Oxfordshire on the Global Technology Stage

Howard Bentham - 0:05 Hello there and welcome to episode four of OxTalks. This is a brand new podcast series powered by OxLEP, the local enterprise partnership for Oxfordshire. Throughout this series, we're giving you insight into the great work that OxLEP does, how OxLEP helps companies in the county and beyond, as well as taking a look at the positive impact on the wider community. I'm Howard Bentham and joining me on OxTalks are some key characters in the county. We learn how they are shaping and driving business locally. They are also really keen to stress the critical support that is available from OxLEP and how it could be crucial in helping your company or organisation prosper. Although we are concentrating on Oxfordshire's businesses and issues in this series, you may well be listening to us elsewhere, perhaps in another part of the UK. Many of the difficulties we experience here will be very similar to the ones that you're facing where you are, I'm sure, so please do share your thoughts, stories and observations with us, plus crucially the solutions to the problems that you've found. Head to our social media where we'll pick up your comments and questions in forthcoming podcasts. It'll be good to hear from you. We are @OxfordshireLEP on Twitter and Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership on LinkedIn. 1:22 In this edition, our focus is Oxfordshire on the global technology stage. Oxfordshire is home to some of the world's best and most innovative technologies, helping to address many of the planet's most pressing issues, most recently demonstrated via the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine. In this podcast, leaders at the forefront of Oxfordshire's world-renowned innovation ecosystem discuss why investment into sectors championing transformative technologies is critical for everyone's future, not just people in Oxfordshire or the UK, but worldwide and following on from COP26, what role has Oxfordshire to play in helping create a cleaner future for everyone? I'm delighted to welcome to OxTalks the Chief Technology Officer and Director of Strategy, Communications and Business Development for the UK Atomic Energy Authority, based at the Culham Science Centre, Tim Bestwick. Tim, welcome. As is the OxTalks way, we like to get to know, I guess, a little bit about your background before we get talking about the here and now. How long have you been in Oxford? Tim Bestwick - 2:29 Howard, long enough that I haven't added it up, but a long time. My first proper job, I worked for a couple of years in IBM in the US and immediately following that, I came back to work in Oxford and I more or less haven't left the region ever since. Howard Bentham - 2:45 What were those two years like in research in the States? Did what you experienced there colour who you are here? Tim Bestwick - 2:51 For sure. I really think that going to work in a different cultural environment is a really important part of discovering who you are and the way you think about your own background and for me, working in the US was hugely important in trying to understand that. But I also encountered a really dynamic R&D environment and that was really important, I think, in forming the way I've thought about research and technology and innovation ever since. Howard Bentham - 3:18 What is it about science then that inspired you to follow a career in this sphere? Tim Bestwick - 3:23 I don't think I've ever rationalised it, but I can tell you that ever since I can remember, I've been fascinated by big science and later on, I've been fascinated about how big science inspires innovation. So big science are those really big experiments, you know, be they particle physics at CERN or some of the experiments we see more locally here at Harwell and they really involve huge numbers of people at the very edge of what's possible and the discoveries in science and the way in which they generate ideas and knowledge and innovation that then goes on to have a practical effect on us. I've always just found compelling as a subject. Howard Bentham - 4:01 I think you, like me, are a child of the 70s and 80s when nuclear energy had a very negative press, fears of nuclear war, many protests against the industry because of the waste that it generated. Why did you want to focus specifically on fusion power in your career? Tim Bestwick - 4:18 Well, I've more recently come to fusion. I've been working for UK, AEA and Fusion for about four years now and fusion is not what we normally think of as nuclear energy. If I could just unpick the difference. Normally, when we talk about nuclear power, and certainly historic, talked about fission. Fission is the process by which heavy atoms, when they're split, heavy atoms like uranium, release large amounts of energy and that's the process that powers the nuclear power stations that provide some of our electricity today. Fusion is a different physical process. Fusion, unlike fission, involves taking very light atoms and combining them together to make a heavy one, typically hydrogen. So it's a very different process. It's the other end of the atomic scale and we haven't yet got it going as a practical energy source. It's still in the research and development phase. So it's a different way of producing power and we think it could be a really important part of our future low carbon energy power mixture. Howard Bentham - 5:20 Can you give us a simple sort of layperson's understanding of what fusion is that we could sort of take away and put in our pocket? Tim Bestwick - 5:29 So imagine you had a little molecule of hydrogen floating around, and you split it up so that you had the centre of the hydrogen atom, the nucleus, floating around in a gas. If you made that really, really, really hot, in the case of what we're doing at Cullum at UKAA, over 100 million degrees, it gets so energetic that it combines with other nuclei of hydrogen, the centre of the hydrogen atom, and forms a heavier one, helium and in doing that, it releases energy. So you take hydrogen plus hydrogen and you make helium, but it produces energy and that is potentially a really exciting clean energy source. Now, the way I've described it sounds awfully academic. You think, how could that possibly be relevant to me? The answer is, it's actually fusion energy that keeps you alive at the moment, because all the energy from the sun, which powers our world, actually is fusion energy. 6:25 More than that, actually all the heavier atoms in your body were made in a star by a fusion process. So you are in fact recycled stardust. You probably knew that already. But you're recycled stardust and you're only kept alive by fusion energy from the sun. So it really is, in some ways, you could think of this as just trying to copy the great energy sources of nature. But of course, we're trying to harness it on Earth and confine it and contain it on earth. We can't do it in the sun with its huge magnetic fields, huge gravity and huge size. So we need to do it in a power station on earth and that's become the challenge. So that's what we're working on. Howard Bentham - 7:01 If you crack that challenge, what will that mean in terms of perfecting fusion? What would it mean for the world? Tim Bestwick - 7:07 So there are two great challenges in our energy supply at the moment that you and everybody else will have noticed. One of them is that we have to decarbonise it. We can no longer power our world by burning fossil fuels because it's just unsustainable. We now all practically on a daily basis see the evidence of climate change and that's being driven by carbon in the atmosphere. So one driving force is that we have to decarbonise our energy. The second driving force is around energy security. We need to produce energy in a way where we're not dependent on other places in a way that we'd rather not be. We've seen how that plays out in our world. So those two forces are driving us to look at new forms of energy and the UK is incredibly fortunate because we have access to amazing resources of wind energy. So the UK is building wind energy farms out in the North Sea in particular, which are a tremendous asset. But of course, there are some times when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine and we still need to keep the lights on and so for moments like that, we need what's sometimes called baseload energy, energy that's just on all the time that you can rely on, and fusion energy is a great candidate for that. So hopefully we're replacing in the future, our dependence on burning gas, which is where most of the UK's energy electricity comes from at the moment and oil and coal. Howard Bentham - 8:29 How green is this technology? What are the great attributes that make fusion such an effective low-carbon source? Tim Bestwick - 8:37 So it doesn't produce carbon. It's not a combustion process. So I suppose I could answer that by saying the reason we're interested in it is it is green. It's a low-carbon energy source. It does produce some radioactive products because that's the nature of the fusion process, but it doesn't produce waste on the scale of long-lasting fission waste that you referred to earlier. So it's a different category of waste. So we believe it is an environmentally sustainable part of our future energy mix, for sure. But first, we have to get it going and that's the current challenge. The current challenge is to take it from lab experiments to a point where we can actually power our world and keep our lights on with it and that's what we're working on. Howard Bentham - 9:20 And the safety? How safe is it? Tim Bestwick - 9:22 Well, it's got some attributes that make it very appealing from a safety perspective. There are just a couple I'd pick out. One is that it's a reaction that, as I've alluded to, it's really, really difficult to make this reaction work. So if anything goes wrong, it just doesn't happen. I mean, the default state is it stops. So it's not a reaction that can run away. The second thing about safety is that when you, in the future, when we have fusion power plants, they will have maybe a few seconds of fuel within the power plant. So the most that can happen is it can burn up a few seconds of fuel, unlike other forms of energy where there's a lot of fuel in the power plant that gives you the potential for huge energy release. Fission, fusion isn't like that. Howard Bentham - 10:05 That's a great school lesson. He's just given us I think we've all got our heads around that brilliantly. So let's look at Oxfordshire then is Oxfordshire genuinely at the global centre of research into fusion? Tim Bestwick - 10:15 Yes. What's the next question? Howard Bentham - 10:16 Tell us more. Tim Bestwick - 10:18 So Oxfordshire is home to UK AA's facility at Cullum and since the early 80s, Cullum has been home to JET, the Joint European Taurus, a major European collaboration in fusion and it's a device called a tokamak, which means it's like a giant doughnut-shaped machine. It holds this extremely hot plasma of hydrogen gases in a magnetic field, heats them to incredibly high temperatures, 100 million degrees, and can inject in the forms of hydrogen that really cause fusion to happen and as such, it's been an extraordinary facility that's led the global hunt for fusion, for now, many decades because it first started doing experiments in the early 80s. So it's an old machine now. The scale of JET and its significance have really meant that that's been a landmark on the global quest for fusion. It's meant that over many years we've developed all kinds of expertise here and so I think really, largely thanks to JET, we and Cullum, a small village in southern Oxfordshire, is very firmly on the map in the global quest for fusion. Howard Bentham - 11:29 That's incredible. Tell us more about UK AEA and First Light Fusion's agreement for, it's a design and construction of a new purpose-built facility. What's it called? The First Light Machine 4? Tim Bestwick - 11:41 Yes, so Culham is a campus outside the village of Culham, which has been home to JET and many other science facilities that UK AEA has been operating over the years in the quest for fusion. More recently, we have entered into agreements with companies to build their experimental facilities there. So the first of those companies was General Fusion and the construction of that is now underway. I went to see how it was getting on this morning, actually, when I walked around site and I found I couldn't get there anymore because the builders had put up hoardings and they're busy digging away to start the construction. So we've got General Fusion underway and more recently we've signed agreements with First like Fusion, as you just mentioned, and in the last few days, Tokamak Energy, both to build their experimental facilities at Culham. Now each of these is a slightly different take on Fusion. It's a slightly different technical approach. 12:31 They're all really interesting. They're all really interesting companies and I think having that diversity of approach and, in particular, the intensity of having all those companies working together with UK AEA is a really great thing because, obviously, there's a competitive element to Fusion. Companies want to be their first and they want their technique to win. But actually there's a huge amount of pre-competitive collaboration to be had. We're all really trying to address a huge prize and we all understand that there's a lot of collaboration to be done on the way. So I think it's extraordinary and great that First Light and Tokamak Energy and General Fusion and UK AEA are collaborating and we're all doing it at the column campus. And I very much hope and it's our intent that more of that will happen. Howard Bentham - 13:14 Just following that on, how close are you to perfecting fusion? Anecdotally, it appears scientists say we're always about a decade away from this becoming our everyday, but they've been saying that for quite a few decades now. Tim Bestwick - 13:25 It's a long haul and it's something that is not about to happen in the next year or two. I'm gonna refrain from putting a date on it because you know, that's just, you know, we'll just be my view. But we're still some way away from putting fusion power on the grid. These are new major sources of energy is a really big complex challenge and it's worth adding that fusion is not just one technical challenge. It's a whole set of them. You know, we talk about the challenge of fusion. Actually, what we should really say is the set of challenges of fusion because there are lots of different aspects, from materials to control to all kinds of other technical aspects that we have to get right. So we're way off. I'm not gonna put a date on it, but it's something that we think the prize is so huge and the challenges of powering our world so substantial that we think it's really worth the journey. Howard Bentham - 14:15 I mean there are some obvious challenges aren't there that the building an industry, the infrastructure for it needs to be sort of regulation I guess as well, the talent we can talk about that later. Diversity of ideas, how does that pose a problem for you? What does that mean essentially? Tim Bestwick - 14:32 I do think diversity of ideas in a research topic means you don't just want to plow your own furrow and you know, oblivious of what else is going on, you really need to bounce ideas of other people and really work with the best and brightest to actually solve what are really some very substantial technical challenges and really, history shows that to solve substantial technical challenges, you need people free-thinking, doing exploration, getting ideas off each other, and the best possible talent engaged in that. So we need the very best people to be engaged in the challenge and the quest for fusion, and that means engaging a diversity of people of all backgrounds in that quest. Howard Bentham - 15:13 And you're going to need money, obviously. How hard is it to get private investment in this area of research? Investors naturally will want to see a return fairly quickly, some investors, but this is a long-term scenario, as you've already alluded to. Tim Bestwick - 15:27 Indeed it is. You're exactly right with your analysis. It's a long-term scenario. It's probably longer term than many investors feel comfortable with. But on the other hand, the prize of developing a new energy source for the world is huge, absolutely huge. So it appeals to investors who are attracted to that kind of space, you know, a very risky challenge over a long timeline, but with an enormous potential payback. So the investment, the private sector investment in fusion is a fascinating topic. Until about 18 months, two years ago, the fusion industry around the world had raised a couple of billion dollars ever and we were involved in a report a survey that looked at that number and as soon as that report was out and in the months that followed it the industry raised another couple of billion dollars, doubling the amount so the amount that's gone into private sector fusion currently worldwide is probably order of five billion dollars. But the key thing is it's been in the last few years accelerating very quickly and I think that shows this investor appetite for that. I obviously can't predict the future I can't predict how investors will respond to that, but there are certainly some investors for whom working on something That's so significant with such huge opportunity is appealing. Howard Bentham - 16:45 Let's bring into the conversation Sebastian Johnson from OxLEP who's head of innovation and inward investment He works alongside the government, our local partners to develop an internationalization Strategy and delivery plan for Oxfordshire promoting the world-class innovation assets and skills available in the county, Sebastian welcome. Let's look at investment and funding for research first Tell us about some of the funding that OxLEP has secured with the Department for International Trade is a real success story around here. Sebastian Johnson - 17:13 Yeah, and Tim's outlined some if we look at fusion as the starting base, you know general fusion from Canada have chosen to come to Oxfordshire recognising the strength of the fusion cluster here and that the expertise and indeed the enabling technologies and the supply chain around that, which is really, really important and fantastic and governments work with us and we've worked closely with Department for International Trade, recently reshuffled into Department for Trade and Business, Business and Trade, I think and we've worked closely with them to identify where are these, what are called high potential opportunities? Where does Oxfordshire have a lead, a truly global lead in technologies where there could be greater international investment? And Fusion was one of them. 17:53 We've worked with government to develop a high-potential opportunity around fusion, but also another area is connected to autonomous mobility. Again, linked to some work going on at Culham around robotics, that kind of piece around connected autonomous vehicles and mobility. Oxfordshire, and with our partners in the West Midlands, lead the world in some of that work. So we're pushing hard for investment there and we've seen investment come into Oxfordshire, into companies like Oxbotica, an amazing company that's just a stone's throw away from where we're sitting at the moment. It's grown significantly. So there's that area and then in other areas, in other sectors where we are truly world-leading, COVID-19 shone an incredibly bright light on the life sciences capabilities in Oxfordshire and that whole journey around drug discovery and we see frequently large-scale investment coming into Oxfordshire that builds on that life science excellence, whether it's the Serum Institute from India coming here or Ipsham from France or Evotech, a whole range of fantastic life sciences and healthcare companies and then ones we're growing ourselves as well, Oxford Nanopore, which is now one of our biggest companies in Oxfordshire, span out from the university, relatively not long ago in the greatest scheme of things, but now has its own manufacturing site at Harwell, has a site here in Oxford as well, and has revolutionized kind of DNA sequencing and played a real part in tracking the COVID-19 virus. 19:17 Then, future of mobility, areas like electric motors. Yassa has recently been bought by Mercedes Benz, another university spin-out, massive, hundreds of millions of pounds of investment there. Mahindra, the Indian motor company here in Oxfordshire, and Sayata, another company that's fast-growing, doing massive work in big trading with motorcycle operators and companies in India. Then, space and satellites, rewind six or seven years. There were a couple of space organisations at Harwood. It's now the largest space cluster in Europe with over 100 companies and 1,400 employees. Companies like Thales and Lockheed Martin, AstraScale, Japanese owned, a brilliant company that started with one person five years ago is now 150 people through rounds and rounds of international investment. I think that's a really important point as well, Howard. It's about attracting international investment into Oxfordshire because of the science and technology, the clusters, the talent, all those things. But once they're here, it's about getting even more expansion and helping those companies to grow. Howard Bentham - 20:18 And also maintaining it, really. The pandemic has certainly not helped. Brexit potentially has not helped in the areas you're talking about. So how can that be maintained? Sebastian Johnson - 20:29 It's a good question we can never be complacent and we have to think about what are the ingredients? What is it that international investors want? They want that access to talent. We've got fantastic talent here in Oxfordshire. They want to see strengthened sectors and clusters, and we've got that in those areas that I've just outlined. They want to see research capabilities and assets. Harwell, you know 16, I think, of the national research facilities are in one place in Harwell, enabling you to do research in Harwell. You can't do anywhere else in the world. It's not just an Oxfordshire or UK asset. It's a global asset in terms of research. The quality of the real estate offer. 21:05 We see immense investment coming in from the likes of Brookfield, international investors, Brookfield, Cadans, Titians, Stanhope in Oxfordshire because they recognize the opportunities to build that kind of real estate investment offer that sits along with talent and everything else and then that good connectivity, the kind of local and global supply chains that exists here and it's kind of add all those ingredients together and you make powerful opportunities for potential investors and add to that the softer stuff around, you know, the cultural offer of a place like Oxfordshire, it's a really nice place to live and work, it's got access to great schools, all that kind of stuff. It's a really kind of potent mix to attract investors into a place like Oxfordshire. Howard Bentham - 21:47 Tim, how crucial has OxLEP's role been in supporting your work at Cullum and indeed the wider community at Cullum? Tim Bestwick - 21:53 Yeah, absolutely. There are facilities at Cullum that OxLEP has supported that are key to what we're doing. I think Sebastian's points are all very well made. I think the thing that this region has is a real critical mass in those fields and of course, that becomes a bit self-sustaining. There's a gravitational pull of that critical mass, which means that, you know, Oxfordshire is really a leading location for all of those fields, which is just a humongous opportunity. I also think it's really important to dwell on Sebastian's point that we shouldn't be complacent. The rest of the world looks at innovation as a key economic driver. They look at what we're doing as something that is, you know, a prize to be won and lots of other places in the world will be, you know, wanting to get in on the action as leading the world in those sectors because the economic opportunity is so substantial. So, you know, if we're going to continue to be the best at what we do, we really have to work at it. Howard Bentham - 22:55 And how can you best instigate successful private and public funding partnerships? Because we talked about the long-termism, so realistically you're going to need some government help here too. How easy is that to navigate? Tim Bestwick - 23:09 The government actually funding for the science innovation part that I come from has been extraordinarily strong over the last few years. The assets, for example, at Harwell are extraordinarily well funded and they are a collection that is, I think, pretty much unique on the planet. It is an extraordinary place. The government support for the fusion programme at Culham has actually been very strong, you know, driven by the strong forces that we talked about earlier, the need to bring on clean, secure energy. So actually, government funding for a lot of what we're doing has really been very firm. Sebastian Johnson - 23:48 And on the connectivity piece, you know, government's commitment to ECS Rail is really important and that connecting Oxford and Cambridge, which are two centres of global excellence in terms of innovation in science and technology. But of course, we're going to be banging on the government's door about things like the Cairney branch line. It really opens up the southeast of the city of Oxford and so there will always be asks of the government. That's never easy, but the business case can be made. I think we've got some incredibly willing partners in the private sector. I mentioned some of them that are here in Oxford, the link to the Cairney branch line with Brookfield and Larry Ellison and his new research institute that's coming to Oxford and many more. So I think that kind of that public and private partnership and approach to investment has to be the way forward and we have to embrace that and work and I think one of our jobs as OxLEP is to be the convener that brings those bodies together and I think that can be done. Howard Bentham - 24:44 Tim and Sebastian, thank you both for the moment. We'll chat again shortly. It's good to have you along for OxTalks, the brand-new podcast series powered by the Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership. If you want to get in touch with the team at OxLEP to comment on what you've been hearing, find us on social media. We are on Twitter @OxfordshireLEP or via LinkedIn search for Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership. Perhaps you run a company or organisation that is looking for some specific help or simply need a steer to the most appropriate business advice available. Why not try the OxLEP Business Support Tool? OxLEP Business Support Tool - 25:24 OxLEPs business support tool is here to help your company. Whether you're just starting out, growing, or ready to take on a new business challenge. If you're looking for the latest advice and support, complete our business support tool today and get set to receive a bespoke action plan for your organization. Head to Oxfordshirelep.com to find out more. Howard Bentham - 25:48 Let's chat more to Tim Bestwick from the UK Atomic Energy Authority and Sebastian Johnson from OxLEP. Tim, you're also non-executive director at the Harwell Science and Innovation campus. Try and quantify how important having clusters and campuses like Harwell and Culham is for these cutting edge technologies. Tim Bestwick - 26:08 Well, I think you'd expect me to say this, but I think Harwell is an extraordinary, amazing It has the most extraordinary collection of science and innovation activities and I really challenge anyone to find anywhere on the planet That's that's quite like it It's obviously grown up over many years It started as the atomic energy research establishment and it's diversified into all kinds of directions and ways and now there are such extraordinary substantial things there this that home to the diamond light sources the Isis neutron source as the the laser extreme photonics facility There's all the space activities. There's a satellite test facility I mean the list just goes on and on and on and you have to end up pinching yourself to think is this all really in One place in southern Oxfordshire and it is. 26:51 Now actually the way that the commercial interaction with that and a lot of the innovation is developing there is around themed clusters so those clusters are you know themed around common interest so that the first one was a space cluster I think Sebastian mentioned it started actually with two space organisations, but now it has hundreds and it's got, I think, probably the largest number of space organisations in walking distance anywhere. So clusters are a really useful way of organising around common interests and they're a coalition of the willing, they're not a formal organisation in the sense that they have a membership structure. But they're organisations that really want to achieve the same sort of outcomes and are very happy and willing to to collaborate on those issues that they all have in common and there are many issues, I mean lots of pre-competitive issues around things like, for example, skills. So it's a challenge that everybody has. So I think they're very important and I think they're a really important principle of the way Harwell as a campus is organised. Howard Bentham - 27:54 And obviously propels the campus globally. Sebastian, anything to add to what Tim's saying there? Sebastian Johnson - 28:00 I think I agree with everything Tim says and Harwell is one of the places I enjoy going to the most because I always learn about something new. There's always something new happening there and you talk to businesses or researchers and it's just, and the scale of different organisations there, I think there are over a hundred universities from across the whole world involved in research projects any one time. It's just phenomenal in that kind of global reach sense. It's just brilliant and then it kind of in emerging areas as well, quantum computing, which kind of my job is is brilliant because I get to scratch the surface and I never really truly understand these things, but I get to work with people who do and talking about government funding, one of the buildings being built right now is the National Quantum Computing Centre. So that's going to drive a further cluster of companies at Harwell doing really groundbreaking research and groundbreaking innovation and commercialising new things that's so, so, so exciting. So it's that continued growth as well and I think we both mentioned the word, we mustn't be complacent and I think it's about finding new groupings, new clusters, new opportunities for people to collaborate, to be seeking investment, for us to be promoting those investments because that drives new commercial opportunities, new solutions to those massive world challenges we've touched on. Howard Bentham - 29:17 And with that being glib, we've got a planet to save as well, haven't we? You've both played a key role in OxLEP's contribution to COP26 and the idea of a billion-ton drop in global carbon emissions is possible, led by what happens in tech on the global stage here in Oxfordshire. Try and sum up the role, or what role, Oxfordshire can play in helping create a cleaner future. Sebastian Johnson - 29:40 I think the event we held 18 months ago really kind of was great at helping the world to understand how a place like Oxfordshire can really show the difference innovation can make and how, more importantly, that can be replicated and scaled up across the globe. Hence, that kind of billion-ton drop. And just since, in those last 18 months, so much has happened in fusion. Tim's outline kind of how we're moving forward with companies like Tokamak, First Light Fusion, General Fusion, and some of the experiments coming out with added progress and results and the news from the US at the back end of last year was really encouraging. So there's all that kind of stuff. But since then, the university has launched its Zero Institute. We at OxLEP have funded the energy systems accelerator, which brings together private and public sector organisations, again, universities, energy providers, local authorities, all working together to look at local energy solutions that can be replicated and scaled. I think that's really important. I talked about the future of mobility and the stuff going on around electric motors and really interesting work around vertical takeoff and landing, electric vertical takeoff and landing and use of hydrogen and ammonia in transport, battery technology. 30:55 We've had some very exciting news in the last week or so about a new battery plant being developed with Williams Advanced Engineering and Fortescue, their investors from Australia, Oxford PV and other spin-outs from the university doing even more work on renewables and then materials-based work with companies like Sempfi looking to find new materials that can be used that kind to try and move us so far away from single-use plastic and we've built all of that kind of story and narrative into an event called Ox to Zero last year that was to promote the innovation here, the investment opportunities and that was really successful and a good opportunity for Tim to talk more about that and Fusion 22, which kind of put Fusion further on the map there. Tim Bestwick - 31:37 Yeah, we're all used to understanding that there's a real climate emergency going on. I think what we're less used to talking about is the technology that's going to help us solve it and that exactly was the thinking behind the Ox to Zero event that Sebastian mentioned, which I think will run again this year. Because actually, I think, you know, our appetite has moved on from, yes, we know there's a problem. Yes, we know there's a crisis. Yes, we know we're doing lots of things that are very bad for the environment and for future generations to, okay, what are we actually now going to do? And as Sebastian has listed very eloquently, there are a whole bunch of things happening in this region that could be really, really important. Now, I wouldn't pretend that Oxford has the entire solution for the entire planet. It's a bigger challenge than that. But we have lots of things, be it fusion as a future low-carbon energy source, be it hydrogen storage, be it batteries, as you say, be it the future of mobility, be it materials that really could make a difference and we wanted to showcase those and I think we will continue to do that because I think we're in the business, the global community is in the business of looking for solutions. Sebastian Johnson - 32:40 And I think that's a critical point in the global community. The offer, the invitation from Oxford and Oxfordshire is come and work with us. We've got assets, we've got capabilities. Come and work with us, explore with us, experiment with us and I'm sure we'd like to come and experiment with you as well, whoever you are. But there's a kind of global community and we can't do this in isolation. We have to be doing this in collaboration. Howard Bentham - 33:03 Got a couple of questions from our social channels to put you both. You'll find us on Twitter and on LinkedIn. Given the variety of renewable energy sources all fighting for the same investments, and with fusion perhaps being one of the furthest from mass production, does this present a challenge to fusion moving forwards? Tim, probably one for you to pick up on. Tim Bestwick - 33:23 So we have to decarbonise our energy and we're going to do that, I think, in the future with not just one solution but a set of them. And I have absolutely no doubt that variable renewables such as wind and solar are part of those. I think we should develop fusion as fast as we can to be another candidate, another force of energy too. The challenge and the problem is big enough that it is not which one are we gonna pick. The challenge and the issue is big enough that we have to actually progress on all fronts and the amount of money going into developing these feels like a large number until you compare it to actually what we spend on energy, even what we spend on R&D and conventional fossil fuel energy at the moment. So I don't think it's a competition for investment resources. I think we have no choice but to go for all of these. Howard Bentham -34:13 Is there enough public awareness of the potential of fusion energy? Tim Bestwick - 34:17 We at UK AEA and within the fusion cluster certainly are trying to do things to raise public awareness. We're very mindful that we want to raise the awareness of fusion as a potential energy source that could really make a big difference and has lots of attributes that make it extremely exciting for the challenges we face. But on the other hand, we don't want to over promise because it's not going to be ready you know next year, it's not going to be ready the year after, it's a long-term haul. So we're trying to tread that balancing act of engaging people in it, trying to generate interest, trying to generate enthusiasm because we need that support without sort of over promising what we do and I think we're on that journey and I hope that gradually public awareness of this opportunity is increasing. Howard Bentham - 35:00 And just the final points on social channels. Given Oxfordshire's strengths in science and innovation, perhaps one for you Sebastian here, how does our labour market currently shape up? Are we positioned well to attract the world's best talent? Sebastian Johnson - 35:14 Yeah, it's a really good question. There are two parts to that really in terms of our labour market. There's work to be done on matching the skills required of businesses and research organisations like UK AEA and the skills that our kids are coming out of school with and we're doing a lot of work on that in terms of skill strategy and the Advanced Skills Center on Cullum. So that's always on our mind as the agency that's responsible for skill strategy. That's a really key issue for us to constantly be looking at and how, and I think a really important point, Howard, how we make those jobs in science and technology really attractive to people who wouldn't immediately assume that scenario for them and I think there's some more work to be done, and we're doing lots of work around apprenticeships, stuff like that. The second bit about world's best talent is a really important piece as well because it's an incredibly competitive market there and we've outlined in this conversation a whole range of things where Oxfordshire's leading the way and I think there's the stuff that we need to keep an eye on in terms of how easy is it for people to live here? What's the cost of living? What's the price of housing? How's the connectivity that attracts people to be able to work here? What's the travel to work area? But there's something that is in our favour, massively in our favour in terms of global talent, I think, and that's the values proposition. We've talked about, you know, Oxfordshire really is at the forefront of finding solutions to some of the world's greatest challenges and people want to be involved in that and I think that's something that we, we perhaps as a card, we don't play hard enough, but we should be because stuff is going on here that we've outlined that doesn't go on anywhere else in the world and people want to be part of that and I think that, you know, I call it the values proposition. I don't know if that's the right term, but it's kind of that thing that you know actually people want to be part of this community part of the solution to these challenges and I think that's a really good promising positive notion to communicate. Howard Bentham - 37:05 Tim Is the fusion sector currently experiencing a skill shortage like many areas of industry? And where do you look for your talent? Tim Bestwick - 37:13 Yeah. No, it's a real challenge It's a real challenge because the sector has expanded very rapidly and the exactor is spending more rapidly than people can be experts in it. So, you know, we're attracting people into the field, you know, it takes them a while to become experts. So, you know, there's a shortage. There's a shortage of skills in all kinds of the areas that we're recruiting for. We try and recruit, you know, spread on that wide, but it's a competitive market. Everybody's expanding. We're victims of a very successful science research and innovation field and everybody wants the best. I think we are certainly helped that we're an attractive part of the world to come and live in. I think I think it's one of the Oxfordshire area's real strengths is that it's seen as a nice place to live part of the people we're trying to attract Internationally mobile and they can choose where they live. So that helps a lot, but yes, it's a competitive environment for sure. Howard Bentham - 38:07 And how can OxLEP help specifically on this point Sebastian? Are there training resources available to support the developments of the required talent? Sebastian Johnson - 38:16 Yeah, there's a lot happening in this space Howard I've mentioned the advanced skills training centric column that OxLEP funded that's kind of looking at what that works really closely with UK AEA and STFC at Harvard Science and Technology facilities council to help train the technicians and scientists of the future. There's the apprenticeship programs that we're developing with employers and we're looking Howard at creative ways, piloting through as part of our social contract, a way that those companies aren't using their apprenticeship levy, can trade it with other companies that really want to do more with apprenticeships. So trying to make sure we're utilizing the funds that are available to really make a difference and then I mentioned the strategy skills work, always looking at what are the skill shortages, what are the skills needs, how are we developing those, how are we working with the colleges and education providers to develop the right educational programs that meet the needs of businesses and institutes as well and then that piece I mentioned about how do we promote STEM, science, technology, engineering, maths, and indeed the arts as well, because you think about design in robotics and all that kind of stuff, really, really important. How do we promote those career opportunities to local people? 39:27 There's always more we can do in terms of government, industry, professional bodies. But I think OxLEP's kind of in that space. We're working with others to make sure we can do everything we can and we're lucky as well. We've got the world's best university here churning out some incredible talent and I think, you know, and again, and the UK's best new university, Oxford Brookes University as well and we've been doing some interesting work with the career service of both those universities about how do we remarket, if you like, to graduates coming out of the universities, remarket the opportunities on our doorstep in Oxfordshire, rather than perhaps going into the consultancy route of career. Why not think about the science and technology on our doorstep that we can do? So all of that, and then some of that stuff around the values proposition I kind of mentioned as well. We're all working hard on that stuff. Howard Bentham - 40:13 Let's get some final thoughts from both of you. Tim, what more needs to be done then to encourage investment in the fusion sector, both in Oxfordshire and I guess internationally? \ Tim Bestwick - 40:22 I think we, the fusion sector, have to show a path to delivering energy and we're working hard on that. And I'm hugely encouraged by the collaboration that's going on between those of us in the public sector, the big research labs like UK AEA, a column and the private companies and the supply chain supplying us the technology we need and I think out of that collaboration will forge the alliances and the programs that will deliver this as something practical that makes a difference to us. Howard Bentham - 40:53 Sebastian, the goal for Oxfordshire is to become a top three global innovation hub by 2040 as outlined in the 2019 local industrial strategy from OxLEP. Do you think that's still a possibility? What are the main challenges to overcome? Sebastian Johnson - 41:08 Yeah, of course, I think it's a possibility And I hope it comes over that I'm excited and confident that we're getting there. We've got all of the pieces of that jigsaw in place in many respects. The talent piece we've talked about, they're having an incredibly talented pool of people working in the innovation ecosystem. Access to finance, we've touched on it a bit within fusion, but you look at the access to finance that the spin-outs and companies spinning out of Culham and Harwell have through Oxford Sciences Enterprise has been a real game changer in that early stage finance and enabling big, big venture capital funds like Google Ventures and Tama Sec and others to come in over the top to provide that large scale finance. So there's that access to finance. We've talked about the infrastructure and the quality of the real estate really, really strong and some big, big international players here in Oxfordshire working on that and then something that we haven't really touched on much is the regulatory environment and actually the UK is a real leader in those areas. 42:11 I talked about connected autonomous vehicles. The UK was the first country to provide regulation around that area, which kind of de-risks for investors, I think, to a degree and the UK has led the world in terms of regulation around fusion, which is really, really positive as well. So that regulatory environment is really, really encouraging. Clusters and networks, we've talked about the strength of clusters here. We've got that and we've got growing clusters if you just look at quantum as an example of where that will be in a few years' time and then that education system that's bringing through the talent, that's promoting the STEM areas and how we blend all of that is the trick really into that kind of world-class innovation ecosystem that investors want to be in, that people want to be working out, that people want to be a part of. It's kind of self-fueling. I think Tim made the point earlier. If you get it right, it will kind of continue to grow and grow and grow. We've got to be on the sidelines doing a bit of rowing, steering, and cheering, if you like, all the time to kind of ensure that we're moving the right way. So I'm always confident. I'm a confident kind of person and Oxfordshire is an amazing place. It's got so much going for it. I don't doubt for a second that we will be and continue to be a global leading innovation ecosystem. Howard Bentham - 43:21 And final words to you, Tim. What can we expect? I know you didn't want to sort of hang a timeframe on any of this, but what can we expect to see in fusion development in the next say five to ten years? Tim Bestwick - 43:32 So I think you'll see a stream of technical results coming out addressing the technical challenges. I think last year was a bumper year for fusion results. No reason to believe that that will stop. We'll see more technical results. We'll see more money going into the field. Expect every indication to other government enthusiasm will continue. I think it'll become more competitive and I think we will inch our way towards producing a new future energy source that will make a real difference. It won't happen overnight, but as I said, I think the challenge is worth the effort. It's important. Howard Bentham - 44:09 Sebastian, thank you very much for your contributions sir. Sebastian Johnson - 44:11 It's a pleasure. It's been great. I've learned a lot and I'll never look at the sun in the same way. Howard Bentham - 44:17 I'll tell you what, if you were my science teacher, Tim, it would have been a whole different story, I think. Tim Bestwick - 44:22 Thank you, Howard. It was a pleasure. a pleasure and thank you Sebastian. Howard Bentham - 44:25 Huge thanks to Tim Bestwick from the UK Atomic Energy Authority. A big thank you also to Sebastian Johnson from OxLEP and thank you for listening to OxTalks. This is the fourth podcast in the series and we hope you'll tune in to more. Find us where you normally get your podcasts, please tell your friends or colleagues and if you feel so inclined please leave us a review. Feel free to share your thoughts and suggestions on our social channels, it'll be good to hear from you. Remember, business support in Oxfordshire is just an email or a phone call away. 44:58 The OxLEP Business Support Tool can signpost you to expert help in a matter of minutes. It's definitely worth taking a look. Find it on our website, oxfordshirelep.com. Do tune in again to the series when we'll be exploring the importance of providing support for small businesses in the current market and the role of ESG in business growth and creating a legacy and if you didn't catch the first three editions of OxTalks, find out what MakeSpace Oxford's Andy Edwards is doing to repurpose buildings in the county to help disadvantaged communities. Hear from the CEO at Blenheim Palace, Dominic Hare, on the importance of the visitor economy and Chas Bountra from Oxford University with his vision to retain world-class talent in Oxfordshire. All well worth a listen. But for now, from the OxLEP team and from me, Howard Bentham, it's goodbye!