Career Growth and the MAGIC Framework with Carrie Fabris

So the guest today is Keri Fabris , who is the founder and chief reframer of CareerFrame , where she provides career executive coaching , leadership development , advising and facilitating , with a focus on team dynamics .

Prior to launching CareerFrame , she spent 20 plus years with companies like Google , travelocity , sabre and more , and in leadership for 15 plus years leading national sales and account management teams .

She uses tools like Clifton's StrengthFinder , emotional intelligence , situational leadership and various other frameworks , some of which we will discuss here today , to help leaders and teams thrive at effective communication that drives engagement , energy and accountability toward impactful results . You've got a great background , keri , so thank you for joining us today .

And I think it's going to be the former right , so , but I'm looking forward to talk to you about your career growth and having you share some of your recommendations from your experience , both in the seats , if you will , as well as being a coach , mentor , whatever . So why don't we start there ?

One of the things that you a term that you used with me when we first talked was this concept of return on energy , which I think I was having a hard time articulating what you mean by that . So why don't we start there ? What do you mean by that , and how can our listeners , whether they're individual contributors or people managers , apply this ?

Say today , tomorrow , right , this week .

Energy is really important to me personally , and I'm you know how we feel so different when our energy is high , when our energy is low . So started playing with this concept and , if you think about it , it's very similar to an ROI .

Okay , so we're all familiar with ROI and that's primarily a concept and method that is going to help us assess financial performance and return . And so ROE return on energy is a concept or method that's used more for assessing your energy level or the worth or the reserve of energy that you're using towards something .

So , for example , if we are faced with doing a task , committing to a decision , making a choice , most of us innately are going to have a feeling that either we like this or we don't like this .

Sometimes there's a I'm not sure I need more context , I don't know enough about it and , as a certified Gallup Clifton strengths coach , I want to emphasize the importance of playing to one's strengths . And so that was that mean to play to our strengths . It means that we're doing things that we innately enjoy because they energize us versus drain us .

Um , we'll get energized doing certain things , but we will also get drained by doing certain things , and so how we apply this concept is kind of simple , and let me set this up by saying your vibe attracts your tribe . You ever heard that saying ?

Okay , so kind of check in with yourself . How does this task decision situation make you feel ? Does it excite you , motivate you or drain you from an energy perspective ? If it feels exhausting , before you even begin , you probably want to pause and assess .

Second step is identifying the impact , so kind of evaluating what's the potential payoff for what I'm about to do with this task , commitment or choice . Is it going to move you forward ? Is it going to strengthen a relationship ? Is it going to create something meaningful ? If the outcome's valuable , it's probably worth the energy .

If it's not , you want to reconsider . And then the third step is really going to balance the cost , or consider what it's going to cost you from a time , effort , emotional bandwidth , money perspective , and can your energy be spent better elsewhere , or is this the right path ?

So if the investment's too high for a little gain , you want to look for alternatives . If the investment short or long-term which I'm sure we'll get to talking about that as far as living in a world of immediate gratification these days then you might want to stay the course . And then the fourth step is execute or eliminate .

So if the energy is well spent , if it fuels the growth and success moving forward , execute it . If it depletes you and you cannot feel good and justify the return , you let it go . And you don't want to get it .

So I mean , are you talking about because I think , I think , I think a lot of our listeners like me might think , oh , when you talk about re-eternity , that means like I'm going to be the cheerleader , I'm going to be extroverted , like extroverted Is . I mean , is that what you're talking about or is this something like ?

So it's not necessarily dependent on extrovert , introvert , because extroverts and introverts , regardless of which category you fall in , you're still a human , you're still uniquely you , and energy lands differently for you , Sure ?

So , you know , kind of stereotypical introvert needs time away from people , quiet , alone time to decompress and kind of build that energy back up . That's just that depends on the person .

Extroverts might get more energy from walking in a room , socializing and meeting new people , but I'm talking more about each person's innate feeling of am I feeling energized today on various levels , various categories , or am I depleted ?

So , like you and I are both in the DFW area and the weather is like we're living in London right now , and I love , I love London , one of my favorite cities .

And there's another bit and I think it was the third step you described where you're kind of doing a mental calculation . It almost sounds like within ROE that process , you're doing an ROI right Like a mini one right Because it's a balance the cost . Yeah , yeah , yeah , it's a juice worth the squeeze , right .

Almost all this , and like this is a lesson I've had to teach my kids . Right , we all have to do things we don't really want to do sometimes . So how does that factor into this , right ? Do you just kind of like figure out , okay , what is it ?

What level of energy do I need to put towards this that I don't really want to do , because I have to do it , but I don't want to end up not be able to do the things I do want to do .

So there's something that I say often to my clients , which is pain is the road to joy . Unfortunately , most times I have yet not saying it's not there , but I've yet to find a situation where you got joy without pain . So it is assessing the whole cycle Again .

A lot of us live in this immediate gratification I want to feel good right now , and a lot of times that's not the case . We have to be able to look to the future and just say can I see this paying off ? And being responsible sucks sometimes . Yeah , it does . It's not fine . You have to be responsible .

If we can see what that responsibility can lead to in the future and it's a good thing , then that's where we tap into resilience , we tap into courage , we tap into growth , mindset , all of these things to get there . Some things are going to be pretty immediate . You might think , oh my gosh , this sounds amazing . It's totally my jam . I love this stuff .

Let's go . You focus on it , you act , you get the great results you want the conclusion you were hoping for Everyone's happy , amazing , immediate , aren't we ? Other times again , you've got to see the importance in the future and it's the long , sometimes hard work ahead to achieve that desired return .

But you're still going to invest that energy because there's a higher purpose that's pulling you to do so .

Right , it takes time to invest in that .

Oh my gosh , instant you started this last week , I'd like to buy you for $1 billion , like that doesn't work that way . So that's a perfect example of investing the energy for that hopefully high return later down the road . And then there you know again there's other quick wins Like I really want a burger right now .

I'm going to get in my car and go get a burger . I'm going to take my energy and go drive down the street and you get that burger and you're eating it . You're so happy . So it just depends . And what I love about this concept is you literally can apply it to absolutely everything .

Just to maximize your time , your energy , what you're focusing on and and and . When we do this , it ensures that we're staying at that high energy level . A whole lot of not awesome stuff follows when our energy is low . Yeah , our mind goes in not great places .

We're talking about predominantly right and the , and I talk about mich , and so this is when I encourage people to stop and kind of do an RPM , which is what's the result I'm going for , what's the purpose , what's the massive action I need to take , and it's once you understand why you want something so badly .

The next step is patience and making sure that each day , you're doing something that's moving you forward . Um if you are not doing things that are moving you forward and you're just expecting it to land in your lap . You know there might be some growth opportunity there to think about this differently .

Um , as I said , I think with the Maybe a little bit of adulting .

We remember before there were cell phones and before there was the fax machine , you had to go to the library to look up something . Yeah , a microfiche , microfiche , yeah .

So even when we're thinking about our energy , we can do an ROE process on the thought about energy and that gratification .

So I was thinking I'm doing something that could go quickly and it turns out to be taking two , three , four times as long because I dropped something . It splatters everywhere , Something breaks right ?

So if you're just spinning your wheels , working on something , it's not in your strength zone , or if you're a leader and you have someone on your team that you can move something to delegate it .

Just give something to someone that you trust , take it off your plate , you know it's taken care of and you're going to reserve your energy instead of like an exhausting email thread back and forth . Okay , that's another thing . Just like back and forth , back and forth .

Just go old school , pick up the phone , discuss everything for about five minutes , and that too is an immediate ROE , because there's clarity , we got understanding , we're not having any emails on this topic .

And another very simple application of ROE that I would love to see more people take advantage of , and a lot do not hurts my heart a little bit which is taking breaks throughout the day .

I recently I'm not sure what took me so long to do this , but last year I moved all of my 60 minute sessions to 50 minute sessions .

Dramatic impact , positive impact , Like I would look at my calendar and perhaps some of you can relate to this and it is non-freaking-stop Zoom after Zoom after Zoom after Zoom , or team after team after team to call after call . It's just like non-stop . Stop , Zoom after zoom after zoom after zoom , or team after team after team to call after call .

It's just like nonstop . And it was causing me stress just to look at the visual of it . And just changing to those 15 minute sessions , that gives me 10 minutes to stand up , walk away , refill the water , shake it off , prepare for the next meeting , decompress from the last meeting .

I almost feel guilty about this because I know all this right , yeah , I'm somewhat familiar with at least was with brain research and how well , first off , how little we know , but how much we're learning in the last few years and they , every time we talk about this right Breaks , not multitasking , like all these things are really well known to be good habits to

do , and I still am terrible about it . Just like people are going to see me drinking water here . It's about the only time I drink water through the day because I just simply forget I get busy .

I got stuff to do and it's a different concept to think you could actually do more if you took breaks throughout the day . So yeah , I'm here to help you figure that out , michael . Thank you , I appreciate it .

What's really hard is to to to hand this off to somebody . You can't just go go do it Right , unless you happen to have somebody who works for you , you know can do it

. Do it If it's something , a new skill or new things that they have to learn . Somebody who works for you , you know , can do it . Do it If it's something , a new skill or new things that they have to learn . You have to teach them . So you have to invest in that . Right , yeah , that's right , yeah , yeah .

So the adage of I'll just do it myself , because it'll be faster than do it myself , versus teaching someone how to do it , and then you're just stuck in this loop . So yeah , so I do encourage people if they have trust issues , do not delegate anything to that person if you don't trust them , because it's got to be like hand it off and let go .

Otherwise you're annoying , like how about now ? Did you get it done ? Well , how about now ? Are you doing it right ? And now it becomes micromanagement , and no one wants that , not that I have met so far .

And maybe micromanage is not this like constant follow-up , but more like here's the list of things you need to do .

And when there's high ability or high ability , low willingness , it's usually insecurity , so we encourage them . And when there's high ability and high willingness , we trust them . Yeah , that was a boom , like flash of situational leadership right there in like 10 seconds or less .

So another concept you and I talked about is this , uh , magic framework , which I know is an acronym . Acronym , um , what , what is that and how is it ? Maybe a little bit about like just high level , what is that ?

Maybe is it tied to what we just talked about , the roe , or is it kind of a different concept altogether yeah , so there definitely is some similarities .

And how do you know if you are doing that , when you can take inventory on five categories . Doing that , when you can take inventory on five categories , so it's mindset , accountability , generosity , intention and courage . And if you have all of these and they're also coming from a positive place of strengths , then you're definitely bringing magic to your team .

So it's a fun concept to work with . Do you want me to go deeper ?

And so it's again that same thing when you're putting something out , you're going to get back that reflects what you're putting back . So , when it comes to mindset , absolutely figure out your ROE when it comes to how you're thinking and all the energy you're spending thinking about things . And is it positive thinking , is it negative thinking ?

And when I say positive , I don't mean jazz hands , everything's awesome . That's not realistic . It's more of having this optimism , and so it's growth mindset versus a fixed mindset , it's open versus closed . It's , you know , realizing that our attitudes are contagious and it impacts the culture around us .

So having that strong , encouraging mindset is really important as a leader , especially the A . So showing accountability , and this is having a high say-do ratio .

It's doing what you say you will do , it's being reliable , it's responsible , it's role modeling , that for other people and holding others accountable as well , and so accountability and productivity go hand in hand .

And so nothing drives me more nuts than a leader that basically do as I say , not as I do , and it's like why would people want to follow you if you're not going to show that you're accountable as well ? And then generosity , like you said , is kind of an interesting one . This is really where emotional intelligence lives .

So this is about being generous with your compassion and with the human side .

Okay , so if you know empathy is I work with a lot of leaders who actually have low empathy , according to their assessment , and always tell them I'm like doesn't mean you don't care , it means that it's uncomfortable , it's not , it drains you to get in the boat with that person and their issue . You can still be generous with . I see you , are you okay ?

Is there something I can help you with ? I'll let you know if I can or cannot deliver to that . And really being that compassionate leader , it's also keeping in mind . I kind of cringe whenever I hear someone say remove all emotion from this conversation , because humans cannot do that .

Humans cannot physically , neurologically , all of the things cannot remove all emotion . But we can use our emotion intelligently and we can be generous with our time and our energy that we're giving to somebody , as long as we're seeing again a return on that .

Energy Leaders sometimes they put up with too much for too long from poor performers and that's a drain on energy . So it's being generous to a point , but not to a fault .

Maybe that's what you're getting to , but I always think it's funny , because we've talked about trust right and trusting in others , but I have always said , like , trust also requires grace right , so when someone you know doesn't live up to what you had expected them to do , there's some grace to a point , right , that's that like .

I love that these all go together . Right , the accountability and the generosity sound like they would be opposites , but they can . I think they the way you look . You need to look at them as things that can work together .

And so , having grace , giving grace , generosity , you know , things like the patience , things like that you don't have to really like the person . It's more of just taking the time to appreciate your generosity could even be I'm going to step away and I'm going to let you go , do you ?

So you're being generous with not doing this to them like rah , rah , rah right and verbally attacking . Just be generous and step away . So yeah , so I could absolutely see how grace and generosity can go hand in hand . Got it Okay ? The I in magic is intention .

So I've always led a remote team , dating back to 2007 , when I started my leadership career at Google and I was in Dallas , leading a team in Atlanta , and there was no this , there was no video then , right , like we had go-to meeting where you want to see my desktop , but there wasn't the video piece . Right , and you had to be intentional .

And when COVID hit , there were so many people and companies freaking out like I can't connect with my coworker . Yes , you can . Yes , you can , because actually we have video now , like I can see you , whereas back in the day I either had to email you or call you .

And so intentional leadership is not believing and I'm just going to call them excuses like that . And this is coming from someone who's an extrovert and I love being around people- Yep , same here . So the extroverts ? I get it , you're like , but I need my people , I understand , and it's an excuse to just well , I have to get on video .

Oh yeah , you do , it's being intentional . So it's doing everything with purpose and um and showing that you care and you're willing to go a little bit above and beyond to make an impact , even if that means I'm going to FaceTime you right now so I can see your face you know it's it's uh this being intentional .

It's being the person others want to follow as being able to have respectful , hard conversations and also be able to motivate people and encourage people along the way . Um , courage is is such a valuable character trait for leaders and just being a courageous leader , those are the people that others want to follow .

So bringing magic to the team as a leader is being mindful of your mindset , driving accountability , being generous with your time and your energy . As long as someone doesn't take advantage of it , you still have to protect your ROE , being intentional and having that courage .

That says , hey , I think you're taking advantage of me , maybe not that explicitly right , but I think that's it's really . It's a fascinating sort of way of thinking about it . I love how they all play together . Okay , so go ahead , go ahead .

It's not a title on a piece of paper , on a work chart with direct reports , it is simply influence , and so , as long as you're influencing people around you , that is leadership , and so you can bring your own magic to the team using the same framework regardless if you have direct reports or in a leadership role or not .

But also , just to think , I happen to work in places that very kind of very hierarchical , um , some more formal and some more informal , but I think it's it's . You know , one of the things I've tried to do when I have been in sort of the you know , manager roles is to try to provide an environment where people can be leaders as well , right ?

So , whether that's helping them to learn new skills , putting them in positions to test their courage , right . So just tell you things that are hard , that they may not be comfortable doing , but it will be beneficial for them in the long run . So I'm totally with you on that .

So , all of our listeners out there , just make sure that if you're taking notes , take notes whether you're a people leader or not . 100% , 100% Okay . So I'm curious , just yeah , cause he brought up COVID , one of the things that I thought the whole , like all the lockdowns and work remote and all that had . Was it really exposed some of that ?

Like , we are all human , human , right , we all have emotions , we all have shit going on behind us , you know , whether we we bring it to work or not , and I think I think that's actually gonna , in the long run , going to be a very good thing , right , because I think then , as a leader , you can , it gives you the I don't think a lot of leaders felt

like they could think about that with their team .

Right , it had to be a business , so there's this box that you could work in , and the same for the people coming to work , right , you know they feel like , oh my my home life stuff , right , is is my kitchen's , not my office yeah , I can't , I can't bring that in , or my kids are , you know , going off the rails or whatever .

Um , or you get more extreme , like we just had a miscarriage and I don't want to tell anybody about it , like things like that that are like , uh , it feels like some of that got brought out into the open , which I think ultimately could it could be a good thing . Um , I do think for a lot of people it was a little harder to make those connections right .

I , I'm with you , right , I think it's a bit of an excuse . I think you know how tools can enable that and you have to put in a little extra effort .

Yeah , the downside I've seen and I'm continuing to see is like it's really hard for some people to separate , right Cause .

So , like , yeah , you can see my background , right , I'm in the middle of my house , that's where I have my virtual studio , and it's like you know , if I'm up here I'm working , like I just keep going until I realize , oh , it's dark out and I hear people downstairs make dinner , waiting for dinner . So , like , are you seeing some of the same things ?

Are you seeing that with your clients ? And like , are they dealing with some of this stuff and how is this framework going to help them with that ? As far as separating , Well separating and I think , as we've talked a little about , yeah , that separation part I think is really tough for some people .

It's definitely seen that with my clients as more people are coming back to the office at a minimum , you know , three days a week . There's definitely a discipline . There's an intentional discipline between separating and turning things off . You know we are 100% responsible for ourselves . We control what we do , what we say , what we think , how we feel .

This is a hard concept for some people to wrap their brain around , but no one can make you feel any way . You choose to feel that way . Yeah , if you want more information on how that works , listen to man's search for meaning by victor frankl and you will learn you . You know what I'm saying Michael .

A same way , you could add a certain move your kitchen table somewhere , put a blind you know one of those little stackable blind things around it to separate it . Could you change ? You know , instead of it being the table , can you move to a different part of the of your apartment , of your house , something like it is ?

There's a discipline and an intention between making sure you have the right environment , because , again back to ROE yeah , are you ? Is your energy up ? Are you having a good return on your energy based on the environment you're in ? Yeah , and at home , you control that environment , usually now , if you have roommates . There's a discussion that needs to happen .

If you're living at home with parents , get , have a conversation . But you still are in control of creating that environment for you and so I think that's interesting .

It was really interesting to me that he , he , he said the thing that happens and the rest of the like my wife and the girls know , like when I put on the uniform , right , I'm now in work mode , right , and don't like , yes , I'm just that I'm in , like me , work mode , and then when I come home , first thing I do change clothes and and then sometimes take

a few minutes to to sort of to get ready . And it's like it was interesting to me because I've always been like .

I grew up in a time where , you know , suit and tie was the norm , and so for me , even when I started working remotely , or even when places got to be casual or business casual , I still like for me , if I don't get up , take a shower , shave , get dressed like I'm working A routine , yeah , yeah , it's , it's , it's , I think that's so .

Are those kinds of things helpful , you think ?

You know it , there is some psychological thing that makes an impact , um , you know , my husband and I , whenever he works from home too , so whenever we have a good presentation , we stand like I'm standing right now , um , because you just it's , it's physical , it's a powerful position to be in .

So it's changing that physiology , changing what you're focused on , change your language , it's changing the state that you're in , and clothes is part of it .

So I'm so glad you said that , because I was going to give a similar example of when you know if you're with someone or you're just like , and it doesn't feel good when you leave that person , change clothes , do something to almost like shed off what you had in that situation , take a shower , rinse all that stuff off , like . Those things matter .

And it's also sometimes good to um , every morning I'll just write in a journal and it is stream of consciousness and I don't reread it because it probably would not make a lot of sense , and it is just clearing my head .

This book was put into my hands and so that's what I started doing , which is the morning pages of just writing through the consciousness and I don't know what it means and what it says and don't read it again , and so there are just ways to get us mentally in a better place , but it definitely takes discipline , some structure , routine , and even if you're

someone you're like Carrie , I don't like structure .

And I've heard of others too , where it's like part of why they do that is that they're not using energy to think about what am I going to wear today . Right , so they're using that energy towards other stuff .

Yes , term is just in general , like I think it undermines it , but , um , cause , I think a lot of skills can be , can be learned , even if they're not . Quote hard skills , right . What , what , what do you ?

They are essential and they are learnable and they're measurable competencies that are going to help us with collaboration and decision making , et cetera , and the idea that these skills are like purely innate is kind of a common misconception , I think .

So some individuals may have a natural inclination towards certain interpersonal abilities right , and research has shown that with intentional practice , coaching , feedback , we can all significantly improve in these areas of , again , communication , active listening , conflict resolution I like to talk about having constructive conflict and people are like wait what Well , I'm a big

fan of maybe you've heard of it crucial confrontations . Crucial confrontations . I think we talked about that the first time we spoke .

. So , just as we invest time in developing technical skills okay With taking a class to get better on coding or , you know , technology , innovation , whatever we can develop these soft skills , or let's just call them human skills . Okay . So I think human skills might sound- how about just call them skills ?

They're just skills , necessary skills , and we can do that , again , through intention and training and coaching and just real world application and awareness and practice . And I think the more you know , more we do that , the better , because more research is coming out that EQ is a higher indication of success at work than IQ , and you know it's , it's .

It's important and again , especially as the workforce gets younger , the younger folks I don't want to call them kids , but younger , younger people are caring about human skills more than the Gen Xers , the Boomers , those generations , the Millennials , the Gen Zs , the Gen Y , I don't even know what generation we're on now , but those generations are bringing this amazing

, refreshing look on human skills . And that's also why there was the mass exodus during COVID . The whole people leaving it was because the world is coming to an end . Why am I giving all my energy to a company that doesn't see me , hear me , appreciate me ? And that's where a lot of people left their jobs .

That's interesting , yeah , so the human skills are crucial to success and organizational health .

Yeah , If you won't do something and it makes me uncomfortable , it's a drain again , not a good ROE . They don't do it . At least explore that whole thing versus just going . Oh , that's not me . I could never learn that you can , you won't because it is a low ROE and that's okay . But let's just call it what it is .

Right , if you try you may lose , but at least you'll have tried and you can . You know it's like . So I don't want to get to the end of , you know , my life and go . I wish I had done Totally .

Yeah , so , so so many people say they have a fear of failure .

It is here to teach us an incredible lesson that we're supposed to get from that failure . And if we have a fear of failure and we just hang our hat on that , we're essentially saying we're afraid to grow , we're afraid to grow , we're afraid to learn .

And again , don't mean not to sound harsh , it's just that that's just how that lands and this is where the magic happens . Speaking of magic , the magic happens outside of our comfort zone .

We've probably all seen that visual right , like here's a little circle , the arrow points over here and like this is where all the magic happens and it's out of our comfort zone . And so when we fail , if we look at failure as a teacher , we look at fear as a teacher as well . Fear gets louder the longer we avoid doing something .

Sometimes we're going to be freaking awesome . Sometimes we're going to be we're just going to have to sit in the suck for a minute . But there is a lesson that all of us can learn in all of those facets of life , and so fear of failure .

I have fun with people who tell me that I'm like okay , I come here , let me , let me help you , let me help you understand that failure is is actually doing something for you , not against you . So I just wanted to share that , yeah .

Finding support system to go through whatever that pain is , you will get , all of us will get to the other side and get to the joy , and then we'll look back at all the things we learned along the way .

So if folks want to learn more about you or what you're talking about and that kind of stuff , what's the best way for them to do that ?

So I'm going to just start doing this and having fun so you can connect with me on LinkedIn . If you connect with me on LinkedIn , please tell me that you heard me here . So I'm like who is this person ? Cause I don't accept all um , all invitations , cause I'm like I don't know who this person is .

But if you tell me you know you heard me on the podcast , then I certainly will want to invite you into my community and let you look around on my little videos . But thank you for having me . I definitely had an amazing ROE personally .