Creating Opportunities For All Communities

Howard Bentham 0:03 Hello there and welcome to this brand-new podcast series. OxTalks, powered by OxLEP, The Local Enterprise Partnership for Oxfordshire, is all new for 2023 and aims to give you more insight into the great work that OxLEP does, empowering and enabling businesses right across Oxfordshire and beyond, to add value to their organisation, and crucially to the communities they serve. I'm Howard Bentham and over the coming episodes, I'll be meeting some key characters in the county, finding out how they're changing business for the better, and how the support they receive from OxLEP might also benefit your company, SME, social enterprise or even multinationals too. Although we're naturally focusing on Oxfordshire, if you're listening to us in the surrounding counties, or even in another part of the UK, many of the issues we experience here will be very similar to the ones you're facing where you are, do share your thoughts, stories and observations with us, plus crucially, solutions to the problems that you've found. Social media is the best place for this, and we'll pick up on your messages in forthcoming podcasts. We are @oxfordshireLEP on Twitter, and Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership on LinkedIn, and we look forward to hearing from you. In this episode, we will explore if we really are doing enough to create opportunities for all communities. Although home to the world's best university for a seventh year running, Oxfordshire also has many communities that suffer from deprivation, major cost of living difficulties, and a stifling lack of opportunities, particularly for those from diverse communities and backgrounds. Official figures from 2019, pre-pandemic, show Oxfordshire is the 10th least deprived place out of the 150 or so comparable local authority areas in the country. No surprise, I guess when you consider the high property prices and rents in the city and wider county. But there are 17 wards within the county, specifically in Oxford, Banbury and Abingdon that fall into the 20% most deprived areas in England. It's a striking contrast. Certainly, when there's talk of levelling up, we don't need to look too far from home. It's a fact that people in the likes of places such as Littlemore or Rosehill are struggling to reengage with the labour market following the pandemic. What are the barriers they are facing? Are there realistic solutions? And is there the will to fix this? In this podcast, we'll hear from an inspiring business leader who is bringing about positive change, ensuring that Oxfordshire's hardest-to-reach communities can grasp opportunities. He is one of the key players of Makespace Oxford, who are helping to reimagine spaces, and locations for the benefit of all, we'll also learn just what OxLEP are doing to support this change through its latest batch of business support programmes. With us is Andy Edwards, who's an architect, activist and champion for social change, he is a co-founder of Transition By Design and Executive Director at Makespace Oxford. So before we get into what you do, Andy, and whether we're doing enough to create opportunities for all communities here, let's find out a bit about you. How long have you been in Oxford Andy? Andy Edwards 3:23 Must be getting on for over a dozen years now. So yeah, I'm feeling part of the furniture. Howard Bentham 3:27 Alright. So almost local, then. Andy Edwards 3:29 Almost, yeah. Howard Bentham 3:31 You've got a background in architecture, what inspired you to study architecture? Andy Edwards 3:35 Yeah, sure. I was very lucky. I grew up in an architectural household. So my dad was an architect and they actually sort of designed, well he designed and my parents built their own house on a waste piece of land in rural Somerset and so that's where I kind of grew up and how I was sort of initiated into ideas of design and placemaking and architecture and it was really just sort of being around lots of books, my dad's giant drawing board, and endless kind of conversations that at the time felt very abstract that sort of, I guess, eventually inspired me to follow suit. Howard Bentham 4:09 And the tour t-shirt of your life also incorporates a visit to India for a spell working there. Tell us about that and how it shaped your thinking. Andy Edwards 4:18 Yeah, sure. It's going back a decade or more. But I was very lucky from studying my undergrad in architecture. I joined a charity called Architecture Sans Frontiers, so without borders, and they were working with a range of different NGOs across the world, but one in particular in India, looking at disaster risk reduction and post-disaster reconstruction. So what is the role of the architect in responding to natural disasters, or man-made disasters in some cases, and I went on a course out there learning about what disaster risk reduction looks like in terms of design, and I fell in love with the place and ended up volunteering for an NGO and then working for them in a sort of post-disaster context in rural India. Howard Bentham 4:59 Community is such an important part of Indian culture, isn't it? Is there something we can learn from that sense of community here that we can engage in, in our thinking and perhaps affects your thinking now? Andy Edwards 5:11 I mean, undoubtedly, I think everywhere has something to teach us about the role of community. I think, obviously, my experience is very particular. But just speaking from that context, I think the hospitality in the welcome that I received was quite extraordinary and just understanding the difference from working in a place like Delhi were actually much the same as many places here in the UK, there's lots of isolation, lots of atomisation. It's very fast-paced, polluting, very industrialised, very hostile, compared to some of the villages that I was working in where those family ties, those community ties were really, really tight. Of course, you can't sort of sort of flatten the experience of different communities and there was lots going on there, you know, particularly thinking about myself, you know, as a white British male, in that context being received and welcomed. But you know, there's extraordinary poverty that I was witnessing there and also that kind of separation in certain communities that was really palpable through things like the caste system. Howard Bentham 6:08 Yeah and that disparity is very much here in the UK and very much here in Oxfordshire and indeed, in Oxford itself. Do we perhaps forget that seemingly more affluent communities like those in Oxfordshire do in fact have quite big pockets of deprivation, where greater outreach and inspiration is needed? Andy Edwards 6:28 I think if you're working in a social sector, whether it's social design, or social justice areas, where Makespace in our work has tried to situate itself, I think it's very visible. It's absolutely clear. I think, to many in society, and you see the divides, and you see the disconnect between certain people's experience of living in, you know, one of the least affordable cities in the UK, if you're part of certain communities, you might not be aware of what's going on, on the fringes and the level of deprivation that exists there. Howard Bentham 6:58 Yeah. Would you say that's typical of here, then that people are actually not that aware that parts of Abingdon, parts of Banbury, and parts of Oxford really are actually very deprived and it's just not in people's day-to-day, it's not a part of their consciousness? Andy Edwards 7:12 I think that's true for a lot of places. I think it's more acute and extreme in Oxford, because of the unaffordability of things like housing, land and access to buildings. But yeah, I think it exists everywhere. But it's concentrated in such a small place where you've got such extremes in wealth disparity. I think that's, that's where we've got a lot to address and a lot to learn. Howard Bentham 7:32 Yeah, it's almost like people sometimes are blind to it. I mean, where I grew up in Bedford, we had very much that the north of the town was the richer side of town, that side of the river with the posh schools and on the south side, where I grew up, it was exactly the opposite of that, and trying to get that sort of mobility and feel that communities are being addressed and the issues in those communities are being addressed. If you feel a little bit cut adrift if you're a part of that community. Andy Edwards 7:57 Yeah, if you've experienced sort of talking with students from the university in the city, and they often, you know, sort of celebrate the fact that you can cycle everywhere in Oxford in 15 minutes and I said, Well, you can you can cycle to many places in Oxford in 15 minutes. But actually, if you go a little bit further, you discover a whole other side of the city that you otherwise don't know exists and similarly, from the work we've done in Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill, a lot of people associate their urban centre, their town, as being Cowley Centre, or, you know, the centre of Blackbird Leys. They don't associate themselves with the city and I think that's a real shame and I think on both sides, everyone's missing out. Howard Bentham 8:31 We've talked about the geography surrounding the isolated and deprived communities here in Oxfordshire. But from your experience, who are we talking about? What kind of people from what type of communities? Andy Edwards 8:44 Yeah, I don't really think it's for me to sort of speak on behalf of particular places and particular communities, I can say a little bit about where our work has been focusing and so we've just completed the first phase of a project called Owned by Oxford, which has been primarily focused on Blackbird Leys and Barton was a little bit of focus on the city centre as well, where there is areas of deprivation and I think we're trying to both listen, learn, understand and shift the narrative around those places. So deprivation gets talked about a lot, or I've heard people say, hard to reach, you know, and we actually say, it's hard to hear, actually, hard to listen to, for some reason, for whatever reason, we're just not listening to what's going on in those communities and what people are saying. Howard Bentham 9:31 And when you say we, who's we? Andy Edwards 9:32 I think those with the power and the resources, and often those trying to do get, you know, those wanting to proactively and positively engage in those spaces and it can feel a very top-down and extractive model that we're sort of perpetuating, so Owned by Oxford, which are sort of championing a kind of community wealth building approach is much more about listening to and responding to what's going on in those communities and not talking about the deprivation, not talking about how hard to reach people are but talking about the assets that are there. It's very much an assets-based approach, you know, what ingenuity, creativity, competencies already exist and how are we able to perhaps work with those communities to remove the barriers so that they can get on and do what they do really well? Because it's it's not for anything other than, you know, too many barriers that stepping in their way and a lack of access to resource. Howard Bentham 10:21 And that's the key barrier for you. Is it the lack of access to resource? Andy Edwards 10:26 I think it's one of the fundamental ones, I think, yeah, there's, there's a lot at play. But fundamentally, these places have been under-invested in for at least a decade, if not more and that makes it very hard for people to access opportunities, set up new businesses, or kind of connect with people in the way that we might all wish to. Howard Bentham 10:47 I think you've contexted it really, really well, the situation we have here in Oxfordshire. Let's talk a bit about Makespace Oxford and the work you do there specifically now and perhaps the fabulously titled Meanwhile in Oxfordshire, I think that's a great name for a programme that you've collaborated on with OxLEP. Andy Edwards 11:06 Yeah, sure. So 18 months, actually, almost two years ago, we were awarded the contract. So this was funding coming from Central Government, post-pandemic recovery. It's called Getting Building Fund and it was really ministers wanting to see okay, well how can we respond to the immediate aftermath while still being in the throes of the pandemic? So it was kind of capital grant programme saying, how can we respond to what we're seeing is the kind of closure of many high streets and shops, retail spaces, in urban centres? How can we respond by trying to reanimate those, so if we put some grant into refurbishing those buildings, making them accessible to a broad range of different groups and organisations, what kind of impact without having sort of drawing people safely back to those high streets and trying to sort of create a sustainable recovery if you like, to the local economy. Howard Bentham 11:57 A lot of people might suggest, oh, this is COVID that's created a lot of empty spaces. But actually, what you've been saying is that this was happening well, before the pandemic. Andy Edwards 12:06 Yeah, it's pretty systemic stuff, I think we're seeing a kind of a long-term decline, it's been well-reported long-term decline in the high streets and urban centres for many kinds of different reasons around just general decline in how the economy has been structured and working or not working for many and so I think there was this anticipation that the numbers would rapidly increase, I think, actually, what we saw is that the nature just shifted. We talked a little bit about how people are using accessing space and needing space, shifting phenomenally from everyone being cooped up in their homes, to then wanting to re-engage with the public sphere, wanting to get out of their homes again, to access green spaces, or workspaces, but doing that in a very different way and so we've been through the programme, almost sort of trying to respond to that change in real-time. So we talked about it being you know, a lot of learning, iterating, prototyping, testing, experimenting, there wasn't a kind of clear, you know, solution that we could sort of pull off the shelf. We're in uncharted waters. So that's been really exciting and it's meant for lots of successes, plenty of failures, lots of learning, but the idea that you kind of iterate and you learn quick, and you respond, and you do it better next time. Howard Bentham 13:20 Let's hear a few examples then, because I know there's the hub space on Aristotle Lane in North Oxford, for example, describe the sort of businesses that operate there and the sort of community that has sprung up really with what you're doing. Andy Edwards 13:34 Yeah, sure. So Aristotle Lane sort of predates Meanwhile in Oxfordshire, that was our first hub space, classic example of a building empty for I think it was more than four or five years, the owners and Oxford college not knowing what to do with it, knowing that they wanted to kind of do a longer term redevelopment and so that was sort of an interstitial, this sort of meanwhile period, who sort of meanwhile, between what are the grand plans for the landowner and what's happening now and that was an opportunity for us to kind of intervene, take on a short term lease, and really kind of throw open the doors and say, who would like to be part of this experiment? Howard Bentham 14:07 How short is a short-term lease? Andy Edwards 14:09 So that particular lease was two years but you know, when we talk about Meanwhile, it's kind of like meanwhile, to who. You know, when you look at a college, you know, they, you know, they plan on the 50-100 year timeframe. But, you know, 6/12 months could be make or break to a community business starting up. So, you know, it can be anything from a pop-up for a day, you know, a day-long event, right, the way through to some of the leases we've taken on which are 10 years plus. But yeah, to go back to kind of what does the community look and feel like? We were very clear not to determine who should be coming into space. Instead, we sort of set a criteria that we wanted people to work to. So are they delivering a social or environmental benefit locally? Are they interested in working in a sort of spirit of mutual aid support and solidarity? Are they interested in connecting and collaborating with other organisations? Are they sort of pulling in the same direction as it were? But whether they're from a particular sector or not, we're totally agnostic and as a result, you kind of walk through the doors of, Aristotle Lane's a good example and you've got young women's music projects, right next to a community pottery studio and then you've got a charity working over there, you've got Share Oxford as a library of things. Howard Bentham 15:19 That seems is really random. Andy Edwards 15:20 It really does. Yeah, and it might present itself that way. But I think when you're in the space, you kind of get it, in that everyone's part of kind of creating a new economy in a way, a sort of more regenerative economy, you're promoting sharing items, and loaning items, rather than buying anew, you know, you're promoting things like bringing people together to create a safe space to learn and create music, or access that kind of a craft like pottery and so it's kind of all coming around this idea of connection and creativity. Howard Bentham 15:52 So in practice then, a meanwhile lease would work how? Andy Edwards 15:56 It can work in many different ways, the Makespace model is to broke a release, so a legal agreement with the landlord on an empty building, and then licence out that space to a resident who then becomes part of our community, we take on the costs of managing the space, and in some cases, the refurbishment where that's needed and then we charge what's called a fair or affordable rent to the residents and we try and sort of balance that very carefully between what's affordable to that resident, because that changes in every context, whether we can balance the books, so whether we can generate enough income to just cover our operating costs and also, what does the local market look like? So in some places, the market rates might be higher or lower, and sort of by balancing all of those factors, we try and come to a fair rent. Howard Bentham 16:44 Yeah, I can almost hear people listening to this podcast shouting, where's the money come from then? You obviously need to repurpose spaces, there must be a budget, who's paying? Andy Edwards 16:54 Yeah, well, the Meanwhile in Oxfordshire programme, which is the opportunity for us to go from two hub spaces to nearly 30 buildings brought back into use in 18 months, which is pretty much unprecedented across the country. That was possible through OxLEP and the £1.69 million of capital grant, which went straight into refurbishing those buildings because that's where a lot of the heavy lifting goes. But then there is the management and maintenance costs. So we operate our... we're a social business, we're a nonprofit, any surpluses go straight back into our mission, which is to unlock other empty buildings, bring them back into use, we operate on a basis of kind of blended income streams or mixed-income. So generating some income from our residents. But that, you know, by virtue of wanting to charge as affordable a rate as possible, it doesn't necessarily cover the full costs. So then we top that up with grants where we can access it. Howard Bentham 17:48 But what about the point that they are temporary, as you say, maybe a six-month lease, and you've spent money, refurbishing, repurposing, whatever you want to call it, that money, potentially just going to be ripped out and wasted? Is that throwing good money after bad? Andy Edwards 18:03 It can be. It really could be and so... Howard Bentham 18:06 And so that's taxpayers' money? That's ultimately it is. Andy Edwards 18:09 Absolutely, yeah and what's interesting is, you know, the council designed the programme, and they were looking for occupancy of a minimum of six weeks, seems ludicrous that you would... Howard Bentham 18:19 A minimum of six weeks? Andy Edwards 18:21 ... put this amount of money into leases. But of course, what we've done is we've said, how much value can we generate? You know, and how much can you recycle this money? So for example, if we didn't do anything for six weeks, but you know, we did have several 12-month leases, so you're going to put less money into those buildings and you're also going to put it into things that add value longer term. So if you're putting in a heating system, you're going to put in something that's plug and play, you're not going to instal infrastructure so you can take it with you. You're going to invest into those businesses with pieces of merchandise, ways in which they can do signage and things that will be valuable to them beyond that building and then we're putting serious money into a building. So in one case in Wantage, we've just launched the Old Stables, which was a former health centre been empty for five years, put £300,000 into that building. But that's a 10-year lease with the opportunity potentially, for longer-term acquisition. So it's owned by a council so you're trying to think, Okay, you proportionally want to be putting your investment into where it's going to be giving you the best bang for your buck, you know, where it's going to do the most for the local community. Howard Bentham 19:26 I still can hear council taxpayers screaming, that's my money. How does it play out with council taxpayers with what people tell you? Andy Edwards 19:34 Universally, everyone's so welcoming, when we go and intervene in a particular place. Generally, that sense of relief that someone is coming in to take care of a building that no one else cares about, and is actually you know, there's that sense of pride returning and take the Hayfield Road Residents Association, which is part of the local community around Aristotle Lane or around the Old Stables in Wantage. Everyone stops and goes, we're so happy you're here and you know, not only can I now join the pottery studio or come and get my trousers turned up at the tailors that's upstairs. But also, I can kind of hold my head up high that I know that something interesting and a little bit different is going on in my high street or in my community. So yeah, far from there being a sort of reticence or concern, I think we've all witnessed through COVID, the misuse of taxpayers' money writ large. I'd say the value for money that we've been able to generate, by working so hard to think about where the money goes, is a good counterpoint to where, you know, we've seen perhaps big, big money going against COVID. Howard Bentham 20:37 And how crucial is OxLEP's role in making all this happen? Andy Edwards 20:40 Well, I mean, without the grant, nothing would have been possible and we never thought that we'd be able to scale this quickly. If I'm being totally honest, I don't think an organisation should scale that quickly. You know, we often talk about, yes, growing, growing our impact, but not necessarily, you know, just growing the bottom line for the sake of it, and growing at the speed of trust, because ultimately, what we do, we're in the relationship building industry. Howard Bentham 21:04 Growing at the speed of trust. Andy Edwards 21:05 Growing at the speed of trust. Howard Bentham 21:07 That's a nice catchphrase. Andy Edwards 21:08 So we're in the relationship building industry, you know, the buildings are secondary to the places that we want to create and if the relationships aren't working, then we're not doing our job, right and if you grow very quickly, and you suddenly find that you're intervening all over the place, and our capacity was enormously stretched through the pandemic, and in trying to mobilise this programme, you suddenly you realise that you've overstretched yourself. So a lot of the work we're doing now that all these hub spaces and various buildings have been launched and reopened is actually taking the time to respond to what the communities in those places need, what they're saying, and trying to forge those relationships essentially, showing that we're in it for the long haul, you know, the tactic, the tools that we're using they're meanwhile, the process is very long term. We're not going anywhere. We care about actually long-term community place-based renewal. Howard Bentham 21:59 Rob Panting OxLEPS communications manager is here. Rob, you've picked up some questions from our social channels and elsewhere, that Andy and I have been discussing, what are folks saying? Rob Panting 22:09 Thanks Howard. Yeah, we've had some really good response from our social media following really grateful for the input from those businesses and Oxfordshire that are interested in this topic. So just to share a couple of thoughts with you, one of our social media followers asked the question around, do we need to make Oxfordshire's key sectors more accessible? And I guess that's in context really around a lot of the work OxLEP does around promoting our key sectors such as space, energy, etc. Actually, should we perhaps be looking at providing people with more practical business skills to move forward? Are those key sectors, although fantastic, and hopefully many people from a variety of different communities in Oxfordshire can benefit from them in their future career, but should we perhaps be looking more towards supporting people with greater business skills and helping them to perhaps be more entrepreneurial? Andy Edwards 23:05 Yeah, really good question. I do think we need to step out of the silo mentality of thinking purely in sectors, and perhaps think about, okay, what are the tools that we and young people need to create a sustainable livelihood for themselves, and also respond to some of the big ticket challenges that we're facing around social inequity or climate crisis and so I think it's yet it's much more a question of what are those tools that are going to allow people to move forward, tackle some of these key issues, whether that's an understanding of business models, or whether it's an understanding of things that just don't tend to get taught, whether it's in higher education or through your schooling about collaboration, partnership building, those kinds of things, I think we'll see some real shifts and positive change. Rob Panting 23:52 Absolutely, another question that's been raised is around a lot of the stuff that you've been talking about already, Andy, around social mobility and actually how successful we are in Oxfordshire or perhaps where we can improve. Are we aware of any areas elsewhere in the UK or indeed globally? You mentioned, you know, where you've worked in the past, where social mobility is actually implemented more successfully, or are actually are there similar challenges for us all in achieving that? Andy Edwards 24:23 Yeah, I think you've kind of hit it there as I think everyone's confronting the same challenges. These are kind of global forces that are acting but you're seeing lots of examples coming forward, sort of shining lights within smaller neighbourhoods, I think neighbourhood level, municipal level, communities through particular projects, whether it's around Community Land Trusts or kind of neighbourhood-led regeneration. I think they're demonstrating that that's a much more inclusive way to respond to some of the issues that are going on and kind of responding to positive reconstruction of local economy's at that level. But I think it's hard to say you know, is there a particular nation state or area that's doing it better than another. Rob Panting 25:07 Excellent. Just to add we really want more input from our followers moving forward with the podcast, so do continue to send in your questions for our future podcasts. Howard Bentham 25:17 Rob and Andy, thank you for the moment, we'll chat more shortly. Good to have you along for OxTalks, the brand-new podcast series powered by the Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership. If you want to get in touch with the team at OxLEP to comment on what you've been hearing, find us on social media. We're on Twitter @OxfordshireLEP or via LinkedIn, search for Oxfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership. Perhaps you run a company or organisation that is just looking for some specific help or simply need a steer to the most appropriate business advice available. Well, why not try the OxLEP business support tool? OxLEP Business Support Tool 25:56 OxLEPs business support tool is here to help your company. Whether you're just starting out, growing or ready to take on a new business challenge. If you're looking for the latest advice and support, complete our business support tool today and get set to receive a bespoke action plan for your organisation. Head to oxfordshirelep.com to find out more. Howard Bentham 26:20 Let's chat more to Andy Edwards from Makespace Oxford and Transition by Design. The phase one of Meanwhile in Oxfordshire finished I think that was in September. Is there a phase two? Andy Edwards 26:30 Yep. So the phase one ending means all the capital grant has been spent, we've launched all these new spaces. But that means automatically we're flowing into a phase two and there's no more grant attached to that, sadly. But it's sort of the beginning of the journey in real terms for Makespace and all the residents in those buildings. Howard Bentham 26:47 So you're on your own two feet effectively now? Andy Edwards 26:49 Exactly. Yeah. It's about making these spaces sing, bringing people together, making sure the spaces work for them, generating a sustainable income, but also securing grants ongoing to support those businesses. We'd love to draw in more capital grants, I think we've demonstrated that the kind of money that came through Meanwhile in Oxfordshire, can go an awful long way. But that's not something on the table this moment in time. Howard Bentham 27:14 Okay, and Owned by Oxford, in terms of a phase has just completed as well. Is there more to come? Andy Edwards 27:20 That is correct. Yeah. Well, we're actively fundraising to continue the work there as well. So we've sort of demonstrated how principles around community wealth building can have a demonstrable impact in local communities, particularly those that are less resourced, and with communities that are often less heard, and less seen and, you know, we've shown huge impact can be created with a very small amount of money. Let's get a lot of money and let's start properly investing in some infrastructure in those communities. Howard Bentham 27:46 I mean we're in the post-COVID economy now, aren't we? Many businesses having to change the way they operate as we've all run into the cost of living crisis. Is there a real risk and that less affluent communities may not receive the opportunities they previously would have hoped for? Andy Edwards 28:03 Yeah, I think we're looking at a sort of systemic underinvestment in those areas and there's a huge amount that needs to be done to sort of adjust the dial and change the way that money is flowing and we were talking before, you know, I think we're agreed, it's not that there isn't enough money out there. It's just very unequally distributed and so, you know, part of our work we see is in shining a light on those fantastic initiatives that are happening in communities that are more on the margins, and showing that with some modest amounts of investment, a huge amount of change can happen and championing the cause for more investment going into those areas. Howard Bentham 28:40 I mentioned in the introduction, that you've got a keen interest in social change and a part of your philosophy, as you've talked about very eloquently, is creating a more equitable and broader ownership model in our town and city space. Is that realistic or idealistic? Andy Edwards 28:55 Yeah. So to talk about social justice, what does that mean, and in the context of Makespace, and high streets placemaking, talk about spatial justice and as you say, that's absolutely about getting a more plural ownership model, having more people having a say in how our towns and cities are designed and created and changed, having people involved in the design process for that. I would say it's not only possible it's an imperative if we're going to respond to the challenges that are on our doorstep. Howard Bentham 29:23 But that's capitalism, isn't it? We're gonna have a broad economic chat, people own stuff, and they'll rent it out and they want to make money and people make more money and you get people that are very good at it. You've only got to watch the apprentice. Andy Edwards 29:35 Yeah, absolutely. You've actually reminded me I was walking past one of the studios yesterday in one of our Makespace hubs that had a poster on the wall by Ursula Le Guin and it said, beautiful illustration said, we live in capitalism. This power seems inescapable. But so did the Divine Right of Gods not so long ago and so, you know, any human power can be changed by human beings and there's nothing natural about our current property system. There's nothing natural about our economic system. It's designed and it's designed to work for a small number of people and it's eminently possible that we can make it, we can redesign it to work for more people and I think part of our job is to create little shining lights and examples, through our Makespace buildings through our partners, to show where that shift is possible. Howard Bentham 30:26 Some might argue though, you're just tinkering at the edges. Andy Edwards 30:28 It starts with tinkering and then it snowballs and I think that's the idea with Meanwhile. If you start and end with Meanwhile, what does it change? You know, you could argue it's sticking a plaster on a broken system. But if Meanwhile, is a catalyst to shifting ownership, and actually we're working with communities to acquire assets long term, then you're changing the table, you know, you're changing the way that the game is played. So if the communities own their community centres of communities own their workspaces, that's resilience that is currently being held back from those areas. That's happening, you know, and that is where you can look to, whether it's Plymouth or certain boroughs of London or Leeds or Manchester, where you're seeing communities take back control and literally take ownership of the spaces in which they're working and that just shifts the playing field. Howard Bentham 31:21 Back to the likes of Aristotle Lane and the other amazing places that you've done and help make happen. What does happen when a startup really establishes itself? Do you get to a point where you have to say, that's it guys, you've outgrown your space, or you've got to go? Have you actually had to show people the door? Andy Edwards 31:41 I think people can recognise that for themselves. So I'd say at that point, we've kind of done our job, you know, we've succeeded and ideally, organisations just get on and do it for themselves and they pick up the phone to us as and when they might need some support and I hasten to add, you know, we're, we're part of a community of actors, some of which have been doing this for decades, locally, we're a little bit ahead. But you know, the likes of fusion arts is a great example where they've been doing meanwhile, space for years, and many other people have been doing kind of pop-up interventions for years. So if they can do it themselves, great. If they need a bit of help, we're here. If they need a lot of help, and they want to be part of the community that we're building, then we're here. But the idea is to upskill, transfer our knowledge so that people can go off and we kind of want these things springing up everywhere, there are hundreds of empty buildings, you know, we've looked at over 400 empty buildings through the Meanwhile in Oxfordshire programme, we unlocked thirty, that's amazing. Howard Bentham 32:36 Just across Oxford, or Oxfordshire? Andy Edwards 32:38 Oxfordshire. Howard Bentham 32:38 There's 400 empty buildings? Andy Edwards 32:40 That we looked at, there are many more, and the idea of, you know, the reality of whether a building gets unlocked or not, it's really complex. You know, there's so many actors involved, not just the landlords, but it's also whether it you know, the changes that you want to make comply with planning laws, whether you can do it within the financial constraints that you've got and so there's so much more that we can do to affect change. But so that's why we kind of need so many more actors doing this and sharing their learning. Howard Bentham 33:08 I mentioned in the introduction about the will to make this happen. Is there the political, because it's going to be a political decision on planning and all these other aspects you're talking about, is there the will to make this happen? Andy Edwards 33:20 I think we're seeing a big shift, you know, the fact that the city council as an example as adopted inclusive economy as their mantra, you know, they're not just the idea is no longer just to service growth, but it's actually about looking at a fundamental redesign of the economy where you centre, social and environmental outcomes first, rather than it being a bolt-on, that's really exciting. The fact that they are, and the LEP is putting money into programmes like, Meanwhile in Oxfordshire, is really exciting and some of the shifts that are happening at a county level are all going in the right direction. But of course, we need more. But that's our job is to kind of just to make it so exciting and alluring, everyone wants to be part of it and be part of the change right? Howard Bentham 34:02 Let's bring back into the conversation OxLEP's Rob Panting once more. Rob, tell us about how OxLEP has been supporting greater opportunities in harder-to-reach and disadvantaged communities. There's a specific link with Blackbird Leys' Technology campus in Oxford isn't there? Rob Panting 34:17 That's correct. I mean, firstly, some stunning work that Makespace Oxford do and Andy and colleagues achieve. So I think, you know, it's important to acknowledge that. Yeah, I think from our point of view, it's important that we seek opportunities where investment can make a real difference in those communities. So the technology centre that you mentioned in Blackbird Leys, that's been open since 2016. We secured £4.5 million towards the project and the building being developed. Andy mentioned a funding stream earlier on getting building permits one's the local Growth Fund provided by the government and since 2016, there's close to around about 900 students who have benefited from courses and work experience through the Technology Centre. So quite significant opportunities created for young people in particular, helping them to, I guess, establish a foot within some of those key stem environments that are not only big within Oxfordshire, but globally, we've only had to look at the last couple of years to see how important science and technology is to not not just the economy, but to everyone really, quality of life, humanity. Absolutely. I would also just add another programme that we've invested in our social contract programme, which we launched around about six, nine months ago, there's a programme in there or part of the programme called Ox Grow, which is an online mentoring scheme. We're trying to connect business leaders from within Oxfordshire, with those people who are finding it challenging to get back into the workplace, partly driven by COVID, but also a whole number of different personal situations that they might find themselves in. So that online scheme is in place to provide mentoring, to provide guidance and confidence really, for the people who, who might feel isolated and unable to really earn a living. So those business volunteers have been huge to the success of the initial startup of Ox Grow and that's an area of work that we want to continue. Howard Bentham 36:26 And do you have any thoughts on what Rob saying there? I mean, for me, as a former teacher, education is a key part of the solution. Andy Edwards 36:33 Yeah, undoubtedly, and I think, but it sits within a kind of package of support that allows for a shifting of power and allows for a shifting fundamentally of the resources that are available and so it's great, but you know, we just want to see lots more investment going into places that are generating social outcomes and allowing communities to kind of do it for themselves, rather than being constantly reliant on small amounts of handouts. Howard Bentham 36:59 So let's sum up there, on the short to medium term, how can we level up better locally, in Oxfordshire? Are we doing enough to create opportunities for all communities here? And if you've got your top three things you're going to fix as soon as you walk out of the studio, what would it be? Andy Edwards 37:17 Yeah, big questions. Well, high level, you've heard me say, you know, shift the ownership, shift the access to space and change the narrative, but sort of, more specifically, there are really great campaigns and initiatives that are starting to take root and, you know, ideally, you just give them all the momentum and resources that they need to kind of fly. So if you're in particular, first of all, you know, kind of understanding of who owns land in Britain, there's a brilliant book called Who Owns England, there's a fantastic project called Who Owns Oxford. It is so opaque to understand, you know, who owns and we know how unequal it is, we were talking before about how less than 1% of the population owns over half the land in our country, we don't even know how to grapple with the problem or fully understand the problem if we don't have all the information at our fingertips. So first of all, make it totally publicly accessible and transparent, understand who owns the land, and then start to get behind some of these new campaigns for putting power genuinely in community hands. So there's a kind of Community Power Act, the power to change driving at the moment, which would unlock all kinds of mechanisms, community right to build, community right to buy, putting genuine power and tools and these tools that we're talking about into communities hands, so they can sort of do it for themselves and then we're really pleased to be part of an initiative called Platform Places, which is developing sort of network, again, it's around packages, sort of expertise, people really knowledgeable in the sector of placemaking, urban design property, and some funders, drawing those people together to help communities take control of their high streets, and we'd love to see, you know, platform places kind of just fly this year, they were set up last year, starting to gain some traction and that's where, you know, we're not trying to see the asset owners, the landlords as the bad guys. We're trying to see how we can work together to ultimately sort of deliver on the social outcomes that all of us want to see and need to see. Howard Bentham 39:12 Fascinating stuff. How do people get in touch Andy, you will have inspired a lot of people from what you've been talking about for the last half an hour or so. How can they find you? How can they get access to some of these spaces? Andy Edwards 39:24 Yeah, sure. Yep. Come find us on socials on the website makespaceoxford.org yeah, we've just launched four new hubs spaces in Didcot, Abingdon, Wantage and Oxford City Centre and we have spaces available. So if you're interested in a workspace that is more than just the space itself, it's an opportunity to connect with like-minded individuals trying to make their neighbourhoods a better place then get in touch and look at our website for upcoming space opportunities. Howard Bentham 39:51 Andy Edwards, thank you very much. Thanks also to Rob Panting from OxLEP too, and thank you for listening to OxTalks. This is the first podcast in the series, and we hope you'll be tuning in to more over the coming weeks. Find us where you normally get your podcasts from and do tell your friends or colleagues, please feel free to share your thoughts and suggestions on our social media channels. But it'd be good to hear from you. Remember, business support in Oxfordshire is just an email or a phone call away. The OxLEP Business Support Tool can signpost you to expert help in just a matter of minutes. It is worth taking a look. find it on our website, oxfordshirelep.com. So do tune in again to the series where we'll be discussing amongst other things, how to retain talent, adopting new tech and how ESG can enhance your business. But for now, from the OxLEP team, and from me, Howard Bentham it's goodbye.