Interview Series: Creating a Disciple Making Culture with Sheldon Lacsina and Bunny Correa

doing this thing together. And what is amazing about them is they have been practicing the process of turning a normal, regular, classical kind of, you know, church that has programs and cares about performance and all that stuff. And they have been migrating that church, not from one that just makes disciples, but to one that makes disciple makers. And so want to have a conversation with you guys today about what that's like, because I can, you know, share, hey, here's how we did

it. You know, the environments that I come from, but some to some degree, you know, like the wilderness ministry that was starting from scratch, to some degree, right? But you guys have taken an existing congregation that has been around for decades and have been moving it. My first question, just to kind of warm us into it, is, how's that been and how long has it taken to like, like, how long has it taken you to get to where you are? So first of

because it didn't, it didn't make sense. But when I saw her life change, then I started to think, Wait, what is Why is she different? Because we'd argue a lot, right? We're really good friends, so maybe not argue. It's more like she's wrong and I'm right and I'm like, How can you not see from my perspective? Well, you thought you were right sometimes anyway. So that pause says it all. So there are times when we remember there wasn't a

pause, yeah, it wasn't a pause. It was, uh, whatever you want to believe, right? Wait

like I have authority? Because that's all we knew. You go through this class, you get a certificate, and now you have the authority to go do something in someone else's life, and now you can mentor them that qualified you, because nobody wants to be discipled using air quotes with someone who, like, what are your credentials now? Who hasn't been certified? Right? You're not certified to coach me. So that's what I couldn't understand. I'm like, okay, so how does this make

sense in discipleship? And she used the term, I think it was life on life, or something like that. She also used terms like, you come alongside of people. You go on like you have your journey. They have their journey. I'm like, Yeah, but

fine. She's like, Okay, that sounds great, if that's what you feel the Lord saying we can do that at first, I thought she was being sarcastic, because bunny. Was never sarcastic, never, never as Yeah. So, so when, when she said it like that, I thought, okay, she being real? Or is that or she's being sarcastic? So I said, so what does that mean? She goes, No, that's fine. We can do that, and we'll get the teams ready, whatever it was. And then the next time it

happened, I thought, that's different again. And then there are certain other things that she wasn't doing. I was thinking, Is she changing? Like, why is she Why is she different? So I had that in the back of my mind. And then, and we, we do life together, outside of ministry, with our family, our children. So when I seen her different with her family and with other people. I'm like. She's not acting she's not being sarcastic. This is an actual life transformation. What

happened like, what am I missing? What am I not seeing?

Yeah. And if you do all of So, your equation was, if you do all of those things, then you're then I'm worthy, then you're worthy, you're qualified, then you're called, and then you can, now you can serve. So you couldn't serve until you were discipled, or went through the discipleship classes.

different. But I mean, back then, oh well, so it was, it was different because I remember having to go to the classes, and then even part of before we got married, it was like, Well, you do know you guys need to go through this discipleship program so that you can disciple your children. And so that was like, oh, okay, because that's what I thought, that's what was told. So that's what I thought we needed to do. And we did that

for years, years. And one of the conversations that Sheldon and I had when we were doing youth ministry together, and we were in our 20s, and we would talk about the church and always be like we were thinking about, Oh, imagine if, and the way we did discipleship in youth ministry wasn't through a class. In fact, we called it salt serving and learning together. We did it together, that's right. And we just would come alongside of

these kids and and they were like, Oh, it's so different. But then by the time they got to young adults, it's like, oh, I guess you guys got to go to discipleship, right? Yes, but then we had a, but

could and couldn't do, like, that doesn't land. That didn't land very well with me or my my personality and so, and I've been part of this church since I was seven, so it's like, okay and but I was, like, trying to prove to my parents and to the leaders and to God that I was worth something because of all the things that I did in my past. So I thought, Okay, wait. I have to prove myself and decide if I just do this and I look like this, then maybe they'll believe in me. You know,

maybe this is what will happen. But what we decided to do is we had the conversation was like, hey, one day we're going to be the old ones in the church. We're going to be the ones that are going to be we can change, like we might have an opportunity to actually change how we do things, not knowing that God was going to put us in these, oh, in these shoes. Yeah, we I didn't know I was going to be the senior pastor. No idea. No in fact, when, when I became the senior pastor, one of the

first things we did was redo our discipleship classes. We redid them, renamed it, but still was missing something. Right? It's like, it's just not. Landing. And from it started with like 20 something people in one of the classes, and then it ended up with like seven. So there's a high drop off rate. So we thought, what if we just do what we did while we were in youth ministry, and just do life with people. But the church is so massive. Yes, that was the youth ministry

we could do, because we had 100 kids, right? That was doable. Because maybe we had 1015, leaders, and we all could, you know, rally around these kids. Have right life together. But then you take on a church that has 1500 plus. How do we do that when now our the staff is smaller, and God was like, you can't, yeah, right, no, the math doesn't work. It does, and we didn't know. And when we had our, you know, I'm my aha moment. I'm like, I'm texting Sheldon, going, bro, we are

doing something wrong. And, and I just couldn't get no, no, it's fine, because the program, because we have so many people, it has to be this way. Yeah, we cannot do it relationally. It has to be this way. I'm like, there has to be it. Okay. So, okay. And you know, when the Lord spoke to me about, don't worry about the ship, because the ship, you know, yeah, he's like, don't worry about the ship. It's gonna turn but you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to hold the

ropes for a little while. She had to go through some brutal moments to stay and to stay the course, because to try and convince me that was the most difficult thing. Yeah, she's

intentional thing. And then we decided, You know what? Okay, we're not gonna, it's okay. It's okay, if that's what, you know, that's how you do it. But this is how we're gonna, we're gonna start here. And and we just started to like, let's implement it first in our own lives, see if we can do this in those that are around us, you know? And then we started to see, wow, okay, wait, if we only did it like Jesus, maybe that's the

solution to, like, do, wow. And but having God's grace, like his grace was so like, I look back, I'm like, man, you're so good because we didn't know it all. We didn't know what to do, but yet his grace was still present, and people didn't leave. They were being discipled. Holy Spirit does his thing. We just had to learn the correct system and go with that. And the

correct system was to do it like Jesus did. And we even changed the model, like, of our our church, like, these are big decisions that people like our elders, and people are like, What are you doing? And this is where I'm really thankful that Sheldon is a captain, because he's like, okay, like, but he's caring, but yet he still knows this is what the Lord said. So therefore we're gonna do it this way. But the way he did it was

very like, gracious. But on that side, that side of like, Hey, we're gonna do it reach those far from God, one relationship at a time that became our model. Yeah, before we even the buy in, happened like that. Oh yeah, for the buy in. So he already, the Lord was already speaking to him, like, we gotta do it through relationship. We just didn't know how. Yeah, so

patient or long suffering to not. Fight the fights, but trust God like, like, what was the joy set before you that helped you wait it out? Well,

this is what you're gonna do. I said, Okay, I can do this, and we would just cook. And I started to learn from this young man. He was maybe 18 at the time, and I remember when, wait a minute, am I learning something from this dude? Like he doesn't even read his Bible at all. He comes to church, but he's like, you know, but he's doing life with me. And I remember just having like, a conversation with him, and I was like, where did you get that from? He goes, Well, I talked to

God, and he just told me to tell you. I was like, wait what? Like, you didn't go to seminary, you didn't go. You're not you're you know. But I was like, oh, okay, wait a minute. Jesus is talking to me through this 18 year old. And right there, I was like, okay, then it's possible. Hmm, like, God's like, I'm gonna show you that's gonna give you enough hope so then you can hang and have this space and anytime, like, and I remember you saying,

then, just be his friend, right? Like, just be his friend, because you're

Remember just like, Well, maybe you can't learn from someone else then. And he was like, No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm like, Oh, what are you saying then? Holy moly. But, and that young man was Travis, and he's 28 today, and it's been and we still do life together. He's a lifer, and now it's like we learn from him, Oh, my goodness, constantly, constantly, all of our younger ones, yes, so we all have to do this together. Yeah, that's how we're going to have a greater reach. And when

that aha moment came, we're like, okay, Jesus. Because how did Jesus do it with 12? He can, obviously he can do it with 12. Obviously it works. How do we do this?

youth, I didn't know I was discipling them. I just hung out with them. They came to my house. They all slept over. We had, you know, sometimes eight kids over the house just to hang out and but that was the culture. I didn't so that was the difference, right? Like, discipleship was a thing to be taught, and relationship was was just being with people. They weren't the same thing. I didn't know, and a lot of times I we would for me, I would think, well, I don't

have any I'm your teacher. I'm your mentor. You'll learn from me. And I never really was like, Well, I'm learning from you, until I did learn something from them, because I always was. They were like, Auntie bunny, you know? What about this, this and this, and we would hang and all the kids would come over. We'd do all these life we would just do life together. But it wasn't until I realized I could learn from them as well. I needed to

get to a place of it's not about me. I needed to go through a lot of deep like sifting. And the Lord would give us words. We was every year, it would be like a word. And there was maybe 2021, the word was sift. And I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And, and then yeah, and he would be his. Hype to the staff was like, You think last year was hard? This year is going to be even harder. Are you guys excited? You're

excited? Like, get ready, yeah, yeah, so and so that I was like, COVID was going to come. But then the Lord gave a word, I think was our 2022 and it was intentional, specific and purposeful. And we're like, Well, what does that mean? We don't know. For Sheldon to say, I don't know, but all I know is something's going to be different. And we started to just even do it with our staff. Like, let's just be intentional

with our staff. It was us first. Yeah, the staff also so that they knew what we were doing and why we're doing what we're doing. Because the unknown is a problem for me. I want to know, right? But what the Lord also showed was, because we're opposite, for bunny and I, opposite sides of the spectrum. And what I mean by that is, let's just say, for instance, when we talk about how we speak with people, she'll have one perspective. I'll have a totally different perspective.

She'll say, go to the youth ministry. We have some young adults there, and there's a problem. I'm like, Oh, they can handle it, yeah, but it might be dangerous, because a person is on campus right now. I'm like, Yeah, but these are men. They're grown men. They can take care of themselves, yeah? But they're they're young kids. I'm like, they're in their 20s. They're not young children. They're like, my babies, they're not your babies, because she's seen them grow up. So so I get the

motherly side. My side is too bad. Yeah, but what if they get hurt? Then they get hurt. Not every hospital, not everybody makes it. Not everyone makes that's how we lie, the polar opposites, which is necessary for the both of us, that we find that middle ground. Listen to Holy Spirit. So there's sometimes where I need to yield. Sometimes she needs to yield so that the polar opposites work. I am discipling without knowing it relationally.

So by the time it comes to her saying, I can learn from these guys, I'm already learning from them, but I was learning the things I wanted to learn. When her aha moment was, I can learn from them. I'm thinking, I've always been learning from them, but my aha moment was, yeah, but I'm picking and choosing what I want to learn now it's I need to learn that if that doesn't feel good, I would just learn the things that feel good to me, right,

study it as much as possible how the brain functions. I'm intrigued and curious about it. So once I heard about you, and it may have been at one of our conferences that you taught, and you taught about someone who was drowning, and that how to save them through and you're talking about discipleship, that your life, you're like a life preserver for them, that you're going to come alongside of them on their journey, and you're going to stay afloat together, and you're going to risk your

life for them. Yeah, you know, just says, jump off the cliff. Yeah. Now jump off the cliff, but you graduate to jumping off the cliff, you just have the parachute. Yeah. So once, once I heard neuroscience. Once I heard neuro over the cliff with them. You've got the parachute. So I was locked in once it was neuroscience. So

the staff into the your mindset, right? So you're explaining, you're being intentional. You're explaining what you know and what you don't know. Here's my intent, but I don't know what the plan is, things like that, right? So, so now you're inviting them into the space that you're at, and that's completely different from for them, right? Then that's a radical experience for them, because they are used to program performance, execution, delegated to right like here,

tell me what to do. My job is to show up and do the thing, which is an amazing thing in a volunteer, until you start to change the culture, and it's very disorienting. Then when that's the way it's been for decades,

going to be so easy. Because for us, we're like, yeah,

what is crazy? But what we realized a good way, was we thought everyone understood what we were saying until we did that exercise, and then what God highlighted was we have a whole younger generation that their definition of anything, maybe family, you know, or transparency, like everybody wants to be, oh, we want trust and transparency. And we're like, Okay, well, what does that mean to you? Oh, that you would just be honest with also that on, like, literally, no one

could define, no one could land. And when we finally did, it was like, Can I even do that? So bringing it back, we had to scale back and go, Okay, wait Lord, help us be able to do this? And how are we gonna? And we just it has to just be in us at this point, instead of making it again a mission statement or this or that, like

anything else is still ongoing, right? But the common phrase that I get, and I understand it, it happened this morning, is guys don't worry about that, that we don't need to worry about that, and they're like, You taught us this. Yeah, maybe don't worry about that. You taught us about excellence. You taught us about things need to be done a certain way. You taught us about timing. So what are we supposed to do? You trained us for this like we well, then ungrained yourself.

Then did I say that? Wait? Did I wait? Did I say that? Oh, I'm telling you something different. Yes. And that's hard, because it's been ingrained in them for some of them, 10 solid years, and they're watching. And the thing is, it was watching Sheldon, like, match his words, right? Once his actions started to match his words, there were some people were like, it's just easier to operate in law. Just do, tell me what to do, and I'll do it. But now it's like, Wait, we're gonna, we're gonna operate

in love. What does that look like? Well, there's still law and love. Okay, wait, what does that mean? Okay, we're gonna have to just show you. So whenever he would be you still are in our staff means transparent or vulnerable. And he's like, Hey, sorry. You know that's an old neural pathway. I'm really trying to relearn this, because I do want it to be excellent, but I also want you, what is your excellent? And let's What is it about the people, not the program, right?

And so once we started to to live that way, they were able to trust, right? And there's still a little residue of like, the fear, because that of the PTSD, what we would say, like, because, because of my reaction, but then how you respond to it. Now we quit. We are quick to like, hey, hey, let's, let's talk this out. Let's have this space. And a lot of times I'm just, I'm like, I'm in that space, and I'll ask certain questions. How did that make you feel? Okay? So I. Can we

acknowledge that that feeling is accurate, but is it true? And they be like, it's not true. Okay, so it's not true, but the feeling was accurate. And then there's confession, and then there's what we call like pono, and we bring it back, and okay, then we can move from there. The more times we do that, there's more trust now, right? And now they they can start to relearn and unlearn and experience new things and experience new revelations and and, yeah, we're still in it, but I don't think

we'll ever be out of it. I think this is just an ongoing thing, and it's our life, because we're humans and where people and things are, but you're

starting to name. And now you've got a couple cohorts into, you know, people going through the the the book, going through the material and learn just, you know, just learning the new thing. While you're you're also kind of ninja, recreating the culture. And you know, you're asking them to start making disciples. So it, it's, it's going through its next, its next season. What, what are you seeing? We're six and eight years into this adventure. What are you starting to see? I already

I'm supposed to disciple, yep. So that's what she does now. And her sister doesn't come to church, but she's discipling her. She gets to love her where she's at, and now, as a sister, she's not frustrated at her sister, because that's her journey. That's her sister's journey, and that came out of going through our cohort with huology, just the understanding of no as a disciple, you follow Jesus. You choose to follow Jesus, you choose to live changed, but now you want to

make a disciple maker. Now you come alongside of them, and you help them do what you do. You help them live changed lives and following Jesus and be changed by Jesus. That's that's all you're doing. So you, what you've been able to bring to us is simplicity, and we always say it, it's simple, but not easy, right? Yeah, it's not easy. That's why God keeps it simple, simple. And so I do see fruit. I see the excitement in the people, even those in our cohort. And we keep it to 10

people because it we're able to relate. We don't need the masses. So we're trying to do it in small pockets, so that they get it. We want to go deep. We don't need broad. We want to we like from the very beginning. Want to make sure we do this thing. Well, we don't need 1000 people. We just need 10. If we can love on these 10, we can help equip these 10, then we're good with that next cohort. Then,

because it becomes exponential, right? If they, if it's deeply caught, then even if those people don't stay in leadership, or don't stay at the church, yep, wherever they go, that's the point. They're they're going to do the same thing. They will be changed forever. To me, hearing your guys's story, it's the Jesus story, right? You know, you live, you live the fruit and and people want that fruit, right? Like you Sheldon,

you're like, Bunny is different. Why is she different? Yes, I want to know why she's different, because I like who she is. Now, you know. And so you keep asking questions, and you keep trying to find out, and then that just keeps spreading. Yeah, spreading, yeah.

One of the fruit that I have been able to witness is our younger cohort attendees, and knowing that they chose this one girl, she's like, I think I'm going to disciple I'm going to tell my grandma that I'm going to disciple her and wow, to think that we break that that mindset of only older can teach younger, and younger only can receive rather than teach. That, to me, is a huge hurdle, especially in our culture, because she she. Came in, she's like, I'm not really that great.

I was, I didn't have good grades in school, and I have a hard time reading. And you sure I'm I'm supposed to be in here. And I'm like, yes, yes, the Lord specifically said you. And she's okay. I don't know who I can disciple. I mean, maybe my younger brother, my sister anyway, for her to come back and say, I, because one of the exercises was to ask the Lord, and she's like, okay, let's just, let's just do it. Let's

try. Just try it. And for her to say, my I'm going to ask my grandma, and her grandma is someone who comes to church and will probably say, okay, yeah, let's I want to be a disciple maker, and to me, it's like that makes all the hard work worth it, and it gives me the hope that even when I'm not here anymore, that it continues exactly what Jesus did. I'm going to go and you guys are going to do great things, because my spirit is going to empower you. And I rely on that.

And I just am like, Okay, Lord, what do you want us to do? And he's like, do what I ask. Just go love my people, my sheep, and tell them about me and empower them, and I'm going to send the Spirit and and, and that makes me hopeful. And it's it made holding the rope for all those years worth it. I knew it was worth it because, well, that's why

because where are they now, right? If we had 200 people through those classes, we should have 200 discipleship Oh, 200 disciple makers. But we didn't. It ended, and that, that was it, and then they served. But this is perpetual. We're talking about. This is you're, you're making disciple makers. It is a lifestyle. This is an ongoing, continuous life. There is no ending, right? So I'm still being discipled. There's I'm still just today. Today, I caught myself and I said, I

said, Hey, that's a good idea. That's probably what I didn't think about. I didn't see from your perspective. Tell me about that, then they would tell me, this is what I see. I said, Awesome. Why don't you guys talk about what you just learned today, let me know how I can help, and then we can move on from there to me. That was that had nothing to do with the thing

we were fixing. What it had to do is, what it had to do with is I felt anger, I felt frustration, but then I'm being discipled by this person right now that my old neural pathway, I feel it, but my new neural pathway is now firing, so now I have to switch to this new neural pathway, and now I have to unlearn what I've always known to learn this new thing. How can I learn from what he just said? So I had to stop myself switch that neural pathway and intentionally listen

to what he was saying. So it is ongoing. It is continuous. I have an unbelievable team around me, right? Teams with others that they're going to call me on it, they're going to get in my face. Great team, yeah, and we give them permission speak to us too, because we're all friends, we have to be friends. Who we're we're this is our community. Yeah, right, so that's who we're going on this

journey with. This is who we're with. Everyone has something to bring, and we do it together, because it's not just one person telling everyone what to do. It's how do we partner with what God is doing in you? And how do we do this? Because It's he who sits on the throne, not us.

back. I when I felt that change, like, I can't go back. I can't go back to anything that's not shared leadership. I can't go back to something that feels like a burden, because I know that's not the Lord, right? I mean, we are talking six, eight years, right? And I tell people, it takes a long time and they want to program because that can produce results. Yeah. Within 12

weeks. And it's not like that, unfortunately, but let's say that there is, there's a person out there, and maybe they're a ministry leader, maybe they're just a person in their church, and they're contending for a community that makes disciples, an actual thing where we do it all together. How would you encourage them? Let's, let's, maybe, yeah, close with that. And like, what advice would you give them or encourage them?

Because even though you have positional authority, doesn't mean actually anybody listens to you or they do what you say, right? So just because you know, you could be the top dog or the senior pastor and say, This is what we're doing now, and no one goes with you, right? So it so where you are in the organization kind of actually doesn't matter all that much. Yeah, so to anybody, what? What would you say? What advice would you have, or encouragement?

will be so, so worth it. And the community that you'll see thrive, the reach like me, someone may never see you in that private space with Holy Spirit contending they don't have to, because that's not why we do it. We do it because the

Lord said so, and that is where the honor comes. And you're honoring the Lord, and you may not know why or how long, but when you're obedient, that's what the the blessings come, and I'm now witnessing things I never thought I all I wanted was for Sheldon to be nicer to me. That's all I want, unless you are right. I was like, bro, what? I was like, Lord, what are you doing? Why? Why? And he's like, you don't need to know why, how you're gonna hold this rope until I tell you let it go.

And when you let it go, the cells are gonna open up, and my wind's gonna blow and you're gonna see that. Don't worry about who's in leadership I was. Don't worry who's in charge. Don't worry about like I was in this room, this space in 2010 where the Lord told me that, and I was so frustrated. I'm like, I couldn't breathe, and I didn't know why I couldn't breathe in

this I was like, What is wrong with this church? Like I can't breathe, like it's so heavy, and the Lord's like, this is what I need you to do, and I need you to pull down the cells are going to come down, and there's the ship's not going to move, and you're going to hold the rope until I tell you. And I just contended for Sheldon, and I prayed, and I just sat and I said, Hey, Lord, what do you want me to do? Need you to pray, and you need to and you're going to honor me in that, not anyone

else, and no one's going to see you. Are you okay with that? Like no one's going to see you doing this? Are you okay with that? Yes, and I struggle long as he's nicer to me. No, no, I wasn't. That was a joke, but it was like, because we still did ministry, and I just remember Kay Lord, and it would constantly come back up and and I would have to do retreat to go spend time with Holy Spirit. Like, are you sure? Is this really what I'm supposed to do? Because, and then I would get

job offers. You know, when I would leave home, it would be like, I could be like, breathe. Oh, I can do who be, who I was supposed to be. And then the Lord's like, no, I need you to stay right there. I was like, Okay. And then whatever, the Lord's like, I'm going to work on you. Don't just look at everybody else. It's going to be you that I'm going to try to unpack all of these things. And I remember just holding on. And that was the vision. Gave me. Just hold on to the rope, and

you're gonna sit there now. You're gonna see other people do things, and you can't do anything because you're holding the rope, and you're gonna see Sheldon at the helm, and you're just gonna hold the rope until I tell you to let it go. And it was right before, like, think it's 2019 it's about 2019 it's coming to the end of 2019 when the Lord said, Okay, let go. And

I just let go. And it was like, it the winds came, and just our whole church just, and what was interesting about it, because right before pandemic too, and it was like, and now we're starting to see a different like, he's giving us different direction. And I can look back and go, oh, oh, that's what you are doing. And now I can encourage others. Hey, maybe the Lord's telling you to hold rope. Just hold that rope. Sit and when you let go, you watch what he does, and you get to be a

part of what God's doing. So be encouraged with. That because it is life changing, and people come to know Jesus, and you got to be a part of that.

says, did they work for you so? And he said that, I'm like, Oh, my goodness, are all these people that are around me like that because I'm the senior pastor and they must behave this way? Are they? Are they my friends? Or aren't they my friends? Because long ago, when I was in when I was a junior high Pastor, I was maybe 21 around there. While I was serving, one of the teenagers was acting up. Left the youth room. I went after. I said, Hey,

why aren't you listening? So we got into this squabble. And then she left with, you're not my dad. And then she walked away. I said, Hey, I may not be your dad, but I'm your friend, okay? And now we're still good friends today. She's like, 40 something years old. Anyway, the youth pastor told me, said, and he heard what I said. He said, I'm going to teach you something right now that will help you. You cannot be friends with people in ministry. Then the moment he said that, instantly I

felt the Lord hold that like guarded my heart. Oh, thank God. And said, don't listen to that. Don't listen because all I knew was to be friends with people in ministry. Another person told me you cannot hire your friends because there's a conflict of interest. So you cannot be friends with people on staff. Lonely at the top. And then that was the other one, just letting you know, when you get into this it's going to be lonely at the top those three moments. The first one was, don't listen to

that. Guard your heart. The second one was, why can't I Jesus had friends with him? The third one, when they said it's lonely at the top was then I don't want to be at the top. Why would I want to get to the top and be lonely? Who wants that? Right? So I'd rather be at the bottom with my friends than on the top right 100% yes. So if God calls me his friend. Why can't I call my coworkers my friends? Why can't I call people to ministry? My friends? Yeah,

ministry is hard. Do it with your friends. Do it with your friends. That's why we can continue to me the highest form and the highest honor of any relationship is friendship. Yeah, yep. God calls us friends. How much higher can we get in a totem pole of or a hierarchy of relational value, it has to be friendship. And the other thing is, like, it's lonely at the top. I mean, God doesn't even do it alone, right, right? You know, it's not biblical to be alone, like he can't even do it. Like, yeah,

there's the Trinity, yeah, right. And so, yeah, bad advice, and I'm glad you didn't take it for those who are listening and you're wondering, like you, you stay strong in relational value if it takes eight years, fight for it, fight for your relationships, fight for the value that you have. And when it goes bad, don't just forget about it and say, Okay, well, too bad. Like, learn something from it. And yes, as far as it depends on you be at peace with all people, but

that's the farthest you can actually go. You can't force people to be your friends. You can't force people to when there's betrayal, to now come together. And you must do this. You do the very best that you can when it comes to relational value. Other people are going to make their decisions too. You can't own everything that doesn't belong to you, or you

can't own things that doesn't belong to you. You can own what belongs to you, but if other people make their decisions, you can disciple and love from afar too, and just continue on with what bunny said. So you got to stay close to Jesus. That's the only way possible. The more we run to Jesus, if you look at a triangle, right, if you're on opposite ends, the more you run to Jesus, the closer you get to each other. So run to Jesus.

not a starting church, not a smaller church. They have different cultures, different challenges, but you can always come out here and visit, yes, my dear friends and so we love you. If you are interested in more about hoology, you can always check out whoology.co. That's W, H, O, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, we've got some resources. We've got an online class that you can have

for small groups. So it's a it's a Bible study and and Bunny you you know, you can get a reference if you want, and ask them you know how it works and how it you know what they like about it. So, but we just want to thank you for joining us today and yeah, be blessed. Go be out there with the Lord Aloha.