Watch Groups Are Slimming Down – Brand Exits, Consolidation and a Return to Focus

you know like to me to use a really bizarre metaphor it's like Zenith is is like I I love you and we need to get a divorce but like I think you're an incredible person this just wasn't the right match you know I mean maybe yeah maybe you know if we run with that metaphor to Bauman Mercier it's like we never should have gotten married anyway like what were we doing yeah you know this is open work a look inside the watch industry a podcast from collective

horology I'm Gabe Reilly co-founder of collective and I'm Asher Afghan co-founder of collective collective horology is an independent watch retailer based in Southern California and we carry a wide range of independent watches including Ming, Atelier Wen, Carl Suki, Enzone and more to learn more about us and check out our available inventory visit collectivehorology.com a few notes on

Ming, notes on Atelier Wen, Atelier Wen, Carl Suki, Carl Suki, Ming recently reintroduced both the Bluefin and Uni dive watches they are currently available at least and these are watches that have been obviously well regarded beloved high in demand and they've been reintroduced for 2026 they're of course available at collectivehorology.com and then Atelier Wen likewise they have just released it's technically their 2025 millesme version of the perception with

a beautiful petersite dial but that is available to order now at collectivehorology.com that has a limited window for ordering so if you're into the perception if you're into petersite if you are into these watches they will be available through Atelier Wen and through us until February 5th the evening of at

least in the United States because there are international time zones that get crossed with that release and then finally Carl Suki Enzone we recently

just published a watches of the watches of Carl Suki Enzone and that one was a fun one to record we talked a little bit about the history of the brand but really focus the modern brand the design philosophy that that drives it and what just makes those watches so so cool so beguiling so original in their take so that's available of course on our YouTube channel and it's also available in podcast format you can just search for the watches of podcast from

collective horology on your podcast platform of choice so lots of action to start 2026 and speaking of action there is something of musical chairs going on

in the watch industry and you know this was something that I think it came up in our 2024 watch industry predictions yep when we predicted brand consolidation and sort of brand reshuffling so in particular some of the major players in the industry holding companies looking to shed some brands and and sell them off and I think at the time we said like this is probably about the moment in the industry where things like this start to happen because the industry had

been on sort of this multi-year decline at that point in time but we also said oh my gosh does the Swiss watch industry move at a glacial pace of course yes it does so here we are at the beginning of 2026 and we really have the first kind

of major move here which is Richemont has shed Balm and Mercier and they have sold them to an Italian luxury group the Dimani group traditionally they've been more focused on jewelry they own a number of jewelry brands but they do also in the last 20 years they've added watch brands and they've added some watches to their jewelry brands as well but they will be taking on Balm and Mercier there's a lot to discuss and about how that's happening in the

logistics of it but we're starting to see this see this happen did it surprise you it took this long no no I mean look business obviously I think in especially the corporate world is lagging not leading so it would take a fair amount of time for some of the things that we thought might happen to happen because that prediction was 16 18 months ago and if we go back to the reason that we made that prediction it was tied to redundancy in the corporate watch world a

lot of it was okay like let's look at Richemont right you got Balm and Mercier at that entry price point of several other brands that entry price points watch groups could example this right with with Tissot and Hamilton and a dog pile in the the kind of mid-range yeah all kind of were in this sense the entry level yeah all kind of competing for the same the same piece of that part of the the the collecting puzzle admittedly those are very different watch brands

with very different personalities no doubt about it but they're competing in that sort of sub $5,000 range Balm and Mercier is also kind of an interesting

brand in the sense that you have to have a lot of respect in this case for Richemont because they tried Lord knows they tried yeah you know they tried both from a product standpoint like the Balm and Mercier Riviera review some of the newer Rivieras are pretty cool yep a couple years ago and almost half a decade ago they tried spinning off like or creating a spin-off and just hope exactly yeah they tried you know so they they really they did it but I you know

and it's it's easy to sort of sit back and say oh they should on this they should on that in the end I think it just sort of demonstrates that brand just never had the juice to do what it needed to do for it to have a seat at the corporate table and if you look at what Richemont soon if I were sitting in some of the chairs that that Richemont leadership are doing I think this is the right idea you know they've clearly been putting their effort and their

energy into the higher-end you know just your Likud is definitely going through a bit of a renaissance you know Panerai it Lord knows needs it Longa has you know you put aside all the quibbling around the edges like that brand has grown quite significantly in terms of average price point and in terms of its demand from it from a new watch standpoint and of course Vacheron has done an amazing job of turning that brand around into the powerhouse that is

right now so you can see the focus forget Cartier of course and how did you forget Cartier how could I forget which of course represents significant percentage of the total revenue of Richemont so when you look at those brands and then you say Balmain Mercier you can see why they might say you know what it might make sense for us to excise this from the portfolio bring in some significant capital to help us grow the rest of the brands and this won't

make a meaningful impact on our bottom line yeah I mean so one question for you on this we talked about the sort of the the dogpile and I think in broad terms with the industry considers the mid-range these are watches between one and five thousand dollars and Balmain Mercier competes in there there aren't a lot of Richemont brands that really compete squarely in there I mean IWC drifts into there Jaeger can drift into there so much anymore but but really I

mean Balmain was the sort of the entry-level mid-range brand for Richemont so it's not like there's a dogpile within Richemont and Balmain Mercier couldn't find its its footing within Richemont I think the challenge for them is that is the toughest segment in the market now look that's not true I mean I think that they compete I think in that segment also was Montblanc oh god yeah we'll talk more about Montblanc in a little bit sure you know the the

the ice divers and the yes they're in that segment absolutely yeah for sure yeah and they seem to those seem to have some more traction and then then Balmain Mercier but Balmain Mercier sense right I mean take yourself out of the watch collector's fear straight for a dive watch from a luxury brand you've heard of there you go yeah but yeah Balmain Mercier one of the reasons I think it went I read in the reporting it went to Daimani was the brand or Dame

Damiani Damiani sorry Damiani is that is a it's a brand that has strength in the Italian market now also I believe the distributor in the market for the watch and interesting okay so I I don't think this was a foolish acquisition this is clearly an acquisition by a brand that or I'm sorry a luxury group that has a very strong belief in what they're buying into and and probably thinks that they can do a better job of it if they were in control yeah so what one thought

I had about that is like when I heard like okay it's going to a buyer in the Italian market it's going to a buyer that has a stable of jewelry brands does Balmain Mercier sort of become like a baby Bulgari that was my first my first thought about that really well like you know I think a lot of people when they think about Bulgari certainly I do if you if I close my eyes and I think of a Bulgari watch I think about the Octo Finissimo and then if I think about

Balmain Mercier and and like the Riviera for instance I could see that with a more Italian design sensibility a more sort of jewelry design sensibility you could end up taking this brand into more of sort of a fashion and jewelry direction and it could it could round out that portfolio I don't know how you could the Balmain to the point you and I were talking about I don't know how you take the Balmain Mercier brand and just put it under different ownership and

expect it will perform better well you need to change the product like Bulgari did I mean they've made massive changes to their product line which drove the appeal of their watches Parmigiani is another great example of a brand that rethought their their product strategy and their kind of design codes and has had great success with that so I wonder if Balmain Mercier in in different hands gets a fresh start from a product I mean the devil's in the details here because

you know you can't just like excise a brand like that cleanly from a giant holding company like a Richemont it won't be excised cleanly there's a transition period here well and part of that may very well be that a lot of the calibers leveraged by those brands exactly Val Fleurier exactly and for those who don't know Val Fleurier is the is a movement manufacturer that's owned by Richemont makes movements for everyone from gosh everyone really I mean

from Panerai to IWC to Balmain Mercier I believe if I'm not mistaken even on some of the entry-level watches from from Vachon so you can't just cut that out and then there's all sorts of interesting questions to you like what happens to the retail network that will yeah there's a retail network there's the people the sales folks Corp on the corporate side in the field around the world the employees period yeah yeah exactly so I'm sure there is a Balmain

Mercier boutique of some variety somewhere in the world so it's it's an interesting question and I think it'll be a fascinating a fascinating look into what it means for a holding company to part ways with a brand that was been fully integrated yeah and as part of this there's like a 12-month or

apparently at least a 12-month period where Richemont will continue to provide transition services so logistics back office all these sorts of things you have to wonder if they're more long-term agreements in place for access to movements or other parts I mean don't forget not only does Richemont supply many of its own movements they also have their own foundry yeah so they supply a lot of their you know cases and case materials and things like that so there's

a lot that goes into this the other thing that sort of set this move up sort of the first chess move for Richemont is that Richemont has had a lot of speaking musical chairs a lot of management changes over the last couple years particularly within the watchmaking Maisons and the current CEO of Richemont who assumed the the mantle a couple years ago there no I'm sorry Jean-Claude Lambert was the former CEO yeah he's now LLC he's back at JLC but

the current CEO of Richemont split up their what they had basically a centralized organization for their watchmaking Maison so they reported into I think it was like a specialist watchmaker group that then reported up to the CEO and one of the first moves the the new CEO whose name escapes me mate was basically broke that group up and said no each Maison is now reporting to the CEO directly and responsible for their own P&L it's not going to be

rolled up into into this group and these things can't just sort of be painted over and so that I think left one Bauman Mercier in a place where to your point within the group it's relatively exposed yeah and then to it sets it up because what you're starting to do there corporately and in the organization structure of the company you're starting to undo a lot of the things that ties any given brand into the overall corporate structure that

prior to like 2020 2019 the concept of like Richemont as a holding company was way more on paper than it was in practice you know and this is true of many like holding companies like this where it's like yeah sure we own you and yes you roll up to us and the whole thing but operationally essentially these are all independent companies operating separately you know and I always sort of had this question in my mind about like well that seems like a

missed opportunity right like why if I if I'm say if I am a salesperson at longa and a guy walks in the front door and he says hi my name is Gabe Riley you know I would love to be able to plug him into a CRM and then find out much to my joy and surprise these you sure as long a client you know like there are massive advantages not just from data mining but also from client service around a holding company structure when you roll that back it's not just a question of

P&L it's also a question of like client service because I'm sure listeners here have had the experience of being a major client of a Panerai or a major client of like Vacheron or whatever and then you go into a Jaeger LeCoultre and you're like hi you know I have invested significantly in Richemont they're like your name is I'm sorry your name is Richard Mont yes yeah like what what now no idea exactly they're completely irrelevant and it's one of those things

where it's like if you set up separate P&Ls and you do decentralize that way it might make sense to make that you make the brands into the fit the fighting betta fish that might drive to higher revenue but it's not in service of clients one thing I will say we've seen or let me rephrase that in fairness it it's not as in service of clients as it could be yeah I think you're you're making a trade-off sure right one of the trade-offs could be like no we want to

have our brands or amazons as they call them be more independent so they can really have their own identity and do less of what swatch does which is like forcing brands into particular price positionings and territories you sell that now yeah exactly and the beatings will continue until morale improves but that's a good chestnut so there I do think that's a benefit and and like we said you know every company has to decide in which ways they're gonna suck

and I think the trade-off here is like well we want to give these brands our own identity and their own creativity and I'll say from our own experience we've worked with and talked to many Richmond watch brands in in our in our travels sure and I think what we found is and obviously we've done collaborations with a number of them but you better believe you know we've met with others we've proposed ideas to others we've had you know encounters

with other executives or people for any number of reasons from these different watchmaking Maisons and culturally they are extremely different you know IWC has a very different culture from Mont Blanc has a very different culture from Jaeger and and very different culture from Vacheron yeah these are all brands in one way or another we've we've spoken to we've never spoken to the good folks at Balmain Mercier however go figure go figure and so what you have is these

organizations are truly extremely different culturally and I think you and I you know we worked corporately at big companies that held multiple brands and you know like when I worked at when I worked at Facebook you know I worked at Instagram and Instagram had like its own culture that was sort of separate from Facebook and like prided themselves on it but like not really and you know there are other brands within that company that had like their own culture

but not really and I was so I was sort of expecting that you know in our dealings with different brands from Richmond and I'll tell you they may have some of the same back-end systems and things like that but culturally these these brands are very very different and you know maybe that's for better or worse but that's that's a trade-off you make here now speaking of different companies in different cultures let's talk a little bit about LVMH and there

is a similar sort of and let's be clear this is a rumor and it's a rumor that LVMH has denied but there's a similar rumor surrounding LVMH and Zenith in particular that LVMH is shopping the brand and this has been reported in a number of places I believe it was reported initially last year by AWP which is a Swiss news agency it's been reported in the business of fashion and in a number of other trade publications so this is this is out there again LVMH

denies this but the reporting is essentially that LVMH has taken steps to explore the sale of Zenith and it's being driven by Zenith's financial performance now again LVMH denies all this but of course I would conjecture you know if you were exploring this and selling a looking at selling a brand for all sorts of reasons not the least of which is just how long and laborious a process like this can be and how much can unfold in the intermediary steps

you'd probably deny it as yeah although I think we we do need to be careful that while Baum and Mercier and Zenith are both fall into the broader you know conversation of like reshuffling or sales or what have you they're very different brands yeah they're extremely different brands and you know and we very different you know potential hypothetical challenges right like Baum and Mercier I would I would presume is having challenges around

differentiation right like what makes and competing in a segment of the market that's in a rough spot right now sure Zenith does not have that problem Zenith is highly differentiated very clearly articulated brand very clear designs but LVMH as a company is going through a lot of palace intrigue and changes both in terms of individuals and leadership roles moving into different different roles etc drama around the you know a succession of Bernard Arnault and

what's going to happen with his family and who's taking there's just palace intrigue galore can't can't make a tomahawk without breaking some grace certainly you certainly cannot I mean this is the truly I mean it's the stuff of an HBO series yeah but Zenith is interesting to me in the sense that Zenith to me has all and I mean look full transparency we know a lot of people at Zenith we love a lot of people in Zenith and Zenith love the watches

too I'm also frankly like there is no collective without Zenith because they were the first people that supported us so obviously I'm emotionally tied into this brand I can't be quite as as objective as I would be elsewhere but I would argue that with Zenith it's about how much someone wants to believe you know I mean it really kind of is the the Ted Lasso believe sign you know the watchmaking is there the creativity is there the heart and soul is there if

that can be more of a priority at another company hell yes oh that's a good way of putting it you know and I mean look that doesn't mean that it's not a priority of LVMH I'm not doing this to take a potshot at LVMH yeah it's just you know it's a big company their focus is all is in different places if selling the company gives them a cash infusion to put more you know love into Hublot more love into Tag Heuer more love into Bulgari etc I mean okay and then if that

split off goes to you know if that brand goes to another party that that sees what really makes Zenith something special then a-okay I see a very big difference between why an LVMH might want to say goodbye to Zenith from Richemont saying goodbye to Balmain Mercier yeah you know like to me to use a really bizarre metaphor it's like Zenith is is like I I love you and we need to get a divorce but like I think you're an incredible person this just wasn't the

right match you know I mean maybe maybe you know if we run with that metaphor to Balmain Mercier it's like we never should have gotten married anyway like what were we doing yeah you know yeah I'm a bit skeptical of this it could be true it might not be true again these are these are rumors there is reporting

against it we should give that some credence at the same time we should give credence that LVMH is giving this a full-throated denial yeah but with the LVMH and Zenith thing it surprises me one because we talked about like the role of Val Fleurier and integration within the Richemont group well Zenith is not just a brand within the portfolio of LVMH it does supply calibers to other Maisons within LVMH now of course they could still continue

to do that if they were part of a separate company or movements could be acquired from somewhere else but just this last week at LVMH watch week there are other LVMH brands that announced and revealed a number of novelties with Zenith elite calibers yeah I mean there's all sorts of stuff like that you know there's there's also shared intellectual property and other formats like quick-release bracelets between Zenith and Hublot materials hundred

percent you know and it's like this is a this is a really sticky wicket because it's all tied up in like you know agreements with third-party vendors who license various different you know products and ideas to LVMH but they're you know but they're but they're made available to this brand so this goes back to this whole idea of like if you divorce yourself if you excise a brand from the company what is actually the brand like what are you buying right yeah

and also it points out to why this is such a difficult and painstaking thing there's so many things to unwind it's not just the payroll and like this person moves to another office it's all this stuff supplier contract we have a Zenith supplier contract even valid for I'm making this up for ceramic bracelets if they're no longer part of the group we have a watch that's currently in service collaboration that we did with Zenith and you know that

goes to the LVMH service center oh great yeah it's like so many things you have to consider when you consider what it means to quote sell a brand it's not like you know it's not like something that's like exists in its own hermetically sealed you know pocket you're like there you go yeah one Zenith you know so and when you think about it too it's it's kind of like you know cost of ownership is a thing right I mean I was my like my parents grew up they

always were obsessed with Jaguars and the question was like well see it's not it's not can you like afford a Jaguar it's can you afford to like repair the Jaguar I'm learning that lesson myself painfully now with yeah yeah I got recently picked up an e46 a BMW 3-series it's a 330ci so nothing fancy like an m3 but I've I've spent more money fixing the car in the two months I've owned it than I did to buy the car so right so there's your there's your cost of

ownership it's not can I afford the car it's can I afford to make exactly and I would argue that's the thing about Zenith or or Baume and Mercier or like whatever brand right in the end it's it's not just can you buy the brand it's what about the service center what about the parts what about all the contracts what about like all of this stuff is what goes into like the the sack of a brand and you have to ask yourself like not only do I believe that I do I have

the marketing and brand acumen to drive the future of this brand but like can I can I take it on can I fix the watches can I take on all can I even take on the integration the the other thing that's going on with LVMH is like forget whether or not they keep Zenith or or spin it off like there already is a ton of movement happening within the watchmaking division of of LVMH so if you look at their acquisition for instance of Le Fabrique Duton if you

look at how they've rebooted the Gerald Genta and the Daniel Roth brands if you look how and how much more seriously Louis Vuitton as a brand is taking watchmaking there is a lot but the rise continued rise of Bulgari there's already a lot that's happening under the hood with the watchmaking brands and the watchmaking aspect of LVMH like they've come quite a way I was listening to the enthusiasts podcast from Stephen Pulverin and Justin Haas are good

friends and this is a point that they made which is if you look back ten years five years LVMH as a watchmaking force and just the number of watches that they're making the brands they have has expanded aggressively really ten years ago it was Tag Heuer Hublot and Zenith and like Bulgari was doing some watch making off on the side but Bulgari has now been really pulled into the fray of LVMH watchmaking and you of course have sure have pulled into the fray of

watchmaking yeah exactly exactly and it's pretty remarkable what's happened and so on the one hand you're seeing LVMH making a lot of substantial investments in watchmaking so you're kind of like if and there's another thing I want to talk about with them but they're making some substantial investments in watchmaking they're adding and beefing up their watchmaking bona fides so why would they spin this thing off the bona fide I don't know

they and then the other thing that's going on is there have been speaking of rumors this isn't really a rumor but a number of years ago Bernard Arnault who owns the majority shareholder in LVMH or at least has control of LVMH I believe he's the CEO and head honcho he had acquired episode by the way great acquired episode he has made investments in Richemont so he owns a minority stake of Richemont now he has said publicly that he's not interested in taking over

Richemont and that you know he Johan Rupert is a friend of his and he trusts him and he wants him to run Richemont and all this kind of stuff they both said this sort of thing but that you know he believes in them and wants to make an investment why on earth would he be interested in in Richemont well Cartier is the crown jewel Van Cleef & Arpels is a huge business LVMH does very well in jewelry we talked about this in past episodes the jewelry making divisions of

Richemont are really the ones that are driving the business the growth of the business the revenue of the business the profitability of the business and if you're Bernard Arnault how you know it's like what's that old fable it's like what you know why did the scorpion sting someone because he's a scorpion it's kind of that it's like well look at all the acquisitions and all the moves Bernard Arnault has made over the decades how could he not want Cartier

specifically and then if you think about you know Richemont and and what they've done spinning off Balmain Mercier and really focusing on their more premium watchmaking brands it's like are they setting themselves up for for an acquisition here so there's this bigger picture of whether you want to buy that conspiracy or not LVMH has six has six significantly beefed up watchmaking sure so the fact that they'd be looking to shop Zenith which is integrated into

their other operations which has its own lane and its own point of view and its role that it fills is surprising yeah I don't know I think all of that may be true but corporations still do corporation stuff and we don't have access to the books part of the reporting here is that the reason why again this is the reporting for instance from the business of fashion that Zenith has been lost making for years and so it's adding to the pressure from the

executives to sort of do something hey it's Gabe open work is proudly ad free and requires no paid subscription if you'd like to support the show please take a moment to subscribe rate and review on your podcast platform of choice please also check out and subscribe to collective horology on YouTube where you'll find hundreds of videos we've made on independent watchmaking you can find our channel at collective horology comm slash YouTube

and of course you can always support the podcast by picking up a watch from over a dozen independent brands along with our latest merch at collective horology comm thanks for listening and for your support now back to the show yeah who knows we'll see but regardless two interesting hypothetical well one confirmed one hypothetical movers in in the watch and then you have the meta chess game of Bernard Arnault but taking taking a stake in the in the reach my

group and wherever there's smoke there's fire with that that kind of stuff I always found that I don't think he does he does anything just could see believes it another executive and wants to support their work sure but but I mean his interest in Hermes is also very well known is okay I believe he owns a minority stake there as well he's made a small yeah although there's some really interesting reporting that's been out there for years to about that like

that is very there's a very antagonistic relationship Hermes is not interested in selling and Hermes is does not want anybody aggressively and what's the ownership structure there because I think it's essentially private for all intents and purposes but some number I'm not entirely sure how it's structured we don't really know but it is don't listen to us about but it but it is but it is still largely under family control all right well forget rumors let's get back

to reality and talk about watches and wonders which is there's a grand reshuffling happening within watches a brand reshuffling or a grand reshuffle grand brand grand reshuffle gosh maybe we shouldn't record so late in the afternoon but not let's talk a little bit about the seating chart at watches and wonders because there's a few interesting things going on there we talked about AP joining and we talked about why we think AP is is joining but

one thing I speak in the seating chart I think is really interesting is like they're kind of being put in this backwater corner look they're sort of being sent to the kids table you know it's interesting about that show many things but what's fascinating to me it's like the actual pal expo is way way way bigger than watches and wonders huge yet they they seem to want to like jam everything into like the existing footprint like they won't extend like

you could just build another hall you know yeah well there was even a more simple solution I'm trying to pull up a map but for if memory serves me right Bell and Ross is out of watches and wonders this year and Bell and Ross's booth which was a significant booth in in size and scale was right across from Rolex Tudor Chopard and Patek Philippe yes so why would an AP just take over that booth and and maybe it's not as big as AP would have liked but they could

have to your point built further conceivably further into well the show sure but part of that is because Chanel took over that space so but okay so they're they were in the Chanel zone there's no brand there I think Chanel is a stake in them yeah I think they're the primary yeah yeah so Chanel just took that entire space got okay so so it wasn't necessary okay so that we can squash that conspiracy theory but specifically so a couple years ago when

Bremont joined the show along with a number of smaller brands they opened this sort of like mezzanine space so it's kind of upstairs from the rest of

showcase our favorite brand Bremont yes Bremont and this was primarily done for Bremont so this sort of second level of watches and wonders you've got Bremont you have a smaller hall of small and independent brands and then primarily what this this area where AP is specifically had had been for years was like this executive dining room so it was basically this like faux restaurant where brand executives could make a reservation and like take VIPs retailers

press to like have a sit-down like served fancy lunch at a table and you can imagine that's not necessarily the most high priority thing so it was sort of put upstairs and off in the corner well now AP is literally where that restaurant used to be and then that restaurant has been pushed even further into the bowels of I mean I can't I can't help but find it amusing that like the spot that you couldn't get a table at is of course the place that it's oh

but we have the perfect place for you AP it's poetic so it's like you know they're they're joining but you know knowing what we know about AP and how important you know their images and how they present themselves and show up which I get like you're a you're a global luxury brand you're not just a watch brand but you're a brand it's interesting to me they've been sort of seated at the at the kids table so we'll see how it goes now sometimes these

brands don't want to be anywhere near each other they may have said like I don't want to be in in you know earshot of Patek Philippe or anyone else but I find that kind of hard to believe I don't know I mean yeah look I I am the first to take a to take an easy shot at AP I honestly think this is more of just like this is where the space was not any sort of refuse the space to then like it yeah well this well I don't think they can't afford to refuse the space because

I think they're there because they need retailers as we as I've said and we'll come back to that but and and you've said opposite you think they're there for the media so we'll find out the other thing they did with this space so they rerouted the shuttles so when they open the second floor space you used to enter watches and wonders on that sort of main floor level and you'd feed right into this area that was sort of in the middle of the show you could go one way

for Patek Rolex Tudor and the Chanel brands and if another you go the other way basically for the Richemont brands and so you entered basically in the middle of show go one way or the other essentially the other year when they opened that like backwater upstairs space they rerouted the shuttle buses that would take you from your hotel the event to drop you off at this weird back entrance to force you to walk through that well yeah because that that's where

they put all the septons who have bells so they can go shame shame shame as you walk right by Bremont I mean it's really it's all part of that tradition so we'll see they'll probably force us again to walk by Bremont and AP this year but look I think when they did when they made that change they probably or that AP will allocate the bells to okay fair enough we'll see if they do that I think when they first open that space it made sense because people conceivably had no

idea that that space was there and who was up there so you sort of it it's like Ikea you know you walk all the way through the plants before you leave yeah no you can't you can't just buy the bookcase like in all seriousness I put it putting aside my my silliness I don't think it matters where AP is you know AP is AP if somebody want if they could they could be dangling from a crane above that you had to climb a rope ladder to get into and and like both

clients and and ADs would do that I'm sure what I am most interested here is not where they're placed but what their end goal is and only time will tell when we get to that one I'm just looking at the at the map here because we got sent the map throughout through a back channel but suffice it to say if you're any other brand that is in that upstairs area you are stoked that AP is up there yeah because it creates a center of gravity up there in fairness like it's a

good location anyway because everybody's got to walk by it yeah but but separate from that you know another thing that I found particularly interesting to you

was Mont Blanc has left the show and well yeah this we're covering we covered Moser moving up within the show they're moving into Mont Blanc's old space and and who are they surrounded by Parmigiani long and zone a Vacheron Constantin Cartier IWC and Ulysses Nardin would you have the map I do you go you got the map at the map you got it's in slack man yeah we bring up and I don't think the map has been published yet but we got it through a

back channel you know who you are thank you the question for me about Moser here is an interesting one because Moser has been understandably very proud of their move from the sort of independent section yeah I apologize to any French speakers get you get me to do a lingo anyway they move from there in on to the the quote-unquote main floor and I think that actually says a lot about not only just their growth as a brand and all of that but also how they view

themselves you know they view and and this is not unique to watches and wonders because we see this in who they've partnered with from a retail standpoint and the way that they built out right you go to New York City now you want to see a Moser five six years ago you went to you went to go see Leon at Chile now you go to the time machine you go to the book or a time machine in Vegas you go to watch as a Switzerland in the wind hotel Moser has

an entire wall next to Vacheron and by the way who are they across from now at watches and wonders Vacheron how I know they're pretty stoked about yeah so I think what this is doing is it's giving you some insight and it's not like this is super hidden or anything but it's giving pretty clear and obvious insight into the Malone strategy around this brand which is yes maybe we did start as an independent but we believe that we have the product the strategy and the

support to become a mainstream competitor to these multi hundred-year established brands I'm really fascinated by this because this is the first of our generation of independents that that has made the decision to do that and you know I mean I suppose you maybe you could say that about Parmigiani maybe but like it's it's different because Parmigiani it was sort of there versus they didn't grow up in though in the kind of contemporary independent

watchmaking space the way Moser did it came up but there are parallels but the MB&F's and chap ex and all the there are parallels between Parmigiani and the various companies they own and I think some of the acquisitions that yeah good boy seen you know in terms of the actual back end that that is is owned by or partially owned by Agenor has a major investment yeah I forget the name of the company that makes all the hairsprings and it'll come back to me but yeah

they're also you know very heavily owned by them no Moser out like that right now they make their hair there you go so many hairsprings for others you for many others so so my point is this is a really interesting and important thing

to watch because this is a brand that has always been if I'm being super blunt like really ballsy yes and extremely creative unorthodox yeah yeah and maverick brand truly yeah and they've made this choice so I'm very interested curious and and they posit well they position themselves among the other mavericks you know they were in the carry and they were next to Armand Strom and Moser and chap bag or obviously their next moves are chap back

and others you know they were in this space that was this fresh space of creativity that had life and was unorthodox and we're risk-taking was on not just rewarded but on full display you know they were in the mix you know and they fit in and in that in that space because they were in a hall of mavericks now they're in a hall of very stayed traditional brands does that mean that they're gonna wear you know I'm gonna show up wearing a suit or are they

gonna be the crazy guy at the party this is a really interesting question I'll be very interested to follow Moser and see how they have all of us a brand or don't in this next stage of growth that they're going for but what is interesting to me about this is at every show we've ever been to if you go into whether it's Geneva watch days or watches and wonders or wherever else you might see them you is going to space that is co-branded between Moser and

outlawns which is their sister brand and you know you don't know what lawns they make really cool unusual watches I mean the talk about a brand is very indie Moser is leaving outlawns behind so the booth at watches and wonders will be Moser only outlawns will still be in the caray so they're taking over fully the sort of the Moser the Moser outlawns co-branded booth will be just outlawns there in the caray so this is also interesting for me this is the first

time Moser separating these two brands and how they show up and it makes me think they've recognized here like okay outlawns this is a indie brand through and through avant-garde designs and watchmaking this brand belongs in the caray that's where it is it's at home there Moser no longer fits and I see okay if I just offer one potential counterpoint I'm gonna read you from their press release oh don't talk about this today a new page is being written

in the history books after nine years in the caray de horloger age Moser and she will move to the main halls of watches and wonders in 2026 this is a natural evolution demonstrating the financial strength continued growth and renown of the brand from a little gem in the caray de horloger to a brand that is a key player on the international stage age Moser and she's unique take on horology okay if I can just offer the counterpoint there is a little bit of

like the dog kicking up its back legs here everybody around them as they head up there oh yeah yeah they slammed the door on the way out so like this idea of like oh it's it's a cute little gem in the caray oh you sweet little guys over there it's extremely patronizing towards other I will say but there but outlawns they're leaving outlawns behind but that's my point so I just and I mean look I I struggle a little bit here because I like Edward and I like Moser a

lot and I believe in them but I don't like the idea of like you know tossing your hair back and wagging your finger at the entire world of the independence which not only do we believe strongly in being the future of watchmaking and also where ingenuity and creativity lives but it's also what gave birth to Moser sure and I think the thing that I struggle with here is like if they're going to do that to their competitive set what are they gonna do to all the

people who believed in them as independent collectors because I'll tell you one thing if they're saying if they start acting like some of the major brands to the people who brought them to the dance that ain't gonna go well their whole tagline is very rare and part of the appeal of Moser is that it is undiscovered it is for the cognizant II it is inside baseball there is a wink to what they do and they're very much walking away from it what was the what

was the first reason there they cited for moving away from the carry they get they gave like three reasons in this opening sentence I think the first one was financial strength correct how dull so look we we talk all the time about how watches and wonders in the the main halls of the show it's the invasion of the suits yeah you know it's the white guy in the Navy suit with the slick back hair and the leather briefcase well it's a natural 10,000 demonstrating the

financial strength continued growth and renown of the brand you know what's missing from that creativity exciting products imagine if you rewrote that sentence and you're like nothing about natural evolution based on the creativity and risk-taking of the brand that's been rewarded exactly instead what they're saying is like well we're rich now yeah we got the money so we're gonna we're gonna use the executive washroom yeah so

look I they've joined the they've joined the invasion of the suit well here's that now I just found I just made the the cynical counterpoint now I'll argue with myself the one you can't play the what was it the cynic and the pragmatist the thing I will say about about Moser and this is true since the moment we met them or they came to our moment or our I came to our awareness is write them off at your own peril yeah oh these people are extremely shrewd incredibly and they

they are not afraid to pick and poke so the question I have is are we gonna see Moser who decided that they now want to like what they really wanted was a seat at the big kids table and all of that was just pretense and jokes to get them there hmm or are they gonna show up and continue to be the maverick uh-huh I hope they do I do too because every like they could show up and they could thumb their nose at everyone around them continue to be who they are and still be

financially successful and grow and maintain their vibe yeah and it's not a bad thing if you can walk into any watches of Switzerland in the world or Buker or whatever and you can always find a Moser and it's always fresh different and distinct from everything else in that store so not a bad thing sure could there be a cynical reason totally could there be a brilliant reason absolutely so let's find out all right so a few as Moser moves in a few

brands move move out specifically Mont Blanc moves out of that space and Mont Blanc leaves watches and wonders all together I find the departure of Mont Blanc from watches and wonders especially interesting given the fact that Balmain Mercier is still in there now of course there's a as the cynic and the pragmatist I might say well you know Richemont was shopping Balmain Mercier they want to continue to present the brand and as desirable a way as possible

and favorable as ways as possible to drive up the perceived value of the brand for anyone who buys it they're not showing weakness they're project projecting strength they're still at watches and wonders are still invested this helps sort of build up the value of the brand in the eye of the buyer potentially you know they just pulled them out that makes it harder to sell and also you know they've said we will continue to support the brand ongoing

for about 12 months to transition this is probably part of that so but it is interesting to me when it's like they've made a decision to sell and jettison one brand and they're keeping them at watches and wonders yet Mont Blanc is still within Richemont and is out from watches and wonders now Mont Blanc is not a like a pure watchmaking brand the way Balmain Mercier is you know Balmain Mercier isn't at watches and wonders then what show are they at whereas Mont

Blanc you know this is a part of their business but not the only part of their business but it's it's significant to me that they're not there but what if anything does it say to you I don't know I mean I find that way less interesting than everything else we've discussed it's in a sense that Mont Blanc is a multi-billion dollar company that is heavily diversified and just relative to like basically every other brand that's in that that that that space I

mean maybe they share some similarities by scale and scope with like Tag Heuer but but this you're right like this is a component of their business it's not their primary business you know pens and leather goods are what that business is based on and those are much higher margin much easier to under to metabolize and much more widely distributed than their watches sure but you have other brands there from Richemont for whom watches aren't their

core business you've got Van Cleef & Arpels still has a yeah but Van Cleef & Arpels is an act is actual I mean Minerva notwithstanding is actual watchmaking and you know you know and I'm not trying to take a potshot there too but like I mean look I mean you know the ice divers are they're fine they're Solita driven you know at a driven whatever you know generic on-point divers they serve a purpose you buy them in an airport they're well-made beers

and you have a nice day but like it's not you know I just don't to me like if I were if I were Richemont I would focus on the places that I need to focus on and I would just say you know what like we can save ourselves a million dollars probably more oh more you know cost not way more than a million dollars and Montblanc will still be an incredibly successful well-renowned highly regarded you know incredible luxury brand yeah Montblanc doesn't need

watches and wonders the way now I'm a mercy it does and I don't know that the incremental business that's picked up I mean I again this is complete conjectures but I would imagine that the incremental business that's picked up by Montblanc at watches and wonders is much smaller than the incremental business that we see from other Richemont brands and watches and wonders ain't cheap so far from it so I would say you know I'm less you're not reading between the

lines I think much I think I look at that one I'm gonna put you this way Richmond is not going to sell Montblanc no way I mean that is you watches decide that that that brand is a absolute luxury and globally recognized power house there is zero reason to say goodbye to that brand yeah what I mean obviously pens is a huge category fine leather goods I would assume everything electronics oh yeah you're right they make those like they make headphones

they make they make smart watches they make you know every conceivable form of let they are more of a competitor to you dick with us yeah but they're more of a competitor to like you know like like the entry-level Louis Vuitton than they are oh yeah you know in many ways or not are to to watch brands that are there so to me I'm like yeah okay sure they could be there they couldn't be there but like that's less interesting to me than like Balmain Mercier for which that is what

they are known and they are gone all right well there are a few other folks actually they're not gone from the show yeah but you know they're moving they're moving from the portfolio yeah I mean there are a few other brands that aren't coming back Bell and Ross is the other sort of big one that's really interesting it's kind of go Armin Strom a brand that we carry wasn't there for two years now they're coming back speak Marin is leaving the show they were there for four

or five years and now they're there and they come out yeah they're based in Geneva and I can see for them talking about you know how much it costs to be there they're like our office is literally in Geneva why are why are we doing this whereas a lot of the independent shows right I mean like you know we have a lot of brands that we carry and that we work with that are next-door at the time to watches and even some other brands that are now

occupying the Hilton which is also adjacent to the to the public with the Hilton so I think part of this is also if I'm being honest with you just like other shows nibbling around the edges of watches and wonders and realizing that you don't have to pay whatever they charge per square foot to be in there if your clientele or time to watch is still right my sir this year it still will be okay last year they were saying this is the last year the only year it

can be here because this building that time to watches is in which is right next to the Plex post being turned into a museum but sounds like they got a reprieve from that and they live to fight another that space is cool though brutally hot when you got to the upper floor sure the body heat just but but I mean just speaking from a practical standpoint like just as somebody like thank God yeah incredible yeah and that's good for watches and wonders to

it keeps you keeps you in in the area so the movers and shakers whether it's at watches and wonders or brands coming off the coming off the company masthead there you have it a lot happening I suspect this will not be the last time we talk about the brand reshuffling happening this year there whether it's maybe maybe not but I suspect there will be other brands that move around this year it's it's in the water there have certainly been a ton of challenges the

industry has faced these restructurings take a long time and a lot of executive reshufflings have happened which usually precedes this so this will be a space we continue to watch let's call it all right well thank you so much for

listening open work is of course a podcast from collective neurology you can find us online at collective horology calm and please send us your thoughts your feedback your suggestions send us your questions we love questions and to do that you can email podcast at collective horology calm

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