#454 Packers Unscripted: The forgotten and the controversial

But with the Packers just having played on Monday night, there's still a few too many things we need to follow up on from that game, because it really is one that has generated a lot of discussion, and I want to get to some of the things with the officiating later on, but first I want to touch on some of the things that Matt Lafleur mentioned in his Tuesday press conference in which he was bringing up some of what you might call the the little known, the

behind the scenes types of plays, moments that happened in this game that allowed the Packers to come back not once from thirteen points down, but then a second time from nine points down in order to win this game. And really it starts with the very first play of the game with the flea flicker over the top to Kenny Golladay and who's chasing him down to prevent a touchdown from happening. But jaire Alexander one of the fastest

guys on the field. Yeah, coming from the other side of the field as Golladay sort of crossed the hash marks. It was a great heads up play. And it's funny because explosive plays hurt, right, They're called explosive for a reason. I mean, those are remember all the years Don Capers will talking about it. The percentage chances that you have of giving up points are giving up a touchdown after you're explosive play. They just spike as soon as something

like that happens. But mentally, the Packers defense has just been on a different plane this year. So for Alexander to get down field, trip him up at the ten or eleven yard line, whatever it was in in the defense to hold that was four points right there. At the time, everybody's just looking at it and going right off the bat, you know the Lions are scoring. It's

a huge play at this defense. You know they're getting gash like this, and then when you get to the fourth quarter you never really think back to it was a little moment like that that ultimately keeps the Packers in this game. Yeah, I mean, the Packers did catch a break there with the fumbled snap, fumbled exchange on first down that put the Lions a little bit behind the chains on that series, but then second down, third down, the Packers did get the stop and force the field goal.

And yeah, bottom line is that's four points. Where a big sixty six yard play if that's only going to cost you three points, just as we were talking on yesterday's show, when you commit turnovers on offense, but yet those only cost you three points the other way as opposed to seven. Those are the kinds of things that

add up in close ballgames. This is not what you want to talk about, but I just want to because it's a good moment for you to mention Jaire Alexander one of the big gripes that I have, uh and I was guilty of it two when I was at the newspapers. We we operate week to week. It's a three and six day new cycle. There seemed to be this narrative that crept up in the last couple of

weeks and maybe Jr. Alexander isn't playing to form. You realize, if you just focus on one player and you do a story every week on that player, he's gonna play well, there's gonna be not so good weeks, and then he's gonna play well again. Alexander has played well more often than not. And that's the reason why I believe he's leading the league right now with ten passes defense. The fact that you know, Pro Football Focus said he only gave up one catch, which is a debatable to j D.

Mckessic for three yards. I mean, he just played a whale of a ball game. And then obviously, as you mentioned there, even that wasn't his guy against Gallada, stayed with the play, showed the effort, and was able to get that tackle. Yeah, when you look at that flea flicker on film, Alexander just turned and went into a dead sprint as soon as Stafford released that ball and threw it deep, and that's why he was able to

end up catching up with Golladay. A similar thing in uh one of your posts, an insider Inbox that you posted this morning, where a fan of pointed out, hey, you know, a guy like Elton Jenkins running down Justin Coleman after the goal line that and and Jenkins didn't make the tackle, But that's that's an example of why you always pursue and you never give up on a play because just the more guys you can get anywhere near the ball on a return like that, he has to slow up or he has to try to make

a move, and then somebody can eventually get there. So instead of that being ad interception return for a touchdown, it's a fifty five yard return. The Packers defense holds and they kick another field goal again, potentially four points that are saved by just flat out hustling, awareness and

heavy play. And let's be honest here, I think if you talk to Jason Simmons and Mike Petton, they want to see that kind of energy and enthusiasm and you know, just making that extra play from a guy like Jaire Alexander who runs a four three whatever. Elton Jenkins is an offensive lineman a lot of times. I'm not saying you preach this. You obviously want everybody running to the ball, but those as are usually the ones that get the free pass if they maybe aren't getting downfield to make

that tackle. I just thought that said a lot about Jenkins. I also thought I said a lot about his athleticism. Um, even if he doesn't run like Jerry Olexander being able to get downfield to make a play. He has really impressed me. Mike, You've covered a lot more offensive lineman than I have in Green Bay. But for a first year player coming in. I was talking to Corey Lindsley about it late last week. He's as impressive as any

rookie that they've had on that offensive line. I mean, and that's a great offensive line where Bok Tri, Corey Lindsley, they all played as rookies. Elton Jenkins is picking this up as quickly as anybody. It's one of the reasons why when they lost Lane Taylor, there really hasn't been a hiccup at that spot. Yeah, and and not to take anything away from guys like Bok tr and Lindsley who played very very well as rookies, but those were

guys who weren't necessarily going to play as rookies. They were thrust into the role and they responded and they've held down those jobs. Elton Jenkins was pressing for a starting job from the day that he got here. And yes, Lane Tiler's injury ended up you know, maybe expediting that process or just made it more seamless in some ways that he's replacing a veteran, but he has rewarded the coach's faith in him right from the get go. Yeah, totally.

And it was funny too, because, uh, you know, listening to Lindsley talk about it, he said, you know, when you look at the offense that he was coming into with Mike McCarthy and fourteen, and he said, it's just

it's it's not quite day and night. But I mean, with what Jenkins has been able to do picking up Lafleur's scheme, it's the reason why for as athletic as he is and as many measurables as there were making it being a second round pick, the really reason, the true reason behind why he's been able to play is just the intelligence there to step in and know what

he's doing. Yeah. Well, another one of the guys la Fleur mentioned on Tuesday was defensive lineman Dean Lowry, and boy did he play a whale of the ball game too. Huh boy, And you look at this this Packers run defense. La Fleur came right out and said it, Hey, it's been a problem for a few weeks in terms of

in terms of stopping the run. And yes, the Detroit Lions have never really had a very good running game, but carry On Johnson has had his moments in this league and has had his good games, and he could not find anywhere to run. Thirteen carries for thirty four yards. You take that against a number one running back from an opponent any day of the week. And Dean Lowry was a big part of that. So a couple of

things of this one. As you mentioned, the Detroit Lions have not historically been a good running team, but two weeks ago that game against Kansas City, they were in that because of carry On Johnson and how they were able to move the chains and control the tempo of the ball game and not making a shootout with Patrick Mahomes. He's coming off a twenty five yard game, and I know what the yards per catch a better yards per

Russia been for him this year. Not extraordinary, but when used effectively and consistently in building that momentum, he's been really difficult to stop. The Packers did that in this game, and I think, you know, I talked to Lowry by myself after the game, and you could kind of feel like he said there was some gratification there. They heard what people have been saying. They know they haven't been

playing the way they wanted to. And I, you know, not to speak for Lowery, but I think he really did take that a lot on himself to be accountable into, you know, step up in that situation. I think the Packers were smarter with how they use their defensive lineman in this game. I didn't see them jet rushing as much. I sat saw them paying a little bit more attention to the gap and then getting up field. Yeah, right, it wasn't it was. It wasn't as much upfield attack

right at the line of right. It was more just being sound and fundamental. I thought he Kenny Clark and give a lot of credit to Tyler Lancaster and Montrevia's Adams too for how they rotated in. It was funny, Mike, you go back about six years ago. I remember talking with my old colleagues at the Press Gazette, like, you know, pays defense. It's just kind of thing of the past. I mean, it's getting to be more and more nickel.

You base your front off of those two interior defensive tackles, and you've got your edge rushers and that's the whole kitten caboodle. And now the last two seasons especially, you've seen the Packers, I would argue, and I don't have the stands in front of me. You've seen the base defense spike in this league the last few season. It probably goes hand in hand with the running back resurgence

that we've seen. We've seen more of it this year in with those defensive linemen doing their job against the lines. I think that freed up Blake Martinez, b J. Goodson to be able to, you know, get into those gaps fit have the room to make plays. And as you said, I mean the longest run of the day was Matthew Stafford's tenure at scramble. You know, whether it was mckissic or whether it was the other running Johnson Johnson whose names escaping me now Carrie on Johnson. Regardless of who

it was, they weren't able to get traction. Yeah. Well, if you want to see one snapshot anyway of Dean Lowry against the run by what you might have missed for this game, which just posted on the website shortly before we came in here to take this. I take a look at the goal line stand sort of the goal line stand that wasn't because the Packers ended up

giving up the touchdown. Close call, I know. But the first downplay, which is part of that segment, if you want to take a look at it, Dean Lowry just it's absolutely textbook run defense. He sheds the block and blast carry on Johnson in the hole. It's at from the three yard line, and it's no game. It goes from first to go on the three, to second and go on the three, and Lowry is the guy that makes the play. So if you want to get a quick look at that, that is on our site. Yeah.

I just felt like he played like his tail on fire. I mean, in real time, I felt that way, but especially when I went back and looked at it. Certainly you broke down the all twenty two of it. But when I finally got chance to go back and watch the TV copy, I mean, he just Dean Lowry. I thought it wasn't his biggest statistical performance. It was only four tackles, but I thought it was just a really solid all around outing that he had. Yeah, there's no reason.

There's a reason the Packers gave him a contract extension before this year started. All right, I do want to get to, as we promised on yesterday's show, some of our thoughts about the officiating and how things went down in this game against the Lions. I know you and I are in agreement on this, so we'll definitely start here with regards to the two hands to the face penalties on Trey Flowers that the entire city of Detroit, most of the state of Michigan is up in arms

over how I just went down. Well, yeah, lower Michigan certainly lower. Right. Um, you and I we discussed this at lunch yesterday. You wrote about it an insider inbox. For me, it's the fool me once, fool me twice kind of line. I mean, yeah, if Flowers is upset about the calls, well, you got called for it once

in the fourth quarter. So the fact that you got called for it again later in the fourth quarter, you can blame the ref cell you want on the first one, but then the second ones on you because you were doing the same thing that got you called in the first place. That's how I look at it. He could have avoided the second one, certainly, and uh, and I put it on him. Yeah, Um, it's the old Einstein thing, right.

I mean, here, here's the thing. There's a couple of different columns and analysis and that have been written in the preceding days, some outraged, some you know a little bit more towards the middle. In my general takeaway has been, because you know, this is how I always handle these things. I go when I read all the sources, I've taken all the opinions, and then I you know, proceed from there. There's two major things that you have to consider if you're a Packer fan or you're a Lion fan. In

this is objective. This is not subjective. This is not opinionated. This is the truth. The lines didn't finish drives. They didn't. They end up having to settle for five field goals. When you kick that many field goals and you're playing another team on the road, not a recipe for the success. If you're going to do that and you're going to leave those points on the board, you have to understand.

I'm guessing all these people who are outrage have never played an R and G game before, But you have to understand that there's going to be factors out of your control that are going to dictate the final outcome of the game. It doesn't matter if it's an injury, it doesn't matter if it's a penalty, it doesn't matter if the wind changes direction and the field goals aarry. You can't count on every factor to give you a close, narrow victory. The Green Bay Packers know that as well

as any team in the NFL right now. When you go back to last season, there's randomness to the should have won the game against the Minnesota Vikings. The randomness and the close knit nature of that game did not allow them to. And you have to move on. So the big point I'm trying to make you here is the vitriol and I've seen a lot of it in my mentions that people have over this thing. Get a grip, move on because the fact of the matter is is that if that game would have been seven, none of

that matters. And getting back to your original point about Flowers, I'm not saying he was wrong, you know, And and certainly the NFL has had their two cents on it now and Troy Vincent has spoken his two cents. But the way I see it is they were the kids in the classroom. They were not the chaperones. They were not the teacher. The teacher told them a certain way that this classroom is going to run today, and Flowers

still win against it. I'm not saying it's right. But when you go home to your parents and you have the two pink slips from the day and you've got to explain to what happened, I mean, maybe your parents patchy on the back and tell you what's gonna happen. I know my dad would have been like, why didn't

you correct your action the first time? That's my point, and I understand I understand the frustration of the Detroit Lions fans when you're talking about all the way back to the Calvin Johnson play that started everything about the catch rule, and the playoff game in Dallas with the past interference that wasn't called, and the Monday night game against Seattle when the guy bats the ball out of the end zone and they completely botched that call, and

there have been others. I get it. I get the frustration, but the league, in some ways west My next point is that the league in some ways also does this to itself with these points of emphasis that they come up with every year. Hands to the face has been a point of emphasis, So has offensive holding. We've seen David bak Tr get called for offensive holding this year more than he has maybe in the last two or three years combined. Is a three time All Pro suddenly

a penalty prone liability on the offensive line? No, he's not. It's this point of emphasis thing, and bok Tr is still trying to adjust to it. And to his credit, he's not standing in front of his locker every week talking to reporters and complaining, sorry, I had to catch myself before I said the wrong word, complaining about the fact that he's getting getting calls when these are the types of things that haven't been called in the past.

So the league does this to itself and does this to the players with these points of emphasis, and it's only going to be natural, it's only human nature for officials when they're put on notice with these points of emphasis. That means the league wants to see the calls. So guess what the players are going to be the victims here,

And that's how this thing goes. If the league wants to avoid all of this and all this officiating controversy, the single point of emphasis, quite frankly, needs to be If it's not obvious, don't call it, because nobody's gonna complain, right, nobody's gonna see it on the video, nobody's But the league is not saying the point of emphasis is if it's not obvious, don't call it. The league is saying, this is a point of emphasis. That's a point of emphasis.

So they're judging the officials on making these kinds of calls. So this is where we are. Yeah, this is where you have to where you are and how you have to adapt. It's the same reason why to to man Patricious credit it. I know there was the complaining a little bit about Will Redmond if there's too much contact

down field. I was totally on board with Patricia not calling it because if you follow the stats one of the last twenty four when teams have been trying to get a p I call offer of you have been successful, those odds do not weigh in your favor. It's going to be what the call on the field is. And he made the right adjustment, I think, honestly. As I also wrote an insider inbox on Wednesday, Patricia said all

the right things. He said, we need to play better, we need to finish drives, We need to do those things. He knew this game was in their hands and they and they let it. As you said, initially, the Lions let this game become subject to all these others, all the r G, all that type of stuff. And you know, Matt Prator was their m v P. He had a phenomenal game. But you can just going back to that well that many times you need to be able to execute,

you need to get points off of takeaways. That's why the Packers were able to squeeze their way back in and too close on this with David bok tr I think one thing that said a lot about box t R two is after his holding penalty, he would out there. I don't know if you remember that drive. He was out there talking to the ref minutes minutes between the end of the field goal or what however the play ended, and then the opening kickoff. He's trying to figure this out.

He's working on him, showing him where he's going with his hands, and then and he's trying to have that dialogue and discord. That's what you need to be able to understand this. I'm not saying it played into how things went later on, but if he's going to make the corrections. He needs to have the communication. I'm not saying Trey Flowers didn't, But the fact of the matter is, Mike, whatever you want to say, and you can apologize to Mrs Ford, you can apologize to every fan that has

ever you know, warrened Lion's jersey. That's all well and good. The game is the game, the result is the result, and the call is the call. And in that particular case, Trey Flowers ended up getting called for it twice and

the Detroit Lions ended up losing. Yeah, one other thing on the officiating that I want to touch on A touched on it a little bit yesterday, and what I'm talking about is the fourth and goal play for the Detroit Lions, which of course was a huge call, a huge moment in the game because that's the difference between

seven points and zero points. We talked about a lot of four point swings in this game, but this was a seven point swing, and to me, this was a perfect example of how the replay system is not being processed or adjudicated correctly in the sense that we saw on the field. The one side judge on the top of the screen was saying Packers ball, it was a stop short of the goal line. The guy, well Blakeman was next to him, was was was next the side. The side judge on the lower side of your TV

screen was signaling touchdown. Blakeman at the top of the screen initially saw the one call and he actually signals first down the other way for the Packers, which is what the referee is supposed to do. Then suddenly, with no discussion at all amongst the officials on the field, Blakeman turns his microphone on and says, the called field is touchdown. Now, to me, it is absolutely obvious that Blakeman did what he did and said what he said, because if he calls it a touchdown, it goes to

automatic review. Right, So then by saying by not saying the Packers got the stop, and by saying it's a touchdown, it goes to automatic review and Patricia doesn't have to challenge it. From the Lions side of things, the problem is the replay review rule gives all this weight to the call on the field. So the fact that is the official you're saying, oh, it's a touchdown, so it'll be automatically reviewed, we get to wash our hands of it. Because of replay. Well not really, because that call in

the field matters when you go to review. So to me, the point I want to make with all this excuse me, I'm starting to lose my voice a little bit. It's is that the way that we replay rule is written with the call on the field taking precedence. It's an anequated notion. It's completely outdated when replay. I know you

were young when replay came in in the nineties. Okay, the rule was written the way it was written because there were only a couple of camera angles and if a camera angle didn't catch really what happened, or there wasn't a good look at it, the call in the field had to matter, so you would stick with the

call in the field. Un that's the video evidence showed you. Otherwise, when in this day and age, is the video not giving us a better look than what the guy on the field has, right, So if the video, if all these camera angles in the super sloma was always going to give us a better look, then call what you see on the video and to heck with the call of the field, just just get rid of just get

rid of that part of the rule. Call what you see on the video, and to me, that fourth and goal call and the way the way it was processed and the way it was adjudicated just showed how messed up this whole thing. So the only thing you said it perfectly. I can't do any better than any of that, So I'm not going to try. But and I'm sorry that I'm in. It's okay. You know, we're cool. Everyone's

enjoying themselves. Uh. The one thing I want to add to this, though, the only part of this I took exception to the only part of it is that nobody went over and tried to ask the other side judge exactly what he saw. I don't even there. There was no discussion, There was no huddle, there was no there was no on field discussion as to Okay, how do we want to call this? They just called it a touchdown and sent it to review. I don't even care if you walk up to him and said, hey, did

you watch Dancing with the Stars last night? I don't care if you walk up and discuss how their kids third grade math test went at the mouth, where at least okay, we discussed it. Now will make the call? This game is getting longer and longer with all these reviews, you're gonna save thirty two seconds by just signaling in a touchdown and throwing a you know, flipping a coin up in the air and being like, well, if somebody saw it, he looked, he put his hands up faster.

I mean, they looked really decisive about that call. I'm guessing he must have seen something. Go over and discuss it with your side judge, then make ruling. Because I'll be honest with you and I don't This is one of the places where I said I did not envy the officials. It was not a clear look. There are a lot of bodies. It's full, it's it was. It

was a tough call, there's no doubt. But to have what appeared to be the better angle where Blakeman was with his side judge as opposed to where the other side judge was, to to just rule it blindly like that just was not good. It wasn't. I just want somebody at the league to acknowledge that this whole call on the field and the and the way it's given and the precedence that it's given in the replay process

is just a completely anequated outdated notion happen. I know it's not going to happen because they don't want to further undercut the authority they've already taken away from the officials by how much goes to replay to begin with. So it's not going to happen. But in in the Mike spoffered like logical common sense world, it is completely anequated.

There's no reason that that call on the field should matter when all these video angles are always not like it was in the nineties, But in they're always going to give you a better look than the guy in the field has in the first place. So to me, it's just completely inane that they they say the call

in the field actually matters anymore. I just it doesn't make sense to Well, Mike, you could shuffle back into that little fantasy land where everything's peaches and cream and it's calls, and we're going to continue to live in the Hey, we'll see what happens on Sunday and hopefully everything works out for the best. All right, Well, I'm gonna go crawl back into my cornera with that, and we're going to call it a wrap on this edition

of Packers unscripted. Be sure to follow all of our coverage of the team on packers dot com, and you can subscribe to us and like us on iTunes and other podcast services. If you're tired of looking at my face on Twitter, he's at west Hot I'm at Mike Spofford at Packers for the team account. Thanks for tuning in, everybody. We'll see you next time.