Episode 33: A BLM Activist Debates a Police Chief

and the former police chief. This is Outlied with Gianna called Welcome back to Outlive with Gianno called Brow I've got an important and timely show for you guys this week. My guests are Zelli Amani and Clarence Cox the third. Zelli is a community organizer and Black Lives Matter activists who founded the Black Lives Matter Liberation Collective, a group of black students dedicated to transforming higher education. Clarence as the former president of the National Organization of Black Law

Enforcement Executives. A veteran of law enforcement for more than thirty years, he served as the chief of police for Clayton County Public Schools in Georgia. On today's show, Zeali and Clarence and I discussed race and policing in America. Let's go. We know what just happened this past week with verdict Derek Chauvin, and I wanted to get the reaction from both of you guys. The jury found the former Indianapolis police officer Derek show And guilty on all

counts and the death of George Floyd. What was your reaction to that? Wow? For myself, UM, when I heard the reaction, I lit out like a deep sigh and I didn't even know that I was holding my breath, you know, during the whole or deal. So I think for me it was something that took me by surprise, but also at the same time didn't give me the same since assess actually not thought it would have. Well, I kind of got the Zelie saying as far as

far as the satisfaction piece. But for me, I wasn't surprised because I watched the prosecutor UM really dive down and do a really good job meticulously to lay out that evidence. And uh, you know, I remarked to one of my friends, I said, you know, Ray Charles can see this because it's so obvious and he's blind and dead. So at these jurors don't get it. We've got a

major problem here in our country. But you know, as Zelie just said, I don't know if I was as satisfied as I wanted to be, because that's just the beginning of a continuation of work to be done. I think that, you know, while Keith Ellison and his group did a great job on that, it's a broader problem.

And you know, if we can't identify these kinds of offices earlier on, we got you know, a lot of work to do and and and we identify his problems and his his I guess demeanor in his his culture earlier George Floyd wouldn't have been murdered and he'd still be here and we'd be living happily ever after. Well, thank you for that reaction, and I truly agree. I do think that there's reformed this absolutely necessities, and you have to continue to push the ball forward so we

can identify the bad officers. But understanding that we know the overwhelming majority of officers are honorable people who serve on a day to day basis basis to protect us all. Now, there's been some conversation in the pressed um just areas of the press who have said that they believe that drewors made a particular decision because they were concerned about threats of rioting and looting if they didn't make a

particular decision. I reject that personally, because juries have convicted mobsters, terrorists, gang members, all kinds of folks who would literally target their families for making a decision against them. Did you all think that any of those threats of rioting had any impact on the jury's deliberation and conviction? Personally, I didn't.

I think that during the Voordir process of selection, you could listen to the response from some of those jurors and you can tell that they were very intelligent people or people that got it. But also you if you look back to what I just said about the way the prosecution laid it out, I think the most compelling I guess uh testimony came from one the chief of

police and several um officers from that department. But then the doctor who you know, laid out the exam piece and showed that there was no other cause for the death other than the affhixiation where this guy was on his stomach with a knee on his neck. Um, you know, it was no way in the world that they could have come with another thing. And in this, in my mind, is an applaud to a breakdown of the thin blue

wall that people refer too. Oftentimes when the police chief of the department and several members of the department can talk about what they had been trained and and and there have been trained the same way, and they talked about the failure of him to do his job. I mean, you know, what else do you need? We agree, especially with your sentiment where there's been historical incidences where jurors are actually threatened with their lives and still make the

right decision UM. And we're also seen where and other incidences in other towns where UM officers were indicted and charged and there was still threats of rebellions or uprisings in Ferguson or Baltimore, those jurors still chose to you know, find them and the officer UM not guilty, or in some cases where it comes to like a grand jury

that to choose not to indict the officers. So there's been many, many different cases, right and when you look at it, only seven officers since two thousand and five have ever been convicted for a lot of these police involved UM shootings. So it's a very very very very very small number of officers who have been charged or even indicted and convicted for incidences, and jurors always in those cases tend to, you know, find the officers guilty

or innocent. Rather, Zelie, I want to ask you this question because there's been a lot of conversation about the Derek Shechlvin and George Floyd um Chauvin trial. Of course, he killed George Floyd, but people have said that this conviction isn't simply about Derek Shelvin. It's a conviction of America as a racist system. And I know there's been members of the Black Lives Matter movement who who have echoed those sentiments. Do you believe that the system of

policing is a racist system? Yeah? Um, personally, I do believe that the system of policing is racist system from its origins, and you know, all throughout American history, UM, it has been proven to be a racist institution. Now, does this necessarily mean that every single person that's employed by the police department is someone that is racist? I don't necessarily believe that, right what, they are all working in a racist institution. Right, and the same thing goes

for our public education system. I'm an educator. I know the anti blackness that happens in our education system. Am I going to say that every single teacher in the education system is racist? No, but I know that they are in the system and unfortunately are perpetuating the anti blackness and the mask incarceration of our youth. So when I say that something is you know, racist, it doesn't mean that those individuals are out there, you know, saying the in word or have a clue Klux Klan outfit

in their in their closet. But uh, we're saying that they are perpetuating something that is um m harming Black communities instead of helping them. Now, Chief Cox, you've been in law enforcement for many, many years. You ran one of the largest police organizations with the executive leaderships, and we're talking police chiefs in Chicago, New York and many other places. Do you believe that you've been a part

of a racist system of policing? Well, what I would say, I would go even further than that, Uh, Giano, I think the criminal justice system has systemic racism components throughout and much like what Zelli saying that does not mean that we're saying every police officer is a racist or has racist practices. I think there's a culture that I

guess fosters that racism. UH. In dealing with UH communities of code, I think that we police, and unfortunately, I've seen some of my African American brothers police our own communities differently than we should, um you know. And a lot of that is not a police matter. A lot of it's uh because of our socio economic situations. UM you know. You find a lot of poverty in our neighborhoods, you find a lot of lack of health care and other things. And I think until this country gets really

serious about addressing those needs, we're gonna have this continuation. Unfortunately, because when people find that they are somewhat a minority in all aspects of life, they get you know, less than UH favorable healthcare, less than favorable attention unless there's you know, uh an effect on the other side of the tracks, I like to call it. So, there's been a drug problem in this country for many, many years, and being that a good bit of my career was

in drug law enforcement. I saw in the early eighties with the crack epidemic and we just fondled it in and we called it the War on drugs. So now that there is a opioid problem and prescription drugs are being abused, it's now a health crisis, and it's being police totally different. And when you have these types of things over and over again, and brown and black people are the I guess the guinea pigs of that, then you have these type of issues. So I would say, yeah,

there has been systemic racism throughout. I mean, you look at the minimum mandatory sentences that put a lot of people in jail in the eighties with the crack epidemic, and you know, you look at Barney made Off and others who have destroyed you know, rich or affluent families and then got less than than those type sentences. So, I mean, we could go on and on about the

racism examples in the criminal justice system. Now, of course there's been instances of racism, We've seen that, but you believe it to be systematic in the way that just about every police department is touched, you know, talking to you, uh, President Cox, every just about every police department that has been touched has has some areas that they need to improve around race. It's not just one bad police department or maybe three police officers in a particular department, which

we've seen. Um. You look at Ferguson, you look at even Minneapolis, they've had a number of complaint stylesands of complaints, and there's not been much of anything done into recently when they after George Floyd. So you're thinking that this is across the board I do, and with eighteen thousand

police ages is around the country. There is an immediate need for some standards that would be applicable in every every agency because you don't know what you're gonna get from New York to South Georgia when it comes to law enforcement, because they're all made up with different policies, different standards, different cultures. Um. You know, for an example,

when you talk about racial profiling. You know, just this past week, we had a young rapper in Atlanta who accused the Atlanta Police Department of racial profiling him while traveling through the harsh Phield Jackson Airport. UM. And it turned out not to be the Atlanta Police Department but

the Clayton County Police Department. So what I'm saying to you is as long as money is associated with policing, it's gonna be those kinds of problems as well, because a lot of agencies can't don't have the budgets of a New York or l A p D. But they make their money by doing other things, you know, drug interdiction,

traffic stops, um, those kinds of things. And you get to think when a lot of these enforcement efforts are conducted, they're actually in the black and brown communities, and they get a different set of policing versus you know, on the other side of the tracks, where you know, Mrs Mrs Jones runs a light, we stop and tell her, Okay, Mrs Jones, next time, you gotta be very careful. But Bobo comes through the light on the other side of the tracks. He's playing his music loud. He asked the

officer why did he stop him? And before you know it, he's got a citation and he's off on his way. That's so what I'm saying, Yes, there is a very very different approach and and and and you know President Obama tried to address it in the twenty one Century Policing Document when he said that, you know, agencies should have the hiring makeup that reflect the demographics of their community.

If you bring a guy into a poverty struck in black community who has never seen an African American, he's probably not gonna know how to deal with that person and know our cultural habits, and therefore it's gonna be

a miscommunication at some point. Okay. So we've also seen other elements of black law enforcement officers who might have grown up in the same community, that's u Chicago as an example, in Inglewood as an example, and they know the cultural habits of the individuals and someone still dies at the hand of the police. Does that make it a racist incident? Does that make it? I mean, obviously it depends on the what actually happened, But you still kind of see the same approaches no matter if the

cop is black or white. So is it a matter of um people talking to officers different showing a particular set of respect for officers. As I was talking when I was growing up, you gotta respect police officers, yes or no, sir. What's what's the what's the distinction here? That's no longer applicable with today's culture. And I think again that's the culture of the agency and the what's what's allowed. Okay, so you know, every chief, if he's honest, will tell you he knows has a good idea. Who's

these problem kids, problem problem officers are. But at two o'clock in the morning, when guys are standing on the corner, Mrs Jones is blowing the chief's phone up or writing emails. I want to say, I want this corner clear to they're breaking in cars. The Chief's gonna send that message back down stream and tell you know, his subordinates. I want something done about it. He didn't at that point care how it's done. He just wants it cleaned up,

and he's gonna send that message. And how they interpret it could be something totally different. I'm not saying that there are chiefs who are out here instructing these officers to go do rogue things by no means. But I'm saying that if you are worth your assault as an administrator, you kind of know who's on your team and what's going on. If you don't, you know, if you you turn your head and have a blind eye to it, that's your fault and you should be liable some kind

of civil cifically uh civilly um. If you don't do something thing about it, because we should be asking our community what do they expect from policing, and we should be able to give it to him in the right way. You don't walk in the walmart and they tell you what you want to buy today. You go in there and you buy what you want or what you need.

And that's how policing should be in my mind, in our communities, because you can't police every community is saying, but you can have policies that would be applicable to protect the sanctity of the community. And I think that's where we gotta go. Okay, I want to direct my next question is Zelie and if you would Chief Cox to to follow up after that. By now, I'm sure you've both seen the video of the white police officer at Columbus, Ohio who responded to the call about someone

armed with a knife. The officer arrived at the scene and shot a black female teenager who was trying to stab another black female teenager. Do you think the police officer acted correctly and save the life or do you think he should have tried something else to deescalate the situation? Yeah, right,

so I think that's um a great question. And it's one that a lot of people are having right now, this whole bit conflict about you know, police violence, if that was an incident of police violence, and I personally would say, like, yes, it was an incident of police violence. And the way the reason why I say that is I'm an educator, all right. I teach in the classroom. Unfortunately, I have to break up fights sometimes sometimes those kids

have weapons. Sometimes those kids have you know, things that can seriously injure someone. And if I say, for example, if I lived in a town or or a state that allowed teachers to carry guns, and if I pull out a gun to like shoot down a student, everyone would look at me like like I did something something wrong. And teachers all across America are pretty much expected to you know, protect their students even if a student has um a weapon, and in many instances people teachers are

able to disarm those individuals. And I think that instead of us thinking in a way that you know, the officer was correct and what they did and that he saved their life, at this same time, he took a life, So it was a life really saved in any of those equations, and we need to think about what what ways if there was possible that that could have ended differently, And think about how can we change the thinking of police officers where instead of thinking that, you know, um,

firing a lethal weapon is the way to disfuse that situation in that moment, what other ways could that have been handled? All right? And I think when we start having those conversations, we can start to say to ourselves, like, maybe that situation could have been uh de escalated in a much faster way, and both of those lives may have been saved. Even if the young woman was stabbed, she could have been stabbed and saved. But I think that the shooting just us just ultimately took someone's life

that didn't need to be taken. So let me ask

you this question as a follow up, Zli. So, if this was your daughter, your sister, and I'm referring to the young lady who was not behind the knife, but the one who almost became a victim to to the knife, and if she would have successfully cut that young lady's throat and killed her, and it was a police officer on the scene who could have stopped the situation, would you have rather your sister or your daughter had died just to prevent a shooting in that situation, you know,

like thankfully, uh, you know, I would say that the officer had decent aim, right, because he could have shot the people next to him, right the girl next to her, So we don't know what would have happened, right, So how would I would have felt if I was in that situation and he ended up shooting not just the girl but also an innocent bystandard? What if the bullet went through someplace else and shot somebody else? Um, So we have to think about like the whole community there

that's literally been traumatized from that incident. And I think about the girl that was even um saved. If we interviewed her, like what she think to herself right now, that she would what would she rather have? What she had rather have that girl alive? I think that she would rather have that girl alive, you know, and if there was any other option, she would have hoped that

officer would have been able to take that one. Do you think that was a racist cop killing someone in that situation because people have been on on social media saying that there was another instance of a racist police

officer murdering a young black person. Do you agree with that assessment, I wouldn't necessarily say that they're racist, because I don't know what's in their hearts and minds, right, But when we look at so many different instances of individuals who were armed and who were white, and who were able to leave with their lives, I think that sometimes when we think about racism, it's not necessarily about if that cop ever call someone inward. It's about does

he value that humans that that other person's life. And I don't think that he valued her life to the point where he was willing to do anything, you know, in order to save her life. Chief, did this officer performed correctly in your view? So thank you? And I respectfully,

um uh, you know, entertain Zelie's comments, but I disagree. Um. And then the thing about this is, as I viewed this over and over and and I've listened to various commentaries, and I've even gone to the Chicago website of Accountability for Policing and they have a couple of different versions of the video. I'm sorry I'm mixing too. I'm sorry

I've looked at so many shootings lately. I'm sorry I'm confusing to Chicago with the Columbus but on the Columbus shooting, I think that was a justified shooting, and that when he also got out of the vehicle, he was already giving commands and that's part of the use of force continued and nobody was following the commands as this young man was given. And in this situation, I've heard many folks say, well, why didn't he deploy a taser? I think America is expecting tasers to be the magic one

in a lot of these instances right now. Tases embody cameras that are most wanted things from our citizens. Ury and every agency, first of all, don't have tasers. Every agency don't have bloody cameras, unfortunately. But this young lady failed to follow any of the commands, and this officer had nothing else in my mind, that he could have done in that short length of time that he had.

This was a split second decision. And actually I claused that officers response because had he not, um, you know, protected the life of the young lady who was about to be a victim, um, then he would have been criticized for not doing his job and he would have

violated his oath of office. One the other piece to it, is just like you know, ZELI just referred this guy had some extreme marchmanship capabilities because I know in my mind as I watched him go down range with those rounds, I'm like, Wow, this guy is is pretty proficient with his firearm. And that's a good professional officer in my mind, because that's what we're taught in the academy. We're taught. You know, so many people have said, you know, why

did he shooting in the chest? Why didn't the shooter in their leg? What did he we as a police officer, if you don't shoot in the chest during your qualifications period in training, you're not allowed to care a firearm. There's no other acceptable points of injury, so to speak, with a firearm other than center mass we call it, and that's right in the middle of the chest, because that's uh most likely going to put you down. Um So, in my mind and based on what I've seen so far,

this is a justified shooting. And I don't appreciate um O our country putting all these in one bag. And and and I think a lot of people because of the tension that's going on with other shootings, and there's some bad ones out there, and I'll be first to tell you we cannot put this Columbus shooting in the same bag as we can put this is not like a little Kwan McDonald type shooting in Chicago. And I'm still looking at the one in North Carolina. I'm not

really sure on that one. It's as well. Yeah, um, but you know, it's unfortunate that we keep having these. We're talking to Zeali Amani and Claren Scott's the third of Black Lives Matter activists and a former police chief. We've gotten much more with them after a quick way in terms of putting all the shootings in one bag.

And we've seen time and time again and there's a right officer involved, and there was a shooting w black person, no matter that they're young, old man, woman, whatever, there is deemed racist in my concern, especially being someone who comes from a very dangerous area on the South side of Chicago, and having just three years ago Memorial Day weekend, my younger brother in the car with two of his friends, and two men walked up shot the car twenty five times.

He lived, but his best friend died in his arms. So considering the environment that we're in now, when it comes to police again America. If every police involved shooting with the African American is deemed racest, what if it happened tomorrow where my little brother, that situation that happened three years ago, and a white officer was around the corner, heard the call, and he found out that the suspects were black, and there's a shooting going on that he

can possibly save a life. But hell, i don't want to be called a racist, so I'm not gonna get involved. I'm gonna way to the bullets fly and they get away, and then maybe I'll get around to get the ambulance. When is it that we begin to have a really honest dialogue about policing in America. We're doing that right now, but we've seen it become so politicized. We've seen with Black Lives Matter, Democrats have gotten in alved and they've made it more about their appeal to the black community

versus real, real policy changes. We saw what Tim Scott did last year when he was trying to pass the police reform bill, and he offered Democrats an opportunity, a manager's amendment, to put whatever they wanted in the build, and they walked away from the table because they wanted it to be about politics. They wanted to win elections off of it. And it's been my saying black lives

don't matter the Democrats black boats do. So with that consideration in mind, especially, use that lead because you're you're a part of the movement, you're an organizer, you run a chapter. What is it we can do to take politics out of these discussions and talk more about policy? Yeah,

I don't think that you can um separate the two, right. Um. I think what Clarence was saying earlier in the broadcast was really really phenomenal because when we talk about the issues of why we have policing or why our areas are heavily policed in the first place. When you think about the safest communities in your state, the safest community, um that you know off the most safest communities don't have more police officers, right, they usually have less police officers.

Was made a community safer is they have access to more resources. They don't have more cops, they have more they have better jobs, better healthcare, better better educational system, have better quality food, better recreation services. Those are the

things that make communities safer and stronger. So when the urban communities want to be safe, Why instead of giving us jobs and better quality education, you give us more police officers, right, And that that's the disconnect that's going on right there when we say that in order to fight crime, um, it's not by hiring more police officers. You fight crime by fighting poverty, and we're not doing that,

We're not doing at all. And instead, by putting more police officers, you're actually increasing the proximity to police officers and uh the black community which is already strained, and creating these in these interactions which can be volent or whereas Clarence point out, can be predatory, where these officers are now just on certain communities over for various um infractions.

And to really really really get into these conversations is really important because we really need to understand the role of policing in this country and really think about how can we re reimagine public safety? How can we reimagine public safety? So we hear the cries of defunding the police, it's not about like getting rid of public safety, It's about how can we reimagine public safety? Because domestic violence is happening in our neighborhoods, child abuse, and sexual saul

is happening in our neighborhoods. You can hire seven hundred cops, eight hundred cops. Domestic violence is still happening. People are still not safe. So how then can we use the little mental money that we do have to allocate it

in other areas that can actually make people safer. And these are the conversations that we really do have to start having, Like our police always effective doing every single job, because police do so many different roles that they may not be necessarily be you know, necessary in that if I got into a minor car accident, do I really need an armed police officer there at that moment just to take a report? The officer could be doing something

much more you know serious. He could be out you know, uh responding to a robbery or shooting, but right now he's you know, taking notes or buying a report. Or if I uh come into my house and it's already got broken into, I don't really need an armed police officer there. I just need someone to take the report,

and that doesn't necessarily have to be an officer. So how can we reimagine the roles and the duties of police officers and kind of like break it down and see like where do we need them and where do we not need them, and how do we minimize the interactions with individuals? And that is why we need to have these conversations about politics and policy. To Zeli's point, I agree, Uh, And it's funny you you talk about that.

I just co chaired a task force called Reimagining Public Safety along with my colleague, doctor sed Alexander, were both past presidents of Noble National Organization Black Law Enforcement and and and you're right, we've got the first defined public safety. That's the first piece. Because public safety could also be you know, lead in water, in in in Michigan, because that's a safety issue. Public safety is a lot of things.

And I think what has happened is over a period of time we've segued from just being the police to being as you say, uh, you know, the counselors and mental health coordinators and all of these things. And we we we don't have the toolbox of the capacity to band with to perform all these things. But you know, in every community across this country, if you have an emergency, whatever the emergency it is, you din nine one one. And when you down nine one one you expect some response.

The majority of the time that's a law enforcement officer police officer. So we've got the first in public safety. What is public safety? And when we talk about defunding, I don't agree with the defunding mechanism, but I do agree that if we have agencies that cannot comply to a certain set of standards, a certain than a certain set of of goals and commissions, then they should not be able to receive money from the federal government for funding.

They should not be able to participate in the asset forfeit your program where if an officer stops a drug dealing with a car full of money, they can no longer see that money and sees that car and put it into an operational budget. It should go into maybe a federal budget or a state budget, because then that

gives them an incentive to do right. So if we're going to get this thing right, and you talk Giano about the politics and the policing, it's going to be there as long as people continue to have some sort of money at the at the bottom of everything, almost as money. And I think as long as these folks don't feel the pinch from the money and it's popular. You know, everybody's out now with a sound bite saying, you know, we need to do this, We need to

do that. There's more practitioners in law enforcement there and then there is in any other profession. If you think about it, if a doctor botches a surgery, he pays the insurance, go plays golf until they pay it off, and these back on the operating room tomorrow. If we were to put those same type of standards in law enforcement, you have to have a certain certification. If you screw up, you get put on a list, and then you are

not able to go from one agency to another. We can stop this, but this is a growing cancer across the country because if I screw up at this agency and it doesn't make the news, and sometimes even if it makes the news, I'm able to go get a job somewhere else until somebody figure it out. You know. So I think we've we've got a long way to go. But these kinds of conversations are the healthy conversations, because we're sitting here of an adult conversation on how to

work this out. The people that UH really empower to do these things are not doing them because nobody wants to lose. It's not about winning and losing. It's about what's best for the American public. These people in our communities demand more, and until we can build trust and legitimacy in our law enforcement agencies, we're not going to get the respect that we used to get. You know, I heard one of you guys said minute ago, when you were growing up, everybody respected police and all that.

You know, my first call, I knocked on the door and lady says, who is it? I said, police? Lady said, police poets paid at least thought about. I will never forget that because what she said it stays in my head. Most officers don't make the money that they want to make or should make for the job that they do, and nobody respects us, and a lot of that is our fault because of some things like what deare chevling

just did? You know? So it's it's not all. Everybody has skin in this game, and I think until everybody takes a role, in active role in trying to correct this and not playing the blame game, pointing fingers, Oh, it's no, it's you. It's as you as you, we're not going to solve this. We can have conversations all day long, was Zalie. I wanted to follow up on

something you mentioned in terms of defunding the police. Now I've seen on your Twitter you've mentioned defunding the police on a number of occasions is something you clearly believe in. And to be honest, there's been a number of police organizations that have been defunded across the country, to the tune of almost nine hundred million dollars in police funding in some of the most major jurisdictions across the country.

Not with that being the case, we saw a thirty three percent increase in homicide last year UM for sixty two or sixty six of the largest police jurisdiction saw increases and at least one category of violent crime in and we continue to see crime go up in a number of these areas. Police officers are leaving their positions at alarming rates for a number of police departments. Police departments are being defunded. But who is it Who is it hurting more? Is it? Is it hurting the officers

who decided to just give up the career. Maybe you get a bad officer off the street, Maybe you get a good officer off the street. But isn't that making our our communities more vulnerable to violence and crime? Not necessarily, I think that we shouldn't be always conflating about the rise and violent crimes at the same time. Where we see a rise in COVID nineteen cases, right, we see a rise of unemployment in a lot of the same

urban areas. So a lot of these urban areas, um some people haven't been to work since the pandemics has started. So we see increase in a lot of these violent crimes and a lot of these situations. So I wouldn't necessarily say that the rise of violent crime has anything to do with defunding the police departments or uh police

department apathy. I think is there zat exact opposite. Going back to defunding the police, right, A lot of people are scared when they hear the term defunding police again because they think of it as what is going to happen, Who's going to keep us safe? Where Again, where Clarence was saying, it's not about defunding or getting rid of

public safety, is about reimagining public safety. And what we see right now is happening where many of these towns are defunding the police, they're actually funding other initiatives like

anti violence initiatives. We see that anti violence initiatives like violence interrupters have UM significant um um improvements in Chicago and the Bronx where they're able to use their violence interrupters to reduce retaliations and UM do ceasefires and really work with these at risk communities to prevent gun violence. These are the types of things that we need to be UM focusing on. One of the things UM I

talk all the time. To give an example, when we knock on doors to talk to many community members and ask them with some of the wrong things that the city needs improvement. They always mentioned recreation, right, They always mentioned, our kids have nothing to do out here in the streets. There's no football programs, no more, there's no basketball programs, there's no recreation centers. And I tell them that the city's budget is two hundred million dollars and forty million

dollars goes to the police department salaries. That's almost a quarter million, quarter percent, but only two million dollars goes to the recreation department. Only two million dollars to fund the activities for the use. And then when people hear that they're saying, you know, like you know, maybe we can like you know, shift or allocate some money from the police department, which has the largest budget, and put it someplace else into the kids. And again, we look

at the demographies of our police department. Majority of our police do not even live in our communities. So you think about that's forty million dollars that's not going into our urban areas. That's forty million dollars going into the suburbs and surrounding towns. So what happens if we actually invest ten million dollars or five million dollars, even forty million dollars into people who actually live here, who actually

need the money. And I think with those types of thinking, it's how we are able to drastically improve our neighborhoods when we think about money and who we are investing into. Now, you mentioned the COVID nineteen, the rise in the COVID nineteen cases, and I'm assuming that you're saying that because of COVID nineteen, a lot of people were laid off their jobs. Is that right? Most Definitely a lot of people were laid off that wasn't able to to work.

And then we also see people um, you know, suffering from depression and turn into drugs. So there's a lot of reasons for um this COVID nineteen uh rise with violence as well, and it's very sad to see. But I think it's not impossible to be and it has to be not through more policing, but how can we

invest in other alternatives that keep people safe. But if we take into account the fact that when COVID nineteen happened, the unemployment rate did go up, of course, but there was a lot of government programs in which people were in the bottom rung actually ended up making more money from unemployment programs than they did in their normal day

to day jobs. So could that really be the reason for the rise and violent crime or right after we saw like when you think about the rioting and a looting under behind George Floyd, that wasn't because of COVID nineteen, people were rioting and looting. People in the Black Lives Niner movement in Chicago specifically said that it was reparations for black people going into black neighborhoods, uh, smashing those

stories and stealing things out of that. Is that really the reason COVID nineteen is really the reason why a lot of these crimes took place. I think that COVID nineteen was a reason why a lot of crimes in general. When I say COVID nineteen, I don't mean like COVID nineteen the exact virus is the reason why. But the conditions and the hardships that COVID nineteen um calls for a lot of our communities can be contributed to a lot of the rising crimes. Chief so most a major

cities right now. Gianno, as you said, spike in a take of crime. But I think to kind of address with Elie saying about the defunding and putting money into recreation, I don't necessarily agree with the way you're talking about it, but I do agree that there instead of defunding, I would like to see reallocations some some kind of way of some of the funding in that rather than trying to put a civilian in the police officers capacity um

to put them in harm's way. You know, I'd like to maybe see UH funding for some mental health counselors that are sworn so they can carry a dual road. You know, you have a police officer that's specifically trained in mental health that could respond to some of these calls.

I speak with sheriffs from across the country on a regular basis who share with me that the majority of their population are mental health patients and doing a Reagan administration, and Jean, I know you may remember that most of those major health mental health facilities were shut down and so now there's no real place to put them so to speak, to seek any treatment, and now they're being wide were housed in UH jails across this country. So I don't want to see any money taken away, but

I'd like to see money maybe added or reallocate it. Okay, So, as we talked about the recreation issues with the young folks, UM, a lot of major cities have police athletic leagues where young kids are able to participate in organize in amurial sports and it's kind of led by that police agency. I think that's a plus plus because a lot of kids, the images that they have law enforcement is a negative image and most of it comes from TV and the other comes from the crazy things that they see UH

officers do. But you know, I know, when I ran a school resource program, some of the greatest UH interactions with the young people came came from my school resource officers because they were in the schools having those interactions with those young folks, and they were providing counseling, so to speak, not formal counseling, but the relationships and the dialogues that they created also created something that carried on.

I can remember several occasions where I had an interaction with a young person and later on it meant something to them. And to this day, I have young folks to come up to me all the time, Hey, Chief, I'm doing this, I'm doing it, you know, proud that they've got a job, or proud that they got in some college. You know that they didn't think they could get into UM. So I think we could do both. I think we can UM reallocate some funding and put

it in the right place. And and the only way we're gonna do this again is we've got to have a commission. And and the only mission or possibility of a commission on law enforcement of public safety right now that's being offered is this George Floord UH law that they're trying to pass UH right now that nobody is really moving on. And I think guys is that we talk about removing funding most caught, uh, I mean most

agencies or so screwstrap right now. They don't have the funding to form the duties that they are prescribed to do right now. So until we you know, this country has way too many police departments as it is, but until we can get it all under one umbrella, so to speak, and get the same standards across the board, same type policies, those kind of things, I'll keep preaching that, Uh,

we're gonna have these issues. So consistency and uniformity is what you're saying across the board nationally, is what's necessities in order to improve policing in the country. Before we move on, let's take a quick break back in the second Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation received about ninety million dollars in corporate donations last year from various corporations. After the death of George Floyd, there's been a number

of chapters. Michael Brown Senior, for example, requested twenty million dollars from the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, which I don't believe they've received. There's been people like Samir Rights, Tamer Rights's mother who, of course her son died I think he was ten or eleven years old. He was shot by a police officer. He had a toy gun on a playground and they just pulled up and shot him.

There's been a number of other people who have criticized people like to Tamika Maori um and others for using black deaths to advance uh their profit structure, if you will. And these are things that are people have stated in reporting and on social media. There's been a lot of folks who who said that the organization, the head of the organization, has disenfranchised a lot of the local chapters.

You run a local chapter, have you seen any money from the from the foundation, from the head of your your group, right, Um, so I'm part of the Black Lives Better on Patterson and UM, I would say maybe a couple of months ago, UM, a group of Black Lives Matter chapters called Black Lives Matter ten had released a statement UM initially talking about some of these issues. Once they found out that uh, like ninety million dollars

was nine I forgot how much money it was. It was nine email a lot of months and it cost a lot of problems because ever since the George Floyd,

even before George Floyd. Many chapters were trying to get more transparency and accountability UM from Black Lives Matter Global, right UM, And there's a lot of issues around that and all a lot of the chapters really wanted with some type of accountability and some type of support that a lot of chapters we're doing fantastic sick work in their communities, but they knew that they could do even more if they had financial support from Black Lives Matter Global.

So a lot of people were very upset that UM the Global Network was sitting on this much money and wasn't distributing it to UM the chapters so that they can support the communities. UM I personally stand in solidarity with Tamar and mother's Rice and Mike Brown Senior and all the other families that UM I feel slided by UM black Lives Matter Global. I really do think that Black Lives Matter Global Network needs to really address these concerns.

It really needs to address these grievances to really support these families, families that they say they are supporting, Because when you're saying you're fighting for Black Lives Matter, it's just not about fighting for the people whom were killed by police. But it's also about fighting for the Black lives that are still here. Need to be able to be supporting UM these black families that are still grieving. You need to be also supporting to the best billy

Black communities nationwide and supporting your your local chapters. So I hope that with all this criticism that the Black Lives Matter Global will turn a new leaf and you know, UM change some of their processes or support UM these families that have been asking for monetary support. Now we know some of the Black Lives Matter co founders have described themselves as trained Marxists. As the Black Lives Matter

movement of trained, is it a Marxist movement? I want to say that the Black Lives Matter movement is um a Marxist movement at all. I would definitely say that there's many people within Black Lives Matter UM the movement who are potentially Marxist. And it's also people who are you know, just just have no label for themselves. They just want to see, you know, a change in America. UM. I personally don't think that you know, Marxism is necessarily

like a negative word. It's just UM, a person who had a strong critique of capitalism and really made a lot of people understand what capitalism was, and that is a hierarchy. It's it's like an upside down try and go. There's people on the top, and many of us are going to be on the bottom. And for many of us, being on the bottom is mostly black and brown people.

So for a lot of Marxists it means that we don't want to live in a society where, um, there's only one option or two options, either stay in the bottom or go to the top, and meaning that there's not allow of room on the top in the first place, and there'll never be a lot of room at the top. Just like as you as you're a kid, you all we all had our dreams of being in the NBA or NFL, and our teachers had to tell us, like, yo, there's not a chance you're gonna be in the NFL

and the NBA, no matter how good you are. There's only a certain amount of people who are ever making into the NBA. And that's unfortunately how it is when it comes to being rich or wealthy. We all like to think that we could all have the chance to be billionaires and millionaires, but the actuality it's not and we need to be able to change that system so that everyone has access to the same resorts and has

the ability to live for fruitful life. So talking about Marxism, the Black Lives Matter organization deleted to pay saying disrupting the Western prescribed nuclear family structure is one of its core principles. Now we're talking about Black Lives Matter here. We know that about seventy percent of Black babies are born out of wedlock, and the collapse of the black family has this devested our community. So how is destroying the black family is supposed to have black help black people.

I think it's mostly about when we talk about white supremacy, it's the whole idea that the nuclear family is the type of household that should be m adhere to and anything else is like demonized, right, And that is something that you know, I don't necessarily agree with, you know. And when I say that is when we look back in our own history, whether it's pre you know, child slavery, we live in mostly extended families. It was nothing wrong with having an extended family, but now for some reason

it's like frowned upon. And I think that we talk about that is about um not always saying that having a nuclear family is the goal, but being able to say, like, all right, we welcome all types of families. You know, as long as a strong family and a strong, healthy family, then it shouldn't be to not we need to be able to have strong families. If it is a new great you know, if it's extended family, live with grandma live,

you know, great grandma. Great. That's not the stated purpose of Marxism though, like that, I feel as though the Black Lives Matter movement is uh, there's a difference between the movement and the organization certainly, And we see what's going on in the organization. You just mentioned it yourself. How they're collecting all these millions of dollars, they're not necessarily distributing to the trapters, which you all are saying

that you do really good work. It should be conversations with law enforcement daily, talking about policy initiatives, et cetera. We're not necessarily seeing that they're keeping the money seemingly for themselves and maybe selectively poor it into different organizations.

So this is something that obviously needs to change with you guys, And how could you be associated with global organization like that, It's not necessarily caring about black lives, if you will, because they're not pouring in the money that they're they've collectively received from corporations to enhance the lives of black people. Black folks aren't seeing that money. I agree, like black people aren't seeing those those funds.

Chapters aren't seeing those funds. But it's going to be up to myself and other leaders of various chapters to hold on the leadership account to make sure that from now on, individuals and communities need to be supported with any money that is being distributed to global network. And that's part of the fight. And unfortunately sometimes you have to fight internally as well, and that doesn't necessarily have

to always be a negative thing. Okay, And my my last question to you on this front, do you believe the members of the Democratic Party and white liberals specifically are trying to co opt your movement for their own purposes political and otherwise. Oh, of course I definitely do

agree that. You know, um, there's always been instances where democratics, you know, Democratic Party or Democratic leadership wants to co opt, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement because it is a popular movement and it has a base of black people. So to align themselves they think that they can, you know, allign themselves with black voters as well. Um, And I frowned upon that, and I don't agree with that. I don't think that we should align ourselves with the Democratic

Party at all. That we should be independent, that we should you know, fight for what we fight for. If the Democratic Party agrees with what we're doing, then great. The Republican Party agrees with some of the things that we're doing, great, whoever agrees with what we're doing and work wants to work for our same goals, that's good. But we shouldn't allign ourselves with the Democratic Party or any party um to take advantage of us or just use us for for votes and not give us things

that we need. So, in other words, black lives no matter the Democrats, black votes do definitely all right. So if I can get you just your final thoughts, will race relations get worse and better over the next few years? Chief Cox? What are your what are your thoughts? Well, I'm prayerful and hopeful that they will get better in the next uh several years. And it's all kind of

depending on the way President Biden leaves this country. Um, we lost a lot of ground in my mind with the last administration and a lot of the rhetoric that came out of the White House. And I think that now is an opportunity in the next four years, hopefully and actually the next two years, because we know we don't have no idea what's gonna happen in the midterm elections. Um, that we're leading the right way and people learn to love each other again. I mean, it's it's simple for me.

I think right now our biggest issue is we don't communicate effectively and we're relying on guns to do our communicating for us, and there's no real push to you know, I guess do something about the guns on the streets. So you know, we've got a long road ahead of us. And I'm certainly for a gun ownership. I'm just for a responsible gun own the ship. And right now I'm seeing way too many homicides and way too many black

on black killings and communities across this country. And uh, until we can kind of rope that up wrote that in Um, I just I'm just prayerful every day and every night that we learned to love each other again and respect each other again, because there's a lot of

lack of respect. And over the past four years, I think I've encountered some conversations with my brother's on of another race that I probably wouldn't have done before because I thinks sometimes people have become more emboldened and decided that they would, you know, make challenges that they would not have normally made. You know. So, yes, all right, Zelie, Yeah, I definitely agree with um Clarence. UM. I do think that we may have some rough spots for a while

before we get to like a broader tomorrow. UM. I do have hope, especially with the youth. UM. They've been watching, they've been learning, they've seen what was wrong, and they have ideas of how to make things going forward. I'm also hopeful because with this conversation with Clarence kind of shows like maybe like five or ten years ago, UM, a lot of police departments wouldn't have been open to the idea of you know, allocating money tours, um um,

other initiatives to keep communities safe. But now it's like, you know, there's other initiatives to keep community safe, then it's a no brainer now for us to fund so by continue to have these conversations and continue to have these rough conversations you need if you disagree, is key to moving forward. And I'm hopeful because all of us want to be loved, all of us wants to be accepted,

all of us want to um live free. It's all a matter of how do we come together and create the system, create this world where that could be possible. I want to thank Zeliamani and Clarence Cox the Third again for a great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review. Will you rate us with five stars on Apple Podcast. If you have any questions for me, please email me at out lout the Ginglish Street sixty and I'll try to answer them in our

future episodes. And please sign up for my monthly newsletter at Ginglige three sixt dot com slash out Loud. You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and parlor at Giano called Blow. If you're interested in learning more about my story, please pick up a copy of my bestselling book title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win

Back the American City Liberalism Failed. Special Thanks to our producer John Cassio, We says You're Aaron Klingman and executive producers Debbie Myers and speaker New Gingridge, all part of the Ginglish to the sixty network