Books in the Box IV

Last time we also used Craig, there was, like, a gap in the recording. So I looked around, and it turns out that Craig has a buddy called g arc, which is Craig backwards, and Craig and G'Arc are gonna work together to make sure we don't drop any recording content.

Are you certain you're pronouncing G'Rourke correctly?

Gjark? No. I'm not sure of the correct pronunciation of Gjark. What what do you think is the correct pronunciation of Gjark? I don't know.

I I I don't know. And I mean, I think you and I both had Tomax and Zmod vibes in those.

A 100%. A 100%.

Do you think, is this an implicit reference to Tomac and Zayman? It just seems such like a bizarre thing to go do that it's gotta be a right?

No. I mean I mean You have to have

Tomac and Zayman on the Detroit's episode. If not, why not?

That's amazing that we didn't because when Did you

know that we didn't?

I know I I'm I feel pretty confident that we didn't. Yeah. Wow. It's a, that's

a very weird attribute of the Detrace source space.

It really is. It's great. I was actually, it's funny. You mentioned that Brian, because, as you were talking about Tom X and Z amount for like first thought is, you know, cartoon and action figures from whatever it was 35 years ago. 2nd thought was, I wonder if the people know that that's the name of the buffer and the other buffer in DTrace.

You know, it's completely, to me, this is not out of the out of question that the variable names in DTrace could surpass the GI Joe figures in ultimate fame, in lasting fame.

Okay. You know?

Okay. I no. Listen. I know you think I'm getting a little too big for my purchase over here, but listen, our Tomac and Zaymott are in daily use. These things are used all the time. Their Tomac and Zaymott this is not something that has left the generational chasm. The people who are listening to this being like, they're they're having audio problems again.

So Tomac

I mean, there's just absolutely no way this has left the jail. I don't think GI Joe I I don't think anything It's

such an okay boomer kind of thing. Yeah. Exactly.

Oh, it's a this is an okay extra thing.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

And I mean, I don't think any of this has has, you know, has left the generational cast. But anyway, the the I mean, these are bit characters in twins, right? Twins that would complete one of those sentences.

Joined at the pain. Do you recall this?

Joined at what?

Doctor. Joined at the pain. You don't remember this part? If you hurt 1 Doctor.

Oh, you're right.

Doctor. If you hurt 1,

it would injure the other. Doctor.

You injure the other. God.

God. Yeah. God. That's right. Yeah. So the how do how oh, were you and we're here because of, of course, because of Oh, yeah. Jeff and Jeff and Feog would have been better. I'd still get known

has been known only to you, but that's

pretty Esther's known Only in my inter dementia. So, hey, I got another question speaking of like podcasts and generational lore and and and total lack of introductions. So as we we're in Books in the Box 4, so we're we're excited to talk about some of the books we've read since July of last year. So it's been a little while, a little longer than a year. And I one of the books I read in the last year is and you should know that I by the way, I you know, last year I was with my books, clothed, which I felt like I had to offer up.

I I I've

got my I I'd you know, I kinda got the, the books I wanted to talk about, brother Lizzie. And one of them was Sunburst, The Ascent of Sun Microsystems. Did I talk about this book? I swear, in one of our intros, I talked about this book. Because I think you yeah.

I think you you did mention that.

You're feeding this. I it's because you know what I ended up doing? I got this from High Noon, which you Right. Which you gave to me or regift it to me depending on one's interpretation I didn't for my birthday last year. Gave to you. I was thinking.

I mean, I bought it, read it, and gave it to you. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah. I think I I think, like, a flat out gift. I think it was Okay. I, the but so High Noon sent me to this book, Sunburst. I swear I brought it up in one of our podcasts.

You mean us talking about some action figures we had 35 years ago is not out of character?

Doctor. And the fact that they could telegraph pain. I think that's such a great pull. Exactly. And so, but in particular, you know, a detail that I had just forgotten is the, SPF in the SPF trial, it coming out that he believed that Shakespeare could was like mathematically not the not the greatest author of all time, and then forcing you to explain that against your will.

Oh, God, I do remember that. I remember, and I remember giving it an explanation and then you pausing and saying basically that I had given the most credit possible to SBI.

It did you really were trying to go out of your way, I felt, to, to to give weight to this absolutely zany idea. Yeah. No. So that that is just such a weird cut through the last year. And then I couldn't find that. I'm like, nink, you didn't mention it.

But You know this. You know this. Right? Like, we could you could search the transcript. Anyway.

I should search the transcript. Okay. Yeah. So this, well, so do you mind kinda kick kick off with this book just to

like Yeah.

Let's go. Yeah. Alright. Alright. Alright. So the, so just to to get it on there because, you know, I think one of the things we have said is that there's not a great history of Sun, and I actually think that this book, that Sunburst, is, is the closest one we've got. I think it's actually it's pretty good. Written by Sun Employees, kinda covers up until 1990. Yeah. But but I thought it was, it was really good.

Mhmm.

I mean, in particular, they really throw Bill Joy under the bus in a way that was really very delightful, so felt no obligation to, but it's good. And so anyway, that that was what I wanna get out there. Again, I'm I'm convinced I brought this up earlier on the podcast, so I'm sorry for doing that, but just for the recording

as they say.

There we go. And that, who's that by? That is by Mark Hall and John Barry. With a forward by Tom Peters. Feels very, very 1990 of it to have a forward by Tom Peters.

And having I I, you know, I read High Noon obviously, how would you compare the 2?

Better than High Noon.

Okay.

Cool. Because I tell

I feel like High Noon was

about that. Was fine.

Yeah. High Noon was fine.

High noon was fine, but but I think this book is better. I think sunburst is better.

Okay.

That sunburst obviously ends in 1990. So, it is really only the history from, like, 83 to 90. But in some ways like that's and you know, Sun is like has several different lives within it. And, that first life is a really important life, you know, where they've kind of caught this big workstation boom, you know, they're riding Moore's Law, they're developing their own microprocessor, it's just an explosion of stuff. Yeah.

So I feel like that that's where high Newton really covered. Like, I mean, presciently really up to the peak. I feel like the the title was even more on the nose than the author could have possibly

It was a higher noon than they could have possibly known. It's like I knew the sun was gonna set. I knew the sun was actually gonna be like

invade it. Explode. Explode. Exactly. So how do you wanna do this? I mean, I I've got a few. We've also got Nick up who has volunteered to to bring some book recommendations. Where where do you wanna start?

I say we just run Robin. Let's let's just, okay. Ron Robin. And do you well, actually, let me ask you this. Do you and obviously, I haven't answered this question for myself. Are there any books that were recommended to you in a previous Books in the Box episode that you've read? Yes. That you read last year.

Yes.

And and what do you think? Yeah.

So I read, Into the Raging Sea by

Oh, that was mine. Yes. Oh, yeah.

God, I loved it so much.

So Well, so good.

This was a ship that was destroyed in her I mean, spoiler, in hurricane Joaquin and a description of, you know, from the, I was gonna say, like, flight data recorder, but the the shipboard equivalent. And, so a narrative pulled from that, that was just fascinating about about all the failures and failures of leadership and failures to recognize changing conditions back to, like, onshore mismanagement, you know, which which tragically ended with, All Souls Lost. It was just a fantastic book.

A fantastic book. You're not giving away the ending, I feel, unlike Moby Dick and Major the movie Major League. I feel this is not a spoiler because it is I mean, it is the sinking of El Faro is kinda in the subtitle.

Right.

I loved this book. I thought it was I I read it right after it was recommended to us. I gave it to my mom for Christmas.

Yeah. I I gave it to my dad. Yeah.

Did you, oh, look at that. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. It's really great that we found one another, you know, we share such bizarre things in common. We give our parents disaster books.

Yeah. I mean, I should all say that our parents actually went to college together too, but I'll I'll just leave that for a future episode.

That is true. But I the the the presence of the voice recorders on these things. So there are, like, 6 different recorders throughout the ship. So they have all of these conversations. I mean, it is mesmerizing. It is so good and there are so I mean, there's so much fractal failure here. It takes more than just a dummy captain to sink a vessel. Oh, yeah. And Yeah. And a hurricane. Yeah. Although, actually, those 2 are probably get you I don't I don't

Most of the way there, hurricane.

Probably do get you most of the way there. But there's some other things too. And I thought that book was really, really great. And so thank you for that recommendation. It was a

Who I I didn't give the recommendation.

Who No. No. You didn't give the recommendation. It was a listener who gave the recommendation while at sea. Oh, wow. They came in via Starlink and gave that recommendation. I was I especially a special admiration to someone willing to give a a marine disaster.

That that reminds me of what

we actually, I'd say.

When, we years ago now, we were, reviewing the Boeing book.

Yeah. Flying Blind. Free call. Flying by. Flying by. Flying by. Flying free call. Was it the one? Yes. Yeah. Flying by. And I

was and I was reading that on a 787, nervously, I would say.

But was there a clarinet playing in the background?

Pardon me. 737. And no, there wasn't at the time, but that was obviously a highlight

of Obviously, top of mind is the clarinet. I did one of truly, I think one of our both all time favorite moments on this podcast is when we've got the author of Flying Blind on here, and his kid is he's having to move from room to room because his kid is practicing the clarinet and and sounding like pretty good for a kid.

That's Yeah. I also read another one, another another book that was recommended now. And and this opens the door, folks who are giving recommendations, really, you need to have read the book. And I think last year, we accepted a recommendation for for someone who who said they were looking forward to it, hadn't read the book, we're looking forward to it. And this is, Doom Guy by John Romero.

Yes,

one of the authors of doom, almost a rebuttal to masters of doom, which painted Romero in a very bad light. I hated this book. I can't like, I, I, I can't even like, I just rage read my way through this book. Just feeling like I've I felt so passionately that I couldn't just put it down, although my wife insists that that's the thing one could do. Not something I'm capable of.

No. This is the skill you and I have in common. The incapability of putting down a bad book and also incapability of not complaining to your spouse about it.

That's right. She

said, why don't you put

it down? It was just atrocious, poorly written, like weird narrative vignettes that that kind of that because I don't care about John Romero and I didn't beforehand and I care less now, like, just made no sense to me. So couldn't stand it. But this actually dovetails into a recommendation I give. I had forgotten that I'd read this book, but, Gordon Mechner, I'm not sure I'm pronouncing his name correctly, but the author of Prince of Persia, wrote a bunch of like, was an avid or an intense journaler during the period when he was creating Prince of Persia, selling it, publishing it, porting it, and so forth.

yeah. Amazing. Did you play Prince of Persia when it first came out?

You know what? I played it on the Mac, not on the Apple. So I think the answer is

On the Apple 2gs Yeah. I think. And it was like peering into the future.

Totally.

And it it was amazing.

The technology that he I mean, what they were able to do in the Apple was kind of unthinkable at the time. And I remember it being spectacular on the Mac too, and probably even better, but less probably less magical just because, you know, there were other other game the technology was more advanced. The system was more advanced. But, his description of of building and publishing it, interacting with the publisher and, just the the rotoscoping, the the inspiration from adversity, from constraints. It was everything that I wanted this this doom book to be and that wasn't.

Okay. That's awesome. I actually I have this book, but I have not read it. And I've been I've been meaning to. I also played did you play Crotica? Crotica?

No. That was his first game, right? Oh, his

first game. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No. I

didn't. I read it Crotica on the Atari 800.

Nice.

It's weird. Definitely. It feels like another day down at the home over here, but, which is and and Crotica itself was like was definitely differentiated. It was amazing. Yeah. But Prince of Persia was just so next level. Yeah. That's great. So the book was good.

Book is really good. And, you know, as you know, I'm mostly like an ebook person just because I don't like clutter, or or rather I've I've saturated with clutter. And I and I don't wanna get rid of existing clutter. But, I got the physical copy and the the which is really important, just the, the graphics, the images, all that stuff, and just the tactile. It's just a really well made book. It's a really terrific one.

I wanna say that, like, Stripe Press made this book. Yeah.

Published this book.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's right. You know what? I've got it in my cabinet right here, but I I think that's correct.

I'll I'll This is the value of being among your books when we're doing this.

Well

And and clothed. And clothed. Yeah. Clothed and among the books. So I

have to emphasize that point. Yeah.

Oh, I love the like the walking away from those.

That was I mean, I've got a physical physical microphone. I I got it right here.

There you go. I got this this book right here. Yeah. And is it by Stripe Press?

Yes, it is. Yep. So ideas for progress. Yes. Press.stripe.com. Yes. That's right.

Okay.

It's a great book.

So, keeping with the this this group is a great segue to a book that I'm reading now and really enjoying. So, oh, actually, first of all, you've laid down the law based on I could when you were saying, like, you may only recommend a book you've already read, I'm like, okay, clearly, there is some something went wrong in a previous recommended recommendation from last year. I'm gonna recommend this book even though I'm I I'm probably about 2 thirds of the way through it. Is that still safe? I'm I'm reactively.

I wanna be clear. Last time, the recommendation was unread. Like, I think the book had not yet been published.

So, okay. So, in their credit to their credit, this is not someone who's actually trying to sabotage you, but this is a book you're gonna read anyway. Don't you think? Because you were waiting for Romero's like kind of,

yes. It had, I mean, it, it had, some of the same chiplets that we look for in like a dubious movie, which is

just something we've

discussed at nausea, but it's it's publication date had been pushed out several times.

That's like, yes.

Another another good sign that like things are not going well. So, I mean, it's

not going well.

I suspected I wasn't gonna love this book, already. So that which is a fair critique.

But in part because in order to I mean, masters of doom goes into this fracture. Right? And it's kind of like wasn't it gonna be hard for you to have an a kind of an account from Romero that squares it all and is still sympathetic? I mean, isn't it hard to be I may not I need to read Masters of Doom. Is that

That's totally fair. Barking? Yeah. It is my dog barking. She's like

Does the dog did the dog read a book? Or is the dog like dog's like, I got her book recommendation, but I haven't read it yet. Am I allowed to even like

It's like, let me in. Come on. I just wanna yeah. Exactly.

So the, on Stripe Press, I so so I am reading a book, and I don't know how I got to it. I thought I got to it from Sunburst. But a, a book that is really interesting on the history of Silicon Valley written in 1985. So it is very semiconductor heavy, and very well written. It's the major minus is there are absolutely no sources whatsoever.

There's so much.

And, Michael Malone? I I don't wanna speak on behalf of Sue, but I think it might not have met her expectations. Or maybe it did, and she's like, nope. It definitely is what I was expecting it. That's why I'm giving it away. I but it ended up in my possession. Great book, and it's been republished by Stripe Press.

Nice.

And there are so this book is loaded actually with some really good stuff, and has sent me down a couple of different paths, just if I may. One is and I'm sure there are there is, like, a canonical book on Fairchild, but this just reminded me that I really need to read a book that is dedicated to Fairchild. Fairchild Semiconductor. Yeah. Yeah.

Mhmm.

And so here's my question to you, Adam. Given that Pierre Lamond, a is a founding member of our board, I feel and that Oxide is his last company. I think Oxide is the last of the FairChildren.

Or maybe a fair grandchild or, like, a direct Fairchild?

I feel that we the fact that we had a someone who is at Fairchild on our board. Okay. I say, we are you know, we're like one of those, like, super late in life children. Like, isn't didn't like John Tyler? Yeah. Like, was it John Tyler. Right? And he didn't he have was it John Tyler or Zachary Taylor? I honestly always these kids admitted. I'm sure I'm the only one that makes this mistake. But one of these two cat had a kid at, like, 95. Got it. And

Where where the 5 year old whose siblings are all middle aged?

Absolutely. No. And did you know that, like, again, it's either John Tyler or Zachary Taylor. I'm certain it's one of those 2. That, like, that child also had a child, like, in their seventies. So there was someone who's, like, alive today whose grandfather was a president in the in, like, the 19th century. Pretty great. So, yeah, I feel like we're like that, you know, not to make it 100%.

Totally makes sense. Couldn't agree more. Exactly.

Exactly. Like John Tyler or Zachary Taylor, depending on whichever one it was. But the, the the history of of Fairchild is remarkable. The history of Intel is also really remarkable. I feel this is, you know, we've, may I, so have we talked with the oral history, that Pat Gelsinger's oral history? I'm not sure we talked about that here. I don't

think we have. We talked about them you're from the Computer History Museum.

From the Computer History Museum. Yeah.

I don't think we've talked about that one in particular, but we've talked about the them generally. And also, folks from the Computer History Museum, we remain available to discuss them as a spin off podcast.

Right. Folks, excuse me, you may remember us from the stack of letters that that you have not responded to, and the restraining order that you've taken out against us. Yes. But, yes. We folks at the Computer History Museum.

You know, I, I paid for YouTube explicitly because of some of these ones. And, like, both to treat them as a podcast and to get rid of ads, like, to run it in the background when I'm driving or whatever.

So no ads. Yeah. But, you know, that's almost worth doing. But by the way, like, give this museum. That money should not be going to YouTube.

You're you're totally right. Like, I think, you know, the history of Intel to the present day, would be, like, great perspective because they're at such a tricky spot. And understanding how they got there, very interesting.

Yeah. They're in a tricky spot. And I mean, I do think it's like, things are gonna have to really, really change. I, so the other thing I might recommend is so this took me to an, there's an I'll I'll drop this in the chat, but an oral an interview, I don't think it's written in oral history, with Jerry Sanders, who is the founder of AMD. And there's a profile of Jerry Sanders in the big score.

was

Jerry's Anderson's line. But really interesting. And then that took, took me to, and I won't recommend the book because I haven't read it yet, but I did listen to the oral history with Hector Ruiz, who was the CEO of AMD. And, man, that oral history was outstanding. So he is the CEO of AMD.

But So I was gonna hold on to this. So that sounds awesome. Definitely gonna check out that one. I was gonna let other folks join in here, but one of the books I want to recommend Yes. It's, like, dovetail so perfectly with that one. So, this is Chip War by Chris Miller.

Oh, yes. Have you read that? That is on my how is it? No. I I really wanna read it. Is it how is it?

Awesome. And I cannot wait to hear your review of it in part. So very similar. Like, it it I mean, it starts in at least in very similar ways. Starts with Fairchild, starts with Silicon Valley, history of semiconductors, Intel, AMD.

Yeah. I agree.

Yep. Just the degree he he create, you know, from TI built out the the country's greatest, kind of greatest national product, like just from his strength of will, just astounding. And I will just say that, like, the the geopolitical implications of, like, Taiwan being an island claimed by China, and mentioned that, like, you know, Trump has been explicit about, how weird it is that the mob charges for production, but we, are willing to protect Taiwan for free. Just a reminder that to vote in 8 days, I think it's very important to do that. But ship wars spectacular.

Yeah. And there is a great, Morris Chang also did a great oral history with the Computer History Museum. Oh, I

gotta check that out.

Oh, it's a must listen. No. I, I absolutely agree, and I mean, it it's such an interesting story in so many different dimensions, actually. There and there's a great the acquired on TSMC is also pretty good.

So good.

So Okay. Okay. I like,

I didn't know there was one company that could make these, like, ultra, UV machines, like ASML in in the in In

in the Netherlands.

Yeah. And then all, you know, all, from research, apparently from, like, our national labs. So very complicated, you know, negotiation and horse trading that allowed all that to happen, but but really very interesting.

That's awesome. No. I'm excited to read it. It's been on my kind of, like, mental cue, but for a long time, but I need to have that one to go to the the front of the list.

Should we, pull in our our guests who've been waiting for the Let's close.

Alright. Well, let's still wait and kinda well, except we'll run Robin it. Everyone can get kinda we'll we'll, give a book, and then we'll come around for another lap.

Alright. Nick, you've been waiting very patiently.

Yeah. Thank you. Can am I coming through clearly?

You are.

Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Thank you. Longtime listener, First Ned caller. Thanks for opening up the stage. Appreciate it. I'll try not to to, inflate your guys' egos too much, but I really, look up to both of you. So so it's it's a pleasure to get a chance to talk to you.

You know, I was just thinking, what could you possibly be apologizing for? Because we're such a pair of jackasses. But that actually is something to apologize for. I actually agree. That that apology accepted, I think.

Thank you. First, on the note of Stripe Press, I wanted to say, I have their, working in public book about open open source software development and Yeah. Just the book is just so beautifully built. Like, you can lay it flat, and it just, like, opens up nicely. It reminds me of, like, old books from, like, back in college. In the library, you'd find that just, like, are just beautifully designed and stuff. So those are definitely worth the money.

That's great. Yeah.

But, that's not my pick. I I I'll keep it short here. I, have little kids running around, and they'll probably drag me out of my office pretty soon. But, I have 2. 1 is kinda old. I'm sure it's kinda been recommended maybe before, but Creativity Inc by Ed Catmull. I don't know

if Yeah.

Anyone has has read that one, but Ed Catmull, he founded Pixar with

with

some other folks. I'm forgetting all the names, but, just a legend in the history of computer graphics. He I think he studied with Ivan Sutherland, I think is that's the name, who who did the original, I wanna say, Sketchpad software of, like, your, like, penultimate, like, computer graphics program. So just really good history there, really interesting history about Pixar, but his thesis is great because he's talking about after, you know, they had their first success in Toy Story, his job changed and he's like you know, it's like he's he's achieved his goal of making an animated feature film with graphics, computer graphics. But after that, his his job sort of shifted to wanting to build a company with a really great creative culture.

You've you've crossed 11th all threshold? Yeah. Yeah. So confidently a chart that you're not gonna no no one will be rage reading it.

Yeah. I'll I'll put my put my name on it.

There you go.

So there's that. And then I think this book came out this year. It's hardcore software by Steven Sinoffski. And I'll drop a link in the in the chat, but it's, just a fantastic history of Steven's work at Microsoft. He started in about 1989, and he was put on the project of building the tools, around c plus plus.

And and for Adam, there's an auto auto audiobook.

It's it's, I I I say that because, like, I am sitting here among my books, but I don't really have time to read anymore now that I have young kids running around and, you know, work and all that stuff. So the only time I really get is, like, when I'm standing at the sink doing dishes. So that's usually when I listen to you guys do your livestream and stuff. So it's, audio is really important just to even have a chance to read anything. So

Well, we are very pro audio. So Yeah. That's great. And and have I've I've listened I think most of the computer history Museum, oral histories have also been at the same 2 editions. So I'm I'm right there with you.

Yeah. I I think it will probably get into that. I he did have some interesting insights. I I can't really remember off the top of my head, but it seemed like they were just trying their best, you know, to, like, really win the market. And it's like I think, part of it was when he was a TA, a technical assistant for Gates.

Or maybe after the Internet had already been picked up.

Yeah. Well, like, where

Mike's just a little little laid off the off the mark on the old Internet.

Yeah. No. I you're you're totally right. The I think where, meaning is, like I think they went on a recruiting trip to to, university or something, and, like, there there was a snow day, and they were checking the, like, email. Like, they're logging on to the to, like, university's network, and they could see, like, it was just on fire. And they're just like, okay. Yeah. Everybody's just sitting around emailing each other. This is the future. Like, we gotta get networking software figured out.

This is actually he mentions this is his Wikipedia article. Cornell University 1994 after being stuck in a snowstorm, which means it was, like, definitely not in June or July, but could have been in any other month of the year. The that's yeah. That's interesting. They were yeah.

Sure. Yeah. I, I haven't gotten that far in the book to where I might be, opinionated against them. So he's a he's a fresh name to me. So There you go.

Oh, you you pair it with, with Jerry Kaplan's startup, book I know we've talked about from time to time, but that's another that's a really good book that is written, from the outside of Microsoft. That's the, about the about Go, the company, not the language.

Well, and, that was good. Showstopper 2. I mean, we we talked about that.

2.

Yeah. I guess more ins was that that was not a particular insight. I mean, it was a journalist, you know, what following folks around. I thought that was a great one too.

I thought that was a great one too. Yeah. G Pascal Zachary. That's right. Friend of the pod or Lisa on the pod.

Of the pod.

Has struggled with the audio issues on our podcast, which is Yeah.

I'm right. Not a small group of people.

Well, like, those are great recommendations.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it, guys. See

you. Yeah. You bet. Thanks. And thanks so much for, you know, hopping up here, giving the recommendations. Alright. Who else we, who's next, Adam?

How about Josh?

Hello. Hello.

Josh, this is super cool. And, Josh, if I may, did you do you feel like you lived through some of the periods of

this book, or was was that the same question?

No.

I was asking you for your birth year. Could you please provide us your birth year? No. It's so sweet when

it's fine.

Tomax and Xamot. Do they have any special attributes that you can name?

It it's wait. No. They don't. It's fine. I was 13 when this book came out. So

Okay.

Yeah. Got

it. Yeah.

There you

go. Came out.

Yeah. Yeah. Published in 20 in 2014. 2014. I don't that math doesn't matter too good for me, but yes.

That's okay. Okay. I think I think Josh is telling us very gently that we are extraordinarily old.

That's right. That sounds right.

He's like, yeah, I don't know what I've never had a rotary phone.

Right.

Actually, I have a rotary phone in my house, which is my my father took an old pay phone and modified it to work with modern telephone signaling. So

Okay. Okay. You know, I think we Adam, I think we got an honorary Xer here. I think I think we gotta we we we gotta promote this guy up. We like it. Oh, interesting. So

When the hardcover got published, IG.

But yeah. No. This is a good book.

Lots of great tangled detail lots of great, like, social and technical details, and it also touches on how the whole phone freaking subculture ties into the homebrew computing scene that was happening around the same time. You know, of course, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were selling blue boxes to the rich and the famous.

A 100%.

A bunch

I mean Yeah. I mean, this was what I mean, this was this is the era of the anarchist cookbook, and this is I I mean, I I mean, this is much more this is our lived experience, I dare say. I don't know that you and I were on the I was too freaking to actually do anything, but I Yeah. There's some mesmerized by it all.

Yeah. There's some really great stories in there. This is this book is also why I own several volumes of the Bell System technical journal, because I was visiting the University of Pittsburgh, and they just literally had the shelf of books that they didn't want anymore sitting in the lobby. And I was like, there's, like, 5 volumes to the Bell System technical journal right here. I see someone else mentioning, Kevin Mitnick's books.

I

I By what I saw, that was also very good.

I have a banger recommendation for you that I don't think the and, Adam, I'm not sure if you read this, out of the inner circle.

No. I don't.

Yeah.

I'm gonna need to

read that.

Tier 1.

Oh, that is that's cool. That definitely right up my alley.

And And very much the same era.

I'm gonna link the cuckoo's egg here. I think that was recommended on a previous book in the box books in the box. But, the cuckoo's egg is great. Great classic.

Yeah. That is, that's good though. I so alright. You you definitely this is a very good exploding phone looks looks really good. And because that that it was that it was like it was a very finite era. Right, Adam? You know, it's like that's what that is our youth. And

Sort of like eighties, early nineties kinda neighborhood?

Yes. And I the one thing I did is I used there was a that you could use, was it was it a blue box that you could use to get free long distance calls? I did do that a couple of times. I just got scared that I was gonna get caught.

That's exactly what it was, and the book dives into why and how that worked. And because there it's the actual exploit is I don't know. You probably know this already. I don't know. But it it was that they were sending control information along Audible. Voice lines

Yeah.

Audibly and yeah. When you could give you could give the the tones that would

be emitted when a when quarters were dropped into a pay phone, and you could you then emit those control signals.

That was a red box.

Yeah. That's a red box. Yeah.

Yeah. No. That that's where I didn't use a red box. I I'd I'd use the

But the other the other thing about, the other thing about that book is it gave me a real appreciation for just how amazing the engineering behind analog phone systems and electromechanical switching Mhmm. Before the, the move to digital was and the incredible amount of work that went into making that possible. Some really sophisticated systems.

Yes. And I can tell you that Adam and I have both been transported back to the same place at the same time.

Yes. To the, Colonel technical discussion by, Bonwick senior.

By Jeff Bonwick's dad who, walking us through the basically, the the the these Victorian systems. And in particular, that they had to pressurize these tubes. This the the I remember the squirrels were a major problem, eating eating these lead pipes or whatever.

Yeah. No. This was bad. This bear is kind of very so the, you know, they're used to these pictures, long ago of, like, you look at the the telephone poles and there are just bajillions of wires. And so the great innovation was to take all these wires and pack them in a tube and they used paper as an insulator and they put it in these lead pipes and the squirrels like to chew on the lead pipes.

Right.

There were like DSL lines that people were needing to connect it on that still were going getting routed through this kind of connectivity. Yeah. It was wild.

And when he he described how the party lines work.

Yeah. Yeah.

And wasn't that the because didn't DSL never work? I was who's at whose house did DSL never work? It wasn't your house. I feel like there's someone in our immediate circle had, like, a house where DSL simply could not work. Yeah. I think it's right. Frankly?

Because they were getting, like, the bounce off of the

They're getting the bounce because they had the last line and on the on what was an old party line. Yeah. And everything else have been clipped away. Sure. And I I've just got I I visualize Bonwick's dad at a whiteboard with, like, a diagram of a squirrel. Am I making that up? Is that an implanted memory?

No. For, I you know what? Let's say it's true. It feels true to me. Yeah. Oh, sorry. The other talk, Brian, that this reminds me of, I'm from, this is about, 4 years ago, we were doing the hardware hacking, you know, 2 day, 3 day event. There was a guy who was talking about freaking elevators, which apparently like so, elevators still use, some of these antiquated systems. So if folks Google up, Will Caruana, he's written a bunch and talked a bunch about, phone freaking for elevators.

a while. Is this Your honor. Yeah. Exact exactly. Yeah. Now you you would think after our, after the the the the Dave Hicks, Dave Lightman fiasco and after the attorneys gave you the stern talking to in

our That's right.

Several episodes ago.

Yeah. I, also, like, yeah, if that book, like, definitely go visit 1 of the 2 telephone museums if you can. There's 1 in Maine and 1 in Seattle. And the Seattle one's bigger, and I haven't been there yet. So, you know, saying what's going on for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I remember one in Maine, and they were actually shutting down a a temporary exhibit on phone freaking, with, like from partly, I think, based on this book. And, they let me peek around in it, before it got shut down for good, so that was really cool too.

That sounds really neat. That's a great recommendation. Yeah. That's a that that is that is a great recommendation.

Alright. I'll let someone else talk now.

It sounds good. Ian, you're you're, what do you got for us? You've always got good stuff for us.

Yeah. With the exception of masters of doom, which seems like it was a, a nudge.

Well, you know, if if if you loved it, you you can still give that recommendation.

But, it's true. It was there was definitely a unreliable narrator involved, I believe. Yeah. The first that I've got to recommend, was a find at The Last Bookstore in LA. So if you're in downtown LA, it's worth checking out The Last Bookstore.

Oh, it wasn't actually like the final bookstore in the in the city and county of Los Angeles. This is just called the last bookstore.

It is confusingly titled names the last bookstore, but there are more than 1 bookstores in LA, thankfully. The book is called The Mousetriver Chronicles, the True Life Adventures of 2 First Time Entrepreneurs, by John Lusk and Kyle Harrison.

This

this is a fun one. It's, 22 people graduate from Wharton in 99, and one of them has done like a for the final kind of presentation. They pitched a business in which they're producing mice that look like the head of a golf club as a novelty item, and they decide that instead of going to work for a large consulting company, they're going to move to San Francisco and try and make this, computer accessory a reality. Yeah. It's it's interesting to see, like, all the the differences in doing hardware then compared to now, but also the differences in, like, information availability because there's a number of mistakes made that is like, oh, yeah.

Yeah. I have already ordered it. That looks that that looks just grand. That looks terrific. I also the it so it sounds like so they wrote it themselves. I mean, this is this is them describing their own favorite demos.

It is the 2 of them who wrote it. I, I believe they're still working in the industry and going on to have some pretty interesting careers. But they yeah. It's also there's, like, 2 other things that are kinda interesting about it. One is this kinda like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern esque nature of it because

Oh.

This is all happening in in 9, 9, 2000 in San Francisco, and then they have, like, some of their friends at Wharton have decided to go and either start or join tech companies, and they're kinda watching the tech bubble from, like, an adjacent, like, viewpoint. So that's fine.

Ian, are you first of all, I love that. Are you making that reference for my benefit? I mean, I feel like this is one of these references that I'm Adam, do I make this reference more frequently than others?

Yes. I think that's fair.

Yeah. Okay. So I'm not sure if it but I I personally, I love that. Just that I not having this reference. I go back to me, but I love the Rosencrantz and Guilden certain effect of, like, you've got these kinda, like, these 2 people making a mouse shaped like a golf club. And meanwhile, Hamlet is going on behind them of, like, the dotcom bubble. I just Ian, this sounds great.

Yeah. It was a really enjoyable one for me. I I thought this is a this is a good pickup.

That is awesome. Do you have, any others in your we we can keep keep on rocking, by the way. But we we we can

Yeah. I have a bunch. So, next up, I've got, Hatching Twitter, a true story of money, power, friendship, and betrayal by Nick Bilton.

Oh, here we go. Okay. We're on the we are on we we've arrived at the Twitter subtheme.

Yeah. So I did I looked through the previous episodes, and I don't think this one had been recommended. No. Probably in 2014. Oh, interesting.

Well, speaking of Rosencrantz at Gilmster, I mean, this is when Adam and I stumble onto the stage in 2007, into the into the offices of Obvious. And I come out of that thinking, my god, I'm never gonna use that with a bunch of clowns. And Adam comes out of that being like, I gotta go reserve AHL before the American Hockey League does. Yeah. Well, sure about that.

Am I misremembering that this came in from the socials from, like, an Oxide and Friends listener? I feel like someone sent this into us. Maybe not.

That was might have been me.

There you go.

I just Oh. I

Our biggest fan.

Exactly. I I was definitely, some some key lines that I mean, like, no matter how bonkers you think Musk is, he's more bonkers than that. And the the the Right. Exactly. And I know you're thinking to yourself, well, I think he's pretty bonkers.

This sounds great.

You will read it quickly.

Sounds like a page read.

And I will say that more or less I okay. I'm gonna say this, and I'm I won't say more than this. I'm gonna say every single person in this book comes across as unsympathetic, except for someone who is a regular Oxide and Friends listener. That's all I'm gonna say. The There's Who comes across as very sympathetic and is very sympathetic because, of course, we've got great taste in podcasts, but, everyone else comes across as as really quite unsympathetic.

Awesome. I definitely go check that out. That sounds fantastic.

Yeah. I would love to try to coax Kate Conger and or Ryan Maccon here to come talk about it. I would, but, you know, I I keep trying to tag them on Blue Sky in a way that now I'm just right is coming across as creepy, so I need to stop doing it. But it's like, boy, I sure wish. Tag Kate Conger and Ryan Mac.

Right. Right. The shareholder lawsuit. Right. Right. Which is, you're just like, right.

This thing goes from like, this is awesome. This is like a hostile takeover to like a hostile takeover from the other perspective.

Because his four because right. His, his offer was like 42069 or something. Like made on a whim.

Right. And the, and so going into the details there, it, it's so in particular, that's how we have all these like text messages. And you've got like JCal, Jason Kalkanis, telling Musk, you have my sword. And all this other just nonsense comes from the the the fact that there was, like, discovery in this case.

Right.

So you have all these, like That's

a good

facts of, like, text messages that these yahoos all sent to one another. And, you know, David Sacks and all these other morons that are, it's it's really wild. And I gotta say, like, I think the the I I'm hoping there's gonna be a sequel for when this thing is like I mean, Twitter is, Twitter's on fire, but it's not yet destroyed. I think Twitter can go a lot lower. Anyway, highly recommended. Highly recommended.

How about Tom? Friend of the pod.

Is it is it okay if we don't talk about Twitter anymore? It's too painful.

Yes. Yeah. We have this is now yes. For the we we did this now is the we have the end of this Twitter discussion. I'm so sorry. Tom and all other sympathetic Twitter folks.

Yeah. Anyway, long time caller, hardly ever a listener.

Fair. Yeah. That's fair.

Hope choking on my diet coke.

So, 2 particular books I wanna mention. 1 is called The Maniac. Have have I talked about this?

I don't think so.

It's a it's a book about, John Von Neumann, And it's all it's all based on factual stuff, but it's presented fictionally from first person, first person stories about Von Neumann where the people telling the stories are other really famous people. Oh, wild. And it's a really good book. And all this trivia about von von Neumann from, you know, the computer stuff to all kinds of math stuff and atomic energy and yada yada yada. So excellent book.

It is like Von Neumann fan fiction? I'm trying to, like, like, what is the pitch to the publisher look like for this one? I'm just this is

I don't know, but it it ended up on Obama's favorite list or something. So Yeah. Pretty good.

Yeah. I saw I saw

that, Chip War was there as well.

I love that guy. Yeah. I really do. I am sorry. I just I I I miss him. Yeah. Yes. Barack Obama, our president.

Yeah. So Von Neumann, of course, was a Martian. Right? So clearly not

Yeah. Right.

Not actually not actually human, but very interesting guy. So another book which it's kinda cheating because I don't think anyone can get it anymore. Shift happens. Have you seen this?

No. We do this all the time. We do books that can't people can't get it anymore unless you really truly can't get it. What what's it called?

Shift happens. I just dropped it in. It's a history of keyboards, and it's the most beautiful book I possess. It is Wow. It's going to last 100 of years. It's all chock full of full of color photographs, incredibly detailed history of all this stuff. It's a huge labor of love.

Oh, so this is really out of print. You really do mean that this is unattainable because this is a Kickstarter that has sold out. Oh, interesting.

Right. So if you ever see one other than in my office, grab it.

Tom, I guarantee you, Brian and I are both currently trying to outbid each other for the loan copy on eBay.

Oh, no. That's not me at all. That's not me at all. I you should let that other bidder win, though. That would be discourteous to Very generous of it. Exactly. Yeah. This looks

It's it's really, really good.

That is really it it that okay. The this has got me kind of, like, mesmerized because, like, the keyboard is the the keyboard has actually kind of, like, changed the least of all of the accoutrements of computing.

Yeah. But it's it's, it had a it took a while to settle down. And in particular, the shift key, the where it gets the title, the shift key had all kinds of different names and purposes and subtle side effects, and it's very interesting.

The entire they said there are there are 37 Easter eggs hiding in the book.

Yeah. I'm not I haven't studied it hard enough to find those.

Okay. Got a It's it's an amazing book. This does look amazing. Yeah. Wow. This looks amazing. Okay. Yeah. So you know what? When you were saying that that I I didn't think you need to apologize for this book. I know I think, you know, apology kind of accepted. This is really Yeah. You you really toast us.

Total unobtanium. Yeah.

Total unobtanium. Yep.

So, totally different, set of things. I you've probably heard of Slow Horses, the Apple TV show? No. No? It's a great, it's a great spy show.

Okay.

But slow horses get their name from being in Slough House where all where all that Mi 5 rejects gets sent to spend their time. But, anyway, there's a in addition to the TV show, which is great, there's 8 volumes of books, which I've started reading, and they're very good. So looking for slower horses.

Perfect. Is this fiction, nonfiction? What what is a Fiction.

Yeah. It's all fiction. Fiction.

Nice. Wait. And what's the I mean, it's on Slough House, there's novels. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. There it is.

Yeah. So that's they're really good.

You know, I used to really like to buy novels when I was a kid. I'm not sure if that's because, like, it was the cold war or not. That just makes me a a a product of the cold war. Or is that a but, yeah, this looks good and more attainable than the

unobtainable keyboard book. Right? Than the book with, like, a 120 known copies. Like, the Gutenberg Bible is yeah. Right. Gutenberg Bible being more accessible. Exactly. Exactly. Tom, good stuff. So Yeah. I'm gonna drop one more in here. It's The Last Philosopher in Texas. K. And it's, it appeals to me because of my border El Paso, heritage or whatever, but written by a Chicano guy who grew up in the basement of the local synagogue in El Paso. Very interesting stuff.

Interesting. And it also, this is fiction as well.

Yeah. Yeah. And and Good. Some of it is kinda poetic and some kinda magical realism. So it's it's and it's not really very finished, but a lot of whack of ideas in there. So good stuff. Cool. Tom, that's great.

Tom, I think it's fair to say you are an avid reader.

Yeah. I've been doing that for 7 to 6 or so.

Right. Right. You add it all up. And you, and do you have, like, books physically in your possession? Is that your are you a a physical books kind of a person?

I'm mostly ebook now. But for for, like, my computer history stuff, I like to get the rule book. I don't know why. But

And, Tom, did you wanna give a teaser about your idea for a podcast episode? Because Adam and I both think this is a very good idea.

Yeah. So so we we met last week, and I I suggested that they come over to do a a show in my home office where they rummage around my home office for for goodies. And I'll explain what

This is like American Pickers for computer manuals. It's I I I it and so, Adam, we're gonna turn it into, like, a buddy movie. We're gonna really gonna do it out. So we good.

I I mean, in my mind, this is already converted into a heist movie where we walk away with shift happens.

I no. No. Not in front of Tom when I tell you. Not in front of Tom. Oh, it is. DM it to you privately. I'm telling you. He's not read aloud in that DM. Oh,

man. It's been hard to conceal.

Yeah. Tom, please ignore him. We we look forward to being guesting your unsecure health.

Research on the way out.

With my gigantic backpack.

Exactly. I take this gigantic backpack everywhere. Thank you very much. Now if you may take me take me to your crown jewels, that which I this would be great, I think. Not the heist. The the heist that

No. No. No. No. No. No.

No. No. Not the heist at all. Well, please, it's the other thing. The thing that's the cover for the heist, that'll be well, that's all blown. Oh, congratulations, Adam. Ruined it for everybody. But Tom, those are great recommendations. Thanks. Alright. Who else do we have? We had

ahh, Merriman. Merriman Industry is up first.

Hey, guys. Actual name is Xander.

Okay, Xander.

I have 2 books, that I'll recommend really quickly, and I'm a little bit shocked if neither one has ever been recommended before. And the first one is really a callback to the, Phone Freak book, and it is The Idea Factory by, John Gertner about Bell Labs in the great age of American innovation. And yeah. I mean, obviously, it goes over all the technological innovations that came out, but it also talks a lot about, like, where these scientists came from, like the state of science education in the 1st part of 20th century. It talks about, like, the tenuous relationship between, like, the AT and T monopoly and the US government, and how that went back and forth.

That sounds it sounds like it that that does sound fun. It sounds like it it can kind of accompany our you know, we we obviously read How Life Works by Philip Ball and learning about, you know, the, the hyper ovulating frogs and just, you know, I feel like it's just takes a couple of twists of evolution for the spiders to be in control. So why not?

Yeah. I also I also like it because it only works as a book because you can emphasize with the spider when they're described. But if you were, like, watching it as a movie, you would probably just be caught up in the fact that it's a spider and it's maybe a little bit revolting to humans. So it's maybe one of the rare books that can only work as a book and could probably never be adapted.

That that that's always refreshing. You hopefully, the book well, I mean, the so hopefully, the book doesn't do so well that they turned into a movie that's terrible.

Yeah.

Yeah. This would this looks like a good one.

Cool. Alright. Thanks, everyone.

Yeah. Thank you. This would be good stuff.

And, now Oliver.

Now Oliver.

Now me. Hey, Gen Xers. I had a couple of different ones, and I kinda, like, threw them out because I realized, they were all technical books. And I felt like I was at my usual meet up book club. So I got a new list of books. And the first one

books are good, by the way. You can do technical books. Usually yeah.

We we we do like technical books. It's fair.

Well, so the technical book that I would that I prepared a spiel for, is actually kind of a product book. It's, Honeycomb, released a book with O'Reilly called Observability Engineering.

Oh, yeah. Interesting.

Jerry Majors and Liz Fong, wrote it. Mhmm. And we read this with, my local DevOps days chapter about a year ago. And to me, it was sort of my first introduction into the philosophy of observability practice, especially, you know, if you're coming from a world where you don't have a lot of really deep instrumentation and then seeing what you actually do. Really highly recommend this book. I'll drop the link here. Oh, yeah. Brian, maybe to it. And not only that. Yeah.

That's great.

Yeah. No.

So I

had a really good time with that book a while ago. I was looking through our list, and I was like, do I have any other ones that I can actually put through in there? And none that I finished. It is the only, Boston DevOps meetup, book club group book that I've finished. But I do have others.

you

know, obviously the Manhattan Project really took off. And, there was a solid 3 years there where everyone was or 4 years where everyone's kind of quaking in their boots all around the world waiting for the other shoe to drop. And this book is about the SBNRs involved, which is pretty well documented, but also just how just how how, honestly, despite all the lack of resources and just sheer will and depression, they were able to put together a, really competent nuclear program, which was been out of it several years before the French or the British got it. So that was an interesting book. And, the other book

is on, have we talked about biohazard before here? Have we this is by Ken Alibek on the Soviet bioweapons program. Just a

I think you wrote me that book in, like, 2002 or something like that. I don't think we've talked about it.

That's another just a terrific book, and really quite, in terms of, like, the a kind of a skinflint weapons program or weapons program on the cheap. This is they're trying to use in particular, they were trying to use, smallpox as a vector for Marburg, which is just, like,

why

and they assumed that the Americans were also doing the same thing. And it was only after the end of the Cold War, it was just, like, no, that was just that was just Soviet. That was just you guys.

That's just you. We didn't. That's just

No. We didn't quite wow. You guys were super into this whole cold war thing. We were all but, but make it good, so, Oliver, what prompted you to read Red Cloud at dawn? How did we get from AI to Red Cloud at dawn? That that happened Oh, yeah. That was transition for me.

That was quite a jump. Sorry. Well, I was just thinking about, you know, at the time, it was such a huge development, like an earth shattering development. And Yeah. These days, it seems like a lot of comparisons are being made, in terms of, like, general intelligence, or superintelligence to that kind of

Kind of world ending events.

World ending, potentially, you know, apocalyptic sea change. And so that was me making the

the I think it's a good jump to make because I I mean, I do think it's, like, worthwhile comparing, like, this kind of fear of a computer program to Tsar Bomba, which where there was, like, a legitimate concern that they're gonna light the atmosphere on fire.

Yeah. I mean and that was that was a hydrogen bomb. That wasn't even that late.

It would, it was not that late, but I think at that point, like, I think that was the one where they kinda scared themselves. Like, that's still, I think, the largest nuclear detonation of all time. The and I think that there was like, okay. Time to time to come off the gas pedal on this one here. But this looks like it looks like a great read. Sorry. Didn't mean to take us down as Soviet weapons.

Oh, no. No. No. No. Not at all.

No. That's really interesting. I see in the description there that they tried to weaponize aids. So that's

Yeah. They were. Yeah. You know, with the sorry. From MS. Yeah. But we were all doing that. Right? That wasn't just no. No. No. Oh, that that was just us too. Okay. Okay. Alright.

Well, first of all, based. But, second of all, that actually brings you to another book, which I think is sort of related to the the sort of tech access, tech economy, political economy access that we've had a lot of in 2024, which is called More Money Than God. My friend who works in in London had to read this for his economics course. And, I thought it was funny that at the London School of Economics, you have to, like, read a book that just shits on hedge funds. But it's really, really well done because, not right, I think it is, because they go into the psychology of each individual sort of, like, superstar group, in these hedge funds up from the fifties sixties to whenever this was published, like 2010, so right after the great financial crisis, and their methods.

Interesting. Yeah.

I think a lot of people who are in the the the the computing or high technology canon sort of look up to certain individuals and their methods and their their life and times and things. And then this was, like, the same thing, but for financial wizards and examining their psychology and whether it's, you know, morally justifiable and that sort of thing. But really, really good book, I think.

Yeah. I would also recommend When Genius Failed, which is on LTCM in particular, Long Term Capital Management, on by Roger Lowenstein, another very good book, that takes one of these I like the fact that you've got all the the these different chapters on, just eyeballing the chapters, there's, there's some good stuff here.

Oh, it's long term capital. Yeah, that was in

the book as well.

Yeah, no LTCM is in, is, is a chapter in More Money Than God, and it's a, it's a very, there's an entire, I mean, that is a that whole thing is is wild. That looks good. I would like to point out in defense of business education that if you look at, like, the the the curriculum, in, like, the the the case study approach, they actually spend a lot of time talking about how businesses fail. How well that's internalized is an open question. But, yeah, it's good stuff.

If I can offer one last thing, which is in a book You may. Before I

Yes. So,

there is this project, that this person I connected with on LinkedIn, and now I'm forgetting their name, which is a bit of me. But, it's called I don't know where actually, where else I'd possibly share this. But it's called OATS. And they're starting from bytecode going up to, you know, instruction sets and writing our compiler and writing an assembly, and their their approach to teaching is really, really fun and novel, I think. So I just liked it.

Yeah. That's it. That is good. Like, I think you're right. I think you're like, look, this is not a book. I just don't know where else I'm gonna drop it. So this is coming in right now. I think this is a good one. It looks good. That looks yeah. That looks neat.

Alright. Well, thank you. I'll let someone else know.

Yeah. You bet. Absolutely. So I'm giving you a book other books on your list. I've got, I do have one more.

I got I got one more that's it was a pretty weird one, but I really enjoyed it. Just a weird thing to say about it. So it it was a book called Remembered Prisoners of a Forgotten War. It was interviews with Korean War POWs.

And I

knew just embarrassingly little about the Korean War. Interesting. And so it was a great education about the Korean War for me, you know, someone who knew very little about it. But then apparently, Korean War POWs were really treated very poorly. And in fact, not just POWs, but veterans.

Oh, interesting. So it's like a bibliography from a book of fiction. Yes. Yes. That's wild. Yeah.

Yeah.

So anyway, you you not

not for everyone, but yeah. I mean, I didn't know anything about this war and, it was a really neat one. And, you know, something from from, again, interviews with all these POWs, with all these veterans, done, you know, 2,021,001.

Yeah. I gotta say, like, I didn't know a lot about the history of Korea and or the Korean War until Samsung. And the, you know, there's I I I want her to read this. This would be really interesting because obviously this is very current history, and this is where there's still, you know, the shadows of that war definitely linger.

So Absolutely.

That looks really good. So I one that I read and actually made such an impact on me, I read I wrote a blog entry about it, but I finally read IBM and the Holocaust, Adam. This is a a book that had been on and I like I I think I don't begrudge them the title because, like, it is about you know what I mean? I mean, boy, how do I how do I walk around this way?

It's a heavy title?

Full heavy? Exactly. They, like people will see the title and they're like, oh, god. Like, I just don't know if I'm in the mood for a holocaust book. But it's not the the the the I I put this book off for too long is what I'd like to say.

That's late. Yeah. Wow.

That's late in the day. Yeah.

It is late in the day. And the, but I thought this was a really important book. And I would say don't let the I mean, not that one would, but like don't let the don't let the title let you put it off because this is not, it doesn't have the kind of the anguish to it. It it is is really but it is very relevant to us. Yeah.

So I I great recommendation part because I I think I have put it off. You've recommended in the past, but I put it off in part because, you know, it sounds heavy. So I will no longer put it off.

Yeah. It's quite super light. It's just like it's a it's a it's a fun little jaunt through Nazi Germany.

Bouncy beach read. Take seconds of bouncy beach read through Nazi Germany.

I I know. It's like it's like, how do you like, and I'm trying to, like, yeah, how do you express the fact that, like, no. No. It's not nearly as holocausty as it's made out to be. It's you're just like, Nazi Germany is not as holocausty as you may is I mean, like, where's that one going? So, yeah. I I I don't want you know, you know what I'm trying to say?

A 100%. I mean, don't don't let the gravity kinda put you off. We're free.

Put you off. That's right. That's exactly what it is. Don't let the gravity put you off. And, and I think also because there's a lot that that that whole episode can really teach us, and can teach us about kinda what our responsibilities are.

they're irrelevant today where, you know, trade to China, trade to Russia, is going through a bunch of intermediaries. And there are tech companies that are probably being caught up in that where there's it's going through an intermediate whether they know it or not.

Whether they know it or not. And the the the and the and in IBM's case, I think you've got responsibility to know it. Right? And in IBM's case, like, they definitely know it. But a good read and and and good good guidance, I think, for us all. And not too call a costy. So, you know.

There's something for everybody. It's something for everyone.

Yeah. Get me out of here. Oh, this is good. This has been a good, a good good run around here. We got a lot of good stuff. I feel like this. Yeah. Yeah. You and I go

too long. Enjoy this. I can't believe I mean, it it over a year, but I mean but shame on us.

Shame on us. We did do a book club book though. We did we we did do, you know, we did do how life works. I and I time to plug, you have remastered that episode.

I've remastered all new audio.

All new Dolby surround sound.

That's right.

Doctor Greg Kostas, you've never heard him before. But I I loved that discussion with Greg. And, I actually, actually, I'll do a little, a a a bonus recommendation. Alright. I read, Mukherjee's Song of the Cell. Okay. This is by Siddhartha Mukherjee. Have you read any of his stuff?

No. None.

He wrote The Emperor of Maladies about cancer. Very good book about cancer. And unbelievable writer. A great as a physician and a scientist and a great author, which is like these things don't all come in the same person. And so Sudhakar Mukherjee's, The Song of the Cell, an exploration of medicine in the new human, which I read after How Life Works.

Even less holocausty?

Even less holocausty. That's what it says right, even less holocausty, raved at 11th, Paul. Yeah. Joshua Snick Baerle Right there in the review. It's good stuff. All right. Well, this has been we got a lot of books to go get. I've already bought a couple of them actually. So, the, oh, Oliver dropped in Deck is Dead, Long Live Deck. We've got a whole episode on that, on on That and, like, the 6 deck books I read as part of that.

Yeah. Fortunately, you grew out of it.

I clawed my way out of it, but it took us it took us an episode for sure. And, it to to to get me out of there. But, that's a good one. I'll I'll drop in the the link to that episode, and I wanna drop in, a link to, some oral histories, some Hector Ruiz, and some Morris Chang. We got a bunch of stuff to drop in here.

Great to get the whole team together. That was that was terrific.

It was terrific. And, and I was going back to some more past podcast episodes. It was kind of like a return to the office, founder's mode mashup.

It

was a lot of fun. So Yeah. Anyway, great stuff. And look forward to seeing everyone next time. Thanks, everybody. Thanks.