Episode 50: Eboni K. Williams: From Fox News to the Real Housewives

coming on vix Us. I love you so much. I'm so so honored to have you on my last episode and really importantly here this is your first conservative podcast since you left Fox years ago. It is it is yeah, bro, this is this is my honor. You know, I remember when we were having uh, you know, preliminary conversations around you and podcasting and what's the show and what's the

title and what's the cover art? So, uh, you know, to be here today after such a successful see and um, it's a manifestation of God's will And I'm honored and congratulations truly absolutely, and thank you for mentioning that as I was gonna mention you were very involved in the process of was shooting you ideas thoughts, what do you think of this picture? What do you think of this graphic? And he was like, I like this, I don't like that.

So You've been a part of the process for many years and my career especially so not just with the podcast for those who are listening, but also with television as well. And if I can tell this brief story of how we met many many years ago, I saw a clip of Ebony on Twitter and my first thought was, Wow, this is a beautiful woman. Let me hear what she has to say. And when I listened, I'm like, wow, she's brilliant. Let me look for more of her YouTube's

and so on. And I listened, and I listened, and I listened, and I followed you on Twitter, and then all of a sudden, your name was coming up everywhere. A woman who I've never heard of before that moment. I'm hearing about you in South Carolina, at the rooftop of the Bar and Chicago on the ninety eight floor

downtown Chicago, somebody's mentioned you. I'm hearing about you at dinner during the New Year's Eve with Armstrong, Williams and others, and I said, you know what, next time I co host Armstrong series X and radio show I have to have this woman on, which I did. And then after we did our thing, which was more of a debate than anything else about the executive order pushed through by

President Obama. And I know you were a big supporter of his at that time, maybe still now, but anyway, after we had that debate, you said, listen, next time

you're ainoied New York, let me know. We'll get together and have a conversation, which we did, and you offered me help just on the onset, which I've not really necessarily had that experience unless I was super seeking it where people will offer it, but no one has been so freely in a position to help, who's offered to help, and has been so consistent so throughout my entire career.

And I started in politics when I was fourteen, started working for the federal government when I was sixteen, part time, so on and so forth, been a lobbyist, and of course was on television before I met you, CNN and other networks. But I had so desperately that's really tried to get into Fox News, and it's very tough you and one conversation said hey, I'll introduce you to the producers that Bina the next time you're in New York, and I said, I'll be back next week Friday, which

it was a Friday we were meeting. You said I won't be available. I said, well when are you available? Eednie Kay Williams. You said Tuesday. I said I'll be back here Tuesday, and I took the twenty dollar bus. But yeah, you helped me. And you've been just by my side looking at every one of my television appearances for two months straight, giving me advice, critique, um, love and support throughout. So I really honor you and I'm really thankful to have you on my very last fifty episode.

So thank you so much. No, thank you for all of all of that. G And I just want to give context to some of your listeners as to how that positioning came about. Right, So, a couple of things

that you left out of the storytelling. Number One, after you said you know my name is in the ethos and you're like, okay, this is, you know, probably an indicator that I should have some kind of content content engagement with this woman, you actually cold tweeted me UM to invite me to be a guest on Armstrong william Show. Of course I'd heard of Armstrong william Show, but I

never had any inclination to to be on. But I thought there was something very audacious about a young man who was guest hosting to have the audacity to ask a then legal and political contributor and analyst f Fox News that he had never met Um to join him in that debate on an issue, that we on that issue were on opposite sides of UM. And I really, I really liked it. I respected it. I thought that told me already something about you, so I I complied.

Then I liked very similar to me. And this will lead me to why I even fell been inclined to introduce you to anybody at Fox News. Um, was you presented fact based argument? You know you know me to know I'm not big when people into spaces of high stakes where you're talking about policy, You're talking about life or death decisions that are federal and state and local government make as it relates to the well being of everyday American citizens, and you bring a bunch of hyperbole,

a bunch of emotion, a bunch of hoopers. I'm not into it. Um, I don't rock like that. And you in that debate, g you presented facts, we didn't agree on the application of the facts. That's okay, I want to say that one more time because I think that's being very lost in this whole ethos right now. Um,

as it relates to politics and debate and conversation. We didn't agree on the application of the facts, but we agreed on the facts and from there we could have an intellectualized, practical, and productive conversation as it relates to how this stuff can help people. Boom cool. So afterwards you did follow up and you were like, yeah, let's let me know when you can can link. Fine. I

hear that thirty times a day, every day. Fine. Um, you followed up, and I'm telling these details you to to let people know that it's not just some magic fairy godmother or godfather that's going to come out the universe and and and put you in position to succeed. It doesn't work that way. What can happen you hear this often, Uh, successes is where opportunity meets preparation. What's important here is that you were prepared to be put

in position. So when we let's go to that very first meeting, UM, I said let me see some of your your real and first of all, you had a real to show me. Let's start there. No, I'm serious because a lot of people they reach out to you, they reach out to me, they reach out to our colleagues, and they want to be on prime time, Fox News, CNN,

what have you. And when you asked them for basic examples of their work, what would you do if you had an eight o'clock time five God came down himself right now and say, you've got the eight o'clock time slot all week? What does your content look like? You can't answer that, then what do you expect to people? So anyways, ask you for a real? You gave me a real. I watched several clips and I said immediately, just by watching that real Giano, a couple of things

stood out to me. Number one, you knew how to present on camera, okay, like just aesthetically and that's important in this business. One thing Roger Els taught me, uh, this is optics. This is television. Okay, this is a visual business. Um. Regardless of you know, things that they came out that were of course very problematic, the basic tentacles of television remain. This is a visual business and your ability to present well aesthetically optically, it's paramount. You

knew how to look good on television. Great, don't have to teach you that. Number two again, you make fact based, coherent arguments too deep to agree you disagree, that's not the point. You know how to sit in front of someone else of opposite position and make an argument. Great. The rest of the stuff can be tweaked. Cool. So it was enough for me to say this is a young man. Also, you talked about how desperately hard you'd

work to be on Fox News. It's not a secret. Um. None of the networks in my opinion, Um, when I say networks, I'm talking about, of course the cable news networks, Fox News, MSNBC, seen, and I don't think any of them have an adequate number of representation of diverse voices. And when I say diversity voices, I'm not just talking about skin color, although that's important. I'm also talking about ideological diversity. I'm talking about regional diversity. Where in this country, Um,

you come from, where your perspective is informed. You know, Gee, I'm a daughter from the South. That is not a perspective. You see a lot on these national news outlets. Not because people from the South are on there, we don't necessarily talk about it. I think it's of the utmost important. Um. So you were bringing a perspective, you know, born and bred southside Chicago, coming from you know, a background that I related to, extremely humble beginnings, entrepreneurship instilled upon you

by your grandfather. Like just stuff that just vibed with me. You know, we we talked a lot about our mothers and you know, just different things that made us have a unique perspective on on themes like hard work, opportunity, what success looks like, UM, resilience, uh, by way of the American dream. So all of that was really really dope to me. Many people ask you about your journey with God, which I think is the really the center

place of your life. A lot of your decisions come from that place, and I love for you to kind of share with us, you know, what has that really been like in your journey and television? Uh and law? You know, you know, it's a it's an important question because while people don't ask me about the role God and my faith plays in my day to day and in particularly my work, it is a thing that is you know, because you you know, consume a lot of

my continent interviews. I intentionally try to deliver those realities because I think it's important that people know. This is not me. Really simply put Giano, UM, the work that I do, the blessings that I've been able to receive, the impact um to the extent I have been able to make one, It's not my doing. I know that. UM. I've been very clear from a very early age that all is happening here is that I am a vessel. That's it. I am a vessel of God's will. I

believe in spiritual gifts. I think every single person born get some or some spiritual gifts. And I think what is so incredibly rewarding g and and we've had these conversations in depth for years, is when you are able to identify with some level of precision what are your spiritual gifts? Right, and then once you know what those spiritual gifts are, then to me and there's actually um. And I'm not a big Bible thumper, as you know, but my my belief in my faith is of the

utmost important. But I do believe their scripture that talks about you know, God gives you spiritual gifts. That's him doing his his part. Your part is to then figure out how to pour those spiritual gifts that he gives you back into the world. Everything that I do and a lot of people look at the moves I make

in the business, UM and they don't understand them. So, whether it's going to Fox News in the first place, whether it's making a decision after several years UM of being successful on the network to then pivoting UH to leave the network to uncertain future, then it was taking a role at Revolt, which is a completely urban black centric outlet owned of course by Sean pdd Combs, UH hosting a real hip hop talk show UM with naturally

recognized internationally Grammy nominated actors rappers rather Joe Button and Remy Man and Brandon Jenks people that didn't make sense to people, No real house pis of New York like what you're doing it? But what you knew the whole

time because we were discussing it. I was letting God order my steps, right, This is God putting me in front of particular audience so that my particular spiritual gifts could be manifested, could be received from those who otherwise might not be privy to those elements, those energies, those particular things. So I just can't say enough again, I guess, simply put, it's just I'm not making these decisions, Giano, I'm not making these decisions. I'm not making these moves.

I'm not I'm not in front of the wheel. You know, one of the greatest spiritual challenges I've had my entire adult life has been the spiritual challenge and requirement really of surrender. Because it's like, if I'm trying to drive the bus and guys trying to drive the bus, we're not gonna get to where we're going, right, So I had to humble myself, humble my ego, humble my so

called intelligence to surrender. You know, you you mentioned something to me here, and it reminds me of something that Dr Bill wants and my pastor back home says a lot we've been to this church. He says, it's not me, is God in me. He's doing the work. So that really I think adjusted my thinking as you said that. But you also said a couple of other things that stuck out to me, one being you're used to being the person that drives. We'll just call it a private jet,

a fancy one. And when you look to make a decision, it's like being on a football field. You're already looking at the other end and we know how many well, I don't know how many yards it is. You do. You're the sports sports person, but you're looking way ahead. And how hard is it for you to really let

go and just let God guide you? I think that got to be a very difficult, very difficult decision for you, because you're always in the front seat of your life, your career, and all of your personal life, all of those things. You're really flying the plane. So how do you how do you adjust to that? It's been my age and life experience, I guess most of than the number of my age. It was hard for me three years ago, it was hard for me five years ago. It's not hard for me now because I just trust

him so implicit. How could I not, yes, ma'am, because you're not. And that's not easy to say to your question. So I don't want to oversimplify your question, because it's real. This used to be a serious spiritual struggle for me because I felt in my heart I wanted to be obedient and follow God's calling. But I'm like, God, what you're doing? You know, like that don't look like move Um.

But he's been so right, he's been so consistent, he's been so forward thinking, and things I never thought about, never thought about being a reality TV And all the years you've ever known me up and until this point, had you ever heard me talk about no reality never not pitching one, not starting one, not going to be on an existing one. That was not my plan. There are other things I've wanted to do in the business. Um, you know, write the book, do this, do that, maybe

host the game show, a judge show. Dad, you never heard me talk about no reality show. So when that opportunity so quote quote randomly popped up, I knew it couldn't be anything but God, and so it was easy to trust it. And then when in thirteen years they've never had a black woman, not one, And of all of the thousands, tens of thousands of incredible, beautiful, brilliant, super wealthy black women they could have picked, they picked me. Come on, that wasn't them picking me, That was God

picking mee am I to say no to God? So that is such a fresh take and perspective. I think a lot of people, especially those who have always viewed

their careers, simply put me in their hands. Not to say that you didn't work hard, that you weren't exceptional in so many different ways, not to say any of those things aren't the case, but there's a lot of exceptional people out there that don't know it, or there's a lot of exceptional people out here who here who think they can do everything just on their own without God.

And you're not one of those people. I know, you're one of the most brilliant people that I know, and I think you're one of the most brilliant people that a lot of people know. So you know, it's not a unique experience for me. But let's let's let's go to just the foundation of you, your mom right before getting into the big issues of the day of the show and all of that which we're gonna get into.

And I thank you for spending the time you were raised by a single mother who wasn't formally educated but was still a small business owner. Can you tell us what it was like growing up with Mama Gloria, who who I love in the door personally, but she's she's a tough person to grow up. She's very tough. She believes in discipline, she believes in hard work. Um, that discipline, some kind sometimes came at brute force. Um. You can debate the merits of that in a modern society, but

I can tell you it was. It was what was done at the time she you know, and one of the things she did, you know, it's old school stuff, but you know, she and my aunt's may they rest in peace. They literally taught me how to pray like that was a part of my upbringing, was getting on my knees at night and saying the Lord's prayer. And while as a kid, you don't really not necessarily know

the significance of that, or at least I didn't. Um, it was once you start living life, once you started going through some things, whether it's in school or at summer jobs or work like that, that's when my mom's tuteledgg really started showing up for me because she, you know, maybe it was partly because I was raised with a single mom. She was very clear on my heavenly father. You know, that's a term I don't know that we spend a lot of time on in a modern society.

But there's such thing as a heavenly father who will do two things. Always provide and protect. Oh I like that. I like that provide and protect yea. So it's one of those things. And then there's just certain things, like some things that come top of mind. If you take one step, God will take too. I believe that with my spirit Giano Caldwell. I see it evidence in every aspect of my life. I'll give you this. But I was desperately trying to get on any platform. Right, So

this is back eleven. I'm transitioning from the courtroom as a practicing lawyer to trying to be a national international broadcaster. Nobody would put me on a segment like it was a struggle to get on hoof Post Live back when that was a thing, And so Mom said, I would call or be frustrated like I'm so talented, I'm so good, I'm so smart. I got this lottery nobody's doing. She said, have you taken your step? Because until you take your step,

God can't move. I said, all right. So then my mandate g was every single day at least in outreach points. So whether that's eve, cold emailing producers, cold calling networks, sending out cover letters, resumes, clips, tapes that every day for I'm talking about nine ten months, and it would mostly go unanswered. But I felt like if I don't do my steps, he can't move. I believe that now, even now where God has blessed me to be you know me, every day, I'm hitting up so and so,

so and so. I would be great for this role. I would love this job. And I'm talking about some high level power playing executives, because who am I to sit back with arrogance and complacent energy and think that things are old to me? I just I just don't believe it. And you're right. All of that goes back to my mother, who I saw bust her ask pardon my French, to make sure that she and her child

had everything we needed and most everything we wanted. So, you know, when she came uh to to get me a twenty three years old, and we you know ran, you know, started setting up household with just me and her. This is a woman who worked three jobs at one time. This is a woman who put herself the beauty school while driving the bus for public schools at five o'clock in the morning, and while running packages for ups at night, you know. So that's the stock from which I come from.

So I don't know anything but hard work, and I only know God to reward hard work. Amen, and you, in some ways, while your mom was riding driving that bus at five am, you were kind of getting up and pulling your own sereal you were reading and you were what six years old of the time. Yeah, I was kind of being a hot mess too. I don't know if you remember toaster strudles. Yeah, five strudals pastries and then you get five packs of icing to go

with each strudal. Well, I remember him on TV. We weren't wealthy enough to have them, so I can only take your work. You're so silly. Well, I remember when we were wealthy enough to get the actual toaster strudles, um, not the off bringing, which we did that too, But you're supposed to get one pack of busting for each strudle. And I was such a little badass kid. This was

like the worst thing I would do. I would eat all five icing packs at one time and then be really sad the rest of the week when I would have a dry as pastry. But that was the kind of stuff you do when your mom leaves and five of the morning, just you making yourself breakfast, like you said, reading, trying to finish homework, and then getting on a school

bus as a latch key kid. Yeah. Absolutely, I got Ebony K. Williams with me Real Housewives of New York as well as a former host on Fox News Channel. I'm sure y'all enjoying the conversation. Stick with us. We'll be back right after a quick break. How was the impact of, you know, I know, single mom. How was the impact of being raised without a father, not knowing who your dad was doing. You know, you're a young woman.

You were doing pageants and of course I'm sure a lot of young men as you were growing up, we're trying to get your attention. Your really a beautiful woman. How was that experience of not necessarily having a dad to talk to about the decisions that you were gonna make, or having that figure in there to tell you outside of your mom, how beautiful you are, how talented you are, and all of those things that some people received from

their father figures as young women. Absolutely, and listen, my mom did did an incredible job to to make sure that she was providing and protecting as best she could. But you know, even today, you know it's hard for her to because she sulf deeply loves her daughter. She can't father. It's an impossibility for a woman, any woman,

to father. And I think that's recent through therapy and through prayer and through you know, my work at the Hoffman Institute, Gianno that I've just recently when I said recent time about the last two or three years, being able to sit with the pain and the reality that not having that male figure in my life to tell me those things. You are beautiful, you are high valued, you are special, You deserve the very best. Man this puts himself in front of you must come to this level, um,

Otherwise he's not deserving. When you don't have a man to tell you that and affirm that, you're operating on un an imagination really so literally. You know, when I showed up him, you know, my first marriage, I had no idea what I was doing because I had not seen it, you know. And that's not an excuse, that's

just the reality. UM. As I now prepare for my second and final marriage, God Willie, UM, I think a lot about that, g I think a lot about you know what my expectations of my not only husband, but I'm choosing the father of my child, you know, and what does that look like? What elements need to be there? And it is a journey, and it's something that I have to talk to you about. My other men in that are in my life. And I don't do a whole lot of male platonic friends because you know, it's

just not the vibes. A lot of people we operate with a agendas, um. But but but the ones, the handful of men that I love and trust deeply like that I have to defer to you. You know, what does that look like? What does that energy feel like? Because I didn't grow up with it, gen I didn't and so you know, I have to mourn the loss that I did not have that growing up. I am now, like I said, almost thirty eight years old. I'm not

gonna get it back. I have to mourn the loss of that and then move forward to say, now I do know, as you saw on the episode of Rony this week, I do know definitively who my father is. I cannot tell you how much how much just gratitude I have for that whatever the relationship become. But doesn't become put opinion that I know whose I am, I

know the paternal identity from which I come from. For those of you who have always grown up knowing that, just just take a moment to say thank you God, because that is an invaluable piece of your identity that, whether you know it or not, informs the level of validity in which you will walk through the world, the level of legitimacy and which you walk through the world.

And frankly, those were things I did struggle with deeply, um and probably to some degree still do if I'm being vulnerable, because not knowing that aspect of who I am and where I come from, it's a very hard thing for a young girl. And I can only imagine and I've seen the impact that it has had on many young women, especially growing up in the inner city, and it usually isn't isn't a great outcome and in a number of cases, and you're extraordinarily blessed to have

grown up without your father. Obviously a mom who was there and who worked our butt off to put you through pageants, school, et cetera, and pushed for you to be in these gifted classes because you knew that you were you were gifted to. That's another part of the journey. But as you mentioned last week, I believe it was the episode of Ronie Play where it is affirmed that there at least is an idea of one of three

men were to be your father. And of course you know, I don't want to give away anything because this season is still ongoing, but did it confirm who it is? Uh? Through d n A, I was able to reach out to the man that my geneticist predicted she was at That woman is phenomenal. Um, she's absolutely right. Gee, if you're cool with it, I would love to link her contact information in your episode notes, UM for anybody listening yeah to this and wants to help. Linda what's her name?

Linda is her name, and she is Linda Linda Doyle and she is fantastic. Um. She she's just blessed again. She's called I think that's the word we need to use and normalize. Some people are called to do certain things in this life. Some people are called to the pulpit, some people are called to art. Linda is called to connect family. So how has that that process been? You spoken with him? Have you met him? Are y'all in

contact or what does that look like? We have my father and I have spoken on the phone and listen, it's without giving too much away, it has not been an easy process. I can't imagine what it's like to get a phone call after literally almost forty years and say hello, I am your daughter. And by the way, i'm your daughter, and I have a pretty significant public profile, and I think all of that is a part of it.

So I believe Giano my father's processing. Um. I am prayerful that that processing continues to the point where we are able to start a really special friendship. You know again, I don't have an expectation that this man can go back in a time capsule and reraise me that that for me has come and that has gone, and I have to grieve the loss of that. I will never be that little girl running into Daddy's arms. It's not

gonna happen. So I have to grieve the loss of that and instead make a new story, a new expectation of beauty that says that this this man, who, by all accounts I hear, is a lovely man. He's been a lovely father to my sister, a lovely grandfather to my nieces and nephews. Um, and a lovely husband to his wife. UM. So this is a man of excellence and hope that I can have a relationship with him in that capacity. Now you mentioned something I think uh

is of interest here to people who are listening. If I and was in that situation, which obviously I've never been. I don't have any children, but if I found out my daughter was Ebney Kay Williams, and I learned more about her, I would I would want to, Hey, I want to meet you as soon as possible. I want to talk to you every day. I want to whatever part of your life you want to share with me. I would like to spend time getting to know and and and certainly being there for you because of all

this lost time, almost almost forty years. I'm not sure if that's necessarily has happened. UM, and you know you correct me if if if I'm wrong, because you said you've spoken with him on the phone, et cetera, how does that make you feel? Um? That that makes me sad? Of course I would love to talk to this man more equally, but again I don't know his process. I'll tell you what I don't do, is I don't take

it personally, right. I know enough to know I've had enough prayer and therapy to know this is not a rejection of me personally. He doesn't know me to reject me, right, So instead this is a reflection of his I don't know, potential limitations, maybe um an example of where where of his pacing and listen who. The thing I prayed for the most is to know who is he? What does he look like, what does he sound like? What is

his name? I have that, and if I don't get more than that, I can honestly tell you I'm still grateful and I'm very A question I've been getting to Gus, like, do I regret going on the journey seeing you know how it's it's not that scenario of we're talking every day, we're hanging out every day. No, I don't regret it for one second. It really was a painful thing to to on every application. I want people to really think

about this in their own gratitude. Every application I've ever filled out my entire life, from the s A T S to the bar exam to my first marriage license to every application for the department I've ever filled out, to all of it passport when it says mother Glory J Williams Boom got it father for thirty eight years almost it's been in a in a For the first time in my life, I can put a name there. I can't tell you how powerful that is for me.

And I think for those who may take those moments for granted, you realize the gravitas that it's really illustrated in this moment by saying, listen, I didn't filled out a number of applications. It says hey dad, mom, and I couldn't put in my my dad's name. I think that's I think that's something for a folks who may have a two parent home and grew up in and they're like, wow, I didn't even think about it to that magnitude. So I mean, we certainly appreciate you sharing that,

and I I want to pick up this conversation. Um after the break. We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Ebony about her time at Fox in a transition to reality TV. We'll be back in a second. Welcome Back to Alloy with Giano Caldwell. I got Ebony Kay Williams on the podcast and I couldn't be more excited to have someone who's more like a sister to me than just about anyone. The only thing that separates us is blood, and I've

not even checked our blood type shed. So maybe that's even we gotta check that we may we may be closer than I even think ebony. But I wanted to ask you. You've described your time in Fox News as challenging, and you said you went there to disrupt things, not to be comfortable. Could you elaborate on that? Sure? You know, when I go back to when I first started appearing on Fox, so this was it was I never forget my very first hit, as we call it in the

Business segment. It was on the O'Reilly Factor. It was live, it was with Bill and a reverend actually, and it was to to debate analyze the outcome of the George's Immerman trial. And I had actually never even seen The Orilly Factor before. But you know, I'm not under a rock. I know the gravitas of O'Reilly show and the impact on culture, so what you know, it was really legal analysis. I was able to offer as a skilled trial attorney and talk about the case and the and the cultural

impact which was really to me. Why I think O'Reilly was such a huge star at the network and his show was number one for twenty years, it was because people like law, people like policy, but people want to talk about how it impacts the culture American country. So anyways, Um, after that hit, you know, it was met with mixed review in terms of people agreed, people didn't agree. But what almost universally I got, Giana was people had never

really seen anything like me before. Are meaning my age demographic, meaning a black woman who was not a particularly partisan person. I've always been loud, proud, registered political independent for over eighteen years. Somebody who has a background in uh in law and unafraid to use it. Somebody who has worked in political spaces in Louisiana while I was coming up through law school. Somebody from the South, from the American South, who grew up with those roots and is proud of them.

So I just reflected and represented something very um unique at the network, And I knew if I was gonna sit in that space and not assimilate to everything else that the network was used to, that by way of existence would be disruptive. So that's what I mean when I say I went there to disrupt. That is not in any negative connotation, That is not in any um

malicious intent. It is simply to say by showing up as something so altogether different then what was currently on the network in an on air capacity, by nature, that is disruptive. You know, it's so interesting to me as you talk about Fox News. Everything what you're saying is true. You were a star at the network. Susan Scott, the CEO promoted you to co hosting the show, which going from a contributor to to to co host, especially that quickly, that quickly is the key word, shows how much that

they loved and appreciated your commentary. Even though it wasn't a super conservative sland. You weren't going in as a Republican. You weren't called Roll, you weren't Giano Caldwell any of those things. And I'm not some super conservative, uh car Roll of type figure, but I am a conservative, more

moderate in my in my point of view. But you have legitimate Republican credentials, yes, absolutely absolutely, But those are the things that you weren't And I think people appreciated that because I remember seeing the social media they will say, I don't agree with you, but I love the way you stayed at your point. I didn't agree with you on this or that, but I appreciate what you bring to the network. You made me think about this differently. I'm glad that my daughter can look at the TV

and see you on it. Like I've seen the emails,

I've seen the tweets. I've seen all of that over over the years, and it really bothers me, Ebony that I've seen in places like the Daily Mail, Uh, these hit pieces that they've done on you with regards to your time if Fox News and honestly have said, it's just a a deluge of lies, just negative headlines, lies that we're We've seen from the Daily Mail, Uh, people saying that, hey, you know, she was too much of a talent, you were you expected too much or mean

the staff and all this kind of trash. And I'm like, wait a second. Ebony and I worked the Fox the same time, and people knew that Ebony brought me in. And as a matter of fact, when I had my meetings with the executives to be brought in from a contractual basis, it made me look good that I was brought in by Ebony. Kay Williams, and they had nothing but great things to say about you. We're switching gears

in terms of the Fox up. It's just really interesting how people are reflecting on your time at Fox now and bringing up a lot of false narratives, things that are just completely and totally untrue. How does that make you feel? You know, this is not my wheelhouse, meaning I'm new to this reality TV space. I am used to being a journalist. I'm used to being a host of content. I'm used to being a lawyer. So in those spaces I've always dealt in fact um. What is

new to me is to be in tabloids. Okay, so now we've got to have a conversation about what is legitimate press um, you know, which I'm very accustomed to, have given hundreds of interviews throughout my career, maybe even thousands, um, in a variety of places. What I'm not used to is being the source of tabloid fodder and those like the Daily Mail and all that ship that is a tabloid. And at first I was really taken aback, like, oh my god. And then you look and see like to

your who would say such a bow faced lie? And then you talk to the journalists and they said, oh, it's it's a sort an named source. Okay, come on now, come on now, So you'd rather go with an unnamed source than the source I provided to you, um, which was actually reported by Variety on actual legitimate publication just recently this week where my then supervisor, Mr. David Clark, who was then vice president and executive producer of all

of weekend news at Fox News at the time. Uh, you know, gave a literal glowing report at every turn. You know, he volunteerily unsolicited sent me an email which was published in a Variety, essentially saying I'm paraphrasing, Uh, you were spectacular. Um, not only on air performance, everyone in the d C bureau enjoyed thoroughly working with you, to that point of how I am with the staff and crew. You know, I I knew everybody by name,

from receptionists to cameraman to the gentleman. Normally it was gentleman that that that miked us as we sit down to do our hits and and commentary or anchor a newscast. So just the height of of you know, slander, that's

all it was. G It was just slander. And again you know Megan McCain, who you know that we both worked with at Fox, and I worked with very closely, especially during my time guest hosting Are Outnumbered, which was you know, the talk show that she hosted, co hosted, and Megan on the view as of like a month ago, was like listen, I don't know what people are there talking about with ebany being disruptive in any space in

terms of not disruptive being a problem. I have a quote here and I have David Clark's as well, if I may just read it for the audience, just great platitudes here. I can I thank you enough. And this is David Clark emailing you. I can. And I remember this email because you sent it to me when you got it. I remember it. I have it in my box. I remember when you sent it to me, uh years ago. He says, I cannot thank you enough for making the trick to d C. These passed many weekends to co Anchor,

which is America's newsroom headquarters. From there, you did a superb job and the DC staff has repeatedly expressed it very positive feelings about your performance and their dealings with you. Let's catch up when you're back in New York. And then from Megan McCain on the View, of course, she stated this live on air. She said, I actually know Ebony. We used to work together Fox News. She's actually among

being the first black New York housewive. She was also the first black woman to host a show in prime time and news. The Ebony I know is an extremely intelligent, hard working I mean, she was like a very good sparring partner on my old show Out Number, and I always enjoyed being with her on air. I'm happy she's bringing diversity and shining a light towards a lot of the unconscious bias and just bias and racism and unconscious

racism in particular on reality television. This is a woman who could probably run for office if she wanted to. So I'm happy to see her on reality television. I hope she takes that platform and continues on because she really is a really really always been an interesting voice. Is nice to see a highly intellectual woman on reality television, not that there hasn't been any, but well, I just know it personally. So those are words from Megan McCain um that she gave on the View. So again, somebody

else that knows you. I know you, And of course I don't speak for everyone in Fox News. I only speak for myself and what I heard and what I've seen per my time there. Um, But no, I mean you, you gotta say it exactly that way. So I don't know what other people may say behind closed doors, but I know what was been publicly stated by executives, talent, and staff. So that that was just to me. When I read that and I saw some of the things that I was like, oh, yeah, this is a bunch

of bs. And I can't imagine anyone who actually worked at Fox saying these things, um, that they said about you. So that's that was just bizarre. And you're right, you're now you're a bona fide celebrity. Is not being on Fox News. On being on Fox News, you can be famous and sir in areas, but now you're you're, in my opinion, the most impactful housewives in the in the franchise, people are talking about real issues now. Granted, people do watch reality show to see people fall out of the

bushes and be drunk and throw glass. Boy, that's why I wouldn't I wouldn't be watching it because it's not my thing. But you've done and I don't agree with everything you say, Let's be clear about that, as you don't agree with everything that I say. But you've made an impact that I think most people would never expect to come out of a housewife franchise, and that I think probably is the It's one of the biggest honors that you can have. How does that that make you

you feel? And think about what you're doing as people say that, oh, if you go into the housewives show, it would take you down a peg and your brand wouldn't be the same. You would be known as the reality TV show a star and that's it. You would never be able to get back in news. And none of those things are true. No, thank God that those things are true. But again, I never had those worries. Um. Let's go back to when it was announced that I was going to be the first black housewife on Real

Housewives in New York, which was October. Like you said, we we had been in deep conversation, so it was no surprise to you. But we have mutual colleagues, UM in various news spaces that reached out to you with concern right on my behalf. You know, what's your girl doing? Um, she's messing up a great career. All these and I had those same things. The reason I was never concerned about it, worried or fearful. Again, Guide had ordered the step.

You know, there's that meme um ge that talks about how people are supposed to understand your calling because God didn't give it to you on a conference call, right, So that is deep to me. That is saying that you have people at this point in my career I feel just trust me. It don't have to make sense to you. It don't have to make sense to you. It doesn't have to look logical to you. It doesn't have to look like anything that makes sense to you.

Just trust that. At this point in the game, I know what I'm doing because I my ear is to the Kingdom, okay, and he is telling me, by direct order and spiritual calling exactly how to move and manifest. Again, let's go back to my time at Revolt on say the culture people said that then, oh my god, what are you doing? You're gonna be sitting up there with a bunch of rappers and you're better than that, and didn't what people need to know about me, because again,

this is all favorite play here. This is not me, this is of God. I'm never going to reduce myself to a position of a platform. What's going to happen is an elevation of the platform period. Every time, every time I could go on the Bad Girls Club, know that the Bad Girls Club is going to look different with me on there. That's just the vibes. So I really hope at this point people that have watched RONI that have never watched it before, which is a litany

of people. Have Some people turned it off absolutely because they are not with anything of substance. They only one to see something vapid and ridiculous that frankly make some mockery of women. So if that's why you watch the show, you are probably not enjoying it with me on it because it's too much substance, it's too much vulnerability, it's too much real life. I'm proud of that because that's the future of this franchise. See, people have to also

understand this gena. We are living in a cultural climate where things that were acceptable socially are just not acceptable anymore. Now we can debate the merits of why and how it is a moving too fast or but it is what it is. It's here. Okay, you can't go into the workplace anymore and slap a woman on the booty and say good job, and Okay, that's not going down anymore. Similarly, in in reality television, some of the antics, some of the antics are not sustainable. So the platform has to evolve.

And and the fact that God has chosen me, called me to do this work in this way in front of millions of viewers each and every week, that I'm able to connect to get people thinking about what it is to go and search for their biological parent, what it is to celebrate beauty of the bond between Black and Jewish communities, what it is to celebrate the beauty of black excellence, whether it be in Harlem or Alabama, or Atlanta or d cit. I'm extremely blessed to an

honor to serving that space. Well, thank you for making that statement, Emany, I appreciate it. Now we need to take another break. When we come back, I want to ask Ebany about some of the criticisms of her being on the show and what it might have done. Uh, we had to talk about it. Some of the criticism you're being on the show. We want to get into

that right after a quick break. So we got emany Kay Williams on with outlaw what Gianno called them excited to have her on, and we're talking Real host Wives. Now you're in a much different place. Reality show is one in which people Reality TV is one in which people usually see as a a place where uncouth people really reside. That's whether whether folks that are willing to do anything and everything to be famous. And clearly you're

you were a serious talent from the beginning. And just to put things in perspective, last year you all tape right after right during a period of COVID George Floyd, there was a lot of conversation going on about race and every week I can tell you from working at Fox News it was something literally, I mean every network you should say, uh was talking about it. Local television

was talking about it. So just putting things and that perspective gives you an understanding how some of the conversations went on the show. Now people have said that, uh, you your your two woke, your your pre chee. They said, you're asserting politics and the Real Housewives, and of course people want to just watch white women get drunk and throw things and talk about having sex and all these

other things. And they're saying that you've impacted the show in a negative way by talking about blackness, about talking about uh wokeness. And I don't, I don't necessarily want to you is that term? I know people who have been using him a lot lately. I asked Marca Romont Hill on the podcast. I said, will do what what is woke? He said he didn't know. And I can agree because woke used to be something entirely different when

people talked about being wokey. But usually these highly intellectual black people who would say, listen, don't treat black women like that, stay woke, or I know about our history, our true history, stay woke. It wasn't seen as the very divisive uh statement as it is now, because I mean, the term has changed drastically. If by woke what people mean is operating with a level of race consciousness. Um,

I proudly do so. Um and and and woke even didn't really applaud to me because to me, even the genesis of the term woke would would reference some an awakening, which means you are now conscious in a way that you have not been before as somebody who's from six years old on up was raised on the autobiography of Malcolm X and the narratives of Frederick Douglas and all the things, uh the Souls of Black Folks by two Boys and Baldwin and all the things I've never been

sleep that might be for someone else that that had an awakening of black consciousness. And it's never too late. Do you know somebody can get woke today? I guess. But I have never been out of touch with an extreme academic people have to forget, you know, I have a bachelor's degree in Black studies. I'm not new to this, you know. So um, yes, I think that the term people are looking for is somebody who is bringing an unapologetic and an intense level of black consciousness to the show.

And that has been met with scrutiny. Yes, so it's been mat with scrutiny. There they were saying, Uh, folks have said critics have said that you're ruining the show that by talking about it. Uh wokenus if you will, talking about black excellence of a lot of folks have said that, which is very interesting to me that they would even publish something like that, but to do each his own to say at especially in that light, like oh man, you're talking about black people too much. You're

having a black Shabbat dinner, Like what is this? What are you talking about Jewish people for? Why do we care? Like we want to see fights and all of that. That didn't make sense to me. It's certainly different from what we've seen. I'm sure what people have seen on the show before. So you know, I get that part, But what is your response when people say that you're you're ruining the show? Like, I just don't. I don't get that piece because you've made some interesting comments which

I thought were valid. You talked about how it's the producers that set up the show. They edit everything in a particular way, so a week after week there can be conversations that can either be shared in its full detail or it can be briefe um, you made mention mention of those things. You also talked about how one of the most popular franchises, the Real Housewives of Atlanta, their ratings are dropping in people are now you know, COVID isn't over, but people are now getting the freedom

to go out of the house. So who's necessarily sitting there watching television every night. We don't know because they've been locked in the house for eighteen months. So you know, what is there? So what is your response to that? I think people, you know, need to just really relax. Um, you know, and I think so and or say what you really mean, right, which is not that Oh no, she's ruining the show with all of this race talk

or black consciousness talk or black excellence talk. Say what you mean, which is we're totally happy when the show centers on white excellence. I'll give you an example. There was a season where my cast mate Sonia Morrigan took everybody to Philadelphia to see the Morgan Library, you know, of her her marital family. Uh, the JP Morgan Chase Bank family. Um, we're all too happy when Ramona pulls up at the Learning Annex to to listen to people

talk about how to have it all. Those are white centric events, Um, where no one's drunk, no one's falling into bushes. Their academic and educational and nature and nobody had a problem with those things. But I have one Harlem night dinner around black excellence and Harlem Renaissance, and it's a problem come on, Know what you are bored with is that you are understandably conditioned to a narrative

that centers around whiteness. And when a black woman, a first season housewife, has the audacity to move that central point to one of blackness, you are angry, you are upset, and you don't want to be part of it. And that's what's happening. And I can accept that, but I would prefer people be honest about it. G and also miss me with the um oh, I only watched this

show for fun times, shenanigans and antics. That's not true either, because some of the higher rated seasons of Ronie dealt with divorce, dealt with bankruptcy, dealt with alcoholism, sobriety, arrest, felony, arrest of assaults of police officers. Come on, now, you know, so no these shows and that's just Rony, that's just Real Housewives of New York. You go to Beverly Hughes, you're talking about Sue side talk. You know, these are some serious ass issues that are addressed on Real Housewives

for years. It's the audacity to make them centered around blackness on a show that is a not all black cast. Because Atlanta did the same thing. You know, we saw Porsche Williams protesting UM with you know, several collective action groups around Brianna Taylor and so forth. We saw Married to Medicine going to the march on Washington and because their physicians running COVID testing sites, which was beautiful to see.

You know. So certain audiences tolerate that very and celebrated even in a way that this Real Housewives of New York audience has not. Yeah, that's that's interesting. And I'm also interested in why Romona Singer has responded in a way that she has of with some of that come and she made her around the Black Shabbat dinner and some of these other scenes that I've seen. Has been really interesting to watch how she responds and isolates her self when the conversations occur. It's just kind of weird

to see that. But did that shock you to see how she responded to you when you you have these kind of conversations. I was still at that point getting to know Ramana Gianna, So I don't know if it's so much it shocked me. It's just, you know, I'm a very pragmatic person. Um So at that point I was still just obtaining really evidence of who she was

as a woman and as a person. So when you know she made the comments about false equivalences between white and black women in maternal mortality and just other you know, ridiculous comments that she made, um the dismissal of the Jewish oppression here in America, the dismissal certainly of of the black experience in America, which can be both oppressive and extremely liberating. And though it was I surprised to

know what I was was taking notes. You know, So now listen, people tell you, not just Ramona, all people, all people Gianna will tell you exactly who they are. You have to just be quiet long enough to listen. And then when they tell you who they are as the great my angels said, says, believe them the first time.

So that's all I have to say about that. It was so interested in knowing how you felt about that, because that one would look problematic to me just seeing a response, But that to me personally, I don't know how everybody else thought about it, but it was just odd at best. It was just it just look insane to me. But anyway, moving on, before we let you go, because We've been talking for a bit, and I know you've got things to do before we let you go. I wanted to get your take on some of these

headlines that are out there this week. Just get your thoughts on it, if you would. As I'm sure you saw, the Taliban took over Afghanistan right after President Biden with true are remaining troops from there. The scenes that we saw, oh my gosh, at the airport was shocking. Desperate Afghans were literally trying to hang onto a U. S Military plane as they flew away, and several thousand Americans remained trapped in Afghanistan. Are your thoughts on a debacco there? Listen?

You know what I'm not gonna do is Monday morning, Quarterback. I think the basics of what you said heartbreaking, devastating. UM, it's just it's it's it's a nightmare. UM. My heart and soul and prayers go out to the Afghan people, particularly the women and girls there whose lives will never be the same. We know that, UM, none of the people's will, but the women and girls, it's it's going

to be extra horrible. UM. As it relates to the politics, you know, I'll echo Kondo Leeza Rice, who knows more about geopolitics than most we've had four administrations. UM, really air to put it very modly, and uh contribute to devastation to probably put it more accurately as it relates to what we are currently seeing in Afghanistan. And that's not to take anything away from the responsibility of Biden.

But I'm not about to sit up here neck like Trump is not also responsible, Barack Obama is not also responsible, and George, of you Bush, it's not also responsible. Um. And and all we can do is really pray that God forgives us in our nation for our contribution to the depth station of those people. Yeah, and you're right there. There was a number of presidents who had a hand in this, going all the way back to George George W. Bush for sure. And obviously now Biden is the president.

And Biden is the one who said on the world stage when he was running for office that he would be the adult in the room. He would talk to our allies. And apparently it was reported that he's not had any conversations with our allies and he and I

get it. You're right, you know, you know that he has taken this, but he really is to blame for this withdrawal, which is unnecessary and not what I would expect from a US sitting president who has so much experience in this place, being in foreign policy for a decade after decade. So I definitely get your point there, and I just wish that the people can work together. We can have a Bipartistan conversation about this. We do

need to care of those interpreters who helped us. We need to get our military equipment out if we can, if we can, we need to really not surrender the stage to the to domestic not domestic, but a terrorist operation on as a Taliban. So I just found that to be just embarrassing and horrific that President Biden has allowed this to go on. It's really troubling for me, especially as being someone who was supposed to be such a serious leader on these issues. Yeah, I mean it's unconscionable.

Um book stops with Biden, no doubt. But the problem is every American president said they were gonna do so this was going to happen regardless, you know, we could whoever did this, whoever pulled out completely, this was going to be the result. I don't really, if I'm being real with you, Giano see much better of an outcome because so many of the on the ground Afghani people. Um, it just wasn't. I don't think the numbers were there

to prevent this kind of outcome. I really don't. Um. Could there have been more diplomatic conversation, sure, um, with that made a difference, I'm not sure. UM. What I do believe is this was flawed from the onset. You know, I think when you decided you're going to go occupy foreign terrain in this way, there has to be a much deeper, more coherent, long term strategy, and there never was one from the onset, and that's what we're seeing now. Then the question is who's children are we gonna send

over there to die? You know who's going? So it's a it's a terrible outcome all around. Yeah, no, no question about it. And you know, I personally disagree that it would be the same way no matter who the president was. But that's another conversation for another day. Ebany, I want to thank you so much for joining me on No no, no, no, no no no. I just want to question I'm curious around who and you know What're you about to put a name on it? Whose

leadership would have made it look different? Do you think? And what would that leadership intended? A president who was willing to take the advice from the military officials on the ground. The military was against many officials in the military way against doing the withdrawal this way, meaning withdraw all at once. Right first and foremost, you're the president of the free world. You should talk to our allies. Our allies, UM have people on the ground there as well.

You're the biggest, the most powerful country. So there should have been an ongoing conversation, right, Okay, So let's let's play out the hypothetical. So and so let's move let's move the names, because I think that that flusters the conversation. President A talks to the allies. The allies say, um, maintain some true presidents otherwise it's gonna be a ship show.

That's that. That's that's what happened, right. How My question, though, is what president is going to continue to come to the American people and the American military families and say your sons and daughters and non binar are identifying soldiers are still over here in a country where this country is not willing to stand up in the same way. How how long does that go on? That's only that's the only question. I Mean, one can argue, hey, we should have left a long time ago, and I think

that's a reasonable argument to have. However, one could argue we should have never gone, and that's true too. I mean, we can we can talk about that, and we can talk about how big of a failure was for George W. Bush to have been pushing the war to begin with, and how we were alied to That's true. But you then elect other people, and I get it. You take President be name out of it, and you just insert any president if you're gonna have somebody who said, I'm

I'm a foreign policy wonk. I'm the guy who knows how to get it done. I know all the world leaders, and I talked to them regularly. And then you get on the world stage and you refuse to draw listen to the military officials who are on the ground. Who understands that's what the previous president said, I would listen to the military officials on the ground before making the decision because he wanted to draw that on the troops too. But you can't is the solution of forever occupancy, because

that's what Obamas. It isn't. It isn't. But you should have ensured that you've got now keep people and you've worked with our allies to do it safely. The military should have been the last ones to go so the Taliban didn't overtake the region as quickly as they did. That's where it becomes problematic in my view and in my eyes, and especially when our president knew about all of this stuff Wednesday and Thursday, and then by that Friday he went on vacation, Like what who does that?

Another conversation, he went to Kim Code on COVID, This wasn't people and more people than Afghanistan? The hell are you talking about? G And let's be let's be clear. He's not the president, he's a U. S. Senator. And yes, he should have stayed put. He shouldn't have left. He shouldn't have left. But again, he shouldn't have left. But again, but again, that's not one excuse or another. Conservatives attack their crews, just like conservatives are attacking Joe Biden for

going on vacation. But again, and this is the problem with our whole ship. Right, why can't conservatives attack tag Cruise? And why can't Democrats attack Joe Biden? See see the hypocrisy? Yeah, but Democrats aren't attacking Joe Biden and making every excuse in the book. And conservatives were not attacking tech crew. They actually were a number of conservatives attack And let's be clear. I was one of the ones saying, what were you thinking going on vacation in the middle of COVID.

It's a horrible look. We can talk about the outlier partisans that have the balls and the political integrity to attack, not even attacked, to hold their all party leadership accountable, y'all outliers when it does happen, When are we as a nation giannao going to put people, policy and integrity over partisanship. And that's why I can't rock with these political parties. I'm just telling you, maybe when you run for office, we can do that. Are you running for office?

And any point I probably what that could look like, I can't imagine because I'm not a partisan hack and I just the politics is a money game. So how does one get enough money to run successfully without playing

the political partisan game? And that's that's that's when we figured that out as a nation, we might get on track to avoid this type of global catastrophe as we are seeing now in Afghanistan, and we might get on tracks to avoid the domestic implications of a pandemic that could have been handled in a much better way a

lot sooner. In with that, Emony kay Williams ends with the soliloquy for your money, brock and providing us with the platform that if you decide to run for office one day, I'm sure this would be a part of the conversation, and I think that if you did, we we would be well served. So thank you so much for joining me and all the love and respect for you and what you're doing. Even though I don't agree with everything you do or say, but you know you've

been a very consistent light in my life. Um you tell me when you think I'm wrong, you give me constructive criticism, and you do it in love. So for people who thought that this was gonna be some big debate or I was gonna got you interview for my last one, it was gonna be some crazy explosive thing.

That's not what I'm gonna do with my sister ever, never gonna do that with her, and you know I have just the greatest respect for you and in appreciation, so thank you for joining me as we in the season. On the fiftieth episode, I love you so much to us and wishing you all the light and all the flowers that you're gonna get from here on out. I'm so happy to see it. All the love and all the light, bro, talk to you, so congrats. I want to thank my sister Eddy Kay Williams again for a

great interview. If you enjoying the show, please leave us a review and read us with five stars on that podcast. To hear more of my episodes and get my weekly newsletter, go to English Street sixty dot com s last Gianna. You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and parlor at Gianno Caldwell. And if you're interested in learning more about my story, you please pick up a copy

of my bestselling book, which Ebany is actually in. It is called Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win back to the Americans that Luberalism failed. Especially thanks to our producer Drew Steale, researcher Aaron Kleveman, and executive producers Debbie Meyers and speaker, New Gingwich. All part of the Ginger Street sixty network.