Episode 37: Restoring Faith in the Public Square with Gov. Bill Haslam

I try to find the answers. This is Outlued with Gianno called one, but today on Outlive with Gianna Callwell, I'm very excited to have a guest who I have a profound respect for. And the reason for their profound respect is because you rarely see an elected official who brings God into the workplace. And it's an honor to welcome on Bill Haslam, who is the former governor of Tennessee. Thank you for joining the program. Governor, Hey, thanks for

having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Absolutely, We're blessed to have you. Now, let me ask you this because before we jump into your book, which is title of Faithful Presence, The Promise and Peril of Faith in the Public Square, why don't you tell me about your background but professionally because you have a really interesting background. You've been on the board of Sacks Fifth Avenue and

you've done tremendously well. So for God to do so well as you've done and jump into politics is pretty pretty interesting. Yeah, So i'll give you the short form. Actually we don't need the short form just telling all right, I'll give you the medium form that you don't want to be here all day. So, actually, wasn't in college thought I would be a pastor. And my plan was to to teach high school for a couple of years

and then be a pastor. And uh, my father's you know, if you're gonna be a pastor, you might be good to be around business for a couple of years and then you'd have exposure to that and then people you'd at least understand that world if if you're in a church.

And I went to work in business for a couple of years and ended up deciding I wasn't called to be a pastor and ended up liking business um and stayed doing in the business world for twenty years, first with our family business that has a chain of truck stops across the country, and then went to work for Sachs. This is in the the new days of the internet.

Literally it was internet retailing was brand new, this is the late nineties, and kind of helped them take their business online, which was interesting because I'm not a technical guy and I know nothing about fashion. But uh, the guy that was running the company just said, hey, we I'd like somebody just with some you know, the ability to build a team here that can make this happen.

So I did that, and then, uh, right after I finished set up, some folks came to me and said, hey, you should think about running for mayor of knoxhll im from Knoxville, Tennessee. And I laughed and said, you got the wrong guy. I literally said, I literally have no interest. But then, well, you should think and pray about it. It's kind of hard to say no, I'm not gonna think and pray about it. Uh, And so I did.

And I been meeting every Friday morning with a group of guys kind of an accountability group for twenty five years, and I brought it to them thinking they would laugh, and they said, we think you should think and pray about that, and we'll pray with you. And same thing with my wife and I thought she would go, no, please, don't do that. You know. Um, the only thing that would be, you know, worse than being married to a pastor,

be being married to a politician. Uh. But she said, you know, I think you should be serious about this, and uh and and pursue it. So ran for mayor and loved it. It's just you know, calling, they say, it's kind of where your desires meet the world's needs. And that's what being mayor was like of mown hometown. So ran in two thousand three, barely one really close election, ran in two thousand and seven and one again and then uh, same process running for governor, thinking about it,

prayed about talking a lot of people. Ran in two thousand and ten and in love. I mean, being governor of your own home state is is, in my opinion, one of the best job there is. So I ran in two thousand and ten, reelecting two thousand fourteen. Have been out of office for about two years now. Yeah, you do fairly well in the primary too. It seems as though there was a lot of respect for you

running for for these particular offices. Well, I think so, you know, political races sometimes you're about timing, right, I mean, there's times when the winds blowing one way and happens to be your way. At other times, sometimes you have a tail wind, sometimes you have a head wind. Uh. And so, as I said, my very first mayor's race was really close, and then after that we didn't have too many close ones, which is a lot. I can tell you this election nights when you're ahead by double

digits are a lot more fun. And when you're quitting out the last precinct coming just more of a celebration there. And I tell you, being a pastor in some ways can can be like an elected official because you meant to serve as just a lot of politicians who get

the serving part. Actually, I tell people that if if you and I swapped jobs and you you know, I went to be a pastor and you went to be in an office, you'd go This feels really familiar because it's a lot of relationships and it's also a lot of deciding between good things and other good things or bad things and worse things. You know, we're trying to decide are you're gonna put in the budget, you know, more money for mental health issues, or to pay teachers more,

or to help more disabled children. Well, there's not a bad idea there, right, but you can't afford to do everything you want. It's like at the church, like we're gonna spend more on our middle school program or our worship or our outreach, you know, and there's not a bad idea there, but right, you can't do everything. So I tell my friends who are pastors that you could go be a mayor, governor and it would feel a lot, a lot more familiar than you might think. Yeah. Absolutely.

Now what's really really interesting about you, I think is Forbes. Forbes has said, I believe it was Forbes said that you had a network of about two billion dollars. So you go from a businessman who has been extraordinarily successful to the public life. You don't need the job. You really have a servant's heart at that point, one could imagine, and you decide you're gonna get out there, you're gonna do it, and you're gonna make a difference in people's

lives and you end up succeeding. Well I hope. So, I mean, listen, the reason I ran was this, and it's it's it's really the reason I wrote wrote the book. It's easy in today's world for people just to give up on the public square on politics and say, well, I hate both of them. I hate both sides. You know, I don't. I don't want to hear any more of this.

But if we really do care about the common good, if we really do care to seek the places of the uh, the peace of the places where God has called us, the leverage that you can bring in a government role is huge. I mean, like, we decided we want to put in a free community college program for everybody in the state. We could do that. I couldn't do that in a private citizen. Don't. I don't care how much money you have. You know, we decided we

want to improve access uh for folks. Well you know, uh, you know Warren Buffett or Bill Gates or who you know, whoever you want to pick, Jeff Bezos. They might have all the money they want to do everything world, but they can't build their own interstate system. And in government, you really do have the ability to leverage serving a lot of people, if you'll take it as that opportunity. Absolutely, and you brought out with you. Let's jump into the book.

So this book will be released Tuesday. In the book, you argue that faith can actually be a redemptive in unifying force in the public square. As I'm sure you know some people will find as argument controversial as our culture has become increasingly secular and woke. If you wouldn't mind to tell us a bit about why you wrote the book why now? Yeah, I think two things. One, there's a lot of believers who would say, you know, the public square is it's too messy of a place

for believers. Um, you can't. I can do a lot more good other places. But uh, Martin Luther had a quote, and I'm gonna butcher, this isn't exactly right, but he said, send your very best of public service because the ambiguities of of life there take a real wisdom. He said, Hey,

I'm preaching the Holy Spirit does all the work. Uh. Now I don't person agree with him on that, but but you get the point, like, we we can't abandon the public square to people who are just going to be in it for their own purposes instead of to serve the common good. Um. So that's one reason. The second is this, Hey, it doesn't it's no secret that this country is incredibly divided, right, I mean, it's um our. Our presidential elections are close. The Senate, the U. S.

Senates divided fifty fifty. The House is six seats difference out of four thirty five. But we're not just divided. We're mad and we were mad at people on the other side and we think not only are they wrong, but they have bad motives. And everybody's looking around and going, i'd like this environment. I don't like this atmosphere. Somebody needs to change it, um. And the reality is the media is not going to change it. Their their their job is to stoke outrage. And the political parties aren't

going to change it. Their job is to elect their candidates. Well, my proposal here is what if people of faith could say, we want to be salt so that this meat doesn't go bad. We want to be light for this darkness. We want to bring as people who understand the need for justice and mercy. We we know you need both. We want to bring that to the public square, um, and do what God has asked us to do, to act justly, love, mercy and wal humbley. Wow, now that

I think that's especially quote in the scriptures as really powerful. Now, a lot of folks seemingly don't follow that book blueprint in the same way that you just mentioned. And as a person of faith, as a person who have operated in public life as a person person of faith, and one can do a lot of politicians talk about faith and Christianity and religion, but then there's folks that talk

about it and there's people who do live it. And I don't know you personally, but if I can look at your life just from a glimpse digitally, it looks like you've done uh pretty well, not just financially and professionally, but you you try to live out of life that Um, I think one one day God would appreciate or like or love or whatever however you want to phrase that. So, as as a man of faith, can you talk about

what religion, what role religion has played in your life? Yeah, listen, I would have never run for office if it wasn't for my faith. I would have. You know, there's a lot easier things to do, quite frankly, um, but I honestly felt like this is what I was called to do. Now. Uh. My wife used to laugh during the elections, like, Okay, you're called to run. The election will determine if you're called to serve UH and UH in office. But I think what I think, what you're hitting on is a

really key thing. Unfortunately, too many people in the political process use God rather than seeking to be used by God, and that's a there's a big difference there, and that's a big temptation. But you know, Scripture doesn't take lightly when we use our faith for our own ends. I mean, remember the story of Antonia, Sin Safire and acts, and you know everybody has given away everything, they have, their possessions, and they act like they do, but they really haven't.

And you know, God doesn't treat that lightly. So they were acting like something they weren't. And for us as believers to try to act like something that we're not in the public square in order to gain some advantage, that's using God and we shouldn't take that. We shouldn't take that lightly. We're talking to Bill has Them, the former two term governor of the Great State of Tennessee. We've gotten much more with him on his new book,

Faith and Politics. After a quick break. Critics, especially now you're talking about on a national age, critics probably say faith and religion are divisive, and we'll bring breed more

hate and polarization in our in our society. I'm really intrigued by how you responded to that in office, because a lot of that kind of conversation started in their early two thousands around the Obama here, or at least from what I can recall, I'm a little younger maybe than you, but I remember a lot of that starting around that time. Yeah, there's no question that heated up some of them. But I would argue, it's it's all. Our politics have always been pretty heated in this country

from the very beginning. But here's what I'd say, And you say, well, why could you know how people A lot of people would say, I don't buy the premise. I don't buy the premise that people of faith can make a difference in the public square. Hey, here's what it says this. You know, James talks about what wisdom from above looks, what looks like, and he says, what's some that's from above, and that's what we should be

looking for. And in office or as pastors, or in business or anything with that's from above is first pure, then peaceable, then gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, Impartial, and sincere. And if I said, if I went out and you and I walked down the street, we interviewed passers by in a totally secular context and said, tell me what people of faith act like in the public square. Not many would say open to reason, sincere, gentle, pure, open to you know, full

of mercy. We wouldn't get described that way. We'd get described as they really want to make their point, they really want to win the argument. And my I guess my argument in the book is this, as believers, we believe in truth. So this isn't about being mushy, and isn't about just being kind of in the moderate middle, no matter where that leaves you. This is about saying,

we want to get to the best answer. And if we think of our role is to serve the common good, then our our role is to get to the best are not just our answer the best answer? And when it comes to issues that are very divisive that the left continues to push today. You talk about abortion is one that comes up fairly often, and I know you're pro life, Um, thank you for that, and so am I. Uh, when when it comes to those kind of issues, the best answer is what the Bible says, choose life, is

it not? It is? So that that that's that's a great example. So thanks for bringing that up. So what I'd say is, I'm not asking you to change this idea that you know life begins at conception, and that you know we're we're we're all created in the image of God, and so taking that life and you know in the womb is is is destroying and is it is killing somebody that's truly created in the image of God.

I'm not asking you to change that. I'm just saying this, what if you approached the conversation in a different way. Here's what my point is, Christians, just like everyone else, we're just as likely to send the hateful email. We're just as likely in the argument to try to come up with the clever put down that will say, ha,

see I won the argument. But if our goal is to get to truth and not just to win the argument, I'd ask you this, has anybody ever changed your mind when they've come with a really clever put down of your position? No? Not quite No, No, so you don't. It actually just makes you dig in. So I'm saying do we really trust God? And saying rather than coming to this public discussion with hatred for the other side and with a desire to win the argument. What if we came as people who are who are humble in

general and yet committed to the truth. And I think we here's my point, as Christians. We we serve a God who exhibited what love and truth looks like at the same time. Right, That's what a cross is about. It's about uh, justice, that we needed someone to die for us and mercy a God who is willing to

do that for us. And so of all people, we should be people who bring to the public discussion this idea of bringing justice and mercy at the same time, justice and mercy, and and that kind of brings me to something I was talking about on the Era earlier today. We're talking about the defund the police movement, specifically in in New York City. UM as an example, shootings went up ninetiesent homicides went up, that was in this year, and violent assaults, felony assaults. I should say, uh, and

you have that's one side of it. Defund the police. We needed to strip all their resources away. They shouldn't be involved in any much of anything, no public safety. Then you have another side, um, the Black Lives Matter side who who advocates for similar things, but they're not necessarily to defund the police movement, but they've been a

part of that conversation. So when you're bringing the sides to the table that support the police holistically, they may want to see some incremental changes, but maybe not overarching reform of the police. How do you bring all these three sides to the table to have the conversation, You ask really good practical questions, by the way, because that's

what comes down to. So I'm I would definitely never be in favor of defunding the police because you know, is when people march through the streets saying no justice, no piece, they're saying, we want justice, we want we want the bad guys to get caught. And that's what we all want, right, we all want if somebody's doing something wrong, we want them to get you know, to

to to to stop that. Um and so but I would say, what there's probably is some real value for us and listening to the argument of why does that feel? Why do you have such a different view about law

enforcement than I do? Uh to that person and understanding there there's some pain in there, maybe from some unjust treatment, right, I mean, it's uh, let's listen, I got you know, I have I have too many friends who are who are black man, who say, hey, I still get worried every time I get pulled over in the car in

a way that I don't okay. So I'd argue that helps me when I have friends that I respect and love and they're they're you know, they're out doing doing what they're supposed to be doing and they get pulled over and they're terrified, And I think that would never strike me to be terrified. I'd be, you know, like, hey, why are you pulling me over? Um? So it helps me understand that I do I agree with their solution or their answer of defund the police. No, No, I don't.

I think it's a really bad idea. And I think people would once they had that, they'd be saying, oops, we picked the wrong door. So if I'm hearing you correctly, are you saying first, try to understand, Try to understand where the other side is coming from, so you can have the conversation versus. What we see a lot in politics is more so arguing across each other. No one's listening.

No one's really trying to have. The conversation is all about sound bites and talking points and and getting the slam dunk on Twitter where you get a million retweets bingo. I'm Bill Haslaman I proved that message, you know. I mean because because listen to getting that slam drunk on Twitter feels good. But it doesn't change anybody's mind, right, It doesn't change one person's mind. Now, a lot of people on your side will retweet it, and you're going, wow, cool,

Look you know, look how many retweets I got. But you didn't change one person on the other side's mind. Uh, nor would I say. You know, remember this, we're the people are supposed to love our enemies. Okay, that's really hard, particularly in today's world. You know, you get you look at what's happening in social media interchanges, go wow, it's really hard to love that person right now. But that's what we're called to do, and that's that's really hard.

People ask it's hard to be a Christian politician. I'm like, yeah, it's really really hard to love your enemies when they're taking shots at you twenty four hours a day. Um. But but again, that's still what we're called to do. And I think here's the other point i'd make is this. People come to me all the time and say, Bill, you don't understand what you're talking about. You don't understand

how high the stakes are. We're literally battling for the soul of America here and you're wanting us to bring a pillow to a knife fight. Okay, uh, And there's too much at stake to act the way that you talk about it said, Well, we don't say, in in other things that we should suspend God's rules for that, like you need to be ethical in your business unless you're about to go bankrupt, and then you can do

whatever you want. You know, we don't say you should be faithful to your wife unless somebody really really attractive comes, you know, we don't. We don't do that. We say God's truth is God truth. In politics, we say we don't really want to act the way God asked us too, because the stakes are so high. That's a good point. And there's a transition point. I want to ask you about that because you were saying keep the consistency and

as believers, we have to model a particular behavior. Now, how do you respond to some of the things that President Trump might have said, whether it be on television or interviews, and you know, we can be honest, and I'm I have no qualms about it. I think President Trump has done a lot of good from a policy perspective, but there were areas in which he was divisive. And I also understand that folks on our left are very divisive.

I get that. What do you say in regard to that when the President Trump some of the things that Eve has said or done, that we're divisive? You know, I think you're right. I mean that I agree. I mean, I think part of President Trump style was to try to divide the country, find some really how button issues and try to get a few more on my side than the other side. Uh. And folks on the left are guilty of that too, you know, that's their game. Let's find some arguments that get our folks fired up.

Uh And and that will rally people to the polls or to give more money or whatever it is that that I mean, he said, that's a little bit the game that both sides are playing. But my question would be, how's that working? You know, how where's that left us? And aren't we supposed to be different. I mean, if you read, if you read the Servant on the amount, the clear messages, be different, be different than the rest

of the world. And the reason I wrote this book is this Christians aren't acting any different than anyone else when it comes to this hateful political environment that we're in, and we're supposed to be different. So we need we need to do something different, right. And I would say with with that is that starts by we needed we need to act differently. You know when I mean hit the example like when the woman is caught in adultery and dragged before Jesus and the crowd. And the crowd

Jesus doesn't start with the woman. He starts with the religious types, right. He starts with folks like you and me. He says, okay, you know, everybody that hadn't sinned, go ahead and throw the first stones. And interestingly, it says, and beginning with the older ones, they dropped their stones and walked away. I think one of the things that you we realize older we get is like we realized, like,

I'm a sinful, broken person here. That's part of the gospel, right, That's part of what Romans three says all of sin and falls short of the glory of God. And I don't Jesus. When Jesus comes and looks at a situation it's a problem. He doesn't say, Wow, look the world has gone bad. Isn't the world horrible? He says, the meat's gone bad. That's what the salt was for. And

unfortunately the next line is a scary one. And if the salt is lost at saltiness, it's good for no thing except to be thrown out and trampled under feet under foot. I think that's my question is, let's, as believers we look at a situation like this and we say, man, I can't believe how bad the worlds. Let's start with us, because that's where Jesus usually starts. You know what's interesting

about you using? Uh that that time in scripture and I was having lunch with the pastor just about a couple of weeks ago, and he was using an example he without saying, let him cast the first stone, which is often we see in cancel culture. They didn't hear the part of he without saying, they just got stones. So what's your take on cancel culture? It should there be a redemptive uh phase and all of that or

what you do, Hunt. I mean, I love your word redemptive there, because there's nothing redemptive about the battle back and forth and what happens in cancel culture. Now, you know the other interestingt thing like you said, the point is, you know he does come back and tell the woman

go and send no more. Absolutely you know that that part happens to right, It's not just like okay, starting with you religious types, you know, you throw the first end stone, but he does actually personally address her at the end and say, hey, this isn't working. You need to change and repent to Uh. I'm you know the I don't. I don't see anything biblical about cancel culture. And so we have to be certain again starting with ourselves, that we're not doing that to other folks and say, oh,

that crazy liberal I'm you know, they don't. They're they're im who who would who would listen to them? Um? You know, unfortunately for us are fortunately we're we're we're with this idea that God says I've created man and woman in my image, and so then we have to

treat people differently because of that. That person who is the easiest for us to hate that person all of us right now, if I said, quick, ten seconds, think of who that person is who it's really hard for you level we can all come to that person or maybe two or three really quick. And God said you have to remember, Bill, that person is created in My

image and that changes everything absolutely. Wow. Let me ask you about this because and and it's interesting because I've often talked about and I know we kind of touched on it a little bit. I often talked talked about in my book Take It for Granted, how conservatism can went back to the American cyllaberalism failed. How it seems as though folks on the left are continuously trying to take God out of whether it be our government documents

or their political platforms. And you saw that happened in the d n C. In You might have seen that earlier this month, Joe Biden became the first American president not to use the word God in the National Day of Prayer proclamation. What was your reaction to that? You know, Here's here's my thought, is um, in in this country, um, folks who want to take faith out of the public square are missing the incredible history and role that people of faith have played in the polk square because of

their faith. The people who have build hospitals and started schools and all because of a trust and a faith in Christ. Okay, and we have founders people like John Adams that said, you know, our constitution is holy. I'm gonna mess up the quote here, but predicated on the idea of a belief in God, and it's it's you know, totally totally unable to to to govern the country without that. So this idea that somehow we're supposed to uh that our government is not supposed to uh include people of

faith acting on that faith. I don't know where they got that idea. That's that's always been part of who we are now. I think the genius of the of our found there's also was we're not going to have a government established religion because if when every time we do that, it's the church that loses. Think about where the church is strong around the world and where it's not. Think about Europe, where the church is not very strong.

There used to be a state religion there, and when the government becomes the church, the church is the one that loses, not the government. But do we really want to have a nation that is uh. We love a nation that acts more Christian, But I don't think we want an official state religion because then it will become an official state religion instead of who you are and what you are, and then it will change because of the political party. A person is running it. That's it.

That's it. Now, it's hard to deny that culture is becoming increasingly secular, especially as a left control so many of our institutions, our universities, the media, Hollywood. Do you find this trend troubling and if so, what can be done about it? Well? I do, I mean, I think our culture has changed a couple of thoughts. First, for us, for us as believers, the wrong thing to do is

to react out of fear, a speed of fear. But thank you, Like I said, thanks, I appreciate, And you know, fear not is all through scripture and we're not We're not supposed to act like, oh, you know, we used to be the home team and now we're the visiting team, and the visiting team. I'm I'm I'm afraid to play that role. It's just not who we're supposed to be. Should we be concerned that as the culture starts to change and our children, you know, grow up in a

different world. Should we be very mindful that we should? Um? And we need to realize we need to teach our children differently than we might have thirty years ago or fifty years ago in terms of what's okay and what's what's not okay. Um. But again, I think the second thing is we need to say, you know, think about the dollars and the time that have spent on outreach for the Christian faith recently, and the involvement that Christians have had in politics, and yet the world keeps kind

of shifting away from us. And I think my point would be, what we've tried, the way we've tried to do Christian politics has not worked because we haven't done it in a spirit of acting, acting justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly. Okay, I get I get that point. Now.

The tough part about it is, I think when you have institutions that are controlled, one in which our children listened to, and these messages are amplified by way of media, TV shows, Instagram, you have people, especially in in my age.

I'm thirty four, I'll be thirty five in December, but it's it's for dating as an example, has become increasingly tough for a lot of folks because you've got all this imagery plan what you should look like, what you should be, what kind of music you should listen to, and it's allowed for people to have real strong identity crisis, you know, Like it's just it's very hard for folks to really maintain their sense of who they are, what they grew up having when you have this amplification all

the time. You open up your iPhone and I add might pop up that says something that you know, us as Christians may not even want on their right and the government can play a role in that part, you know, obviously. But it's just an interesting environment. So I think you're

I think your your observations are really good. One I want to say this, like I said, as you look at that world changing, Like said, I've got my kids are about your age, I've got grandkids, and I think about, man, look at the world they're going to grow up in with, you know, everything from you know, the wildest worst kind of pornography available in two seconds on their phone to everything else that would happen. So what I'd take in

is should we be fearful about the cultural changes. No, should we be very mindful of them for the very reason you said? You bet? And would I tell you, if you're getting ready to raise children, that your children are going to grow up in a very different environment than you did And then my kids did, Yes, And so should you take a different approach to parenting because of that? Yes? You should. Now since you brought up your your children, I want to mention something that is

in your book, and you may like. Man, my book isn't out just yet, but it was in the just a sample copy. I should. I wish I had a copy of it to read from. I only saw some of it, but um, you said, and too will Hannah, Anna, David, Leah and Matt. As hard as it is to be and politics, it's even harder to be in a politicians family. Thanks for loving me so well and for standing up for me even when I didn't always deserve it. I

love all of you. So what were the times that you can tell us what you felt like you didn't deserve them to stand up and love you in that way? Well, I mean, I'll give you a great except, like I said, running for office is really hard. And you know, one of the things we're supposed to be as believers, as you know, being anxious for nothing, but in everything by

prayer and supplication, thanks to the Lord. So I can tell you I spent a year and a half of campaign running for governor anxious, you know, uh, thinking, oh, what happens if I lose? You know, what happens if my opponents say something bad about me? All the things that you feel personally vulnerable in. Uh, you know, there's it's just as a politician you feel all that. As

you'r as their family, you feel it even stronger. And so you know, there's any number of times when I would say, um, you know, how did I do on being anxious for nothing? Not so good? How did I do on you know? It says you know, but with humility, each of you consider others better than yourselves. How did I do on that? Not? Always so good? I mean, I can go through lots of things that, um, And I remember one time one of my I was listening.

When you're in politics, it's a little like being a pastor. Everybody wants your time, okay, and so you learn to have these quick conversations. You know. If you don't, you'll you'll never get home at night. Yeah, you try to

get out of a one with me. I'm gonna give you the medium story, not the whole Well, but like I said, I'm or I'm you know, hey, I'm I'm walking into church and in between, you know, the the our security agents, car and my few fifty people try something like if I have all those conversations, I'm never getting worship. And the same thing with if I'm going to a restaurant or whatever. And so you kind of learned to have these really quick conversations with people like hey, thanks,

blahah blah and keep moving. And one time we're at Thanksgiving so with or with my extended family, and my son kind of grabbed me and goes. You realize you're having two minute conversations with every about it, right, And I'm like, no, I didn't, but but you're a hundred percent right. I had had that, had just become who I was, and I wouldn't listen. I was kind of given the two or three minutes and move on to the next person deal. And there's a good example of

learning the wrong lessons. Before we move on, let's take a quick break back on the self. Basically, what you were saying is, Hey, there was some shortcomings as a believer, but you get better with Tom and you just continue to continue to push your best footfall, and hopefully that's what redemption looks like, right as we all start to look a little bit more like the god that we were creating the image of a Now, let me ask you this question. Do you have any regrets from your

time in public office? Oh? Man, I have a lot. I mean, you know, it's such a rare opportunity to get to do it that you want to make certain you take maxim advantage of. And there's lots of things that, oh boy, if I had taken a different approach, which we might have gotten that bill passed that lost in the legislature, or if I had hired this person, we might have been able to provide better services. You make so many decisions in office, and some of them are good,

but not all of them. But so do I have some regrets for things I do differently? Yes? Do I have any regret about doing it? No? I still consider it an incredible blessing to have had that calling for for that period of my life. And and that's good that you mentioned that. I appreciate you you telling me that. And as a person who has been a politician, I elected by the people and of course need to represent their constituents as you you did, and look at their

best interests. What happens if a politician's conscious conflicts with what this constituents want? Do you ever? Did you ever have that experience as mayor a governor? Several times, and sometimes not just your sometimes you're concentime, just your your thoughtful opinion, because as governor you might know more of the situation than everyone us, uh, and you might know the rest of the story. So there were times when you know, the overwhelming, you know, volume of emails and

phone calls was do this or don't do that? That We did not do what those folks were saying. So sometimes it was for matters of conscience what I what I felt to be the right thing. And sometimes it was just at the end of the day, my my

judgment on that issue. And I wouldn't say it was necessarily a moral right or wrong, just I hear you understand, But given where I am and what I've learned about the situation, this is the one the path that I think is right, and so ultimately the decision is with you, and you have to weigh where you what you feel is the best decision for your constituents, and and how you feel as a as a moral reasoning. Is that right?

I think you did a nice job of summarizing. Okay, now correct me if I'm wrong, But I believe you did not vote for Trump in No, I'd said I was not going to uh in in sixteen when some of the issues came up. Actually, what I said was this is when the whole scandal around Billy Bush and oh yes, yes, yes, I remember that Saturday, trust me,

I was on the phone with the R and C. Yeah. Right, So at the time, I just said, hey, I think it'd be better for the Republican Party at this time, uh if uh, you know, if uh Trump stepped aside and let Mike Pins be the candidate. And I just at the time I thought that that would be the right thing for the country. Okay, So in you said that you would vote for him if he was the nominee.

So what was the change there? Well, you know, listen, you know anytime you talk about President Trump that you could go into a long conversation right as you did earlier about uh you know, streaks and weaknesses. Um and I don't I don't know if that's the that that's something I want to delve into deep. Right, Like I said in two thousands sixteen, I just felt really strongly, given the circumstances, that was not the right step forward for the Republican Party or for the country. Okay, but

you had a change of heart and you supported him. Well, I'm not sure certain he would count me as among his most fervidces. I'm sure he has a good long memory too. Yeah, I know he, I know he does. Well. For my final question, I want to ask you about the future of the Republican Party. Do you think the party is a in a good place today and moving forward?

What should a GOP be doing and put itself in a better per I think we're I think it's a really important decision point that there's certain things that I think if the party has always been strong about that I want us to stay strong about about. I believe in, you know, I believe the market based economy we're in is a lot better than a socialist based economy. I believe in Republican Party's position on on matters around um life and choice of crow life and first row choice.

I believe, Um, the historic dance we put on America playing a leading role in the world are really important. Um, I don't think we've historically done a good job. What I think is what I think President Trump realized was there's a whole lot of America that feels left behind. And they look at the Democrat Party and say, they're talking about transgender bathroom uses and that's not where I am. And they look at the Republican Party and say, it

feels like a lot of country club types. That's not me. And they felt, you know, hey, this world changing fast. I'm I'm feeling like I'm being left behind here. Nobody's been concerned about me, and I don't think we can be that party and still be effective. So Republicans need to do a better job at outreach and bringing more people into the tent, especially African Americans. I think Trump was really gifted when it comes to that. Obviously, he

had some missteps and some things he perhaps shouldn't have said. However, there was no candidate or president that I've seen that talked about black folks and what he was going to do for them so much, and it obviously paid dividends when it came to election night nine as great as some people might have predicted, but certainly more than Democrats and most media expected. Yeah, I think that's fair and that was what surprised a lot of people in the

election result. Is that not just with Blacks, but with Thepanics, the vote was. It was a lot different than what people if. If you ask why the election was closer than people are expecting, I think that's it. Well, Governor, thank you for joining Out Loud with Giano Caldwell. Governor Bill Haslam and I certainly appreciate it your your time today, and I think one day we're gonna work together in some capacity. We'll do something. But I hope that we

can stay in touch. Sincerely, now, I've loved the conversation. Thanks for letting me be on the show. I want to thank Governor Bill has Them again for a great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review and rate us with five stars on Apple Podcast. If you have any questions for me, please email me at Out Loud the Ginguish Come and I'll try to answer them in our future episodes. And please sign up for my monthly newsletter at gingligh Street sixty dot com, slash

out Loud. You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and parlor at Giano Caldwell. And if you're interested in learning more about my story, please pick up a copy of my best selling book title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win back to the Americans they Liberalism failed. Special thanks to our producer John Cassio, researcher Aaron Klinman, and executive producers Debbie Miners and speaker New Gingwich, all part of the Ginglish Street sixty network