Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. That's right, we are back. I am back from doing conferences and having trips and all that for good stuff. Although I'm gonna have some trips coming up, but we'll talk more about that later. And I'm gonna bring you along virtually. But my name, if you were unaware, and this is maybe the first time you've heard the show, is Alejandro Rojas. And I am here with my buddy Martin, and he's the one who came up with his nickname today Martin Downer.
Willis well, for those first time listeners, I'm not always a downer. Yeah that's true. Yeah, you're not always a downer. But then the reason why I'm calling him that is because before we started the show, you know, we're talking about the hurricanes, because I had seen some hurricane damage on my trip and all of that, and he's talking about the weather's not going to get better, how we're all screwed, and that's miss Sunshine.
Yeah, that reminds me. You'll love this story. So Linda Howe was at the conference and she's got some interesting perspectives and a friend of ours, one of our volunteers, I just this last weekend. She's great Mary Anne rob lover to death. She's actually a police officer here in Gilbert but she spent some time with Linda Howe and she was like, she would say, she was crying. She was going to get out of the UFO field.
She was so freaked out because Linda how told her that, you know, remote viewers are seeing floods and devastation and we're all screwed by twenty twenty, we're gonna be all dead. And she was freaked out. So I was like, wow, you know, we were all like, chill out. Chill doesn't mean that's really gonna happen, and she's over it. But I guess she got really freaked out by listening to Linda how Well, you know there's been doomsdays around since Day number one, you know, doomsdayers.
Yeah so, but you know, I don't know about the remote viewing. How can you see into the future of the remote remote viewing? Yeah, you know, and one of the key tenants that you know, I read a lot of the remote viewing books and one of the main guys, mcmonagall is his name, and he wrote over and over again and some of the others that you have to have verifiable data. Like, it's no good if you don't have verifiable data. So really most of their remote viewing was remote
viewing stuff they can verify so they can determine how accurate they were. And the best remote viewers were twenty percent accurate. And so what that means is when they're remote viewing an unknown you know, if they're a good remote viewer, then you would know that maybe twenty percent of the information is something you can do something with. So let's say they give you ten leads, you know, only two of those of work. But like John Alexander pointed out
when I interviewed him about this once, was that's better than nothing. If you're looking at a cold case and you've got nothing, even you know, a couple some leads to actually follow up even if can be helpful. So that's what's interesting about it. Still, if you're not honing your practice, as they put it, you know, and getting feedback, and that was
the most important thing. It's getting feedback as to your accuracy accuracy, then you know your your skill is going to deplete it's and you're not going to know how accurate you are. So I mean, yeah, twenty percent best when people are remote viewing all of this really wild and crazy stuff. I think people have to keep that in mind. It you know, the best remote viewers for twenty percent accurate, So that means only twenty percent of the
Earth's population. Wal Yeah, good point. Wow. Yeah, that's the way to look at the glass half full right there, right, mister sunshine or yeah, your new nickname is mister Sunshine today, although you've been stuck in the snow out there in the cold. Yeah, yeah, we had We have about three feet still here in Maine. It was last week we got clobbered. We had to I think three nor'easters in three weeks. Oh my gosh, I've heard it about that wildness that people have been experiencing.
Yeah, you've keep threatening to move to Arizona. I think that perhaps you should. It was in the forties last night, which is pretty chilly for out here, and it is a little bit chilly now. I think it's around seventy degrees sunny, so it's pretty nice. It really is. So moving on my guest for today, and this guest is going to be my guest several times in the next few months, and I hope you'll be happy about that. I am. And that guest is Stanton Friedman. So Stan
Friedman I have on tonight. If you're not aware of who he is, he was a nuclear nuclear sometimes I say nuclear that damn George Bush taught me that, and I can't get over it. The library, Yeah, that's a couple of terms that I screw up. Like I always say, berry, That one I'm never going to be able to get rid of. It's always going to be a library to me. Plus that sounds nice. It reminds me of like a blueberry or something delicious like that. But gues Stanton,
we're going to have. He used to be a nuclear physicist and kind of turned ufologists. So and he's been doing this for decades. When I started in the UFO field, or at least looking into it, he was the guy. He was the guy you saw on TV. He was the go to guy to be interviewed. He was mister UFO. This is before you know Richard Dolan or Nick Pope or any of these people. It was
he was the face of eufology. So we'll talk about that somewhat, especially when there was a lull, you know, especially in the eighties, nineties, it wasn't taken as seriously. It was always you know, when it was presented. It was also debunked at the end. It wasn't really taken for what it was. So things have changed a lot. That's what I
wanted to talk to San Friedman about. But actually we I also wanted to talk about how he got started and what it was like, you know, being that one guy out there, or you know, when at least some of the very well known historic figures in this field, like doctor j Allen Heineke who was an astronomy professor and worked on Project Blue Book, or uh Donald Kehoe who started the group NCAP. He was a retired Marine officer and worked with a lot of military people looking into UFOs, some of the people
he knew who have since passed away. So we talk a lot about that and it's really interesting. But in upcoming interviews, I want to talk to him more about how things have changed, the state of things today and his thoughts on that and why is it so important to talk to him right now? Now? You're the news guy, I think you know, are you talking to me? Yeah? Well this is one of those awkward no, why it's so important that I talked to him right now. We get these
because you know he's not going to stay in this forever. Well, oh well, you might not know he's he's saying he's he's retiring. I do. That's what I meant. Yeah, I did. That's what he said when I saw him out in Phoenix. He said he was going to be retiring. So yeah, and I guess he's been telling people this on interviews as well. So and so, you know, he told us that at the at the Congress, but then I've heard from other people too that now
he's out there saying that. So and he's very serious about it. So we talked about him retiring here. He's going to be eighty four or eighty five, he yeah, says in the interview. And I've already forgotten which one it is, but uh, yeah, he feels it's time that he retire. And you know, you can there's a big difference from when I first met him to these days, you know, as far as physically his ability to get around. He says his mind has kind of gotten a little
less sharp, but you wouldn't know it. You wouldn't know it. I would never know it. He's still he's still really to me, he still really has it. Does he talk about when how he very first got into what made him get into the UFO subject. I love that he does about the book. Yeah. No, he didn't tell me about a book. It was something else. Oh okay, do you want me to say what he told me once on an interview? Yeah, that'd be great. Okay.
So he was ordering some books from some type of school or library or something like that, and so he got he would get free shipping if he ordered an extra book, and so he just kind of went to a book and it said UFO on it, and he just like, that's I'll just order that. So he filled it in and sent it away for it, and he got the UFO book and he was very very fascinated by it. And that's really how he said to me how he actually got started and looking
at the UFO topic. Do you remember what book it was? No, but he said he was saying it was because he was too cheap. He says, I'm cheap and that's why I did it And look where it led
me. That's really funny. Yeah, that's interesting. So, yeah, he's led an interesting life and I think, hands down, you know Lise Spiegel's on the show a lot, a journalist, and he's written a lot about UFOs and he and I were talking the other day and he brought this up, and I think he's right that, hands down, Stan Freedman has done more lectures on this topic than probably anybody in history, right, and and the second place person would probably be way way behind, maybe has done
half as much, something like six or seven hundred colleges. Yeah, things like that or amaz. We talk about that in this interview too, and why that is and how that happened, and so I think it's really insightful and interesting. Yeah, he talks about his hecklers. He's only had a few. Yep, he often talks about his hecklers. But yes, we do talk about that as well. So fun stuff. Yeah, So a
great interview. I love this interview, and we'll have more with Santon coming up as time goes on, and especially to talk about some of the incredible things that are happening lately that are really interesting. So why don't we get
into that. Let's get into the UFO news with Martin Willis Downer. Willis, all right, Well, I want to talk about a wonderful blog that was written by one of my favorite people in the UFO field, Linda Zimmerman, and the to this is Saint Patrick's Day UFOs, and some of you may actually still be hungover from Saint Patrick's Day. So it starts in two thousand and six. She goes back and looks through time on Saint Patrick's Day, and then she actually says, why, you know, they're not too
many reports in the month of March in general. You know, there are like in warmer places, but around the country. So in two thousand and six, the police in Nehuett I don't know exactly how you pronounced that, New York assumed that there was a high volume McCalls reporting UFOs was just a result of too much party in partying on this festive day. But there were some sober people that were calling in and witnesses to uh basically a mass sighting.
And this was Saint Patrick's Day in the Hudson Valley in New York. Actually that was thirty five years earlier. There was one on Saint Patrick's Day that she refers to in the Hudson Valley. But so she speculates, well, you know, perhaps it's test flights of exotic aircraft on March seventeenth, realizing that eyewitness reports would be deemed unreliable. She's saying that kind of as a joke on Saint Patrick's Day, or ets actually know our drinking habits.
But anyway, so she goes back into the Newfork database and it becomes evident that historically March isn't active. But there are some cases on Saint Patrick's Day, going back to nineteen sixty nine and Odessa, Washington, there was a brilliant metallic, glowing dis shaped craft with red and blue lights and a circle on the bottom and was seen by over a dozen witnesses and so back I'll
see when was this exactly. There was one right on eighty four New York and New York and Western Connecticut. They saw a massive football size like a silent craft hovering and moving extremely slowly. And I don't really see the date on that particular one. It doesn't really show the date on that one. But this is just going back looking at all of these different sightings that actually happened on Saint Patrick's Day. And there was another one in nineteen eighty eight,
and it was very similar to another one in nineteen sixty nine. The sketches on in the blog itself, and you'll see this weird sketch of this polygon shaped item with green lights all the way around it. So anyway fitting, isn't it had green lights on Saint Patrick's Day? Yeah, So anyway, there's a lot of them. Nineteen eighty three, again, nineteen eighty eight, sixty nine, all on Saint Patrick's Day. One was a boomerang shaped, one was egg shaped, and this polygon shape one. There's a
picture drawn sketch by the artists. Yeah. Great article that she wrote for Openminds dot tv, and it's got tons of likes and stuff. But Linda Zimmerman's wonderful. We're so lucky to have her to contribute. And it was kind of interesting because she sent me a few pictures to include in the article, and she was like, you know, a couple of these, I don't know where they come from, so I'm not sure if you can use
them. And I'm very careful about making sure I know where the pictures are come from so I can credit the source and make sure that it's okay if I have any indication that this person, you know, these people don't want their pictures to be shared elsewhere, even with credit, then I won't do it. But it turned out these were Michael Schratz and yeah so and Michael Shratt. He did these probably while he was working with Open Minds. And
Michael Shratt is excellent, I mean at these graphics. He does the coolest graphics for historical sightings, and he is always very cool about sharing his pictures. So you know, now, doesn't he doesn't. He typically go along the lines that these are military. Yeah, I mean he feels that a
lot of these seem to be military. I think even this one, he felt there's people witnesses kind of described an inner kind of structure, beams and stuff, and so he does feel that it's possible and makes the argument that it's possible that some of these could be you know, black projects and stuff. So yeah, it's funny, it's interesting. He's funny feel about that. I mean, do you feel like we could actually have a crowd often to have had it for for a decade or two, that could hover slowly?
I thought any sound highly highly unlikely. But of course the idea that an extraterrestrial civilization created something and is flying around is also you know, I think arguably unlikely. So even though that that's a long shot, either one is a bit of a long shot, So who knows. I think that you just can't completely rule it out, just like you can't rule out that it could be possibly a craft from the future or something. You know. The last guest I had on is one hundred percent, well, his thoughts
are one hundred percent that they're interdimensional. Interesting, you know, I mean, I think if anyone has their thoughts that it's just one anything, it's most likely they're going to be wrong. Yeah, you know, yeah, I agree, because there's so many possibilities and it's it's impossible to rule out many of these, and you know, the one from the future is kind
of cool. I was watching this interview just yesterday with Neil de grasse Tyson essentially doing showing parts of an interview he did with Stephen Hawking, who, of course people probably know passed away just in the last few days and an
incredible thinker of course, and he had Mitchell Okaku on. He had different guests on where they would show one of the questions and answers from Hawking, and then he had this panel that he would talk to and they were talking about the possibility of people coming from the future, and he asked Hawking, is it possible people are coming from the future. He says, yeah, it's possible, but if it happened, if it's if it is possible,
we probably would have met someone from the future already. And I love that answer because I was to people, do you believe it's possible that people that one day will travel in time? And if they say yes, then I say, well, that answer also then probably indicates that that would mean it. It's you would believe it's possible there's someone from the future here right now.
So Hockey is going there where It's like, if you believe in time travel, then you know that you're you're believing that you know there probably are time travelers here now, and so I think it's an interesting thought because then they started to discuss how it could be possible, and Mitchie Okaku then brought in the type two type three civilizations, this idea of extraterrestrial civilizations that have advanced technology, and he talked about how it would need to be a more
advanced species that could have this something called negative energy, which that's when he lost me. I couldn't understand it, and even Neil deGrasse Tyson said he had a hard time understanding what the heck negative is energy was. But I guess it's something that you need to have in order to do time travel, which would be possible. But then Mitchie Okoku talked about how if you do go back in time, essentially you're creating a new timeline and that's a different
dimension, and it gets really weird. Well, I also, you know, like if we had the technology, say now, to time travel, and we were going to go back in time, you know, I think the caution would be, you know, don't change anything. So by changing something, does that mean actually you create another timeline anyone, It's impossible to change the past. So if you do something different in the past, you haven't changed your previous past. You have created a new dimension, a new
timeline, or at least you're now on a different timeline. So weird stuff that is weird. We've only got a couple of minutes left, and of course I'm sure people want to know about the big news, some of the big news that happened, which is the A third video dropped from the Two Stars uh from the d O d and there has been a lot of question
around this. Of course, my last podcast was the interview with Louise Elisondo from the twenty eighteen International IFO Congress, and the question is is and and so it's another interesting video where the pilots are obviously baffled by what they're looking at and and what's interesting though is that, you know, again there's not
very much information that comes along with the video. So it's the video alone with just talking about, you know, kind of the equipment, also the you know, the the raytheon kind of equipment that that taped this thing, but also talking about uh, you know they name this thing to go Fast, and a little bit of background, but not really it says dates and
times were not included at all. However, this video was released in conjunction with a Washington Post article written by Chris Mellen, who you're one of the few people who's had him on your shows at right, and and he, as part of this to the Stars, worked for the CIA and then THEDIA and all all of these different groups, consultant for the Congress and intelligence and in his article he's essentially just saying, hey, these incidents are happening.
The DoD is not taking this seriously, and they should. But he does give a little bit more information about this video. So he had some information about it, and I'm trying to find what he said. Do you remember, No, I do know about this particular footage, though, I was contacted by a pilot that said he's actually seen this footage before and didn't think it was ever classified. Oh really, yes, I'm just looking for that
myself right now. Undisclosed navy encounter that occurred off the East coast in twenty fifteen. This is when it was supposed to happen in twenty fifteen. Yeah, the new video happened off the East coast in twenty fifteen, which is more information than what was shared by the To the Stars Academy. So it's another video. It's created another news cycle where you know, Alexander has been interviewed again by Fox News, CNN, ABC News have done some stuff.
I know Chris Mellan was interviewed I think by it was it ABC or MSN. He did an interview anyway on this as well. So yeah, there's been it created some more news. But of course some people are asking when are we going to find out more information. Why don't we have more information? And we've heard a little bit about Lou Louise on that who goes by Lou. But luckily I'm going to have a chance to hang out with him and another the week week and a half, and so we'll get answers.
I mean, soon we'll be able to be able to hear from him directly, and hopefully it won't be too long till I have him on this podcast and that we're able to do some more on that. Does he live on the West Coast? He currently is on the East Coast, moving to the West coast. Oh, I see, but we're out of time. We're out of time. Yep. That's it for the news. Thank you so much for joining us. Martin. That's a down Yeah, okay, we'll have Stanton coming up next. For those of you listening to the podcast,
you'll hear a short musical interlude. For the rest of you, you'll hear if you're listening on kg are A some commercials. But stay tuned. We'll be right back with Stanton Friedman. I am very happy to have back to the show a good friend and certainly a mentor and someone i've looked up to for a very long time. Stanton Friedman, Hello, good afternoon from beautiful frederickon Brunswick, which has many feet of snow on the ground. No, no, yeah, I'm sure you missed that, but yeah, not at
all. And you are You're northeast. You're more northeast than the whole United States. I think you're in a time zone that's similar to Puerto Rico, way out there on the East. I'm in the Atlantic time zone. Yes, I'm east of Maine. Chili chili out there. Luckily I'm not. Yeah, it was ten degrees this morning, so you must enjoy and we certainly enjoy for the last few years, even if you don't talk. You
coming to the UFO Congress where it's nice and warm and Phoenix. Yeah, so it's been really cool to have you there too, I mean the media warm, Yeah, really warm. Good one. So, and that reminds me because one of the things that we discovered when you were started coming every year to the conference was that the media loves you. And this is a
story. I'm not sure I told you this story many years ago, and I'll probably tell that a lot now that we're talking about you know, we're reminiscing on Stanton stories and will be probably for some time, and we'll talk about why. But when move On first sat their symposium in Denver and I
was helping out with it. With that, the media had cold and I talked to this guy with CBS, and you know, it's hard enough, especially back and I think this was well, this was probably early two thousands, but the media wasn't as friendly as they are today to this topic. And the CBS guy said, well, I'd love to talk to someone. It'd be great if I could talk to Stanton. And I said sure, I couldn't arrange you to talk to Stanton and he said really, And I
was like, yeah, he's like Stan Freeman. I could talk to Stan Freeman. And the guy was so excited to talk to you because he had seen you on TV so much, and it was kind of for me, it was an important moment. It kind of was hopeful that hey, we can gain some ground with the media and some people do pay attention. And it was the first time I really experienced a media person being so excited about, you know, talking to someone in this field. Well, I appreciate
the story, you know. I got started on the media aspect of this. Almost by accident, I called. I was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, working for Westinghouse Aster Nuclear Lab on nuclear rockets, one of my many canceled government sponsored programs, and I was wanted to get on the local talk show on katie Ka big station in town. The show was called Contact a Great Name, and I called Frank Edwards had given me their name and the name of their producer, and it was and I told him, you know,
ass nuclear physicist, Westinghouse, big thing in Pittsburgh. It's over. Then he was singirely unimpressed. Don't call us, We'll call you. And less than a month later I get to call at six point thirty could I please do the show at seven o'clock. Somebody had canceled it till last minute and I had to be there in person, so I lived not far from the station, but and I it turns out I said yes, And that was my first appear pearance on the media about UFOs, and that led to my
first lecture. Somebody at heard me on this show, and which I didn't do as great a job as I usually to be, because frankly, I had a lot of experience at dealing with nasty, noisy negativists and people like that. And somebody at work heard me on the show asked if I would speak to her book review club, which was reading Frank's book Flying Saucers. Serious business. That tells you how long ago this was, obviously, and that was that was my first show, that radio show, and she had
heard me. She asked me to speak. I said yes. I was driving to work one of two times in three years with somebody who was a PA, a supervisor at Westinghouse, a woman, and we were talking I I'd love to speak at Carnegie Mellon University, you know, big school and all that sort of thing. And oh, her husband was the director of student activities, as it happens, and I had called there and talked to somebody who wasn't interested. She said, well, Stan, he's heard you
on the radio. Give him a call, and so I did, and we booked a lecture and that was my first talk, and there was a peculiar aspect when we finished. We set a date, but it was in the afternoon, so I'd have to take some time off work. I was still working at Westinghouse. And he asked how much do you want, And I said, oh, how about one hundred dollars? I thought he knocked me down to fifty. Well, Jean, now that'd be fine. So
he booked it. Many told me what he was because I knew his wife, but he was paying the other speakers in the series fifteen hundred and seventy. Well, it was an introduction to the big time. And the talk went so well he called the agent through whom he had booked these expensive people, and they booked me at a very important talk for me, the Engineering Society of Detroit, a very respectable organization, and he booked me at three
hundred bucks and expenses. I'm in a big time here, and that talk made an impression on me because I'm a young guy still a long time ago. They were sold out two weeks in advance for one thousand and eight people for dinner and the talk. Wow, and there wasn't one nasty question. Wow. I was impressed, frankly, because I had to respect these people, you know. And then a few more talks like that. Somehow the word got around. A colleague at Los Alamos since called me up, and
we hadn't talked about UFOs. We were in radiation shooting for nuclear rockets. Stan, I understand you've given lectures about UFOs. Yeah, how about speaking to a local section of the American nuclear society. Oh, I'd be delighted. No, I mean on an expense account, Stan, Oh, well, I'll have to ask management about that. I don't make those decisions. And I did and they said, yes, they paid for me to go from Pittsburgh to Los Alamos, New Mexico, to give a lecture. Flying
saucers are real, believe it or not. And there were over four hundred people at the lecture. And about what time was that you mean when in years? Yeah, Oh, I would say early it was in the early seventies. I'd say, okay, wow, interesting, So it was, and they're probably I mean it was probably at that point I'm assuming, and this is my question pretty untouched ground. I mean, uh, Heinich was out there, I guess during that time time the time John and keyho.
Yes. But otherwise that which is only a handful compared to today, where there's you know, dozens of people out there trying to talk about this. So and not only that, you're very witty, I mean you're great at interviews and for instance, not to disparage him, because I'm a big fan of Heineck. I'm sure you are too, but I've heard his lectures were very dry and boring. They were fairly dry. Yes, Alan could have a sense of humor, but he was he was so wary of the attacks
of the astronomical community. And as a matter of fact, I introduced him. I arranged for a talk in LA and I introduced him, and then he had an official introduction from the chairman of the astronomy Department at UCLA, and he said very bad things, not about Allen, but about the subject. And I was so disappointed because I wouldn't let anybody get away with that because it was obviously didn't know much about the subject. But yeah, it's
been a long haul, seven hundred lectures or so since that time. And look, I am grateful in my old age and having had the opportunity to speak in all fifty states, ten provinces, nineteen other countries be a ufologist see the world. I hope you don't get introduced as a eufoologist, of course, but yeah, has that happened. That's the first time I've heard that term. But it's a good term. No, It hasn't happened to me. I don't know about other people, but yeah, I'm you know,
I'm fortunate in a way. I was in high school debating way back, a long time ago in Lynden, New Jersey. We had a state championship debating team. And the only reason I got off into lecturing is I was a member of the debating society and we didn't want to state championship. And there was a battle between the professor, this teacher who handled that and the principal of the school, and they canceled debating my last year, my
senior year, and so I had to do something. So that's when I got into the uh there was a debate club and so forth, and so what am I going to do? I can't debate? Okay. I went out for two plays, and I am so grateful and I had the opportunity to be on to be an actor, so to speak. First place was a minor part. Second, would you believe? I played a priest with gray hair, and I thought, gee, my dad had been bald since I was twenty four, So I figured, now I know what I'll look
like when I'm if I had gray hair. Well, I never got bald and I'm glad so, but that was my accident, you know. And what's unique though about kind of your career I think also is that for what you started talking, it seemed that, you know, people liked you,
and it's thought you were and entertaining an f way you did. You know, you did a lot of media interviews, and it seems at least when I started getting into this, and like the nineties, when I was, you know, a big kid myself, there you were like one of the only guys. You were the only real scientists out there. You were one of that. You were like the face of uphology. For it seems for many, many many years. Well there's some truth to that. And let's
let's face it. I did mailings to colleges once I found out look, I thought I had the world's greatest job. I got an offer from McDonald douglas when I was looking for a job after I got laid off on the nuclear rocket program and we had a successful test in Los Alamos and Urge. It had successful test, so they canceled the program. Don't explain that to me because I don't see any But anyway, I'm looking around for a job. I got a great job offer from Bob Wood at McDonald douglas. My
job was going to be to figure out how flying saucers worked. Wow. I was very excited and driving across the country, I was very disappointed here in the radio that the program that was going to support me was canceled. How'd you like to walk in for your first day on a job and they say, you realize we just laid off five thousand people demand orbiting laboratory program. Yeah. I realized that they kept me for three months. But that's
when I determined that they let me do whatever I wanted. And I was decided. I got a family to support. So I got on the phone and started calling colleges. And you know, because of the two hour time difference, I'm a cheap skate and you can call between eight and between six and eight in the morning California time for back East, you know. And so I did that and I got a few lectures, and then I did mailings. I was doing mailings to a thousand colleges at once out of work.
But if you're going to do it, you better do it, you know. And I found that you're right. I was the only one on the circuit really that the student activities people had ever heard of. And I did something else, and this applies in a lot of other fields. But after we had a very successful lecture, I asked him to send me a letter, you know, indicating how well received a lecture was and things like that. And I got a lot of those letters, and I sent copies
of those letters, and I did my next mail out. So you can't hide your light under a bushel. Nobody ever accused me of that. You understood, Yes, well, and it's been important because you got out there. Like you said, they didn't know about this topic. You know who else does this is Robert Hastings because when I was in school, and you know, my cousin was in school, we would get those and sometimes they would come to us because we were part of these paranormal groups and say,
hey, who is this guy? Is this someone that we should have come to the college. And good. It's great that he does that too, because he's excellent. You know, his work is wonderful and he's getting out there to people outside of this UFO community circle. He's getting to the masses like you were doing way back when before him. He does a good job and I've been proud to say good things about it when people have asked me. And it's not a question of rivalry. It's a question that we're both
on the same team trying to educate the world. After all, there are some nasty, noisy negativists, as I call them, when I'm being played they saying newsman, fossilized businesses. But I'm not totallying, and pr is an important part of the world. Like it or not. I mean, maybe that's not the way it should be. Everything should be determined by publications and scientific journals, blah blah blah, but the world doesn't work that way.
And you know, I was wary when I started lecturing in the mid sixties that somebody's going to give me such a hard time I'll never want to speak again. And so I tried to think of all the objections and answer them in my lecture. And I remember speaking to sections of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics. Now I'm a member AIAA, and I was wary when I first got out there, Who's going to give me a hard time? And I was greatly pleased that and over seven hundred lectures. I've only
had eleven hecklers, and two of them were drunk. I haven't had one of them in a long time. So there's a moral to this story, that is, if you stick to the facts, if you recognize your audience as being respectable, responce, and you use the tools of logic and science and data, and a little humor may be thrown in, you can get through. And I've spoken to lots of technical groups. I think was that
Engineering Society of Detroit. I spoke to several sections of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, several sections of the National Management Association, management clubs for places like McDonald Douglas, and you know, quite respectable institutions. So I was testing the waters and I found if you stick to the facts and respect your audience, people will listen. And I've tried to encourage other people and not trying to hold the world to myself. And I tell people there are
a couple of rules. Never lie and have facts in hand before putting mouth and gear. Because you know you're going to answer questions and say I'll get back in tomorrow on that. You know you got to do your homework. So these are tools that have nothing to do with UFOs. It has to do with whatever you're talking about, especially if it's controversial at all. So I've enjoyed it, and you know, I'm a leo. I like being out in front of the crowds, and I'm lucky on that score. There
were two things. One I enjoy being on the stage and two. At that time, at least, my memory was excellent. And at first I was wary of what did I get things right? Make sure I didn't say anything that wasn't true, and I when i'd go back and check, oh yeah, okay, I got it right. My memory was working. I'm not saying it's working now. That's a different story. So I took advantage of that and I could relax. And also I'm not afraid to say I
don't know. Yeah, I think that's an important one. And I would imagine your debate experience was really important as well, because and it's sort of a problem I think that we have now, is this fear to debate each other. When people hold their ground so tightly, they they're not open to being doubted, and so there's a lot of contention, like get whereas you know, you learned early on in debate to respect your your opponent. Oh yeah, you got to know both sides of the story. It reminds me
of you know, I can't remember what. Oh Kevin Randall. You know, he kind of got thrown into debating on ROSWA and they were like, what side do you want? And he chose the underdog just for the hell of it. Uh. He didn't even know much about any of it, and when that's what got him into it in the first time. So, yeah, the knowing that both sides important and having that ability to respect both sides. And you and I have debated before on things and many others,
and of course it's fun to do that because we learn. That's how we learned from each other. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that you should have the goal of getting at the truth, not of having your ego put forward, you know what I mean. It's not a question of who's winnings. Let's get the facts out there and maybe you'll learn something, maybe you'll change your view the next time, who knows. But I've enjoyed it, and you know, but I must say I'm less fleet of foot,
so to speak, mentally now than I was fifty years ago. My first lecture was in the nineteen sixty seven. Boy, that seems forever ago. That was quite a while ago. And I'm assuming that you were a young physicist at that time. Yes, oh, yes, yeah. I was working for Westinghouse Astro Nuclear Lab and we had an active group in Pittsburgh and we even a UFO research institute. I was an active member and I eventually
became president of the group. But and we sponsored a talk at Carnegie Institute and had a big crowd and they paid little money to get in, and the response was great. What I'm trying to say is everybody was so wary, especially back then, you're going to say flying saucers are real. And I chose that topic that title intentionally, you know, and I put an exclamation point after the real, and I put R in caps. Let's make
clear where that we've taken a stand here. And it wasn't our flying saucers real, but flying saucers are real, you know, And it worked. What I'm saying is that that drew people, it didn't bother them. And you know, I've often had record crowds, and you know, sometimes i'd try to put you on the spot. I did a lecture at the University of Manitoba. We had a packed house, people sitting in the stairways, you know. It was an auditorium kind of thing with sloping upward from the
speaker. And at the end of the lecture, which was mrma Received, there were over six hundred people there. Somebody got up in the question answered and one of the first questions, how about polling this audience, because I had given some data from the Gallup polls, you know, which showed, much to people's surprise, that the greater the education and more likely to believe in flying saucers and stuff like that. How about pulling this audience? He
said. I couldn't tell what side of the aisle he was on, but I said, well, usually I'm the one who six's neck out, you know, not asking the audience to well, I don't think anybody in mind. Everybody collapsed, okay. I asked two questions. I told them, I'll ask you two questions. How many think some UFOs are alien space growing aircraft, I probably said, intelligently control extraterrestrial spacecraft. And how might think
no UFOs are intelligently control extraterrestial spacecraft. I'll ask you both questions. I did that more than ninety percent, so they thought some were wow, that was I mean, this is after my lecture, you understand. And a common comment that I got through all this meandering around the world was that, gee, I didn't know that. I never heard of those studies. And
I got a little sneaky early on. I often would say, I'd talk about five large scale scientific studies and I'd say, how many of you have read this after I talk about it? And typically you know a few, two or three or four, right, And so that served a purpose. It made people aware that, hey, they weren't the only one who didn't know anything, and b there was a lot of people who didn't know much about the subject. Maybe we ought to listen to find out about something.
And you know, it's one of the things. We've got to take a break right now, so we'll be right back and we'll finish that thought, because that goes into a lot of the other people you debate that should know more but don't, And we'll talk about that when we get back. But you're listening to Open Mind GUFO Radio. I'm happy to have Stanton Friedman here with me. We'll be back after the short break. If you're listening to
the podcast, you'll hear a short music interlude. Otherwise, if you're listening on KGr, you'll hear a few commercials from some of the people that keep kg R going. So pay attention to patronize these people. Thanks for listening. We'll be back in just a moment. Welcome back to Open Mind's UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I'm talking with Stanton
Friedman. And you were talking about how in your lectures, you know, people often didn't know much about this topic before you started talking, and we'll get more into that, but there was something else that you talked about, you know, being wary and how you took that bold kind of stance to
name your lecture, you know, flying stars are real. It must have taken quite a bit for a young physicist to even get involved with this controversial field, especially when you're trying to you know, develop your career, and I'm sure you had thoughts to as how this would impact your career. I was wary. I certainly was worry. However, the response from the professional groups early on, like the Engineering Society of Detroit and the Engineering Society of
Cincinnati and several sections of the Americans to do aeronautics and astronautics. Nobody can say these are a bunch of believers. And the response at Los Alamos, I worry a little bit. It was as almost section of the American Nuclear Society and Westing has paid for me to go there to talk to them, which was a compliment in the first place. But there were over four hundred
people there and there weren't any nasty questions. Wow. And so you know, after you go through this enough times, you realize it's okay, stick to the facts, never lie, have yourself be prepared for whoever's going to ask what. And you know, I've had eleven hecklers and over seven hundred lectures. Two of them were drunk. It was funny. After one lecture you realize that guy was drunk. And the first guy that stood up and the thing is you learn to keep your cool. One guy first up in
the question answered period. I just call on the first guy who stands up and he said, I've never heard so much nonsense in one night in my life. Great way to start. Yeah, I said, can you please be a little more specific sir, I wouldn't have told you what I was going to say, but that's what I did say. And so he said, well, you said that Betty and Barney Hill were taken on board a UFO and went off to Zata Reticul line back in two hours. And I said, no, sir, what I said was they were taken on board
a UFO. They remained for two hours, they didn't go anywhere. And he had a couple more like that things that no, that's not what I said. And then someone in the audience said, how about taking some sensible question. This guy gets up and leaves m H and I said, I'll answer your question. But who was that? He was a professors. Oh, he was interesting, obviously didn't know anything about the subject and certainly wasn't
going to admit that. Well, I guess we'll get into this now, because that does make me think of, of course, some of the other people, especially one of the people you debate often is Zess Shostak of SETI. You've had several debates with him, and you know what, I've talked to him. I'm a big fan of his, and he reminds me of
you a bit in that you're both very witty and entertaining. But he over the years, despite having fielded questions in this arena and being asked even in UH mainstream media about this topic, seems to very much resist wanting to educate himself because he still talks in general at ease, and even though he's posed questions to me before any you and others and saying, you know, astronomers
would be into this. So you're like, okay, well look at Peter Sturk, look at you know, Heinech and some of these these Heinich did a report on astronomers and UFOs, look at that. But he doesn't look at any of this. There's no indication that he also looked at any of the research that answers the questions YEA to him. I asked, in the course of one encounter we had how many he was in the audience, And after each of five large scale scientific studies, I asked, how many people
here read this? And he hadn't read any of them, and opteen years later he still hadn't read any of them. Yeah, it's a remarkable thing in today's world with professional people. Look I like said, he's a nice guy. I respect him. He's done a lot to get people interested in life and out of space. Although it was kind of shocked when he said recently, well he lost the debate to me, which he did, but that doesn't mean he was right. You know it, don't bother me with
the facts. My mind's made up. And that's the attitude here that especially the astronomers who seemed to think they should be the ones who answer all UFO questions. I don't know why, what do they know about advanced technology? For example? One of the big questions can you get here from there? I worked on nuclear fish and rockets, which we successfully tested on the ground, the biggest one. I'm still impressed. One of the highlights of my
industrial career. The test was out at the nuclear test side in Nevada and the thing operate operated for the full sixty minutes. It was at a power level of one thousand megawatts. Now hoober Dam produces two thousand. So you get an idea. Here's a reactor system that's less than eight feet in diameter and the exhaust temperature liquid hydrogen, goes in very cold and comes out very
hot four thousand degrees. It was a very impressive test and we Frankly, I have to admit, we had no idea how long is this they're gonna run? Maybe the fuel elements will come out. I mean, operating at
four thousand degrees is not a normal environment for equipment these days. And they announced the temperature and pressure five minutes, ten minutes, twenty minutes, and that all those things were nominal, and gee, we might make it the maximum time we could operate with sixty minutes, because he couldn't store enough loud hydrogen to go more than that, because you needed it for after cooling. And we got the full sixty minutes. And I wouldn't have been surprised.
Nobody would have been. And I was particularly worried. I shouldn't admit it, but I am. I was particularly worried because they asked me between a week and two weeks before the test, Stan, we don't know whether the control elements are going to be cooled enough, and that they might not melt down. Can you get some information for what the radiation levels will be at them, the neutron levels and so forth. Okay, so I ran some experiments, I got help with people down at the nuclear test site and so
forth, and yeah, yeah, it'll work, It'll be okay. But I'll tell you when we started the tests, my feeling was, I hope that thing works because if it doesn't, they're going to blame me. Well, you know it go ahead. No, just that that was a highlight that the successful testing of a real system. And I found most people have no idea that we've done that, and especially the astronomical community. I worked on a study of fusion propulsion for deep space travel when I was at ERGA.
This is back in nineteen sixty two, and we concluded that fusion would do the job. If you had the dough, you could go. And so that's a long time ago, and you'd think the astronomers would be wise on that subject because of all the stars, every single one of them produces its energy by nuclear fusion. But none of them know about fusion or fission propulsion. And the kicker here is we didn't even know there was such a
thing as fission or fusion until nineteen thirty eight. We didn't even know there were neutrons until nineteen thirty two. So one needs to realize that unlike Bishop Usher who said the word was created in four thousand and four BC, the Earth is over four billion years old, and we're just finding out how the Sun works in nineteen thirty eight. Back in the twenties, nineteen twenties, we thought the Sun was a mass of burning gas. Who knew from the
clear fusion. Well, the reason I bring up fusion all the time to people, why are you talking about that? You're not going to use h bombs? Well you might, But the kicker is almost all the energy in the universe is produced. Find uclear fusion in the stars. It's not a mass of burning gas. And there's so much more energy per pound, if you will. A quick example, A big bomb in World War Two produced the energy of ten tons of dynamite. Wow, a blockbuster. They called
it ten tons of dynamite. That was in forty four, nineteen forty five, First Day bomb, sixteen thousand tons of dynamite. That's how much energy. First fusion bomb nineteen fifty two, ten million tons, one stinking bomb. And the Russians said, off tarbomba twenty seven million tons of TNT. That top of energy was released by this one lousy bomb. What I'm saying is bombs are one thing, and yes there are means of destruction, but they can also be used for propulsion the process m and so when I say
man can go to the stars, I mean it. I worked on efficient nuclear rocket and operated successfully so to Los Alamos. There's even bigger four thousand mega wants exhaust temperature four thousand degrees. Now that's a realm that nobody talks about, you know, And this that was you're all back before nineteen seventy, for God's sakes. Yeah, so it's interesting that they stick to that line, you know that you know it's too far, we can't get there.
I asked michi Okaku in the one chance I had a few seconds with him, and then question I asked was around this, you know, because he talked so much about the other civilizations and types that he believes are likely out there. And I asked him, why do you feel that, you know, SETI is, why do they continue with this response that you know these distances are too far? And he said his reply with a smirk, was they're astronomers. What do they know about physics or theoretical physicis so kind
of really along the lines of what you're saying as well. Yeah, I talked to him, I was interviewed by him he had a radio program back way back Glenn and we were both participated in the program. Uh in Saudi Arabia of all places. How do you like that? Oh? Yeah, that one. I think Jacques Valet had something to do with that. Yes,
Jacques did. And there are a couple of other people and one guy didn't really know but then Micheu and uh Shaq and myself when I forget who they the guy was, but yeah, who was Nick Pope one of them? No, I don't think so. But it was an interesting experience, especially when I called them after that. They had invited me out of the
blue. I didn't know who they were. They had a fancy name for the event, and I actually checked to make sure there was such an event, and then I finally decided I better check on something else because people were saying, stand, are you crazy, You're a Jewish, You're going to Saudi Arabia. And so I called the person that a woman as a matter of fact, who was handling things, and mentioned that, you know, I don't want to go there, and then have somebody at the door say
you can't come in. It's a long way. It was a long way. Said no, there's no problem. We've had other Jewish speakers at the symposia and there wasn't. There wasn't. I was treated perfectly normally, and I had dinner with several meals at this conference with we weren't sitting at the same seat each time, so you got to associate with a lot of them, and there wasn't a bit of a problem like that. I could have been at my father's cousin's club that I was comfortable. And I want to
stress that. I mean, you know, people forget the golden age of Jews and Arabs was in Spain, back in like the thirteenth century. There was great respect. And so that's one of the nice things I spoke in China. I had no idea how I would be, what the response would be. They were very nice and sensible. They asked questions, sure, but there was no putting down the subject or putting me down or you know,
it was okay. And again I say that not to brag about me, but to get people to recognize that it's okay to learn about subsequent to talk about it. Just make sure you have your fact straight, that's all. M HM. So when you first got involved at what motivated you then to get involved with this subject, especially you know, like we talked about earlier, early on in your building your career. I was interested in far out technology. My first job, I was working on radiation shielding for nuclear
airplanes. And many people aren't aware that our program in nineteen fifty eight spent one hundred million dollars Kenel Electric. That's not six professors and twelve grad students, now you understand. So I had you know, there were a lot of other people involved, and I didn't have a PhD. Many of our people did. But I was interested in far out stuff, working on nuclear airplanes and then nuclear rockets and doing a study of nuclear your fusion for deep
space travel. I was really excited about Holy cow, we can do these things. And so the first lecture was an accident. Somebody heard me on the radio because they needed entertainment for their book review club that was reading Frank Edwards's book. Sure, why not. I didn't even get paid for it. I got a dinner out of it, I think, you come to think of it. But I was intrigued by the technology aspects, and then I was intrigued once I started doing my homework at how much data there was
that nobody seemed to know about. I'm the one who's brought into prominence Bluemook Special Report fourteen, biggest study ever done on a scientific study. It was done by Betel Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio. As it happens, I had had a contract with where I was involved with the tell at looking at It was an Air Force contract and they were the best source of information.
What did the Russians know about nuclear power in space? And let's see, it had a fancy title analysis an Evaluation of Fast and Intermediate Reactors for Space Vehicle applications. The word Soviet was Nowhere's there? And I was not even allowed to keep a copy of my final report. So I was involved in this far out stuff. And this is pretty early in my professional career. And then once I started speaking and remembered all the debating stuff, I got
it hooked. I enjoyed speaking, and I enjoyed the challenge of keeping ahead of the opposition, so to speak. And you know, I was very terribly disappointed when I was supposed to have the Debate of the Century on April the eighth in Vancouver. I had a big auditorium I'm supposed to debate Michael Shermer of the Skeptic Society and get a nice fee on top of it, as a matter of fact, and it was canceled. I still don't know
why. Maybe I was too eager. Yeah. Well, but and now after all of these years, now that we're almost running out of time, we didn't get to I'll have to have you back because I wanted to talk to you a lot about the state of things now. But I think what we touched upon is really important. But now after all of these years, you're talking about retirement from UFOs, So that's finally going to happen. Well,
I think so. I mean, I think I do have two lecture scheduled after Roswell that have been you know, I'm not going to cancel him just because I'm retiring. People made an honest commitment and they've got an audience, and then'll increase the attendance. I'm sure no one of his last lectures. But yeah, look, I'm going to be eighty four in July. It's time. I used to say, when you played sports, you're a step slower going to first place, well three or four steps, you know,
So it's about time. And also I've never really retired. I mean, you know, I've been speaking since about fifty one years now, and so it would be nice to have a little time for my wife and I to do things. Are not worrying about me traveling all over the place. They got to some weird places. What Lee and I were talking about, Lei Spiegel, Yeah, we're talking about this, and he made a great point at that. I'm sure you by far have done the most UFO lectures
than anyone ever. So yeah, probably way more, probably double your your next closest person, whoever that would be. That's been your thing. You've done so many of them and educated so many different varieties and diverse groups of people on this topic. Yeah. Well, look, I've enjoyed it. I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it. But you know, I get to see all kinds of places. Warsaw, I've spoken in Broke good response in the Polish UFO society, and I was spoken in Finland and Argentina
and Ecuador. That was a weird one. They told me that would be the only one at this huge conference that would be very well attended. There'd be loads of media people there and they wanted me to put up the money for the rip and I said, no way. I'm glad I didn't. Anyway, they brought me in and a very small crowd with outdoor plumbing for the restrooms. And uh, it's just a good thing they paid. At least they didn't make any money on the talk, that's for sure. But
it was a different sort of experience. And I have to you know A J. Gavard and he was there, and matter of fact, he drove me there from me met me in Sao Paulo and we drove over to our there to argent to a ecquitor and the translator was a high school kid who had a course in English, and A J was listening and said, hey, let me do this and he did. H So, you know, that was an experience, and there are lots of little things along the way,
but I've enjoyed it. I got how many I've spoken in nineteen countries? Wow, up the state's ten provinces. See the world, Like I said, be a ufologist. That's amazing. Well we're out of time. This has been a lot of fun, really eye opening and important I think to guide people because a lot of what you did back then is still doable right now and even and you've paved the way for people now it's much easier to do what you did because of you doing this when you did. So
Thank you so much for everything you've done. I'll definitely we'll have to have you on again in the next few weeks so we could talk more. This will just be we'll make this part one all right, and well it snow the next time, hopefully not, but where you are you never know. Thank you. Thank you so much to Stanton for joining us this week. And it's going to be a lot of fun to check back with him. I'm going to try to do it like maybe on a monthly basis, huh,
and hopefully you all don't mind. I find him terribly interesting. He truly is a national treasure and it's a lot of fun because you know, he's such a kind of media darling every time, you know, for me, I pay a lot of attention to you know, the media coming and interviewing people at different events and stuff like that, and it's so easy to put Stanton in front of people and they fall in love with him. He always shares great information and so it's one of the things one of the many
skills he has that will be sorely missed as he leaves the field. Unfortunately, this is so sad, but that means we got to spend a lot of time with him before he goes, and so that's why we'll have him on the show quite a bit and they come month, so that'll be great. Thank you so much, Stan. Also, thank you so much to Martin Willis, a podcast UFO who helps us out with the news at the
beginning of the show. Remember, you can see all the stories we talked about at Openminds dot tv that Linda and Zimmerman, great Saint Patrick's thing is there and it's so much information that is coming out these days with the DoD and Louise Elizondo and all of that. So I'm still unpacking it. We'll have some stories there and I can tell you we'll have more exclusive Elizondo interviews
on the Horizon. We're still in contact and I should be meeting up with him soon actually in the next couple of weeks, so very excited about that. Thank you to Caleb Hanks who does the opening and close music. Thanks to Systematics who created the bumper music, and thank you to you, all the listeners. Thank you for being here every week, and thank you to those of you who said hi at the conference and at other places in the last couple of weeks. That reminds me next weekend I will be this weekend.
This coming weekend, I'm going to be in Boise at tree Fort. I'm gonna be at something called hack Fort where I'm going to be talking about the media and tech, but also I'm going to have a panel that I'll be moderating with Van Hansen and Mark' antonio where we're going to talk about the tech of UFOs and the paranormal. So that's tree Fort. Look it up. Until next time, Audio's moved. Chechos, you are mucous