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Find us wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Okay, so I know you're feeling like you need to be cozy today, but tell me how the last week has been for you. It's been... a bit hard um with the homework assignment I guess I really didn't want to look through my grandma's eyes at me so I found myself crying or like tears would come up kind of as um
Like a defense mechanism, I think. Okay. Because obviously my grandma doesn't know the big things that have happened in my life that bring on the shame and the other stuff. So then I guess... That sort of got me thinking if I had been able to share that with her, would that have changed anything? Hi, I'm Hillary McBride, and this is Other People's Problems. This is a real-life therapy session between myself and a client we're calling Hannah.
In this session with Hannah, you hear us start off by reviewing some of the homework that it gave her after our last session, an experiment, something to try to see what would come up for her. Hannah's grandma was a really important person in her life. Someone who is stable, who is secure, in spite of all of the different people who are coming in and out of her home and her life and the characters and the family members and all of their own unique needs and mental health struggles.
Her grandma seemed to be someone who had a kind of enduring and stable love. She was secure for Hannah. This session is really about her defenses. The range of ways that she's tried to prove that she's lovable, to try to prevent herself from being abandoned by someone that she loves, and to protect herself from getting hurt.
But underneath it all, what I'm trying to help her do is see that maybe she doesn't need to work so hard to be okay. Maybe she doesn't need to work so hard to know that she's loved.
I seem to like I've let all the bad things in so quickly but it seems to be harder to let the good things in so quickly or at all like when you ask me to say good things about myself or think good things about myself like I wonder if I'm really really taking it in yeah so is it really going in am I just pretending yeah because sometimes like I think I even pretend to myself just because I want it to happen so badly uh-huh
It sounds really clear. You've used the word a few times now, this wanting, really wanting, wanting to feel different, wanting to feel better. That sounds true. That sounds like it's from you. There's a part in you that wants to feel differently so bad you do anything. Sometimes it's helpful because it... It gives me sort of like an idea that there is something in me that wants to make the day better. But then there's something like that scary bit that kind of holds me back because I'm scared.
What if I don't reach it? Like, what if I don't get to that point? Because I find that with writing a lot, like I don't try even so that it never has to be judged. And I can blame myself, which is easier to do, than to have someone else say it wasn't good enough. Yeah. I'm going to pause you here because I can see you're doing a really good job of locking down the emotion. But I actually want to know about those tears that you're holding back right now.
And if we had this magic wand and we could ask all those defenses to step aside the judgment about the tears, I really want to be with you while that's coming up. I want to know more about that. Sometimes I feel really invisible. I know of the fears about being invisible, but there's also been this. shield around the pain that you probably don't have it seen very often. There's so much inside of you that I know is
Oh gosh. Like the image I have in my mind is of like these jewels that get tucked away in someone's jewelry box and we get to pull them out together and I get real delight and I can feel it in my chest. It's like bubbles and fireworks. expanding energy. I like having these moments with you where I get to just see the parts of you that are often tucked away behind the defenses.
It actually makes me like you more. It makes me feel closer to you. Feels good. You look down and away from me. You can tell me how it actually feels. Like I know you're a genuine person, but it feels like because you're my therapist that you kind of have to feel that way. So our defenses came back.
to disqualify this. Interestingly, we also said, you know, I'm genuine. So I imagine there's a little bit of a conflict inside. One part is saying, she's probably not bullshitting me. But the other part is like, I can't do this. It's too hard or too scary. It feels like everyone leaves. Everyone leaves. Yeah, I see the pain in that. I'm so sorry that you've been left.
Just makes me feel disposable. Okay. Yeah, so there's something in here about goodbyes and being disconnected from this source of affection or connection where... Where it's like you were left. Like it was about you somehow. I feel like the common denominator. All of my shame. Alarm bells are going off when I'm hearing her say disposable, the common denominator. And shame in this means sometimes we call it the master emotion.
in the therapy world it has this way of taking over and turning all of this angst and hatred and loathing towards ourselves so in an i think My sense for her is that as she's trying to make sense of why she has been alone, what's caused that? to try to get some understanding and control about it, the shame has come in to answer that question and has said, you, you are the reason. And she's feeling the ache, the ache and the sorrow.
That somehow she's responsible for the pain that she's feeling. I try hard to like make things right. You've done your very, very, very best. You've worked harder than anyone could ever know to keep people around. And yet what a losing game when you could never be so powerful. You could never be good enough. You could never be wonderful enough to make people stick around who have their own stuff going on.
I'm so sorry that you've ever had that message given to you or that's ever somehow come along that if you were better, they would have stayed. Yeah, I guess that there's something too much about me. I don't know how to make friends for too long. You're going to have so many friends, but there's nobody that I could, I guess, be myself with because I'm too scared. Yeah. You've been so scared about people leaving.
that it sounds like you haven't actually had lots of experiences where you've been able to relax enough into being yourself. And, and also, I mean, we have this other thing that we're kind of dealing with in between us right now, which is even when you do get affection. It's so hard to take it in. It's unbelievable. Yeah. This pattern that plays out in other relationships is playing out here too. The fear, if I take in the affection, well, I'm scared because you're going to leave then.
But I just want you to check in with what's happening inside. Okay. What are you noticing in there? I guess for once, like I sort of have this opening. It looks like I'm sort of scrunching in, but also it feels that I can breathe better. Because I've said the things that have been scariest.
yeah, you're really letting me in. I mean, you were just telling me that it's hard for you to be yourself with other people. And I'm just getting the sense as I listen to you that you are really letting me see yourself. and isn't that so interesting that here you are doing that and you're feeling some space open up some peace it's kind of cool hey yeah yeah
And maybe it's really hard to take in my affection. I get that. That's not the kind of thing that we fix overnight. But I wonder if you can be aware that we're together right now. But somehow this opening didn't happen alone. It happened because you let me see the things that are inside of you. It feels good because I've gotten it out, I've said it.
So it doesn't seem like it's turning in my mind for now. But it's also scary because I don't know what's going to happen after I leave you for today. Yeah, so there's that fear again. We get close and then it feels really scary to think about being apart. You're so worried about us saying goodbye and after and being left that you're missing that we're right here together right now. It reminds me, this is my favorite analogy to think about whenever this kind of thing comes up in therapy.
It's the same thing as if we were eating a delicious dessert and we realized that there was no other slices of the pie left. And so we just stopped eating because we're like, well, I just can't eat this because there's going to be no more later. What? It doesn't make any sense. Whereas like you'd think if there was no more slices of the pie left, you'd be like, I'm going to savor this. I'm going to remember it forever.
photo i'm gonna tell everyone i know i'm gonna like really let it sink in yeah yeah so you know how in other areas of your life Like when something is precious, when something is important, when you want it, be with it. Take it in. Remember that feeling, that space that you had in your chest. I want for you to imagine that that space, it was like clearing out some old junk. And I want for you to imagine the connection is this cord or thread.
And I want for you to imagine that that cord could plug right into that space in your chest. And I'm going to be doing the same. I've got my cord here. Plug it into this space. Thank you for doing that with me. Dork out on my own. Okay. So let's see through the magic of, you know.
the internet we can imagine this cord going between us all the way through space and time plugging into each of our chests see what comes through the cord into you um like these sort of spirals and they're kind of like like a bright pink I love that I'm Katie Boland. And I'm Emily Hampshire, who didn't want to be here. On our new podcast, The Whisper Network, we want to speak out loud about all the stuff that we usually just whisper about, like our bodies, our cycles.
Our sex lives. Basically everything I text to you, Katie. So this is like your intimate group chat with your friends. And we can't wait to bring you into the Whisper Network. This journey is a nightmare for me. I'm doing it for all of us, so you're welcome. feels kind of warm. Okay. So here's where we really get down to the nitty gritty and we're slowing down as the most important. I just want us to take a few moments here.
to actually see and feel that pink spirally and warm feeling. Just imagine that it's traveling out of my chest into your chest and then back into mine. We consider ourselves to be so cognitively oriented in our culture, both in control of ourselves through our thought life and in some ways tortured by our thought life, that we have forgotten there is so much more. to a self than just if we think about something.
And our ability to practice experiencing on an embodied and sensory level seems to be the place where the change actually not only starts to happen, but gets rooted into us in a different way. So it's not just enough for me to say, Hannah, I feel connected to you. Do you feel connected to me? Or do you even notice that we're connected? I want to give her attention, both her cognition and her sensory capacity.
As much reason to glom on to this moment so that her brain goes, oh, this can be a place I return to. This is a thing that's possible that actually feels good. And in doing that, I'm trying to bring in as many different channels of experience, these kind of visual ones, these temperature ones, all of the different ways that might thicken the experience and give it some more depth.
some more substance inside of her. It was like a glow, almost like, like you said, not completely filling you up, but just sort of warming in. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So keep, keep kind of one, one sense or one pulse or one eye on this connection and let your other. eye of your mind wander just to notice how the fear is about leaving. The fear is about what happens next. What's happening to the fear as you feel connected to me? Feeling like less.
less loud. Like I can still see it around here, but it's more like a little cloud rather than right on top because it's sort of like that if you feel one way of a connection. The connection to the fear sort of lets go. Yeah. And I hear that there's still some there, but it's less, which is important to note because sometimes we look for change to happen in all or nothing.
And we miss the degrees that change happens in. So this is a big deal that you could feel more connected and less fear. Yeah, it feels like this is an actual like... like an actual connection. Like I didn't actually put anything fake my way through it. Sometimes I want that connection so bad. I don't even see if this is a person I need to be connected with. Oh yeah.
And I just try to be like, oh, now we're best friends, but not actually. I would just say we're connected, but if you ask me how, I couldn't name one thing tangible that connects us. The motion you just did there was like this grasping, almost like you're working so hard to be close. that you're maybe not asking the question, is this a person who deserves my closeness or who's going to be around? And I can imagine that that's, that's part of the fears. Like you've done your.
really trying to connect with other people but if we're not thinking carefully about who we should do that with and people leave then then we start to create this narrative in our mind that there's a pattern every time I connect somebody leaves. Yeah. I just want to check in on something and you, sometimes it can feel like you want.
to please me. Or sometimes it feels like you want to do it right. You want me to be happy with you. Yeah. And I just want for you to know that I'm so okay with the truth of whatever is happening but i want to i want you to check in and ask like is there a part of what's happening right now that is you is you trying to make me happy trying to please me Not today. You said that like such a boss. Not today. Okay.
So how is that? How is it that we're connected and that's not actually what's going on here today? Like when I came into this meeting today, like I thought about all the inside, about me pleasing you. Sometimes I'm conscious of it and sometimes I'm not. I've noticed like if I'm not real with you, who's like the person who's like my safety net in some sense, like you're the one.
I have to least worry about feelings like you said, then how can I learn and be the person or want the life on my own? Like if I can't do this with you. So I came in today, say what I need to say today and see what happened. Previously, like there's almost like these big things that we needed to get through.
Cause like, obviously I'm this way because ABCD happened. I feel this too, the acknowledgement of the deepening of the process, right? We've, we've given a lot of attention to these big traumas and now we get to look at. the things that you carry inside that maybe feel a little less obvious at first, but are shaping how you connect to other people. Yeah.
Hannah has found a way to stay connected to people by figuring out who they want her to be and then being that. So I think it would have been very easy for me to not ask that question. And to assume that things were going really well with Hannah because, wow, she's doing all the homework and she's, you know, her symptoms are improving and we're jiving in our work together and it feels like a well choreographed dance.
But there's this thing in the back of my mind as the therapist, which it wants me to ask how even the seemingly compliant client is performing a relationship strategy to keep me close to stop me from being disappointed with them and I think at times it's a failure or maybe a neglect or just a not knowing on the part of the therapist to ask how is the pattern playing out in the room. But when we can start to ask those questions, how is what you're doing out there happening in here?
it actually becomes one of our most effective tools for change. Because I can't be with Hannah when she's out meeting a new friend or dating someone or trying to interact with someone in her family, but I can be with her right in the moment. And if we can catch a pattern as it's happening and do something different, I mean, that's where change happens. That's how healing happens.
You had said something right off the bat when we started today, just about, you know, I tried to do the homework, but before I could even get to it, it was this defense that came up. And today you... you and i really worked our way around the defenses to practice connection and here you are in this state where there's so much openness in your chest i am wondering what it would be like right now
To try to do what I asked you to do in the homework. To imagine seeing yourself through your grandmother's eyes. Know that your heart is open here. feel sort of like, this time there's like a cushioning. So when I hear her say those words, or like see, I guess see the words is more, like I don't hear her say them. I can just see them in her. It feels. Stay with that. It feels. Yeah. Like this time, like I feel her hands touching me. It's not just words coming out.
Ooh, this is a really special place for it to be then. Yeah. She has passed away. And you have this story that I get close to people and they leave. But I'm just aware that you're so connected to her right now that you can actually feel her with you. Yeah. Even though obviously I know, like scientifically I know, but like in your mind, you think it's your fault. And I think I put her dying as a bad thing. Like as a leaving thing. She never left. She never chose to leave.
And she's always been there, whether she had dementia, whether she was here in spirit, whether she could speak English or not, she's always been here. A bit of room for this. This is a big, a big insight for you. Really letting that land. She never left you. This is not about you. It's a good feeling, but it's also a strong feeling. I imagine it's quite intense. Because I want for us when we land here today.
For you to have the sense that you did so many brave things. And so your job, can I give you another little piece of homework today? Yes. Your job when we're done is to remember the togetherness. Because the fear loves to take us into things and say, we'll see that ended or it didn't mean anything. But what I want for you to do is revisit. We were so connected today and then it felt real, that pink, the spiraling, the swirling, the warmth, feeling your grandmother's touch.
Playing over in your mind those points of connection, reminding yourself that they were real. Okay. Yeah. breath beautiful work today i'm so proud of you thanks hillary you're welcome how'd we do did good what i'm trying to support her to do is understand that even when people do leave, that it's not necessarily about her.
There will be circumstances in all of our lives where relationships end or where we hurt people. And so they need to put some boundaries up to protect themselves from us. But there's also this disposition that Hannah has that I think many of us have, which is.
the kind of excessive responsibility taking that leads to and is the result of this inner shame dialogue. If there's some sort of disconnection ever, it's my fault. And what I'd really like... is for Hannah, for all of us to have enough internal stability that even if somebody dies, leaves, goes away, that we still know that we are lovable. Yes, we can take responsibility and reflect what our part in that was, if there was any part in it that we had. But wanting to not personalize.
so that we can feel the grief, feel the loss, feel the pain without adding to it by telling a story about ourselves. I'm Hillary McBride. Other People's Problems is produced and edited by Jodi Martinson. Mixed and music by Leigh Rosevear. Fabiola Carletti is our digital producer. Arif Noorani is the executive producer of CBC Podcasts. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.