was in the locker room yesterday. You

would hope and presume everything's okay. But the original points stands is firm and true. It is Aaron Jones and Jamal Williams in tandem. How you use those two guys and how they're able to be effective. What I'm looking for in this game particularly is they're going up against the ranked run defense that has been really up and

down from the Moss here. Now they do have Ryan Carrigan back, they have some of those guys that are there, they're stalwarts up front, so that certainly would change things. But it's just so it's so incredible how much different this offense looks when Aaron Jones is going off, when he is making the big place and the one thing we still haven't really seen yet in week fourteen is that's sixty yard breakthrough run. I mean, he has that capability on every play and at this point he still

as long as carries only twenty eight yards. That could happen this Sunday, It could happen next week against Chicago. Whenever Aaron Jones goes off, everything else follows suits. So I just think you don't want to It's it's so easy just to say, well, why doesn't he just carry the ball twenty times? Well, you you can't just keep running against a wall and going three and out, and you know that's your offense, and that's what you're hanging your hat, and you have to be more multiple and

diverse than that. But at the same time, what he did well in the Giants game is what you want to see them try to continue to do, which is those six and seven yard carries that stretch and and get you in those favorable second downs and favorable third downs. Because Aaron Jones and Jimal Williams are both talented enough that they're going to occasionally break a big run, but it's not being in second and eight and second and

nine that really is what puts you in a hole. Offensively, Yeah, and certainly getting into those manageable third downs is where Matt Lafleur, it's where Aaron Rodgers, that's where they want to be. And I'll be writing about this in my one Last Look column for Saturday. As far as okay, the Packers have four regular season games here too to make their last strides of improvement in all three phases. I think we know. On defense, it's about limiting the

big plays on special teams. It's about finding a return game. On offense, it's about getting more efficient on third down. Both Aaron Rodgers and Matt Lafleur brought that up when I asked the specific question, what is that, what is the focus for improvement over the final four regular season games? It's third out and you look at this game West, the Washington Redskins are thirtieth in the league and third

down defense. Now, last week against Carolina, after they fell behind fourteen to nothing, they stopped ten consecutive third downs. There was a stretch there it was actually eleven third downs where Carolina's only conversion was via a penalty. Now they got Carolina in a ton of third and longs. You look through the play by play in that game, it was third and sixteen, there was third and twenty three,

there was third and eighteen. I mean, Carolina was in these ridiculous situations and Washington's defense got on a roll. They kept stopping them on those third downs. But still, this is a defense that is thirtieth in the league on the season in third down conversion percentage. And that's something the Packers have to take advantage of and start to crank that up, start to turn that back the other way. Att, Yeah, and I do have a lot

of respect for what has happened with Washington. How Callahan has pulled this thing back together because this very easily could have been a two and fourteen one and fifteen type team the way the direction season went. Now that being said, your record isn't always what you say you are. The two wins that they have are over arguably the two most struggling, inconsistent teams right now in the league in Detroit and Carolina. They're in the conversation at least

a team that are going backwards right now. Certainly so in that regard, you take it with a grain of salt. But when that team steps on the field on Sunday, they're not going to care about who they've beaten or what their record is. They care about the fact that they've won two games in a row. They're going to have some wind in their sales, and they want to suddenly pull themselves back into this NFC East race. That it really looks like eight wins could win this thing,

maybe seven. So that nothing you can't you can't say anything's out the door, You can't say anythings out the window. It goes back to the exactly what I was saying in this very seat at almost the exact moment a week ago. Giants struggling. The Giants had the record they had. The Green Bay Packers have nine wins for a reason, they need to go out in lambeau Field on Sunday at home in front of their home crowd. Improve it. Yeah, it's time to take care of business certainly. Well, you

mentioned the NFC East race. We saw a Thursday night game. The Dallas Cowboys went into Soldier Field and quite frankly, West they stunk it up and the Bears took advantage. The Bears got Mitchell Troubinsky running with the ball again, both scrambling out of the pocket, read option runs, all

kinds of things. Suddenly, the running Mitch Trubisky that I thought was a big part of the Bears going twelve and four last year, he's back that that's what they're doing, and it got them a big win over the Dallas Cowboys thirty one to twenty four. And the game was not that close, quite frankly, not not not even close to being that close. And the Chicago Bears are seven and six. They're still hanging in this thing in the NFC to try to make a push for the playoffs.

The Dallas Cowboys still lead being the NFC East at the moment, but at six and seven, with Philadelphia trying to right the ship, and quite frankly, the Washington Redskins looking now at an opportunity that hey, we're three and nine, but if we run the table at seven and nine, it might actually be enough to win the division. Washington is not completely out of this yet. So the one of the things I really hated about the narrative this game,

and I watched basically all of it. The first thing, on Dallas's side, They're gonna put a lot of this on Mayher, the kicker, Brett Mayhor. They're gonna put a lot of it on Jason Garrett. That is as bad as I've seen a team defend the read option in the last five years. I mean, it was there was no commitment to the ball carry at all. It was selling out for the running back. It was just making the wrong decisions at the wrong times, and they picked him apart. The Bears were able to do at will

what they wanted to do. They had the explosive chunk places and they just had the momentum. I mean, defensively, they made the plays when they need to, They got the pressure when they needed to yeah, other than Troubinsky throwing that interception at the goal line like on the first possession. Other than that, it was like Dallas couldn't

stop him all the all night long. So and from the Bears perspective, the one thing that has been kind of maddening for me, and I think you can only really have this perspective if you're on the outside looking in, because I think people in Chicago are really quick to jump on Trubisky, whether it's media or fans. I've tried to be right down the middle with this guy from

the very beginning. I didn't buy into the hype at the bending of the year that this guy is going to be an m v P candidate and all that. But I also never really got to the point where it was like, no, you gotta move on, you gotta find a new quarterback, which is what the narrative kind of was. Mitchell Trubisky is a really talented guy, and when you call the game to accentuate his strengths, like Mattnege, to his credit, did on on Thursday Night, you see what he can do to a defense. Now Dallas is

struggling on defense. They are not the defense I thought they were when they played the Packers earlier this season, but you have to play the team that's in front of you. So whether it was you know, Montgomery being able to you know, get some yards and actually build some momentum out of the backfield, just what Trubisky was able to do with the ball in his hands and spreading it around. They made the plays they need to make, and when they got the turnovers and takeaways, they executed

on them. Yeah, well elsewhere here in Week fourteen, we won't spend too much time talking about the Lions traveling to Minnesota because quite frankly, I'll be shocked if Detroit in the situation there and and with Minnesota coming off of a difficult loss, but but certainly a performance that was nothing to hang their head about in a tough road environment in Seattle. I think Minnesota wins that the Packers are going to need to win to stay a game ahead of the Vikings. But two big games in

the NFC that we definitely need to talk about. What's a pair of ten and two teams. The San Francisco forty Niners. We'll be traveling to New Orleans to take on the Saints, and then in Sunday Night football. The Seattle Seahawks, coming off of that big home Monday night win over Minnesota, they will go to Los Angeles to play a Rams team that seems to have found a little bit of new life. The Rams are at seven and five, and they were trying to stay in this

NFC playoff mix as well. Yeah, they're trying to stay in the orbit of this whole thing. And the thing that differs from where the Rams are where the Bears are. The Bears have a really they have a grind coming up here, including Green Bay. Yeah, they are sitting at

the Bears. The Bears get the extra rest now, the mini buy with the Thursday night game, but then they have Green Bay Kansas City in Minnesota to finish the season, and the Bears are looking at needing to run that table to get to ten and six and then let the Chips fall and see if they're in the mix. Yeah, whereas you look at the Rams right now, they have Dallas coming up. They do have to face San Francisco at San Francisco and then they actually close the season

at home against Arizona. So there's still very much in the thick of this thing. If they can get on a run. You'd imagine they're gonna have to beat Seattle or and or San Francisco probably and uh to really make a run at this thing, but they're still in it as well. A great matchup. It'll be interesting to see exactly how Seattle responds. Uh. Just an incredible game that they were a part of too. To be able

to pull that out and everything that went into it. Uh, you saw, I thought the resiliency from Russell Wilson bounced back from smart early adversity and now he's gonna be taken on a RAMS defense that's look pretty good as

of late. The main event, and we've been pointing towards this for months has been San Francisco versus New Orleans because these are the two teams I think since the very beginning of the season, once they started to realize when San Francisco got on this undefeated run, they're legitimate their contenders and they can win the way that they play and New Orleans is just a different type of bird.

I mean, the way that they come together and we're able to get through Drew Brees injury and get Breeze back on the field and he hasn't been perfect, but he's played well and just keep the cylinders running the whole time. That's a huge testament to Sean Payton. And I'm really interested to see how this week plays out because every single game in some shape or form has implications for Green Bay. Who wins, how they win, and you know where everything falls after that. If you're a

Packer fan, you're cheering for the Rams. Is that right? Or how do you see that? Yeah? I think as as a Packer fan, I think you're child that you w note you're hoping that. I think because because the potential for a first round by is still there. I think you're cheering for the Rams to beat the Seahawks.

And and and I'll have this by the way, in my Path to the Playoffs, it is returning two Packers dot Com Path the Playoffs will be posted later in the day on Friday, so check that out over the weekend. But yeah, I think you want the Rams to beat the Seahawks, and I think you want the forty Niners to beat the Saints, because when you look at it from the from the big picture, if the Packers are going for a potential first round by one of those

top two seeds the Seahawks and the forty Niners. Only one of them can get one of those spots because they're in the same division. Whoever doesn't win that division is going to be a wild card. So the Saints, who have already clinched the NFC South, there a division champ. They are fighting for one of those top two seeds. That's really the team. If you just say, okay, between the forty Niners and the Seahawks, whoever wins the West

is going to get one of the buys. Then if you're the Packers, you're like, okay, Well, if the Packers can overtake the Saints, then you would get the second one. So I think you want New Orleans to lose. But regardless one of those teams, the Saints of the forty nine Ers, barring and overtime tie, will be ten and three. And if the Packers beat Washington, the Packers are ten and three, and then you're looking at a little bit different picture here the last three weeks. I'm glad you

do path to the playoffs. I don't think my i Q level or my a c T scores high enough to well you can you can read it and get all caught up, and then we can talk about Sunday. We can talk about it Sunday morning when we reconvene in the press box. But before we go here west, there is one other thing we'll go a little bit over time because a couple of weeks ago and it's a subject we just haven't gotten to yet with everything

else going on. Leroy Butler, former Packers safety, for the third year in a row, has reached the semifinalist stage in his bid to gain induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio. Now, the previous two years he has not gotten from the semifinalists to the finalist stage. Semifinalist stage is the top twenty five candidates for induction. Then when it goes to the finalist stage,

I forget and I was a ten or fifteen. So then it'll be whittled from twenty five down to fifteen before the Hall of Fame Selection Committee meets on Super Bowl weekend and then they whittle it down from fifteen to a maximum of five modern day inductees from this group. UM, I know you have some thoughts here on Mr Butler and his candidacy. I know you and I are very much on the same page with this, but I'll give

you the floor for the moment. Well, the journalistic oath here, I have to admit, like there is an internal bias with me. I've known Leroy Butler since two thousand thirteen. I did a radio show with him for four years, So there is a personal investment here. I want to disclose that. So it isn't just that I'm just spouting off on all this. But that being said, when I was at the Green Bay Press Gazette, I remember the conversation.

It started to get you get fired up a little bit, especially as kind of the the relation and um, you know, kind of the field towards safety started to turn, started to get a little bit more respects what I'm trying to say. And there was a time that I kind of in my mind was able to understand maybe why Leroy Butler had been overlooked. He got hurt, his career was over after two thousand one. Maybe he just didn't play quite long enough. Yeah, the career did end sooner

than expected. And then about two years ago I said, that's absolute garbage. I don't know what I was thinking with that, because then you start to see some of these guys. Ten years in the league is a long time now. Was Leroy Butler starting safety from day one? No, he was a cornerback. Took two years from to go and play safety. Once he did, he became an All Pro. I believe the only four time All Pro safety that

isn't in the Hall of Fame if I remember that correctly. Yes, all any, any and all safeties who have been first team All Pro four or more times, every single one of them is in Canton except for Butler. And I tweeted this a couple of days ago. And you can go back and write any number of stories I've written on le Roy over the last time. I should I should clarify who are eligible because Troy Polamalu is you know, um, he's another one of those guys on the list, but

he just hasn't gotten far along yet. He'll be in there. So this is the thing I struggle with with this whole thing with Leroy is that. And I tweeted a couple of nights ago. If you watched Packers, and I know you did, and you tell me that that team had to count them one too. Reggie White bred five to Pro Football Hall of Famers on that team, and that's the reason they won the Super Bowl. That's the reason they turned around this whole narrative with the Green

Bay Packers and they went to back to back. Everything relied on them. You are a fool le Roy Butler in the way that Friz Shermer used him. I keep saying this over and over again, and it's getting kind of old. But he was hybrid before hybrid was cool. He did not play strong safety like strong safeties played strong safeties at that time. He played something more. It's the reason he had as many sacks as he did.

I am not asking the Pro Football Hall of Fame voters to put him in the Hall of Fame this year. I'm not asking that because I have a lot of good friends on that panel that I respect mightily. I am asking you to get him in the final fifteen because the fact that Larroy Butler in two thousand nineteen has not had Pete Doherty or Cliff Crystal standing up there presenting his case to that panel is embarrassing. It

is embarrassing. All due respect to Steve Atwater, all due respect to John Lynch, I hope they both get in the Hall of Fame at some point. The fact that Larroy Butler has not been up there and is considered a tear below those two guys is unjust. Yeah, I agree with you, and we were discussing this before we

turn the cameras on. I have nothing against John Lynch or Steve Atwater, but when a couple of weeks ago, when Butler was announced as a semifinalist for the third year in a row, I answered a question and insider in box with regards to Okay, what are his chances. We've seen John Lynch and Steve Atwater both make the finalist stage over the last couple of years, Butler has

gotten knocked out at the semifinalist stage. I look at I look at Atwater specifically if you're going to make a side by side comparison, and the thing that I think is really unfortunate because Butler's a four time first Team All Pro. At Water's got a couple of All Pro nods, has a bunch more Pro Bowls, Yeah, he has I think eight Pro Bowls. Butler doesn't have that

many Pro Bowls. You look at the statistics, interceptions and sacks, Butler's got him beat um So from a statistical standpoint, there's a really strong case for Butler, and I have nothing against Atwater, but what I think is unfortunate here is it feels like the reason at Water, who played a long time for the Denver Broncos, has been a finalist and Leroy Butler has not is because of the result of super Bowl thirty two. Because of that result, Steve Atwater is a two time Super Bowl champion and

Leroy Butler has one super Bowl ring. And I personally think that if that Super Bowl thirty two result had been reversed, that where we'd be right now is Butler would be the finalist and at Water would be the guy on the outside looking in. And I don't think that's right. That that's the part to me that is unjust because, as I said, nothing against Lynch or at Water, and Lynch I think is a little bit different case. But looking at looking at Atwater and Butler, why why

does the number of Super Bowl rings matter? It was one game. It was one game in San Diego in January that it feels like it's that's what's blocking Leroy Butler from getting further in this process. And I think that's wrong. And I have to present this too, at least on the record, there is one coach from that game that talked about needing to take away the other team's safety. That coach was not Mike Holmgren. That was Mike Shannon talking about trying to take away Leroy Butler.

He is the guy that we need to have a hat on. He's the guy we need to be able to eliminate. The reason there's a lot of all I'm asking for is that if you look at the Pro Football Hall of Fame process, and it is not an easy process. I can continually admit that. But the way this thing has gone in recent years is they create it seems like they've created this line. Okay, at Waters a two time finals, he moves up a little bit. Unless you're a unanimous first bout Hall of Famer, you

know it. Lynch has been in the conversation, move up a little bit. I just don't want to be in a position where Atwater and Lynch get in his modern day nominees and they push Leroy Butler off so that when he's sixty years old or whatever, he can go in. He has to go the Roy Butler is at peace with the fact he's going to be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He's the calmest cookie in the room as it. Yeah, he absolutely believes it's going to happen,

and he doesn't. He doesn't sweat it, which I give him credit for that because because yeah, you and I are the ones who are sweating it right now. But for little old Green Bay, Wisconsin, if you've lived here, if you've been a part of this thing, you understand what it was like for twenty nine years to be in just complete irrelevancy. But Wright Butler was a big part of this resurgence. People. Brett Favre was fun, He

was the trend setter. He he did everything as the face of this franchise to make the Packers cool again. Reggie White believed he came in and changed the culture that defense. Roy Butler is on that Mount rushmore though, at least as it relates to the Packers and the success they had in the nineties. Yeah, I certainly agree with you, and we have run over time. But we're

very much the rap on this edition. In this week of Packers un Scripted, be sure to follow all of our coverage of the team and of Sunday's game from lambeau Field against Washington on Packers dot com. Subscribed to us, like us on iTunes and other podcast services, and check out the Packers YouTube channel for all of your great video content for West I'm Mike. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.