Up next out loud would Janno called part of the English high folks as Jianno Calledwell, here's the second half of my fund and encycl interview with legendary defense attorney and constitutional scholar and longtime Harvard Law School professor Alan Derschomitz. I ask you about the efforts about a Democrats to impeach President Trump. I know, it seems like something that
happened many years ago, not in my life. And my life people still don't talk to me because I defended the president on the floor of the Senate, and so some of my oldest and dearest friends have severed their relationship with me because they thought I was a sellout and a trader. They don't understand the role of the lawyer. I was there defending the Constitution. The Constitution was misused
by the Democrats. President Trump was impeached unconstitutionally on grounds not set out in the Constitution, and asked the argument I made. I'm proud of that argument, and I now know who my true friends are. Okay, now that's good. And as a person who's a conservative and been a conservative for over a decade, I've been written a book about it. Taken for granted. Uh to as someone who's in the black community kind of rejected because of my
politics and even just a professional position. So I appreciate you know what that's like. We're in the same boat. We definitely we are. In nineteen I think it was the nineteen sixties, you hosted a talk at Harvard by Malcolm Max on the subject of black liberation. Can you tell us that story and how, in your view, rights for Black Americans have both advanced installed since then. It
was an amazing event. I was like a month into being the youngest assistant professor in the history of Harvard Law School, and I got a call from the Harvard Law School Forum saying, we've invited Malcolm X to speak, but no faculty member will introduce him, and the rules of the asociation require that they'd be a faculty member introducing the speaker, otherwise the speaker is not allowed to speak. I said, of course, I'll do it. Freedom of speech.
And so I did get to introduce and have dinner with Malcolm X. He had just come back in the Middle East, so part of the dinner was spent talking about the Israeli Arab conflict and other issues. Malcolm X again perfectly perfect example of a mixed picture, somebody who certainly raised consciousness about inequality in the black community, certainly gave a lot of pride to African Americans back in his day. But he was not perfect. His life started
as a criminal. He did advocate the violence. He died violently. We still don't know exactly the circumstances of his death, but we do know that Louis Barakont played some role in it, and that Elijah Mohammed and others in the Black Muzzle movement played some role in it. Mixed picture. If you start taking down statues of people who have mixed records, you're gonna have to change the name of Malcolm X bolva Art in Harlem, because he does have
a mixed record. But I think we have to understand that most great leaders are at least many great leaders do. The situation of African Americans in America has so dramatically
changed in the last fifty years. I went down South, and he was between my last year of law school work twice last year of law school in my clerkship, and in my second year of law school, I trained to go down South at Howard University by the n A c P. And I went down there and saw the horrors that were going on in parts of the South with African Americans being beaten if they wanted to
vote or wanted to sit in integrated encounters. My wife's father owned a pharmacy in Charleston, South Carolina, and when his best friends was an African American doctor and he was not allowed to sit at the lunch counter with his best friend in his own pharmacy, he had to take Dr Chisholm up to his office where he could have lunch with him privately. That's how terrible the situation was back then. It is so much better today, but it's not close to being good enough. You know, it's
a work in progress. But let nobody think that we haven't made progress with various civil rights acts and voting rights accent. The fact that we have had a black president now have a Black Lives presidential candidate is not alone enough to say there's been a change, but it's certainly a manifestation. My Sheldon's generation don't even recognize race
as a salient characteristic. They just picked people, as Martin Luther King said in his famous speech, not based on the color of their skin, but the quality of their character. I think we're moving in that direction, but we're not even close to being there. You know what. What's interesting and if I can take you to my kitchen table
for a moment. Growing up in in Chicago, on the South Side of Chicago, internally with not just my family, but the entire Black community, I would say we often admire the Jewish community in the sect success that we
often see within. So there's this this old saying that you find a lot of wealth in the Jewish community, and people have been, like jay Z, have made comments about the wealth and the Jewish community as he tried to say a complimentary what do you think African Americans need to do in order to to ascend to that level? There's so much success within your community, is it we
need to be more cohesive as a community. What should we be doing to uh to rise to that level of success that we often see in the Jewish community. It's so hard to make those kinds of judgments. Look, the Jewish community was extraordinarily jealous of the African American community. I mean all of our many of our heroes, sports heroes, music heroes, you name it Martin Luther King, Barack Omama
came from the black community. So you know, I would rather instead of calling it mutual jealousy, call it mutual admiration. We each can learn a lot from each other. Different communities at different stages in their history react in different ways. And you know, Jews had to accumulate wealth back in the Europe. They were not allowed to own land. They only could make money by lending money because that's not prohibited in Jewish law, and so Jews became bankers and lenders,
and that's a tradition that has kept up. Also, I think Jewish education. That is, my parents were not educated. Neither than went to college. My father did graduated high school. I was the first person in my family could have got to college. My parents lived for me to go to college. They would have done anything. Fortunately I lived in Brooklyn where there was a free college Brooklyn Call College,
and a diverse and free college and excellent school. I would love to see a return to free public education in every state, at least one school that's excellent and it's free to give opportunities. I think family education, all of those things contribute to the success of a community. But we are different communities and we have different values, and we shouldn't try to impose one model on any
other community. I can agree with that assessment. I just think that within the black community is important to dig within and really pull out the potential that exists, because I think there's a lot of self doubt that's often placed on a community because some of the issues that we've seen um comes throughout that country, from slavery, from Jim Crow, from any a number of these other issues, that people just believe that ascending to a particular level
isn't possible, and I think that's detrimental to the community that professor. I want to follow up with you on that, but first we have to take a commercial break. Will be right back the switching gears. Following the death of George Floyd in the ratio and civil unrest that we've seen in erupted cities across the country, how should law enforcement change how they operate? Well, first of all, we shouldn't be defunding the police. We should be increasing the
funding of police. Who remember who policemen are, They're working class people. There are people who get up every morning and have one goal, and that is to protect you and me and to come home and be safe with this family. And they're undefunded, they're underpaid, they're undertrained. We don't have enough money for non lethal weapons. Every police officer should have a non lethal weapon so that when somebody is coming at them with a knife, they don't
have to shoot them in the heart. They can fire the non lethal weapon. Joe Biden said they should shoot them in the legs. That sounds a little bit more like cowboy movie stuff. But the use of not legal weapons, the use of better training, more community control police. But I'm in favor of increasing the funding of police rather than defunding the police. Defunding the police has become a slow agan AOC advocates it, and she's just dead wrong.
The major victims of defunding the police would be her community and the community of people who are vulnerable and who aren't protected enough. We need more police and more well trained police in communities that have currently have high crime rates in order to bring the came rates down. And so there's a lot we can do. There's been a lot of miscarriages of justice by policemen shooting unarmed
African Americans, some more than others. The Taylor case does not strike me as a case which appropriately calls for the level of protests that we've had. That was a tragic, horrible situation. Nobody should have ever fired a shot there. But the first shot was fired by Brianna Taylor's boyfriends at a police officer hit him in the thigh, closed profuse bleeding. He could have died, and police are trained and would be trained even today to shoot back at
the source of fire. It was a horrible tragedy. But I think the prosecutor in that case, an African American prosecutor, came to the right conclusion and did not charge those police officers with murder. He did charge one police officer with reckless disregard for life by firing kind of aimlessly through a window. That might very well if it's people in the joining apartment. But it's a nuanced case. It's a case that it doesn't fit into the Floyd case,
where that was a murder. That was just a murderer. I mean, the idea that you would put your knee on the neck of somebody who was already under control and keep it there for all that time. There's just no conceivable justification for that, but not all cases are the same, not all policemen are the same, and so we have to look at every case individually with the presumption of innocence. Even police have a presumption of innocence. Yeah, I agree with that in Daniel him and the Attorney
General of Kentucky. I I've seen a lot of legal analysis, and of course you're the genius here with any and all things legal, professor, But it seems as though a lot of people came to the same conclusion that he made the right decision. But that doesn't that hasn't stopped all the hate that he's received from numerous members of the black community. So that's and the white community and the white community I have friends you have just despised him, uh,
saying that you know, he's an uncle Tom. It was a cover up. They purposely gave it to a black prosecutor so that it would have You know, you hear all of that. You hear it from people of color, you hear it from white people, and again you hear diverse views from people in every community. And that's what we need to encourage. People should make up their minds based on the fact and your identity, whether it be black or white, or gay or straight, Jewish or Christian
or mausoleum. That shouldn't be the determining factor on how you analyze the fact of the case. I agree. And the district attorney who the case initially went through was a white Democrat, So that's interesting that they've not put all that fire his particular door, So that that's really interesting. Next question for you, and I know you gotta go, so we're gonna wrappy it really soon. How do you assess the threat posed by Antifa and how should local,
state and federal law enforcement respond. Well, you know, there's an interesting article today in um Anaeli newspaper. I think it's Arts or or the juicelim Posts, I can't remember. I read it this morning about the man who wrote the book on Antifa, and he's a Rutgers professor and he justifies violence. He says you need to use violence, and you know the idea, and I've heard it from the Vice President I'm sorry, Vice President Biden and others.
Antifa is not an organization. It's a content nonsense. It's like Black Lives Matter. It is an organization that has many sub organization sans within it. It's a concept, yes, anti fashionist concept. Black lives matter is a concept. But I know because I have been attacked by antifa in places like Berkeley and other places. They don't want to hear me speak because of my centrist, liberal pro Israel views and my defense of against the imputure of the
President Trump. So it's not just that they try to stop fascists. They define fascist as anybody except them, and by their definition, I'm a fascist by their definition, euro fascist. By their definition, Shapiro is a fascist, and other conservatives are fascists. So I have nothing but contempt for Antifa. If we did have listening of domestic groups as terrorist groups, I think Antifa would qualify as a terrorist organization. And it can't hide by the fact that it doesn't have
an elected president, vice president and board of directors. And any given community, you know who the ANTIQUA members are. You know that they get called out, You know that they're coherent, and they stick together and they join in mobs and riots, and again their goals. Sure, who wants fascism,
but their means is what's so so a questionable. So with Black Lives Matter, do you come to a similar conclusion and I know that there's a difference between the movement of people who are like my friends, who go with the slogan black Lives Matter, and they they use the hashtag. But then there's an organization which is getting all this funding, no one knows where the money is going going to. And then of course the founders, at
least one of them is a train. Mark says, there's there's a lot going on there that people don't really understand. I agree completely. Look, I support the concept black lives matter. I have for the last fifty or sixty years. I devoted a lot of my life to bringing about equality
based on a race. But I cannot support any organization that has in its platform singling out of one country, just one country, the nation state of the Jewish people, Israel, calling it genocidal, calling it apartheid, not a single mention of the Philippines where policemen gunned down innocent people on the street, Venezuela, you'an where gay people hanged, nothing about any other country in the world, just the nation state
of the Jewish people. And when you single at the nation state of the Jewish people and call a genocidal, when it's tried to defend itself and killed fewer Palestinians in seventy five years then the Jordanians did in the very short period of time called Black September. You know that you're crossing the line to anti Semitism. So I cannot support the organization that has as its platform ending age Israel because it's a genocidal apartheid state singling out
only Israel. So that's where I stand in Black Lives Matter, support the concept, support the idea, opposed the organization that has that in its platform. I wrote back two years, four years ago, urging them to change the platform. Apparently they consider changing it, but I haven't heard any results that would indicate that they did change it. I want to thank you so much for your time, because you're pleasure. You're a great host, and you're a great questions Thank you.
Thank you so much for that, and I want to switch gears. But first here's a word from our sponsors. Now on the issue of the election, as you mentioned, we don't know what direction is gonna go. The post say this, the enthusiasm is on Trump side, et cetera. Then we have all these mail in ballots. As an example, in the state of Pennsylvania as an example. In two sixteen they got about eighty thousand absentee votes, and this year during the primary they got one point five million
mail in ballots back in. So we know that in numerous states is gonna be a mail in election all across the country which may change the outcome of the election. If you look at some people's home, some folks a seat over a dozen ballots, which I assume the voter fraud can actually happen. I think any reasonable person can come to that assessment. Who knows if there's enough enough to change the course of an election? What do you think happens the day after the election? Do we know
who the president is? Does it go to the courts? Did voter fraud have a really big impact? And if it does, what do we go from there? Well, all of the above. If it's a close election, it will go to the courts. I think a lot of people, whether their Democratic Republican, are hoping that the election will be decided by people who go to the polls and that you won't even need to count the mail in ballots. But probably that won't happen, at least in some contested states.
The outcome may very well be determined by ballots that are written in. The question is what's worse having a little bit of fraud or having a lot of voters disenfranchised because of the COVID threat. I, for example, I've always voted my whole life in person. I love voting, I love pleading five to six years old. This year, I'm not. I'm going to vote by mail. This year,
I'm eighty two years old. I'm vulnerable. I've been, you know, living relatively in isolation, and for the first time since I voted for John Kennedy, I'm voting by by mail. But I'm very careful how I'm going to vote by mail. I'm gonna make sure it's done right, not prodinently. And I think I argued a few months ago that Congression set up a bipartisan commission to assess the voting, a fair bipartisan so it doesn't have to go to the courts. But I suspect we'll see a lot of activity in
the courts. And here is the the one scenario that scares a lot of people. But in the case goes to the courts and it becomes like Bush versus Gore ultimately gets to the Supreme Court, and the vote is five to four, with the deciding vote for President Trump being cast by the woman he nominated to the Supreme
Court just a month before the election. Will the American public accept that the way they accepted Bush versus Gore to though that was on partisan grounds, but would they accept the five to four vote with the deciding vote being cast by the President's nominee. I hope they would accept it, but I think there would be some questions.
We I guarantee you ANTIFA would not accept it. I guarantee you AOC would not accept it, and I guarantee there are people on the hard left who would never accept it, and probably the same being is true in the hard right. If the shore on the other well, I mean in the election, one can argue that they still not accepted it. And I know I said that was my last question, but really promised this is the last one. Do you con I'm promise you I'll be done.
Do you think do you think COVID nineteen was really sent by way of China? Well, I think the Chinese could have done a lot more to have prevented it and let the world know what had happened in one, But that doesn't mean that it's the fault of the Chinese people. Certainly not. I would not call it the Chinese virus, but you know, we had aimed other viruses after countries. Look, you go back in history the Black
plague that was not named after black people. The Black plague was blamed on the Jews that many ministers preached from the pulpit that it was the sins of the Jews and not accepting Jesus that caused God to bring about the Black plague. So we shouldn't use plagues to make racial or ethnic or discriminatory statements. We should devote all of our attention to fighting the virus and hope
that there is a vaccine. I grew up in the age of polio, and our heroes were the two people saving and Sauk who invented, who was discovered the vaccine that stopped the score j of polio. I hope that we will have the same and we will be able to celebrate great scientists who put an end to this COVID nineteen. That's my hope for the year two thousand twenty one. Well, Professor Dersheritz, I want to thank you so so much for given us that out loud what
Giano called Wall York Time. I mean, you've en lightened everyone. I can tell you that, and I personally look forward to purchasing your book, Cancel Culture, the latest attack on from speech and do process, and I hope every one of my listeners will do so as well. Thank you for going to appreciate that. There's there's one other book I hope people will look at. You can get it
free on Kindle. It's called Guilt Play Accusation, and it's the book that proves that I never even met the woman who falsely accused me, and it's an attack on her and her lawyers for concocting this case against me. And you know I wrote it not only for myself but for everyone who has been falsely accused. So you can get that free untended Fuel Play Accusation. So thanks for mentioning my books. That absolutely and you take the royalties out so you can ensure people can get it free. Okay,
I get no royalties to that. Thanks a lot, and all of your books will be on my web page. So thank you again, professor, And uh yeah, that would be nice. But keep doing good things. This is a great. This is a great podcast. I really enjoyed being thanks. I think we're gonna make a commercial out of that, so hopefully that's free of charge. Right Hey, wait a minute, you're gonna make your commercial out of me praising your podcast.
I also have a podcast now. It's called The Dirt Show, like the name D E R S h O W. You can get it on Spotify and YouTube and all the arrest of the places. I don't have as many listeners as you do, but we're beginning. Were just beginning. Well. I look forward to checking out your podcast as well. Again, guys, please get the Professor's books. I mean, it was the honor of a light time to be with you. This is Out Loud with Gianno Calls Us. Thanks again to
Professor Alan Dershowitz for an incredible two part interviews. Tune in next week from our interview with veteran and Foxing Friends Weekend host Pete Hetseth. You don't want to miss it. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review and rate us with five stars. Apple Podcast. Thank you to our producer Stephen Callabria, researcher Aaron Kleigman, and executive producers Debbie Myers and speaker New Gingrich part of the Gingridge three sixty network, part of the Gainer's three sixty New