You can't just have a great marketing feel and a great brand. You should have to have a good product that people want to come back and use and talk about. Well. I remember us driving down the coast one day and someone sent me a message saying that Jesse j had just done an interview talked about frank Body. Someone has given it to a birthday and I was blown away when I hear people say, like, I've said it to
tell me who wants suits. Well, if you have a one in ten track rate, you're going to get one of them to quote. So if you want ten people posting, you need to be settings to one hundred. I think we have to create opportunities for them to excel because they haven't had them before. We need to address things the gender pay that because it's a really big issue and a lot of people still keep pretending that it's not there.
Hello and welcome to Outspoken. Today, you're joined by journalists Amy and Sophie Torbert for a very special Under the Influence episode. We are excited to be joined by Jess Hatsetts, who is one of the co founders of global beauty brand frank Body. Jess and her business partners from Melbourne turned five thousand dollars into a twenty million dollar beauty brand that is now sold in over one hundred and
forty one countries. Jess generously shares her insights into business, how to turn a side hustle into a full time job, and her views on women in business and why we should stop using the term female entrepreneur. Thank you so much for joining us on Outspoken. We're so excited to have you as a guest because I suppose you're an inspiration to myself and Sophie as both being business owners.
But I suppose a lot of people would be surprised to know that yourself and Brie actually started as Red bull Wings girls.
A hight Daniel share well, Sirs, thank you very much for having me on the show. It's always lovely to talk to some smart and deturmined women. I thank you, and yeah we did. We started as Red Bulling's Girls. UNI studying and so the jobs are only open to
UNI students. And it was, to be honest, like the best job you could ever at for a the unique student because you had very much flexibility and freedom, Like our job was to get in the car and drive around this person who became the best friend all day give people free red Bull before red Bull had been condemned. And it was the best marketing and training ground too because they had a really interesting targeting and segmentation approach.
So you learned a lot about I had to talk to different people about the products and different situations, and I swear I went more there than I do in the marketing elements of my degree.
Wow, And is that where you and Brea became friends or did you guys know each other before?
That's how we met and we've bonded over I shared love of writing. We were both studying out studying arts commerce and Bree was studying journalism, both with elements of creative writing in there. We both just loved it and kind of loved each other too. That it was just a b man.
That's so nice and it's amazing to hear that. That's where you guys first sort of came up with your idea for your first business? Is it? I suppose the skills that you learned at red Bull, is that what kind of gave you the confidence to launch your first business.
I think the people that apply for their job at red Bull have a bit of kind of go get an attitude. You have to be willing to really put yourself out there, and I think they're looking for that in the people that they hire, So I think it's more that it's somewhat attracts people with that kind of
common element. But it wasn't for a little while that we really developed the idea behind our first business, Villa and Blake, and it started as it was because we really wanted to shared place for all of the things that we loved to write. And we both moved on from Red Bull as we've graduated from university and I went in house to the agency called three sixty Agency,
which was run by Pie Sofo and Grant Smiley. Was kind of a bit of an offshoot of Want of Music, and re went in house at Broadsheets and probably were both working there and writing all of these pieces to Willard Blake on the side. And it was after a while of writing what was blog I guess ten eleven years ago, and getting a lot of traction and people really connecting with the stuff that we were writing, because
I think it was there was no bs then. We were just trying to find a fresh approach on things. People really seemed to connect with it, and the name will Blake started to gain a bit of momentum when we started getting freelance writing requests coming in and that was where the idea of turning row on Like blog into our first copywriting agency came from.
That is so cool And you guys have worked with some amazing brands since. Did you ever think I suppose when you first came up with the concept of the blog it would grow into what it has become today.
No, like, no idea, And I think that was definitely part of what allowed us to succeed. We didn't really have a plan for what it was. It was very much driven by our passion to write and then seeing the opportunity and sieving it. And I think we had like cute pol naivity on our side as well. Like I was only twenty three years old, so I didn't have a concept of really all the things that could go wrong and all the realities of running a business.
It was very much focused on the fact that we loved doing that, and I think it was skilled at it. We really knew how to write creative and engaging copy based on all of the different backgrounds that we came from. We've definitely grown a lot though, as we've gotten older, and I look back at the things that I've wrote and the decisions I made a twenty three year old version of myself and can't work out what I was thinking.
It can't be so disturbing. Can't it read old work? You're like, oh my gosh.
What And you guys, you would know this, Like you look back on stuff you created when you're younger, and it's like, wow, so I knew everything and that absolutely knew nothing and it's cringed girthing and it's driven by trends at the time, And that's that kind of awareness only comes with age and experience.
I think, yeah, And I suppose the thing is as well. At the same time, sometimes when you're beginning of business, I feel like a lot of the time you get advice to just get started and go with what you've got. So it's yeah, it is. It's interesting because I feel like a lot of young girls ask us about starting a business, and sometimes you just have to go with what you've gotten, hope for the best, and put in your best effort with it, which I suppose is what
you guys did. And you've grown so much with that.
I completely agree. I think you need to at have a rough idea of why you're doing it. And even though we didn't know we were going to grow Willow into what it is and then eventually start Flank, we knew that we wanted to write really good copy. We knew there was a gap in the market, but we were by no means perfect, and we just had to
get out there and start trying. And I think the best thing you can do is learn from feedback, and a lot of people are very scared at feedback, which is they think to feedback is criticism, and people need to really understand how to differentiate between the two, and that even criticism can be really positive because you don't really learn and grow from people just telling you that you're good at stuff. You run and grow from people showing you your area of weakness and where you can improve.
So if you're going to even think about starting the business, you how to be really open minded about that sort of stuff.
That's such a good point. And talking about Frank Body, I personally love the story of how it started and the fact that it was actually your yours and Breeze side hustle. Can you test I supposed to fill our listeners into how the concept actually started.
Yeah, well, there's quite a few of us involved, and even were originally had another business partner who then moved on a couple of years ago, and faink Body really came out of the combination of a few ideas. So at Willow we were really, i kept quite experienced by that stage in the idea of creating brands, marketing them, launching new products, and we were doing this work for
everybody else and things are going really well. But what we noticed was that some client, even though they came to will and Blake for someone out of the box esoteric ideas, when they were put in front of them, they weren't always willing to execute them because those risky ideas are a little bit scary. You have to really take a chance. We knew that if we could have full creative control over a brand and the product and the direction that we took for marketing, we could achieve
something really great. And this is really on the cusp of Instagram launching, and it wasn't being utilized by brands at that stage, and they thought there's this community of people there who are willing and waiting to have content served to them and different you know, I guess experiment with creating content themselves, like this platform is right for a brand to use, But we had no product. At the same time, our business partners, being and Alex were
really interested in moving into the product space. It was everything that we were doing with service space. So we had this issue of scalability. It was the real we can't do more than a physical man hours that we haven't available to us. It's just definitely the ear comments with the group, and he was the one that really wanted to push us to do something that we would be primarily a dot com business. And then it would be who owns a series of cafes in Melbourne who
actually came up with the product idea. He was surrounded by coffees all day and seeing people come in and ask for the leftover grind from his machines for all different reasons, and this one idea stuck. And then we did a lot of research and it wasn't anything called a coffee scrub in the market. It was just DIY recipes at home. And what noticed was that if you use left over coffee grinds, it didn't actually have a huge amount of benefit because of caffeine was in a
couple of coffee. So we started making like this little batches based on whatever we had in the kitchen, making sure that it was really highly caffeinated and using fresh grinds and got in the shower and covered ourselves in this stuff that wouldn't difference. I'll never forget it, and no matter how often I talk about it, it still is like the strongest memory in my head because I
felt so ridiculous. But when we went to off it was incredible, and you would remember, you know, body washes that you could buy at the season market even now they're even more so teen years ago that we're just gel with like a couple of beds growing in like there's nothing we don't scrub. This is Stokes with a couple of boobs thrown in. And I was like, I'm trying to remove sate pan or if I've got really draged skin, this isn't going to cut it. This is
a hardcore scrub. And I had a little incredible benefits for things like stretch marks x amount to rise the imm and body acne. And when you saw this great product that was one hundred percent natural, we could make really affordably to awful women a product that given cross them and arm and a leg and actually worked for and then market it through social So it all kind of came together, and that's how Frank Bodying and the original Coffee Good performed.
I love the fact that you said that you were a bit mortified when you first put the product on yourself, because I suppose when you're now it's marketed so beautifully. Obviously people want to take photos of themselves with the Frank body scrub, and it's I just find that so interesting that it's become such a huge part of your marketing to have people take photos. But initially you were sort of mortified by it.
Yeah, and we had clients, you know, working in the health and beauty space, where we pitched the idea of trying to get up generated content. People looked at it up that we had two heads. But where it's now, marketing has been issued since the beginning of time. It just takes different shapes and forms as different meetings and technologies and cultural nuances changed, and people seemed to forget that.
And it was the age of moving out of celebrity endorsements into having real people take over and utilize those channels and sots. It just seemed normal if you could make it cool and show people that they were part of a trendsetting movement and that they were early adopters, because I think that's always something that we like. We always like being ahead of a trend and showing people what's cool and what's new. So it's just giving them the tools to be able to do that. But yeah,
it was. It was us to the start, like they were my legs and breed legs and not Alex and Steve. Yeah, it was quite normalized the behavior.
And who were some of the first big names that you did start working with.
Oh, that's a really good question. We didn't like formally engage any influencers for actually quite a few years. Everything that the start was all organic seeding and so me free and airy built lists. I'm not kidding, like thousands of people wrong and just emailing and emailing, emailing and getting their addresses and sending the products and sending spiels about it and why we would love them to try it and if they liked it, to share it. And it was so many hours of work less days and
weeks of just doing that stuff. So that was our approach, and it naturally and organically as much as you can call it organically, from several hundred hours of work through from there, we just knew that was what we needed to do. And when I hear people say, like I spend it to ten man who months to school, if you have a one in ten strike rate, you're going to get one of them to post. So if you want ten people posting, you need to be sending it to one hundred and really trying to drive that volume
mentality to everything that people were doing. And then I think some of the first big organic mentions that we got from people jesse J that would be credible. I remember us driving down the coast one day and someone sent me a message saying that jesse J had just done an interview talked about Frank Body, someone who has given it jest day, and I was blown away. And
then the same thing happened with Ariana Grande. She did a YouTube and did all these press articles talking about the original coffee scrub, and we had never given it to these people, but it just sort of somehow found its way for them.
So it's an amazing product.
It is, I think it's testiment to the product, and I think people forget about that. You can't just have a great marketing feel and a great brand. It should have to have a good product so people want to come back and use and talk about.
So when Ariana Grande, for example, did mention Frank Body on YouTube, what kind of impact did that have because you hear of I mean, it's often hard to measure the impact of influencers, but I'm guessing you might have had a few people purchased the product after that.
It's hard to track it directly because we were doing so much influencer work at the time. I think the impact that I can contribute to that is that it made other influences really willing to talk about the product because it was now not just some unknown Australian brand. It was still unknown Australian brand that had been endorsed by Ariana Grande. So they were then associated with Perch and it kind of dated that credibility to.
Coolness and Arianna turned from big fan to I hear competitor.
Well, yeah, she's a smart woman, so she was working at I don't think it exists anymore, but I do remember seeing that and yeah, it's hurt a little bit. We've had so many people's copy of the brand of Lost Track. There would have been dozens of copytats by now, and I am really family the way the competition is healthy because I think that it makes you stay under toe is it makes you innovate. But I think there's a difference between competition and copycats, and so that's right
I set to draw the line. But as far as I went, I don't think that her that brand Ari the coffee stubcs is anymore.
Oh well, we can see who won that round then. Obviously, for people who are launching a product now in twenty nineteen, do you think influencer marketing is still as I suppose successful and has as much power and reach as it did when you guys first launched Frank.
Body, I think it's very different now. It definitely still has a lot of impact and a lot of power. It's much more contrived and calculated now, but that's just the nature of the platform. And that's if we're talking specifically about Instagram the platform. When we launched with organic there was no advertising, there was no speed, but everything that you saw you took as one hundred percent for authentic, but now it's consumers. We know that a lot of
content is sponsored. We don't know it's things genuine, but it's still really helps to increase brand awareness. And then consumers now can go and do their own research after they see something that the influence is posted. Rather than that's sort of see and buy impact that we saw a few years ago, it's now c and research. I think that's there are different platforms to utilize in different ways, and that's how we look at things like Instagram specifically.
But then if you look at new platforms that are emerging like TikTok, which is still relatively unregulated, then it's a whole new ballgame. And the way that we work with influencers and what we expect to see from influences on a platform like that, it's really different. Yeah.
And do you think I mean you hear these crazy amounts that some influences are being paid. I think I heard some somewhere that someone like Michael Finch might be getting around sixty K for a mention in a YouTube video. Do you think that they're worth it? Are they worth sixty k?
I think it really depends on the influencerf they work really hard, over a really long period of time to build up those followings, and it's so easy for us to just dismiss it as like, oh, maybe let's take photos that they're face. Sometimes that's what they do, but they do it like gay in and gay out, and the obviously create content that hundreds of thousands or millions of people want to follow it. So I have to
kill kudos where kudos is due. Where I think the issue is with the influencers who don't want to be accountable for the ROI or don't want to learn how to play ball with brands and make it make sure that all that sixty thousand dollars there's actually measurable benefits, and like any other advertising platform, that is something that should be a part of it. So I would nevered by like if you buy advertising in a magazine, it comes with a rate card, and it comes with expected impressions,
expected lifting XLIZB. So you can always measure it. And I think why brands become hegotant to work with in Wanted because they see these locky feeds, but there's never any kind of way for them to, you know, somewhat accurately estimate whether it's going to be positive for the business, or if they're just going to set without middle of empire.
That's so interesting.
Yeah, I think it's it's got to be a bit of back and forth and then there's got to be accountability on both sides for it to be a business deal. But really is beneficial for everyone involved?
Yeah, because I mean it is crazy to think there are some huge influencers out there who might still be managing themselves and might not understand just how serious the business side of it is. Do you think that that's where some influencers are lacking they as you said, they don't have that business brain and are just managing things themselves.
I think that a lot of influences are incredibly entrepreneurial and they're smart, and they've seen a trend and jumped on it. It's going there's both ways. I mean, there are some managers that make things more difficult and the influencers themselves easier to deal with. So I think it's just a real person by person sort of situation, and I think it's easier to forget as much as you're then looking at it as as a transaction occurring. Right,
we're paying people for content. We have an expectation about what that content does, but they're also a human and on the other end, and making sure that you build relationships with people is really important. I'm so lucky that I have amazing team members here who do that and they understand the value of that, and they are building those connections with relationships with influencers day in and day out, just like we did in the world of TV or
traditional print advertising. It's that kind of fundamental component that makes it work, I think all for anyone, it's just knowing what you don't know and trying to see what your blind spots are and again and getting feedback. So for influencers to ask brands how plent learn about what they could have done better next time to then be able to perform, because if we just continuously don't result in anything for a brand that well, you'll eventually dry up.
And going back to the early days, I suppose everyone thinks that when you start a business it's all glamorous, but I've read that you guys are actually making some of the products in your own house. Can you kind of take us back to those early days and just the effort that you guys put in to get your product off the ground.
Yes, starting a business is the least glamorous thing I've ever done in my life. It is such hard work. When we started lard Break, we had negative money in the bank account, like no money is a shortfall. We took furniture off the side of the road to set up our office. That kind of vibe was really statty, and we worked I don't know, sixteen eighteen hour days every single day, just trying to get a name for ourselves.
We worked for free. It's not that I recommended, but I think where you can prove what you can do, do it. And then with bank it was exactly that we were not only still only three years old at will arm Blake, and then for Alex and Steve having other businesses and full time jobs. And then we were coming home at the end of the day and up to our elbows in scrub mixture, making the scrub, packing the scrub, putting labels on it, taking it down to
Australia Post. And I saw so many things we learned, and like how to set up a label making formula in Excel if you're doing to type everything out that Australia Posts actually come and pick up large deliveries who don't have to do all trolleys but down Chapel Street to get it done. So let's just you know, you make sure the dumb mistakes and be starting out. And I think I always tell people Google is my best friend.
And if you could look back in my search history of the stupid things that I've googled, but they saved me so much time. So I'm a big fan of asking dumb questions.
Oh, Google's amazing. I mean, that's the thing you've got. As you said, you you know, in the early stages, you didn't even have a you didn't have a product, but you just had this amazing marketing brain and you knew that that formula would work. How do you go I mean, as you said, you use Google, but how do you actually go to creating a product and getting you know, there's lots of legalities I'm assuming around producing a skincare product. Did you have to go seek out
legal advice? Or did was Google just the answer?
We always start with Google. I think there's a lot that you can learn. There's a lot of great resources out there. Google is amazing to everything except medical day.
Yeah, you're always dying aren't you.
It's never always like you've got a cold and that tells you you've got lebroty you look at that. But we start there kind of do our face research, and then that was even how we found out production house. So when we went we got too busy to be able to make it by hand ourselves and we couldn't do anything else that the new business required us to do, so we had to find a manufacturer. That was incredibly
difficult because there's a consistency of the product. We had to have specially made equipment because because it's almost like a wet dry combination, and manufacturing machinery for beauty is usually for only web or for only dry. So it was just weird little challenges like that setting based and that was the amazing things that Alex and Seas led.
We really focused on the marketing, and they really focused on all of the crossing of the teas and dotting of the eyes while we could grow it and they could fix all those problements behind the scenes, and they never get enough love and attention to that. So it was the glamorous marketers side of the business that people want to know about. But then for us to do that we had to have the house in order, and
that's what the guys were doing. So yeah, piece of legal stuff when we made so many mistakes not securing proper trademarks, and that's why the business went from Frank to Frank body. So it's nothing to move scaling. Definitely, no mistakes along the way.
Well, that's so good to hear, because I'm sure a lot of people who are listening to this might be starting a business. And I think, yeah, sometimes when you see the end result, you don't realize all the hard work, and I suppose the mistakes that go along the way. Soph and I we run a pr business together and we're sisters, so I feel like we can be so brutally honest with each other, but obviously working with one of your best friends free, how do you guys go
about being really honest with each other? I suppose, especially in those early days when big decisions had to be made, I.
Think we and a lot better with it in time. At the start, we were always behind the eight ball because of the fact that we didn't really have a clear plan for the business and it was growing at such such an exponential rate. We would often skirt around
to difficult conversations. And as we grew as business owners and women and into leadership roles, we knew that we had have those kind of tough conversations, and then turns out that's actually really easy to have if you go into them with of these intent and an open mind. I think those conversations become really shit to have if there's someone in the room who doesn't want to receive feedback, or if there's someone in the room who's not open
to hearing different ways of doing things. But we're really lucky that as a founding group, everybody is quite open. Everyone can admit their mistakes, and I think that's the kind of psychological safety that you need to create. And we're lucky, like breathe almost like a sister to me, So even if we disagree with something, it's just sort of back to normal five minutes later, because that's what you do.
So you're in that stage where you can kind of be a little bit rude and then be like, oh, sorry, exactly, that's so good to hear. Well, And obviously you went from all the founding members frank Body and you expanded. I think I've read you've now got thirty stuff that's from an old article, so you might have even grown further.
But how did you go from I suppose going from packing the products, so then having to be people's boss, because I've read that you're you felt a little weird about being assertive at first.
M Yeah, well I was a writer. It could not be a more introverted job. If you you know, if you tried, you live in your computer. You don't even have to use your mouth. You just do everything with your hands. And as we grew the businesses, I had to become more and more confident with you know, taking in personal meetings and even just asking the people that I paid to do things. I'd go up and like, O'm sorry, do you have time? Did your help now?
Taking a decade, I've been running the world, wait nearly can you? And I finally reached the point where I think I understand my management style, but I'm sure it will evolved. I worked with a leadership coach, I did heaps of reading. I consume articles about this kind of stuff all the time, did a lot of work on self awareness, and I struggle with things like taking criticism, so I had to do a lot of work there. And then I really try to instill those values in
my team. But it's hard because we go from doing what you love, which for me was writing, to basically never writing anything except emails and meaning notes, and your job becomes being the coach, and so it's not about me writing something great anymore about me teaching my team and lifting them up to write something great. And that's got its beautiful parts. I've also that it's challenges when you sugget gurther away from that thing that you're really passionate about.
Do you think that as a woman in business it's hard to be taking seriously as a boss, because I know often if you're an assertive woman, you can often be called a bitch, But if you're a satan, you're a strong businessman. Do you think that it is hard to be a female boss in twenty nineteen.
I think it's as hard as we let it be. I've definitely had experiences external to our business where I'm treated really differently in the room to my male counterparts, and at first I was really offended by it, and then I realized that it wasn't about me and it was about them, and that that person was too unwilling to kind of check their own egos and that that
would be a way of the serving authority. And I've learned to not to bother me and I've learned to sort of stand up for myself a bit more in those situations within our team, though I don't. I think if you're called a bitch generally it works, not because you're actually a bitch. And what I could they are really different things. Like I've worked with all different types of people and I have so many strong, smart, talented
women around me. So lucky to have that. And I said this before, but we create very much psychological safety for each other that anything that's direct or assert is always taken as popular as intent. So there's never an elementar like, oh god, she's a frigging nightmare to work with because she's doing x ight there. It's just we just get shit done. And that's the culture that we've
created within our business. That culture isn't about the fact that we like to boos up together on a Faturday afternoon. So we'd love to come here every single day and do really good work together. So I think it's all it's a very kind of interconnected ecosystem. But I reckon just like don't be a jog head at work, and people will generally.
I think that's some very good advice to everyone out there, because there are a lot of dickheads in the workplace.
I'll put it on a bunch of bigger I'd buy that.
I've read somewhere that I think it was either yourself or Brie said that you didn't really like the term female entrepreneur, and I know SOF and I we hate the term girl boss because why do we need to preface our gender exactly? Is that? Why is that? I'm assuming that's why you also hate the term female entrepreneurs.
I think championing women is really really important because like gender equality is a regal thing. We all know that. But I've written so many rands about grum stories it becomes rancy.
But we love the r.
I'm malely passionate about us not being championed only depose were women. I think we have to create opportunities for women to excel because they haven't had them before. We need to address the bid a gender payout because it's a really big issue and a lot of people still
keep pretending that it's not there. But when I am constantly referred to as female X. It's like I have a handicap, and it's there's the asterix next to it, but there's I'm only here because I'm female, or I can't be as good because I'm female, or if I
make mistakes because I'm a female. No, I'm just human, and I'm because that being my pre personally, when I sit in the room with my male counterparts who do exactly the same job as me, and then never referred to as male or entrepreneurs, they're just entrepreneurs, and I don't understand why.
Maybe we need to stay with that phrase. Well, I'm so glad that I'm so glad that you're speaking out about it, because I am so over women on Instagram, in particular using the term boss babe and girl babe as a sense of like empowerment, and I'm like, it's actually doing the complete opposite thing. So thank you for being vocal about it, because I feel like more women should be. I mean, that's not mean. I think some women who do it think that they're empowering and they
might not understand. I think they don't understand perhaps the connotation or and that's why it's good to talk about I suppose as well.
I think that people mostly do it with the right intention, but we need to progress beyond that. Now. We've been doing this thing what we're calling us female entrepreneurs or girl bosses for so long, and I just never refer to myself as a girl in any acithetic. I'm thirty three years old. I haven't been a girl for nearly twenty years, So why am I now a girl boss? Like, come on, let's come up with certainly better than that.
And I think it's hard for us to be taken seriously as just people in business when then ninety percent of these networking events that are specifically designed for women become these like pink floral tea parties, And well, that's not how I do work. I am in a boardroom for fifteen hours and that's my business. And even in my personal life separate from my work, I'm not having pink blorrel tea parties, So why should I do that
now combined with my work? We need to just not everything needs to be pink and retty girl and like cutely, because that's not helping us to be hated seriously.
Oh my gosh, I love that. That is so actually I like that.
If you love pink, totally have but just not every woman has.
Oh I love that. I actually hate the color pink, but so I'm all about that. I was going to say, do you even tho, Well, you know that's your brand, that's not you know what, you you might not like to wear pink dresses in.
The real world, I mean black today.
Do you think that's Do you think that's why a lot of women are actually starting businesses? Because I know sof and I began our business for many reasons, but one was because we couldn't stand working with dickheads or dinosaurs in the industry. Maybe I'll put it, maybe I'll make a bumper sticker for that for our Yeah, but also because you determine what the results are going to
be in your business. But do you think that women are creating businesses more and more because of the that we're not getting paid equally.
I think there's a multitude of reasons. I think primarily it's the fact that we now have a lot more role models and we're shown a lot more that as a woman, you can do that. And that's when I think we're missing the conversation and it becomes about the fact that I'm a female entrepreneur, but it's more about when I was growing up, there was no one that looks like me doing this, And now that's the conversation shifting to things like race, because there are other minorities
so under representity in that space. But I remember a month ago, my team watched a very old Apple AT which was the very first Think Different campaigns, and it was showing all these creative and innovating people as a way that they launched the first IMAT And there was one woman in this ninety second long clip and we all sat there this week and when she popped up on the screen, we were like, oh my god, there's she's there. She is Finally, all the women in the
room cheers. So I think that's a lot of what's changed. Twenty thirty years ago. You were never shown, or very rarely shown women in any kind of position of authority across any field, from sports to the corporate world. So you didn't aspire to where you didn't know that you could do it. And now, thanks to modern technology and time finally changing, it's actually an idea that you have
in your head that I can actually do that. That's an option for me, I don't just have to be a nurse or a teacher, which is what I was taught at school, which you're amazing profession. Both my parents teacher. But if you want to do something else, now you're actually shown that you can.
I think that's sorry, as I say, that's amazing. Both our parents are teachers as well. I feel it's got a lot of common work.
I think, I think children and teachers that are very special breed. Did your parents recorrect your homework for me? Like mind did? Oh?
Yes, even when we even when we're doing our master's degree. Our poor mum, she went through line by line with a ruler. They're good moms, aren't they?
For I was very lucky I started my career as an EFL teacher. It's an incredibly tough profession. So couldn't Janney one that does it.
I feel like there's so many amazing business people that did start their careers as teachers. Actually, I feel like if you can deal with children, you can deal with anything and deal with business.
I agree.
Just lastly, we're just going to ask you. I mean, we're I know we don't want to reference female entrepreneurs, but if there are any young girls out there that are listening, do you have any specific advice for them if they're launching a business, And for boys as well, but we mostly have girls listening.
For anyone's launching a business. I think the best thing that you can do is understand what you're not good at and bring people in around you that fill those gaps. Look for people that think differently. You don't need five clones with you, And especially as you grow your business and maybe hire your very first person, you don't need that person to be your friend.
You have friends.
You need that person to be a really amazing asset to your business. And whether that's tomorrow or in two years, if you're looking to hire someone, just really remember that and do There's so many great articles and podcasts out there that you can listen to about how to hire people effectively. And I didn't do that until quite a few years into my business, and I think I may hikes because of that, and then be prepared to work your out offs and sex clear goals. Because there's no
such thing as an opennight success. Everything is the cumulative effective all of the efforts that you put in over a long period of time, and you just need to break out your goals into little, bye sized pieces. It's like something you can do this week, something you can do next month, that all eventually leads to your goal.
That's amazing of us. I'm just inspired listening to that. I'm taking notes at the moment. Thank you so much for joining us today. We've had so much fun chatting with you and obviously hearing your amazing insights into the world of business. So we really do appreciate your time.
Well, thanks very much for having me and thanks for listening to me. Ran, and just remember everybody that it doesn't matter what genders you are, if you even identify particular agenda, just do awesome work and good things for come.
I love that, I love Thank you so much. It was so nice to chat with you. We really appreciate it. Bye.