Personal ED Stories From the Outweigh Archives

before Outweigh was even its own podcast. So Lisa is on maternity leave and I was thinking the other day how Cat is such a big part of our lives now and Lisa too for that matter, and kind of just cool how things work out and you meet people because I met Lisa on Instagram because she had her program Fork the Noise, which was a instrumental piece to

my recovery puzzle. I had struggled with eating disorders and disordered eating patterns and habits since I was a teenager, and Lisa was a big, big reason why I finally had some lightbulbs go off because I was so in deep with a lot of disordered behaviors that I actually thought they were healthy. I didn't realize they were disordered. And again the lightbulb kind of went off when I was doing some of Lisa's fork the Noise Curriculum, and it all started to make sense and I had to

unlearn a lot and rewire my brain. I had already been in the process of that after reading the book Brain over Binge, because ben Jing was one of my behaviors. But Lisa really helped me, and from that I thought I had this idea for the Outwegh podcast, and then we knew we were going to do a four part series that would live on my fourth Things podcast, Four Things with Amy Brown, and that's it. It was gonna

be a four part series, four Saturdays. We'd release an episode for like the month, and we'd be good to go call it a day. Well, it ended up going so well that we were like, Okay, this is so cool. Outweigh can be its own podcast and it's a passion of ours, Like it's not something we were like, oh, this is something where we can have a podcast and

make money off of it and different things. No, like if we never made a dime from Outweigh, It would be amazing because we were able to share so much of our stories and get other people on, so that you out there, if you happen to be dealing with any of this on any given day, you can pull up a podcast and know that you're not alone. And I've been able to do that with other podcasts that don't have anything to do with eating disorders. Sometimes I don't even know how you found that way. Are you

an original listener? Were you searching up eating disorders and our recovery or disordered eating and an outweigh came up as an option, And if so, welcome, And I hope that this is a good resource, a good tool for you to have in your back pocket if you happen to be going through some things as you're navigating towards recovery or you're trying to stay in recovery or whatever

that looks like for you. With other things I've had in life that don't have anything to do with this, I've searched up podcasts and found some amazing help that way. And I don't even know who these podcasters are. Sometimes the guests that they're having on but what they had to say met me where I was at that moment, and it was exactly what I needed. And suddenly I

knew it wasn't so isolating. I wasn't alone. So I want you to know that's why we started out Wigh, And in the beginning, we didn't know Cat Defata, And now she's a big part of that WAG. She has her own podcast on our network called You Need Therapy. She now co hosts the fifth thing of my podcast with me called the Amy and Cat Chat. So she's a big part of our podcasting world now. And we wouldn't have met her if Lisa and I hadn't decided to do Outweigh, And it's so cool that got to

meet her. Because of that. Lisa flew to Nashville from New York to record for two days straight and we booked a lot of interviews and had all kinds of things ready to go so that we could just knock it all out in two days and then get everything edited and loaded up and put it up on the podcast for an April release. And so it was March, right before COVID we were recording all this. We had no idea that COVID was even coming and was going

to rock our world and change our lives wherever. But we were at the Bobby Bones Show studio recording and Cat happens to have an office nearby, and she had emailed us saying that she would love to come on as an expert since she's a licensed therapist that specializes

and eating disorders. And she walked on over to the studios and she recorded with us, and it was so cool, and I remember thinking like, Oh, I just love the way this girl puts stuff and she makes it easy to understand and she's not intimidating at all, but she's so smart. And she too has had an eating disorder as well, and then now she's trying to help people through it by specializing in it and working with her clients on it, and then yeah, making it a main

feature of her podcast. And she's just awesome. So I thought, what a cool thing to do, maybe because we might have new listeners have never heard the O G Outweigh episodes, Let's play Cat's original interview with Lisa and myself. So that's what we're gonna do right now, the O G Cat Defata interview that we did, and in case you are new. I just want to say the reason why this podcast is called Outweigh is because a life without

disordered eating outweighs everything. And I hope if you're not to a place where you truly believe that that one day you will get there, because it is so true, a life without disordered eating outweighs everything. And for so long, for so many years of my life, I prioritized food and obsessing over food and exercise and avoiding social gatherings because of food. I was prioritizing everything else, and my relationship suffered, and memories that I have I suffered my

anxiety around food. I mean, I was definitely suffering. So just know that you're not alone, and that once you can get to a point of truly believing that a life without all this junk will outweigh everything, it'll be awesome. And there is hope because if I can do it, Lisa can do it, Cat can do it. I don't want to be cliche and say, well, then you can do it, because it's not easy and it will take hard work, but you can rewire your brain and you can get there, and my hope is that you do. So.

Right now, we're going to play Cat's interview. Here you go enjoy. So we've got Katherine de Fata in the studio with us, So you're a guest that's actually here in person. A lot of our interviews have been over the phone just because of where people are in the country, but you're right here in Nashville with us, which is

super cool. And you're a therapist here in town. But you specialize in eating disorders, and so I talked about it on the podcast and you listen to Four Things with Amy Brown, and you sent me a note and said that if you could be a part of it, just like you know, and we started emailing back and forth, and I was like, yes, can you come to the

studio and and let's record some stuff. So just before we hit record, we were having an off air conversation about eating disorder being an addiction and when I'm trying to talk to my husband about it, or when I was eating a lot and I just felt like I couldn't stop, and he didn't understand. I would say, and I don't know if I was right and how I was saying it at all, but to me it felt like I was like, I don't know, It's like an

alcoholic can't stop drinking. I was like, but you can take alcohol out of your life and survive, Like with food, I can't eliminate food from my life because you need food to survive. I just remember that being like some language out thrown out. I'm sure I heard it somewhere, but that's I mean, that's comparing alcoholism is seen as as an addiction. So one of the things that you asked me was what's difference between self work and therapy

with an actual therapist? And I thought about it, and I actually like, I had a different answer, and then I was like, that's not right. The difference is the relationship, and the relationship between a therapist and a client is like the number one predictor of if it's going to be successful, Like if you hate your therapist, you probably won't get a lot done. So that goes into just attachment theory and what that means. And do you guys

know what that is. No. Attachment theory comes from this guy. His name is John Bowlby, and he was doing research in orphanages and he was noticing that like these babies that were getting everything that they needed like shelter, food, water, they were dying or they're getting really really sick, but there's no reason for it except they weren't being touched, so there's no touch at all, which is crazy. And what he came up was that a relationship is necessary

to survive. He did a lot of research and there's a lot of stuff that I won't go into because it might be a little bit boring, but he came up with these three attachment styles, secure, anxious, avoidant, And we get those attachment styles based on the relationships we usually have with our primary caregiver. So if I have a really great, loving environment and all my needs are met all the time, I'm going to have a secure attachment.

But and that's the majority of people, But also I see it on a spectrum to the majority of people do have a sect relationship. Yeah, that's what they say in the research, but also doing air quotes and they can't see that's what they say. However, I think really people are on a spectrum with this. So and then anxious attachment would be when sometimes your needs are being met, sometimes they're not, and so you don't know whether to

trust or not to trust. And then avoidant is when your needs aren't really being met, and so you kind of developed this idea of like I gotta go do everything on my own, Like I gotta go figure everything on my own. Okay, I'm gonna interject just a second, because I do have two adopted children from Haiti, and some people may know that, some people may not depending on what they've listened to. And I had not heard and described as attachment theory, but I know that my

kids and I've witnessed it. They have attachment disorder, yes, okay, and the lack of stimulation that my son had, I now see how it comes out in certain times, like how he responds and reacts, and then even my daughter, this is just is this even the same thing? Okay? So I'm just making sure on the same page because I also want to be aware of, like now that i'm their primary caregiver, that I'm focused on whatever they're

going to need from me. But there's already walls built, there's already My daughter came here at ten, she's twelve now, but day one from her arrival was resistance. I can handle this on my own. I don't need you should basically give us the heisman anytime. I mean, it's been two years of breaking it down and we're finally getting there, but they're still testing, like I don't really trust you. Are you going to really love me? What about if I do this, You're still gonna love me? What if

I Okay, I'm gonna try this out. And so my husband and I just have to remain consistent and so Yes, at first when you talked about attachment theory, was like, no, I don't know what you're talking about them, Like, way does I get I do know this, but I'm also trying to think of my childhood and how it was with my So think about this. You've talked about your own like issues with food and disordered eating, all that I have that to think about as I explain this

kind of where your story pops up. Also, this is going to be helpful because you're probably doing the things you need to do with your children without even knowing that you're doing them, just because you're a good caring person, So you can develop a certain attachment style. Good news

is it's not static. It's fluid. So going back to just describing this and how it relates to what we were talking about in the beginning, is people develop these attachments and they're all based on feeling like loved, like you belong and so I have developed my own theory that we all are born with these two desires to be ourselves and then to have love and belonging, and throughout our lives the desire for love and belonging becomes very very, very very strong, and so we drop parts

of ourselves or pick parts of ourselves or pick things up that aren't really parts of ourselves to get that love and belonging. And so that's when the addiction comes in. I'll use an example from my life to explain this. So I never felt like I like really really really fit into or had like a thing, or we're special in certain parts of my friend groups, in certain areas in my family, and so I started to do things to get me attention. I attributed that attention to love, right,

I always say, like, any attention is good attention. So, going back to what you said, what's the difference between therapy and self work is a therapist is what we call a secure base, which helps somebody develop a secure attachment style. Because somebody's going to come into my office probably not knowing that they have any of this or any kind of drama I'm going to be that person. Like you're explaining with your daughter, what if I do this, you still love me? What if I yell at you?

Can I still come back? What if I miss a session? What if I tell you that you're wrong? What if I disagree with you? Um? What if I act out? What if I really laps in what you told me not to do? Are you still going to let me come back in? And the answer is always yes, yes, yes, with safe boundaries, and it helps them learn that like, hey, I don't have to be a certain way. I can show up as I am and like I can find love. So when you say you were doing things to get attention,

what were those things? So it depends on which part of my life. Well, let's go ahead and talk about the eaty So in college, Yeah, it's easy for me to talk about this. Now, I didn't know that this was happening, no clue, which most people don't. But I started with a diet, counting calories. And again in my family, all my siblings went and played dan one sports and

I just went to college. And so I felt like I was missing something because didn't have anything that my parents would really brag that much about no fault to them, my parents are great. And so I went on this diet, started losing all this weight. I was getting tons of attention, like tons, you look so good this this whatever. Guys like started talking to me more. And so I attribute that to that of like, Okay, now I fit and now I belong belonging as love, I'm good, And then

I became a shell of a human. Tap into that a little bit more. What were you feeling at that time? Like what I mean, first, you're on the high. What does it mean to be a shell, because you're certainly not a shell today with the vibrants and your radiant ye. So just so that people, because really we're doing this so people don't feel alone. And I feel like with each person that's sharing part of their real story, which you just did, somebody's relating and they're like, wait, tell

me more. I would say. People would always describe me as like loud and bubbly and like fun. I'm a seven on the Instagram, so that which I didn't know what the Instagram was back then. So that's how I

always was. So when I started restricting my food, I ended up restricting every single part of my life because I couldn't go to that party because what if I drank alcohol and their scalaris and alcohol, and then what if I got drunk and then I wanted to eat something that I ate something I shouldn't eat that crippled me. Or I can't go to that that restaurant because I can't eat anything there. Then people are going to ask me like, why aren't you eating and I I don't have

to come up with some excuse. Or I can't go to that thing at night because I have to get up and work out at six am and I need my energy. And so I started cutting things out of my life. I remember the start of my junior year of college. That summer junior to senior year, I like never left my parents house when I came home, and I never saw any of my friends from high school, which we were always very close. I remember I did

one thing. I went to my best friend from high school's birthday party and then started at her house and they all went out. I think it might have been her twenty first birthday, and I went home after her house that everybody else went out, and I went home because I was like, I can't do that. So the thing that got me all this attention, and all of a sudden, then I was like, what's the point of the attention because I'm not letting myself engage with anybody.

And then I came back that next year, my senior year, and I didn't do anything. I didn't I was in authority. I like would skip some of our date parties or I would go I remember one time I also was really into school. I like I went to a party. It was a swaps which one that you would like dress up like and where a costume, And I like loved doing that, and I like took my note cards to the bar and like study for my test. You just like withdrew and lost interest in all the things

that you love to do. My friends did not love that. So that's a part where that's just part of your story of what you did to get attention to feel belonging. But then you realize, like it's kind of like it goes up, up up, and it's like this is where I'm getting belonging love, And then all of a sudden, you just it's like we just I think it happened all of us, and you crash and burn because you realize you have nothing around you and what is this for?

So then what do you do well? And I love looking back at this because I don't know you'all's experiences, but from my experience, I had no clue that I was struggling, so like, not a clue. I thought I was like on top of the world, like this actually makes me want to cry. But my senior year, I thought that I was killing it, like I had gotten into all these graduate programs. I was like, gonna go

do all these things. And looking back, like another thing I did that I have so much grief over it is I skipped my last date party ever to come back to Nashville and run the half marathon. I can run that marathon whenever I want. I can never go back and have my last party with my best friends. I did not know that. I still was like, yeah, I'd rather go run this marathon. This is my lifestyle.

I'm healthy. I don't like to drink, almost like this grandiose sense of self healthy so us yea, And I probably I was a brat, yes, like because yeah, because I wouldn't judge what people are eating. You're going to eat that? And I'm like, in my head, I wish I could eat that, Like I wish I could eat that, but I have eating distor. As we talk a lot about how you have so much control, I had no control, right well, it was like not like I could eat that, Like wow, look at me, I have so much willpower

for not eating. But I don't really think I did have willpower. Because I had willpower, I would eat a doughnut. But that's what people would say to me. I'm like, I wish I could be like Catherine, and like, you don't want to be like me. Yeah, I know, because they don't really know the struggle. That's why it's important, and we'll reiterate it now since it's kind of coming up. That's why it's important. You never know what's going on

inside someone's body. You might think it's all they've got it all figured out and their life is together, and then you can reinforce their behavior by complimenting something about their body, and then that keeps them on that hamster wheel and really you have no idea you contributed to the problem just by giving the compliment. We've been trying to just get it into people and even myself over

and over, to stop complimenting on people's bodies. There's so many other things that we could probably compliment that like do that's not necessary. It's kind of story quick. So this is why I started to look at before I really got into being like a eating disorder therapist. This is like, I have a shame about this now, but again I'm trying to not have that. I went to grad school, I went to Vanderbilt in Nashville, and thinking I was going to be eating disorder therapists, and guess

what I wanted to specialize in. I wanted to work with specifically binge eating disorder and help them lose weight, which is not how you do. It's not okay. I could understand, not understand, not understanding. Yes, now I'm like, oh my gosh, maybe explain why though that that wouldn't

be Yeah, that may not hand it. Yeah, because I know more of that because I've been doing I've been working alongside people, like he said, where y'all understand why that would be bad, but someone else might not get why. That's probably not like the best thing. So it's not

about the weight. And so with binge eating disorder, there's something else going on, and if I help them lose weight, their issues aren't going away like the reason that they're binging, which would be the reason why any of us do behavior that we would classify as an addiction. It's not about the alcohol, it's not about the food, it's not about any of that. It's about what's underneath of it.

And so yeah, it might be a side effect that if these people do the work and I help them through whatever it is that they're trying to work through, they might lose weight. But that's not the goal because if I just take the weight away, everything else still And most people that are in it don't see it as a underlying problem, like they see it as either binge problem I can't stop when I eat, or they see it as a weight problem I'm overweight because I eat.

Not going any deeper into why do you think that there's anything to the binging and it being like in the brain. We've touched on brain over binge, But there's there's obviously with what you're saying with the addiction at all coming back to attachment and love, right, So it's like all goes back to some of that in a way.

But for me, I mean, I know that I had issues with my dad leaving when I was younger, um, but I know that I also was introduced to dieting at an extremely young age, and I know when I started dieting and then that led to restriction and binging. But I didn't really realize I was binging at the time because I didn't know really I was in high school. Then I knew I would over eat so that I would perge, but it wasn't all of the time. But I knew that it was wrong, even so that I

went to my mom and said, I need help. I'm throwing up and I don't know where this came from or why, but I I need help with this. So then she got me into therapy, and then that led to therapy all through high school and college. But it was always just focused on my dad having left. Nothing ever resonated with me. And then I quit throwing up for years. But what I realized in there is I

was still binging the whole time. But again I knew that it was not right because I was like, I just went to literally like four different fast food restaurants in like one stop, Like that's not normal. So or if I was on a road trip somewhere, I would stop at like multiple gas stations and like just eat the entire two hours. That was my drive from Austin to College Station, which is where I went to Texas a m. So I remember a lot of those road trips.

Was I ate the entire time, whether it was a gas station sonic like, I had different stops and I would go through and be like okay, and then next day I would just do slim fast or something. But it never I was still in therapy at that point, and it never was getting anywhere other than somehow I stopped the throwing up and it was gone, but I kept the binging. And then when I read Brain over Binge, I've been telling Lisa like, it just made sense to me.

She talks about rewiring your brain and that you just go to a binge and you have to start denying the binges. Because I started restricting at such a young age, it trained my brain that I didn't know when I was going to get food again, so it kept forcing

me to over eat and then I would binge. And so I started implementing that over a year ago and that worked for me, and that was the first thing where it really made Since now I'm sure there's underlying issues with what's going on, but I do want to talk to you about how that worked for me. But about five years ago, when my mom died, even though I had not purged in twelve years, I had binged

but not purged. The day after my mom died, I ate dinner and then I had to go throw it up and I literally and it was not an easy thing. It was my sister's birthday the day after my mom died, and in laws decided to get a food truck, and we have I mean otherwise, I mean there's food at the house everywhere, but we just were not eating. But then it was like my sister's birthday, so I felt like I had to eat from the food truck and

I had to eat the cake. So I ate it and then something about me literally and there were so many people at my sister's house. I went over to a neighbor's guesthouse and I threw up in their bathroom. Like it wasn't easy for me to like make this happen. That somehow I was desperate to get that food out of my body and I hadn't even over eaten and that started it again, just like that. It was back and I probably it was a daily thing. Then it

was like every other day. Then it was like and now sound now that you know you brought up that it's eating disorders can be addictions. It sounds like an alcoholic returning to alcohol. Yes, where all of a sudden you need that whatever and you go and find it and then okay, I'll just do it this one time, and then you slowly kind of trickle back into the same thing. Okay, but I don't even know that. I was like, I felt like it was an out of

body experience what I was doing. I don't think I had the rational fashion now to be like, Okay, it's just gonna be this one time. I was just like, I did it, and then I was like, what was that? And I was so freaked out by it that just like I went to my mom in high school, I went to my husband almost immediately, and I'm like, here's the deal. You've been married to me, and if I haven't thrown up our entire marriage, so you don't know

this side of me. But now I'm terrified and it's here, and I feel like an alcoholic that has just lost their chip. That's exactly what I said to him, and he was like, Okay, well we can do this, like whatever you need. And I would say there's a lot of times where after I mean, he would come home and he'd be like, how is your day? And I would be like, even a year after my mom died or two years, there would still be discussions how is

your day? That's say, my day was fine except where I threw up, you know, and I would be able. I'm thankful for a relationship where I could be honest with him about that. But I still was so perplexed why it was happening. And now I've been over a year without anything binges or purges, so I feel that. But I have to share with you a revelation I had with Lisa. But I don't even know if it makes sense. And since you're a therapist, I'm gonna take advantage.

I need to pay you for the hour I told Lisa, I said it, just did it. I went to therapy. Obviously. I did M d R after my mom died because it's very traumatic for me. She did not die. It was not easy. She had cancer. I saw a lot that I shouldn't see and laid with her in her final breath. Me and my sister both and then it

is healthy or not. We probably laid with her for about an hour after that, the corner of people were like, we're here and to load her up, and we're like, we're not done yet, So you know, whatever that looks like for you, that's what we needed. But we definitely my SI and I both saw a lot and it was traumatic. And then you know, here I am the next day throwing up the food and I'm not knowing why, and I'm telling this to my therapist and she's like, well,

that's trauma. And the last trauma you had in your life was when your dad left, and that was when you're younger, eating disorder kind of started. I'm like, well, not exactly, but I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that like that would just make me do it.

But then I had this thought because I think something Lisa talked about or somebody talked about that like I really felt because I was grieving, and this also could be related to attention, since you said then and this is just me having to get completely honest and almost like embarrassed that, like what because it's not like it was a very conscious thought out decision like oh, I

need attention, so this is what I'm gonna do. This is almost like five years later and just having to look back and be like, oh, yuck, was that really what this was? Because what makes sense to me now is that I felt like I was grieving, and if you're grieving, you're supposed to lose weight. If you're grieving, you're not supposed to have food because you're sad, and sad people don't eat, and sad people get skinny. And if I get skinny, I get attention, which is exactly

what happened. I mean, there was not a single person in my life that did not comment on my body, Like about a month after my mom died, because I did get very thin, and I would weigh myself every single day. I would drink juice in the morning, urge whatever. I would do yoga twice a day. Also, I was trying to keep busy to not think about my mom. I would do wine and zan X for bed, so would knock me out and I wouldn't think about food and I but nobody knew this was happening to me.

But I would still come to work the next day and someone from would be visiting from you know, another city that hadn't seen me in awhile and be like, oh my gosh, Amy, it looks so good. And then I'd be like thank you. And then but I'd be like, yes, I'm grieving. I'm doing a good job grieving. I'm doing a good job grieving because I lost my mom and I needed to recognize that I'm sad. My skinny represents

my sadness and that gives me attention. Yeah, it sounds very twisted and messed up to say out loud, I underveel that makes more sense to me than when the therapist told me she thought like a trauma capsule open to my head. And because that's how I dealt with my dad leaving, that's immediately the route my my brain was going to go to deal with losing my mom. And I just don't know that that makes sense to me. Thank you for share that. I think your therapist could

be right there. Part of it could be this is the thing with therapy, and like me, there's no just like one way. So that's why I mean, eating disorders and addiction in general is hard because I can't just say it's every time because of this, A lot of times it's because of this, there could have been the trauma part, but I think what you're talking about it's probably attached to your trauma of not getting the attention

to the love and the belonging from your dad. And then now this is like your mom, Like you're a secure base, right, your person, and then she's gone, and then like who's my person? And who's gonna recognize or who's gonna know what I need or who's gonna All of that comes up of like you lost your secure base? So what do I do? You're sad? Right? Part of it is I hear you saying like I want people

to my sadness. I think part of it also is like I don't want to feel sad either, and so what can I do to shove down all these feelings? Because it feels good when I'm doing this. It's twisted as it is, like it feels good to perch, it feels good to go on a run for two hours, it feels for a period of time it feels it

doesn't Yeah, yeah, until it doesn't. And at the beginning, yes, it was like this high and this ride, and until it got messy and it was just exhausting and it was like I can't keep up, or if I would try to throw up and it didn't work and I was like, oh my gosh, I just ate all that food, like and it's not coming up like it was. Just tell me about like the embarrassment of like, this is so messed up. I feel embarrassed that this is what

I did. I think because I could be wrong in this, but if we're for the sake of our conversation of viewing eating disorder as an addiction and alcoholism addiction, I feel like, for lack of a better word, being addicted to okaine or alcohol is a little more sexy. I don't know it's the right word. First sake of this, I'm just gonna say, binging a bunch of food and then throwing it up for whatever the reason is is disgusting to me. I'm never I don't look at and

it could just be me thinking that about myself. I'm not saying that about anybody else and saying it literally about myself. I'm sure there's shame associated with anything that you're addicted to, but I feel like, gosh, if I was addicted to cocaine, nobody would be like, oh, you're disgusting. They'd be like, oh, wow, she that's crazy. She needs to get some help. But I'm like, if they knew what I was addicted to and that I was doing this, they'd be like, she's so disgusting. So that's my own

thought processes. It's not as you putting it out here right now on this is breaking down that factor of shame. And I think like even on Instagram, like anxiety became so popular to talk about, but like depression was in the cloud of like this shift thing you can't talk about. And I recently talked about something that I never said either, which was laxative abuse, and flooded with messages, not comments on my private on my public Instagram page, private messages

of me too. So there is something super secretive still about the purging, whether it is up or down, that people are still not acknowledging. But you right here saying it is showing that there is no disgust to it, there is no shame, especially you as Amy back right, because I wouldn't want anybody else sharing too. I would say that same thing to them. We're breaking it down. We're broke it down for so many people. I'm becoming

more vocal about my story. I think that on the radio years ago it maybe come up that I had dealt with a needing disorder in high school and college. It was kind of like I could relate on that level. Never would talk about the issues with food or binging or obsession food obsession for all these years. That just doesn't come up organically. Then at the stuff with my mom, Oh my gosh, I kept I mean, I told my husband about it, but I was very private about it,

like very until now. Recently, I feel like I'm in a better place and I don't want people to feel alone, and I need to start sharing that part of my story. So a lot of things I haven't said out loud yet, like what I just shared, I haven't fully said out loud in the whole, in its entirety, and so and I don't even I'm still probably not all giving it all. I feel good, I mean, I feel like I've been like there's a couple of times where I'm like, okay,

smiling inside because it does feel good. There's a little bit of a high from it. But also I was at a low where I was taken back to it and I was very sad for myself and I was about to cry, but trying to keep it together for the sake of the being one of the hosts here. But in crying is okay. I have no issue crying on air, done that plenty of times, So I'm sad for that's that part of me. I want to tell you a story, Okay, one. I have to say this

because this is huge. This is a side note. But when people talk about this stuff, I mean what you were saying, it is huge because yeah, people will talk about in rexia and restricting and my exercise addiction. They won't talk about the other stuff, and it's not any better at all. And what you're talking about is shame. I feel ashamed for what I did, And what shame feeds off of is your silence and secrets. And so when we talk about it more, this shame kind of

gets you starve the shame, so the shame dies. And so that's a big deal because I'm sure there's one million, jillion trillion people that are going to hear that and be like, oh my gosh, I felt that way too. Is it okay for me to talk about this? I think I'm gonna try it. The other part is This is the story I was gonna tell fifteen minutes ago, but I'm glad I'm telling it now because there's this doctor. His name is Dr Gabor Mate, and he does a

lot of research and stuff around addiction. He was working with heroin addicts and he was trying to figure out who's working Nate Center where harm reduction. So it's like we're not gonna you're not gonna get sober, We're gonna teacher how to responsibly use. But he was going around and interviewing these men and women are like, why do you why do you use heroin? We know that's bad,

we know that can kill you. And he went to this one guy and he described him the way I remember him describing him as this like almost like he would look like a big bouncer at like a club with like bald head, big guy tattoos, like tough. And he said, can you tell me what heroin does for you? Like why do you use it? And he said, I don't really know how to describe it, but have you ever been sick and your mom puts you on her lap and she wraps you up in a blanket and

she starts feeding you chicken noodle soup. He was like, that's what heroin feels like. So this guy concluded, oh, love, Like that's what heroin feels like. Love. It feels like a warm pug. And so I tell that story because like there is so much shame in like why do I do these things that are so bad? And I'm like, what's wrong with me? Is what I hear all the time, like Kavin, what is wrong with me? And I'm like, nothing's wrong with you. There's actually something right with you,

Like Amy, there is something right with you. The fact that you're like there's something wrong with me. I want to feel better. I need to go do this thing that I know that used to help me feel better. That means that there's something right with you that you are trying to find. Like we all need attention, we all need love, we all need belonging. We are born attached to our mothers like we need attachment. We're born

that way. And so I just say that because I think a lot of people think to themselves like what is wrong with me? Like why can't I stop? It's like, because you're a healthy human that wants to get better, and thank God that you did that rather than like just being like take me away life, like when you turn to your husband too, which is like telling I think I'm not that's your secure attachment now can you

take you with? And it can't be any it can be anybody that's your secure attachments like help me, Well, thank you for letting me talk through that. That's actually we just made a lot of Claire that we needed. Yeah, I didn't know where where we would go with that for sure, but I think that this is how do you feel at LEAs? Do you have anything you want to add from your think that the audience will feel like I did, where we might not have your exact story,

or maybe you do. There's plenty of people who have purged for that exact reason. But I feel like I've made headway in my understanding of myself far beyond my even years and therapy, just by understanding the importance of secure attachment and personally not having that growing up either despite what it looked like. Um and how we go about seeking attention because we're scared not we don't feel safe, and there's a million ways to do that, but for a large majority of us, with the addition of the

emphasis on thin equals loved equals health equals applause. It's an easy one kind of right next to it. So what do you do with your clients? What is something we can can leaves like they're like an activity or like affirmations or something you encourage them to do that those that are listening, that might be some of the stuff we've talked about today's resonating with them, Like is there like some stuff they can like a piece of

homework or something. My gut says, if this is really resonating with somebody, I want them to reach out and go to therapy. That could be great advice. That might be because some people see that there's shame and therapy and we should make sure that we're here to say that there's not. There's nothing wrong with that at all whatsoever. And something that you say on your Instagram all the time that I am not a therapist, but I've been in therapy my whole life is there doesn't have to

be something wrong with you to go to therapy. So even if you don't identify with the purging or even an eating disorder and you're just listening to this, I mean I have found that my most profoundly huge steps forward in therapy have been on days where I didn't come discussing a trauma or anything relevant to my life. Think it's just a tool to better get to know your total being and that is profoundly huge in how

it will affect everything in your life. What about a piece of homework for people, Um, that you had said earlier, is you know which so second nature for us to comment on somebody's body. What are some things that people can maybe for the next week work on. I believe in like human connection. I think the more we talk to people and out loud, the more connected we feel.

Like being in an uber even and it's so easy to just be on your phone the whole time, but even interacting with an uber driver or taxi driver I live in the city. What are ways that people can complement people this week that are non appearance based, Like can we push them to talk to people and say things that they What are some some things we can say to start conversation with strangers or loved ones? You know what? I want to come back This actually comes

from your last week's episode. Um, what did Kelsey say about if you think and it's nice, say it? Oh, if it's kind so it's kind say So, just to clarify, since this is a completely this is a different series, but and it's airing in April, but I do have I had an interview back in March with Kelsey Allerini

on the Four Things podcasts. So you're referencing something that's you said it just so that we were just talking about empowering women and Kelsey was just saying, you know, one thing I've learned is if it's kind, say it, Like who cares if you know the person or if you don't know him. If it's kind, if you think it, If you think it and it's kind, say it. That's exactly what she says. So I would say that with a caveat if it's about the shape of their body.

So because again you never know if that is a point of contention for somebody. But one of the things that I've worked on because I actually am like a introverted extrovert, which it doesn't make a lot of sense. I think I am too. Okay, so okay, we all are, but like I sometimes don't I like go into a place and I like think all these things about I won't ever say anything because I just kind of keep

to myself and waite for somebody approach me. But I think something that we can work on is like when we see somebody, and if we're just happy to see somebody, say it's good to see you, like I've missed you means a lot to me, or rather than being like, oh my god, girl, you look so good, you look

so happy. I think that a lot of the time, when we do complement somebody's weight or body change, it's because we've become So that's this is an okay thing to say to somebody that you might not even know, and so you might actually be thinking, this person looks happy. But it's a weird thing to say, hey, girl, you look happy. So let me say, did you lose weight?

Like I think that we actually are seeing again, going back to the radiance in people, but it might feel strange to say you look radiant because it's not a normal exchange, like you look good, right, so I think diving into your psyche. Okay, maybe you think this person looks good. That's the first thing. Why do they look good? What are they giving their fitting the standards of what

society tells us looks good. Because if society didn't say that, like, what would we think Like I always say, we are the decider of our own opinions, so we get to actually decide that, like which a lot of people would be like, yeah, dub. But then I'm like, well, do you think that because the person next to you think that? Or do you think that because you really think that

about yourself or about other people? And I use the example of if I pulled out a peanut butter sandwich and started eating it and you're like you peanut butter, but I'm like, I don't like it anymore either. The same thing as like if somebody is like, I don't like your shirt, like, well, I you're allowed still like it. If somebody thinks that you look whatever, you can still think you look good if society says that you are not.

But we need to stop questioning ourselves based off of others opinions, whether it's as profound as your body or insignificant as your shirt. Peanut butter and peanut butter, Catherine, thank you for coming to tell if you think it, and it's kind to say it, which comes from both

doesn't come for me. I can't take said it. But I don't know if she said it she got it from somewhere or I always say make it easy to be kind to yourself, So going along with that, it's like make it easy to be kind to other people too, Like all you have to do is go up to somebody and say hi, how are you, and you can start a conversation that could make somebody's day, exchanging a smile every now and then. People may not remember what you say, but they remember how you make them feel.

And then good one. Okay, Catherine, let's throw out your Instagram so people can follow you. Can you say it real quick? It's at three Chords Therapy. So three is spelled like the word r E. Yeah, and then my website is three Chords Therapy dot com. To perfect All right, well, thank you so much for taking time to talk. Thank you. It's