Reflecting on Founder Mode

Okay. So this is not a hot take. This is a little bit of a cold take. Yes. In that, we are talking about something that was very hot 2 weeks ago.

That's right.

We we've been on a 2 week hiatus, and, you are our last episode. It was a RFT episode coming in from Italy, which is great. Or so so the image that you generated said so I got confirmation on that one. But the, and then the the Internet kinda melted down that next weekend over to this Paul Graham piece. Yeah. Founder Mode.

Yeah. I I can confess, I was a little glad we had a hiatus, like, that that piece came out. You wrote a nice blog post. Other folks were chatting about it. I was glad for a moment that we'd have to talk

about it. Okay. We're obviously in a safe space. I was glad.

No way.

I was glad. I was glad. I thought, like, I was glad because I'm just like, I need to get on with my life. This thing has, like, this piece hit just hits a lot of nerves. Oh, boy.

Yeah. Indicator of hot take-dness or whatever.

Hot takenness. Like an indicator of like, we got a lot of discussion going, but people aren't actually reading the underlying article. I always thought that was like super elegant. And but this this case, it was getting a lot of like, a lot of comments, a lot of up votes. And so this thing is going and going. I mean, I read it. I'm like, don't think about it. Don't think about it. Don't think about it. Still thinking about it.

I probably would Like dialed down a little bit?

Dialed down a little bit. Yeah. Dialed that a little bit. Not, you know, not, hugely, but I think dialed that I mean, I also alright. So you're abroad when you read the piece. Yes. And what is your take on on the piece other than, like, thank God we're not recording tomorrow?

I mean, first I mean, first three reactions were thank God we're not recording tomorrow. And And they got

our own brain next week.

And you're saying and you saying, like, you didn't want to talk about it. Man, I I was like, I'm just gonna mute notifications in case Brian DMs me or something. I'm just I'm off the grid. It it felt, so so Paul Graham's piece felt so non specific that it was going to be inevitably used as a justification for founders to do whatever they wanted. Yeah.

Yeah. I and I I I think the one thing I will say in Graham's defense is he anticipates this a little bit. Okay. He indicates that be he's like the in one of the footnotes in particular, what I have I I have another less optimistic prediction. As soon as the concept of founder mode becomes established, little did you know that this would happen within, like, literal minutes of this thing getting out there, people will start misusing it.

Yeah. I mean, sort of. I don't know.

I we're we're like we're in like the mirror neuron empathy preschool over here with Silicon Valley. You gotta be like, good job, Paul Graham. Good job. Can everyone be a little can everyone give Paul a round of applause for his active empathy? Okay. No. Sam, stop it. No. Elon. Elon. You'll get back here. Hey. Get back. I do think it's interesting that Elon did you see the the list of people that reviewed this place, including Elon Musk?

Reviewed the article before he before he posted it? Yes. No. I did not see that list.

Yes. Thanks to Brian Chesky, fine. Patrick Collison, fine. Ron Conway, fine. Jessica Livingston, makes sense. Elon Musk Wait. Yeah. Alright. Good. And I like, what are Elon Musk's comments?

Yeah. I I mean Probably copy editing.

Is it just it's like got another typo. Like, is there any is there anything substantive? Do you have any substantive complaints? It's just like, that's a very close read. No. I think we're thinking of our comments for one another

on any document.

We're both guilty of it. That's right. That's fair. So, yeah, I was very surprised that that Paul that, that Elon Musk and I, again, I would love to know where is Elon Musk like, I don't know. Like, don't you feel it needs more Nazi in here? Just feels like

Just 10%.

I'm just like I'm just like it's just a joke. I mean, that sounds those jokes are funny. It's that I I I who knows? I don't know. But so I I think that that was good that he anticipated that. But so we should so describe, like, the piece in terms of, like, what Graham like, what is the dichotomy that Graham sees? Because I mean, ultimately, this is reductive and it generates this galactic dichotomy between founder mode and manager mode. And there was nothing in the middle.

Yeah, I mean, the term manager mode feels like so it's like, so easy. It's like, easily pejorative. You know what I mean? Oh, it's super easy pejorative. Yes. Like managers are the enemy. So it's like, do you want to be manager? And that as much as founder mode is such like a great, mean nothing aphorism that you could use to, like, potentially justify behavior, management mode is such like a just just such a burn. Right? It is such a burn.

oh, nice management mode there.

Yeah. Be like, oh, like, never mind. Like, I'm leaving.

Oh, I'd say, hey. Let's go. I'll go into management mode here. Adam wants us to go into management mode. So everybody give a status update because apparently that's what we need to do. We're in management mode now. I know. It just it feels very dismissive. Yeah. And it feels dismissive, dismissive of expertise and which I think and again, it creates this kind of false dichotomy around expertise. That, like, expertise is tautologically not founder mode. Spot on.

And I think that, I'm sure you've seen this from VCs, like, there's so little, weight often put on experience and expertise and and and the past. And, like, I've talked to VCs who say, you know, I I only wanna work with founders who can kind of conjure things from first principles. And I think there is something valuable to that. Right? There is something valuable to saying, I'm just gonna educate myself on a topic, But it's just so dismissive of everything that came before.

there's another pejorative that's in the kind of Silicon Valley VC Lexicon of the first adult.

No. That's totally that's that's right. Right? It was kind of first adult mold, but but the the almost to a person, the CTO would kind of describe the role as like, we've got this cake. I enjoy eating cake but mostly I like eating frosting so I'm gonna lick off all the frosting and then I thought you as the first adult would enjoy eating the rest of the cake.

It would be like someone's gotta someone's gotta lick the frosting. Right? And someone's gotta do something with the rest of this thing.

I don't really and so

is this like okay. I think this role is being foisted upon you. I don't think you're totally bought in to this role.

And, William, that that the buying in process was clearly them saying, like, you'll still be able to gorge yourself on frosting. Don't worry. Right. You only like the frosting. And I remember this one company in particular, Plaid, where the founders talked to me, young guys.

Oh, God.

And no, they were great. They were fantastic. They were like, we want to hire people who can help us see around corners. Like, we don't wanna have to be like, encounter every mistake, the hard way.

That is great. Yeah.

Like, we wanna we wanna learn from the mistakes other folks have made, and I I just found it to be so like, so terrific.

I would say the Collison Brothers are similar in that regard. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

They they were they kind of surprisingly like, seeking wisdom out of others Yeah. I think is actually an it's unfortunate that it is so unusual a trade, especially in a company that's enjoyed some early success. Yeah. Because they are being kind of implicitly and and there this is the dichotomy that's that's created of, like, what we should be encouraging people to do is, like, seek out that wisdom and then make your own decision. Instead it's like, find an adult.

Grantham (thirty six:fifty seven): Well, I for me, it turned out very planned. Did did you know Actually, the way it turned out for well, well, Plaid turned out gangbusters. Right.

Exactly.

I mean, put that in I I think I've talked about my poor financial decisions in the past. It turned out, as I thought about it harder, I was just not interested in the problem space. Every engineer I spoke with there was meticulous about personal finances, loved it as a hobby almost.

That sounds like a great fit for no wait a minute that's not a great fit for me.

Well I was like, I've never balanced my checkbook. I only sort of know what that means to do as an activity. I I so I just realized that the problem space was not like not a good match.

So that you know that's a great that actually is really because that's actually, like, an honest story to tell yourself. Right? Because it's so tempting to be, like, god, I talked to those guys early. Like, they real we really wanted to make a connection. I walked away from it. It's a multi $1,000,000,000 company. I would be like a billionaire. It's like, well, no. Maybe you would be, like, bored, miserable, and would have left after 6 months.

Yeah. Or I would have fucked everything up. Or, like, actually, Platts on

a multibillion dollar company because it's run by

a guy who, like, hey, like,

the CTO doesn't know how to balance check plug. He only knows what that means in the abstract. Right? So, but interesting. So they were they were actually really actively seeking that. But I think it's a very unusual. Yeah.

You know, unusual, especially, like, I think these guys were in their late twenties at the time. Very unusual, I think. Yeah. Exactly. And I I was really impressed.

We should be encouraging that a lot more because I think that, like, the the big problem I mean, I had a couple of big problems with the piece, but the non specificity is, like, first among them of this is too reductive. And it's very important to remember that Paul Graham has started a successful company. It is called Y Combinator. Like, ViaWeb I'm sorry, we're just not going down to ViaWeb as a as a model for what companies should aspire to do. I and I think that the understand that most of of his perspective comes from starting Y Combinator.

Yeah. Yeah.

Where it can inhibit your own action. Like, you need to be there's a degree to which you have to be blind to the odds. Yeah. Certainly in a start up. Totally.

Well, it's so hard to to know that you're drawing the right lessons from success. Right? Like that Oh, for sure. Like that, you know, a couple companies ago, Delphix, we talked to lots of folks from VMware. Like, we were doing something virtualization related, and VMware was doing something virtualization related. There are lots of folks who were early, but not super early at VMware who drew all kinds of of of, like, weird result, like, inferences from their success.

Totally. Well and also, like, you don't want and as someone's saying in the chat, a lot of success is luck. And you it's hard for people to say, like, I was really goddamn lucky. Totally. I was in god, I was in the right place at the right time with the right idea, the right team.

Yeah. There's a great line in in that piece from Tim where he was talking about a interview with Michael Lewis, where Michael Lewis said, you don't know the book you've written until people tell you what they've read or something along those lines. And Is this stuff

a Sam Bankman Fried kind of moral to it? You know, I'd like to how is Michael Lewis, how is let's reflect back. So what book was that? What was the the

Well, let's go tell him.

The the hagiography you wrote hagiography or hagiography? I started to know on that one. I think it's hagiography. I think

that's right.

Alright. The hagiography that you accidentally wrote on Sam Bankman Fried, which I guess readers are telling you that's the

the the the book you wrote in that case. Yeah.

But, yeah, that's interesting that, like, that you don't I think that's right that you don't necessarily know.

Yeah. Even the culture you're creating, like, even the culture that we're creating here. Oh, for sure. Like, go go figure out how new employees experience it to understand, like, what what it actually looks like. Yes. Because even that has changed and you lose track of it over the years, like, what and and how it's practiced.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's very easy. So I think you gotta kinda keep that in mind when you're looking at Tim's piece. But all that said, I really like this.

was true. The specifics on that one also tickled Mabler. I I think it was that he was, you gotta fill the car with gas, but a road trip is not a tour of gas stations.

Which I really like, by the way.

It's delightful. And he was like, but people only heard that a road trip is not a tour of gas stations.

That's right. This is it's like, this is great. So we don't need to stop we're not stopping for gas at all.

No. No. No. No.

No. No. No. That's not what I said.

Listen to the whole thing.

Listen to the whole thing. Yeah. You're doing that thing you do again.

And if

you're only listening to half the story. Yeah. So I thought that was, was really interesting. I the the one I but I gotta say, and this is where the thing that was very influential for me, and this is like, I do think the positive of the founder mode piece, is his the second failure of that's not how it's that's how it's done, where he brings in a bunch of HR professionals Yeah. That and the thing it was essentially I and you might find this actually really hard to believe given the kind of the way the piece is written.

maybe we should be bringing in HR professionals like Tim says?

I did I definitely was wondering on things like performance review. And so that that that where it's like, I don't know, maybe. And the and then he kind of like hit and so he says, I, you know, I complained, but I eventually gave in. Yeah. I literally what you I mean, hand on heart.

Yeah. Totally. And and knowing when, you know, I think one of the dangers of just following expertise is that you're cargo culting, without understanding the rationale. Right? Like you are doing the things that are you're being told to do without understanding why whether they apply to your business, how they should apply.

Totally. Where you have something that worked well Yeah. And now is not working at all. Or, and not not understanding, like, why this thing worked so well. And it's like, well, maybe that was, like, incidental success.

I mean, I I think, like, something out of Silicon Valley, like,

it does sound like an episode of Silicon Valley is is of HBO Silicon Valley is founder of I don't think you like Beast Mode and Marshawn Lynch.

I mean,

is that, like am I the only one that, like, has a, like, a strong Beast Mode? Yeah. And I think that, you know, Paul Graham would dismiss that as a sports ball, so I don't think he would know who Marshawn Lynch is or who what Beast Mode is. But that you kinda have this idea of, like, founder mode is just not gonna accept any sort of negotiation or that That's right.

Absolutist. Absolutist.

Founder mode demands results,

and

it demands them now. And, I mean, that that's so that's kinda what prompted me to be like, alright. Can we undo some of the false dichotomy here? Yeah. And which I feel Tim's piece does, but I wanted to I mean, part of the what motivated me to write that write the oxide piece is I I wanted to also, I wanted did you click on my link for traumaturgical dyad? Of

course. Thank you. I wanted to see which specific Thank

you.

Simpsons reference, like, what what what frame of Oh, thank you. Of your Thank you.

Reference. I I felt underappreciated on dramaturgical dyad.

Where did you expect to get that appreciation?

I think right here, right now. So I

think I

got it. I think I got it. Actually, yeah, because you were traveling.

You were out.

So I was like, why? Yeah. No. I I just got it, actually. I got it. I don't think anyone.

Yeah. I I was I I mean, it is a narrow joke. I mean, I just I didn't know. I didn't know.

I'd appreciate that. I felt like it was an audience of like 5. And I don't know who the other 4 people are actually know who are the No, it's you and Dave.

That's right. Dave. Steven. I mean, they're Who? I can think of who would get it. I'm not

sure they're gonna read the article. You know, they're not gonna read the article. Do you know who would get that? It's actually, my kids. Not Tobin, but but my my 17 year old and my 12 year old are are scholars of the early.

Yeah. And you're like, hey, kids. New blog post from dad.

I knew blog post from dad. I, you know, I didn't do that. I but, you know, I haven't done everything wrong. This is one of those moments when they, when I think

did read it, they would get it.

They did read it. Yeah. They will this is where I've done other things wrong that I'm not gonna read the blog entry, But I do think that the that Steve Jobs and like Steve Jobs and John Scully is the dramaturgical diet of Silicon Valley. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, this is like the Tom and Jerry. Yeah. This is and I feel like that is really reductive.

Totally. Especially because as we know as we've talked about years ago on the show, like, Steve Jobs, I think is not fully understood or appreciated in in terms of, like, how he operated when when he succeeded and when he failed.

I'd absolutely. And I mean, again, like, the question that I am dying to ask the dead Steve Jobs is what was the influence of NeXT on your return to Apple?

Absolutely.

Because I feel like Steve Jobs and the Next Big Thing was such an I mean, such an outstanding spotlight on this long period of history, 11 years. And, you know, I know we've talked about it before. I think it's an amazing book. I love the fact that that book is written when he's left for dead. Mhmm.

Good. Good. Good. For all for all

it's worth. But I I so I I felt that, like, we we kinda need to break that one apart. And I do feel that I mean, again, said it before, but, boy, mandatory reading on Jobs. You just can't stop with the with the Isaacson bio. You really you really have to dig deeper on that guy.

Yeah. In in terms of what you were saying about experience, you know, I just feel like these reductive views of Sculley versus Jobs or founder mode versus management mode, you want founders who are thoughtful. And sort of also good at ignoring things, I mean, I think one of the spoke I think briefly to this kind of notion of paralysis. If you're like, I wanna get all of these things right, it's impossible.

Yes. I can

get any of them right. So you need to take short hands for some of the short some of the short hands are, I'm gonna do it my way arbitrarily, I'm gonna do it the way that it's always been done arbitrarily. Right. Not that either of those is correct, but then focusing on the ones that are key to your business, and they're taking a blend of, like, what you think is right for your business, but then learning from experience. Totally. And actually, this

is where I gotta say, Paul Graham and Steve Jobs, I mean, I'm glad we're talking about them in kind of a single episode because they are to me, they are both they're complicated for me. Paul Graham is actually complicated for me. Paul Graham is not I I mean, Elon Musk is not complicated. Sam Altman is not complicated for me. Paul Graham is complicated for me because he's not always he's definitely not always wrong.

And I think yeah. I mean the other side of it of like this won't scale when we're 10 people, a 100 people, a 1000 people. They have been in those arguments. I remember one in particular where, you know, there was a cranky customer. They weren't getting the performance they wanted out of the thing we had sold them. Like, well, what if we just give them enough of the thing that we sold them to meet their performance needs? Not at oxide, by the way.

Cherish customers of oxide.

To be clear. And, also, like, it was a software product, so, like, giving them twice as much was, like, sort of, like, mine or whatever. Right. And and someone started freaking out about revenue recognition when we're a public company. This is a company, by the way, that never went public. Right. This is a company that acquired got acquired, like, 10 years after this conversation by private equity. Private equity. Right. But, you know, you know, being able to say, like, yes, this doesn't scale.

Right. When I think and this is where it is really important to figure out, like, what are what what are the kind of

the hard rules of the road.

Yeah. And and I feel like, you know, we have to spell that out very explicitly at Oxide in part because of our experience having not where that's not clearly spelled out. And where where founder mode moves into things that are, like, pretty shady. You know, where because you get things like look. I I understand what you're saying about complying with the law, but we'll and we'll do that.

Yeah, absolutely. And to be clear, like, when I was talking about re recognizing revenue, I'm not talking about, like, cooking the books. But there's a difference between, like, cooking the books and, like, how you're backdating revenue in a public fashion and, like, you know, the this was, like, all totally above board. Right. People were just Sorry. Concerned about the, you know, what the future would look like.

What the future would look like. Right? And also, like, what kind of precedent are we setting and so on. It's like, it doesn't actually matter. We've got, like, we need to Totally. Like, let's let's let's make it another day here.

Let's make them happy. And, like Right. Right. Right. And how can we make these customers happy?

So another thing that you had mentioned is, like, that it is kind of this funky dichotomy is that you, as a startup, you're being encouraged to kind of to do things that are iconoclastic. Yeah. And then immediately defer to, like, LinkedIn wisdom. Like, wisdom, like, from the resume. Totally.

Yeah. I I remember at at at Delphix, you know, I joined this company. It was, like, 20 people at the time. At first, you know, it was the 1st startup, I'd been at. And what I found really startling was the degree to which when we were hiring people, we wanted to see people who had done that exact thing, like, 2 or 3 times.

Right. Forgot the drive that did I don't wanna do it again. Kind of bored by it. Also, like, I didn't do that. I was at that company when it was done. And yes, I was the EVP of sales when but, like, actually, I didn't actually grow revenue myself. I I was merely, like, in the building when that happened.

Yeah.

And, by the way, like, oh, I need and I you know, we've talked about this in

the past, but definitely one of

the things that we lived and I think a lot of startups live is where they are you take on this expertise from your go to market function in particular, and you take on an EVP of sales coming from an established company. Mhmm. And then they need their whole organization to come with them in order to be successful. And the all of that just, like, adds to the burn. And then you as a founder realize too late, like, wait a minute. This this is I I made a huge, huge, huge mistake here.

Yeah. I mean, it's a very expensive mistake. And it's like, it's a big bet. Maybe it's the right bet. But, you know, if that person and that team and that other company match things up really well, if it doesn't match up, if it's if it's sort of surface level similarities, then you've just onboarded a big team, And, you know, it's it's gonna take a lot of money to then undo that.

Yeah. And I gotta say, when people talk about in particular, the things that they've done. So they, you know, I I it's on my resume. I was at this company for those years. And I can kind of make arbitrary claims that aren't really fact checked.

I mean, I do think there is there can be for founders in particular. There's, like, there can be pressure from the board. The pressure from the board is hire someone who is an expert in this domain to derisk the company, this this thing that I'm I've put a bunch of money into. Part of that is the whole, you hire and retain search firm, they go and find the people, and plugging someone in. So then after you as a company have spent money on the search and money on an expensive person, then you feel really misled.

That's right. And this is where Okay. I found the turn of phrase in Graham's piece. In practice, judging from the report of founder after founder, what this often turns out to mean is, hire professional fakers and let them drive the company into the ground. So that's the professional fakers. It's this turn of phrase there. And the thing that I think Graham does a disservice to is he blames the fakers. Yeah. Fine. He does not blame the founders.

Totally. To some degree, I feel like the fakers may be the least culpable.

Absolutely.

Because I don't think faker I mean, maybe this is naive, but I think most people are basically honest, or try to be, and good people. I think there are very few people who try to represent themselves as one thing to get into a startup, get underpaid and get some stock compensation, and then try to tank the company. None of that makes sense. Like, I think the I think, by and large, although I can I can think of some examples?

Right now, I'm like, I know I'm trying to get all of the many, many examples. I'm thinking of that. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Fine. Let's do it. No. Let's go with what you're saying. Absolutely.

Yeah. I remember in particular, there's one example who was was telling me they could sell all this stuff, at previous company, and they were going to be amazing. And I, they I saw that they had worked with you when I asked I was clearly this person. This person doesn't tell a 100% truth, but I'm not sure it's 100% false either.

Oh, yes.

And I think I think you told me it was like closer to 99.8% false. But you're right. There was like 0.2% true.

It is 0.2% true, like,

but this is like a rare, a fairly relatively rare example of someone who's actually like a flim flam man. I think mostly people show up thinking that they that they did the thing, that they can do it again, that it's

a good fit, and Because the the success taught them nothing.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right.

Because they were there. They They were there when the success happened. Like, why would it not be due to their hard work? It's like, well, it's more complicated than that. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. Right. I mean, it is falsehoods that they're promoting. So like, maybe liars is fine. Right. But like, they they don't they don't I mean, to to some degree, like, everyone believes their own story. And it's up to you, the founders, the board, the folks interviewing these folks to to figure out, like, what's true

and what's not. That's right. That's right.

Especially, like, that's true of every hire to some degree. Like, everyone comes in, you know, sort of, like, with with some degree of divergence from from reality. Like, for for a lot of people, it's small. For some people, it's bigger, whatever. But, like, especially for a high leverage for, like, a key role in the company when you're hiring, like, VP of whatever. You gotta be careful. Like, you gotta be just just faith and experience is not enough.

Faith and experience is not enough. And I do think I mean, I mean, I've said this many times before. I'll say it many times again. Team formation is the most expensive most important thing you one does at a company.

Yeah.

And you need to spend a lot of time. And I think too many people are like, wow, the recruiter handed me these four names. So that's those are the names.

Yeah.

It's like, what's your rubric for, you know, you are hiring someone in a domain in which you currently have no one. What's your rubric? And, you know, one of the things that I've always found and again, this is like the specificity that Graham's piece is totally missing of, like, how do you add there are people who are superlative people who can help you out as a founder. You don't need to go to founder mode for everything. Like, you actually do need people who can add a lot to you.

Yeah. I mean, that's what you'd hope that you can get from your board. And sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't, but some but whether it's directly or plugging you into other founders or other leaders to help educate yourself.

And this is something again, I'm not sure people see it and it sounds like it's true to the Platt founders as well, but this is what the Colson Brothers did well. Like, I wanna actually I'm curious to understand. And like at one point, Patrick reached out to me. Dude, he was like, what should I be looking for in a VP of engineering? I'm not I'm not trying to hire you.

Like, and not get it as the answer. Right? Like, what they say is not the answer, but it's it's part of what goes into the the calculation.

That's a very good point. Because I do think one of the challenges is like, what of the idiosyncratic, iconoclastic things you're doing, like, how much of that is really important versus not? I'm gonna give you a very concrete example. We had a, an early investor in the company who, in an early conversation, an early board meeting, I might have brought up the podcast. Mention the podcast.

Totally. For sure. And I think that, like, too often we just kind of ignore ignore the perspectives. Especially as you say, when you're hiring into domains that were previously not needed at the company. When you're Yeah. You're hiring your first person in in support. When you're, you know, hiring your first program manager, your first product manager, whatever? So I think we talked

I can't really talk about this on the hiring podcast or not. But, you know, one thing that we do is when we're hiring a new role, we go to the person that we know just in our kind of extended world is like, this is the person who I can't hire, but I really look up to in this role. And I want them to look at the materials that we're gonna that I want them to look at the portfolio. And we, a bunch of times we've gotten, I mean, just extremely good suggestions about things to add to the portfolio of work. It's been really, really valuable.

Totally.

Because that's informed the rubric. Yeah. Also more than once, one of those people have been like, actually,

I might be working for you insurance.

I don't know you turkeys.

Right.

So that that can happen too. But I think that that is definitely important to seek that out. And, again, this is what kinda Graham doesn't get to. The other thing that okay. Like, as long as we're can I talk about some other things that just drove me nuts in the space? I mean or do you want to just know? No. And the the idea of, like, the idea that he has created some new element in the lab. You know, the idea that he has discovered some heretofore unknown super alloy. Right.

The the the the sort of, like, mystical reverence that he speaks

for. Exactly. Like and, you know, in the future, we will understand founder mode. But now, we just have a complete mystery. It's like it's a complete mystery to you, pal. Like, the rest of us are out here, like, running companies. I've got some

thoughts on this one. Bro, it's not dark energy. Right?

He's not he's really not. It is really not. So I think that was that was also a little bit ridiculous, that the it's like, okay. But I actually also feel that, like, there wasn't so I felt that was, like, annoying, but I felt there was little in this that was completely wrong. Yeah. Other than, like, the false dichotomy that it leaves you with. I don't know.

I mean, I feel like the false dichotomy is fairly central. Yeah.

I am already realizing, like, I am over my skis, and I'm defending this piece way too much. But but I think, you know what?

I'm glad that, like, we we had this cooling off period. Right? To to not to not just go into the hot take of of, you know, founder versus management mode, but think, like, there there is there's, like, a a kernel of wisdom and certainly the kernel of a discussion here about, like, when do you value experience and whatnot. So And I think actually for that, I

do think that so he references Brian Chesky's talk Yeah. That was given at Y Combinator. So that one we didn't see. Right? But Chesky was been on a couple of the other interviewed a couple of other places talking about his experience at Airbnb. Yeah. And I felt it was much more interesting to go. Did you did you listen to I I Yeah. You sent me a

link to, to that YouTube video. We'll we'll keep that in the show notes. And I watched, like, the first 45 minutes or something of it. I thought it was great. Like, I thought that, what I heard from him was he sort of, like, deferred too much to folks.

Right. It's like, oh, he said he wasn't a micromanager. I said, no.

He was just in the details. He said he was just holding your fingers as you type. That's right.

It's not micromanaging you. You can move that finger. I think. Okay. Not bad example. I can't move that. I mean,

as long as you do it the wrong way. That's right. I mean, who knows how it plays on the ground? But I thought there certainly, you know, as a founder, as a leader, there's this fear of losing control, this fear of when I hire someone and I want them to feel responsible. I want them to be able to operate with autonomy.

Well, I think one of the things he says in that that I actually like, because I'm like, what would I do to Paul Graham's piece to make it less divisive, less of a false dichotomy? One of the things that he says there is like people want clarity. Yeah. And often that is what they I mean, that to me is what splits the difference. It's like, you've got terrific people that you've hired, you wanna empower.

Yeah. That's a that's a great point.

And and I think it is really important because I think that, like, also if you've got an organization in which you foster trust, that clarity is super helpful, I think, to people.

Yeah.

Where it's like, oh, we oh, okay. Our like, we really this sale to this customer is really important for our quarter, or, like, this feature is there is being weighed. Oh, I get it. Okay. That's why this is important.

That's a great point. Because like, I think there is a people like to provide autonomy, or at least it sounds nice, right? Like, I trust the person I can provide autonomy. But if you don't show them what true north is, yes, then everyone will try to figure it out, and they'll figure it out a little bit differently, and you're not gonna be happy with the results.

That's right. And you kinda have to, like, show them what that's exactly right. And I do think that, like, autonomy is I mean, I and maybe this is where you get to, like, my own individual style or our style at Oxide. Autonomy's great. It's just in terms of, like, if people have that clarity because I think, like, how many times at Oxide have we seen something unanticipated that is delightful that happens Yeah.

So so our sales folks can, like, get off the call with the customer and create their own demo environment.

Right. And the and then using drop shot and and you're using all the things that we had built to go through this. I just like, that was great. Totally. And I just felt like that is where people were like, no, no. I can see that this needs to be done. And I'm just like, I'm empowered to go do it, so I'm just gonna go do it.

Yeah. No. I it was great. I I think that's great. I think the I think, when there's, like, autonomy without, as as strong a sense of, like, true north, you can get people unclear about prioritization, right? Like, right, with so many things, especially at a startup.

Yes. When

it's like, I actually for for any given task, there's no owner, right? Like, there's there.

Yes. Like, there are lots

of It's not that everyone's standing shoulder to shoulder and like everything, everyone has their lane. Like, For any given task, there might be no owner. So knowing which of the 25 things I could do should I prioritize? And how does that tie to what the objectives are? And when objectives are changing as they will, like, how do I know, like, it's fine that I'm still, like, doing this other thing?

Right. And I do think it's, like, it's really important that that leadership founders offer that clarity on priorities and are and then are gonna have to deal with some tough questions. I'm, like, okay. These 2 can't both be the top priority. Right. Because, like, I'm sorry. I'm asking like, we we actually are gonna have to like and find a way to stack these. One of these has to be more important than the other. Sorry. They can't.

I think I have. Yeah. I'm not sure that I'd be able to define it.

That this is like a seagull like a seagull. It like swoops in, shits all over everything, and takes off.

And Feels your french fry.

Yeah. And it it sues your french fry. And a 100% sues your

french fry or, like, my,

you know, you've met my my sister's got that, like, that her hair looks like nesting material to birds. It's like, we're to the point where we just need to acknowledge it and, like, she needs to Wear a hat. Wear a hat or some sort of protective headdress because there's something about I don't know what it is. I mean, you know, I mean, obviously, she's my younger sister, so I kinda thought she was exaggerating. But, like, over the years, I've come to accept, like, no.

You're right. This is Does she listen to the podcast?

I I wanna find out, and I don't wanna ask her about I She's so busy. I just don't wanna ask her, so I figured this is really the the best way to find out was really to just, you know, denigrate her on here and see if she listens to it or not. But, no, it's on no denigration at all. Quite quite quite the contrary. She has got she's got a condition that that that needs to be, I honor her condition or challenges in life.

than that.

You know what I mean? It's where this kind of like false sense of autonomy where you let me you let us together as a team develop a solution for this, and now you've descended in and like ripped it up. And now, it's like, boy, that's that corrosive.

Yeah. You you know, this is actually, almost exactly the pathology at my wife's last job for her that caused her to leave. And part of the what led to it Did she listen to the podcast? I guess we're gonna find

Oh, a 100%. Got

the answer

on that one. Maybe 99.8 percent now. We'll see.

But, sorry, even the baseball one. But, that came about in her organization because of growth. Growth where

Yeah.

Leaders previously did have the bandwidth to have the level of involvement that they wanted to be able to be comfortable with all these programs. And then as the organization grew, they didn't have the time to do it. They didn't have the bandwidth to do it. There was too much stuff going on, and they had not taken the lesson that that they needed to, like, change the way that they interacted with some of these priorities.

This is a good segue to Camille's piece. Yeah. Camille Fournier wrote a piece that I that was a pretty interesting in in reaction to this, founders create managers, and I'll drop a link into that in the chat, which I think is I mean, is kind of what you're saying is that, like, founders created the chaos that created the situate like, founders are creating the situation effectively. And which I think, I mean, in terms of, like, they are you wanna be a details person.

Right. And you don't know the right way to let go of those details.

Yeah. And it's and this is where, you know, see because I was and part of what kinda prompted the the longer blog entry too is I was noodling on, like, how do you do this? How does one do this? How do we do this? And And when he said this, what do you mean? I mean, how do you keep kind of a true north to an organization as it gets larger?

Yeah.

Where leadership gets divorced from the details, and all of a sudden, you you've got a great blog entry from years ago, I am not a resource. And to me, that is what indicative of this problem where it's like, these have now become a pick blocks that I can kinda move around and I've lost track of, like, why things are hard, why they take long, and I it's it's now schedule over everything. I've now over promised to a customer because I've lost track of the details that make this difficult. And now when my team doesn't deliver, I blame the team. And just like, you you you're in this loop that I think is a a loop that is really, really corrosive.

You know, a buddy of mine, said of, like, as he was ascending the ranks at a bigger company, he said, you know, the more you get promoted, like, the roads tend toward CFO, like all roles of CFO, which I thought which I thought was such a great insight. And because his point was, you know, you you start losing the ability to be involved with projects at a level of detail that matters. Yeah. And all you really get to do is pull the levers of, like, who gets money, who gets staffing, like, those are the kinds of things that you have control over.

Well, and what Jesse Jesse points out, I think rightfully, is that, like, in the absence of other things, especially where where influence is being used, and especially in an organization where people do value autonomy, like, things can get political. Yeah. When they talk about shadow hierarchy and things like that where and so the the thing that I as I was kinda like reflecting on this, I'm like, you know, how do we do this? And I do think like, man, the written word is real I mean, dovetails for our episode from last time on an RFPs, but the written word is really, really important in terms of broadcast. I mean, I I mean, god, I'm so thankful, and I should like, there's a bell I should ring every time this happens where a, you know, maybe a prospective investor or a customer, someone asks something about an issue that I'm not I'm not up to speed on.

Right. You know, the creative fire drill where you say, hey. Do I have to create a fire drill?

Hey, everybody. I know exactly what our thinking is on this. I know exactly what we've thought about. Where I mean, it's like, boy, am I really, really, really grateful for it. And I think that, like, Amazon is famously does this too. I've never worked at AWS or Amazon, but famously has a writing intensive culture

Yeah.

Where you're kinda sitting down and reading for the first half of the meeting.

Yeah. I kinda love that.

Like, where you I love that too.

Where I mean, first, my understanding is that, like, people write a memo of, like, 5 pages or something. I think that's, like, of of a fairly prescribed length. And then people sit down in the meeting. They read it. I guess they, like, raise their pencils when they're done or whatever and and discuss it. Slowly, like, the hands go up. Like, god. My I got the slowest reader in here. Like, oh, boy. I know I had you come 15 minutes early.

I don't wanna sorry to Yeah. As one of our colleagues who was formerly of AWS, and I'm like, pretty sure the last innovative thing they did was Lambda. That was in, like, 2015. But I think that certainly when the Bezos led company Yeah. They would write the press release before working. And I think they're like, that's an interesting way to get ground truth and clarity. It's a press release, so but it's a you know, but in terms of, like, getting that true north and getting that on paper Yeah.

Okay. I'm gonna go to a deep cut here. Another place where we read about this.

Yes. This is one of

our favorite books by Dave Hitz. Oh. Out of castrated bull. He talked about Does he? Writing the future history. The future history. Now, dear listener, do not purchase this book.

It is too late. How do you how do you pass this is like don't look up, but how do you tell presumably, people don't even know who Dave Hitz is.

Founder of NetApp. Anyway, terrible, terrible autobiography. I feel comfortable saying this now. But but we do we

feel totally comfortable? Not fully comfortable. I think we should feel fully comfortable.

Alright.

I I think we should feel fully comfortable. Alright. I think we should feel fully comfortable. I think this is this is a this is a great story. You know who I my sister does not listen to the podcast. I don't think she might. Your wife, you say a 100%, I think it's unlikely she listens to the podcast. Dave hits 0% listens does not listen to the podcast.

Okay. Says I. Let's go.

Okay. So Dave Hits writes this book, How to Castrate a Bull.

That's right. We were at FishWorks at the time.

We were at FishWorks. We were at a NetApp competitor.

That's right. We we were we were built we were, you know, trying to build a product to to compete directly with NetApp.

So Yes. And what we had heard from customers is like, I love the product, I hate the price. Yeah. And I'm I'm kinda not in love with the company. Like, the company is very self important. Yeah. But I do love the product. And, someone in the chat says, I have a signed copy of Dave Hitz's book. And and you, you are not

the only one with a signed copy. Alone. You are not I also have a signed copy.

So so how what is

the genesis of this? So first of all, we we wanted this book. We we the team at Fishworks. Now, Oxide is thrifty. Fishworks was cheap. And so we we were gonna pay, like, the $18 or whatever of those books.

So and you're sure this is not the point of principle of not wanting to line his pockets by

I mean, it's like

I mean, we have said that I undercurrent of this episode is success teaches you nothing. The subtitle of this book is how success taught me nothing by Dave Hitts.

That's pretty much right. So, I contacted the publisher. I used true but misleading statements about how I might wanna teach a class.

You feel like you're reading are you reading from a prepared statement right now?

Yeah. I need my lawyer printed.

That's right.

I'm not gonna go pro se on this one. So, we got a copy. And then, actually, you know, I don't know if you know this, but the, like, the FedEx got delayed or something, and I sent, like, a nasty gram to the public servant. So they sent us 2 copies. So we have 2 copies.

I did not realize that. Yeah. Oh, god. It's like, wow, this person is very hot. No. You're saying your, true but misleading things, did they involve the fact that you'd be that you needed a review copy?

I think by this time, it was out, But I I I just I I think I I needed a copy of it.

We needed a copy, obviously, and you're not gonna pay for it. Okay.

You're not gonna pay for it. Right. So, so I read it. I started reading it, and it was terrible.

And And you're reading it out loud, reading passages out loud.

Right. We would bring it in. So what we started writing a

fan block. I started writing When? Where's the germ of this idea? It's such a good idea.

I think I think first of all, we were, it was like a distraction from our ping pong variant. So we needed something else to do with that other than working on the product. So Great. I I think we felt like this personality was someone who was so susceptible to praise that Joshua

Jay (zero fifty seven:fifty seven): That's kind of my recollection too, is that I feel that this is a consequence of us reading the Big Con. I'm sure

I read it. Joshua Jay (zero fifty seven:fifty

seven): The No, the Big Con, terrific book. The sting is based on the Big Con, or the book

written on the

thirties about the Argo of the grift. Alright. Oh, such a good book. And the Big Con, one of the things that it repeats over again is you can only con a greedy man. And I think I do recall us thinking like there is a kind of an ego con here. That if you praise someone who is already praising themselves, you're not gonna get fact checked.

You can only ego con a v in person.

You can only ego con a v in person.

Yes. So so I as as my persona, Dave Lightman.

Dave Lightman. I will will leave it to others to figure out the the Dave Lightman.

Genesis. Yeah.

Yeah. It's not Dave Lightman. I mean, I feel I feel like that's a good homework assignment if you don't recognize the name Dave Lightman. I feel you should.

Not in the notes.

Not in the notes.

That's right. Not in the notes. That's that's a little that's a homework assignment. That's a good one. So Dave Lightman wrote a, chapter by chapter review, like overly praising, sort of, in embodying, like, much too much of do you have a link? I will I will find the link. Can you

find the link now? I can talk about something else while you find the link. That's like because I I just feel that we need to first of all, it should be said that you wrote the fan blog, but what so one of the things we figured out, I don't know if we knew he was gonna pay attention to it or not. It became clear that he was hanging on every word, every word. Like, he was commenting on the fan blog. So at that point, it's like, oh my god. We got them. Oh, god bless you. God bless you, Blogspot.

Yeah. Oh. Blogspot. Sign of the times that it's on Blogspot.

Okay. So the at what point do the lawyers

Oh, that's right. So the I took the design of the blog, like, from the NetApp blog. So like Gone. Gone. Yes. So I made it I made it look exactly like the NetApp blog of the time,

Like a NetApp fan blog. So he so he you've written the the first summary about, like, this book is awesome, and I cannot wait to read it. I'm really, really excited to read it.

That's right. And, and then we did I did get some sort of, like, email from the lawyers saying, like, you can't have a fan like, maybe it was like an email from Dave Hitt. I can't remember. You know, yeah, it looks like it looks like it was. So email from Dave Hitt saying, like, love the blog. Gotta change the way it looks. Like, our our lawyers are pretty sure you can't just, like, rip off the look and feel of the NetApp blog.

And when does our persona's mother enter as a kind of a I mean

Well, so pretty early. Chapter 1, Dave hits as I mean, spoiler for for everyone, but please, again, do not read this book. Like, he starts I mean, I'll give you my copy. Seriously. Just hit me up. He starts the the the book, with the advice, like, never listen to your mother. Right. That was, like, chapter 1, I think it might have been the title of chapter 1 or something. Right. It was just like, God, that's he's just putting the ball

on the tee for you.

Just just bait. So Right. So then, you know, I, you know, my, my persona here, like, talks about like, owning up his mother. Jay Gould (3seven forty seven): Oh, it's

like, thank God, fun is some finding getting some good advice from an adult. That's right.

So, so yeah, and late, later, later on the big reveal at the end was like, sometimes listen to your mother or something. I think that was, like, in in one of the later chapters.

When he at some point has, like, a comment on your blog being, like, god, I don't wanna, like, I don't wanna give it away, but don't take that. Because you made it very clear that, like, you've taken that advice very literally. And have have maybe said some things to your mother that you maybe you should maybe you might might live to regret. That's right. So okay.

I mean, just euphoria. I mean, I don't know. I like, when you when I mean, it's so it's so sophomoric too, but just like- It's so great. We've launched this little piece of cheese out of the internet. The fact that the mouse is just googling away and just chopping And then

the mouse is just pounding on the door, demanding more cheese. It's like, oh, god. Yes. Absolutely. And we, so then and so it's you got you've got the the the the NetApp. You've got trade dress, I believe, would be the term. May even be the term from the letter they sent you. That the that Print out that letter. So they send you basically a cease and desist.

That's right.

And then you have, which I just think is like, we're like, God, like, just another gift from these people. So you have your nonstop lawyer's log entry. Yeah. Which I mean, it was just, it was

it was delightful. I just I do wanna, yeah. I just wanna observe, like, you you actually wrote some of these entries, and I can't remember which ones, but, just to throw you into the bus with me.

Oh, I will definitely be under the bus with you because when I

and like the Federalist Papers. Future generations will What what did John Jay write this entry? Right. Was it Alexander Hamilton? Was this a Madison?

Was it Madison? We can't know. We can't know. For this for the for this entry of the of the nonstop hits dotblogspot.com. I can't believe the site is still up.

I can't believe Blogspot is still like a a domain that resolves. So, anyway, short story long, so I I did meet Dave Hitz. I I got him to to sign my copy of the book.

Okay. Wait wait a minute. You get the note from the lawyers, and then you change the blog entry to be all NetApp trade dress. You remember this? That you change it to be like Oh. Just like the all like the Dave hits eyes. That's right.

It was just like his eyes everywhere. Yeah.

It yeah. So you got him to sign the book.

Got him got him to sign the book. I said, you know, my buddy can't make it, Dave Lightman, would just sign it for him. And he said, what's the name of his blog again? And it was I mean, it's it speaks volumes that this was sort of, like, the pinnacle of my pranking. I don't know. Like, it was just it it was just it was so funny to me. I just, like, I could not stop. It is funny.

And and anyone should be suspicious of a fan blog. I'm sorry. You should be like, I I would like to believe that we would not fall for this. Yeah. And but here it's like people are like, all those people pacing for the podcast? No. Give you all this or all this for Frankie. It was Dave hits. That was Dave hits. It was great.

you wrote the future histories. Right? That that that one of the practices at NetApp that I remember from a very careful reading of this book was this book.

There has never been a more careful reading of not of How to Cast Straight a Bull. A 100% true. I mean, we poured over it like a book club. Like Talmudic Scholars, we poured over that. Every diphthong, every syllable, we I mean, we were No one has read that book. I mean, it's like in the end, Dave hits, when you encounter this this podcast and you're upset, should you be upset? No one read that book more closely than we did. No.

We were the biggest fans. We we

we are the biggest fans. I still In in some regards, we are the biggest fans.

I still have that copy. It's got notes from at least half a dozen people in the margins. Yeah.

It's like, yes. It's our it's we're it's our ironic detachment. We're we're we're we're exers. What do you want? That's all we have. That's all we have. That's all we have. Leave us with our ironic attachment. Okay. But he's so he Oh, there's just

one one one post script I wanna mention on this. So, we were brought in for you and I, or rather, NetApp sues Son. Son sues NetApp. Yes. This is sort of a thing. You may recall.

Oh my god. Yeah. Huge lawsuit.

And you were brought in you you you you had a delightful deposition. I was brought in for a deposition as well. And I confess that I was worried.

I was worried that you were I did not know this. I I had forgotten that you were depoed in that case. Yeah.

I was depoed on the case.

Why do I I mean, they were depoing me for stupid reasons. Why were they depoing you?

I've been done a bunch of work in In CFS. In CFS. Like in and stuff like that. In fact, they they, they took my That's true.

They actually should do it, but demo you versus me.

There you go. They took my notebooks and discovery and, like, like good luck with that. Right? Like that was literally page 1 of the notebook was this whole description about how we were going to do raid z expansion. So I'm like, Oh, dang. Like if I just put

it on page 2, you would have never found it. Right. Right.

So I'm in this deposition thinking, like, if they're like, mister Leventhal, do you have a blog? I'd be like, yes. Also, I need a break right now.

I need a break. I used

to talk to my lawyers. Right.

Mister Leventhal, is the name Dave Lightman familiar to you?

It is familiar to me.

It is familiar. It is a pop culture reference as I understand it. That is great. So you were a little bit worried?

Well, you know, did you have a game plan?

What we get what are we gonna do? Like, this goes to non stop hit stopblogspot.com. Like,

like fake a Hargan attack. Just just do anything like because you know when you go into a deposition You're talking

to a lawyer. I'd like to declare the 5th. It's like that's not you can't do that. This is not a criminal proceedings. You can't declare the 5th.

When you go into a deposition, you know, you're supposed to basically tell your lawyer everything. Right? You should. They should, like, because they're your

Tell Sun's lawyers? No. Oh, my god. You should have. No. Oh, you should have. They would have they would have died laughing. Of course. Oh, my god. They would have died laughing. They would have though though I loved working with the lawyers in that case. They would have loved it. Oh, they would have eaten it up.

Anyway, I I just I was like

It's unclear if we had committed any like, I don't even know what we did wrong, actually.

Let's not go there. There we go. Anyway, did tell the lawyers I was waiting until the the lawyers needed to know, and then I was gonna tell them in a, you know, fake heart attack.

In a fake heart attack. You're just like, hey. DM me with sunlight. It's like, I'm fine. I'm closer. I have a lot to tell you. I have a lot to tell you. Right. I have a fake block. You're like, what is going on? These guys, you know, maybe I suffer in cheers. Okay. But so he talks about future histories. There you go.

Bring it all back.

Bring it all back. And is this, like, this idea of, like, writing down what we have what we're going to do? Yeah.

It's like, what do you want the press release? What what do you want success to look like? Right. Like, sitting here from the beginning, sitting here from the inception of the idea, what do you want it to look like at the end? What does what's the story you want to be

able to tell? And writing all that down. Exactly. That is extremely valuable, I think.

Yeah. Totally. Who knows if they did it? But it's a neat idea.

It's a neat idea. And I do think, I mean, I think the the written I do think the written word is really, really, really important. Yeah. And I think that the because when you write, you do like, you have to get to a ground truth. Yeah.

I think Here's what I'm gonna say, you know, a little Oxway critique. Yeah. If you'll forgive me. Like, I think there are some things that we don't write down that, oh, 100% down. That maybe that, like, not only should be written down.

Right. Yeah.

And I think even having the discussion, even having the rationale for why we do or don't do things Yes. I think it's important. And and Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, the other thing I'd say is that, like

I mean, god, are you are you trying to, like do you have a bet with some other oxen blades? Like, I bet I can get him to write an r f d on performance review.

Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. That's

Mayday. Mayday. That's right. Wait a minute. Are are you having chest pains right now?

What's wrong?

I need my lawyer. That's right. Come closer. Dude, that's interesting. When I think that we yes. In terms of, like, the the offering that clarity.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I and,

Well, because I think I love it when people are like, I love this company because you've written everything down. And we're like, no. No. There's a lot that's not written down. Yeah.

And I think sometimes it's like maybe sometimes shouldn't be written down because, like, you know, we talked about our discussion of which chat program to use. Like, obviously, that's way too volatile to write down.

You can't write that. You can't some things you need to leave unsaid. Exactly. It's just too much of a lightning rod, but no. I think I think you're right in terms of like there are things like that. And actually, you know, I honestly I think there's some things, and this is where I've I've really benefited. I mean, this is where you kinda benefit from just the sense of collaboration anyway. Because, I mean, how many RFPs have you written because someone has said you should write an RFP on that?

Like most of them.

Right. Where it looks like so in other words, you're thinking of something that, like, okay, I'm just like ideating Yeah. And I don't think this needs to be written down. That's you know, I'm just thinking about it that like, that concretely. Yeah.

right. That's right.

But those are maybe those are the things you should be writing down.

Yeah. And it's a good point that you make that that's the way we, like communicate those kinds of things. Like that's that that is how our culture gets codified. Yeah. And that's what's good for everyone, right?

That's right.

Or whatever.

Or people coming in being, like, misleading about or or, you know, I mean, you have I mean, certainly, you know, seen this in past lives where people are I mean, God forbid, you have someone who's telling different people different things.

Yeah. Right. Where if you've got it written down, like, you can only tell one story. Right?

You can only tell one story. And that is it's really, really important. And I think that, like and sometimes they're not even telling different people different things deliberately. They are don't or they don't or people are hearing different things, and and they don't realize that people are hearing different things. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And and you know what? Maybe it amended trust and clarity are everything. Because I think Yeah. Absent trust and absent clarity, you can spend a lot of cycles inefficiently. Yes. Worrying about whether you're doing the right things, worrying if you are how you're being judged by your peers, like working inefficiently. I think it it consumes a lot of of caloric budget as you might say. When you're unclear That's not

a me thing. Some people say caloric budget. Do they not? No. This is like bought over the year. I, like, I assume everyone said bought over the year, and then I googled it and I'm like, no one's using bought over the year. There are no. There are that's just, like, just me. I'd how many things are like that? A caloric budget is like that.

I think so. People can people can correct it from a That one, I guess.

But deafening silence, but there's no no real corrections forthcoming from the chat over here. Yeah. You're right. Damn it. Another intervention. Another podcast, another intervention. There you go. So, yeah, sorry. Clerk budget as I might say. As you might say,

no, I just mean people spend a lot like lack of certainty. I mean, I think it's one thing to say, hey, don't worry about all this other stuff. Just focus on this thing. Yeah. Like people worry about that other stuff.

Yeah. But even just

being able to have get those out of their system, let them ignore them. Like, let them move on past them and and just kinda wash their hands of those ideas and move on to the things that did matter.

Yeah. Interesting. Well yeah. And I think if you called it clarity plus trust mode, it's like, I don't know. That feels like work. Yeah. I I'd I think I'd rather go into founder mode. Founder mode sounds a lot more fun. It sounds a little more like prince Adam becoming He Man.

No. That's right. You're right. Like, founder mode is definitely more like, you know, waving your scepter and zapping folks as opposed to, like, listening to them and wondering what they're about. And, also, I gotta tell you,

I hear clarity mode and trust mode. I just feel slow, and I wanna move fast. And I wanna I wanna move fast, and I wanna break things. Makes sense. Like and trust in clarity mode. Take my money. Makes sense. But I think it it is worth listening to to the the the the Brian Chesky.

Yeah.

Because I think that that it was helpful to get that kinda from the source. Yeah. And then, like, get as much as possible from the source, I would say, is part of, like, even if it's Dave hits, as it turns out, like, there you go. Nugget of wisdom.

Right there.

Right? A a a, as as Dennis Ritchie said in his anti forward to the UNIX Haters Handbook, it is an undigested nugget of nutrition in what is other otherwise a fecal pie. I just felt that was like, you wanna take for 8 a super. Oh, it's absolutely a keeper. Dennis Ritchie, rest in peace. But this this is something to be a good discussion, I feel.

Yeah. Turns out. Who knew? We we we get Paul Graham. Thank you,

Paul Graham. We got to we got to not

in the pod probably.

In the pod along with the yeah. Exactly. Paul Graham and Dave hits listen to this together. It's one of their, like, weekly things that they like to do.

They're, like, guilty little pleasures.

What are their guilty little pleasures? Exactly. Well, the I this is it. I I know this was a cold take, but I know this is fun. Yeah. That, Yeah.

I'm I'm glad we took a little more of a of a lukewarm take on this one. Because I I think, like, there there's something there, something worth discussing. And, like, you know, my knee jerk on this was, like, not as as helpful.

And I think it's like it'd be and there is something there because I think that the problem is real and the question is, like, how do you how do you build how do you build trust? How do you offer clarity to a team? Like, that's the challenge. And it's like the way to do that is not to go into seagull mode. Yeah. Cantina mode. Alright. Well, this has been great. It's great to, great to be off for a little hiatus. Although, maybe this is a good little cooling off period we have.

Good. I'll do more international travel. Sounds good to me. Exactly. It feels like

we're more likely to read the tweet in this case too. Alright. It was fun, and we will, we'll see everyone next time. Thanks, everybody.

Thanks. Did not see nonstop itself. We're

still here. It is. Adam, did not see nonstop that's coming up. I believe it.