Ordinarily Speaking, carefree on the outside character, but I was living two lives, felt like I was a fraud on the inside. I was really struggling, and I was at a point where I was at my wits ends with my football in my life at the time.
Tim, Hello, and welcome to Ordinarily Speaking, a brand new sports podcast that celebrates resilience and tells the human stories behind the athletes you know from AFAR. My name is Narrowly Meadows, and my guest today is a man by the name of Adam Challaw. He is an AFL star playing for the Collingwood Football Club, but it has taken him so many years to work out his footy does not define him. Now. This chat covers some pretty heavy topics, so if you're a parent, you might want to listen
to it before your kids do. And if you are struggling, please ask for help. Lifeline dot org, dot au and beyond Blue just a couple of places that you can go. I hope you enjoyed the chat. Oh, thanks so much for spending some time with me. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
I've always found you a really interesting person to interview because as a journalist, you know, often when you ask people hard questions, they get defensive. That's, you know, human nature to do that. Whereas with you, over the years, every time I've interviewed you, I almost feel like I have to talk you back because you're so damn hard on yourself. Why is it so?
I think Bucks can vouch for that because a lot of the times when we're talking about football, I tend to give away too much with the game plan whatnot. But no, I guess I'm pretty open, pretty honest with everything.
I know. The last twelve months of have been. Wow, it's been interesting, to say the least, because firstly with that documentary that come out on the twenty eighteen season and obviously opened up a little bit about my own battles and yeah, a little bit that I've gone through and you know, we'll probably always go through because you can't, you know, you sort of I feel like you're sort
of born with that. I mean, you can develop anxiety and worry and stress and whatever it is over time, but I think, you know, with might bring and my experiences in life, I was sort of, yeah, I was sort of born into that, and yeah, I still have my moments and whatnot, But I've well and truly found a good balance in my life now with my support staff and the people around me, the footy club, my partner, Kimmy, just everyone, just things that I've put into place that
help me. And like I said, there's no way, there's no way with that support with with Kimmy, without MAXI without Bucks, without Jackie.
Bucks is obviously the coach. Max is at the club helping out Yes, Yes, and.
Yours Jackie, who started as my psych but is now one of my closest friends. She's she's almost like a big sister to me. And yeah, just that just the love, support to help, the care I can keep going with words that they've showed me and given me and helped this that to this day is something I've just been incredible grateful for for the rest of my life.
Born into anxiety, What does that mean?
I think with my upbringing, so with it, I've always had it. I've always had it because of you know how I was not raised because my mom, my mum was a single mum. My stepdad he's been around since I've was born pretty much. So my dad, my biological dad who left my mom when my mom was Oh. I think she hadn't given birth yet or whatever it was, and so I don't know my biological dad and what's
that like. Yeah, it was pretty tough because everyone talks about, you know, their parents, and I do say to my parents because my mum has been with my stepdad, who is the dad of my younger brother and sister. He was always my dad. But not to have my biological dad and to sort of know that, and I sort
of had to do things on my own. I didn't have that, you know, the dad at the back, you know, just the cliche stuff, the things people with regular families who you know, haven't had to split up families take for granted. Those people can sort of take that for granted. Families like that because you know, they're used to it, They used to having cousins and whatever. I never had that.
We didn't have that. It was just myself, my mom when I was young, my older brother who has a different dad too, So it was just all kind of craziness growing up. We grew up in a ministry house. I was born into a ministry house where which is obviously where the government pays for the house. We don't pay for it. You know. There was a number of times. And I know my Mum doesn't mind me talking about whatever I talk about because we're not like we were when I was growing up.
And I think it's important.
I think it is.
Yeah, help other kids out there exactly, and to.
Make it, I guess, and achieve something that I always wanted to achieve, which was playing AFL football and then to be I guess half successful at it. See once again, well that again that comes with I feel like all this stems from my childhood and growing up, and yeah, back to that, it's it's also going into school. When I was at school, you know, I was the you know, I genuinely think I was only liked at school and very popular because I was good at sports. Other than that,
you know, I was the poor kid. I didn't have of the cool shoes or the clothes. And I remember I used to run in I used to run in all the cross countries and at the school, and I'd always make the state cross country, the state hurdles and whatnot. There was only two or three kids from our school,
you know, every two years. It was very rare, and I used to making it and looking back on those photos because I went I went back to the primary school just this recent last couple of weeks, and there's an old photo of me in grade six standing there about to run the state cross country and I was with two other girls, and you know, they look like I was just looking at what we were wearing, and they were wearing like these beautiful assic runners and just gorgeous,
and I was wearing these big beat up holes in the front so my toe was hanging out and taped basketball shoes that I would have brought from Savers or Salvation Army. And but that's what I mean, That's what that's sort of what I grew up with. And I think that's what I meant by, you know, not feeling good enough, not feeling like I belonged anxiety, because you know, I was never the you know, never the rich kid, never the I didn't have things that other people had.
If I wanted to play PlayStation or whatever it was, I'd have to go to friends houses and play that. If I wanted, you know, something other than baked beans or spaghetti or whatever it was, I'd have to go to a friend's house. So I guess that's how I was sort of born into it, and that's what I brought with me into my footy because my get out outside of that was my footy. And what I just touched on with being popular at school, that purely would
have been because of my sporting ability. So I embraced that and and I wanted to be the best at all my sporting and I knew if this is if this was what was going to be me, and this is what was going to I guess, not make me, because I'm far bigger than sport, but I guess in a way make me and help me succeed in life. Then there was something that I was going to chase, and I'm here now.
So early on your you felt your worthyness and self worth was wrapped up in money, I guess, and what you didn't have, yeah.
I guess, yeah, what I didn't have. And I'd go to school, and you know, kids being kids, like young kids, people look at you as the odd one out because you know, you're going to school with holes in your shorts and holes in your T shirt and you don't have shoes. And you know, we used to have the ESL room, which was like the English and Learning Center where at lunch, if you didn't have lunch, you can go there and get a free roll whatever it was for lunch. And I have to stress this was not
off the back of my mum not trying. My mom was juggling my older brother, myself. She was living by herself. We're in a ministry house. She's trying it absolute best. She gave birth to my older brother when she was seventeen. I think she was seventeen. It's hard to get a job or someone to look after the kids. It was just really hard. Her mum had passed away when my mum was was, oh, thirteen or fourteen. And yeah, I get yeah, so I'm not making excuses, but they.
Sort of are because she had a hard life.
It's hard. It's hard, and she did it absolutely very best with us, And yeah, and I guess that's what I mean. That's what I mean. So it's not about not the fact that I didn't have money or we didn't have money. Why I had anxiety. It was just going to school and seeing other kids, and you know, little kids. You see now, I guess at that time you don't see because you're a kid. You see now, kids can be mean to each other. Kids always mean to each other at school, and they just say things.
No I did. I did get teased for you know, not having food or clothes or.
What kind of things.
Would they say, Oh, yeah, it was just more laughing at me. It was more laughing at me. And I can't really remember what they were.
Saying, but you can remember how it felt.
Oh, I definitely remember how it felt, because you know, there was times where I didn't want to go to school, like I didn't really didn't want to go, and yeah, that's how it was. But like I said, I could always resort back to my sport and it was the only reason why I was, why I was popular at schools because of my sport. Other than that, no other reason.
How do you feel about your biological dad.
I've been asked this a few times, but there's no feeling there, Like I don't. My dad is my stepdad, who's been there since pretty much. I can remember my best friend's old man Sam, So, my best friend Ray Sam, he's another dad. My father in law was a he's another dad. But Sam and my stepdady's name is Ken. Those two us especially like I wouldn't. Yeah, I can't speak more highly of him, especially Sam. When I came into their life, I was I was thirteen, they just moved.
They lived in Noble Park, I living down and long. They would have seen this scrawny little runt who used to train in basketball shoes and hand me down from the Salvos wwet shirts because that's what I used to wear, and big bodies because and everyone was wearing their favorite footy players at training and I wasn't wearing anything. And I don't know what it was. I really don't know what it was. But Sam, Carol and Ray raised an only child. They took me in and when I knew that,
I was welcomed because I was always hesitant. I could never stay at other people's houses, not even my cousin or my cousins or anything, because I'd always just want to be with my mum. When I sort of met Ray and we played foota together and I started to
get more and more comfortable. I remember Ray one time asked me to stay at his house when I was thirteen or whatever it was, and I'd never stayed at anyone houses I'd been and try to, but I'd always cry at middle of the night or whatever it was, and asked to go home, and I'd get dropped home probably over twenty times, and yeah, this one time I went there, and yeah, I just never felt more at
home than I was when I was there. And I stayed the night, and I reckon for a whole year, for two for a year to two years, every Friday would stay at Ray's house, and it became ritual. They became my second family, and to this day they are they're my you know, they're as close to me as I am with my mum. And I guess my brothers and Kim and yeah, Sam mc carroll definitely my second parents. And yeah, I guess that's sort of what saved me
from going down a completely different path. Well and truly because my older brother, again not having any role models in our life. He's old man, wasn't in his life. It was just mum, you know. He hung out with the wrong crowd and got himself in a bit of trouble. He's now, thank God, I pray to God every day. That's touch is. He's got two kids, he's got another kid on the way. My older brother, he's settled as a house with his partner, and he was going down
the complete opposite path. He was on the verge of going to jail. Or whatever it was. And and that was purely because we had nothing. We had absolutely nobody. And when I was at age, like I said with Sam and Carol and Ray, I was thirteen, I was this is when you start to branch out as a football player, I believe, because you physically start to develop a little bit more and whatnot. I don't know what it is that drew them, that drew them to me, because I could have just been any other kid who
could have been anything. And yeah, they were willing to take me in, take me to my interleague games, take me to my down on sting Ray games, and yeah, I'm here now. And if I didn't have that, I genuinely don't know, I could have gone down the pathway of my brother whatever it was.
So they saved your life.
Yeah, I love them dearly. I just can't speak more high of him. Sam. We're doing to be Reno's at the moment. And you know a perfect example. Yesterday we got a new fridge put in and I'm not the most handiest man in the world, and I didn't know how to unscrew one of them. There was like a thing that was attached to the fridge and I rang Sam up yesterday and he had work and he left work. He had three hours left. He left work, he said, I'm coming. He came in and fixed it all for me.
Was there for about an hour and a half and then went. Ray on his birthday, which is the son who's my best mate. Ray on his birthday two weeks ago, January twelfth, he we're getting a pagola. He built the pagolar off his own back. He's a builder. Sunday birthday he came over. Woke up at eight o'clock to him building the pagolar outside on his birthday. So, yeah, I love these guys dearly.
Does it build sense of resentment or anger in you when you're a young man and your dad's picked up and left.
Yeah, it does. It does, because I feel like I miss out on a little bit. I miss out on well won that role model, having a role model, Like I'm Kim and I are going to be parents in March. So I think about that and I just think like I'm going to do everything I can. Whatever happens between Kim and I, it does not matter. And you know, she's the love of my life. I'll be with there for the rest of my life, but if something would ever happen, I would move heaven and earth for my
daughter's going to be obviously my daughter. So I think about that growing up, and I don't know. And I've had conversations with my mum and asked her whether just be honest with me. Did you stop him from seeing me or whatever it was? And here from what my mom's told me, and I know, she has no reason at all to lie because you know, she lost her own mum and her dad was sort of in and out of her life too, so she had no reason
to lie. And I just feel like, from from what I've been told, there was never any effort from my biological dad's behalf. And I miss out not only on a role model and having stability, I guess as a kid, because we had none of that. You know, we weren't guaranteed food and things like that, just things that other people might take for granted. I know there's cousins out there on his side, so his nieces and nephews that are my cousins that I would love to you know,
have a bit to do with. Obviously, my grandma. So my mom's mom passed away when my mum was thirty, so I don't have my grandma. My pop, I guess was in and out of my mum's life, so I didn't really have my pop. But I know on my biological dad's side, I know, you know his mom, so my nan on that side was a massive footy fan. You know, he's still well and truly I think alive. So yeah, just things like that that I missed out on.
And did you ever try and reach out to him?
I did when I was When I was sixteen, I went and asked my mom if I could meet my auntie, which was my biological dad's sister and my cousin. So I met them once and got on lock a House on Fire. But I remember for some reason I didn't want to meet my dad. I did not want to meet him, and I remember for some reason he was, He came, he was there. You know, whether they listened to this or not, I you know, from then on out, I just knew I didn't want to have anything to
do with him. He was just the polar opposite. He was doesn't watch football, everything that I was interested in, he was the opposite pretty much. You know, I don't I don't even think I look like him. You know, I've seen him, and I'm like, I don't even look like you mate, like you know, I'm it's just, yeah, it's it's something that I don't really think about or talk about or say anything about. So it's quite weird openly talking about it because I haven't really spoken about
it to anyone. So I guess it's played a part in my anxiety is growing up, but it is what it is. I've managed to create a life without him.
Do you remember how you felt when you saw him?
Yeah, Yeah, I was just I couldn't believe that I was actually seeing him because I'd never met him. I'd spoken to him, I think once or twice when I was younger, on the phone, but I don't remember those conversations. I just remember i'd spoken to him, But yeah, meeting, I just remember like I just couldn't believe he was there. I was just thinking, wow, like this is actually the guy. I wouldn't be alive it wasn't for this guy. But
that was it. There was no you know, there was no instant like wow, my life has been leading to this moment to meet the other half of who created me. Like there was no love, There was nothing It was just wow. And I think he gave me thirty dollars credit actually for my phone, and that was that was pretty much it had He had a family of his own, She had this beautiful house, beautiful house in Collingwood, somewhere peronic in Collingwood, and they had he had his own
little bar at the back lock. He just had things that I would have dreamt of having growing up. And yeah, I just remember thinking wow, wow. And yeah, I've never spoke to him or seen him since.
Did he try after that?
See that? That's what I mean, like even if I felt like there was a bit of effort there on his behalf, which there wasn't, And and I got no doubt since he gave me credit. I cannot remember, but I got no doubt I would have given him my number. And yeah, I know now I have had no communication at all, nothing, not even with my football, which he sort of made me feel good, because you know, if I felt like he was I want to get into
my life. Once I saw it I got drafted and was in the taking credit, then I would have told him we to go. Pretty much, that's a.
Very impressionable age to have been through something like that. And particularly when you put on top of a budding football career and the fact that you're trying to get drafted and I imagine putting a lot of pressure on yourself in that sense to also be going through that at the same time.
That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess. But my get out was football, so up until about the age of sixteen, because I think that's when I shot, I shouted, when I started, hope shut, I was going to say start and showed together. It was when I started to show signs of my anxiety.
I started to shut.
I reckon. It was when I started to show signs of my anxiety and I used to show it in a form of OCD. So up until then, up until about sixteen, I used to go out there and play and just genuinely love playing, Like love playing and I love being because that was junior foody. I love being the best player. I was better than everyone at junior footy.
I just I just loved it. And then starting to make the rep teams and go on you know, trips to Sydney and play for Fit Country and my other best mate, so I got two best mates growing up. Pever was the other one and he actually got drafted Richmond as a rookie twenty twelve. Funny story, but anyway, he was my other best mate growing up and very similar to me. He's island, one of nine kids. His older brother has twenty eight and has eight kids now,
like it's just a big island a family. And we did everything together and he was my support system with my football because we played Sting Rays No Park everything together. And I think back to when I started to make those teams because I never played. I never never went to a private school, no way. No. I don't even think we paid for the public school fees just because the schools could see that I had potentially get drafted. I don't think they were going to bother charge of
my mum because it was just not gonna happen. Otherwise I wouldn't have been schooled.
It's a lot to have your footballing ability wrapped up in so much, so much that puts a lot of immediate pressure on your career.
Well, when we started to get to them REP teams where you were chosen, you didn't have to pay to go into these programs like parents through these days. And I remember my first main thing I got chosen in was under sixteen. The country tournament. We played in these little practice match around robin things where they selected I think it was like sixty country kids and then you'd have to try it and that to make the final
thirty squad. And I remember making those I never thought I was gonna be good enough at all, No way, like I never thought at all would be good enough whatever it was, even though when I'd go play local footy on the weekend, I'd absolutely dominating. I know I would, and I'd just I'd know I would, and I'd show it. But then I get in these environments and I just never thought I'd be good enough or ever believed in myself.
When I finally actually made the team, Bucks was coaching, we went up to Sydney, and I remember I was with Peaver and the worry we had, so our parents dropped us off at like a petrol station near the airport and we called a bus to Sydney or the as and Sydney because Bucks wanted to organize all that
with the players. And remember they said, you know, you've got to bring your own pocket money and this and that, and we're going to be going out for lunches and dinners off your own back and this and that for the twelve days ahead, and oh we I didn't give it any money, Like the only clothes I brought was the VIC Country clothes that we'd been given. Other than that, I reckon I had the same T shirt, shorts. The only shoes I was wearing was shoes we were given
again from VIC Country. So I had clothes that was given to us. On this bus trip about diverse South Australia, VIC Metro Western Australia against players now, Tom Mitchell now and Steve Conniglio, all these stars who were playing for other teams, Chad Winguard, and I was thinking, what am I doing. I can't even I don't have any money like Peter and I don't have any money. We can't
go on these lunches. We're wearing the VIC Country clothes around Sydney everywhere we go, and we're getting looked at by the other players, probably looking at us like why these guys just wearing every Country clothes all the time, going out there playing, not evenythinking I belong. And at the end of the tournament up I end up winning the MVP of the Carnival and we ended up winning the title, the national champion, the championship, and then I
made the AOS team. There's only one of thirty kids who made it each year, and I made that and that all happened in one year, and by the time that end of the year came, I was I reckon full blown had OCD, which was a part of me dealing with my anxiety. Things would have to be in certain ways. I'd have to put my shoes on left right. I look back ten years, so it's ten years. This year was when I started getting in them programs so long I've been around for ten years. Jeez.
So you say that OCD superstitions for other people.
Actually, way of me dealing with my anxiety was mostly no doubt. And my psychologist at that time was Rosie for Got her last, big, long, last name. She worked with the Giants and the As and if you could ever speak to her, she could vouch for that too, as a way of me dealing with my anxiety.
So how bad what kind of it was terrible?
The thing is, I don't remember how bad it was. That's how bad of a headspace I was in. I mean, if you ask Taylor Adams was playing there, and Taylor is one of my closest mates here. He was playing there at the time with me Dylan. She was playing guys that I played with. I reckon if you were to ask them, they would have more because I just remember being in a frame of mind where I would have set routines when i'd wake up, from the minute I woke up to the minute I went to bed,
I'd have things I'd have to do throughout the day. Otherwise, One I'd think that I wasn't good enough and I didn't belong being here too, that bad luck was going to come my way if I don't do what I'm doing. And three that I'm being ungrateful and everything that I have is going to get taken away from me. That were my three things, and that that was why I went through what I was going through with my OCD, and it was a form of me, I guess, dealing with it.
Do you think it's because the stakes were raised because.
You were doing because I got more and more and more, And then I think.
Instead a feeling worthy, you were feeling like yeah.
And I think because I was achieving things, Like I said, we won the national Carnival Under sixteens and I won the MVP with Tom Mitchell, like I'm thinking, are you kidding me? Like you guys watch the same game, like there's no way. And then I made the AS which was only thirty kids each year making we got to go to South Africa, like I'd never done anything like that. And because I was achieving things, I thought, well, this
is this is why I'm achieving it. Because my anxiety is through the roof, I have OCD to deal with it. This is why I'm achieving. That's what I believed. And I look back now and I don't do anything OCD now. The only thing I do is if I say something, I'll touch would whatever it is. But I think a lot of people do that and just I just put my shoes on left to right and that's all I do. But no one would know that if I didn't say anything. I just put them on left right every time. That's
just the thing I'd do. Other than that, Like I don't even remember. I used to just do so many things. I used to have a routine, to the point where my Mum used to pretty much cry to me, like Adam, what are you doing? Like you know, what are you doing, Like you're frying your brain, You're going to have a breakdown like whatever it is, And yeah, that was just me. That was me.
You mentioned you're about to be a dad, and you've done a lot of self reflecting what kind of dad do you want to be and what did you learn from your childhood?
In that sense, I'm going to be there. That's the most important thing. No matter what, I'm going to be there. I feel like I have a lot of love in this world to give to people, and I do that. But with this little baby girl that's going to be here soon, she already is my world. Like, you know, I I think about her and I just you know, I get emotional, like it's just crazy that myself and Kim,
who we've been through so much. Yeah, it's just when I found out, it was just it was just the greatest thing in the world, Like being where I've been and the headspace that I've been in before the last twelve months one having Kim there and from the moment I laid my eyes on Kim, it was almost like it's such a cliche thing to say, but it was almost like my heart was like, yeah, that's the girl that I want to be with and to know that we've created something that we're going to love Deally And
I already love Deally like she's just the whole reason why I live now she's not even here. Yeah, I just I just want to I just want to give her what I didn't have. I just want to give her everything that I didn't have. And yeah, I've spoken about what I didn't have, And it's not about the
material things. It's just about the love of the guidance, the care, the want to make her a nice, happy, caring, grateful human being and get to an age where she can pass on her own knowledge to her own kids and she can, you know, be proud that Kim and I raised.
Her, be proud of my dad.
Yeah. Every time we'll talk about Kim and the girl emotional all the time.
It's nice. Yeah, you've mentioned how much Kim's been there for you. It must have been tough for her as well, watching somebody go through deep level of anxiety.
Yeah. Well, she was sort of the first person I told when I was when I felt like I needed to talk to someone or I actually needed to say something otherwise, like I didn't know what I was going to do, whether I was going to retire or you know, whatever it was, because I genuinely wanted to. I was this.
This was two thousand and eighteen, so but yeah, I sort of said the story in the documentary, but it was after the round three we played against Carlton, and up until then, I'd been sort of dealing with a bit and I just hadn't shown anything. And I just remember we won, We won the game and everything. It was a good game, and I was just in the in the spa, out there, ball in my eyes, out trying to hide my tears from everyone, and I sort
of knew that I need to say something. And Kim was up on the Gold Coast playing in the Commonwealth Games and I was lining up the next day to watch her, and I told her that night, and yeah, I spent the weekend with her, and she told me, I need to talk to someone that's sort sort of where we've got the ball rolling, but to see for her to be there at my most vulnerable times. You know, I think back now, and she was going with her
own stuff. She was dealing with her own stuff. She plays an elite sport at the highest level, has been since she was eighteen. You know, she's been two Commonwealth Games, she's done and also wanted to Premiership everything. And for her to be there and sacrifice I guess her own life in a way and choose to stay here and be here in Melbourne to support me. And she's a New South Wales girl. Her family's in New South Wales.
She lives and breathes Queensland because she loves Queensland. To be here in a place where she's out of her comfort zone purely for me and to help me and support me, is you know, that's just love. That's just love right there. It's something that, yeah, as much as you can go through life when you're with someone and you know, just go through the motions a bit and take them for granted in a way, I never would.
I never will. I never would. She's the greatest human being in the world to me, she's she's Yeah, I wouldn't be that. I can genuinely say I wouldn't be playing footy now. I would have retired already well and truly if it wasn't well and truly well and truly, And I know if you talk to anyone here at the club and they were to hear that. You know, they be oh, no, this and that, this and that well, and truly I would have retired well.
And truly, why was it so bad at that time?
I just I just didn't want to play, like I didn't. It started with anxiety around performance. I still have that now, Like I have anxiety around performance. Everyone hasn't. You're lying if you don't say you don't have anxiety around performance. And I'm just saying on different spectrums of anxiety, whether it's the smallest of anxiety. Everyone gets anxiety about performance because you want to play well. You want to play well,
and you want the team to win. But when it started for me to translate to off the field, and the anxiety came with me and was with me off the field and was in my everyday life. In my head, I was thinking, you don't deserve this, You don't deserve that everything you have right now, look where you've come from, Like,
you don't deserve to have any of this. And I can't tell you why my brain was doing that, but this was doing that and for that to translate to off the field, because at least at the time or even now, when I get my worries about football, whatever it is, I can step in my own head, I can step outside of the football side of me and accept life and be, oh, how good is this? Like I've got this beautiful house with my partner and my
baby to be everything. Where at that point in my time in my life, at that time, it was affecting my life. It was affecting everything everything.
How did it manifest itself? What would happen?
What it was? I think it started with hearing things from what did I say to you when just before we about the start, I said, you're one of the good ones hearing things about you know, I guess in terms of the football side of things, I felt like you're getting judged because what you see me two hours a week playing football, and I'm a competitive person. I hate losing. I'm not going to be liked by everyone. But don't judge. Don't judge me and attack me personally.
And that's how I feel a lot of people went about things. I guess early on, especially two sixteen, two seven, and when I first got here, we weren't overly successful, and we had a great group of guys who probably you know, should have played better than what we did, but we didn't. I felt like the way we were attacked and me too, and people telling me, you know, why did you go here and not go to Richmond
and whatever it was, and that affected me. It affected me because from what I'd been through and gone through and my child growing up, and the love and care that I have for so many people and everything, for people to attack me and call me, you know, a dickhead and they don't know me like that, you know what I mean? They just don't know me. No one outside of who knows me, who doesn't know me. No one knows what I'm like, knows how I am, knows how I will do anything for anyone I go, I
step out of my way, do anything for anyone. The amount of times I'd go on to my Instagram messages or whatever it was, and ninety five percent of the time it'd be people or kids asking for advice, this and that. And I used to spend an hour, two hours, probably two every two weeks just going through that and replying to everyone who genuinely wants feedback, advice, everything, And
then going through those comments. You'd see occasionally see one pop up and it's just someone absolutely hurling abuse at mee for choosing to play for Collin and Richmond, or you know, saying just yeah, just calling me shit like it's just petty stuff, petty stuff that I probably shouldn't even worry about. I know that it's easy for people to say, don't worry about it, but it affects me. It affects me. It affected me, So it affected me, affects me. Now I'll just ignore that and I don't
worry about that stuff. But that's where it all manifested them early two sixteen, two seventeen, because if you think about it to twelve thirteen, fourteen fifteen at the Giants, there's no attention to the Giants, like, with all due respect to them there, that's why they're so so freaking good and they're a great footy club. And you know, I will always love that football club because of how they shape me into the the player and person that
I am, and the people there are incredible. But you know, there's no attention, there's no spotlight, and you come into this spotlight and you know, you feel like you get attacked, like as a person and say, I go to a shopping center at Southland whatever it is, and I'm a proud person and I'm loving and caring it. I'll go if someone's a photo, whatever it is, I go out
of my way for them. But if someone you know, and this happens quite a bit, if someone you know were to say something real smart, assy or whatever it was, it's hard for me to pull myself back, tough for me, anyone to tough for me to not what like, go up and challenge the bloke and not do anything about it. And when I'm with my friends and I'm talking, my
best friends grew up like me. So if you're growing up like me and someone challenges out, things happen like you know what I mean, And I'm with these guys and I get challenged and not challenged. I get, you know, people just being smart us because there are in groups of friends and whatever it is, and it's just like, come on, man, you see me two hours a week, kick a football around, come and have a chat with me about football or whatever you want to talk to
me about. And I guarantee you'd be if you if you had an opinion of me, and if it's a negative opinion, to be completely shocked. Because I love everyone. I'm a lover. I'm a lover. I'm well and truly a lover. I have the time for everyone.
You're listening to. Ordinarily, speaking with special guests Adam Trelaw of the Collingwood Football Club, I find the face that football is in general, but you specifically put out. It's really interesting to me because, for example, you talk about anxiety and performance anxiety with football. I remember very vividly
Grand Final Day. The game was going I was doing radio on the boundary and you ran past on the boundary spot it spotted me sitting down, gave a wink and said good anaz well the Grand Finals going on. And I thought Jesus books relaxed today. Either that or it was totally covering up just the sheer levels of anxiety because that was such. You don't get football as doing that in an ordinary game, let alone Grand Final Day. What were you thinking in that?
No, I do remember that. It's just yeah, there's a lot of I feel like there's a lot of mutual respect between you and I and I can just tell a lock. I said, you're one on the good You're a good person and you want to get the best out of people. And I can see that. And when I see that in people, no matter who it is. We're talking about the trainers here who I'd get water off them twenty times a game, and I make sure every time i'm gonna get water, I say thank you,
no matter what it is. If I'm gassed, whatever it is, I say thank you, and I guarantee they could vouch for that. It's a way of me showing a sign of appreciation because that person, in particular, so you in this instance, has had an effect on me in a positive way, and I appreciate that. I appreciate all that. I'll give you my time. I don't care if I'm about to, you know, play on the grand fine, I don't care if I see I'm going to say good eight, whatever it is. I'm not one of those guys where
oh it's football. I'm just going to lock in. And that's what that's what I mean by you know, these harmful words and social media and people don't see like I'm a lover, not a fighter, like I have time for everyone. And the example you said, if I know you and I'll see how I'll say good ad you. I don't care if you you know, whatever it is, I don't care if you don't go for Collingwood. If you're whatever it is, I'll still talk to you. It does not phase me.
That's really nice. If you think you're just saying that, I didn't expect that to be the rest spot, that would be some sort of nervous tick.
Or if it was you know, Jared Witeley or Mark Robinson, if they because I've done a work with him, if they were sitting there on the boundary line, I'd say the same I'd do the same thing. I'd say, good, here you go.
How did it affect your footy? At the depths of it. At the depths of it, I.
Didn't want to play. The thing is I didn't want to play, so because that was round three, I hurt myself around thirteen, So that was teen games with it. By actually nine games. I reckon four of those games. I rank him up before the game, told I don't want to play. I can't play. I just feel ungrateful, not I'm grateful. I just feel not worthy, like I shouldn't be out there. I'm cheating myself. I'm I'm a
fraud in front of the boys. Boys are asking how I'm going, and I meant to show them this persona that I'm fine and what not with deep down, I'm really dying on the inside when I say things happen for a reason, because that's something I genuinely believe in. And God makes things happen for a reason. And when I did my hamstream ripped my hamster off the bone that day against Carlton around thirteen or fourteen, I now, I didn't want to. I didn't want to play that game.
I ranked him up beforehand that morning, and she was playing a game of netball and then came across and watched me play, and her old man was a came to watch too, and he first game had ever been. I remember ringing up and saying, I didn't want to, can't, I can't do it. She came home, So.
Were you sitting in your car?
And I was at home before that leave and I came home. She came home and she's seen me after I already told her, and I was. I broke down on the bed and I said, can you ring It would either been Maxie or row Rolling Bounds, who's he's been here for one hundred years pretty much, and she pretty much, you know, we pretty much talked it out and ended up convincing me not to not to not play, you know, do what. But it was in a good way. It wasn't in a way where she sort of forced
me to play by no means at all. This is what I needed reassurance a lot of the time. I just needed reassurance that everything's going to be okay. And that's what she did. And I think she was probably one of only two or three people at the time, with Jackie and Maxie and Bucks to one of four
people who could probably get that out of me. If that was any other person, I probably would have said, Noah, stuffy, I'm staining here, I'm not even going ended up going and yeah, I just I ripped my hamster off the bone in the last quarter. But that whole game I was I was miserable. I was absolutely miserable, and Maxie could see it on the bench. You know, we won the game, but I didn't want to be there and just mentally was checked out. I didn't want to be there.
And when I ripped my hamster off the bone, I didn't know it at the time, or both hammies. I didn't know it at all, and then went down into the rooms. I don't even we won. I don't even remember singing the song. I think I bypassed the song with Maxie. MAXI took me into a room again. I didn't know the extent of my hamstrings. I genuinely thought i'd had two cramps, and by the stage, the cramps had settled, so I wasn't really in too much pain.
It was very sore, but I was in pain. And MAXI brought Kim and was her in and I was ball of eyes out, not because of my hamstrings. I was ball of eyes out because I just couldn't believe I put myself through two hours of not wanting to do something like I genuinely, genuinely that was the worst where I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to be there. I just wanted to leave. I reckon halfway through the second court. I wanted to leave. I wanted to walk off the ground and leave. Yeah, I
remember having that. I avoided the meeting, so the boys went to the meeting. I waited them to go to the meeting, and I went home, and yeah, I just remember being a mess talking to Kim, and yeah, I just remember saying, how good is this? How goods now that I have a reason not to play, And three days later I went in for surgery to repair my hairshring,
and I was happy. I was happy I had didn't have to put myself through something I didn't want to go through, and that was playing relieved, and then yeah, and then that eight to nine week period was probably the most clear clear mind I've ever been before that like in a long time with my football, Like probably ever, I've never been that clear of mine. After I had
my surgery, I had two weeks off. We had a couple of injuries, and we didn't know how the season was a pan out because we had some big injuries and we didn't know where we're going to finish whatever it was. And got to a point where we got on a roll and won like three or four games in a row, and it was voluntarily clear we're going to play finals. Just didn't know where we're going to finish.
I got to a point where after having two three weeks off, I'd seen Jackie for her in that two week period where I'd hurt my hamstring, her, Kim and Maxie, the work that we did together, it saved me. It saved my career, It saved my career. It generally saved my career because I wanted to retire, I didn't want to play anymore, and I wanted to get into a field where I could where I could get clear of mind.
I knew without footy being there, my anxiety would be would be gone almost because I wouldn't have to worry about that, because that's how I get judged. Eighty to nine percent of my life. I'm judged because of how kick a footy or whatever it is which was affecting me. But at that time, I thought, if I get rid of footy, straighten my head out, go into a field where I can help people who go through the same
thing that I do. And then yeah, two to three weeks of sessions of where we found ways to work around things and realizing I'm only twenty five or twenty four, whatever it was, and that my best year is there ahead of me. Yeah, I ended up getting through that, and then I set myself a goal to get back eight weeks after ripping both my hamstrings. I got back and played finals.
I remember that too, and you got back quay quicker than anyone thought. But I was like, if anyone's going to do it, still I was.
Still affected with my hamstrings around twelve thirteen last year, so I'm talking a whole year. So last year two nineteen was when I actually felt back to myself and I came back and played. It was eight to nine weeks after I'd done it. So should you have Yeah, yeah, no doubt I didn't in terms of me being at one hundred percent my absolute best, no way. But that would have been the case for the start of the
twenty nineteen season, So it didn't really matter. And the best thing about it when I look back on that seat on that final series is that I still contributed. I contributed in a good way. I contributed the two wins we had. The first final was sort of my first game back. It was like playing my first game again. It was just like wha, this is quick. And then the next two finals I contributed well. I contributed us
to winning and then the Grand Final. As much as I hate thinking about it, we I felt like, I, you know, contributed in a positive way.
How did you cope with the Grand final loss after such a big year, because it's hard anyway.
Yeah.
Do you think it was harder for you given everything you've been through?
Yeah? Yeah, I think, yeah, but I think because I'd had such a crazy, oh really crazy eight months. I'd been at the bottom of the barrel, absolutely my most vulnerable to now be playing in a Grand final after injuring myself and everyone saying, oh, you know, I won't get back to have achieved that. And this is where my thinking started to tinker and I started to look at it in a different way and not be in my anxiety self. I guess I started to think, well, you put that work in so you got back to
that final. You were the one who got up and rehabbed three times a day, every single day with the physios. You were diligent, You did everything, you iced every hour.
Were you're getting up in the middle of the night to all right everything still.
And everything from going from playing and not wanting to play and you know, being miserable and whatever. Having that two week period of sessions with Jackie and Maxie and Bucks and Kim and icing that were my two things that I was doing and enjoying just not having to
get up and train and meetings and whatever. I'd always talk about my inner circle and the people at this footy club because this is where I am eighty percent of my life is going to those people when I feel insecure or whatever it is, when I'm having my battles, and I never because we hadn't openly spoken about my battles. This is a way of me dealing with it, and this is what we figured out to be over that
two week period. So randomly, I'd just be sitting in Maxie's office and Maxie would know why I was sitting there. He doesn't have to know why, because usually in someone's office you know what's going on. He knows why I'm there because something going on in my head at the time. I need reassurance. You don't have to say anything. I just know you're here, Maxi, and I get that warmth feeling that I know you just care about me, and
that's what we care about. That is what I was doing in that eight to ten week block when I got back and then going into footy it was another thing. When I got back to playing, it was the same thing, except my focus on was was on playing and having that inner circle.
So you lose the Grand Final, How did you feel that day and how did that impact?
I was? Yeah, I was, I was I was shattered, absolutely shattered. There was only one reason I got back to play, and that was to win the Grand Final. And considering the fairy tale that we sort of had up until then, no one picked us, especially the week before. I don't even think we like, you know, Richmond Richmond, no no credits, no discredit to us, Richmond just playing that good. Yeah, it was so hard to beat at the mcg everything.
And to Mason Cox, yeah, and then yeah.
And then so then to play the way we did, which I knew we had in us. I just felt like, this is ours to lose. And then we five goals to nothing a quarter time or pretty much, and I guess to lose the way that we lost, you'd probably I was shattered, Believe me. I was ball in my eyes out I seeing Kim, I broke down all my friends. But I wasn't as shadowed as what you'd actually think
because of everything I'd gone through. And I remember seeing Travi Vaco in the rooms when I was with Kim, and I was with how his wife too, Kalia, and we were just hugging and embracing and crying. I remember looking over to travn trav I had probably the toughest four weeks of his life with his sister and her name was on his arm, and I just remember he hadn't showed emotion for the whole time of the incident happening with his sister. To that point, I hadn't seen
him cry once. You know, my heart was going out to him all the time because I couldn't imagine what that would be like for me. And I remember turning to him and he was inconsolable, like he was miserable. He was he was Oh, it was just yeah, so heartbreaking. And I remember thinking, it's the emotions of everything. It's not the Grand Final. I thought to myself at that time, Wow, I'm upset because I lost the Grand Final where Travis is over there and he lost someone and that really
helped me. It really helped me, and it just helped me. And I moved on pretty quickly. I just you know, we had our meeting and yeah, and then you got to move on. That's the thing. You got to move on. And that's what happened. That's what happened. And I can't watch that final, like I can't wash that Grand Final, and I hate it and I hate thinking about it.
And I see highlights and obviously see dom she kicking the goal, which is incredible, hurry out incredible, and I applaud him for doing that, but well for kicking it, because good on him. But I just can't watch it. And but but I don't live with it. I don't, you know, I don't think what if this was if that, I don't it is what it is. I've gone through too much to dwell on that. I don't care. And I'm at a stage now, like I said, because I've cried earlier about my baby. My whole reason for living
now is Kim and my baby. That's it. I feel like I'm in the best state of my mind that I've ever been in. In terms of my football. I love coming in training, I love seeing the guys. I'm at an age where physically my next three to four years are probably my prime years. Yeah, I'm just in terms of footing, I'm just carefree, like the way I should be.
Were you diagnosed with something with the psych with Jackie.
I've been diagnosed with OCD, not with Jackie. That was with earlier. Got out of that and then yeah, sort of depression in a way. Yeah, yeah, And I was on tablets things to help me with my depression. And yeah, diagnosed pretty much with having a bit of depression.
When you heard that word, how did you feel? Because some people feel relieved and some people feel labeled.
Yeah, no, I wasn't labeled. I didn't fee labeled because I sort of knew it. I sort of knew it. I just would deny it because you know, you don't really want to be diagnosed with depression, because yeah, you just for so many things. We've got one life to leave. It only be known as having depression. But I knew that, and I probably needed that. I needed that to know where I was at in my life, to know that this isn't a healthy lifestyle. This isn't the way you
should be living. It's not healthy for relationships that you want to build. You can't keep putting Kim through this. You know, this circle that you're going through. You have your days, are you good and then you're bad? Turn it into something that you can help other people with. You know, after a period of time where I'd see Jackie every twice every week, then it got to a point where I'd I'd just love to help people. You know.
I did a thing last year leading into the finals, one of my school friends, Brandon, messaged me on Facebook. I hadn't spoken to him at ages, but with one of those with one of those guys, you when we see each other, it's just like the old days. Asked me to come and speak to three hundred people at a factory about mental illness and depression and how it affects everyone, not only sports people, and it was the best thing I've ever done. Like it was great. I
loved it. I loved being able to talk about it. I felt like they got so much out of it. I had, you know, most of them come up and personally thank me and appreciate me coming out and talking about things that I'd gone through. But everything that I'd spoken about, I I never meant it to intentionally get people to, you know, think poor Adam or It was never any of that. It was never any of that.
It was just I felt like I had the platform with my documentary that was coming out on the footag Club and me being in it, being on AFL three sixty, which I know he's watched by a lot of people and especially footy fans, and wanting the broader public. I guess who are outside Collingwood because a lot of Collingwood fans you know know what I'm like because I talked
to him a lot of training. Whatever. It is the ones outside to see what we go through, to come into my world a little bit and see what I'm like. You know, the things we battle as athletes, but it's not just athletes, it's it's everyone. Everyone goes through their own battles. And yeah, it's been incredible, it's been incredible. I still get messages to this day, you know, fan
mail and whatever. It is about being able to come out and talk about things, and yeah, it's at a point where it just should still be pushed, should still be pushed.
It impacted your footy. You said you wanted to retire. Did it impact you and your life? Did you ever think that deeply about it in the sense of was it deeper than.
For Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know retiring would be easy in terms of my life. Yeah, I know what you mean outside of footy. Yet you know, I'd never ever think about I would never ever harm myself or think about being brutally honest taking my own life. I'd never do anything of that because I feel like that is a selfish way to go about it, the amount of people that I would be hurting, the amount of people who would just die knowing that I wasn't here anymore.
So I never ever thought that way, but I felt I did feel like the path that I'm going down could potentially lead to something like that. But I never thought about if you know what I mean, Like, I don't mean I.
Ever thought of suicidal thoughts, but I.
Felt what I was going through potentially, if I keep going down this path, it's going to be far worse than just retiring, you know. I might like got to a point where like I wanted to leave the state, Like I didn't want to be in the state. I wanted to leave the country because I felt like, you know, just be easier, just be easier. So, yeah, it was really it was really hard at times. It was really hard to try and live. I felt like I was
living two lives. I was coming and acting a fraud in front of my teammates, telling him I was all good and all okay, but deep down it wasn't.
And you've had a mate who, Yeah, I did.
I did. One of my mates in school, Yeah, Ray, Ray Irdle. He back in two thousand and fourteen or thirteen. I think it was fourteen. Yeah, I was in Syny at the time, and my best mate at the time, Peter, called me and told me that Ray had, you know, taken his own life. So he was the most happiest, fun loving person, like he was just a great human being. He had a daughter, she was only one or two, and he had his own battles and no one's seen it coming. And it happened. Yeah, it happened, and I
know it affects people to this day. It affects you know that that guy I mentioned earlier, Brandon who I guest spoke for, that was his best friend Ray, and we were chatting about it when I seen him for about two to three hours. I was there for about three hours. I spoke for forty five minutes, and I spoke to Brandon for about another two hours, talking about
life and Ray. And it's just still hard to believe, because you know, it's something that he's It's something that in the world and the society that we live in, it is known and people are genuinely trying to do things about it, and you just want to, you know, you just wish you could say if only, like if only you know, if only he could have been there, and I told him, it's all good, it's all okay, Like it's not you know, it's it's not as bad as you as it seems. It's it's okay. You know,
if you need help, there's plenty of support lines. There's so many people that care about you. Like it is hard, it's hard to think about it. It's hard to fathom that that's how you know, he was taken from this world. It was him doing it himself, like it he should be a twenty seven year old man now with his
you know, daughter and life. Yeah, so it's hard. It is hard to think about that and and to be honest, to be honest, when when I was thinking about, you know, me being at my worst, having that in my mind with Ray Irdle and knowing what had happened with Ray and what he'd obviously done, I'm so grateful that it
never went down that path. I'm just grateful for it because I've seen I see I know for a fact, I see the hurt that has been left on his best friend Brandon, and you know, his daughter that's not going to that you know, doesn't see him. I know that if that were to go down the path of if I would ever go down that path, which I never would, thank god, I never thought about it. I just knew there'd be so many, so many people out there that would just hurt and break. And yeah, I'm
just glad. Yeah, I'm just grateful, grateful for the for the people now. I'm grateful for the circle that I have, the circle of friends and family that I have now. Grateful.
So if you're somebody listening to this and you're feeling, you can you know they can relate to how you're feeling. What do you say to those people now? Because it's a lot for you to take on as well, those people coming to you and sharing their own stories.
I appreciate that though.
It's amazing, but it's also a lot for one person to take on. What do you say to all?
I try and think about what my ways of how I do with it. And one you've got to recognize it and not be in denial with your own feelings and your own emotions, and don't be the nineteen fifty sixty, seventies, eighties, even nineties, even two thousand's man because a lot of these issues with men, because we're meant to be big marcho men you know who have no feelings. She'll be right is the saying she'll be right. It's fine. You know you got someone has passed away in your family,
Oh shul be right, it's fine. Or you could get sacked at your job. It's fine. I'll deal with that. Whatever it is, that should never be the resolution in your head. She'll be right. Like what I just said, you've got to acknowledge it. And once you acknowledge it, talk to someone who It doesn't matter who it is. Talk to someone. You're going to have someone out there who is going to want to listen, and in this case,
for me, it was Kim and Jackie. So talk to someone and whatever it is, you don't have to say all your problems in one little hit it over. You get a regular coffee catch up or whatever.
It is just the overwhelming thing for a lot of people, isn't It's like where do I star hunt?
Exactly? They bottle it up and when you say something, it's just this big explosion and it comes out, but it comes out in different ways. And for me it was balling my eyes out in the pool. For ray Rdle, it was taking his own life, like it comes out in different ways where it should just be recognizing it, understanding that you're dealing with something here. You may not know what it is, but there's something there. You're not right, you don't feel good within yourself, Go and talk to someone.
And it doesn't have to be a professional. Go to someone that you care and love and know that cares about you. And everyone in this world would have someone like that. Go to them and talk to him and then whatever it is, if you feel great after that, or if you feel like you need further advice or whatever it is, find them steps to do that. Go to someone. If you want to go to someone professionally, go and do that. I did that with Jackie. And there's a reason why they study for years to become
psychologists and whatnot, because they help people like this. I think the overriding message that I got out of all this and that I continue to do to this day, because I'm always going to live with anxiety. It's just me, that's what I am. But for me, the messages it's never as bad as it seems, and it never should be as bad as it seems. You're always going to think the absolute worst of the worst. That's the way human beings are wide, it's the way we're wired. But
it never is. And as soon as you talk to someone and get a little thing off your chest, you just feel that little bit more relief and you feel like the stresses off your shoulders and you feel a little bit more happy and you feel comfortable. And then you talk again, a little bit more as off you and you just gradually take step by step. It's just it's never as bad as it seems, never as bad as it seems.
Hey, finally, you so just spoke. You grew up with not a lot. Now that you have security, you have footy, and you've got a bit of financial success and career success. What kind of things have you done for your mum and your family now? And you smile when I ask you that question.
Yeah, well, my mum doesn't live in a ministry house anymore. So one of my goals, I'll buy my mama house when it's just her and my stepdad. So when my younger brother and sister are, when they're done with living at home and branching off into their own world because they're living at home still, I'm going to buy my mama house, but as soon as I could, I got
them out of the ministry house. Randomly, I'll just go to the coals and buy, you know, five hundred dollars worth of groceries and just drop them off to Mum. I get my emotional side and my feminine side from my Mum. I'll cry at the drop of her hat. Come into the see my baby when she's born. I'll be ball in my eyes out. But Mom cries whenever I do anything like that. So just anything she needs and she needs.
It must be nice to see that reaction though from her, because you've done.
Oh. The best thing is Mum is never she never asks for anything. She never would. She never asks and the only time she'd ever ask for anything is when they are in it. Like I'm talking probably life and death, desperate need. Other than that, never asks, which is the best thing about Mum. So Mum knows if she ever needs anything, and I'm there, I'll give her anything she wants, anything she wants, as long as she's happy and my family's happy. But yeah, we're good now, we're good now.
I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I think you're going to be a wonderful dad.
Thank you, thank you. I can't wait. It's the Yeah, it's gonna be the greatest. It's gonna be the greatest. I can't wait. She's already the most spoilt girl in the world, and I've got a lot of a lot of my best friends are very protective of me, so I can't wait to see what they're all like with her. So she's going to be, Yeah, the most loved human being in the world.
Thank you for being so honest and open. People listening to this, it's it's definitely going to help them. And like I said, I've always enjoyed interviewing you over the years, but yeah, I admire you even more so.
Thank you. Thanks to appreciate it time.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking, and once again a big thank you to Adam Chalaw absolute superstar. If you're struggling to make sure you ask for help, head to Lifeline dot org dot au or Beyond Blue or there are plenty of others out there as well. Please just ask for some help. If you want to get involved in this podcast at Ordinarily Underscore Speaking on Instagram. Thanks again.
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