OxF 2024 Wrap-Up

I have raised my hand.

Good. Well done. I

come up here without having raised my hand. Is that right? According to you?

Yeah. I've never raised my hand once in my life. Just got something to say. I just say it. In fact, it's a common comment

on my report cards at elementary school,

actually. Exactly.

It came up a lot in the parent teacher conference. I'm stoked for this.

Me too. Have you

our last episode of the year. Yeah. This could be fun.

Have you been binging, our back catalog?

A little bit. I've been binging the back catalog. I've been listening well, I so, do we wanna break with tradition and and give the subject right at the top? I mean,

I Oh, yeah. I mean, I that is that is one of my notes to ourselves that I've been taking while listening to episodes. So why don't we go ahead? That that sounds fun.

Okay. Let's experiment with that. So the, this came out of our episode, with Adam on of the chain of changelock fame. And the, Adam had pointed out that in the changelog, they, they actually do a year end wrap up episode. So I was asking him, how do you point people to episodes? How do you find the the episodes to point people? And he says, we always recommend that people go to these year end wrap up episodes. And we thought, that's a very good idea. So here we are. Here we are.

I'm sorry. That's too critical.

He recommended the, change log dance party. Do you recall this?

I do remember this. Yes.

And the, are you getting echo from me?

No. Are you getting echo from me?

I am yeah. I am getting echo. Just a second.

Ugh.

You may I'm just going a little slightly insane. Is that possible?

This is a good time of year for it. It's okay. That's you

know what? Fine. Done. Sorry. The, he had so he recommended this changelog dance party to us. Yes. And we, my daughter and I were, we're doing a a menial holiday task, namely, stuffing holiday cards. And I thought, you know, this is a this is a perfect opportunity for this, like, this changelog work music. And so I I put on changelog dance party for my daughter, and, her facial expression is hard to capture, but she said, it's giving old people. Have you heard giving as a No.

translate it.

This is like it is giving me the vibes. I see. And, she's like, yeah. This is this is giving old people. So I'm like, okay.

Well, there was one piece of advice that Adam Stokovic did give us that we slash you have not followed up on, which is the BRAKEmaster cylinder intro for,

for, yeah, I have not. I'm I'm intimidated actually to do that. Is that.

I just gotta get over it because like

I've got I just gotta get over it. Yeah. I I don't know. I just feel that I I don't know. I I, I I feel the break you know, because I I listen to so much BRAKE MASTER Cylinder and Reply All, and I I in so did you listen to some of the beats that break master cylinder made for the people that called in to changelog?

Yes. And that reminded me how you haven't followed up with with Adam for the intro to break master cylinder. Like, what's the worst that happens? He's like, look. I listened to a couple episodes, and I don't think you guys need me. Like, what I mean, what's what what's, like, the failure mode here that he just says, you know, giving old people when he listens to the episode and and that's the feedback we get? I guess that is pretty bad. Maybe don't ask him.

I yeah. I'm a little bit worried about that. I'm a little I'm just intimidated by that. I I just I I feel like also, I think we're beneath them. Is that not I'm I just feel like you don't don't you have, like, much more serious podcasts to go to? I I just feel like there are many more anyway, I just feel No way. Yeah. I I'm intimidated

by it.

I'm intimidated. No. I'm just intimidated.

Alright. Well, our our commitment to you, the listener, is that Brian will follow-up on this offer.

Okay.

Alright. Feel comfortable making that commitment.

I need to do it. You're right. So I'm I Do it. And you know what? It it it is it is my pledge to you. Okay. So how do we wanna do this? Because we've got, we don't have Breakmaster Cylinder, so we can't do what ChangeLog did, where they had Breakmaster Cylinder create these amazing beef for people. Right. So

I think how I would suggest topics. I think we have a couple of topic areas.

Are we not gonna talk about kind of the elephant in the room? I thought we were the okay. So I feel because when we were listening to changelog, they were talking about how much they agonize over the titles of the episode.

They were talking about that. And I was like

We don't we don't have that problem. That's not what we agonize over.

No. But what I would say, I I I was like, oh, cool. Like, cool idea. I'm gonna look back on my favorite titles of the year. And I did that. Did you do that?

This feels like an intervention again.

I just feel like our titles are fine. Like, our titles are, a little

off the nose.

Yes. Very, very descriptive.

I like our tie I think our titles are fine, actually. I think our titles listen, our titles just like do a job. They go to work. They patch pack a lunch pail. Nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. These are good, honest titles.

The the jobs to be done framework for titles. I'm with you.

I think RTO or GTFO is a good title.

Yes. No. That actually, that is a good title. That's a very good title. Okay. It it that is a very good title. I liked Intel after Gelsinger, I guess, concise, but also, kinda nail on the coffin.

God, someone does have to win 2nd place here. And I don't know who,

you know, by I think, bottom of the bat you know, in season in 1 or something like that, we did a episode that was that was, I'll say, actually pretty good about, supporting, systems that kinda look like UNIX or appliance sized and so forth. And the episode title is, like, I know this or something. It's awful title for a pretty good episode.

It is that is an awful title.

We have a

Yeah. Okay. But okay. Why is that an awful title? I agree

with you.

That's an awful title. Why is that an awful title?

Because I see where you're

going. Because because people have

no idea what the episode is about. I'm with you. Yes.

Don't don't look at your lawyer. Why is that an awful title? Because because you have

no idea what it's about.

You've got no idea what it's about.

And Like our episode this season called what's taking so long.

Like our episode this season, what's taking so long? Yeah. That I actually think is still better than I know this because it's also a Jurassic Park reference, which is it feels like

Yes.

It feels like it's an so I okay. That's a exactly. That's about and it's like it's a reference. It's a cultural reference. You got no idea. I I actually think I like the descriptive titles. I gotta tell you. I think the descriptive titles are, you know, pragmatic LOM usage with Nicholas Carlini. What I mean, that's wait. What what do you want?

good always a good gift for the man who has everything?

It is always a good gift. But so but I think that the the Pragmatic LM usage with Nicholas Carlini is a good example of a good title. So I think we've got and we put all of that title energy into the image.

Into the image. And you know what? I I know This is what

I'm getting to.

I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna throw out my shoulder patting myself on the back on this. But looking back on our year of images, we had some good images. Preston Pysh

(zero zero six:fifty six): You were on your game. And I think that so this is what I meant by the elephant in the room. I think that the people do not see the hidden, the craft, the angst, the agony, the mastery of what you do with the images. Doctor.

Joe Sopcich Yeah. Sometimes I just take a whole week off of work just to think about the image.

Doctor. Joe Sopcich I think only in the case that you write a multi part blog entry about what you've done complete with links to source code, do people have any idea? So I would like you to rank your images for the year. What is it? I mean, it feels like your top image. I mean, and again, we we don't need to stack rank them, although that would also be kind of interesting. But, what were some of the images that really showcase?

Obviously, like, the XC image, I loved. Like, so

The XC image is unbelievable.

And, what what will surprise, maybe everyone except for you, Brian, is, like, how much self doubt I had over the concept. Like, I went back and looked at our chat messages. Yeah. Oh, yeah. If you go back and look at our chat messages, you you probably were, like, in a meeting, and I was like, hey.

thing, which is, like, I if, like, if that sounds burdensome to you, I don't you you feel like you have to do that. Yeah. Completely unrelated with you. Yeah. No. I was really not trying to

say No. No. So I so I just I mean, again, it's like you gotta you gotta understand my self doubt going into this. So the the the image is I thought I'm gonna take this x you know, we're talking about the XE backdoor with Andres Freud, which is just a a really fun episode. I was so I would I mean, amazed kind of Brian that, not, like, right coming out of his interview with Kevin Roos of the New York Times, you were able to score this great interview.

A classic xkcd.

Totally. And, thinking, okay, cool. Like, let me remove that block and see what happens. And so I I plugged I was like, I think this will be a really neat image. I plugged into JetGPT. JetGPT gave me something totally unusable. And I went you know, I feel like I do this a bunch with Chat gpt. Like, again, maybe surprising, surprising everyone. It's for you, Brian. But I like, when Chat gpt is very wrong, I just keep at it.

is a

two dimensional image. I'm like, Chad GPT. You have given me a three-dimensional image. Like, I don't I don't know how to like, we're we're kind of at loggerheads. And then I've had Chad GPT say, like, basically, let's agree to disagree. Like, just kind of using its managerial techniques to to get me to back off.

It's I

think we're wrapping the musicals.

Yeah. We we really need to, no side conversations, please. If we could we're really pleased if we could stick to the we really need the time box this conversation. And

When when Chegg GPT is like, hey, do you know how much electricity I just burned, like, on this argument that you're intent on having with me? I'm like, listen, Chegg. Shit. Yeah.

Like, by the way, we're not gonna get any of that back. I mean, some of that is renewable, I guess. But, like, I mean, how much how much more dinosaur blood do you want me to do you want me to actually burn for this?

So then I, like, downloaded not one, but, like, several physics simulators. I finally got one to work. I think it's, like, built in Java. I, like, drew the thing. I, like, you know, got some image that looked okay, downloaded it to my son, Will's iPad, where he has an Apple pencil. And I, like, traced it with the Apple Pencil to get kind of the XKCD style back onto the computer. This is all, like, I think, like, during an all hands and stuff. Like, I'm trying not to

have this no. No. No. It was like He just made a business to this podcast. He may he may be a little bit.

I mean, yeah. During an all hands that I was hey. Look. I wasn't doing a crossword puzzle or something. You know?

Like Hey. Listen. It's true. That that's it's a real it's a real improvement.

Exactly. So and then it it just it came out great. I was really pleased with with how it worked out. So great, in fact, that I've seen it, like, used in in other people's podcasts, which was a little surprising. And then I got a little little uppity about, like, hey. How dare you steal our images? And then I looked at all of our other images, which is, like, mostly me stealing copyrighted material. So it's a little little late in the day for me to be complaining.

But that's number 1. We've got our own complaint. But the but I that was an amazing image. And one might say that what an obscene amount of work for the image. But I feel like I mean, that maybe it's a it's an outlier, but it's not an outlier by that much. I feel we've

It's a the image

Yeah. Yeah.

It's but it's also, like, if if it took an hour and a half, that would be a lot. Like, I think it's probably closer to an hour. So it really is like

that. That's actually amazing you did all that in an hour. I I because I mean, I think it is it is outstanding. I mean, it is it is really, but I think you were just on your game. You know what?

Well, I do have one favorite of my images, which

Are we gonna talk about the OpenAI boardroom brawl?

Oh, was that well, that was that was last year.

It was last year. It was last year. We got we got a little bit.

That one is great.

We we gotta have, like, some acceptance. The AI boardroom brawl, I love because it's all, like, 8 fingered people brawling.

Yes. Yes.

It was really, really quite good.

The What I like from this year was Yeah. Open source LLMs with Simon Willison, which also was that was a great get on your part again. Oh, god. But the image is, is like a a site like a robot reading the New York Times. And a big theme of that episode was, like the the provenance of the training data and like, look, this is all this copyrighted material.

And meanwhile, us violating the copyrights of of not just the New York Times, but, like, many people and actually generating this image. We're actually although maybe it's all reasonable use, but all fair use. But, yes, we are Yeah.

As and someone told us, they referred to they're they they told us our their child referred to this as Grand Theft Auto Complete, which I thought was awesome.

That is that's the man, that's is that a teenager?

Yeah. We yeah. We were there. We were at dtrace.com when, Alex was telling us that, I think.

Yeah. We gotta get that kid on the podcast. That's good stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what were some of the other we and we had how many, how many Simpsons references did we have this year? I think, actually, kinda like remarkably few almost.

In the images, I think I think none. Is that true? No way. No way.

Okay. Help me out. I can't no. No. That can't be none. I just would be very surprised if we had this self control. We had a, well, okay. So let let's talk about just a couple of them. We had the Tomax and Zaymott for the books in the box. Tomax and Seam Ott in the library. That was amazing.

That that when I found that one, I was pretty pretty pleased by that found find. The only Simpsons reference I remember is when there was one time when you and I were recording first of all, when we are in the same room recording, it is, like, a 1000% more twiddle twaddle. Like, it is, like, especially at the intro. And I took one of the, like, intros and made it into its own YouTube video. And, that did use a Simpsons reference, which was, like, the kett Brockman, with the cuckoo bird popping out of its head and with the technical difficulties, please stand by from the Simpsons, which is, like, just a hilarious image.

No, chefs. You're right. That is the only Simpsons reference we had this year. That's amazing. We've had we've had plenty in years past, but that is the only one this year.

Start to use them up. Oh, you know what? There's a there's a this is not our favorite one, but there's another one. You for the Adam Sikowiak episode, you took a selfie of yourself in the k. In the podcasting studio. And, annoyingly, you took it in portrait mode, and, really, I need the landscape mode. So I had AI kind of fill in the rest of it, and it made like

a Here, I thought the story was gonna go to any other delightful aspects of the selfie, of the fact that I

Got it. Really you really dolled yourself up for a podcast. I mean, you look just terrific.

It's from my Pied Piper shirt. Alright. So

Pied Piper shirt looks great. But it, like, invented a microphone stand that's not there and an arm that was definitely not holding it. And I don't know. It is it is kind of remarkable what it's capable of. So in the chat oh, oh, oh, oh,

the other image that come on, but we gotta have the the a couple others that we that we've gotta go, your because we joked about C SPAN for debugging in the cultural idiosyncrasies episode. Yes. So for the image that you really you envisioned what c span for debugging might look like. Yeah. And this is I I just felt masterful. I

think feel that way because I I felt like it you know, like, I felt like it was probably more work than the XC one, and I feel like it just did not land.

I felt like Oh, it did not land. No. I I it it knocked me out cold. It landed so much that I was just lying in the fetal position weeping. Just just no. I mean, just apart why the the the, like, the various subtle aspects of the craft on this one that I

I know I know all the subtle aspects. Like, I I am like, I poured my art and soul into it, and I just feel like when I even when I was looking at the podcast episode, I downloaded I listened to that episode, like, 3 days ago, and I was like, god, like, I worked so hard for this font that, like, you would have to break out the microscope to, like, understand this joke, I guess. And it looks like just me in front of a screen, like, squinting. Anyway.

Oh, it's much better than squinting because you've managed to catch yourself in the, like, absolute, like, dumbfounded look. I mean, the look is just like, what the hell is going on? It's a great look. I just and I love that you got, like, the C SPAN tagline for those just tuning in. We have mysterious data corruption and install program.

just really Well, obviously, like, I I nailed my audience of 1 on that one.

And, like, nailed your audience of 1.

Like, I it was one of these ones too where I was like, look, I'm in this deep. I've I've made the laptop, like, ghost image mask. I've been dorking with the opacity of that. Like, I'm not not posting this. Right? Like, I'm not I'm not just writing off this effort to 0. Like, that's going on the image.

No. We gotta get all

the way

through it. And I'm I am I was obviously I I I have been obviously insufficiently communicative about how the the the these masterpieces. Because I really do think that that they are. I mean, some of them are kind of like the logical thing of a screenshot, you know, like, that that makes sense. Totally.

the podcast. Yeah. I I

So I So I need to be the first one to tell because you well, because this is my hypothesis with this guy. That like and like, look, fine. Like, you won, I didn't like, we don't need to talk about whether yours is funnier than mine. Like, that's actually we don't need to have that discussion. It doesn't matter. Because I am convinced, hand on heart, that is not his best work. I think he's better too because I think he has got better ones that he submitted that didn't win.

I I love this idea too of, like, we find him. We Find us. Conjure up an idea for an episode where we're like, we are going to have an episode on, I don't know, accounting. And we we thought you'd be a great expert as a local. And then we kinda slow walk into, like, have you ever, you know, won a contest? I don't know. I just, I love like how we would get here in a subtle fashion.

You know, we kind of miss our opportunity to do it today because isn't today Festivus? Isn't it the airing of Grievous?

Joshua Foer: I didn't know. That would be a much better oxen in French tradition. Joshua

Foer: No. This is like the the Seinfeld bit. Right? Joshua Foer: Yes.

No. No. I know Festivus. I'm unfamiliar with its specific date. So

Joshua Foer: I believe it is the 23rd.

Joshua Foer: Okay.

Well, that's number. Is Festivus. And this would be an airing of the grievances for the maybe so maybe next year, we're gonna have the, the but but I thought this was, amazing that you actually found this. Okay.

Well, this one actually maybe even took more work also than the exe episode because not only to dig around and find it, I found, like, a very low res image then had to, like okay. And then I had to, so my mom has a New Yorker subscription. They have an archive and stuff like that. I don't know if you've been in this particular hell, but the, like, helping mom remember her password. But, like, it was may maybe just felt like it took 3 days, but, like, it it, it actually took 5 minutes, but it was it was, like, my least favorite brand of hell.

Well, because you also urgently need this password. This is extremely important. This is for the image on the podcast, which okay. So, actually, part of the reasons ends up being, like, somewhat high stress is that we are not I mean, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but we're kind of blocked getting the episode out until we have made it.

That is usually, like, the the gating factor. Like, I I definitely have had episodes that that kind of brought I put on the back burner for a couple of days while I noodled on the right image.

The right image or your mother's password for her New Yorker subscription. So I get

it's like It's like

It's like, why did he just get like, you're extremely upset with me for not remembering my password, and I'm trying to remember why you're so animated.

It's like, now, okay, tell me what the text message says. It's like, well, it says not to read it over text mess over the phone to anyone. Yeah.

Yeah. I past that part.

I'm not anyone. After that, what's it say?

After that, what does it say? So did you when you saw that image, hearing my description of it, were you like and then seeing the image, did you give me more or less credit when you saw that? Oh, we

just like I'm

like Okay. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. You kinda like

Your your grievance, your, like, decades long grievance is well founded. Was well founded and continues to

be well founded. Oh my god. Oh, that is I cannot I think I'm gonna I I think I'm gonna choke up here.

What do you get for the man who has everything?

You you you actually, you you you endorses grievances. You That's right. Thank you

so much. Chad says or the other the other other Josh says that as a citizen, New Haven has to mention the appreciation of the picture of the inside of the Beinecke rare book library for the RFD episode. And I was really pleased with that one too. As also as someone who grew born and raised in New Haven, as we were talking about, RFTs and, like, you know, I'm I was thinking of, like, what are these inch ancient tomes? And, of course, I grew up in a place where, you know, literal ancient tomes are collected.

an inside joke with yourself because you told me, like, I'm extremely proud of this one. And I'm like, I don't know what that is. What is that? I and but, you know, you you said it with such, like, authority that I was I was afraid to ask. I'm like, this is obviously this is obviously something I should know. This is clearly something that that is, an I y and I Feels

feels on brand to, like, not ex not read the tweet. So, yeah. So the Beinecke Rare Book Library is this amazing building in New Haven, and it is it houses these ancient ancient books, books that are like like, it's all humidity and temperature controlled and, like, they, you know, they only, I think, expose some books to environment every once in a while. And, the it's a very soft light in there so that it doesn't damage the books. And in fact, the whole building is composed of this, like, maybe centimeter thick, maybe less thick than that marble.

Yeah. Do you wanna talk about the pizza just for a second? Because I think if we you know, the thing I actually did listen to a couple of episodes and things that I thought we never brought up, we brought up multiple times. So Such as New Haven pizza. New Haven? Well, I mean, yeah. The New Haven pizza, the, the the the Munson Nixon line? Is that the

We did. We brought that up in the baseball episode.

I feel we brought that up a couple of times. Like, NBA's death has come up multiple times. It's just like there there are things that I felt like we are that are extremely obscure. They're like, okay. I actually brought that up. Sorry.

Again? Right?

Yeah. Jesus. God again with it. Oh, yeah. I get it. Like, MCA died. Fine. Like, the world moved on, pal. The okay. So can I ask you another question about, another image? Please. Because there's another image that you were like, no, this is the image. And I'm like, I I get it, but I think I don't get it, and I don't I

I Okay. You've got

such momentum here. So RT or or GTFO, you've got an image from

that, Prince.

I I know you do. And I can you I I I I also know a lot. So Why does it fit for this episode?

Okay. So to me, like, so, I think that's a good question. Maybe one should have asked beforehand before just telling you I loved it. So to me, this is the little prince off on his tiny moon, as I recall, like, being hitched to, a bunch of birds, like, carrying him back to Earth.

So I'm with you on all of that. I'm a 100%. I'm a I'm a yes yes yes on that.

Return to the office is like, okay, he's he's been working from home on his tiny planet, and now he's, like, being forced to go back to the office on his string of birds. I feel silly saying it out loud.

Oh, that's great. I I think it's great that you think it's great. I that is the I I I just the fact that you because you you like, look, some on some of these images, like, god, I don't know. Should it be like, is this a good is this a good idea? Isn't that and I'm like I think you got like, I think your ideas are are outstanding.

I I like You know, that's great. Sometimes I like sometimes, like, I mean, sometimes you just go, like, you know how it gets, like, when you are, like writing something or, or you, you start getting deeper and deeper. And like, sometimes you're like, have I just wandered up my own asshole? And, and sometimes that same feeling can be expressed in absolute confidence. And I think, like, that that this might be I've wandered up my asshole and this is perfect. No.

I was I I just wanna say because I'm actually a little I do not wanna chip away at any of that confidence because I think the confidence is great, And I love it. It's like this I love the absolute certainty of this. So it's good. I mean, it's like, I wasn't I mean, the answer is like, there's not something there's not another layer I was missing on this one, which is good.

There you go.

That's not that sounds like a criticism and it's not. I think it's great.

I still love it. Even though even though reading it, like, my justification out loud sounds like a prompt gone wrong.

Okay. The other one that I also just like just where you're just like just nails on the craft was unshrouding Turin, the chip.

Yeah. You know what? That felt easy. Like, that felt You

did that so fast and I thought it was just like I mean, I just like, what this guy is getting this guy's just he's at the top of his game.

He's at

the top of I'm watching a future hall of famer here just going to work. He's just making up That's that's

He says old school Photoshop. Like, that's like that No.

But he just like the the just like having the certainty about, like, no, we're gonna put the Shroud of Turin on tour on the on the tour in the park. I just thought it was it was it was great.

Yeah. Well, thank thank you. I felt like, I you know, that one I just felt like was was almost too on the nose. I don't I do love I so, you know, my complaint with Mastodon, which is, I mean, other than it being boring, which I'm I apparently, nobody gave me flack on that from from saying last week. So I

said it again. You I feel like I've been snared in the blue sky episode to, like, slagging on Mastodon where I clearly said that I love the idea of loving Stedan. Yes. And I gotten I like Mastodon is very, there's some folks who are upset on Mastodon. I yeah.

So so on this one

I'm just talking to you.

Someone on Mastodon was like, you know you know, the Shroud of Turin is actually a negative image and you've done a positive image. Like, yeah. It's like

What you are referring to as Linux. I call it new Linux.

I and I I just I I just loved that. I felt like that was a very Mastodon comment, and I appreciate it. Oh, I should also mention, you know, on the XDF image, someone I'm Mastodon was like, why didn't you just draw it by hand? Like, why why did you go through all the trouble of, like, plugging into a physics simulator and doing this and that and whatever?

I would just do the physical equation in my head and draw it by hand. Great. If I

wanna Why why so first of all, here's my free advice to everyone. Don't just like the the phrase why didn't you just you can just let leave that aside. You don't you don't even need to use that phrase ever again. So why didn't I just

do it?

Because I fucking can't. Because I don't know how to do that. I can't draw that. What are you talking about? I'm not that good. I I could barely trace it, like, on a screen without my hand shaking. So that's why I didn't just do that.

Also your image for adversarial machine learning, which was also my thought.

You know, I showed that to you. I remember my recollect. So it that one is I think during the episode, correct if I'm wrong, but we talked about, like, a LLM, kind of making subtle perturbations of, say, an image of flamingo until a classifier decides actually, it's not a flamingo. It's a bus.

Cool bus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Great episode. Nicholas Croini are one of our only guests, that we had twice in the year. Yeah. And then another great episode. Yeah.

So and so I decided to make a bus that looked like a flamingo. Right? Like a a kind of more on the nose. And I think I I remember being, like, you know, again, real proud of myself patting myself on the back, sending you the image, and you're like, Explain? I was like, remember? Yeah. Yeah.

That's No. I thought okay. I'll go look at

the receipts on that one. Yeah.

Yeah. You may wanna go get you the receipts. I may, I I feel that that I I thought well, I'd I'm gonna retcon myself into thinking that I was very strong and supportive from the start anyway, because I thought that was that's that's a very good image.

Thank

you. Yeah.

I I I like that one. A

lot a lot of very good images, I felt.

Well, I I mean, one more. Yep. One one more I enjoyed because it was kind of an extra callback. And so, episode's called innovation stagnation where, this this is the the genesis of read the tweet, I think. Or maybe there was other read the tweets. But It

is definitely, one where you're, like, pretty much shouting out, folks, read the tweets. I'm sorry. We did not read the tweet in innovation stagnation. You should always go back and edit that. So so Nate

Silver posted something. I'm not gonna read the tweet now, certainly. Dumbass. Posted something basically saying like, is innovation dead? Like innovation used to be faster. Like, remember the space shuttle or something. And now we just have, you know, new social networks, something like that. And that image is a cutout from Mystery Science Theater 3,000 pointing at the tweet. And I don't know about you, Byron. I loved, loved, loved Mystery Science Theater 3,000.

I I thought it was good. And that would it was one of our hot takes. So it was a good, that's what would be tempting. So one thing I did is actually went through our episodes and categorized them a little bit. Okay. And so I you know, and I'm taking, like, very, like, rough cuts, obviously. But that how many hot takes do you think so we had, 32 episodes in the year. How many of those do you think are hot? What what what and again, I'm, you know, I could put a wiggle in here.

I'm gonna put the line at 6a half?

What was that a number?

Yeah. 6a half? 6a half. Yeah. That's that's an over underline.

Okay. So I so, it'd be interesting to know I'm sure people in the chat are gonna be, like, you got, like, everything.

It's like a It's like over 40.

Over all day every day. So it is over. I so I've got it at 9. Okay. And being a little bit, maybe, a little bit too generous, I mean, certainly, that innovation stagnation one is a hot take.

Oh, for sure. But I've got,

like, open source LOMs with with Simon Wilson. I an episode that I'd lost That's

a hot take. That's, like, got a guest on it and everything.

You, dad. When when was the last time you will listen to that one?

It's been a minute. Okay.

You don't recall us having, basically, a witch trial for Kevin Roose for, like, the first five minutes of that thing doing outbound readings for that. It actually is not a witch trial because that that implies that he is somehow the victim in this. We just absolutely demolishing him for and you talking about we're reading this line aloud to your mother and I mean, this is, it it has got some hot take. Yeah. I feel that is that that that's got some hot take in it for sure.

I'm with you.

Do you do you do you remember what that one was about without any prompting?

I remember it being about Thud.

That is the Matt the Matt Assay thing where he falsely accused the No. Folks of going there. So we a more descriptive title would actually help there.

Yeah. Might have helped the the listener count as well.

But that one is that yeah. That one, I so okay. On we'll get to listener counts in a second. The and I counted, like, innovation tokens with charity majors. I I counted that as a hot take because

That big time hot take. Even when

Oh, no. No. It's okay. You're good with me on that one. Yeah. The CrowdStrike, the the BSOD fiasco, with Katie Musaurus, I counted that as a hot take.

Okay.

With our CockroachDB, it feels like a hot take. Yeah. Reflecting on founder mode is definitely a hot take even though it's 2 weeks out. Like, it is a cold hot take, but it's Yeah.

Absolutely a hot take. Tactic take. Yeah.

RTO or Gigi? I've anytime you're doing an out loud reading, you gotta say it's a hot take. So that's like RTO or GTFO is definitely a hot take. Right? Okay. That's obviously

That's right. Even though it had a you're right. A lot of these have guests, but just, like, you know, nice like, Andrew was on that show.

Andrew was on that show. Yes. A lot of them have guests, but are still hot takes.

Yeah.

The, I loved What I love about the RTL or GTFO, episode is when I'm reading from the mail that that Jassy has sent internally and you're like, wow. I got the worst email that you've I've ever heard of. Like, no. No. I've actually I've got 2 more paragraphs. It's like, you you can't possible like, no. I just reject that. And then until after Gelsinger, I think you also have to say it's a hot take. That's what happens to hot take. But, I mean so you're 9 ish.

Yeah. That's right. That's right. I think it's It wasn't the full 32. It wasn't the full catalog, but you're right. It's a good 3rd.

So about a third of our of our podcasts are, and then on, what what's your take on guests? On how how often do we have a guest?

I'd say probably 2 thirds of the time, so I'll say 20. We have some kinda guest. Right? Like, you know, I'm I'm gonna count, you know, when when Amdr joined us on, on RTR GTFO, for example.

As a guest. So I may have I may need to go count more carefully. I've got us at 15, counting that one. So I that that that I could be That

could be right. But we okay. Yeah. That could be right. I believe it.

But you know, it's kind of ridiculous because I'm I'm on the one hand, I am I I am, too intimidated to to approach BRAKE MASTER Cylinder. I think we've got we've gotten some really great guests. I I've I've got, like, no such intimidate when approaching some of these guests. We've had To

be clear, you've gotten some great guests. Like, you have done a terrific job this year of of grabbing some great folks.

Well, they and alright. So we let's talk about some of the great guests we've had with we've we've had, a bunch of them. I think, we got at the top, we got we gotta talk about Andres Frond and, his enormous generosity in terms of coming Dockside and Friends because of its low production values. This is what I loved about Andre. It's, like, took some of the pressure off that you guys, you know, are are such jokers. I mean,

in for I mean, he did, you know, show up with a tin can microphone, like, to his credit. Like, he really, like, took our

boat with us. How to do it. When in Rome, man, I know how to do this. Like, yeah. It's like, we're all about audio problems on this podcast. I thought it was, that was great, though. I mean, I felt it.

Oh, my god. So good. I mean, it was like Oh, good. It was such a great conversation. It was so enlightening to me personally, and just I felt really fortunate that that you got him, like, at that moment too. It was like it was something great to be yeah. It was like having the the the conversation that was everyone was having. It was great. That was a terrific one.

Yes. And, actually, it did we you know, wait a minute. That was where we got spun up on Kevin Mills.

That's right. That's right.

We got spun up on the on sorry. On the Simon Wilson one, we were spun up on the IEEE Spectrum article. We that was a hot take, but we were spun up on the IEEE Spectrum

article. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I didn't think our Kevin Roose hatred kind of bled over across episodes. But, you know, that was that was definitely

And that was in that is legitimately that is just disappointment in Kevin Roose, because I feel like he I feel he could do better. We feel like he could do better.

I even remember the line I was pissed about where he was, like Yes. Talking about, you know, Andre's works on Postgres, which is, like, too boring to understand. And if I tried to explain it to it, you'd be bored or whatever. Like, well, buddy, I don't know.

Bored to tears if I could explain it, which I can't.

So I don't know. Maybe you're a journalist and you could try. I don't know. Just just saying. Just spitballing here.

It's like you would die on the operating table if I gave if I gave you this open heart surgery, which I can't. It's like okay. What? Yeah. That doesn't look okay. That's not making sense. So Andres was a great I we talked about Simon Wilson. It was great. Nicholas Carlini, we talked about about, Nicholas on, Roger Codori. That was a that's, a great episode.

Oh, that's awesome. That's that's great to hear. It It was really great

to hear. Yeah. It was really interesting. I mean, and all all credit to Raja. I think he's, a really interesting guy. And I I mean, he's, has had such a, you know, an interesting career and is so, I think I feel so down to earth. I anyway, I was really grateful for Roger for joining us.

Yeah. And there we were talking about heterogeneous computing. I did love that, I think the the pitch that we had was answered, like, what's the difference between a CPU, GPU, FPG, and ASIC? And I think we, like, only sort of got there after 90 minutes. Like, I think we we drew some distinctions, but not all of them. But it was it was, to be clear, still great.

That you that's right. And that is a Rachel Stevens request. And, actually, that's a good point. So that that is kind of an episode that we did a little bit by request. Yeah. And then Raj had this great blog post. So, Katie Masaurus on the the Blue Screen Your Death Fiasco was, was amazing. Bridget listened to that one. Oh, nice. Yeah. I did you did you your family listened to any episodes?

My folks listened to the XZ episode.

Really? Okay.

And and enjoy well, because, you know, they had read about it with, Kevin Roose and everything. So the big New York Times fans over there. So

there was a lot of image. It wasn't just like, mom, you don't actually have to play the podcast. You just need to look at the image. The image is that

God. Can you imagine that conversation? If you think, like, recovering passwords is tough, like, how am I gonna explain, like, that image? That's yeah.

So they just they it was it was very it was very kinda current.

Yeah. The the other one that a family member, my dad listened to was, the baseball startup episode of the baseball episode with the founders of the Ballers, Paul and Brian. Not only did he listen to it, but he shared it with another person that we mentioned on the show. We mentioned my dad on the show, mentioned how growing up on the Munson Nixon line that he he forced friends who were wearing Yankees hats to leave them outside. But we also talked about

allowed people who wore Yankees hats to enter his house. Correct. Right.

Right. Just

the hats

need to stay outside.

Yeah. The hats need to stay outside. I mean, I feel like that is entirely I I just feel like, you know, you gotta give the right, you know, the right spin on this.

Yeah. Yeah. And then

On the muds and Nixon line, it can be this is, you know

It's a war zone, basically.

A war zone. Exactly.

And then we also mentioned, Bill George, the scorekeeper, for the longest game in baseball history. Also, my neighbor in Rhode Island, at our at our beach house, Rhode Island, and we we talked about him as well, and and he listened to the episode.

He listened to the which I that's just great. This and he this this is the longest game in history. This is, the Paw Sox.

That's right.

And the r RIP, the Paw Sox.

Yes. No longer there in Pawtucket. Now the Woo Sox.

They're now the Wusox.

Yeah. I

okay. And do they do they have the kind of the franchise continuity? I mean, is it like Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, Berlin is pretty small. You know, I think, like, if you lived in Pawtucket, you'd probably be a little little cranky, but, like, I don't know. It's, like, not that far.

Well, no. The the reason I said that is because I when I you and I saw a Paw Sox game together Yeah. At McCall Field?

It was- McCoy Stadium.

Yeah. McCoy Stadium. And I remember walking and being like, I hope that the longest game in baseball history is featured prominently somewhere in in this thing.

That is my hope. That is my hope. You're hoping you can find a little corner somewhere where they talk about turns out that is basically the theme. Like, if it were a theme restaurant, that would be the theme.

It is exactly right. And, in particular, what they have done is they have the box score that wraps around the entire like concourse

Yes.

For that. It was so impressive. And so I just hope that they've done that. I hope, the Woonsocket, I hope they have honored the destroyed history of Bill George. And I'm so the baseball episode, do we know what he thinks? What what do you what do you think of the baseball episode?

I mean, he said, yeah. Good. I don't know. I didn't ask for details. No. I don't know.

It's like, well, no. I will, Mike. I'll make a point.

Part where you said my name and how I wear the ring from the from the hall of fame. So yeah.

Okay. There you go.

I I don't know that it has inspired him to be a a a more consistent podcast listener, for example.

Okay. Well, we, because I mean, look. We know that that one I and I, I put that one in the category of potpourri.

I look we I love that we we had a episode called pork potpourri years ago.

We did. I love potpourri.

That was weird.

I love potpourri because I learned the word potpourri from Jeopardy, watching Jeopardy.

Makes sense.

Like, what is that? And I I so I learned about potpourri, the Jeopardy category before potpourri, the actual thing that it's named after. And we just, like I would love to know the history of that because that is such a weird pull when you are thinking of, like, you know, we need something that is that is, like, miscellaneous items. Miscellany? How do you pronounce that? I'm not I'm I'm afraid to Yeah. Miscellany? How do you pronounce that?

I don't know. Miscellany?

I should. Yeah. That sounds right. Ripped you into miscellany? Into saying that. I so anyway, the the you and you you go to potpourri? I mean, was Jeopardy the first one to use potpourri, the the the the mix wooded scent? What do you how do you how do you describe potpourri?

Yeah. Mixed wooded scent. I think that's I think that's good. I think

The They're

making LOL and proud.

Exactly. I wonder if Jeopardy anyway, Jeopardy, real pioneer there. Alright. So on the end, I I consider that to be potpourri. So I've got potpourri as our I I I can consider predictions potpourri. Maybe I shouldn't do that, but certainly the baseball episode, and then also, our the book club episode on how the how life works with and actually on the the spirit talking about our guest, Greg Cost. Yeah. I love that episode.

Yeah. Really good one.

And I know that the numbers are you know, the numbers reflect the fact that this is maybe outside our demographic a little bit. That we we've gone a little bit. And I think we know not to do this too frequently, but, we do like to do, you know, just do stuff a little bit different. Yeah.

For sure.

Mix up a little bit. And I would also say, you know, the other thing I did is I went through the and maybe this is just how much do the YouTube numbers track the I will I looked at the both the you know, with the with the transistor, which is how we kinda distribute the podcast. I mean, it's RSS, so it's very hard to reason about how much the stuff is actually downloaded, because it's, you know, the the value of an open Internet. With YouTube, you get a little more insight. I how much do the YouTube numbers kinda track that, do you think?

Not, like, not that closely. I don't know. Sometimes, like, sometimes they're ones that, like, crush on YouTube and are just sort of normal on, on podcasts. And then sometimes they they get a little, you know, picked up more on the podcast and less on YouTube. I don't I don't know that they're that consistent, or, like, there's that much correlation between the 2.

Yeah. So I was looking the one thing I did is I went through and looked at the up votes to view count ratio as just kind of like just, you know, just because, I mean, whether a thing is viewed by many people kinda depends on, like, you know, who picks it up and, you know, if it's

Totally.

If it's a hot topic, you know, I mean, that is obviously gonna be picked up by a bunch of folks. And, and so I I looked at that and it was, it was kind of interesting that our, the kind of the, in terms of the top episodes, our open source LLMs, Simon Wilson, and until after Gelsinger actually was the the number 2 in terms of, like, ratio of upvotes to to views. But then after that was, was our book club episode with great cost. So I think that, like, you know, I know that that and then in the 5th place was, The Baseball Startup. So people that listen to those episodes like those episodes or more likely to to hit the old upvote, on it.

The charity one, that that one has not, like, been picked up or whatever. Like, folks have not listened to that one as much as others, which was surprising to me because I think Charity is terrific. And that was a great conversation too, talking about, like Yeah. You know, being thoughtful about when you innovate. In fact, I would say that is a theme that I've discerned kind of doing my own binging of the podcast over the last week or so since we talked about doing this episode was, you know, talking about being thoughtful about what kinds of innovations you do and the benefits of of kinda those investments and and how it's okay to be weird, but maybe you shouldn't always be weird.

I thought it was a great conversation. No. I I I really, enjoyed that, and it was really I I felt the same way. And I think I also feel that, like, I I kinda deliberately went to some of the episodes that didn't get as much of attention, and why don't you just go relisten to them? And, like, we did not find a stinker in I mean, like, it's really good. Not to sorry to and I mean, total tribute to our guests than everyone else, but, it's it's really

quite miserable. I did come away feeling like we have unsurprisingly made the podcast that we wanted to listen to. Absolutely. I was I was going through a little back and forth with Transistor FM, our our podcast distribution platform, at first, because, like, their AI transcription software had some sort of weird hallucination where it imagined yeah. Like, in the transcription, it would drop in random names like it it thought Brian was whispering JP Morgan a couple of times.

Can we talk about jokes that we think are funny that I'm not sure anyone else finds funny?

Yes, please. I mean, maybe just jokes. You can be the the second part is not even necessary to qualify. I know,

and I've I I know I have mentioned this way too many times, but your Metapandese is never gonna not kill with you.

Yeah. You know what? I I even like, I met a former, she described herself as formerly a Facebook. And I said, did you leave Facebook, or did you leave Meta? And she said, well, technically

I I left for this going at all.

Technically, I met left Meta. And, of course, I was like, oh, does that make you a former Meta Mate? And then I did try to explain Matamates, the Greek philosopher. And can you imagine that sleigh is just as much in person at, like, a party where kids are playing in the next room as it does on the podcast.

Oh, I I can only imagine.

Only with me.

Oh, yes. And then and then you're like, no. No. But, actually, let me give you additional context. And I'll like, with this additional context, I'll it'll make it funnier. It's like, no. It's like

I mean, you know what I'll do. I mean, explaining always helps jokes in my experience.

Explaining always helps jokes. Exactly. I but I think that is, you know, we make not infrequent reference to it. And, I think it's very funny.

The one that I don't know the origin of, I can't remember when you dropped this, but, like, I I it still says is there were some, you I I think we're talking about, adversity being the, you know, spawning great innovation. And I think your insight at the time was that World War 2 was stressful. Yeah. And I do Yes. I do love that, like, every time you hear yourself say something that's sort of, like, knuckleheaded or, like, a facile observation, you're you kind of apropos of nothing. We'll say

that World War 2 is a stressful event.

Yeah. Exactly. Where I'm not like, I'm I I I just love that, like, a casual listener to the podcast is, like, pause and say, wait

a minute.

Did he just say

What's what's World War 2 video that I'm gonna do with it?

Like, what is this? World War 2 was a stressful event.

It obviously was.

Yes. I agree. World War 2 was a stressful event. I feel like many historians would agree with that statement.

We oh, we got find out I would like you find one historian that would disagree with that assertion, sir. Yeah. You need not be so indignant. It was a stressful event. I didn't know. But we just make reference of people like, what are you talking about? But it's true. We we we do make, we probably make 2 frequent reference to world war the the the the stress induced by world war 2.

The alleged stress of world war 2.

On the I just wanna make sure, I think, on just guests. Also, just it was very recent, but, Paul Frazee, last week was

Yeah. Paul was great.

Oh, that was great. Oh, that was really, really good. So I our our guests this year were and we all obviously, we talked about, Adam, and and that was a terrific conversation, albeit with the, the the dance music that's giving old people.

You know, we

we had,

Cynthia and Sarna on for the technical blogging episode.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. That was really fun.

I I also listening to parts of that, I realized I I was looking for some safe for work euphemisms and describe so it turned into a bit of you and me doing some either mutual back padding or a little group think or reinforcement bias or high five huddle is what GPT, Chad GPT suggested for, circle So, that's that's my that's my cleaned up version of that.

High five huddle feels like very lateral motion. That feels like you've not really I'm not sure you've gotten in I'm not sure you've broken into suitability for work on that one. I feel I think that

You're it's a little too a little too close.

Yeah. It's you're just you you gotta go further away. If if that if we're trying to get to work suitability, like, you're you you really need to get a little more of a running start than that one. Yeah. Yeah. So what did we I guess, we made reference to that in

No. No. No. No. I just mean it was sort of I feel like a little gift to the Magi. Like, you were saying, oh, well, I I chose to do Rust because I read your blog post. And then I said, well, I chose to do Rust because I read your blog post, and just, you know, kinda on and on in that vein.

Little too self congratulatory.

Well, mutually congratulatory.

Well, look,

I think it's the high five huddle. It's not like a self

high five. Huddle. I got you. I got you. Yeah. The okay. So the it internally, we've talked a little bit about the numbers, and we I mean, the episode that did just in terms of absolute an absolute sense, I think the the XE backdoor episode, I think, did the best numbers across the board.

Oh, yeah. I mean, unsurprisingly. Right?

Unsurprisingly. Right. I mean, you kind of expect that. And we talked a bit about the the the hidden gems. Let's talk a little bit about the Oxide episodes. Mhmm. And and what fraction of the episodes do you think are really hit on were Oxide specific?

So oxide specific being, like, kinda folks from oxide talking about oxide stuff.

Yes. I'm saying that. I mean so, actually, from folks from oxide yes. Yeah. Go ahead. On I'm

gonna say,

like, yeah.

8, maybe?

Yeah. It's like 6. Maybe. Then probably I'm I'm sure I've missed some. And then I've had oxides because there are other we've got other, like, on the when on the cultural idiosyncrasies episode, I'm not sure that we had anyone else from Oxide talking about that. We were talking a lot about Oxide.

We we did. Why do we we did because we mentioned jujitsu, JJ. And so, therefore, Steve Oh, so Steve Nickybeard. He was cultured. Yes.

Kind of like a Beetlejuice phenomenon there.

Exactly. Okay. So I I really enjoyed that one too. In part one of the things I enjoyed most was we were talking about I think there were a lot of good I I think talking about culture and culture being what we do and good discussion. I loved your kind of incredulity about companies not doing demo day. You're like, demo day is great. Like, we do demos.

Demos are great. Company possibly operate with that demo day?

And I was like, Brian, you remember, we were a company that did not have demos.

You're trying to remember, like, you're trying to think how can any company operate with that demo day? That was that was the company we worked for company.

That's right.

We did that.

Your company did not have demos until you thought about doing demos.

I'm outraged by this. Yeah. No. There you go. Yep.

Yes. That that was an oxide episode.

That was an oxide episode. And I think we you know, and those oxide episodes did well. Actually, people really I mean, we I wouldn't say we're hesitant, but we also you know, I would say on the oxide stuff, I feel we it's helpful when people ask us some of the things that they'd like to hear more about Mhmm. Because we're so enmeshed in all of it. I loved the I mean, I loved all of the oxide episodes, but, like the RFD episode, I thought was particularly, I thought that was very timely.

Yes. Yeah. I think so. No. We did another one during the day because to to accommodate a guest, I can't remember which one. But, yeah, that that was a special place in my heart because I did that from our Airbnb in Italy where I had, like, packed a mic just for that occasion. So that that was a great episode.

And then how you know, I I've not spent a huge amount of time in the just because, like, the question that I had, which is how I got here, is, like, how many listeners do we actually have from Europe? We definitely do have listeners from Europe, but most of our our listeners according to the Transistors Analytics, which I how much do you trust those? Do we do do we trust those? I'm not sure we

I trust those decently.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If you, like, if if you kinda show up as a download there, like, that is probably a legitimate download coming from that spot. Yeah. But it's it's like downloads you've missed.

Yeah. And it's over and it's under. Right? Like, you get downloads that obviously someone downloaded, but then listened to. But apparently, like, some of the platforms will, like, cache it and stuff, so you don't necessarily get those stats. So it's hard to know. I mean, it's wrong, but it's hard to know in what direction.

So it's interesting to look at, like, the I mean, obviously, you know, US and Australia, the UK, but then getting into some European countries. I got kinda mesmerized by the the, like, the 0.03% countries. It's just like I mean, I think it's great. Like, you've got folks in, you know, you in Malawi, you know, in like, there's clearly one person has listened to us in Malawi, which I think or in Namibia, or it's actually, like, multiple people have listened to us from Namibia because 4 different regions in Namibia have listened have pulled the podcast. Or it's one person who has listened to us in 4 different spots in Namibia.

way, pretty great.

It's pretty great. As a you know, as someone who's been there to it's actually I saw the I saw The Phantom Menace in Namibia.

I told

you this? No. That's weird. Is it? It is weird because it had it had, and I, of course, had already seen it and had my heart ripped out and crushed by

its terrible mediocrity. And you saw it for a second time. You're like,

I saw it for a second time.

That's that's even more confusing.

It is I saw it for a second time and, in Windhoek with my sister who had not seen it. And, I mean, you've met my sister, you can kind of imagine this that I'm like, it's a terrible movie. It's it's like, no, it can't be as bad as you're describing. I'm like, it is definitely as bad as I'm describing. Like, we are not I don't think it's a good idea.

Sorry I recommended it.

Sorry, I recommended it. So, yeah, I guess I came out in their analytics as a as a view in Namibia. But if you if you've been listening to us in Namibia, that's awesome. Or anywhere, I think, around the globe. I think it's really terrific, that we're we've got a a clearly very small number of listeners. Tajikistan, I mean, that's like, wow. Yeah. That's a I mean, that's kind of amazing. The if you're a Tajik listening to us, really, really impressed. Yeah.

He'll maybe. I mean, one of the cool things about, you know, I went back to Italy, went to this conference, you know, whatever, 6 weeks ago, something like that, and meeting a bunch of folks. And I I don't know about you, Brian, but I'm I'm a little shy about in the same way that I used to be shy about saying I have this blog and I've written this thing here in 2024 saying I have this podcast and we talked about this thing. I I don't necessarily, like, break that out right away. But over and over, when I'm like, oh, yeah.

You know, you're talking about downloading a physics simulator.

And I I I you know, they're a bunch of, like, fans at this RustLab conference, you know, who appreciated when we did the European time zone friendly one so they could join live. So the you know, it's it it is fun, you know, how the the niche reach has reached a bunch of different places.

Well, I think I told you this that when we had this event here at Oxide, were coming up to me talking about how much they love the podcast. And then in the next breath, asking where's, where's Adam? And I'm like, well, I mean, I don't know Adam's around. Like, I'm here though. I mean, do we they're like really not Have you You yeah. Exactly. I okay.

Well I mean, I guess if

you saw the back, I that's right. That's could I you know, put it away. I was like, well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess so.

You know, we should make some more of those Oxide and Friends stickers. Like, those are those are good stickers. And we were sending them out to folks who helped with the show notes, which really appreciate it. So I'll keep on doing that in 2025.

Yes. I think there'll be another yeah. A little little Oxide and Friends swag would be great. We should we should do a little more. Okay.

That's right. That's right. When yeah. Alan James were very apprehensive about joining the show. Like, I I know that James went on this whole, like, you know, went to Guitar Center, like, got a microphone, brought it home, didn't like it. You know, the there he was expressing his anxiety about being on the show in acoustic quality. And, yeah, Alan was

listen to it much, James? I mean, do we or not? You know? Seriously.

And then, yeah, very nervous. I was like, Alan, look. Nobody's gonna care about this thing. Like, nobody's gonna listen to it. Like, it's gonna be fine. It's just for us. And it was great. And it was like and it was yeah. That's I you know what? I think sometimes you give people what they need to hear. I think and I think that's what he needed to hear in that moment. Thank you very much. Okay.

Okay. Do you know what? That sounds great.

Yeah.

But, also, I lied to

him because, like, it's one of our most downloaded shows.

It's it was great. And I thought and, I loved that. I loved, when we had Sean on talking about what's taking so long in terms of of Rust compile times. Getting, Dave and Eliza and crew on the the the saga of sagas, I thought was great. Getting, Ben Nacker on here on OXQL, that one, like, hit an exposed nerve on the Internet before it happened.

Yeah. Who's the CMU professor who was, who was cranky about that?

Andy Pavlov. Andy Pavlov. Yeah.

Yeah. And and, Ben was kinda freaked out about that. Like, he he was not happy that he was being, you know, called a, I don't know, NIH, like a sucker or whatever by this esteemed professor.

But Yeah. In that regard. I'd also I mean, Ben is is, like, one of the nicest people on the planet.

He's so I mean,

Ben is such a exactly. Anyway, that was a great Ben, I thought that was ended up being a great discussion. Yeah. Not at all surprised. And I think we we I think we I wanna say we won some people over in that they begrudgingly acknowledged that we have the right to do our own query language at the end of the episode. It's like, no. Thanks. You know, we did our own, like, board designs. We did our own switch. Does that bother you? It's like, no. No. That's okay. That's okay. Yep.

Yeah.

People are always you know, they love to go into r f d 26. That one keeps coming back on on Akron News. So that one that one comes up a bunch. What was the other? Though and then we had, Dave Pacheco on back to back on Mhmm.

They want less of it?

I don't think we would do less of it, but we might do a little more of it. Yeah. I mean, you know you

know, there's one more of it I wanna do that I've been asking for. So now I'm gonna do my airing of grievances.

Yeah. See, it is happy Fest of Us. It's time to have your grievance.

So we, it's been a minute now, but we, you, me, rain, Dave, bunch folks, debugged a really nasty, really complicated issue, that maybe I won't even spoil, but it, you know, there was a moment in debugging. You know you know that, like, debugging is going great when Dave and I were like, Brian, we think that this might be a virtual memory bug of some description. And you said, okay. Let's say you can make a bug with your mind. Like, how would that bug work?

I I will offer a a witch having cast a spell on the CPU. I just need a little more detail about what the spell is.

Like, tell me about the spell. Yeah.

Tell me about the spell. And then I'll be yeah. That one was a little wild, and that one probably does merit. You know what? I feel I've got a little bit I've left a little bit on the table on that one because that one boils down to, I'm gonna say it generously, a difference of opinion about what the microprocessor's responsibilities are with respect to speculative execution, of a kernel translation.

you mean

by varying

of grievances in terms of

Wait. What are some of the episode other episodes that we need to go, go do?

I don't you know, if if I knew that, we would have we would not be thinking Monday mornings about what episode we should do next. I do have some, like, stretch goals for 2025 that and this, like, this is one of these ones, like, I need you not to laugh, but I think that it's possible. So first of all Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. What are our stretch goals? This is a great idea because I've got stretch goals too.

Stretch goal Okay. This this one is, like, maybe less stretchy. But, the, Playdate, which makes this little yellow console device Yeah. Did a great podcast. I think we've talked about it here, but it might have been a minute. They have a great podcast describing, the hardware software interface and, like, how they built it. And, like, this was a software company that branched out into hardware. Great. I think their intro podcast is, like, maybe an hour or 2. It's a great, great episode.

like, the outset. Yeah. Narafa.

Some similar some similar yeah. Narafa is awesome.

Right.

Some some kinda similar histories. And, like, I would love to have the Playdate folks on and this might be, like, maybe a little bit of a reach, but I I think that that'd be a great episode. But I'll tell you my real, like, kind of embarrassing aspiration is to get Morris Chang on the show. Like, that would be

Oh, god. Wow. My dream dream. That is a that is

And I know that I know that this is a bit of a fantasy, but I feel like we're we're not that far removed from being able to, like, bubble up to and, like, he's done some, like, kinda low budget podcasts. So, anyway, this this this is my fantasy.

I did not see this one coming. I thought so I the the get that I do wanna try, I wanna try to get Chris Miller, the author of Chip War. Yeah. That one still feels like a stretch. I feel like I'm like, I wanna try to climb Kilimanjaro. And you're like, I think we should climb Olympus Mons.

I think we should go to Mars. I'm like,

Olympus Mons isn't Olympus Mons I need to check, but isn't that on Mars? Yes. Like, yes. I think we should go.

Is my aspiration. 1st to go to Mars. 1st to climb the tallest mountain in the universe.

Doesn't climbing Olympus Mons necessitate us being on Mars? Like, well, it's an implementation detail. I'm just saying we should look. You got a dream. Fuck. You got a dream.

You're missing the forest for the trees, you idiot.

Just imagine what it's gonna feel like to plant that flag on top of Olympus Mons. You know, and they're not running tourist outfits up there. And I'll tell you that. There's not a line to get to the top of Olympus Mons.

Okay. Look, I told you I said maybe don't laugh, but I guess you didn't hear that.

No. I'm not laughing. I'm like I mean

You you admire my courage. I saw.

It's a very brave proposal. It is a very brave proposal. I mean, I mean, like, why not get Breakmaster Cylinder to do a beat for Morris Chang?

I mean, like, let's just let let

you know, let's do it all, you know? Why not? Okay. So I Morris Chang. Let's put that down.

But look, I'm here. Pierre LeMond probably knows Morris Chang. Right? Sure. I gotta stop. Okay.

No. I mean, like, I'm just envisioning the conversation that I'm gonna have with Pierre about Pierre not a listener to Oxide and Friends. Like, just read

me the text even in the 6 digits after it. It's fine, Pierre.

Yeah. Alright. So the more striking. Why not? That would be I mean, it would be amazing. You know, there there is and you said there's there's a book that is he that he's published, like, an autobiography, like

Two part autobiography. Look for it. Published in Taiwan, all written in Chinese. So I'm not sure I'm the the target demo for that. I think the first volume he released, a while ago, because he referenced it in his interview with, Jensen Wong, in the Computer History Museum, oral histories, and that was a while ago. And the but he just released the the second volume, which is, like, 1200 pages or something like that.

But and his third there

are no translate no. There are no translations of either volume. So,

maybe your lupus bond. Get them on the shot. I'm what what the what's the highest mountain on Neptune? I think that may be more of it. In

fact, do

you think lupus bonds is actually feeling a lot more attainable now than

Of course. I mean, I mean, we do have plans to go to Mars, at least. Exactly. That sounds right. Like, we humanity.

We we humanity. I the and the and, I mean, it was just gonna be in, I mean, am I gonna do this in, like, Taiwanese? I mean, am I gonna No.

No. He he he speaks great English. Like, have you have you watched the, the episode the, Computer History Museum interview with Jensen

and him? I understand that, but for you, he's not trail he's deliberately not translated his autobiography clearly. So, alright. Well, no. You know what? I'm what what we're I got a lot of studying to do. I got some duolingo. I gotta hit I'm ready I I'm ready to roll. I'm ready to roll. We're gonna I I'm I either I think you gotta get you gotta have the stretch it's a stretch goal. Like, look, it's a stretch goal. Look. Stretch goal. Like, why am I

Nobody nobody's ever attained something they didn't imagine first. So, you know

I usually, like, move the Overton window around our stretch goal. So, like, I wanna like, I'm still thirsty for Kate Conger and Ryan Mac to get on here for, to talk about, character limit. But now that feels like exactly. That just feels so pedestrian that I'm not, I mean, if I have thoughts, I just feels like I'm getting gossip calmness on here. Of course, I which that that's gonna do great. What's gonna do wonders for getting them on here? I think I've just, like, shot my opportunity there.

No. Oh, yeah. Because they're they're listening to, like, look. Because they're having a conversation on every word.

Yeah. Let's

for them to mention my name so I can respond to that invitation. It's been sitting in my inbox.

It's been sitting in my inbox. Alright. Maybe they can connect maybe they can get us to Morris Chang anyway, you know, get get one. That's a perfect

I'm I it's a dream. Right? They're they're the dream.

It is a dream. It is a dream. I do think that Chris Miller that one feels like we can that that feels attainable.

Yes. That feels like you're right. Because he's trying to sell his book, like, in English and everything. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. That's right.

As opposed to Marsch, like, not trying to sell a booking in English.

Yes. And not not running one of the world's most valuable companies and, you know, other other reasons why Chris Miller might be a little more available than Yeah.

Look. You can find all the reasons you want for why I can't have this.

Okay, Brian? Like, we talked about it. It's positive affirmations

in 2025.

Okay. So what are some other episodes that we, and obviously mentioned Kate Conger or Ryan Mac. I would love to have them on at some point. But, the, would are there are there other do you that that's gotta be your, That

is that is my that is my Kilavancharo on Everest. Yes.

Rain in the chat is mentioning the, a long awaited async cancellation episode. I do think we need to do that. Yes. That we should get.

I have a self destructive hobby along those lines. Actually, I have 2. I have 2 self destructive hobbies related to an sync async cancellation. 1st, I buy all the new books that come out about async rust and, and I don't review them because I think it would be rude to.

Interesting. Because they don't talk about this issue.

Oh, because okay. As long as they're they're not listening right now because they're all terrible. They're all just, like, makes me cry terrible.

Yeah. It's hard.

Because it's not even that. It's like, man, the one I got recently, it's like talking about how, you know, processes are kinda like threads, but different. It's like, please stop. Please stop. Yeah.

What it So Wow.

It's a cry for help is what I'm saying.

Yeah. It is a cry for help. And what what what happens there?

Very little. Like, very little, not that much. And then when I'm there, I I offer, like, unhelpful pedestrian statements. Like, it would be nice if the documentation were better or or yeah. Or, like, if you could debug the thing, that would be nifty. And they're like, this is great, like, practical, you know, salt of the earth kind of feedback, but nothing really happens.

Alright. So are we Asking

cancellation, we'll do it. We'll do it next year. I I do feel like I wanna get my there's a blog post that I that I that I got kinda cooking, but, like, we'll we'll definitely get that sorted out.

Alright. We got a joker in the chat asking if that meeting gets canceled often. Mhmm. I

And and does it lead to data corruption when it does? That's the real question.

Exactly. How do they recover from that cancellation? Yeah. Exactly. The I do think it's it would be worth, having an episode on that. I'd I'm not sure. Yeah. It might be that that may well, we have to schedule that one, a year from now on on the the next airing of grievances. That one that one could get a little Yes. Little a little rocky. And did you have what were some other are there other particular moments or episodes that you, like, favorites from the liked? Yeah.

Yeah. Looking back through my

I okay. What what is an the episode that you refer other people to, if anything, if any?

Excy. I think it's just like it's it's a good, like, general, you know, Yeah. I don't know. Appeals to a lot of folks. Right? Like, folks know about it. And, like, it's an interesting one. How about you?

I so a a bunch of them, I do tend to yeah. I know this is last year, but, I definitely refer people that are interested in working in oxide to the Gary Gay or or us Yeah. Yeah. Episode where we kinda talk about our hiring process. I think it's very important.

That's good. The the, RFD one that we've already mentioned it, but, like, that's another good, like, kind of meat and potatoes, approachable one that I that I refer to.

What is there anything that you've got wrong that you would like to correct? Actually, how frequently do we edit these before we

Edit them? What do you mean?

Edit them? We do very little editing. I think people know this.

You do very little editing. I, do all the editing.

Fair.

How much do we edit? Like, rarely do we do I, like, really, like, take a hatchet to something? Like, I you know, if, especially as people are talking over each other, it'll do that kind of editing. It's rare, but it happens sometimes that I'll, like, actually remove some slice of content. Like, we had a guest on the show, not this year, but in previous years, who was kind of, like, blowing through all the stop signs that everyone and all the other speakers were giving them to, like, please stop talk like, on the vein that you are about to go down, please stop going down that vein.

show. But we basically do a light edit. I've as you've described, I I do an extremely light edit, which is to say nothing, but you you do a relatively light up.

Yeah. Yeah. Very light. It'll be like if if if we screwed something up that we really are mortified about personally, that's that's usually the thing I'm fixing.

Well, so the but I would like to say that I have made some mistakes. I am mortified about that I've we've never doctored. So those mistakes will now live forever. What about

anything really killing you?

I on on the Intel episode, I did get a couple of, like, for whatever reason, and I was just I don't know. Head of steam something. I called Sapphire Rapids Sapphire Lake. And I know that I yeah. I know. I felt, and then I also

are you?

I pretty much. And then I, I conflated Ice Lake and Cascade Lake at one point. And I know this sounds, like, ridiculous because these kinda code names are a little bit ridiculous, but I thought it was pretty bad. And then I kinda got the the

Have you been reading your comments on Mastodon? Is that what happened? Is that like, have the people on Mastodon been being mean to you about this?

They have been being extremely mean to me. No. No. Actually, that is funny because the some of the the YouTube comments, are generally, like, not that negative, actually. I mean, there's some complaints about the audio, but then it's like, I think the no. Dead silence. Am I wrong? I think I'll go through both the YouTube comments.

Are you too nervous though? No. They're all good. They're they're, like, basically positive and, recently some spam about, Tether. So that's Really?

Yeah. More that

was more on dtrace.com. It turns out USDT also means US dollar Tether. So the fact that we have that that title attracted all the spam

Oh my god. Great.

This is a great topic. A little off topic, but I have a wallet with this as the passphrase. Can you help me access it?

A little off topic. That is that's delightful. Yeah. That's great. I I did not realize that. That is really a pretty funny. Yeah.

It's a good one.

And then I think, another episode that you've talked about in terms of, like, component that we have built on, I wanna get the, the rounded 2ie folks.

Oh, yeah. Oh, right. I forgot. Yeah. I bumped into Orhan at this, the, one of the maintainers of Ratatouille at this conference in Italy I was mentioning. And, yeah, it'd be it'd be great to get him on the show, because we use it all the time.

We use Ratatouille a lot. Yeah. We In fact,

featured as the image in the OXQL episode.

That's right. I was feeling like we need a I almost wanna get kind of a feature where we're getting some, like, featuring some crates that people should know about.

Mhmm. You know? That that would be a good episode on its on its own. Right?

You should know would be a good episode. Just like that. In the past? No. I don't think we have. Have we not? Okay.

I don't know.

You don't know, but then what have we never mentioned how we felt when MCA died? Oh, no. Wait a minute. Do that. Apparently, everything else there.

World War 2 a a source of stress for some?

Is that okay. And then we are definitely gonna get the, so So when

she just crates in the box, I just have to, like yes. Crates in the box. Perfect.

I love our books in the box episodes. I think those are great. I love hearing what people are reading, and I, I've already read the Mouse Driver Chronicles, which I thought was Yeah. A great addition.

I have I have not finished that, but it's it's probably

It is truly Rosencrantz and Guildenstern for the dotcom though. I mean, the way Ian described it very, very accurately. And, they truly have no idea what they're doing and just, like, watching them walk into rigs. But they're also very, like, very energetic and and reasonably self effacing, and it's, it is of its time, but definitely, I enjoyed reading it. So I well, I but alright.

So Rain, who, like, basically rewrote the whole thing. Thank you, Rain. She was delightful. But, yeah, let's do that. Let's do a crates episode. We can talk about some some crates that even other people have written.

Yes. And then I wanna get stay tuned for some great episodes. I think next year, we're gonna I I wanna definitely get we're gonna talk about the X2, from Xyte and, and what we're doing with p 4 there. And, we just got a bunch of interesting hardware and software coming next year. So, a lot of fun stuff to talk about.

Morris Chang.

And Morris Chang and Olympus Mons. We're gonna go Get out your backpacking gear, folks, and whatever you need to survive on Mars and also what you need to get to Mars because we're gonna go we're going to Mars and we're gonna climb Olympus Mons. But it's been, it's been great. It's been a great year, and it's been so much fun, and I'm looking forward to a terrific year in 2025. So, please, if folks do have ideas on things folks would like us to have on the podcast, I mean, Boris Chang is inbound, so, hey, let's get you know, I I I don't know who's not inbounds at this point.

Well, JP Morgan. I mean, you were talking about the other day.

I mean, I've been been whispering his name non goddamn stop hoping that someone would just be getting him on the podcast. Let's get JPMorgan on here. No. Not someone from JPMorgan. I'm talking about JP Pierpont Morgan himself. I wanna I wanna listen to him regale us about putting down the 1907 rich man's panic with his cane. Yep. So it's gonna be, it's gonna be a fun year. And thank you. Thank you, everybody.

And, next time in the New Year, bring your predictions. We're gonna be reviewing predictions from, I can't remember when we started, but we're gonna we might even have some 3 years cooked. But

We've got a the the the first, our first 3 years are coming due. So- Joshua Nelson

(zero zero six:fifty seven): That's great.

Joshua Nelson (zero zero six:fifty seven): We're going to be reviewing some 3 years. We're going to be making new predictions. It's going to be a ton of fun. So- Joshua

Nelson (zero zero six:fifty seven): Yeah. That's pretty

great. Alrighty. Thank you, everyone. Have a great end of your year and to bring those predictions next year. So we're obviously off next week, but we'll see you in the new year. Thanks, everybody.