Ordinarily Speaking, you see a two hundred and forty three game veteran, four time champion of the Perth Wildcats who you don't see sub abuse, domestic violence, and an adult without a childhood time.
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking. I'm narrowly meadows. Today's guest is Greg Higher. Greg is a recently retired champion of the National Basketball League, having won four titles with the Perth Wildcats. What he has achieved is astonishing given what he has overcome in life. A self described troubled team, Greg was going down a destructive path but managed to turn his life around. This is a story of unbelievable resilience as Greg explores what it
means to be a man. Please know this chat discusses some very serious issues. If it is triggering for you, please know there is help out there beyond blue dot org, dot AU, Lifeline one three, double one, one four or one eight hundred, respect I just a couple of places you can go. I thank Greg for his candor and I hope you enjoyed the chat. Well, thanks for joining me on your podcast, Greg. I wanted to start by asking you, in the broader context of your life. What has basketball meant to you?
I think it's everything really from my livelihood now with raising two beautiful children of my amazing wife. Basketball was a thing that brought us together in a weird way, like we were in the same grassroots organization. It's made me who I am in terms of what I do now off the court. Without the profile of a purf Walkeets player, full time NBL champion, I don't think would be in a position to be able to deliver the workshops that we're doing now in Western Australia. And I
think it's as a troubled team. As an adolescent, basketball was that sort of sanctuary as a sixteen seventeen year old kid really struggling with life. That was that one thing that was constant in a weird way at that time. As a sixteen year old kid, I didn't really look at it going oh, basketball was going to teach me these valuable life lessons in terms of how to deal with plenty of challenges in your life. But I knew
that one thing was always going to remain constant. I was going to have a coach that cared for me. I had some peers that would Jerry Thing in their power to make sure that I was okay, and then I was able to get on the court and escape for whatever that time was. Knowing that I had an hour an hour and a half that whatever was going on in my life, you know, I could just focus on the game of basketball, something that I love doing.
And I think, moving past, you know, down the track ten years later, that remained constant whilst there was maybe things happening around my life. I think that sort of dictated the way I played. Quite emotional, maybe a bit aggressive at times, definitely aggressive, but yeah, it was that moment that I could get on the court and put it everything that was happening in my life on the court as well.
I spoke to your brother in law and best mate and best man, Brad Robbins, and it's interesting that you just said it that way because he said, as your teammate at the Perth Wildcats, it was every rebound, every loose ball was actually almost you saying I'm not going to end up like that.
That's not going to be me.
Is that a fair assessment?
Yeah? I think I had this massive chip on my shoulder my whole career, just even the standpoint of when I was a development player. There was no even coming up from WI. I was cut like and it's not that Michael Jordan, absolutely no doubt, like high school career and then come back, and I would have loved the salary. But I remember starting and I thought I'd be given a gig and then getting my first professional contract. It was six thousand dollars for the season worked out being
three dollars twenty an hour. But I loved it. I love that environment, but it was that no one expected it. I felt like every opportunity was for me to stake a claim. It wasn't about me getting more minutes. It was about me keeping my spot on the team. And even six years later vice captain, I still felt like every single game was an opportunity to prove myself.
And was that symbolic of how you were brought up as well and representative of that the way you played.
Yeah, I think so. My style wasn't pretty like I can say that, And you know I had a few moments now retired Matt Neilson, huge mentor of mine. You know, once you retire and you have those moments where you sitting down and you share a few red wines or you know, sitting on the boat, you know mad Mondays, and you have that reflection, those real special pieces, and you sort of look back at those games where not only did they change the game, they sort of changed
the season. You know. Then there's a few things I look back at. One game, I was literally I slept for two hours over two days, like I was so sick, Like I remember the only food that I could eat. I was staying at a Melbourne hotel. I ate these giant chocolate freckles to cost twelve dollars fifty play room service. But yeah, and I had no sleep, I had no energy. I remembered like thinking I just can't, like there's no way I can play.
And I got on stomach barg Yeah.
It was like I don't know what it was. And yeah, I literally like slept. I finally got sleep like thirty minutes before we left, and I was like said to dam I just get me up and I'll have a shower and I'll get to the game. And still like I was like just couldn't move. And I went through my Sammy return. I hit three threes as soon as I got on the core, broke the game open. And that was like this, we sort of separate ourselves throughout
the pack. You know, on the eve of trying to make the playoffs, We're down by eight points against Adelaide my last season, where I had announced my retirement and I'm about to get a screen. I see Harry Frowling, a youngster from Adelaide thirty six's and he's setting the screen and I was actually livid that I hadn't been given the court time to get on the court, and
I literally was just like screwed. There's a moment in this game that we could you know, I can run with this and I can set the tone and just sort of be like, you know, I'm not going to back down. I'm going to sort of make a statement We're not taking any shit. And I did it, and in doing so, I smashed my ac joint. You know, for the last eight weeks of my career, I was getting jabs time. I'm still struggling with it now, like
before games, just to be able to play. But it was that moment where I just ran through Harry, then ran through Harry again, and the crowd got up off their feet. Things would going on berserk, and we ran with it. We changed our seats and we stealed a playoff spot and we end up winning a championship. And
there's those moments that they're not pretty. Everything was hard, Like I look at back at and I think that's why I appreciate you know, every single person, and by us yourself, Like what's those moments in your life that he cherishes, the things that you work so extremely hard for that you never really were expected to achieve. And I think that's been my life. I look back as a youngster, I couldn't dribble basketball, like I literally had to go see a specialists because I had poor hand
eye coordination. They might say I still have poor hand ole coordination as a professional athlete, but like even then, I remembered like I had to go these classes in a random place and morlly it was like you go upstairs. It was a warehouse and they would throw me the ball and I still remember vividly now like they would throw me the ball, the ball drop, I'd clap and that was me. Like this intensive course for six months, Like that was me?
How old were I was.
Like yeah, literally four or five? Like yeah, And so even for two years I kept going like to what that is my motor skills were so underdeveloped, Like I mean I look at my two children now and my little fellow's going around and shooting, and you know I look at other kids like they're riding bikes. Yeah, my
motor skills were so poor. It was like a point where they were like okay, my parents are like yeah, they've identified this, and being my mum being Eastern European, it's still not even like that was like you know that scope, what where do you go out and see support? So it was just randomly like a doctor's like, yeah, I think he's a bit behind. And it's bizarre that that's in the in the app. That was my makeshift.
Like I played professional sports for ten years when I couldn't even really catch a ball at a young as a young kid.
So let's go back to the beginning. We call you Greg High, but that's not actually your name, is it.
Yeah, so if you spoke to Brad Robins, I'm sure you would have loved this. Yeah, so my name's Gergelay High and one more time, Gerglay Higher. Now in Hungarian it's Gergay And obviously you can expect that when you're in primary school. Primarily like kids ruthless and so obviously say there there's two words, and obviously we're progressive as a community. But people are like are just like saying
that all the time, or I would get scared. You know, the Royal Corps first day and it's like, you know, h's in the middle of the names and they're coming. I would like put up my hand like, yeah, that's me before my name's even being announced, because like I knew they would, yeah, wouldn't.
Just reflecting on it. It's like you've got a school.
I know. And it's even now like I'll get out my license and people were like, oh, like something and they'll look at me and then like they're like, I'm like, yeah, it's my real name. I'm Hungarian. So yeah, quite quite interesting. Greg, It's just like this Aussie like, yeah, no worries, but yeah, that was going up. Was a bit unique, that's for sure.
Your parents were illegal immigrants.
Crazy story. They immigrated from Hungary. Obviously back then it was a case of you know, there wasn't the come in here visa laws like whatever. It was literally process they want to leave the country. They were still reeling from World War two, the effects like everything, you know, the country was so behind the times and they sort of said, all right, here's a deal. Immigrant to Canada, you'll be fine, or immigrate to Perth and Australia. Basically
similar situations were in Perth. You'll just have to stay in a community for a month where basically all immigrants will come across, which was the KGB which is known as Condola, Grouine and Bouga. And so that was me. I'm a proud KGB boy and it was the best time of my life because you can imagine there were
so many kids in the same similar situation. My mum's job was a babysitter, Like I literally remember being in this home in Balga, massive home, and the brutal thing was was like we would have all these families and then a month they would just move on. So I'd have a best mate for a week and then there'll be another new lot of kids and whatever it may be. But I didn't know the circumstances until being on a road trip and so my very first year I was
getting on the road quite a bit. We didn't We suffered a few injuries and Matt Knight unfortunately suffers a few concussions and got knocked out one game and I'm in. I got brought up to Sydney as an injury replacement, and literally yeah at those times, like as a developed player, the only good thing about getting on the road was obviously being part of the team. But I got paid an extra one thousand dollars. My salary was six grand, so like you're.
Like, chicken Den, we're rolling here.
So yes, I got there and Maddie gets knocked out like the second quarter, and it was the first game of a three game road trip, and I just went, oh, no, Like they're going to ask me and I don't have my passport, and their professional athlete old standards like just be ready for everything, be ready for the unexpected, and literally as certain if the game gets done or beverage taps me. Is like, mate, we're going to bring you to New Zealand and then Ilwarra. So first thing, he's like,
you know, I'm I thinking there's an extra two grand. Awesome, But then he's like, do you have your passport? And I'm like nah, So I'm trying to get my passport arranged. They're literally gonna fly someone to bring it in the morning, like drop it off and then find New Zealand. So I was stuck in Sydney. I went to the embassy. The very first few things I said, idea of birth certificate, perfect, yep, got that, and then they go, do you have your
your parents' citizenship papers? And so I was like yeah, awesome. So I called my mom up and she's literally like, yeah, like I've got your birth certificate, but I don't have any citizenship papers. And I was like what do you mean and she's like, literally, yeah, we were legal immigrants. And I was like, you are joking?
And how old were you when you found that out?
Twenty three twenty four?
Wow?
Yeah, And I was just like okay, I don't know if I should now disclosing up. My mom doesn't get deported, but you know, but like I yeah, and I for a moment there, I was like, holy crap, like that's so bizarre, like that had sort of happened.
And then was eye opening for you.
Oh absolutely, because I like, and Mum always said, but Mum's so humble, obviously knew the scope. But I remember even like when mum got her first car, like and it was that very traditional like Eastern Europeans mums are doing this, you know, like they're cooking, cleaning providers, you know, like they're doing all that sort of stuff, whereas you know, Dad comes in here and food's got to be on the table and all that sort of stuff. And Mum
would work. I remember, like her first car had no indicators, so she would be like hand outside the car and then if I'm in the front seat, would ask me to like put out a hand, and I'm like, but I think it's the best thing in the world. But she'd and of it, like she because she didn't have cyiszenship papers, she couldn't get her license for years, like
so she was driving illegally. Like she learned English from Jehovah's witnesses, Like she didn't know a lick of English, and it was a case of like people knocking the door, Hey, how a she would like get those words and then like pick up and obviously then she would you go around, but those just entry statements are going to shops or like she would go to the shops to then like find out what the checkout operator is saying, so then she can understand or oh, here's milk, oh milk, you know,
like here's that, so like it was crazy like and so yeah, end up getting the passport, but that was just that like eye opening experience, like and I think, how yeah, my mum never complains like it's just like this unbelievable woman, and I think it's it's been ingrained in me as well as like to do that, like just you know, expectations like she she's still she still works now. Most beautiful, selfless human being in the world, most gentle soul, Yeah, pretty special.
Do you speak any Hungarian?
I do a little bit. That The word I always and I know this from a young age was an yatzi kosh loveda which is I played basketball, and so I knew that was like my go to and hot void and is how are you and I spend a little bit of time there. It's something I actually would love to do. I'm not the intellect, so I don't. I struggle with the English language a let alone trying to adopt the Hungarian language as well. So but yeah,
I do. And that was the thing growing up my family, My brother and my mom would speak it all the time, like and especially if like I'd done something wrong, so all I'd hear is gogee, come up, And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I've done something. I'm in trouble here. It's a it's a unique language.
So you were born in Australia, right, I was born? When did they move? It mustn't have been that.
It was literally, well when I'm nineteen eighty seven to twenty, so that it was nineteen eighty six, like I think you're like, yeah, I think my mum.
So you were on the way yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was like which I was born in a pm age or Subiaco. Yeah, brother was five years so yeah, so I was born here. Yeah, they made the move basically.
Then Wow, your life could have been different.
Oh yeah, ridiculous.
Did your brother have any early memories of what Hungary was like at the time.
Yeah, not particularly, Like they've gone back a little bit and obviously we've got all of our family members and a few of them have come out here. You know, when you go to school as a young kid like you or western eis and this is the thing, Like I mean, if you look at my photos, we were so like stuck out, like I remember my mum. Yeah, Like my very first photos is a year one. I was in a suit, like I was in an all white,
like smiling from from ear to ear. But I was in in like a white shirt, white suit, white pants, and there's like our classroom photos and obviously pretty diverse sort of class, but like there's just me a suit and then there's just kids in te's you know, and like you know, like you see that like people bring in like I brought in full traditional Hungary and gulash
for like you know, like introduction to country days. And but that was the thing Mum was, you know, never like we were so different like it was and obviously as time Mom still went, but it.
Was like did you feel different at the time?
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, Like I mean I look at them and then even like haircuts and obviously with the name, and at a time, like I embrace it, like I always love being different. But then it's like sometimes, as I said before, kids are vicious and they're ruthless, and so you know, you have that Ozzie mentality and like you know, I would go to the point where I went like overboard. Obviously I have a lot of pride and playing for Australia that I did last year and
those sort of experiences because it gave the life. But to the point where then Australian tatoo like some of that sort of anger, Yeah, like all that sort of stuff.
You got made in Australia tattoo.
No, I definitely don't. I'm thank god I've got one of my best mates with the Southern Cross Stars and I hope led him all the time, like how much do you regret that? Never see you without your shirt on? So yeah, but yeah, it is it will you know? Growing up it was something that I definitely in that way wish I could have maybe owned a little bit more and embraced Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely sort.
Of aware, I guess exactly.
So your mum has she told you any story? Have you ever asked her about what life was like for her before she got to Australia.
In a way, it was just you know, you're looking at it from that Cold War and that Eastern European sentiment where poverty was huge, like, and she comes from a massive family. She had a relative that had an intellectual disability, so she would look after them and the family go along, and unfortunately her dad turned to alcohol early in the peace just because he was trying to provide for so much, was dealing with some mental health conditions and in a weird way, like she didn't really
have a strong connection to her mum. She loved the dad. She always used to say, emotional here, but I reminded a lot of her dad, gentle, tall guy that wasn't yeah it wasn't you know. You'd see this polarizing figure and go, oh, you know, he's just going to be this real dominant guy. So she used to always say it me like, you always reminded me of my father, and then he eds to be tough because she obviously I didn't never got to meet any of my grandparents
by on my father's side. But it was, yeah, pretty brutal think like even a you know, this massive role model a life basically like in her words, in a weird way, took his own life not at one moment, but it turned to alcohol to then you know obviously did that and that was pretty brutal. So thinking of that environment, especially when my mom grew up, and how she would have tried to take ownership of all responsibilities in her life and so I know that I guess
that's why she still provides now. It's ridiculous what my mum tries to do, even at her age. She's actually looks after my brother's child at the moment, and my mom's yeah sixty odd, you know, because he's in a position to do that at the moment. And that's ridiculous, Like I say to him, like she should be enjoying the fine points of license. She's actually trying to. Yeah, I guess raise a child like at that age when
she should be embracing grandchildren. But that's just my mom, and she never complains, and that's pretty Yeah, it's just amazing to think of woman like that.
You sound like you're pretty damn proud of your mom.
Oh yeah, absolutely, I think you know. That's the one massive regret in my life now, to be honest, and I look at it all the time, is I don't tell my mom how much that how much of an influence I do. I do share what she's done for me. But yeah, yeah, she's an unbelievable human being, that's for sure.
So you didn't have it easy either early days your childhood. Tell me a bit about what it was like being you as a kid.
Yeah, I mean it's funny because you say it's not easy, but then it's and I keep going back, it's who I am as a As a young kid, you know, you're trying to find your identity, identity, and you're looking for a role model, and I didn't have that. My parents split up at an early age, officially, but they
were separated for some time. And so when it was that pivotal piece in life, that twelve or thirteen year old age group, Mum would work away for sometimes three to four months or should do like a fly and flight at Rossaware. She would look after that and this Danish royalty whoever it was, and she'd work there and then Mum would.
Come in actually as a nanny time.
Yeah basically, but she this lady was incapable of doing any really bodily function. But I would actually love to find out who she was. She owns ships and stuff like it. But anyway, yeah, she Mum would go sometimes in part of that because she was so successful. They would go to Europe for three four months. I'd go to Africa for three four months and so Mum would be there. And so growing up it was just my brother and I and we used to live in this
home in Hillary's. You know, looking back now, it was a really destructive time because I just would never go to school. My brother was eighteen, I was thirteen.
So he was effectively guarded.
Yeah yeah, yeah, and so and at that station in his life he was getting into drugs and alcohol. You know. We would have people over all the time. So that was my life. I would miss school all the time, and because again my mum was like very trustworth like sort of trusting of us, Like even when she would come back and get a report card and be like, Greg's got seventy four half day absence, shit, but what
is that, I'm like, oh, it's NAT's incorrect. I was sleeping on ovals like at times because I had these massive nights and I was so ashamed and embarrassed to go home and I knew Mum would be home. So then like I remember one time sleeping at an oval and sprinklers wake up some of my bed. And because I was tall, like i'd go out for my brother in night clubs.
You know, and at what sort of age.
Fifteen sixteen, it was stupid, absolutely stupid, And I'd go home and Mum would like, go know, but she'd go just have a shower and make sure like I was okay, putting the right things in place, But she could control it like in a way like and I don't have any resentment in that way, and I don't, and no one could say, well, why did she not step in?
Like she needed to provide for the family, like that was, yeah, she had to, and she just didn't see the effects of that, and so I could have gone spiring out of control. There's there's absolutely no doubt about that. Yeah, Like I was doing all sorts of drugs like in that way.
And drugs were you taking.
Like I mean marijuana was like an easy one, but ecstasy, cocaine, like yeah, Like it was sort of just like I'm seeing my brother some when I look up to you know, that's who I wanted to be. He would sell drugs. We would reap the rewards. I would get presents, you know why, whatever you want, I'd have a chain or xbox, you know, all this sort of stuff. But then the other side comes with it. Well you're not ready, like as a young kid, like you know, you don't know
what that is. You're just seeing your idol. So I'm looking at that and then going okay, well yeah who cares, Like that's a really that's a good way of life. Let's embrace it. But then randomly the chain that I get goes missing, you know, or the Xbox that was just PlayStation goes missing, you know, or police come in the house, and then you're like, well, what's going on is because well, yeah, there's no drugs are being sold, so he's taken it back off and sold them, but
in a bad way as well. Was like my mates, their parents then would start going, let's see, like I wasn't the person that was good to hang around with, start removing friends around from my circle, or hey, he's not a good person to hang around with, or even come into a house and say like, you know, Greg's a horrible person, Like you know, that was tough, like absolutely, because I was just like I wasn't a bad kid,
Like I wasn't a violent kid. I wasn't disrespectful, you know, like I was just that that way of living that just seemed natural to me at that time. Basketball was that thing. It was at that stage it was this real critical piece in my life where I wasn't picking up that I was having destructive behavior in terms of my own life, and I had a coach and teacher that basically was like, what do you want to do? Like, you know, do you want to play bart you want
to take it seriously? Names Benettridge and literally from that day, like I fell asleep in physical education class, like because of what I was doing on the weekend. And he was like, and that's why I have such amount and respect for teachers because he saw that and it was like, that's not like normal behavior, Like that's his favorite Class's the only class I thrived in, you know, it was fyzed. And so he's like, okay, you're coming to school. You know, I'm going to get you on this. I was at
that time, I think year nine or ten. So he was like, you're going on this basketball tool with me with all the year elevens and twelves, like I was the only kid. Yeah, you're going to fundraise, You're going to sell chocolates, you know, like all this sort of stuff, and just installed that sort of work ethic. And then I guess the floodgates open. I saw like, okay, maybe I could do something about basketball, you know, and then that's when all this other stuff will go to college.
You actually got to go attend school. And yeah, it was that moment where you're talking of the fork in the road. Yeah, that was that moment, falling asleep in class pretty much. Yeah. Absolutely.
Did you ever get into trouble with the police when you're in.
Yeah, yeah, I yeah, I actually remember this moment. It was like a blue light disco and yeah, talking about our age now, but I remember just being an absolute belter, like going our brother's house lived in junele up and smoking weed, drinking alcohol. We're all going to like the blue light light later, like I was the only underage thing that you could go to. The other people that I was drinking with, yeah, they were like and then no, posy shouldn't to be able to stand, like they put it.
I remember getting into a room and my mate was like literally on a portable bed or whatever and was like couldn't speak, you know, and that was like far out, Like did I do that? If I didn't bring him to my brother's house, that never would have happened. You know. That was pretty frightening. I can damage myself, but I
can't get mates involved, you know. And at that time as well, you please don't really and turn their own like I'm not disputing that, but they were like your scum of the earth, you know, like this is all because of you. Like that was that, you know, like I'm a young kid. My mum was away, so I couldn't call anyone. My brother's not picking up the phone, you know, so I'm literally there till the very end, and I think someone In the end, I think my mum had got like I had to come back in
from work. But it was that like moment where they were pretty ruthless, Like you know, I just remember being like interrogate, like what you know, what are you doing? You know, like thinking I felt like a criminal, sat there just going like what is going on? Like I literally at the start was trying to hook up with some chick only an hour ago to really like this going. Now I'm in a room with a guy that can't even speak, and police.
Are like, you know, interrogating.
Yeah, Like it was pretty daunting.
How often were you using?
Oh, oh, weekly, easily? Easily. My mum would work four days a week, so on those weeks, like if I'm staying at my brother's house, that's that's when I'm going on drugs, whether it's smoking weed or I'd be drinking all the time every weekend.
How early did you start, oh, fourteen?
Maybe, yeah, even yeah, I'd say fourteen, I don't know what year, but like near nine's and tens and then like I'm going out. I never enjoyed childhood, you know, like I grew up way too quick. Like I remembered like playing in an in an under eighteen nationals and then flying in, coming in and then going to a nightclub that night and then taking a pill, whereas like all these other kids, like you know, they're going home and getting picked up by their parents, you know, like
they hadn't been with their family for a week. And I was even getting asked for ID like because I remember being in the line and just being taller than everyone and then I'd get in and then do that and that was my way of living. Like yeah, looking back, it's like I wish I had a childhood, Like maybe that's why I'm such a big kid. I missed that in life.
You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Greg Heiher. When you were littler. You've written before about the fact that there was violence in your home. What sort of stuff happened?
Yeah, again, looking at that traditional Eastern European parenting styles instead of that do something wrong, you're going to get hit. You know, or grab your arm and rip you through here. And then even I remember playing basketball, It's lucky enough I didn't hate the sport because like it was an intimidating environment to be in. Like I remembered, my brother is way better than me at basketball. He's taller, more athletic, better, IQ had all the tools like he. I'll say this,
he's a smarter guy. Used to go to PIAC, you know, until actually advanced all this sort of stuff. And it's his circumstances on his own accord that's hurt him in the long run. And for me, my recollection of playing Baskett a young age, it was going to local basketball courts, local schools and seeing like my brother and my dad play one on one and just nothing fun from it. It's a hard slog like every drill is like yours.
It's a workout, like every single and that was me as a young kid, Like there was never once where I could just go around and shoot, like you cannot just hang out. Every single time I was playing on the basketball court was to get better, and that obviously instilled work ethic, but that was me and so even as as a young kid like that was at home there was no disobedience, messing like yeah, absolutely, there was love, but it was Yeah, I got taught lessons, you know,
like stupid lessons as well. If you're not going to eat spaghetti until you eat it, you're going to set the dinner table till ten o'clock at night, and that would happen, you know, like to the point where I'm falling asleep, like at the dinner table, like that sort of stuff, that parenting style. Yeah, it was tough. It's yeah, it was, you know, it doesn't it's not stuff. I look back with fondness and happiness and go, oh, this
is the best time of my life. There's obviously a lot of a lot of great things and they stand out more vividly because yeah, it was tough.
Were you scared of your dad?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Welso I don't think he would have never heard an individual like you know, and that never went too far. Yeah, if there was fear, like he'd cast fear in your eyes, knowing if you had messed up like that was Yeah, you're going to get your ass kicked if you if you stepped over the line.
You have a look in your face right now that you can almost see he's fast.
Oh yeah, yeah, I spoke. I think it's you know, I look at everything happens for a reason. And I remember yelling at my son a few months ago, like he was a few brutal nights of sleep and really really struggling and just frustration. I just sort of like venting a little bit, no physical nature, just more you know, yeah, as you do. And I went back into the room and I just like was crying like for hours, and U pont hours and I could like I felt sick to my stomach, like.
Just because you felt you lost, just because.
I never wanted to be that guy, you know, like I never wanted to have that. I never wanted my son to ever look at me like with the fear that I ever had, you know, like that is something I never wanted. Like and even now there's been times like just parenting, normal stuff. But I remember, like my daughter and I'm sitting there and she's like, I don't want dad to be angry, and like that kills me, Like it kills me because like I know how much like I hate it, Like that's not me, and.
It takes you back.
Fa yeah, like yeah, they're brutal times like thinking about that like that scope.
Yeah, did you how old are you when your dad left?
Left the numerous times, but like from that thirteen to seventeen, like I really barely had contact, Like he was over in Canada, had a relationship there, and then the ould sort of speak to him and then sort of came back in my life fifteenth but again also inconsistent. I really don't know if there was a patch there. Well, yeah, he was there every single day. Unfortunately.
How do you feel about him now?
Yeah, a bunch of mixed emotions. Definitely the level of resentment. I think that's obvious grateful in a way, in a weird way because of who I am, Like I am proud of of who I am, not just yeah, obviously of the full time NBL champion, but of the human
being like the prayerent and the husband. And that's obviously something I'm more proud about because it's something I don't want to be like, you know, don't get me wrong, Don't get me wrong, there's there's some some some things in that you take from The good is not this monster, but the things that that he displayed I didn't like. I've obviously put not put in my life, but there's
obviously a level of absence. It's just so murky because I don't have I don't have this relationship with my father, and there's a part of me that goes, you know, do I want my children to meet their grand their granddad?
You know, I'm such a family man, like with my with my with my wife's family, Like, you know, I look at that, like just went to Christmas Carols, my daughters, you know, sitting on the lap of my grand of her grandmom, you know, and the joy in their face is when their granddad comes home from work and like literally not just my kids, but all the other siblings as well, they just run to him. And I like look at that, like I can't wait, you know, like
to be that guy. So for part of me, I feel sorry for him that he doesn't have that in his life, Like he's missing that because you would have to be.
Would you like to reconcile with him? Or is that ship sailed?
I don't know nearly. I really don't know. There's been moments, but I'm not going to make an effort in that in that manner, Look, I'm not a definitely don't hate the man there's obviously I always love. Yeah, it's it's a case of if someone wants something, they'll do it. The same do with my brother. He's had so many chances in his life to change the way his life is. If you want to, if you can help a person as much as they want, but if they don't want
to be helped, then there you go, you know. And so it's a similar boat. You know. I would never I don't have that much hate in my life to go, Nah, I'll completely remove you because at the end of the day, it's not about me. I dread the day they asked why do I never see where's your dad to my children? That hurts? Like that hurts? And what do I say? I'll be honest, you know, this is the reasons why. And that's tough like us that that that that hurts.
What's your relationship like with your brother?
Yeah, and that's such a tough one now because you know, as a you only want to help. But it's so far gone now. I literally and I talk about hope so much now, about mental health and having hope. I've lost hope because he's been given so many chances to change his life. I don't know and if he, if he listens to this, he would never there would not be a point of him go. He'd say, to screw you. You've got all the chances. You're a professional athlete. You know,
you were lucky enough. Dad preferred you, Mum gave you all these chances. That's just the way it's been. But at some point you've got to then take responsibility of your own life, you know. And the same similar situation, i'd there'd be nothing more that I would love to be able to have this family. That would be like he's he's here's your uncle, you know, But I wouldn't have the confidence to know if I leave him in
my own house, that's something want to go missing. And when you become a father and a husband, no longer do you think about yourself. You worry about the others in your life and how impacted and how you can't hide them away from anything. You know, if there's a confrontation, I can walk away or you know I can do that. I can't hide my children. Well, I can't hide my wife, you know. And they're things in my life that are the most important.
Has your wife met your brother?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, numerous times.
Have you ever sat down with him and told him.
Oh, yeah, so many times. Yeah, And it's tough because it's that, you know, as a brother, you sit there and you you don't want to, but there's that point where you just reach tipping point or your last straw, you know. Yeah, there's been many chimes.
And just can never get through.
Nah, exactly, I don't. It's that Nut doesn't accept that he's doing anything wrong or yeah, taken responsibility or the avenues. And I think it's because at the end of the day, my mom's love for her children. He always knows he's got a parachute, you know, if if something happens, he's got someone he can rely on. And that's the thing
at the end of the day. As bad as the sounds people might go, Wow, what a horrible human being, sometimes it's like that case of going you needed to spend some time in jail to see it, to be at rock bottom, to know what truly is, you know, and to go like I don't know what to do, and then completely change your life. But right now it's just sort of still floating. And unfortunately I worry that I will just see, you know, I'll be I get
a message. And there's no doubt I have fear every time I get a text message from my mum telling me that my brother's dead.
That's a lot.
Yeah, like every single like, yeah, I every single time I worry opening up that text message.
How did that's a that's a massive thing to live with. Becauld you clearly really love him?
Oh? Absolutely absolutely.
Has he been in jail?
Has he has spend some time but just days, you know, and then but that's the thing. We've got the best lawyers to get him out, you know. Like I've been at the point because of like I'm obviously a bit stronger, but to say to mine like I'm going to call the police, you know, I'm removing it, like he's got to go, and like, but how do you do that?
It's it's like it's just not a there's no winners, you know, like you don't just go oh cool, like and it's tough because I'm this professional athlete that's been very successful, that's earned a lot of money. It's like, well you should be helping everyone. You know.
It's easy for you to X y Z correct.
You know, Hey how about this, Oh you've always had a good you know, I've found out of a mental health organization with my brother that struggles with mental health conditions, and it's like, well, hold on, how does that make sense? Like you know that shouldn't be the case, like worry about your own backyard. Like it's tough. It's definitely tough, and sometimes you just feel weakless, like you just you go like I wish I could do it, but I
don't know what. Sometimes it's like I don't know what to do, Like there is every every avenue has been explored, and you just simply feel hopeless.
So is it drugs with him?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah yeah.
When you reflect on the person you were as a kid, now, how do you feel about that person?
I Everything in life that I've worked for has been like such like that grind and nothing was roses all. All I wanted in life was for someone to care about me. Like, so when I had a teacher, and it's weird, but people that you know, it's so easy for teachers when there's that like person that's disobedient and being boisterous and loud, they just go like, oh, that's typical. Great, Like and I was obviously like yearning for something. I was grasping, like I want some help and I don't
expect it, but you know what I mean. So then I would gravitate to somewhere that like they would care about me. And that was like the basketball coach, or I had a political and legal studies coach, a teacher, sorry, and I had a history teacher, and whilst didn't have an inclination to love that subject, it was the teacher, Like it was crazy to think even now I remembered, like there was this lot more historytician. She actually cared about me as a human, not as a student, and
that meant so much to me. So when you asked that, like, it's made me again, like you know, I have this gravitational pool to like trying to assist with people that are in less fortunate, you know, and being the position that I was in was in that regard was like you can give back to so much more, you know.
And that's fair to say. Why you're doing this today as well? Was that because by sharing your story it helps.
Yeah, And even there's like you know when you prepare for that. And I was thinking in the drive here and obviously listen to a few of the other episodes in like Horse and that natural you know, how are you going to approach that? And then as you speak, I'm like, yeah, there's some things that initially I felt
would I be reluctant to share that? But then I'm like, no, there's people in the same similar position, and for me, being vulnerable, being open, being honest, being authentic is is sharing stories is what we need and we need human connection.
If you had listened to a podcast like this when you were a kid, do you think it would have made a difference.
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. I wasn't expected to be as successful as what I am, Like there's no way, and like I get pissed off now and like people like still they talk about my career, you know, like oh yeah, you had great opportunities, or no one gives me the plaudits that I believe I deserve. It's because of the
young kid that was on a very dangerous path. So like in that essence, like even when I was a young like as a young development player, like I busted my ass and no one ever knew that, Like, no one was like why is he so? Why does he work so hard?
You only told your teammates about halfway through your Wildcat's career? Is that right?
But I don't even know the scope, like we don't as professional athletes get fully immersed in people's lives. And that was my responsibilit of understanding people and that I wanted to know their story, and we did this in my very last season, like what their why was? Because how can you expect people to hold each other accountable, hold standards, real, tear someone apart and then have a coffee later, But then you don't know the human being.
How do you expect people to give all their emotion, all their effort, sacrifice.
So much be there for you on the court as a teammatee.
Yeah, but then you don't even know if they've got siblings, or what their backstory is or what their motivation was. We got everyone to write down what their why was, and no one opened it up. We left it till the eve of the finals and we sat there outside of the Perforna in the car park and like Trev, he was like, I do you want to lead this? And I said no, I'll let you go. It's all you. Trev opened up his.
One big thing for a coach today.
Mate, unbelievable like rawness and I won't share his one but the most powerful thing he's ever done in his coaching career because we had a group there that was young, but like for him to just this bravado, strong, proud man which he is to like actually allow every single person within the team to see what his why is but then strip it down on these layers with no judgment was special for him to be vulnerable and that
moment of time was huge. Obviously loved it to have done it early and the peace, but it's what it's about, and that was me as a captain, was like to sit down and figure that out.
Your mental health? Did it ever suffer from what you went through?
Yeah? It's funny, yeah, because like whilst I was playing professional basketball, never at one point that I feel like, you know, I suffer from a mental health I was
never diagnosed with a mental health condition. But the more and more I have become immersed in this space in understanding it, yeah, Yeah, there's moments in my career that I look back and go like, holy shit, Like I would have loved to have like acknowledged at that time, even the way I still struggle with social media that sort of side to it, and how like our brutal that that really is and what that made that, how that made me feel, But then the other effects of how that impacted my play.
As people criticizing, Yeah, what kind of things.
Like you talk about the story like, as a development player, you're an underdog. Everyone loves you right, like you can't do any wrong. You hit a shot in layup and warm ups and hit a layup and people are like, Greg High is the future. And the following year you start getting some minutes W A guy, proud w A guy, and they're like, awesome, you have a few good games, yep, really good and even those games aren't that special, but people just the underdog awesome, let's let's embrace him. And
I end up being a starter. I get invited to a boomer camp. I'm playing good, but in one minutes aren't like this, you know, amazing thing whatever. And that changes as an impact because as your role grows, your expectations grow, obviously within yourself, but fans start going, oh, hold on, like is he as good as he is? Like all that, and then they start but that ends up being their fall guy. You know. Initially I got so consumed in a dangerous way, and that was to
my own accord and my own damaging behavior. But I remember seeing on Twitter and everyone's just sort of adding, like mentioning an awesome job, well done. But then that year or that shift was like people just like his shit, worst player should be sacked. And the thing was was like I could never understand the human like context.
Yeah, why somebody would want to say that to another person?
Yeah, I couldn't understand how we could be so hurtful, like and we could be so quick for judgment and being like he should be sacked or get rid of him. And I'm like, okay, what about their livelihoods? You know, Like I'm not saying that. I understand it's the results driven industry, but we just don't understand that give people a chance. We're just so quick to tear people down, but we're not we're not quick to celebrate success.
So how bad was it for you? Were you just sitting there scrollings?
I remember this is a moment, and it sort of really changed me. I remembered like, and I was sort of getting minutes and we're having a bit of a down year and we're playing towns with crocodiles, and I got brought in with like a minute left and got in, got found in this, two free throws got scored on, and then the last possession I came in and rotated on a guy that I definitely shouldn't have completely my
fault got scored on. They hit a game winning as a game winning shot time expired, and you always it's not only one possession. I'm like, I clearly lost this the game, like I can be honest, some fine of it.
I'm aware of it.
It was one, not one. It was like three four bad possessions and I had a shit game. So I'll cop that, like absolutely. But I remember sitting in the ice bath, being on my phone. The BRA just like came in and people that I was like had just seen in the members function like the week before, you know, like, and I'm like, this is so awkward, Like at night, like my wife's asleep and I can't. I can barely
sleep off the games anyway. I'm just so wide up, still scrolling, gone gone to sleep and then opening my phone and still scrolling. And it was just like this constant or then like seeing it. Some people save it and use it for motivation, but it actually directly hurt me. It's easy to say, we just don't look at it from that, Like, I remember my mum reading newspaper articles talking about me getting sacked and should call and be like, hey, I've got there's a job opportunity at City of June.
There's a youth support worker and I'm like, what are you talking about. She's like, oh, I saw this article saying you're potentially going to be fired. And I'm like, don't worry about that to then, you know, your wife, seeing that.
She's legitimately trying to.
My mum was just so like she honestly did. She was just like, oh, look, you've had a great run, well done, and I was just like cool, you know, but that consumed me and ended up having the best game maybe of my career, like at that point Double Double Back Backskin or Massive Game, and I put my phone away. I just put those things in place in my life to be like. It consumed me. There's no
denying it was. One of the catalysts of why I retired was that it consumed me so much that my energy and emotion was going to that sort of stuff that I couldn't control, maybe in an addictive way that I was worried so much about what people thought about me that I wasn't enjoying the game. And so when you asked about like that mental health conditions and in that regard, I look back and now go, did I really have a control on things? And yeah, is there a lot more to it that I can really focus on?
And you sort of alluded to it before, but I suppose when those sorts of things happen where it feels, even though it's a it's just inverticom as a basketball performance, that it feels that it's attached to your self worth.
Yeah, every game was like it was like running a marathon at some points as well. It's tough because like I retired in a manner like it and I still love the sport. And when I retired, it was like I really think give a fuck? And it was exhausting and that affected my relationships, Like yep, I was obviously a loving husband, my children, Like would they see me like I was exhausted? You know? Was I a little
bit more less impatient? And that sucks because like what that game as a young kid gave me so much and gave me the life I am at some point then was becoming a burden and that hurts. This really sucks. But like, I'm still playing basketball, and I have ambitions to try and play in the Conwarf games for three and three because I love that sort of side that I still have an opportunity to do that. It's a new element, new sport. Once that happens. Whether irrespective if
I play or not, I'll never play basketball again. I should round off my kids. Absolutely, I'll coach, but I won't even do local, which is pretty bad.
When I ask you the question, after everything that you've been through, When I ask you the question, what is a real man to you, how do you answer it?
Oh, it's a good one. Really. Look, I think for me, someone that's vulnerable. That's someone that's happy enough to show their emotion. It's someone that's as loving and is happy enough to tell someone all the time that they love them and to share that both verbally and physically. It's
taking the lead. It is that stereotype of being a provider for your family and being that guy that goes, yeah, hey, absolutely take the man to hell, but then taking the back seat too and just happy enough to sit on the wayside and you know, just enjoy life as patience. Man. It's just being comfortable with who you really are and embracing that. I think you know, as we as as as as men, we're expected too to be so proud and stoic and never to display emotion and to withdraw
and and not show compassion. And the other side is we're so to just tear each other down. Oh, I'll tell you apart makes it stronger, Like nah, god, no, you know, it's been so so often I've been able to share like these, these like real fine moments with some of my best mates, you know, like the Trevor Gleeson incident where he was able to share that. But why are we so reluctant to be open? What are we so hot? Like? What do we fear for of? And it's that fear of judgment like that that's it,
you know. And that's when you ask me, like, yeah, what what does a man represent? That's all those things?
Good answer.
Before I let you go.
I mean, I thank you so much for sharing your story because I always I get goosebumps every time I say this to somebody, But I think it does help kids coming through and even big.
Kids like us. Now you talk about blue light discos.
We've been around a while that you know, to share our own stories and be vulnerable. As you say, but that's exactly what you do through your charity Stitch in Time. So tell people listening how they can support your charity.
Yeah, absolutely, As you know, there's a few ways hit up stitch in Time, dot org, dot you, or obviously through all the social media platforms. If there's one piece of advice that I always like, try and leave people, and in that sentiment is that we are so much for people to reach out for support, but we need to think about how tough that really is. So many people are waiting for people to be reached out upon.
You know, I ask five closer you mates how they're doing and to actually show genuine care because like if I said to you Nearroly, he's struggling in that you're okay and we just have that human connection, I don't think things are going okay. And we kept talking for a little bit and I asked, have you considered taking your own life? And you said yes. The one thing you would do, respective of my education level, is I would place every out of any in my life to
know that you would be okay. Like I'd go seek out accounts, I talk to your parents, talk to your partner, talk to a psychologist. You'd get the experts, but you'd do that because we value human life, but we're so fearful of asking for that question for that reason. To hear that, because you'd go, I don't really know what
to do. I would encourage everyone to be an advocate for mental health, like you don't need a title, and if we truly want to play any points on it, every single person needs to play a priority on it.
Thank you very much for everything you shared today. It's pretty damn inspiring and four time MBO champion more than two hundred games. As you said, your mum must be pretty proud at the end of the day.
She is. I'll tell you one thing that's always really sentimental, and it was funny. I was just cleaning up my offices. My mum amazing to think person in speaking unless she writes. She writes all the time. From when I was playing, Mum would write these like little essays just how proud she was of me, and yeah, there's always special and I was looking for on the other day and she had a few tears, just like how how lucky I
am obviously had it in my life. But how special was for her to share those moments that mean as well awesome.
Well done, Thanks for love soon time.
Once again, thank you to Greg for sharing his story. Please remember if this chat was triggering for you, or there is someone you know who may need help, Beyond Blue dot org, dot AU, Lifeline one three, one, one one four or one eight hundred respect are just a couple of places you can go. This is the final episode for season two of Ordinarily Speaking. I want to thank each and every one of you who have reached out along the way and shared your stories with me.
You're the reason I started this podcast and why each and every sportsperson has agreed to come on the show and share their story to try and help people listening.
If you want to.
Get in touch at Ordinarily Underscore Speaking on Instagram or at Narrowly Underscore Meadows on Twitter. And if you've enjoyed the series, please tell your nights. Thanks again,