¶ Putting the Flex Into Flexible Working… Is 9-5 a Thing of the Past?
Hello there and good to have you along once again. I'm Howard Bentham and this is OxTalks, the podcast powered by OxLEP, the local enterprise partnership for Oxfordshire. This county has some truly remarkable leaders and innovators. OxTalks gives us the chance to meet some of these incredible people and discuss current issues affecting business.
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¶ Exploring Flexible Working
In this edition, we'll be exploring flexible working, and asking, are the days of working nine to five coming to an end? Flexible working covers a whole range of working scenarios, including job share to part time, remote or hybrid working, compressed hours, staggered hours, annualised hours, and flexi time. Employees who may benefit from this kind of approach might have caring responsibilities, issues around disability, or perhaps their physical and mental health.
Its aim is to strike a better work life balance. Finding a balance, though, that works for both employer and employee clearly isn't easy. CIPD research shows that 6 percent of employees changed jobs in 2022, specifically due to a lack of flexible options and 12 percent left their profession altogether due to a lack of flexibility within the sector. This represents almost 2 and 4 million workers respectively.
When you consider statistics like that, somehow you can't help hearing the voice of Dolly Parton singing about working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living, barely getting by, it's all taking and no giving, perhaps Dolly had a point. Critics of flexible working, not necessarily of Dolly Parton, however, point out that flexible working can create a fragmented and divided workforce, where some people feel they're not being treated fairly, which can lead to conflict and resentment.
Questions also remain around the effectiveness of remote or hybrid working in terms of productivity. In April this year, the law changed in this country, meaning that employees now have the right to request flexible working practices from day one of their employment. It'll be fascinating to see in the coming months and years the difference this will make to the country's productivity as well as to workers health and wellbeing.
¶ Helen Wright's Journey
Let's explore this further with our guest who has seen the impact of workplace flexibility, or the lack of it, from both sides. Made redundant whilst pregnant, she now heads up an award winning recruitment agency specialising in placing those specifically looking for work that fits around their lives. I'm delighted to welcome to OxTalks, the founder of 923 Jobs, Helen Wright. Helen, great to speak with you, thanks for coming to talk to us.
I'm really fascinated about your light bulb moments in an Oxfordshire children's playground, when you realised that all the mums there, with their kids were talented lawyers, accountants, architects and the like, who were effectively being kept out of work by the fact that there was a lack of flexibility in work, that really resonated with me. Tell us the story.
Well, Howard, I mean, I have to say, first of all, I do know all the words to Dolly Parton's Ninety Five. I won't try them out with you now, but I was going through quite a frustrating period in my life, I suppose. I had been a broadcast journalist, spent about 10 years working for BBC and ITV and then I was pregnant with our first child and I was made redundant. So it's very difficult to get work when you're pregnant and so I was forced into a little bit of a career break, but do you know what?
I'm a positive person and I see that. That was a good thing, and it worked out in the end. But sadly you know, 55, 000 women in the UK are made redundant while pregnant still in 2024. But let me take you back to the playground moment. So, I had been a stay at home mum, we had three children, and I thought, I really want to get back to the workplace. But I was really struggling to find any kind of part time or flexible work that fitted in around the children.
I'd registered with a couple of agencies. I thought, you know what, I don't mind working full time, living in Oxfordshire, I thought I could get into London, but nothing really was coming back to me.
Maybe a couple of full time opportunities that were paying less than the cost of childcare and it was very demoralising because, you know, I'd had a career and I backed myself to actually add value to business and I stood in my local village playground pushing children on swings and I just looked around and I just thought, wow, I'm not alone, she's an accountant, she did PR for banks in the city, she was director of HR, she worked for a big corporate whatever doing
something high and important or whatever and none of us were working and I just thought, wow, we're in the booming Thames Valley, surely there are businesses out there who are looking to try and find talent to help them grow and thrive and I thought, I'm going to try and unite and link these two groups together. So I trotted home, children hanging off my arms, got home and set up nine to three jobs and there we go.
¶ Challenges and Successes in Recruitment
So tell us how that works then as a job agency if you will.
Yeah. So low barrier to entry, Howard, when it comes to recruitment, it's not like being a lawyer and accountant, no exams to pass. Just bought myself a laptop, had a phone, got a notebook. Being a former journalist, it's okay phoning up people and asking things, because I've had to make quite a lot of difficult calls and door knocks, as other journalists will know, knocking, calling someone up and asking them about their murdered relative or whatever.
This was easy, phoning up businesses and just saying, do you want to try and tap into this amazing pool of talent? And so that's what I started doing and slowly grew the business from there as more and more local businesses realised that actually you can find brilliant and experienced candidates in this way and I'm always struck by the number of people who don't realise that there are lawyers and accountants and whatever who want to work part time.
I've spoken to clients and they say, but we're looking for a lawyer for three days a week, but we probably won't find one, will we? And we're like, Yeah, heck yeah, we've got loads! And it's just about opening people's eyes.
And you say opening people's eyes, I guess that's opening the employer's eyes as much as it's opening the potential employee's eyes as well and bringing them together.
Yes, I suppose with the employees, with the candidates, we have grown organically. It's been a massive word of mouth experience, I suppose.
That's unbelievably powerful word of mouth!
Really powerful and talking, going back to the school gates and the playground and that's where word spreads and someone will tell their sister who tells their friends and we say, how did you hear about us when we speak to candidates and a lot of the time it is through that power of toddler groups and coffee mornings and a lot of the time it's women who are, I suppose, it doesn't sound right, but maybe they're just desperate.
They're banging their heads against a brick wall and I don't know, I feel that we're in a generation where for the first time we as, okay, I'm going to get a bit philosophical here, maybe not everyone will agree with me, but I kind of feel that we've been enabled to go to university, our generation, my generation, you know, we're in our forties as women.
My mum didn't, I did and that's opened our eyes and I looked at some stats recently and I think in the 1990s, something like 25 percent of our lawyers were women. Now it's 50 50, and it's pretty much the same in all those professions, it's gone up and we are equal.
But we kind of need other bits of our lives and society and home life to catch up and we speak to more dads now as well, who post pandemic have seen what they've missed out on by going into the office and say, hang on, I want a bit of family life, I want a work life balance and when we talk about a work life balance, it doesn't mean you're giving any less to your work, that's still an important part of our lives, but I think it just makes you better at work because you're happier at home.
¶ Impact of Flexible Working on Businesses
Tell us about the businesses you target then as a recruitment agency, because I guess those businesses need to sort of buy into your ethos and your philosophy, as you've just touched on there about flexible working and not all of them do.
It is a really good point, Howard. The business is about 10 years old, and I kind of think of it pre pandemic and post pandemic because there has been a massive shift pre pandemic, I did talk about this workplace revolution that was happening, very slow, I'd say it's not overnight, gradually. When I started the business, I'd have to sometimes explain what flexible working was to potential clients.
Now the language of work has changed and far from being a kind of gradual revolution, it kind of did happen overnight with the pandemic and more and more organisations are embracing hybrid and flexible working.
But we find we have always worked very well with the Oxford University kind of startups and spin outs and I think that is because they're quite dynamic in their thinking and their newly created roles and so, for example, they might not have had anyone doing their marketing and then they go, do you know what?
We're ready for a marketer, but we don't really want to go from having no one to having someone full time, maybe we'll just ease them in and have someone three days a week and do you know what? Because it's three days a week, we can afford someone who's really good, we can afford that salary. So they actually get really great talent and that's worked really well and it's the same with SMEs and it's the same for the charity sector too.
We find that we can work really, really well and help complement their workforce with some fantastic individuals.
I guess the, as you're talking about marketing, the name 923 is nine to three then, but that's not exclusively the hours people are working.
Well, do you know what? I mean, funnily enough, when you start a business, it is like, Oh gosh, what should I call the business? Before ChatGPT as well. So we had to use our actual brains to try and come up with a name and honestly, the number of conversations I've had around nine to three, some people just come up to me and they go, it's the best name ever, I completely get it, I love it and other people are like, 923, what do you mean?
And other people hate it and do you know what, it started out as being nine to three school hour jobs, really, but it's just broadened out into anything that's flexible. It could be full time, but as long as there is that flex.
Share some stories around candidates or maybe the businesses, some success stories that you've brought about.
Gosh, where do I start, Howard? so, you know, it's just, it's lovely speaking to candidates and we've just taken on a new recruiter just this week actually and we always sort of say the first few weeks of having these conversations with candidates can be quite emotional. I remember we had an office, pre pandemic, and I remember one of our recruiters, the first call she had with a candidate and she came off the phone in tears because it's just so emotional.
These women are just so grateful to be listened to and heard and believed in to some extent, I suppose, you know, that careers aren't over because they've had children and I think that's lovely and then when it comes to businesses, it's just brilliant because we've placed people in part time roles and a couple of years later, they're COO, they're on the board, they're directors. Their careers have thrived and they've been so good, they have been promoted within that organisation.
So we're really adding value to those businesses and I do believe that SMEs, they're the backbone of our economy and it's just a privilege to work with them. It sounds very cheesy and you know, past the sick bucket, but really it is and it's just, I love seeing businesses grow and the different paths they take.
No, I can well believe that, coming from a teaching background as well. Yeah, watching anyone grow into a role is always really fulfilling, isn't it? We'll come back to the here and now in a moment and 923 Jobs and flexible working in a moment. I just want to sort of unpick this broadcast journalist background of yours. This was with the BBC and ITV amongst others, tell us about those times and I just want to try and get the picture of Helen back then, if you like.
It sounds like a dream job, first of all, and then share with us some of the scoops that you had.
Oh gosh, Howard, you'll take me back now, I've bored my children with them, they don't believe I actually had a different type of job. Well, I suppose it was one of those careers that, I'd always wanted to do. I wanted to be a broadcast journalist.
I did a history degree at Durham University and then I lived in China for year and a half and I learned Mandarin there and taught children English and that was a really incredible time actually and then back at home, I thought I need to get a proper job, let's pursue my dream and so I did post grad at Cardiff School of Journalism and then got into radio and took it from there and it was just, it was exciting, it was great. It covered some big stories.
I think one of the last ones I did, this is just aging me now, though, Howard, was the Madeleine McCann disappearance in Portugal, which is very sad. But other stories, I've done sporting stories, and I remember seeing David Beckham training with Sven once, and very exciting, but all sorts of different stories over the years and being out and about, I suppose and I suppose having that background has taught me that you can have great transferable skills.
You know, when I sat down and thought I'm going to be a recruiter, I didn't realise firstly, how hated recruiters were. Oh my gosh, people hate recruiters. It's like...
More so than journalists?
Well then I thought that's okay. People hate journalists too. You know, I've been chased down the street with a baseball bat. That's okay, I can deal with this and you know, the transferable skills that you have, the communication skills and so on and so on. Now I can apply that to other roles and I think that's really, really useful, you know?
As you've touched on, your career came to an abrupt halt, being maid redundant whilst pregnant. It's not that uncommon, is it? You've alluded to the stats. I mean, that must have been a really difficult time though, for you personally and professionally. Someone's telling you that you can't do something and you're clearly very independent minded, very driven human being, aren't you?
I just, I do remember sitting in the newsroom and looking around and it sounds a bit pathetic, but a little tear, I think maybe two or three tears actually just rolled down my cheek because I'd looked around and I thought I'm never going to get back to this and it's something that if you've trained hard to do to get into that kind of profession, you have to do all this work experience, you have to be knocking on doors, you have to do
the hard yards before you're actually allowed out on camera or whatever.
And not earning too much money in the process either. Certainly at the bottom end.
Yeah and I've got amazing memories. I mean, you touched on it just now, but occasionally I'll see myself in the background of some documentary about something or other, because I've been reporting at the Old Bailey, for example and you do think, wow, what a great job and I love, I still love the news, I love watching all the politics and so on. So I've been very lucky to have that.
But it did dawn on me, I can't get back to that and that kind of role, I think, doesn't sit well with having a family. You know, I mentioned the Madame McCann story that, that happened and then it was like, can you get on a flight like tonight or tomorrow, whatever you can't do that when you're the main carer, I suppose and I knew that and then it's not for an old woman, really, frankly, to be on telly.
So, I've made my peace with that, Howard and now I'm thrilled to be running an award winning recruitment agency.
A new chapter is being written for sure. Certainly around the being made redundant whilst pregnant issue. The law in this country has recently changed it in this area, isn't it? Giving pregnant women more rights. Are you already seeing and hearing positive changes in that direction or not?
I'm a bit of a cynic.
I can tell from your face, this is a probably not.
A little bit of a cynic and I remember when, before I set up 923 Jobs, I was, as I said, applying for different jobs and my sister at the time didn't have children and I'd written up my CV and I said, can you just read it through for me, what do you think?
And I had put on there at some point, career break and the fact that I was a mum of three and she'd said, you know, you don't have to put that on your CV and I said, well, no, I know that, but I don't want to work anywhere where I have to hide being a mum. That is a big part of who I am and so that's the path I took and then I didn't get any jobs, but there we go, now I set up the agency and, we're having these conversations all the time around CVs and so on.
In what ways do you think motherhood has changed your approach to business and leadership? It's almost like there's a new you here somewhere, isn't there, from the days of the smoke filled rooms, probably at the ITV or BBC or wherever you were, or out on location to the new you now, are you a different person? Has motherhood changed you?
I think motherhood does, I think parenthood changes everyone actually, because yeah, I mean, you're gonna get me thinking really deep. I do need gin and tonic before I embark on that kind of conversation, Howard, but sometimes we speak to clients who.
are quite open and they're not allowed, we're not allowed to talk, say this, but they would say, we could just do with a mum in this job, someone who's a multitasker, someone who can juggle a lot of things and we'll just get on and get the job done and so perhaps being a parent does bring those skills you know, and I do think regardless of whether you're a parent or not, just life experience is really valuable, actually, and I think that can bring a lot to an organisation.
¶ OxLEP's Role in Supporting Businesses
Let's bring in OxLEPs communications manager, Rob Panting into the conversation. Rob, good to see you. Welcome to OxTalks once again, Rob. Based on OxLEP's experience over the years, how often do we see this business founders potentially spotting an issue or a challenge as Helen has done and creating a solution through a new business site?
Hi Howard, hi Helen. Really great hearing Helen's story just now, absolutely fascinating stuff. Yeah, from an OxLEP perspective, really quite a significant number.
In fact, when you look at our most recent impact report, which looks back at the businesses that we've engaged during 2023 into 2024 in terms of those pre startups that we work with, that accounts for around about a fifth of those businesses that OxLEP supports, it's just short of 50 percent actually of the startups, those businesses that we engage our startups rather.
So, in terms of those people coming to us with business ideas or solutions, it's actually quite a significant proportion of those that we support on a day to day basis. I think probably where we come in, it's the practical support as everyone, we spoke a lot about this on our podcast, people coming to us with an idea, but not necessarily having the, natural business acumen to take the further forward and turning it into an actual business itself.
But in terms of those people who are want to present a solution like Helen has with regards to those looking to get into more flexible working environments, it continues to be quite a high proportion of people that we engage with.
Post COVID, it's probably fair to say there's been a bit of a shift, if you like, towards an employee's market, isn't it? A buyer's market at the moment. How important is it for businesses and a lot of these startups you're talking about to consider that before committing to starting a new business?
I think it is important. I think, you know, when you start your own business, you have the ability to create your own culture. So I'm sure Helen, when you recruit your recruiters that you just mentioned earlier on, the culture or the ability for that individual to buy into the culture that you've set as an organisation is absolutely key.
It's a really good point actually Rob, and that's our number one criteria, so we don't really, hire recruiters. We don't want them necessarily to come with a different type of ethos or maybe bad practices and so it's all about, like you say, keeping that culture, especially because we all work remotely. I mean, that is key and I think understanding that helps us a little bit when we work with clients too.
For the context for people watching and listening, how many recruiters have you got? What sort of size are we talking
Well, pre pandemic, we were 14, but we scaled back to two and now we're up to eight. So, not huge, but we are ambitious to grow, but there we go.
But it's having those shared values that you find this really helpful.
And when we work remotely, so we're based in Surrey, Kent, Oxfordshire, Berkshire, for a while, we had someone in Herefordshire and it's just really important to trust each other, I suppose and we all care about, sounds cheesy, but our cause, we really want to help candidates, we really want to find the right people for our clients.
I think it's also worth mentioning as well, when you say it's an employee's market, I think it's changed. I mean, you've just spoke about how your business has changed post pandemic and obviously I think that is very much the case for pretty much every business that OxLEP engages with, who were operating pre pandemic and post pandemic.
It is very much an employee's market and I think employers have to really take that into consideration in terms of, okay, well, this is the culture that we need to create. If we want to get the best talent, we need to, I don't say compromise, but perhaps we may have operated a certain way five to 10 years ago.
We need to embrace this employee's market, whether that's embracing flexibility more readily, whether it's perhaps embracing technology a little bit more readily than what they did pre pandemic. It's changed a lot.
That is a very good point and I think it takes quite a brave step actually, to try and think about changing your culture. So we would work very easily with organisations that already offer some flex and it might be that it's a part time job, fine. That's great or it might be that everyone works hybrid, for example.
But when we're coming in and organisations have come to us because they're struggling to hire, because everyone wants hybrid and they don't know where to start because they're in the office, we can help with that, but it's not an easy journey. You know, I recognise that. I remember speaking to, This is a very much a fail story, but I was speaking to a firm of accountants and they, I said, what are your problems with recruitment?
And they're like, people are leaving, we're just really struggling to find replacement accountants. I was like, we've got accountants, we can help, what flex do you offer? We don't offer any flex. Full time in the office. Okay, have you thought...? It won't work. Just won't work. I said, well, where are the accountants going who are leaving you? Well, they're going to other firms. Right. Are they offering flex? Yeah, they can all work from home. Right.
So it can work within your environment because these other companies are thriving. Yeah. Would you like to have a go? We can hold your hand through it. No, No, no, no. We failed there, but I thought there are some people who don't want to flex, and that's fine, that's absolutely fine. But if they do want to flex, they can give me a call.
Just picking up on something that Rob said there, how did you go about starting your own business, Helen, those very early days, because you've gone from being a broadcast journalist, a good mum, good parents, that doesn't necessarily make you a great business person, does it? So it's great to have the idea. who was holding your hand, if you like.
I would say anyone can do it. Nowadays, it's easy to set up, I don't know, Facebook, website, whatever you need to do, have a go and lots of people are like, I think 75 percent of the under 25s have got a side hustle, which I find quite exciting and do you know, I went, it might've been an event organised by OxLEP, I can't remember. I'd set it up in 2015 and then 2016 there was like a pitch your business event in Bicester or something and it might, people from OxLEP were definitely there.
and I pitch, I didn't win, didn't win, but...
Definitely wasn't us then in which case!
I was, I'm in touch with two of the other people who were pitching and at that event, I met someone who said, Oh, we've got an incubator programme running in Oxford in a couple of months time, give me a call, you'd be quite good to go on it. Went on that and that sort of was really interesting for me because it was things like your homework for this week is to do a PowerPoint on your whatever, I don't know.
marketing strategy or whatever it was and I thought, I've never done a PowerPoint, this is fun. Literally everything was new and I kind of think that's quite good fun. that kept it all fresh and good cause you know, being in broadcast journalism, I'm just doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, talk. I knew what I was doing in the newsroom, but this was different. So I had a steep learning curve and I'm still learning.
You know, there are great things that OxLEP offer and I've done a course run at Oxford Brookes about helping to grow your business and that's a great thing about business, isn't it? You know, you just keep learning, don't forget to work on your business, not just in it.
Yeah and that, funny, the mentors as well, and people that, they might not even be in the same industry as you, but somebody that you can talk to.
Oh my gosh.
So important.
Yeah. Oh, so important. It's so lonely running a business. Gosh, yeah. It really is important. And it's, hard. There's stuff going on all the time and you've got to do everything, all the time, it's so difficult. But you know what? There are people who love it and they wouldn't change it and I think I'm one of those people.
It sounds very much like running a family.
Yes, maybe.
There's always something going on, isn't there? Rob, any specific programs in place that individuals, startups, whatever can access in the sort of scenario we're talking about here with Helen?
Yeah, quite a number in fact. So at the moment we have a couple of programmes that are due to run through until March next year, specifically for businesses and individuals who are based in West Oxfordshire and Cherwell. So we have a programme called the Spark Programme, which is there to support entrepreneurs, those looking to start up businesses, fascinating stat that you just said about under 25s, which really rings true with regard to that particular programme.
So the Spark programme is there. Also the Accelerator programme, again in West Oxfordshire and Cherwell, specifically to help more established businesses on their growth journey and away from that, sort of the day to day support, I suppose, our Peer Networks programme remains very popular.
I think, like Helen says, having a network of individuals who not only have common challenges or opportunities, but operate in the same space as you, not necessarily the same sector, but the same space in terms of business responsibility and perhaps a desire to move forward with the business that continues to be very, very popular.
Probably should mention the Women in Business programme that we run as well, which is an ongoing networking session which has got several dozen women in business, leaders in particular coming together and again, sort of sharing best practice, sharing challenge.
So as Helen says, and it's not just OxLEP, but there's lots of support out there, a little bit of homework online to find out which business support options are right for you and I think people are genuinely surprised as to what support is available.
You wanted to pick up on that about the women in business?
Oh, it's actually just before that point, just the peer to peer network and just how important that is and just being able to get things off your chest, I suppose, to some extent, in a trusted environment and not really even in the same sector and sometimes we find that we can help clients finding, I don't know, say they want a digital marketer, they don't actually need someone with the expertise in their sector because they've got that in house.
They just want someone to come in who's got the fresh ideas, who can do that and sometimes having a fresh pair of eyes on things, is really valuable and you can just give yourself a new boost, a new lease of life in that area of business.
I do think that the ability to engage with people from different sectors is massively important because you get a different viewpoint and you come up with ideas quite often off the back of it as to, okay, this is a different way of moving forward with a particular challenge or opportunity that I have and certainly the feedback that we get is that the peer network type events are really important to help businesses, not to financially grow necessarily,
but to grow, to stand on their own two feet with new ideas and new potential. So yeah, that's definitely the feedback we get.
I'm intrigued as to what your vision was when you started and sort of, if you like, the why?
Taking over the world Howard, obviously!
Was it world domination and possibly a pop at the US presidential election in the future? Or is it, we needed a bit of pin money for to buy family holidays or whatever?
It was a former, definitely more the former, yeah and it continues to be expansion, if not global expansion, although I've got a great mentor and he's in London and he's in recruitment and he, whenever I go and have a coffee with him, I'm like going, right, I'm going to open a Hong Kong office and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and I get a bit carried away because maybe all entrepreneurs are the same, but it's tangible and I do
remember sort of setting this up and I wonder whether other people feel like this, but you have these goals in your head and you think, when I get there, oh my gosh, I'm going to have a bottle of champagne and I'm going to celebrate, it's going to be amazing and then you kind of get there and you're like, yeah, actually my goal has changed and it's the next step and it's the next step. So at the moment is geographical expansion within the UK, is the next thing, watch 2025, there you go.
Geographical expansion, okay. We'll definitely keep an eye on that one. You're an award winner now, which is a great, a number of accolades. Would you describe yourself as a social entrepreneur, actually somebody who's influencing genuine change?
Oh, Howard, that is another deeper, meaningful question. Oh my gosh.
That's another gin and tonic.
Thank you.
you're not driving home.
I would say that this space has been very active, the flexible working space for, since I set up so about 10 years, similar sorts of time to me, there were people who I would say have really garnered genuine massive change. Jolie Brearley set up Pregnant and Screwed Charity and the White House set up Flex Appeal, they're very in the public eye within this space, and.
I always joke with the 923 Jobs team that we're sort of hunched over our laptops on our phones, doing the nitty gritty of actually finding the jobs and getting people into these flexible jobs and then there are some cooler people who are the face, the cool face of it all and I think we need people to bang the drum.
So I think they're amazing and it is an exciting space to be involved in, because I do think post pandemic, everyone's talking about flexible working and it's not just about mums, it's not just about dads, it's about everyone.
Helen and Rob, thank you both for the moment, we'll chat again shortly. You're listening to OxTalks, the podcast powered by the Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership. Please get in touch with the team at OxLEP to comment on what you've been hearing. You can find us on social media, we're on X @OxfordshireLEP, or via LinkedIn, search for Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership.
Perhaps you run a company or organisation that's looking for some specific help, or simply need a steer to the most appropriate business advice available. Why not try the OxLEP Business Support Tool? OxLEP Business Support Tool: OxLEP's Business Support Tool is here to help your company. Whether you're just starting out, growing, or ready to take on a new business challenge.
If you're looking for the latest advice and support, complete our business support tool today and get set to receive a bespoke action plan for your organisation. Head to OxLEPbusiness. co. uk to find out more. Let's speak more with Rob Panting from OxLEP and Helen Wright from 923 Jobs from Oxfordshire.
¶ Personal Stories of Flexible Working
Rob, you're a new dad and congratulations on that. Four day week, you work with OxLEP, you've adopted this sort of flexible working approach after a trial period.
Still remain to trial through to March.
And Helen, you're, shall we say, something of a...
Living the dream, Howard,
I was going to go flexible working champion, but if you want to call it living the dream, I'm more than happy with that. Rob, tell us how your four day week has helped you find a better work life balance, give us some sort of tangible examples, if you would.
Yeah, I mean, the obvious thing to say is being a new dad, 18 months ago my son was born and it's given me more time and more opportunity to enjoy being a dad, an opportunity that might not have occurred in other working environments. So that is a strong driver, I guess, in terms of what I gained from a four day week.
I do think that the introduction of the four day week, from a work life balance perspective, it helps to create division, positive division, obviously, in terms of what is work and what is personal time, because I think as an organisation, OxLEP, we have adopted this trial, for around about the same period of time that my son came around through to now.
So, from my perspective, it's created a clear gap between, okay, this is work time and this is personal time, and that has driven me personally I feel, to be much more, I know it's very easy to use the word productive, but I am very much geared towards being productive in a workspace because I know that I've got some good personal time around the corner and actually it's created, in my opinion, a much sort of healthier and dare I say, more mindful person, I think,
compared to perhaps, where I was 10, 15 years ago, even longer than that in a workspace where it was very much geared towards, this is my job, I mean work should come first in a lot of things, but family should come first, you know, in a lot of things too, but I think probably, you know, as you're emerging in your career, you're willing, like you described earlier Helen, in terms of your capability of jumping on a plane to go out to a job without any ramifications.
But I do think that the four day week in this instance, but flexible working arrangements in general do allow you to create that space that you might want for your family or indeed any other interests that you have.
How'd you get your working day to fit around your family, Helen?
Oh, I think that evolves, doesn't it, with as the children grow and so on.
But I'm interested in Rob, and how OxLEP have adopted the four day week, because that's four days on full time pay, which, I mean, the UK had the world's biggest trial of this, and loads of companies took part, and the outstanding result was that productivity either remained the same or increased and everyone's really surprised by that, and I'm a massive fan of flexible working and I was surprised, and I've been speaking to different organisations and I've spoken to
people from OxLEP in the past about this. How is that? How can that be? And Rob, I'd be interested to see what you say, but A, you've spoken that your more positive mentally about your job, so I suppose you're more engaged in your job when you're there doing it and also people have said they just work smarter.
You know, we've all sat in meetings where actually the first 15 minutes we're just yapping and we're not getting anything done, but actually we've got all this amazing technology and everything, we can work smarter. We can get more done. Well, why are we still doing nine to five Monday to Friday? That's what we were doing a hundred years ago, come on guys!
Yeah.
Well, rewind further back than that, it was a six day week, wasn't it? And then when it went to five, shock horror, the world didn't end did it?
It's time, isn't it, to change. So, I mean, I'm really lucky. I mean, that was a founding sort of reason for why I founded this business to fit in around my children and so occasionally, all entrepreneurs will know this, your business is like a baby to you. So occasionally I've had to have my sister say, Helen, Helen, stop, remember why you're doing this, you can go to the nativity, you can switch the laptop, you can do this and that's important and that's how I run the business now.
So the team all work flexibly. They all work part time because it's really important, you know, outside of work, it's key important time.
What about your other halves, if I may ask? What about you, Helen? Do they have the luxury of, working flexibly?
So, well, my husband is a, he's a neurosurgeon and so he is often on call and has been over the years.
So I suppose when the children were young, I remember that the longest time was 21 days when he didn't see the children because he'd just be working nights and days and weekends and just solid, and if he, when he did come home and they were in bed, it's easier now and actually post pandemic, interestingly, I've found doctors are able to have more remote meetings where they all dial in, which I mean, personally, I mean, I think it's a good thing because it means that Dan can
be at home sometimes when previously he wouldn't be, but also they can collaborate with other hospitals perhaps and it's easy to share slides of, I don't know what they had, I do pay attention to what he does, but I think x rays or something and they can all look at it, but they can also bring in expertise from even around the world quite easily.
So even brain surgery can be done working from home, what about your other half, Rob, and flexible working? Because that really does impact. I mean, just hearing Helen's story there about her husband, 21 days without seeing the kids because of the work schedule, what about your situation?
So my wife works in the hospitality industry. I guess you can't really sort of manage when an individual is getting married, for example, or if there's a particular event happening and quite often those are during, I guess what we would typically class as unsociable hours, weekends, evenings, et cetera. My wife's been able to take advantage of a flexible working request.
So when she returned from a maternity leave, she changed to a part time contract, which the company agreed to and that's in the hospitality industry, which I guess is probably an industry which, you know, at arm's length, you would think, okay, maybe that's an organisation that may, don't say struggle to adapt, but they very much need their people in a space at one particular time.
You can't serve a coffee remotely, can you, you know.
Exactly. But thankfully, you know, that's worked to our advantage and the impact on us as a family is a positive one because it allows us to manage nursery time really well.
It allows us to, my son goes to a great nursery, but it means that we can afford not to send him to nursery five days a week, which to be honest, typically, if the organisation that I've worked at several years ago, or organisations I've worked at several years ago, we would have been five days a week in the office, my wife would have been three, four, five days a week in a location. It's five days at nursery or you're relying on grandparents for support and the cost of childcare as well.
It's just such an area that, I mean, you can spend a whole OxTalks talking about this and the impact it has on families, but yeah, so many people go to work purely to pay for the cost childcare.
We speak to candidates who can't afford to go to work because they wouldn't get paid enoenough to cover the childcare costs, you know, and it's ridiculous, and talking about your example there with your other half and hospitality, we would sometimes say, have organisations thought about job share, because then you can retain these candidates who have got all that experience and let's face it, if you've got younger people coming in, that experience is really valuable to an organisation.
In fact, recently I've been speaking to a candidate looking to come back from a short career break because she's had her first child and she was in events and it's very much the same sort of situation where it's a lot of weekends, it's quite relentless, I think, especially building up to a big event and happily we have a client who just got in touch. She said, we're looking for someone one day a week. So she's delighted and that could be a good thing for both parties.
¶ Future of Flexible Working
Helen, critics of flexible working, say it can create a fragmented and potentially divided workforce. I'm just intrigued to get your thoughts on this because the fact that some roles offer full flexibility, if you like and others just due to their nature, do not even sort of looking at your husband's work there and this can even be within the same organisation or company. It can appear that, if you like, some employees are being treated differently.
That can then lead to conflict and resentment in the workplace. Do you find this and do you accept that as a fair criticism?
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point and I remember speaking to an organisation and they said that they were wanting to introduce flexible working with some remote working, but they had a team.
I think they were the IT team who couldn't work remotely because the servers were in a certain building and so they felt that it wouldn't work very well when people are kind of having a half day from home or something, walking past this team who weren't able to leave and I get that and I always say every single business is different. I mean, Rob, you'll know the stats. I think in Oxfordshire, what are there? 50, 000 businesses in Oxfordshire?
Yeah.
50, 000. They're all different. We shouldn't treat them all with the same. It shouldn't be a one size fits all and that's the beauty about flexible working, you can really make it work for your business and that is the key point. So I'm a big fan of flexible working, but if it doesn't work for your business, then there's no point, it won't work at all.
it has to work for your business and I think going back to one of Rob's points earlier about the fact that OxLEP have been trialing the four day week, I always say there's no harm in trialing something. Communication, speak to your team, see what the mood is there, see if it works and if it's trial, you can always go back, but you never know, you might uncover this most amazing way of working.
There's also a school of thoughts that argues that having children is a choice and that any specific help that parents receive is perceived as not being fair, if you like, by those who choose not to have children. Is that a fair criticism?
It's a criticism that is a little bit tedious, in my opinion, if I can say that. I mean, before I had children, I was kind of, I don't really want to have children, I'm just focused on my career, you know, as a lot of young people are. So I can vaguely remember those times.
I think it is a choice, but at the end of the day, we've all got parents, I suppose and I mean, I do feel that our society has come on to the point where actually the wife, much to my husband's disappointment, isn't there at home with slippers and a pipe, you know, with dinner on the table or whatever. We've changed and I do think that's for the better, but interesting times, really.
I'd probably throw in there as well, that the greater flexibility probably sits with me in terms of my working arrangement versus my wife, who probably doesn't have as much flexibility because she works in weddings and events.
So sort of touching on the question slightly, Howard, the working arrangements within families and individuals probably in the last 10, 15 years has really changed quite dramatically from the sort of traditional working arrangements in families, which, you know, we would have all had, growing up 20, 30, 40 years ago, you know, I think it's, one of those which has evolved positively and the ability to introduce flexibility in the workplace that has a massive impact on
people's home life and outlook, I think.
I mean, I think it's really important that dads like you, Rob, would step up and say, I want to embrace flexible working. I've spoken to dads over the years and I remember one great, really great candidate, actually, and his wife happened to have the big job. So they decided that he would be the one to work part time and take most of the childcare and he said, I can't get a part time job. Going to interviews and people are saying, but you're a man, why do you want to work part time?
And he's sort of tearing his hair out. But I think we need to kind of normalise this and that's where I think campaigns around paternity leave, shared parental leave, this is all really positive and you know, we spoke to a fantastic candidate just a couple of months ago. She says, I don't have children, but I love sailing and I love my life outside of work. I do a great job when I'm at work, but actually I want a better work life balance and so that was her driving force, you know.
Let me throw this in, or I don't want to sound like the Daily Mail here, but is flexible working actually a slacker's charter? Just there's very little hard evidence that productivity is as good when people are either working from home or with different working hours, under a flexible working plan compared to the employee that's in the office all the time.
There's lots of evidence, Howard, actually. I love this
Think you can look for evidence on both sides.
But this is a great stat, so I always reel this out. So you've probably heard it before and it is a little bit old now, but if you've got a worker in an office, nine to five, regular job, office job, of those eight hours, how many hours are they actually doing their job that they're being paid to do? Give me a guess.
Five.
You think five, Howard, you think Rob?
I'll go typical, slightly lower, four hours, fifty nine minutes.
Okay, it's actually two hours fifty five. So for the other five hours, they are going to the loo, going for coffee, chatting in the kitchen, making a cup of tea, scrolling through some social media, doing some shopping and the stats show that if you're working remotely, or even if you're working in the office but you're working flexibly, you are more engaged. I think you're a third more engaged.
So productivity therefore would go up, but I always go back to the point, if you've got a team who doesn't believe in it, then it's not going to work for your business. But if you can just let go and embrace it, trust me, you'll see the huge benefits.
I remember, so, I was very excited when, 923 Jobs graduated to the status of having an office, because we started at my kitchen table, then we had an office, loved that office, oh my gosh, you can imagine and we were all, the whole team, we all happened to be women. At Christmas time, we'd have the Christmas tree, we'd get the decorations, potpourri, I had framed photos of everyone around, it was lovely, loved it. Pandemic came and the office closed for obvious reasons.
But when people were in the office, I do remember thinking, they're not working, they're talking, they're having a nice time and now everyone works remotely and I don't have those thoughts and I can see on the software that we use that people are doing what they say they're doing and we have our regular meetings and they're being just as efficient, if not more efficient and anecdotally, you do hear that people kind of want to prove that they're working, they kind of
overwork when they're working flexibly. I will get off my soapbox now, but...
I guess just a follow up as well on, on Helen's point. I do think that the overriding factor is a company's willingness to embrace a flexible working arrangement and to be fair, you know, OxLEP, we operate the four day week as mentioned, and we also work from home. So we're a remote business. So we do still maintain an office space, an office environment and there are times when actually I feel I need that one to one engagement or one to many engagement with.
with colleagues, that's something that I've missed, I think it's to create that environment.
Absolutely. Yeah.
But I do think that ultimately is the company culture that will make a flexible working arrangement a success or not a success. If you're going into it with the views that it's not going to work, the chances are that it's not going to work.
I mean, I've spoken to really large organisations about this in the past when they've been struggling. I think especially, I think it's a sexist thing to say, but often women kind of get stuck at a certain level within an organisation and so again, anecdotally, they don't really want to be promoted beyond that because that would impact their work life balance and all the other juggling things they have to do and organisations have said to us, well how can we remove that blockage, I suppose.
But again, it comes down to the individual organisations and then with these larger organisations, big corporates, they would say, well, actually flexible working would work within that team, they love it there, but not in this team over here because, I don't know, Derek has very much against it. Do you know what I mean? And I think we are in interesting times, you know, workplaces are evolving, they're changing and that's to be embraced.
Do you think flexible working is here to stay? It's the end for the nine to five?
Yes. Yes, of course. Didn't even pause for breath, Howard. Of course I do, yes. I think the appetite is there.
and I think that's because it's not just about moms, it's not just about dads, it's just about everyone realising that there is more outside of work and as I said, the younger people are actually looking for that way of working too and for years, there's been the chat around expensive housing in London, so moving jobs further away from London, people might say, I go to London once a week, that's doable. But anyway, we can go around in circles on this, but I do think it's here.
I think some of the larger organisations are pulling people back to the office for sure.
But part of me thinks that's because they have big leases or they actually own the offices and so they do have that financial incentive and then some groups, for example, legal firms or accountants, they would say, we need to teach the trainees as they come through and there is an element of that and I would always say, try out different things, try out different ways of doing things because you never know what might be possible.
Maybe as a society, is there more that could be done, either from the government down, legislation, whatever it might be, to enable better flexible working.
I think with flexible working, I think often it's people leading by example. I mean, I think we'll all remember the sort of days where, you know, jacket on the back of the office chair, who can burn the candle the latest and that kind of thing, that bravado I suppose and I kind of think it doesn't really make you more productive, you know, and I've been in newsrooms where actually people work long, but actually two hours during the day, they were down the pub, you know what I mean?
Those were the days. So I think our perception of things has changed and I think graduates now coming through, I think their way of looking at things has changed too. I don't know, Rob, what are you seeing?
Well, I was just going to add, obviously, I think it was in March this year. The law was changed. So it is now as an employee, you have the statutory...
Right to request flexible working.
From day one. So from that perspective, as an employee, you are supported by law to approach your employer to create a flexible working arrangement. So from that perspective, I guess it's the employers that should be catching up on how they embrace flexible working and I and I think, ultimately a business does have to look at their bottom line as well, they need to ensure that they're profitable, they're able to keep people in jobs.
that, there is no business. There are no jobs. You know, that is the priority as far as I'm concerned.
Exactly and sometimes I suppose, it's important that it doesn't tilt too far in the other direction, because obviously if you create ultimate flexible working, there's, I guess, there might be the opportunity that the business can't perform to the ability that it wants to.
I like that though, Rob, ultimate flexible working. I might sort of pinch that, that's amazing. What does it mean? I mean, I've spoken to organisations who have offered unlimited annual leave, is that the ultimate flexible working? Do you know what happens, Howard, with people who, companies that do that? They don't take as much leave cause they don't need it, whereas if you've got 25 days on your leave, it's like, Oh, I've still got two days left, I'm going to take those days.
Whereas if it's unlimited, you just kind of take what you need, as long as your job's done. Is that utopia? Is that what we'd all love? I don't know. Will it work or will there always be a few people who spoil it.
Yeah. I mean, I think ultimately, so long as a business is successful, that's probably what they're looking for aren't they? They need to be profitable, they need to keep people in work, they need to meet their objectives and that's ultimately what they're looking for and who knows, I think if a business can embrace flexibility properly, then, that ultimately is a good position, I think to be in.
And I think not to be scared of it and to use it as a tool for good, you know, not to think, Oh gosh, we've got a flexible working request just to go, actually, we're going to be on the front foot with this, and we're going to see the positives that flexible working can bring.
¶ Conclusion and Farewell
Yeah.
Let's finally metaphorically head back to that Oxfordshire playground with those super qualified and experienced mums pushing their kids on the swings, who may be listening to our conversation and enjoying OxTalks, what's your message to them and others that feel they may want to dip their toe back into the world of work.
I would welcome them to contact 923 Jobs and one of us would be delighted to have a chat. I think candidates at that stage in their life, often they're lacking in confidence and sometimes just the step of putting a CV together, they can remember their old selves and they can remember all their achievements and that in itself is a really positive step and I think if you're in a position to hire.
I would say, have a think about how you're structuring your business and make sure you're hiring candidates because you need that role filled, not just because you're replacing someone who's left, for example, what's the best thing for your business and go for it, you know, it's exciting times.
A huge thank you to Helen Wright from 923 Jobs in Oxfordshire, thanks also to OxLEPs Rob Panting too and thank you for listening to OxTalks. This is the last OxTalks in the current series, but we will be back in 2025 with more great guests and fascinating conversations. Meanwhile, why not enjoy some of the previous editions of OxTalks, available from where you normally get your podcasts.
Let me point you towards an earlier episode featuring Grae Laws, Managing Director of Beyond Touch and Guy Gadney, CEO of charisma AI with some top tips for using AI in your business.
There's Amit Dhaliwal, Chief Executive at Walfinch and his sister Kam Gill, managing director at Walfinch Oxfordshire, discussing the key challenges facing the care sector whilst finding the right talent to support future growth and check out my conversation with Melanie Tattersall from Darcica Logistics with some practical steps to growing a sustainable business.
Every episode is well worth a listen, please spread the word or tell your friends or colleagues about us and if you feel so inclined, leave us a review. You can share your thoughts and suggestions on our social channels and you can email your ideas for inclusion in future editions too, the address is on the podcast description. Business support in Oxfordshire is very close at hand. OxLEP is at your service. The OxLEP Business support Tool can signpost you to expert help in a matter of minutes.
Why not take a look? Find it on our website, Oxfordshirelep. com. But for now, from the whole OxLEP team, and from me, Howard Bentham, it's goodbye.