Hello and welcome to another episode of Old Faces. I'm your host, Mr. Mocha and today back with me I have my main man, Drew Marston. If you don't know who Drew Marston is, he is the creator of the Spades magazine. He is the editor. He is the brains behind that publication. And today we're going to explore something that's new, but it's not new. Drew, welcome. Thank you, Sir. Thank you for having me back. I greatly appreciate being on.
So Drew Drew is a bisexual black bull within the lifestyle. Tell me how this came about and how this works. Yeah, so, well, the the bull part or the bipart? Well, we already talked about the the bull part. So how do you navigate the lifestyle being a bisexual black
male, black bull? Yeah. So just just really openly and honestly, it's really something that I've come out and then open and honest with, you know, the general public and not something that I try to hide over the last three years or so. And before that really kind of coming to terms with you know being bisexual and what that meant really happened after I was in the lifestyle and then there were occasions and and and play dates with couples where I
engaged in by play and and loved it and and had great times and all of that and around the pandemic started Pandemic. I really just started really reassessing, you know, lifestyle myself generally and not wanting to hide that particularly in the lifestyle any longer. And so I have to come out and own it on my truth. So is this something? So you've been the lifestyle for what, 15 years was it?
16 years. 16 years. So were you bisexual when you got into the lifestyle, or did that happen when you got after you were in? So yeah, I looking back on it, I've always been bisexual, acknowledging it was something completely different. And that was primarily because of, you know, the religious background that I had and also to I had some family members who were, you know, gay, bisexual, that were disowned because of their sexual orientation.
And so admitting that to myself wasn't really an option for me because I felt like I would lose family and and the community that I had grown up in. And as I got older, other things drove me away from that community, that religious community, but also there were wedges and driving apart from family. So I really didn't have that necessarily. I didn't care about that as much anymore. So when I got into the lifestyle, I never really had. I never done by play or anything
of the sort. So As for just the backdrop of that happening, like there was stuff with the family and and leaving religion and all of that, I began to experiment more with by play with couples that I was playing with. It was like, well, you know, I'm, I'm already so far out of the norm of, you know, my upbringing and you know, the communities that I've been a part of.
I was so out far of the the sexual mainstream or norm of those of what I've been brought up in that why not try, you know, some of these desires that I had had And so when I got in the lifestyles where I really start to experiment and have my first buy experiences. OK.
Now how has that affected how's that affected your ability to like is that is that a thing that you meet couples Let's say you meet a couple and you say OK this is my interest like with your because one of the things that I've found in my experience that you know if I meet a couple and I'm playing with a couple I do appreciate if you know the husband is bisexual that he lets me know I, I, I mean at the end of the day if if he doesn't let
me know as long as he doesn't do anything that's outside of my my comfort zone. I don't have an issue with it. But I find that I am more comfortable when a husband says, hey, these are my interest. So when you go into a situation with a couple, do you say that up front? Yes, yes, I always, you know, a part of a little introduction especially if I'm initiating contact contact with that
couple. You know, I let them know, hey, I'm a buy Black Bull, you know, with such and such experience in the lifestyle, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I noticed that I thought would make us a good fit. There'll be a good connection there. But yeah, I always mention being bi, so that way people know and they understand and it's not something that they feel like they get blindsided with. So when after I started having by play in the lifestyle, it was
something that I didn't mention. I didn't put it on any profiles or anything like that, just because there were a lot of profiles that you come across in which the couples go no guy on guy play, no by play, stuff like that. And so I pretty much did it as a defensive mechanism really to protect myself. So that way I wouldn't I I wouldn't be rejected by couples that I wanted to play with.
So you said you didn't put that you were bisexual because you didn't want to be rejected by the couples who were not into by play. Exactly, Exactly. And as I became more comfortable with myself and not wanting to hide that, I just. I put it on all of my all of my pages, all of my profiles, you know, everything that I have. And what I've found is what happens is that a lot of times I'll get reached out to you by couples that have that on their
page. No guy contact, no guy on guy contact because I'm listed as by all and they wanted to experience that or they wanted to play in that way themselves, which is an interesting dynamic. Wait, so you're saying that couples who openly say no by play will will reach out to you? Yep. Yep, that's happened to me a lot of times. I. Became open with, with, being with, being by and open about
that. So is that because Is that one of those situations where you you have a a husband who's trying to who's so concerned that people think that he he he by that he's saying oh oh nobody play, nobody play but that's what he really wants or yeah I. I. No, no, go ahead you that that's my my curiosity on that. One yeah, So what I what I think is that it's a it. It's really and this isn't always the case.
I mean, I think there's a lot of genuine cases out there in which people are posting on their profile, no, by play and they sincerely mean that. Like, that's not their thing and that's, you know, But what I find is a lot of people who are posting it on there are probably doing the same thing that I was doing when I didn't post that I was by, when I knew that I was by and I was engaged in by play because there's such a stigma around any type of male bisexuality in the lifestyle.
And So what they're doing in some ways, I think some of the couples that contacted me that still had that on their profiles, what they were doing was in a sense virtue sickling or sickling to parts of the lifestyle, OK, we're interested in this bull. This bull is very straight and he's not into any of that. And we don't want to ruin our chance of getting with that bull by acknowledging any sort of bi
inclinations that we may have. So I think that's what was going on with a lot of those couples that contacted me, even though they had that on their page. And then when they found me, it was like, oh, OK, here's the guy who's open and out about it. So he's probably more willing to let us have that experience
together. And you know something that I I definitely agree with that because I will be honest with you for years, for years if I saw that a a couple had on their profile that they were into by play, I wouldn't, I would not engage or respond to that couple at all. What's interesting is it was years later that that I realized that just because someone has that on their profile or omits it from their profile, you never really know who's what.
And there were, you know, there there were multiple times where after having conversations with people where they're like, Oh well, did you know that this particular couple, they're, you know, they're into my play and I'm like, wait, wait, what? You know, like I fucked right next to that guy. You know, we've tag teamed someone together and you know, early on in, early on, like it would freak me out. Like just just freak me the fuck out completely.
And then all of a sudden, like you realize, like, wait, why? Why am I freaked out by that? You know, the guy, the guy hasn't touched me. The guy hasn't hit on me. You know, he hasn't done anything to make me uncomfortable. But there were, I mean, lots of years that I would not, I would not even respond to a couple that had buy play on there because I always assumed that, you know, it's going to be automatically.
Oh, that means this guy's got to suck your Dick or this guy's going to want to play with your balls. You know, it. It was, it was like an automatic assumption. And so I think that once I realized that wasn't the case, or let me be more honest, once my wife taught me that that wasn't the case, once she explained to me that wasn't the case. But I definitely think that that that was a a huge thing.
And the second reason was I didn't want to be associated with it because I didn't want other couples to think, OK, well he's bisexual and on our profile because obviously we've we've been the lifestyle and we know so many couples, so many people. There was a time where that had to change because we have couples and friends in the lifestyle who on their profile they say that the husband's bisexual, which I can remember
the first. I can remember the first couple who we were friends with years ago, who we'd known them out. You know, we go to meet and greets. We'd always know we hang out with them. I mean, we've been to sex clubs with them. I play with the wife. And it just so happened we'd never friended each other on the sites. And we got a firm request. And I click on the firm request and I'm like, I get missus mocha like, hey, hey, hey, did you
know that this guy was bisexual? And she was like, how did you not know this guy was bisexual? And then all of a sudden you start realizing and and you know I can be I can be adult enough to admit that our programming when we're growing up makes us almost you're you're you're almost taught to be homophobic. It's just kind of what you're taught. So being deprogrammed was was a big thing and my wife really deprogrammed me to that where it's like OK.
You know you're you're no one's gonna eat you nobody's gonna no one's gonna jump on your back. Honey you're you're a 230 LB. Martial artist. You're fine. You're safe no one. And and then you start realizing like, oh, it's OK to associate with couples who are bisexual. It's OK to even play with a play with his wife. And you don't have to assume that this person is going to do anything to you. But it was a very long time.
And to this day, I have lots of male friends who will will tell you openly, like, no, I'm not going to play with a wife whose husband is bisexual. And I'm like, dude, you play with a lot of wives with bisexual husbands that you just don't know they're bisexual. Don't know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's and that's the thing that, you know, with playing even with couples that I, you know, last.
Yeah, last year I met up with a couple when I still lived in flipping Indiana and they were just across the line in Kentucky for me and the the initial contacts with the husband, he's like, well, he said. So you know, I, I do all the vetting and I showed you to my wife and she really loves your page. She, you know, loved the podcast links that you were on and everything really would like to
make something happen, he said. I will let you know that I want to talk with you about one thing and I said sure, shoot, I'm an open book. He goes, I'm not bi. I don't do any guy on guy play and I go, well, it's not, it's not obligatory, you know, it's not like you have to, you know, just because I'm bi, the bi play is obligatory. Like you have to do something like that's not the case. And to be honest with you, like even being bi like if it's like I wasn't attracted to him at all.
So like there wasn't like going to be an option for me. I was there purely for his wife who was a complete knockout. And you know, so it was one of those deals of like explaining to him like this isn't going to what's not going to happen. And what I don't believe ever happens is by Guy comes into a situation with the couple who isn't where the male isn't by and everybody's having a great time.
They go back to wherever to play get naked, The wife is there, and this guy, the Bible just sees this straight husband naked for the first time. It's like forget the wife. I gotta have it. And then, like, then, like, you know, the Bible jumps on you and the husband. Like, No. Like. Like, like. Get him off me. Get him off. Me and then like, you know, there's like a a flash forward to him like in the in the therapist office on the soap, in the fetal positions, like in.
And it just changed everything for me in that moment. Like, no, that doesn't happen, bro. Like that's that's not like the way this works, not the way any of this works. You know, there's levels to it and you know for me, when I've done by play, there's levels for it to it, for me. So for me personally, there have been couples in which I've been very attracted to the guy that
I've played with. And if I'm like if I'm not attracted, then I'm not going to say anything especially or if I am attracted and I know they're not, doesn't prove me to say anything. I'm not going to say anything. You know, that's Warren Rich, You know, I'm there for the white and every situation, every couple that I play with there for the white. First, the five play is just kind of like the gravy, you know what I mean?
So the there have been situations in which I played with the guy that I was attracted to the guy and that that was even better. And then there have been situations where the guy wasn't necessarily a type or someone that I would have played with in any other situation besides that situation. But I was attracted to the nuance and ways that I could dominate him and that he was completely submissive to me and the dynamic of dominating him and then being with his wife in front of him.
So there was that. There was that meant that that really that mental aspect really appeals to me. And then you throw in, you know, a little bit of the racial aspect of the, here's this white guy, usually of a certain age, you know, over 40 in a lot of cases with, you know, big time career where he's probably like an executive or he's, you know,
in a position of authority. And in this instance, he's completely submissive to this black guy who's younger than him, who's literally about to have his way with his wife in front of him. That is like a real mindfuck and one that one that like really turns me on. So like there's there's like all these dynamics that kind of go
into that play. And then when you're talking with a couple, especially when you're talking with a couple who's in the by play, you have to understand where they're at. Because in some cases it's a situation where, you know, the guy may have had two by play before he got married and he told the wife about it and she was OK with it.
Like if they if the journey went to that space, she was OK with it. You have some situations in which, you know, the guy has never had any experience with another man and it's something that he wants to experience. So like there's only certain things that he may want to do like fluff or you know a few things like that. And then there's some guys that are just like like basically I like what you do to my wife. I want you to do to me too. Like there's, you know that that level of it.
Yeah. And so and then you have to add then there are you have to because there's three people of this. So as a as A5 bull, I take it as my responsibility to find out what is the wife's level of comfort. Because a lot of times what she'll have is the wife is interested in the idea or she's OK with him receiving male on male pleasure she's you know,
that doesn't bother her. She may not one want to be around to see it because she may have like a mental thing about guy on guy or an idea or a thing about seeing him get pleasure from someone else, not her. So whether that's a man or a woman, so you have So as a fool I have to you know, ascertain and have those conversations with. So what is your level of comfort like once I find out like what he's looking for, like what his level of comfort is?
What is your level of comfort? What are you wanting to see? What are you comfortable with all of that? So then you understand where everybody's comfort levels are, where their boundaries are and you can play within that.
And if you have a good time with that, then people are usually willing to push a little bit further past those boundaries or explore even more with you because they have comfort and they have trust level there, so. So in in that situation and the situation where so you're like you're you're definitely like fully committed you're you're in like you you've your role is
your role within the lifestyle. Do you lose out on couples who are not into by guys and do you find that other men in the lifestyle are not as comfortable with you? And I asked that question because it's interesting where it it's kind of one of those things where I I think a lot of guys are very comfortable with the husbands being gay or bi or pan or whatever, but they're not comfortable if a bull is pan or
bi or gay. How does those like, how does that like do you find that that that affects how you interact, who you interact with and how you feel within the space?
Yeah. So for me the what has, what has fundamentally changed is that the couples that I'm interacting with when I first got into the being open about being bi and all of that, one of the things that happened for me is I was worried that I would lose access to couples because of you know, they're they they don't play with Bibles and like oh I really want to be with that wife but you know it's going to be uncomfortable a lot of cases for the husband to be around the
Bible. OK Now my belief is is is much different. I am so I I am becoming so comfortable in who I am and embracing that fully that I don't worry about lose. I don't term it as losing because if someone doesn't want to be with me, like I'm at the same spot where I was, you know, before I even met them. So I didn't really lose anything. I didn't invest anything, didn't lose anything. But the for me what has happened is I've had the benefit of
achieving quality and quantity. So I, as I as I came out is by. It actually opened me up to a lot more couples that I thought I wouldn't be able to play with and then. Explain that. It well, it distinguished me. It it it, it gave me a distinguishing feature of, you know, being different in a way that you know they're. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the only 5 bull that's out there.
But I'm a part of a very small. I'm a part of a very, very, very small minority of bulls who will be willing to be open and honest about it and not hide it. OK, So that is that is appealing. And then there are couples out there that want to be able to have that experience with a Bible. They want to be able to have a bull where you know the spirits with a bull where of course the wife is the the focal point of all the play. But the husband can get in there where he fits in, you know, you
see what I'm saying? And with without, without discomfort to anyone, without any judgement or anything. And so that opened me up to couples who were looking for that but who didn't, who weren't able to find that and would reach out to me, it's like, hey, like we're interested. That's something that we're looking for.
So the quantity perspective, the number of couples that's open to me is, is, is, is more than before because it's like I said, I have a distinguishing feature, one that couples are looking for, a lot of couples are looking for.
And in many cases, I mean there's at least several instances and I believe we had talked about this a couple of times, you know, in our, in our conversations off right there are, there are some couples that I literally thought I would like, OK, I saw her and I'm like, OK, I don't have a shot. And now they've reached out to me because they know that I'm a Bible and I'm open and honest about it.
And not only do I have a shot, but like they're actively pursuing me for play opportunities, you know, so, so it's it's that. But also the quality of my interactions has gotten exponentially better because there's there really are the barriers are are the barriers that might be there, the the walls or whatever. Those aren't as prevalent. The couples that I meet and I play with, I have incredible experiences with incredible dynamics. With conversation, sex, what
have you like? It's the quality of those interactions is so much better. Been even some of my best experiences before I was open and honest about it. So my, my, my time in the lifestyle since coming out of the Bible has been just really like going to the next level for me personally. So what do you say for because you know, this is a a conversation that over the years I've definitely had with quite a few guys, quite a few bulls out
there who are bisexual. But they're worried about the, you know, the the consequences of coming out. I I mean, I know that I've talked to friends who have found out that a guy in their circle was bisexual and they pretty much ostracized that guy. I know I've talked to. You know, I had some conversations with a few guys who were saying that, you know, they had played with couples and the couples, kind of the couples put their business out there.
I mean, I actually had somebody, you know, I've had guys come to me and and like, they're almost asking for like, like my blessing. Like, you know, hey, you know, I'm not gay, but like, whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, as your Dick is not mine, you do what you want with your Dick. And from a male standpoint, you know, men and women are different. You know when a guy thinks about doing something, like dudes don't really experiment with the thing.
Like, there's no such thing as a dude experimenting with something sexually, because a dude has already thought about it. He's beat his Dick to it 1000 times. And so whatever it is that you actually the choose that you want to do, even if you haven't done it yet, your mind is fully committed to it. You know the, you know, your first threesome, your you know the first time you do anything, you know that's something that your mind is already. You already perceived it.
So what do you tell guys who are on the fence or guys who are having a hard time saying, hey, this is how I feel and this is what I want to do, but I'm worried about being judged by my peers. What do you tell those guys? The first thing I would tell them is you got to own your shit
completely. And what I mean by that is if you got to decide for yourself you know what you want to be and how you want to be typecast, for lack of a better word, you you have to. So if you got to come to a level, for myself, I came to a level of comfort about this is who I am and I'm not willing to hide this part of myself on the lifestyle. I'm going to own that. I'm buy, I like buy play, I'm going to own the fuck out of
that. And for some guys, if you're still in the headset, if you're still in the headspace of you know I'm going to lose or I don't want to lose this group of people. They need to need to decide what's what's more important to you. It. Is it more important to you to be acknowledged and accepted for who you are or is it more important to you to be a part of this set of in this group of
people. Yeah. And at some point and and and that's I'm not going to judge anybody to say that's right or wrong because it's I've been at in in spaces in which it was at at some point in my journey. It was more important for me to be with this particular group or this particular couple than to be completely and fully who I was. OK, now that had some detrimental effects for me because I never, you know,
completely own my truth. And and looking back on that now, for me personally, I felt that I I felt that for me that was a little bit immature to want to be with that couple just because I want to be with them. But that's how I felt at that
point. So I would tell them is you have to judge what is most important to you in that moment and then own it. But I can tell you that if you are by, if you are into by play and you're worried about losing whatever, whatever couple or group that you lost, I can guarantee you, based on my experience alone, that it will open up more, better and greater for you. And you'll find, you know, like you find your tribe and they gravitate towards you because you're putting that out into the
universe. The second thing that I would say is we also have to become more cognizant and this lifestyle of labels and terms because I think a lot of times things get so fixed to where it's you. People almost feel like they're shackled to what that term means and they can't experiment and make it their own and add their own little twist on it and then be able to articulate that and a clear, concise way to the people that they meet.
Those are people that I feel like have the best life's best, you know, experiences in this lifestyle. Oh, I'm this and this is what this means to me. OK so for instance I I'm a fully, I'm I'm fully capable and enjoy having experiences with couples in which I can have full on play with the wife and oral play from the husband or full on play with both. There are guys that are not comfortable with that do not want to do that.
And that doesn't mean that you know if you're full on, if you're if you have play with the husband where he fluffs you or whatever, that doesn't make you buy. You're more hetero flexible at that point. You're very much heterosexual, but you're flexible to do some other things, and that's OK too, you know? And so. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah. Hold on. Wait a minute. All right, here's the thing. OK, now you're putting too much stress on a label.
Because here's the here's the thing about a label. There's two ways that people play with labels. They either, they either pretend like this thing doesn't exist, there's a definition of a word. They don't like the definition, and what they don't like is the idea that is associated with the definition. OK, because you hear the word bisexual and you know most guys, the next word they jump to is
homosexual. And then the next thing, the visual images, either some guy, you know, giving it to him or them, you know, gagging on a Dick. So the problem is when you hear the word bisexual, now all of a sudden, even if you don't do everything a person imagines you do, what you're doing now is you're trying to alter the definition because you don't like what the title insinuates. You gotta. You can't have it both ways.
You can't say people get too wrapped up in definitions and then you redefine the word because you don't like what the definition says. You can't tell people to be confident in what they're doing. If you're telling them to be ashamed of what they're doing by removing pieces of it like you. Like with my wife, when you talk about being a slut, you're going to be a slut or you're not going to be a slut.
You got to own it. Here's where I'll push back on that a little bit, because I think that people have to feel in some ways a little bit comfortable in how they're either being perceived or how they're being or how they want people to be perceived. And the perfect illustration of what I'll give you for that and the lifestyle is the term stag
stag fixing. Before it was understood that like you know and historically guy who's into or a guy who's watching his wife get fucked by another guy, whether he that's willing or unwilling with a cuckold.
But because cuckold tended to be associated with certain elements of the lifestyle, particularly by play, straight guys started using the term stag as a more masculine or whatever term to identify, hey, oh we're we're not into like the five, you know, the five aspects of like cuckold player. We don't, we we associate being a cuck with that stuff that we don't do. And so this term is to clearly define for everybody when you see this, you know, OK, this is
generally what they're into. So when I say that for like a bull if you're not into. At what point do I push back on that? That what you just said? Do I wait till you finish the sentence or do we chop it up in peace? All right, here's the thing to me, when you're, I think when we're talking about breaking down and identifying things, all right, because if someone goes, OK. You're cuckold, OK? We we understand that within this ecosystem, because the lifestyle is an ecosystem, all right?
The reason that is, is just to give the person the definition, a clear definition of what we're doing. So I don't even think it has anything to do with necessarily saying, OK, 'cause I don't want to be, you know, feel emasculated. I think it comes down to this when someone's asking me, hey, how do you guys play? All right. Because just like when you use the word swinger, you can be a soft swapper, you could be a full swapper. But if I say swinger, that
doesn't define those two. OK, well, what kind of swinger are you? So when we're talking about the difference between a cuckold and a stag, OK, what kind of guy are you? So that way if I see the word cuckold, OK, I understand that there is you want to see your wife fucked and there is a level of humiliation involved when you say stag. OK, I understand that this guy is a person who lets his wife get fucked and he fucks other
wives. If I say hot wife, I understand that this guy wants to promote his wife getting fucked, although he don't want humiliation. So now those definitions are there so that you can quickly identify which is which. Now when we go back to the sexuality piece, all right, because especially for men, I can't speak for women, but for men, we understand that our sex always evolves. No man, nowhere who's been having sex with women. His his sex will always evolve
if he's having consistent sex. So whether it be go from just having vaginal to now she's sucking your Dick to now you're fucking in the ass now you're doing different positions. So in a situation, and I can only speak from the man's standpoint when we're talking about male sexuality, if I am engaging with and sexual acts with a man and a woman by
definition as bisexual. Just like the other day I had somebody say to me that I work out with a preacher and he was saying that one of his parishioners, he asked them were they having sex out of wedlock and they go, no, we're just doing oral. OK, it the the title is oral sex. So he didn't ask for you having intercourse. He said, are you having sex? So to me, she was playing word games. And to me, like, if I say OK, well, there's different levels to bisexuality, I agree with that.
There's also different levels to sex. But you know, there's different levels to heterosexual sex. But that's it's heterosexual sex. We can dive into the levels of it because, well, she don't. I only get my Dick sucked. OK, but that's still heterosexual. I only get hand jobs from chicks. Well that's still heterosexual but now which? And once again I'm not knocking it, but I'm just saying by definition I think that the the difference in the lifestyle is we shouldn't have to.
We shouldn't, in the lifestyle have to do with a lot of people outside the lifestyle do change the definition of things so that people feel better about him. I should be comfortable. If we're saying we want every guy who wants to be in this space to feel comfortable being bisexual, we should get him comfortable with the word and the concept and not try to construct it differently because now you're training him to lie to other to couples. Well, no, I'm not bisexual.
Either you are or you aren't, you know what I'm saying? Because now you give him a place to lie. Yeah. No, no, no. I can see that I I can completely see that my my stance has always been for because like I said you know the stigma there is very very real for for I agree and you know so I've always approached it especially since being out in the open myself of you know comfort level being able to articulate according to your comfort level without lying to people
basically. But no, I I agree with you know, being being clear about the you know, definitions and what this means And so that way there because you're you're 100% right with the lifestyle that we're in. There should not be stigma around what people are doing among consenting adults because the the lifestyle in and of itself is so far out of the quote UN quote mainstream that this should be the most open and accepting place. But we bring a lot of those that outside world into this.
But no, I I agree with your sentiments by and large on that.
So going into you know just kind of just, you know going full circle with it. I will say that I I am very impressed in. I'm very impressed that you know coming from the same level of programming that everyone else has come from who stepped out of the vanilla world into the lifestyle, being able to get past multiple levels of programming and say, OK, I understand that within my family, outside of the lifestyle, I've already seen how they respond to to anyone who's not in a heterosexual
relationship. But you know I'm going to still get into the lifestyle and be open and do what I want to do. I definitely think that there is a a huge space excuse me, and a need for for for guys to be able to feel comfortable with it. It's conversation that that I I've had multiple times. I know that. You know I spoke to Mike C and he's encountered those questions. Dimitri and I had a conversation about guys, you know, being guys. The guys come to and talk to
him. It's cool to have a guy who is this is what I want. This is what I like and I'm very open upfront about it And because I know for me it gets awkward when a guy is like looking to me to see if I'm going to judge him. Like bro, I'm not going to judge you like I don't like, I don't care what you do with your Dick. Like it's not it's not my Dick. You know what I'm saying? You know are we still going to be friends after?
Absolutely. But we also had to get past a certain level of programming because your programs your whole life that that's not cool. And I I've said it before and I'll say it honestly, my wife is the one who who changed my perspective on how I respond to that. And we've had the discussion many times about men not having spaces where they can express themselves. And right now there's a huge movement.
And, you know, since my wife, since we started the podcast back in 2019, my wife has been an advocate for women to, you know, be dirty, be open, be slutty, be what you want to be. And that's something that's really taken off. But they're still really, there's not a space for dudes who can say, you know, I want to do what I want, and that's
within the lifestyle. Now, of course, there's different communities in different places where you know, guys can have a certain level of freedom, but within the lifestyle, it's still, it still doesn't exist. You know it doesn't exist because you know guys, you know, we talk about guys managing their emotions. So, you know, I appreciate you sharing that.
And, you know, I definitely think that you would be a good resource for guys who were saying, hey, I want to do this, you know, I want to do this openly. But I don't know if I, I don't know what to expect if I decide to openly embrace being a bisexual black bull. You know, because the black culture is is not very open to men being anything but, you know, super, you know, macho, manly, you know all Dick all the time, you know.
So that's pretty cool. Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, with dealing with that. You know it's so I feel like they're like I said in the lifestyle there's a lot of acceptance for me from couples that I that I've interacted with since I've come out to the open. I the the reaction from other bulls has been kind of mixed. There's been some guys that have, you know, told me that that wasn't something like they were.
I had one bull that reached out to me who's kind of become a little bit more antagonistic towards me. I think it's driven by the fact of me being openly by. But I remember first conversation that we had after I made a post about it was I'm not down with that and I that's OK, like if you're not who I'm talking to anyway. But you know, it's not like you're not the ultimate arbiter of like. Well, this is just like a random citizen who jumped in to tell you that he wasn't down with
that. No, he's a he's a bull. He he's he's in the the lifestyle community. But he wasn't down with me being open about being a Bible. Oh well, did you recant everything you said and apologize to the group? Hell no. Hell no. Like, I mean hey. I'm over here doing me. You go over there and you do you. You. Know. Like like kind of one, kind of one of those deals, like specifically when you said that like I'm not down with that, like OK, nobody asked you.
That's, that's right. You know, I mean because I mean to be honest with you like you know, as I've gotten to know him or know of him particularly especially like how he treats some couples, I ain't down with some of the stuff he does, you know. But that's that's how you roll and that's, you know this is how I roll over here. So it's it's it's kind of that's kind of been one of those
things. But you know, The funny thing is there's a lot of guys yourself, Mike, some others who play at a high level, great reputation within lifestyle, who have been open accepting but also affirming like hey, do you, whatever you do, continue to do it with integrity? Yeah. And that that's that's been, that's been really, really affirming to me over this
journey. One of the things is, you know, another thing that another place that I've gotten to is just, you know, is somebody's not going to accept it or be accepting of it. This isn't. I don't share this to seek approval or acceptance from everybody. I share this so people understand who I am and those people who want to deal with me understand who I am and understand who I am. Fully so nice. Very. Nice. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm.
I'm definitely glad to hear that nobody can come in and tell you to that they not cool with it and all of a sudden you were like, oh fuck it, I changed my mind. I mean, I respect that. Yeah, like, yeah, like you. Know then I wouldn't respect. You. Yeah. It's like, oh man, you're not cool with it. I'm sorry. Hold on. Let let me go over here and call all this pussy. Dad must be dead with me. And tell him that I'm not there, 'cause you're not cool with it,
like. Some random dude said this ain't cool, so now I'm going to change my whole life. Now it's fuck out. You're right. You know I I definitely think that you know if you're going to you you stick by you stick by what you believe and yeah if it's not affecting anybody else like I don't give a fuck what you think about what I do right and and my my there's there's
other questions. The other question is you know when you're dealing with what do you say to to couples what do you say to couples when they encounter bulls who are not openly bisexual but they they you know they they figure out a way to pull it out of them or they they do. I I had a gentleman come to me who was pissed off, pissed off because one of the couples who he played with, not realizing that the lifestyle was a small community, spoke to someone else
about how they played. And that couple came back to him and he was mad. Mad like he was warned to fight the husband. Mad like, bro, calm down. Like, calm down. You know, it's like, Oh well, you know, these couples say they want you to be discreet and blah, blah blah blah blah. And like, what do you say to couples when it comes to doing things like that?
I tell them don't like it. Like I I think it would just be best for them and to avoid any drama, you know, to not put someone's business out there, especially if you know that's like they're very discreet and you know, closeted about it. You know, I I can't speak to that situation. I've seen situations like that in which the couple was like, oh, well, you know, we engage with this guy and we know this couple is looking for it. And so it's kind of like a
recommendation kind of deal. I just wouldn't do that unless you know that Bull is open and honest about it or you've had a conversation with him and said hey, like we've got this couple who they we've had conversations with them and they understand they they're looking for a similar type of play that we have. And we just want to see if you'd be OK with us letting them know that that's something that you're open to and then going from there.
You know just just simple consideration that yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't just drop that with the other couple because then you have another situation where it's like you know that other couple. I mean you you don't know if like you know they they go directly to that book.
Like, hey, so we hear that, you know you're cool with this and so you're willing to play and now he's upset or you don't know if they went and told some other couples and now that's floating around And then that couple tells another bull or something. And that bull uses that maliciously to try to slander this guy or you know, bring it up or that's a joke or teeth. Like yeah, that's that's just a bad situation. So. Yeah, yeah.
And. And I know, like, Oh, my wife and I have been out to dinner with a couple and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, this guy does this, this guy does that. And we're like, hey, don't use his name. Don't use his name. Like, what are you doing? Like, don't say his name. It's a violation. You know, we're not gonna repeat it.
But like, holy shit, you just said that out loud, you know, I mean, and and I know that just we tend to be giving, we we get a lot of information because people know we're discreet. But I would definitely tell couples, you know be careful as far as saying names. And then the last question I will ask is this OK? And this is something that I I just, I learned. I learned once we because we were just you know hosting doing so many things in the lifestyle. So we we got to know so many people.
But before that, like if you're explaining to guys who say, well, if I'm looking at a profile and it says the husband is, you know it, the husband's not is bisexual versus not bisexual. So you choose not to play with them, but you wind up playing with, you know, couples where there's husbands who just aren't openly by openly bisexual.
So in your experience, how do you, how do you help guys get comfortable with the fact that, number one, you never know who's bisexual and #2 guys who are openly bisexual are not necessarily trying to grab your moles? That's a good question. Nice thought about this, especially when talking about talking to other bulls about
the. I think the best thing that I could do is to tell you to be to work on your communication piece in the beginning where you're like clearly communicating boundaries and understanding what they want and what you're looking for from the beginning so you can understand if that's a fit. And then enforcing those boundaries. So like, for instance, you go into a situation and you're OK with this, but you're not OK
with that. And they cross that husband crosses the line, You can clearly say, hey, that's not cool, this crosses the line, this this isn't acceptable. But for a lot of guys that, you know, if there's a bi husband, I think a lot of guys have to get into. The mindset of Because I'm 5 doesn't mean I want to be with you. Yeah, that's and it's and it's the. It's the same for like if you're straight, you know you, you're straight. You love to fuck women, you love pussy.
That doesn't mean you're going to fuck every single woman that you see, or will want to fuck every single woman that you see, and the attraction works the same way. What I find very interesting about the way particularly men think about bisexual, pansexual and gay men is that there's some that they're unable to control their sexual urge. And I don't know where that comes from.
I don't know socially like where that where that comes from, that's, but that seems to be ingrained in US programming wise, especially those of us who come from particularly homophobic backgrounds that that they're they're just going to pounce on you. They can't. They can't control themselves once they're exposed to your masculinity or to. You know your. Zombies. You whip your Dick out, they lose their mind. I gotta have it exactly, Yeah.
And send them to the chair. This guy, long time ago on this job that I had one of my very first jobs and this guy was about as homophobic as they come when he, you know, a whole lot of other phobias about a whole bunch of other people that, you know, weren't kids. But he was particularly homophobic. And he he would say that like there was this, there was this. So it was a restaurant and in this particular restaurant, it had like the cook line.
You could kind of, you could see the cooks like cooking. And so sometimes I would go up there and help him, took him out like like the assistant they had. And so we're up there. And there was this gay guy that would come in. He's like an interior decorator. But this place was like a steakhouse, had a lot of wealthy people that came in there, a lot of older wealthy people.
But then those guys come in there off the past with lots of clients and it's very, very flamboyant floral print jackets and everything. Every time this guy would come in, just the friendly, nice guy greeted everybody. Every time this guy come in, this particular guy, the cook that I worked with make a big show of having to go back to the back. Oh, I can't. I can't do this. I this is ridiculous. He oh man, he's, you know, trying to come over here.
And I'm like, and so one day I said to him, I said, I said, bro, you live at home with your Mama like you don't have, like taking the litter on women. What do you think this guy wants? That's it. You can't. You know. You know what? I was like, you can't even go into, like, the Humane Society. Oh wow. Wow. And you think this guy is just going to come over here, like attack you? Stop. He thought he was irresistible. He he thought he he thought he was irresistible, that somehow
every gay man would want him. And I'm like, dude, that's not the way this works. That's not the way any of this works. And so, like I, you know, Long story short, like #1, just understand, you know, what these couples are wanting, what they're looking for. And if that's not you, if that's not your desire, if that's not your interest and you're there for the wife, don't be ashamed of saying that in a very tactful way. I'm just here for the wife. I'm not interested in that.
So yelling out, so yelling out you can't suck my Dick, That's not. Necessary. Not yet. No, No, that's not don't talk to my butt hole, right? Or or, you know, like or like. As soon as you get done. As soon as you get done with, you know, fucking the like grabbing your clothes and like cutting yourself. You know, like smash the blanket off the bed and wrap yourself in it. I I wouldn't advise that either. You're making it weird, bro. You're making it weird. Right.
Because they're looking at you like what in the world, you know. So it's it's one of the situations of like, yeah, just you know tactically say because I guarantee you, I guarantee you that couple has had situations in which they've been in more situations with their straight bull who wasn't comfortable with a by cock and they had to or by husband and they had to suppress that. Then you've been in situations where you've been clearly uncomfortable. Or or.
You were in a situation with someone who's open and odds about who they were, and that makes you feel some kind of way. Yeah, it makes sense. That makes sense because I I I would, yeah, I guess that makes sense because they've have interacted with way more straight bulls and they would have interacted with bisexual bulls. Yep. And so if you're if you come to them and you say, hey, listen, I get it, I understand that's your
desire. That's just not something that I do or that I'm particularly interested in. But like if you're wanting a situation in which like you know, I play with your wife and you watch and stuff like that, hey, I'm cool with that, you know, and and you approach it you know, tactfully, respectfully, I guarantee they will reciprocate guarantees because those situations in which you find the guy is you know, over aggressive or something like that, that is a very, very, very, very, very
minute small occurrence. Yeah, I guess that's that's kind of like that that single guy stigma, where every single single guy is a an animal who can't control itself. And you know, single dudes, we get pissed off, but then you know we turn right around and do it to the to the to the husband who is bisexual. Like, I don't. I don't want you to assume that 'cause I'm a single dude, that I'm automatically be an idiot when I meet your wife.
But then I automatically, you know, now as soon as you get around a bisexual dude, you're like, I am so fuckable he's not going to be a container self. You know, that's that. I don't know if that's an ego thing. I don't know if that if that if that is something deeper there about what we think about male sexuality and that, you know somehow that male sexuality is it takes more control male sexuality than it does, you know, female sexuality.
I don't, I don't know what that is like there's something there that I haven't really been able to put my finger on. But I can tell you from personal experience, you know, from anecdotal experience and just from living like these guys ain't going to jump you. Like it's not going to be a situation where like this guy's going to attempt to rape you and you're like having a look at the wife and colour code 911 or something like this. No, that. It's not going to be like the police reporter.
You got to beat this guy up or something like that. You know, Like there's no such thing as a sexual zombie, and they don't exist for gay and violent either. That makes sense. That makes sense.
I mean and I, you know, I think that once again you go back to the old programming, it's, it's programming and everybody has some type of programming depend upon the year that you were born in. You know, you know, if you were born in the 40s and 50s, you would have thought that all black men were savages with the inability to control themselves, you know, And then we Fast forward to, you know, our
programming. You know, you being born in the, you know, 70s and 80s, you know, you think that all gay men or. But you think that all gay men, bisexual men, pansexual men, you know, are looking at every dude, you know, like the creeper in the movie theater with his hand under his pants, beating his Dick, staring them in the eyes, you know. So yeah, that that makes sense. And and once again I'll tell you, it was my wife who fixed my who fixed me on that like it was
her. And I will say, I know I would have never agreed with it when we first met because I was you know, I know I was homophobic when I met my wife. I never thought I was. I've been the lifestyle for years and I had no problem at all. Like I've never been mean to a person who had different sexual preferences. I I've always was always
respectful. But then I realized that it was just when you don't see, you don't see a group of people like you don't see them like people like you don't see them as people, you see them as a group. And I realized, like that to me is like, I never in your mind, you grew up and you're like, you know, I don't understand how people can be racist. I don't understand how people can be sexist. And that's because, you know, I I wasn't racist and I wasn't
sexist. But then all of a sudden, you know, it's like, whoa, this guy sucks Dick. Wait a minute. You know it's like and then my wife is like you do realize. You do realize like basically you're you're you kind of treat them like you people and I'm like, oh shit, holy shit, I'm a fucking bigot. You know what I'm saying? Like and then you know that's where everything changes. She's like, you know, don't
worry honey. I'll fix you and then you know, she, you know, and I mind you this was years ago. But you know you you behave that way and and you got to think, like, think of the close proximity that I, as an experienced bull, has played with couples for all the years
before I met my wife. Like I should have been the least, like the least, you know, bit homophobic because when you were playing with cucks and cuckold couples, even if you're not getting fluffed, you're in fucking close proximity. You know, you're listen, you're sitting there, you know, you
fuck the wife. You're over there eating your bag of Cheetos and drinking your Gatorade while he's cleaning her up. And you're talking about sports like it's it's that don't freak you out, but all of a sudden, you know, it's like, whoa, whoa, those people like, so yeah, so I can definitely see how the conditioning, you know, fucks us up. Sorry about that. No. You're good. So, you know, before we wrap this thing up, give me some words of wisdom before we we wrap this one up.
This is it's good shit. Yeah. I mean it's so I I think the the best way I can describe it is something that's kind of becoming a signature catch phrase for me talking to someone else. But I I was like yeah you need to keep saying that.
But my philosophy is just kind of distilled into they want to Dick, don't be a Dick. And I just, you know, act with integrity to treat people how you want to be treated and you know, get over, get over your your, your petty decisions and and preconceived notions and treat people like human beings.
And I guarantee, I guarantee you can have some positive experiences, even if you don't end up playing with some, even if that's not your thing and that's not your kind of play, they're going to be some quality people who are going to respect your boundaries, they'll probably give you some really incredible experiences. So yeah, just they want the Dick. They don't want you to be a Dick. I think that works for everybody. I think that's pretty universal.
Well Drew it has been amazing yet again. I appreciate you coming on man. I appreciate your insight your experience and your open mindedness and man we this is the third one man. I you know we we still got we still got more to do in the series everybody but man this has been a great this is I think this has probably been one of the the most the most let me see the the the most daring podcast
that I think I've done. You know, I'm really looking forward to the to the way the the male population responds to this podcast. Yeah, me too. Me too. So. Really like to hear, hear the thoughts, good and bad. I I mean, I I really don't. The good I definitely want to hear the bad. I'm kind of interested, you know. And I mean either way, love to hear, you know, people's feedback and opinions that don't be shy. Don't be shy at all. Yeah, yeah. But be nice. Yeah. Be nice.
Of course. Because, you know, I don't mind seeing what's on my mind. I am not. I have no problem with the confrontation. So, you know, don't ask for it and I won't deliver it. Right. Well, listen, until next time, everybody, Thank you for joining old faces. I'm Mr. Mocha on with Drew Marston.