Ordinarily Speaking. I've always been a proud Indigenous man, but now it's time to speak upon time.
Hello and welcome to Ordinarily Speaking, a podcast that celebrates resilience in sport. I'm narrowly Meadows. Today's guest is AFL star Zach Williams. The former GWS Giant and now Carlton recruit, has overcome plenty of adversity in his life. Zach grew up in a small town in New South Wales, raised by his mum and big sister after they lost his dad at a very young age. Last year, Zach made the call to leave Sydney and moved to Melbourne to
join the team he supported as a kid, Carlton. It was a lucrative deal that created plenty of headlines, but behind the scenes, his family was going through heartache. This is a story of a young man who says he owes everything to two strong women in his life, and now at twenty six, Zach has found his voice as a proud Indigenous man. If this chat is triggering for you, please ask for help. Lifeline and Beyond Blue are just a couple of places you can go. I hope you enjoy the chat.
Well.
Zaki thanks so much for spending some time with me. Tell me about the country town you grew up in, because we're talking proper country country town, are we.
Yeah, thanks for having me on you. But yeah, so full country on the river. I think I was not too short that the population is now, but when I was, there was about two thousand people. When I graduated year twelve at my local high school. There was only I think just around maybe less than thirty kids, maybe thirty kids in my year twelve class, so it was a very small party for us after we graduated. But yeah, I grew up in a Rendra. It's very close to eating where a few of the other boys I played
football with over my time. I'm from as well, and we'll get area if people know where that is. But yeah, I'm being I was up in Sydney for nine years and now at you. Sorry, now I'm down in Melbourne.
So tell me about your indigenous heritage.
Yeah, so I'm a gradery man from obviously country as well as like I just said, you know, growing up indigenous in Dungea, it was a very I guess divided community. There was a bit of racism, but you know, I didn't really take too much notice to that sort of growing up, you used to it and he just brushes off you pretty quickly. But then once I got into the I guess AFL and sort of saw it on
a national scale. And now they're a bit more mature, sort of hits a lot more now when I think back to my time living and growing up in our indra, So, you know, I was tough at times. You know, my mum is the Aboriginal liaison at the Narranger High School, so at the local high school there, so she, you know, obviously has a lot of connections with all the families Indigenous families back home, so which a lot of my family as well, a lot of cousins and stuff like
that back home. But you know, I was tough growing up in a you know, very fifty to fifty indigenous non indigenous community, so there was a lot of conflict, a lot of disagreements with people's and but you know, now that I'm a bit older and hopefully I can go back home and help out the community and maybe do some stuff, some community work back home and around the region to get the awareness out and try and stamp out racism.
What do you know now, that when you reflect, you think differently upon now.
I guess maybe just taking notice of the little slight racism comments or little actions that people do, whether they're knowingly doing it or not. I think back when I was growing up, I didn't take notice. It, Like I said, just washes off you pretty quickly and you're like, oh, that was a bit racist or whatever, and then you
just get on with your day or whatever. But now that I'm a bit older, and if I hear something in the news or you know, there was my teammate now, Eddie Betts has obviously gone through a lot of that stuff. So even stuff with him and other Indigenous boys in the AFL, or when I'm talking to mum about what's going on in the community. You know, there's little things that are just hit me a lot harder, I guess, and make me take more notice about racism back home.
How does it make you feel when you feel like something's racist and it's coming at you.
Yeah, I guess first initial reactions, I get angry about it and a bit frustrated, but it's just turning to more. It's sad really, like that it's twenty twenty one and there's still a lot of bad racism in Australia, and you know, small country towns, obviously it hits a lot, a lot harder because it's my home country town where I grew up. And obviously it's hard to stamp about racism and everyone's got to be on the same page and be educated enough to be on the same page.
But it's just it's really sad to be honest, Like, you know, my nieces she's only eight years old and she's already caught racism where she's in Aubury. So if a little eight year old girls coping racism, then bloody ell, you know we haven't. We've gone nowhere over the last fifty odds, so you use that. You know, we've actually become part of the referendum Indigenous people. So it's just sad.
It makes me upset more than you know, you want to be angry about it and everything, but you know, if I get angry about it, then I'm no better than the people that are given out the racism. So they're auditioning it out. So I just I just feel sad to be honest, and hopefully over the next few years, while I've sort of you know, on the afhold stage and I'm playing down Melbourne. I can sort of do a bit more for my community.
What did your niece cop?
So they were watching I'm not too sure what the movie was, but my sister rang me one day. I'm just absolutely human and furious. They were watching a movie, you know, about the Stolen Generation. I think it was one day in class and you know, one of her classmates actually just said, oh right, you should be on TV with you know, like go back to where you're from and all that kind of stuff. So for young kids,
she's only seven, eight years old. For young kids already know that by that age, it's it's quite disappointing to be honest. And like I said before, you know, my teammate goes through through a lot of that as well. Now in Eddie Bett's like he's copped. It's pretty well well documented that he cops a fair bit on the
national stage. And you know that's two different ages. Like there's Eddie who's you know, thirty odd and in his back end of his career, and then I got my young niece who's eight years old, who's competent at school, and you know, these it's not the kids felt that this young kid. Don't even know what they're really talking about. You know, they're probably just saying it, you know, just to try and get on my niece's nerves or you know,
trying to do something just to make her angry. But you know, it's just sad that it's happening to young kids like this.
When you first get the call from your sister about that, how do you feel in that moment.
Oh, you know, obviously I'm not her parent, but I'm her uncle, and it makes me want to drive down to the school and you know, say what I need to say to the school. But obviously platforms like this your podcast and talking about it when an Indigenous Round comes around, or whether I'm doing interviews and I need to speak up on things, it's really important because it's obviously still a massive issue in the nation that racism
is still around. And you know, but I don't think people realize how much it actually affects not just the families, but everyone, like the whole Indigenous community when people be racist. So's just sad. But you know, people just need to be educated and they want to have to learn, like they don't want to learn. Then it just shows how much of arrogance. They got to want to not learn about the history of Australia.
I guess what do you say to your niece? Do you talk to her about it?
Yeah, well, she gets very self conscious about because she's fairly dark skin, very she's quite a ten young girl, so a lot of people know she's Indigenous just from the color of her skin. And then she starts getting self conscious about the color of her skin. And I just try and reinforce her that she's beautiful with her skin, like she shouldn't shy away from being who she is
and being proud of being Indigenous. And you know, she's still quite young, so it's good that she's sort of learning to, you know, be comfortable in her skin and be comfortable with her culture. And like I said, it's just sad that's someone that young's got to cop it, you know what I mean. So it is quite I get quite furious about it, but it's more just sorry
for people that have to go through it. Like and it's obviously personal to me because it's my little Nicks And she comes home crying and upset, and you know, my sister keeps her home from school the next day just because she's worried about going to school. But you know, my sister's pretty good at She's a strong black woman, so she's pretty good at reinforcing her children that just don't worry about what other people say. Obviously, you need to speak up for yourself. And it's hard to tell
and that your old kid. Sort of the circumstances and how serious it is that racism is still a thing, So it's pretty hard.
It's so heartbreaking here, isn't it in twenty twenty one that we're having this conversation.
Yeah, it's like you said, it's twenty twenty one and it's still a massive issue unless people like Eddie Bett's or Adam Good's bring it up. It's sort of it just seems like sometimes it gets swept under the carpet. And in the AFL there's a massive, massive range of multicultural people in the game now and indigenous people. So I think that fella doing a good job at the moment of educating and doing as much as I can to get multiculture and indigenous people's educate people on their cultures.
But there's always more that people can do. Obviously, if there's stuff going on back with my local town with my niece and stuff like that. So there's always more work to do. But yeah, it's just sad that it's still a massive issue.
You bring up Adam Goods, how did that impact you at the time, because you were a young footy player trying to make your own way in the game and then this situation arises. How did it make you feel watching a champion of the game go through what he went through as a young Indigenous man yourself.
Yeah, so I think I was maybe my third year in so I was still trying to find my feed. I wasn't playing regularly in the AFL team, you know, I was still trying to find my way. I guess in terms of like being a football player. You know, I grew up always knowing that I was Indigenous, and I was like proud of being Indigenous, and you know, like I said, racism back where I was from, it
sort of just brushed off you. So when I come into the AFOL system, I didn't realize actually how serious it was and how bad it actually was around the whole nation when it all come out with Goodsy and he was going through all that stuff, and I guess, like you said, I was still a young bloke still trying to find my way, So I didn't speak up or anything, which I'm disappointed myself about. But I know
I was still young. But in these circumstances, doesn't matter a young or how old you are, you always your opinion matters on this, on this kind of stuff. So when I think back on it and about it, and I'm disappointed I didn't speak up, But at the same time it was sort of all a big shock to
me as well. But if I had my time again, I definitely if something like that happened again, then I'd definitely be one of the first to speak up and come forward and stick up from you know, my fellow teammate or you know, if happened to one of the boys and AFL, I will definitely be first first one up to stand.
Up when he was treated the way that he was and essentially booed out of the game. When you go home at night and think about that at the time, does it impact your self image? Does it? You know what the country is telling you.
Yeah, it's just it's a bit of a hard one because at the time I didn't really I was never taking notice of the booze. I was taking. I was actually taking notice of goods he playing because I knew that he was back into his career. Growing up, he was one of my idols in football, so I've always just taking interest in watching him play football because I love studying AFL, I love you know, I love studying other players, and you know, I love watching goods he played.
So I didn't really take notice of the booze or anything like that until I saw it on the news or saw it in the documentary a few years later, and just to see the way he was treated. He will go down one of the greatest players of the game, like, hands down, no matter what other players come in and do from now on, he will go down as one of the greatest players ever, Like he was an absolute gun.
And for him to get treated like that and not even do the Grand Final drive around and be sent off the way you deserve to be sent off, it's just I think it's very sad for him and his family obviously, but for someone like me, I'd look at that and I get so upset that someone like I know Goodsy fairly well from my time up in Sydney, so to see him go through that, and it just
makes me feel sad as well. So I hope down the track that the AFL do something for him, whether it's they put up a statue for him, or get him get him to a Grand Final to do a lap, or do something for him because he deserves it, because the way he was treated was just disgraceful.
To be honest, Am I right in saying that the Indigenous boys all got together and had a conversation about it a year or two later and what was how it was handled and how you all felt about it?
Yes, so I think it might have even been a year after Goodsy retired that Yeah, you know, all the older boys like shawny Berger and Abets, Michael Walter's, all these boys stood up at the camp and said, you know, it's not good enough from a player's point of view, Indigenous players point of view, that we didn't stand up and make our voice heard and didn't have his back enough. Because I guess that was a perfect opportunity for Indigenous players to all come together and make a statement, try
and stamp out racism and look after Goodsy. If we'd done that, it might have turned out a lot differently than what it could have than what it actually did. Sorry, So yeah, there was a few conversations after it all happened. But like I said, I was still a young young fellow at the time, So.
What impact does that have on you as a young bloke? Was that a pretty profound conversation to have witnessed.
It was a very confronting conversation, but it was also at the same time it gave me the confidence to be able to speak up and have my opinion on these issues, because on these issues, my opinion is never wrong because I know that my opinion is quite similar to Eddie Betsa's opinion and all the indigenous players in the competition, we all have the same opinions, so we all speak up and which I think over the last few years a lot of boys have is so powerful
when we all do that together. And it was a perfect opportunity to do that with the whole Goodsy scenario and what happened. But yeah, we just probably didn't do quite enough, I don't think.
Because it's your lived experience.
Yeah exactly. Like I'm sure it's not only just I'm sure a lot of the other boys probably feel the same way as I do, that they're disappointing themselves that they didn't stick up for a brother in the AFL competition and in the nation. So because if we've done that, I'm sure a lot of things would have been different.
What's the best thing about being an Indigenous man?
Best thing probably having skinny, quick legs.
To be honest, you were going to say family.
Well, obviously, but like everyone says family, and everyone knows that. You know, you grew up over in Wa, so I'm sure you know that all the Indigenous firms are quite close. The communities are, whether they're related or not. The Indigenous people always support each other no matter what in the indigenous community. So whether you're family or you're an Indigenous person and you know that Indigenous person over there, you know that you're going to have their back no matter what.
And I think the Indigenous cultures, it's obviously built on family and that that side of culture.
But those skinny legs.
Those skinny legs, And the thing is, I think probably most Indigenous people have the quick skinny legs too, So I'm pretty sure a lot of the other boys would be happy with their legs. I reckon, I love it.
Have you embraced culture more as you've gotten older.
Yes, that's a That's one thing that I'm definitely trying to work on at the moment and get more knowledge about when I'm from my tribe, even other tribes. Like I live with Bobby Hill for a year and even asking him questions about where he's from. And you know, he's very close with his family as well, so you know, even when his mum would come over, I would ask her questions about where they're from. And it's the working progress because growing up, I never really I knew I
was indigenous, and I was proud of that. I'd tell everyone I was Indigenous and I'm a black man and whatever. But in terms of getting into the culture side of things, I never really, I guess, got into that. Yeah, I'd never quite embraced it. And now over the last couple of years, now that I've matured and you know, I've had some things going on in my life over the past couple of years, I felt like I'd need a bit of that spiritual cultural awareness, I guess to make
my life and my well being a lot better. And I think it's important for everyone to go down that path where they're indigenous and not indigenous multicultural to go down that spiritual path and you know, you find out about yourself a lot more.
What have you learned that you've you've embraced.
Just the history, you know, my I've caught up on obviously last year in the COVID breakout, I'd caught up on zoom calls with like two or three times as my cousin, and just learned about past and you know, the I guess, the tragedies that have happened around my community. It's quite shocking, to be honest, like what I've learned about my local community and the way Indigenous people were treated like around my area back back in the day.
But you know that's not just my area. There's a lot of other communities that have gone through all of that as well, and probably it's probably it's definitely happening to this day in local communities that Indigenous people are getting treated unfairly. So yeah, just learning the history, I guess. So when I when I can speak about this stuff, I know what I'm talking about, and I talk with a bit of passion when I talk about it too,
because I know the history. That's why I think it's important for everyone to learn and educate themselves on the history of Australia, because it's shocking, it's very bad. But you learn about it, you move on, you have a discussions, you talk about it, acknowledge it, acknowledge it, and then everyone heals from there and everyone can get along from there. But until people want to do that, then all we can do is just learn about our history.
Tell me about your pop. He was alive around the Stolen Generation each, how did that impact his life?
Yeah, well, look, I haven't talked too much about that with him too much, but there's definitely something that I want to and probably need to get in touch with him about a lot more. But yeah, he was a young feller and you know he used to run away from the police or the people whoever it was that used to come and collect the kids, and you know, you'd have to run away and hide and then come back home when he could when they'd leave. So if you met him now, you wouldn't really you would and
tell that he's been through all that. Obviously he's an old man now, he's just a fun, caring black man and you actually wouldn't even think that he had been through that, just with how happy he is with his life and you know, loves coming over tom Mum's place of just randomly showing up, not even telling us and showing up, and yeah, to have someone that's been through all that, it's probably something Percy I need to tap
into and learn about a lot more. Like I said, if I'm more educated on this stuff, then I can go to other people in the community and talk to them about Oh this actually this is personal for me because he's actually happened to my pop.
The level of fear that he and his parents must have been living.
Yeah, yeah, well even the fear of these days of being racially realified is it's scary. So I can't imagine what they would have went through back then, going through Is there people going to come to my house and take me away from my family? Like, I can't imagine that absolute fear that he would have through and other families as well for that matter. Like there was a
lot of a lot of kids taken. And that's one of the things in Australi's history that people they acknowledge it, but they I feel like they don't know enough about it. They haven't learned enough about it. Yep, they acknowledged it, but you know the scars it's left for a lot of people. It's still traumatizing.
You do a lot of work with Indigenous youth these days, don't you tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah, Up in Sydney I used to do. Like Western Sydney is quite a big population of multiculture and Indigenous people. So down here in Melbourne, I haven't really got me bearings yet. But once I get sorted and stuff like that, I've want to start up a community sort of academy back home, whether that's in ner Andro, Wagga Aubrey, just
to help kids. You know, firstly, I want to help the Indigenous kids about the same time, whether it's kids that are struggling regardless whether they can come in and get some help and find their way as well. Because there's not a lot of growing up. There's not a lot of opportunity in country New South Wales, in these towns unless you know, you have to move away to
get noticed. If you want to play sport or play football, you have to go to a boarding school and come down to Melbourne, or go to Sydney or go to Canberra for these opportunities. But on a startup something where if there's a gun football in football or in Riindra, he doesn't have to be taken away from his family or has to leave his family to go try and
make the AFL football. Like, I want there to be someone in Wogat for these kids and whether it's helping him at school or helping him with sport or anything. I want to start up a community academy or something like that where just encourages kids to ask for helping they know they got the help there to succeed in life.
Because I feel like the two things that are coming across most strongly from you talking about it and you speak with such passion, which is amazing. One having people like me acknowledge the pain and the history, but two for having Indigenous people be proud Yeah yeah, of who you are and what you stand for and where you come from. Is that a fair summary?
I guess yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of you know, Indigenous people are shy people. You know you might not see that you might see because you're watching football and you see a lot of the Indigenous boys just absolutely turn it on on TV and you think, oh wow. But then when the cameras are not on, there's a lot of shy boys that are afraid to speak up, whether it's you know, they haven't really the same case
as me. Like growing up, I didn't know enough culturally and the about the history, and so it's hard to speak up when you don't really know these things. But yeah, if you're proud and you want to learn your culture, then that's what I'm passionate about, Like just learning. If you learn about these things, it's not harming anyone, Like
you're you're doing better for yourself. And if you get caught in the circumstance of whether there's racism or anything like that, you're strong enough and your willingness to be able to speak up on these things just goes to a whole another level. And that's why one of my favorite people ever, and even if I didn't know him is Eddie Best, because he's so strong on this stuff and he's been through so much, but he still keeps speaking up about it because he knows that it's his
job to educate other people about this. And you know, he's even educated me. He wants me to speak up and talk about these things. So like, not even just non indigenous people, it's everyone's got to acknowledge what's happened and learn about it and then be strong enough to talk about it.
Tell me the first time he came across Eddie Betts.
I think it might have been my first ever Indigenous camp in Alice Springs. I think I was eighteen or nineteen, my first, first or second year, I can't really remember, but yeah, that was my first time meeting pretty much all of the boys that I looked up to watching footage.
So I was you're the biggest smelling Yeah.
Yeah, just because now that I never really thought like I had to think about it too much, but you know, it was the first time I saw Buddy was there, Goods he was there, Lindsey Thomas was there, trav Varco was there, like it was just all these older boys I used to watch and they all played in Grand finals at the time, like when I was growing up. So I was like, holy ship, Like I'm actually sharing.
It's crazy. I know it's crazy because Travor I've roomed with Trevor Varco and I don't even know if he remembers this, but he I think he was coming off a Grand Final with Geelong a few years prior, and I was just like like I'm brooming with Holy shit, I'm rooming with him right now. Like, but just to see these boys up. No, I wasn't like that. I
was definitely not like that. I wasn't. Yeah, but Eddie obviously I would grow up going for Coulton, and that's when Eddie was kicking amazing goals and killing it for Coulton. So to see Eddie like it was once in a lifetime thing for me. I was just like shit like, because I didn't know I was going to end up a Culton. So when I was there, I was like, shit, like, I'll better take this in because I don't know what I'm going to see him again, you know what I mean.
And then yeah, I was just having to finally be down here and play for Colon. Then he's bed teammates. It's crazy, it's so crazy, so crazy.
It's fair to say he tried to recruit you last year too.
Yeah. You know, during the game, like I was playing on Zach Fisher, I was playing half back at the time, and me and Zaki Fisher would be up and Eddie would be standing behind me and I'd just hear Eddie chirping and I'd be like what's he what's he saying? I'll turn around. He's like, yeah, I'm talking to you, like I better see you next year. I'm like, Eddie, I'm trying to focus on playing and beating you guys here. Don't talk to me like. But you know, it's all
fun and games. And he's always he's I've never seen him not happy, Edie. He's always got a big smile on his face. And you know, I'm actually stoked on his teammate. And you know, I think it's pretty well documented from the cult media that I think they went to my school teacher when I was in high school or no, back in primary school maybe I can't remember.
And I was kicking a football by myself or something, just waiting for class or something to start, and I was talking about Eddie Betts kicking me to the football and I'd get it and I would kick a goal and I'd be in a Grand Final. And you know, so hopefully that's all true. Hopefully I have the next well this year, I don't know how a lot much longer Edie will play, but you know, if we make it this year, Eddie, you better give me that handball, mate and kick a win and go in the Grand Final.
But it's just it's so surreal meeting people like that, not only from the football people like you know, like I said before, the culture. So I think too, like he's someone him and goods of people that I look up to, and I want to be like when I'm at the end of my career, I want to look back in my career and be like, Yeah, I spoke up, I've done this. I've done that for my indigenous culture, and I helped a lot of kids out coming through and I helped a lot of other people speak up
as well. So you know, if I can get to that stage of where they are, I'm going the right way in life.
Really, you mentioned it before that Eddie's obviously copped a lot, particularly on social media over the years. Have you copped that sort of stuff?
No, I haven't, But you know, when you know, Leem Ryan and Eddie Betts and all these guys are copying it, like it's it's not just those boys that suffer. It's like the other Indigenous players get furious about it, like other players get absolutely fired up about it, and it hurts.
It hurts, But it's not only that, Like you feel for Eddie's family, Like Eddie's got five kids now and his family and Goodsy's family, like I can't imagine what you know, all of his kids are really young, so like Eddie's kids are young, so they probably know the extent of what's going on. But when they grow up and they look back on what their dad went through, like holy shit, Like it's you don't want your kids to know that your family went through that kind of stuff.
As long as we and I know Eddie won't stop, I keep speaking up on these things and talking about these things and bringing it up and putting people that are being racist in the spotlight, then it's only going to be better in the long run.
Are you in awe of him and the strength?
Yeah? Like it was first it was always the footy side of things, but now it's now that I'm a lot mature, and you know, my sister's got three kids and with my niece gone through that kind of stuff at school, Like it's to look up to, Yeah, to look up to Eddie and the way he goes about being racially vialified. I do. He's He's one of my idols in outside of football, in this aspect as well.
You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Zach Williams. I want to talk a little bit about your upbringing. Tell me about your dad.
Yeah, so my dad passed away in two thousand and I was six. My sister was turning thirteen, just going into high school. You know, obviously my sister had a lot more memories than I do. I was still fairly young. But from what I can remember, you know, he was a rugby man. He was a rugby league man, so but from what I've heard, he was pretty good at It's pretty handy at AFL as well when he was playing in foods local like Nrandre Eagles, so he's quite handy.
But for some unknown Shane reads and Mum always tells me that she tried to sign me up for rugby and he put me into I was kicked. So I don't know if this was the plan the whole time to get me here to where I am today. But he knew something, that's what mum said. Mum said, he knew something. But you know I used to I still got memories of going to I was kick with him and all that kind of stuff. But now that I look back on it, I feel for I have a lot more feeling for my sister and my mother because
you know, that was Mum's partner. My sister was going through a stage going into high school, you know, probably going through other issues becoming a woman and stuff like that, you know, and for her dad to be taken away as quick as he did, as quick as it happened, then, you know, I sort of sit back and think, you know, I sort of got sheltered from that because I was so young. I had these two women shelter me from all these So I sort of feel this is why
I love my mom and my sister so much. And no matter what interview I do, and I matter what media stuff, I'd always mention those two, those two women in my life. And my mum and I mates now we're like, she's a lad, so we're like we're like best mates. And my sister's the mother figure. It's quite funny.
Every time I go home and I have big with Ma Matt my sister's house, my sister, you know, wants to kick us out because we're carrying on my pool chops, you know, my mom and I. So this is the mother figure in the household now, which is so funny to me, but yeah, it was quite tough growing up without a dad, going through being a teenager and then doing all this stuff. He was a cult man as well. So in fact I'm here now and you know, and he's not here. It's sort of hits home pretty hard.
But I got mum, got my sister, got my sister's kids, and got the people I need here. So it is tough, but we've got by.
Is it true that you write Dad on your wrists every game?
Yeah, so I get emotionally, but I didn't know You're going to bring How do you know that? That's crazy, That's that's so crazy. But yeah, every I've done it, from my very first game against Gold Coast when I first come into the league till now. Yeah, I still do it. And his favorite number six, so I'm wearing number six. Thanks Kate Simpson for that, but but yeah, it's still his home. I put dad number six on
my wrist. And you know, obviously football is not perfect when you're playing it, and you go through some hard times on the on the field in the game. But every time I'm struggling or I'm not playing the way I want to, part, just look at that and gets me gone again. How did you die from anemonia? Happened pretty quickly, Yeah, just I think he got misdiagnosed with asthma,
and then yeah, just he had pneumonia. And then by the time they realized that it was pneumonia in his lungs and all that kind of stuff, it was, it was too late, and it just happened fairly quickly, to be honest.
You have some memories of that time coming home from school.
Yeah, it was quite quite scary, you know, coming home and the I think it was the asthma machine, like, it was quite loud, and I didn't know what was going on, so I thought, you know, I was just doing that to get better, and then never got better.
And then I remember being at the hospital, remember walking into the room when he had this scary ass mask on his face, like you, I mean, like to try and help him breathe and all that because they thought it was something else when it was in fact ammonia. But quite traumatizing.
How does it shape a young man when you lose your dad that early? What impact did it have on your life? Do you think.
I think, you know, I wouldn't change anything because my Mum and my sister. They raised me the right way with I'm respectful to people, like treat people the way I want to be treated. But you know, there's always things growing up, like you know, my birthdays like eighteenth, twenty first, or whether I was hitting high school or
making state teams or anything like that. You know, it is hard and I think back that, you know, Mum did struggle doing it by herself in terms of because I was quite a sporty kid, paying for basketball, paying for football, paying for soccer, playing for school staff. Like it just it got to the point where I was just doing too much. I had to choose one sport and I chose AFL. And you know, maybe if Dad was around, I could have been doing a lot more
different sports or whatever. But like like anything, you want, you you want your parents and you want your family around to be at milestones in your life. And I've had a quite a fair few milestones in terms of making my first state team growing up, and then getting MVP for New South Wales under eighteens, and then being drafted, going to the Giants, moving to the Giants, and you know, for example, when I've done my Achilles, like not having
like mum, Mum can't trade away. Mum was absolutely star during my Achilles red hat, but you know the fact that she had to do it all by herself, and if I just had another sort of shoulder to lene and you know, would have obviously would have been a lot better. But like I said, I wouldn't change anything. My mum's been and my sister has been absolute rock stars in the way they've gone about it and the way they've raised me and the way that my sister's
raising her kids now, absolute superstars. So tough, but like I said, I wouldn't change anything.
It must have been so tough for your mum grieving the sudden loss of your dad and raising two kids, and like you say, the financial stress as well, that it's so much for her.
Yeah, it's I sort of took all of that for granted when I was at home, because I didn't realize the extent and how much pressure she was under and how much strainer would have taken for her to raise two kids and being able to pay for this and that and pay the bills and having to work long hours at a job and everything like that. But you know, when dad passed away, Mum went, you know, through some stuff.
My sister at a young age had to step up and help out a lot in terms of raising me and getting me to ton from school and helping mom out with the groceries or you know, helping around the house or whatever. So you know, there was times where my sister had to look after me, if like mother figure. So I think that's why my sister and I are fairly close. To be honest, I don't I don't blame Mom for any of that because now when I look back,
it's it's fucking hard. It would have been hard for her to lose her partner, and then she's got a six year old kid and a young woman that's going into high school. Like Jesus Christ, she would have been going through some stuff. So all the stuff that she had to dealt with mentally, I don't blame her one bit for it, because I would have would have been tough for anyone going through that circumstance and that situation. So yeah, two strong women in my life and love them, love them to death.
Sound pretty proud of him?
Yeah, Oh, I'll tell you what. Everything that I've accomplished in my life now, and I've always said if I could give my contract to those women, I would give it to them and I'll just play footy. I'll just give them all that I have and I'll just play footy. But obviously it doesn't work like that. So but now that I'm down Melbourne's a lot closer to them, and no doubt they'll probably be down here every bloody weekend. Won't be able to get rid of them. But yeah, everything to them really fair to.
Say you were a bit of a rascal. What kind of words do you want to use?
Yeah, I guess, you know, I did take advantage of the fact that, you know, my sister moved, you know, found her partner, and she moved out quite young and had her oldest quite young. So sort of took advantage of sneaking out when I was supposed to on school nights, or going to parties all weekend and not telling mom, and you know, just doing doing dumb shit really like
drinking obviously going to parties. You know, there was a period of time there where I got sucked into smoking weed when I was like fifteen, and I was just doing dumb shit like that, And I guess I was taking advantage of the fact that Mum was a single mom, and I didn't realize how much stuff she was ying through because I was just oblivious, because I was just being a little shitted and I just wasn't worried about that having to put up with a sixteen year old
boy in trying to get him to school high school. He's not listening to you. He's going out drinking every weekend, smoking like and not having a father to kick him up the backside, you know what I mean. Like, it's it's probably got to the extent where Mum would yell on screen, but I would just brush it off. It wouldn't even affect me. So it got to the point where, you know, my sister. I was shit scared of my sister because she's not afraid to throw a punch if
I should say so. She threatened me a few times and like pull your head in and I'm gonna come over there and I'll give it to you, you know what I mean. So, so it was probably a good thing that I had someone like her and her partner that I was quite scared of in terms of like a bit of fear exactly. So it made me think twice of the some of the things I would do, but you know, it's I think every teenage boy goes through.
That's that sort of segum stance. But I think I took a lot more advantage of it because I only had Mum at home and I knew you got to the point where she couldn't control me because I was becoming a young man. I just took advantage of it, to be honest. But now I look back at it, I'm just like, you fucking idiot, what are you doing? You know what I mean?
So, is there is there any one moment that you look back and you're particularly ashamed.
Or definitely it's definitely the smoking. I think, you know, I grew up around it, and there was a lot of people back in my community, like Feemily doing it, and you know, when Dad passed away, Mum started doing it as well. So I was around a lot of it. And Mum stopped doing it, like she obviously she went down a road that she didn't want to go to, so when she found a way back, she stopped smoking and everything like that.
But as far as mental health goal.
Yeah, so I knew I could see it firsthand that other people were doing it, and I didn't want to be. I would always say that I didn't want to be that kid, and I just got sucked into it. And yeah, there's that. And obviously I always regret taking advantage of Mum, so which is which is hard thing to say because you know now now who I am today. I love Mom to death. Like like I said, we're like best mates now, you know what I mean. So when I look back, I'm just like, you an idiot? What were
you doing? Like why would you treat your mother like that? You know what I mean? Like when she's yelling and screaming, I should have pulled my head inline got back into gear, gonna rocked up the school on time or whatever. Like they got to the point where Mum would just wake up for work, wake me up, and then she'd because she worked at the high school, she'd drive to work early just because she's a teacher there and had to look after other kids. I'll go back to bed and
go to sleep, you know what I mean. Just little things like that, like.
And your poor mums at the school at school show you.
Know what I mean. Like, and she had a like obviously had a good reputation, and I was letting her down as her son and just like sort of like she couldn't get her backyard clean, then how could she go to school and tell other kids what to do. So little things like that that I regret, but we all live and learn. I guess.
Is it fair to say that because you didn't get picked up in the national draft you were rookie, rookie listed and late in the rookie draft. Is it fair to say that you think some of your off field stuff maybe impacted your AFL career in that sense.
I think the main thing that impacted me was I went to boarding school in Aubrey and I only lasted twelve months and I went back home to finish school. So I knew if I stayed in Aubrey, I knew I wasn't going to finish school. So what was that? I just I didn't like it. Yeah, just I don't know if it was home sick. I think it was homesick. But it was the first time I moved away from marm and moved away from home, so it was quite tough.
And I just couldn't get into the groove of being at boarding school and doing the studying and putting time into study, and on top of that I was driving down to when you're at it for Murray Bush Range training every week. So it was quite it's quite daunting for me to one move away from home, but then to have all this stuff on my plate at the one time I wasn't used to. So I went back home,
finished year twelve, and then the draft come around. And you know, during my year twelve year, I just should have listened more in school in my year twelve year, done better at school. But in school, yeah, exactly, do better in school in year twelve, but done the eighteens camp with the REMS. I was the MVP. I got invited to the national combine. I was the only one
from New South where I was invited. You know, tested, met with met with like eight teams, so I think it was and done the interviews, which is scary as hell. I'd love to do them interviews now. I think I'd do a lot better. But yeah, you know, I thought I was actually quite a good chance. And you know, all these teams were gave me some pretty good signs, but I was probably just oblivious as a seventeen eighteen year old kid, and then I thought I was a
good chance. He get drafted, didn't. I didn't get drafted in national Draft, and I think that's because teams saw that I got homesick and they probably got worried that I was gonna only last few years and then go back home, which fucking infuriates me. It makes me so angry because a lot of boys that you know, come through the draft where they're from Wa South Australia, no matter where they're from, if they get drafted a team.
There's been so many cases where even at the Giants, I know a lot of boys that got homesick and come home. So they left the Giants and come home and they still went and top pixel, you know what I mean. So I still keep a little chip on my shoulder, like on my shoulder with that kind of stuff. But I think that affected my getting draft as well, the homesickness, and I was devastated. I was absolutely shattered.
And then the next day after the draft, Lucky Buzzard, the academy recruit at the time, he run all the the Giants academies around the regional areas and bring me up, said if you want to get on a list, we come train with us for I think it was four weeks or something like that and try and get you on aie rookie spot list. And I was training. I
was training fairly hard. I think when I first got up there, I was living at the top of a pub in a room until I could get into living with the welfare Craig Lambert and the Lamberts at the time, so I went from the pub into their oldest daughter, Briley. She's my age, so she was away at the time, so I moved into her room to the welfare people's house for like a month and a half. So I was literally living out of a backpack pretty much for
two months until the draft came. And then you know, Sheeds and I think there was a few people at the club at the time that didn't want to put me on the rookie list. But fortunately I was training fairly hard, and I think Sheeds and a few others, Gabby Allen and craiglar but it saw the potential that I had and they just end up checking on the rookie rookie list. And I think I went the last pick in the rookie here draft, I think. So, you know, it's little little things like that I keep in the
back of my mind. And you know I always have this I'm going to prove you wrong mentality, and which is you know, coming down here, there's to Melbourne. There's obviously the media down here is a lot bigger and
a lot more upfront than it is in Sydney. So you know, I'm in the spotlight now and they love it because if you got something to say about me, I hope you got the same energy when I come out and prove to you what I'm about, so you get physically I'm getting bit sweaty talking about this, but like I said, like that's what drives me, Like I love I love thinking back in those moments and just proving to people like you should have picked me up, you should have done this, Like I know my worthy.
Why couldn't you see it? But at the end of the day, like I said, like by the time my career is over and done with, I'll be happy with the footy side of things. I have no doubt. I'm quite confident in what I can do and my ability and what I can do to help my teammates to get to where we need to be. So yeah, it gets me fired up a little bit when I talk about it. But it's all part of it, really, it's all part of it.
Last year, tell me about the phone call when you found out about your sister.
Yeah, so my sister had got diagnosed with cancer and I'm quite furious with her because she didn't tell me straight away. So if you listen to this, Smith, I'm not happy about that.
But is she trying to protect you?
Yeah? I think, like I said, she's like a mother figure as well. So I've really I've got two mums in my life. So it was quite quite hard to get that phone call because you know, I knew that this was a contract year. I knew footy. I needed to play well in footy. I needed to do what I need to do to set myself up, and then for this to happen just sort of almost a spender in the works early days and then that might hamstring
as well. Like a week after I found out, so I knew I was missing the first couple of rounds of the year, and I was like, fuck sake, like Smith has gone through this. I can't go see her because like obviously COVID reasons, and you know, I need to be playing footy. I need to be at the club to get my contract year. It's a big year. I need to make sure I'm doing everything I can to set myself up so I know that I can
help them out in the future. But at the time, all I want to do was just go home because I was injured. I got the phone call from her, and all I want to do was just go down and support her and be around her. But at the same time, I knew there was a risk with me going home, like she was getting chemo and doing all the treatment stuff. So I happened to have COVID and
I went back and she got it. It probably would have affected her a lot more in a way than what it does other people get people that have gone through COVID. Yeah, it was tough. It was fucking tough going through that, but it was just and it was hard because we went into the I think we were into lockdown, like away, like into the hub. Sorry, it was a very stressful time. But yeah, she's all healthy now, she's getting back on track, and yeah she's she's in a happy spot at the moment, which is good.
How'd you feel when you hear that news for her? I imagine it goes from you know, feeling like she's the mother figure, as you describe it to all of a sudden wanting to protect her.
I guess, yeah, it was. It was tough because our dad passed away when he was fairly young. Well I think he was twenty eight, twenty nine, so I think she was thirty one thirty thirty one last year, so she's still very young. And she's got three beautiful kids. She had a husband. One. Mine went to shit, I'm gonna lose someone at a young age again, and these like my sister's kids are going to lose one of their parents at a young age like I did. I was like, shit, like this is just just it was scary.
It was very scary. But you know, there was a couple of weeks there when I was down in the dance and I was I think she what she needed for me was just to be positive and be strong. So my whole attitude just changed, and I told her, like, we'll get through this, Like she's a very strong woman, she'll be fine, she'll get through it. Just make sure she's doing all the right things at home and getting the treatments that she needs to get. And if she's doing that, then you know, we got some looking up
over us. So you'll be fine. I said, you'll get through it, and she did, and she's all healthy and all the kids are healthy, and yeah, so we're in a really good spot at the moment.
What kind of cancer was that?
Ovarian cancer? The doctor said, you got something on your over it. You got a lump or cancer there, and he goes, you need to within the next twenty four to forty eight hours, you need to go get it checked. You need to go get a blood test. You need to get it checked because if you don't, it could be fatal. And you know, she it's quite a scary time when people in your family go through stuff like that.
Like everyone's got stories like that and their families and hardships, but you don't really you know, you hear about people and you're like, oh shit, that's that sucks, but until you actually go through it, you don't realize actually how tough it is for people to go through stuff like that. So it was a very daunting time. But like I said, I knew that she was going to get through it. She was a strong she's a strong young black woman. So and yeah, she's all healthy now, which is good.
The word cancer hits you, doesn't it when you hear it.
Yeah, it scares of shit out of you because it's obviously very well known cancer around the world. So you know, as soon as you hear that in any form of discussion, it's quite scary.
Knocks the window. Ay, Yeah, so she was getting she lives in Aubrey, but she was getting treatment in Melbourne. Was that part of the reason why you wanted to head back to Melbourne?
Yeah? You know I was in the Hub and you know she was going back and forth to Melbourne a few times. You know. For me, I was thinking, shit, I should be there. If I was in Melbourne, she could just live. She could be living at my house now and not having to drive back and forth. Like I can't imagine what it was like to go get the treatment and then having to drive home or having to stay the night in the hotel, you know what
I mean. So, and the kids were going through school, you know, like, so her husband couldn't really come with her, so it was quite it would have been a tough time for her and for me it was just if she had somewhere to stay, it would have been so much more convenient for everyone and the whole family. So that was the main reason for me to move away from the Giants. It was a hard decision because I've
they gave him an opportunity. I grew up, I've become a man there, grew up with a lot of the boys there, become men with a lot of boys there. I was close to a lot of the staff there, the coaches, leon, you know, I was close with everyone involved. So it was a tough decision. But you know, people always speculate, you know, the contract side of things and all that kind of Oh that's why he left, and I was whether I was going to get a bag
of chips in my contract. I was coming downy anyways, because for me, I've been away from my family for too long and for that to happen too, my sister and may not be here. That was the deciding factor for me to come down here.
When people it's fascinating to me though, the financial thing, and you obviously get quite upset about people saying it was a financial decision. But the way that I see it from the outside is that a financial decision for you is also about looking after your family. Because if you've grown up in a situation where you didn't have a heap. I'd imagine that part of the motivation for you is looking after your mum and your sister and your family in the long run. Is that fair?
Yeah? Even when I got my first bloody page as an eighteen year old and I was playing for the Giants, I gave half of it to month for me to get my contract in be sorted. I've not only set myself up for life half a footy, but I'm setting my family up as well. So like you said, you know, growing up with not much is a driving factor for me because it means I can support my family as well. Like the money, Like my contract's not just for me.
Like if I could put my mum and sis's name on the contract, I would, you know what I mean, I'd get them to sign it as well.
But you've bought your sister a house, is that right?
Yeah? So I bought my sister a house in Aubury. Yeah so in Thiguna. Well it was actually quite crazy because I've bought the house, but I never saw the house and my sister I said, go find a house that you want. You know, I've saved up me money. I'm ready to buy a family house now for you guys, And she went and found one and then went through bought it and everything. They moved in, and it would have been maybe six months to a year twelve that
I actually finally saw it. I saw it through FaceTime with the kids and everything like that, but once I showed up to the house, it was more surreal that, holy shit, this is out, like we finally we finally own a house, like our family finally owned something that's ours.
And it was one of the best feelings. And you know, my sister will always every time home, she will thank me for the house and all that kind of stuff, but I tell her that she doesn't need to thank me, like always say thank you to her for the way she's brought me up and been on my mass when I'm playing up and I'm actually still scared of her to this day, to be honest. So it was quite a fulfilling thing. But you know, I want to get to the stage where I got my sister a house.
I got my house, and I got Mum's house. So once that, my job's not done yet in terms of the family side of things and getting Mum and my sisters sordered. So I still got a bit to do.
You've made me to her up with us. It's my bad, but that's just the picture that you paint of walking into that house, and they're just the overwhelming sense of pride of I did this.
That's probably my biggest thing, perhaps moment in my life, is when I could buy a house for them. Like always sit down with Psmith and say, this is what I want your kids and my kids one day to grow up and know that they can own a house, they can own a car, they can do these things. And because growing up I never thought about own my own house or owning anything, to be honest, always just thought money. Oh yep, money I got in my pocket. That's fine, that's all I need. But now that I've
grown up like owning that it's mine. It changes your whole aspect of life. Really.
So my final question is you're still only twenty six, You're still young. If you heard your mum and sister talk about you, what would you want them to say? What would you, jeeves I want them to say about you and the boy they raise God?
Well, I know for a fact that they would start off with saying on a pain in the heart. They would absolutely one hundred percent start with that probably I don't listen to what I'm told from them. Then that they're always right. That's that's what you'll start. That's what they're exactly I'll say first, But I think the way Mum raised my sister and I, I think my mum would say the same thing about my sister and I, cause i'd say about my sister that she's very respectful person,
treats people the way she wants to be treated. She's the person that everyone wants to be around, and she's a very giving and caring person. And at the end of the day, you know, no matter what, whether we own our own house or we're living out of the back of the car or whatever, I think we will never change as people. And I've tried to keep myself grounded and tried to be the same person from when
I was growing up. You know, I went through a stage of being a little shit ed back home, but then you know, i'd come back to being humble and trying to be a person that everyone can get along with and being respectful. So hopefully they'd say all that, but they'd definitely let you know that I don't listen to them very very often, and that that my mum always says, all right, go do what you do. But when you come back crying and saying that I'm right, I'm gonna it's gonna be satisfying, you know.
So, So for mum listening right now, is she right?
I don't know if I but she's most of the time, she's always right. I'll give her that. I'll say most of the time. I won't say every time. I'll give her most of the time. But my sister, like I said, we're pretty much the same person, and there's six years between us, but people would think that we're the same person.
Really so, except she's a bit scarier.
Yeah, she's definitely. She's definitely a bit scarier. She's definitely the more. If she tells you she's gonna fight, you put the gloves on because you're gonna get into a fight with her. Really so.
But yeah, Zachie, thank you so much. I really do appreciate your honesty, your insight. I hope it helps a lot of people listening to understand you a bit better, understand culture a bit better, and hopefully have their own conversations about it. So I really appreciate you coming.
On nah, I loved it. It's good chat. Thanks Nis time.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking. If this chat has been triggering for you, please ask for help. Lifeline and Beyond Blue are just a couple of places you can go if you want to get in touch at ordinarily Underscore Speaking on Instagram or at narrowly Underscore Meadows on Twitter. If you like the track, It's Woody Pitney, check him out. A new episode will drop on Wednesday.
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