Roswell CIA UFO Forum: Speigel, Friedman and Cameron

Welcome to UFO Think Tank Craigier with your host Alejandro Rohan. Hello, my friends, Hello, my friend. Hello, that's a Neil Diamond for you. This is a Lejandro Rojas, your host of UFO Think Tank, and we have a very special show today. As you know, the big news out there is this gentleman who works worked for we'll talk about this controversy, this who is claiming that he had something to do well, that he knows all about extraterrestrials, that Roswell was real. He saw a box at the

CIA which led him to believe this. He does not give details what was in the box. However, he does say that what he saw confirmed his belief that it was an extraterrestrial ship that crashed in Roswell near Roswell in nineteen forty seven, and that extraterrestrial bodies were recovered. Terribly interesting news. And I'm sure, as you can imagine, the UFO world is in a bur er and so is the media world. In fact, mister Lee Spiegel, who we had on the show a couple of weeks ago, wrote a story

about this that has taken off coast to coast had him on first. But Lee saw this coast to coast or heard it, wrote a story, and all of a sudden, you know, the Sun and the Telegraph over in the UK is writing about Lee Spiegel's story. So is MSNBC and Fox News and all the big guys out here are covering this story. So they reprinted Lee Spiegel's story and that's about as far as they've gone. Now. Chase is the name of the CIA A officer. He is talking about this because

he has written a book about Roswell. He says, it's fiction and it's kind of about the CIA guy going and finding in this Roswell spacecraft or something like that. I haven't read the book. Hopefully I can get him on the show and we can talk about the book, because I'd like to hear more about the book. And so he had this veddit in other words,

he had the CIA people look at it. And he's selling the book and he's out there talking about the book, and he throws in this little bit that you know what, I actually know Roswell was real from when I saw at the CIA. So you can imagine there's a lot of speculation about why he said what he said. Was it just to sell books? That's pretty much the ending conclusion on all of these mainstream media stories that, of course, the guy's selling a book, so he probably said this just to sell

the book. End of story, and they're moving on. But there are a lot of other possibilities. Of course, a more conspiratorial idea, which is kind of out there, I'm gonna admit, is that the CIA sanctioned mister Change Brandon to say this, and that this is some sort of CIA plan to fool the public or to slowly revealed information. Who knows. Now. This point of view is sort of championed by Grant Cameron, who's on

the show today. So we've got Lespiegle, who broke the story. Lee has since kept in touch with Chase and he actually has had the most communication with Chase branded out of any media people out there. They actually got to meet recently. So we're going to talk to Lee Spiegel about his story and

all of his conversations with Chase Brandon to clarify all of those things. We're going to have Grant Cameron to talk about his perspective because Grant Cameron, as you all know, we've had him on the show a couple of times, one of my favorite researchers has done a lot of research into the government and UFO, so he has a lot of the background to make his case that

this is not an abnormal type of thing if the CIA was involved. He also with somebody's like Grant I'm sorry, Robbie Graham from the UK, from Saucer Smurr. They got together and they wrote it an email to the CIA and about Chase and they responded and said, well, we looked for the

box. We didn't really find anything we can either. Well, they didn't say that tonight, are confirming, didn't I Essentially they said that, in other words, Chase his case, So they didn't really disparage case, but they didn't Chase, but they didn't confirm what he had to say either. So this is all the background and what's going on here. The other person we've got on the show is the man who put Roswell on the map, so to speak, and that is Stanton Friedman. And this is the man

who rediscovered Roswell and essentially made Roswell famous. Of course, one of the most famous incidents. If you say Roswell to somebody in Japan, they're gonna know you're talking about aliens crashing in the desert, and that's all because of the work of Stanton Friedman. So we have these three very special people on the show. I couldn't think of three better people to have together to talk about this topic. And so that's what we've got going on on the show.

We actually talked last night, so I'm really excited about it. Accidentally, it's two Americans, Lee and I and two Canadians. We're talking about the CIA with Canadians. I was joking that that's because the c in CIA that used to be a Canadian, the Canadian Intelligence Agency, and they moved over to America. We stole them in Project paper Clip. That's joke. That's not true, but I thought it was cute to say it anyway.

So we have a tremendous show and some really interesting stuff coming up in just

a few minutes. Prior to that, I want to do a little bit of business before moving on to some news, and I just want to say as far as the Cosmic Exploration Conference, which I've talked about going on here soon with this extraordinary list of speakers, I mean, we have, you know, here's the deal, and I want to tell people, you know, I have been part of a lot of conferences and a lot of people come up to me, listen to the radio show and say, you know,

Alejandro, you talked about how great this conference was going to be, but I see a lot of unsubstantiated stuff. None of these speakers really have much credibility. There's a few, but not many. You know. I was hoping for a higher standard for this conference. And I tell them, you know, I understand that, and I like everybody in this field, that what everybody does. But I do feel there needs to be a space for the highly credible stuff. And you know, there are scientists we keep

talking about scientists are interested in this field. Well let's give them a space to talk, you know, Let's give them somewhere where they can be amongst peers to talk seriously about this topic. And that's what I've done with the Cosmic Exploration Conference. If you're all wondering, I did not seek this. I was looking for a good mix of skeptics and people who are convinced that

there is something to the UFO phenomena. When I put this together, it turned out to my surprise that actually I think we only have maybe two skeptics on the list, although their topics are extremely interesting and they're open minded, skeptical people. Otherwise, everybody else, all the other nine speakers on this list, are convinced that there's really something to this phenomena. We have Albert Harrison. This is really exciting one of the latest additions because he is on

the board or he's a SETI member. He is a professor emeritus of the University of California in Santa Barbara, actually, which is important because it's the Berkeley branch of the University of California that runs SETI, and they have they're just some of the cutting edge on all of this stuff. So he's in psychology and the psychology of space and all of that. Ben McGee, who you've seen on Chasing UFOs, he's going to be there. I became buddies

with him when I got to be on the show. In fact, they're going to air this Friday, so the next episode of Chasing UFOs you will see me out on a SkyWatch with him. So we'll see how this goes. Hopefully it goes well. But he's a really interesting guy. He really is open minded, even though he's seen as kind of a naysayer, and at this conference he's going to talk about some of the convincing stuff that he

did see. So he is very open minded to all of this. So we've got George Knapp, who discovered area fifty one, you know, he put that on the map. Jeffrey Bennett as an astronomer. John Alexander, an Army colonel who did an investigation behind UFOs while he was in the Army. John Peterson, this guy is a founder of a think tank, the

Arlington Institute, who works with defense and all of this. He's also wants to talk about fairly esoteric sort of topic, you know, the importance of this discovery of extraterrestrial life and what he feels the impact will be on society when this happened happens, of which he's in no doubt it will happen. A couple more media people. We've got Li Spiegel who are going to hear in a minute. Leslie Keen, who wrote the national best selling book UFOs.

Generals, pilots and government officials go on the record. Another professor of sociology from Eastern Michigan, and he has a great topic. He wants to talk about why do people react the way they do to anomalous phenomena. Why does the public kind of you know, they get weird about it, as

we know they can get irrational. Why do they do this? Ted Peters who wants to talk about why astrobiology and scientists are afraid of researching UFOs and also that the true impact of discovery of civilizations out there off planet and that the impact they'll have on religion. He did a study on this which is extremely interesting. He's also a professor. And then this is really exciting. Major General Wilfred Debrower, he's retired with the Belgian Air Force, I mean,

for goodness sakes, at general. He's got his own presentation on the extensive and incredible investigation. Really, this is one of the most amazing investigations by a military into a wave of UFO sightings by very credible people. And these were the triangular UFOs in Belgium in the nineties, so really important stuff. I put this together because you, my listeners and others were asking for something like this, and I myself craved for something like this to happen.

Now I need people to register as soon as possible, and I keep telling you my listeners that I love you, and you're probably like, okay, buddy, you're allots to talk. Prove it, and so I will prove it. Here's what I'm going to do till the end of July for the next couple of weeks, because I really want you to come, and I hope money isn't an issue. I really am and I'm not kidding. I've got this thing. It's very low and if you know of other conferences you'll

know that's true. Even though this is at a very fancy place, so Tropic Cana in Las Vegas. This is going to be a lot of fun right in the middle of the strip in Las Vegas. But for radio listeners until the into July, I'm gonna give twenty five percent off. So when you go to register for the conference, use the code UTT so radio listeners in order to get twenty five percent off. If you go to the dinner, then I mean you are practically paying for dinner and getting everything else for

free. But if you go register, use the code UTT simply UTT all uppercase. Actually I don't know if it's case sensitive, but just to be sure, put it in all uppercase UTT and you'll get twenty five percent off, So put that code in there when you are registering for the conference. So I want to get to some news before we're done. Thank you very

much for that. Also, oh and this weekend, I do want to mention too, if you're in the California area, if you're in the La Orange County area, check out Move On LA or Orange County Move On because they do have a benefit going on for doctor Roger Lear. Some of you know his work. He alleges he believes that he's able to extract or has been extracting a few implants from people who believe they've been abducted, and that he thinks there's really something unusual to these things. Now, he was a

skeptic when he went to do this. When they asked him to do this, he said, yeah, you know, I'll do it, but just to get these people on my back off my back and improve that this is just a rock or something. But when he removed this first implant in nineteen ninety five, he thought, wow, this is really strange. It has a membrane that seems to help this thing from being rejected by the body, and the metals are very peculiar. So since then, he's done this over

a dozen more times, or at least. He's a pediatrist, so he only can do surgery like on the foot, but he has worked with other surgeons to remove alleged implants out of other parts of the body. So he has come across some financial issues, I guess, and you can go to move On LA or Orange County move On website and find out about a benefit they're going to hold for him to help him out with these medical bills that came up recently, and that's going on this weekend, so they're gonna have

one in the LA area one in the Orange County area. They got so many members out there that they got to break it up, so pretty cool. And plus they're great guys. My buddy's out there, Steve Murrillo, Jan Harzan run those groups and they're really great guys. And Ryan are Robert Wood, you know, one of the old timers there at Moufon and a great guy. The big news, however, for this week, and the other big story is is the uk X file. So the UK, as

we've talked about, has periodically been releasing UFO files. The big story from the files they just released this week is kind of a big report that was done for Tony Blair on UFOs and should we release this stuff and what's really going on, And essentially the people at the UFO desk, because the UK did have an official UFO desk officer, gave some advice and essentially he said, we don't know what's going on. Many of these things are misidentified,

but we keep an open mind that it's entirely possible that these things could be of extraterrestral origin. So he didn't really say much except for that we don't know, We don't approve for sure one way or the other. But it's still very interesting. There are other debates that you can see there. You know, one guy in the House of Lords saying, you know, our planet is so insignificant. They had probably only come here maybe once every thousand

years. So maybe we're more significant than that, maybe not, who knows. Regardless, that's pretty much just speculation, and so these files are interesting in that way, at least in that there were people in the military or at least in the government who was arguing, we're arguing that, you know, we really should investigate UFOs. There's something here and we shouldn't lend a

blind eye to it. Eventually, Tony Blair did have a lot to do with the freedom of information requests out there, and according to the Telegraph, Tony Blair at one point said it was one of his biggest mistakes the Freedom of Information Act out there, which is unfortunate. You know, he thought, he thinks, I guess he should have been more dutiful at keeping those files closed. One other interesting story that came out today is the UFOs being

seen at China's Phoenix Mountain. You may remember Nick's Mountain. There is a big observatory there. There was a scientist there who really believes in UFOs and talks about UFOs often. There were some UFO scene in the area, and supposedly China was supposed to look into those and give a report, of which they never really did. But there have been some more sightings. There's lots of pictures of bugs that were placed out here, but you know, those

are obviously bugs. But there were some more interesting reports, such as some gentlemen who saw a large black object shaped like an eagle. They said hovered for a while before it zoomed off into the sky. So that sounds more like a traditional UFO signing or some of the more more sterious types. So very interesting stuff in the news today. Remember, you can go to ufodailynews dot com and hit the UFO news feed link at the top to see all

the latest stories. That is the Twitter feed, So you can also join Twitter to be updated on a regular basis, so that you know when you're at work, your phone's gonna buzz and you'll be like, oh my gosh, UFOs and China, I gotta check this out and read the story, and you'll be the guy. You'll be the hit of the office jumping up. Hey guys, there's you a boots in China and everybody like, tell us about it, man, and they'll think, whoa, this guy's cool.

You know everything about UFOs just because you follow my Twitter feed. So thank you all for joining me again here this week, and thank you for joining me. And I'm thank you because I'm sharing with you a very special moment because it was a special moment and it was a lot of fun to speak with some of my best buddies all at once, some of my heroes in the UFO field to do this interview yesterday. So let's go ahead and

have a listen. I am extremely excited. I'm always excited to have these guests on, but threefold because they're all three here to talk about this important case. So we have Stanton, Grant and Lee on the phone. Hello guys, Hello, Hello, all right, so we are here to talk about what is exciting news, at least for us. You know on Chase

Brandon, XCIA employee and his claims. Now, he first talked about this on Coast to Coast on June twenty third, and then Lee, you wrote a story on the eighth, the anniversary of the news on Roswell way back when in nineteen forty seven, and maybe you could give us the basics of your interview at Chase and what his claims are. Well, when I first became aware of him, I didn't even know his name prior to about ten days ago, and I happened to hear the Coast to Coast am interview he

did. He was talking about how while he was still working for the CIA back in the nineteen nineties, he was in a room at CIA headquarters and he found a box with a label on it that simply said Roswell. It was one of many boxes in a room that only a few people had access to. He unlocked the box, looked inside it, saw some interesting things, relocked it, put the box back, and said basically, oh my god, it really happened. And I was listening to some of this interview

and I thought, well, this is a really interesting story. I wonder why I haven't heard much about this in the mainstream media. So I thought, well, I'll take a chance and I'll try and track down Chase and see if he'll talk to me about this. And that's what I did. I found him just over a week ago, sent him an email. That's how I contacted him, and he called me back right away. He said sure, let's talk about it, and from that I wrote the story.

He published it just last Sunday. So I wrote the story to coincide with July eighth, that being the sixty fifth anniversary not of the crash of Roswell, but of the anniversary of when that famous headline appeared in the Roswell Daily Record that said that the Roswell military had captured Applying Saucer. And so for that story, I included all these quotes from Chase Brandon and then it's like, you know, the blank hit the fan at that point in the whole

UFO community that's still in an uproar over who is this guy? Can we believe him? Can we trust him? Did he make it up? He's got a book out now, a science fiction book about coincidentally about a CIA man who stumbles onto the secret of Roswell. Well, of course it's just garbage. Brandon's just trying to just push a book. That's where all the criticism has been about. The guy's been under amazing pressure since the story came out. But you know, he kind of brought it on himself. I

think, as well, Now your story went big. It went to MSNBC, it went to Fox. Everybody all big news is covering a Yeah, did he get a hold of you? He was a little shy about all this attention. Huh. Well, you know what, I actually called him after all the attention started coming out, and I just basically wanted to see how he was doing. And at first he wasn't really happy because he was concerned that people were just jumping on him about the claims that he made rather

than trying to give him a chance to focus on his book. And I said, well, well, you know, you started this chase and now you have to ride it out. I mean, you're the one who made these statements. You're dealing with a very sensitive community here that will jump on almost anybody's statements about anything in the UFO field these days, and so you've got everybody up in arms talking about this. You had to know this was

going to happen, and now you have to deal with the consequences. And I don't know how long it's going to last, but as with many things in the UFO world, it will die out and make way for something else. I'm already on the trail of a couple of other hot topics, but we won't talk about that today. Well, I know it should go ahead.

Let's me add one thing in there. Because it was mentioned the sixty fifth anniversary of the story in the Rosweld paper, the Roswald Daily Record, I should point out, and this comes up very often that many people think that's the only place the story appeared. Well, as it happens, it appeared in evening papers on July eighth from Chicago West, front page stories all over the place, but not on the East coast because of the timing of

the release. There's a guy who is now a member of Congress from Minnesota. I did a show in New York and well, it couldn't have been a big story if it only made to Roswell paper. I had sent those people a number of articles from other papers, like the Chicago Daily News, like front page, Los Angeles Herald Examiner, big front page, and the Sacramento b and one of the San Francisco papers. And it's all over the place, and it's important only because people want to minimize the importance of this

story. You know, it was just in a tiny Rosweld paper. Well it wasn't just in a tiny Rosweld paper. And as a matter of fact, the Los Angeles Herald Examiner had the initial story and the headline was something like Rosweld captures or Air Force Army Air Force captures UFO in Roswell region and general thinks it's a radar weather gadget. Those were all in the same page, front front page, headline, story, big story. So you know this story hit overseas, it hit other places. And how four hours late

later, right very quick? So yeah, I wanted to ask it must have been a kind of a shocking to you. I mean, you uncovered this late in the seventies where you talked to Jesse Marcel and he told you what he told you. And when you went back and did the research and found all of these headlines that you're talking about, were you pretty shocked? Were you like, wow, look at all these headlines? How could this have been lost to history? Well? I was surprised at that because it

was only after a third story. Tucking to Jesse was the first story. And then I talked to a man up in Minnesota imidg You State College. She talked about the Barney Barnett story. Basically, you know, have you ever heard anything about crash in New Mexico? Yes, tell me more.

So I got names and so forth. And then I shared that with Bill Moore because I was going to be in Minnesota and he had third story from Flying Saucer Review in which an English actor said, as he was driving across the country he heard on the radio about a crass saucer in New Mexico and Bill could talk to his son who was living in Canada. I eventually talked to him in England by phone. Anyway he could pin down the date.

Because it wasn't a trip you made very often from LA to Philadelphia. You can imagine what the roads were like in nineteen forty seven, roughly first week of July nineteen forty seven. So Bill went to the periodicals department in University of Minnesota, which had a good collection, and there was a story and it verified what Jesse had told me. It gave us new names, and you know, we pitched in after that. We found sixty two people in

the next year and a half. And yeah, the story was all over the place, but not on the East coast, you know, the New York Times, Washington Posts, Dinca. They had to cover up story. The next day, when I went back and checked, I found indeed, there was a blurb in Frank Edward's book Flying Saucer's Serious Business about half a page, and Ted Blocher's The nineteen forty seven UFO Wave had a paragraph or so. They both got it kind of wrong, frankly because they hadn't seen

enough different they caught the cover up story, you know. So it was just a lot of baloney. But yeah, it was surprising, and I, you know, I had known when I first talked to Jesse that forty seven was a big year for UFO, you know, Kenneth Darnold and well over a thousand sightings in that summer. But yeah, it shocked me. And but we went at it and kept finding stuff. And that's the thing that when people tell you, well, you know, justin the Roswell paper

and so forth, that's baloney. But one of the things that's characterized and public discussion of Roswell has been there's been an awful lot of baloney. I think we were in a delicate testlinger or something, right, the noisy negatives we're serving many baloney sandwich. Ye. Unfortunately, that happens a lot in

the media. Now I do want to get too into We'll get to more on the history of the investigation, but as far as the chase timeline goes grant, then you and a group of researchers got together and you emailed the CIA and they actually responded. It sounds like they didn't answer all of your questions, but one, so, what didn't they answer and what did they answer? Well, they basically didn't answer anything, which is what I predicted

would happen. I should basically tell you our what happened with us was. It was kind of weird because I got dragged into it by Robbie Graham and Chase. Chase is the sort of media expert for the CIA, and our expert is Robbie Graham, who does Silver Saucers the relationship between UFOs and Hollywood from Great Britain. He's doing his PhD on the subject, and he works with doctor Matthew Alford and they were working on this story and they were on

it from the word go. And I heard about this back like in June, just after June twenty third, when he was on coast to coast and they came to me and they said, this is a big story and nobody's covering it. And Robbie put up a story on his website, and still it really didn't really take off, And it really didn't take off until Lee did the article. But Lea did the article like sixteen days after he made the first statement. Until then, it was like Robbie couldn't believe me.

He offered it to make basically every major news outlet in the United States, and nobody would take the story. It's just sort of died there until Lee did the story. So my interest was and I was involved in this effort to send a letter to the CIA too because our obvious question to start was how did this guy get on Coast to Coast And we took contacted George Knapp and that, you know, why did you interview him? Why didn't the

George Norri interview him? How did this guy get on there? And of course our questions to the CI were did you authorize this guy going on the CIA? And then there's sort of a clarification. People may object with me, but in both Coast to Coast interviews, he he states that he is still CIA. Everybody keeps talking about as an ex CIA he is states he's under he's he retired, but he's on under contract. So as far as

I'm concerned, he's still a CIA guy. And my number one thing was how does this guy get to go out and talk because I know from my experience working at the University of Manitoba that you can't just go as a member of the University of Manatoba and go out and talk to the media. We got in big trouble for doing it. So how does this guy get to sort of go on a major radio talk show as a CIA guy and drop this bombshell? And so our reaction was always what is the CI, saying

like, did the CI authorize him to go on Coast to Coast? Did the author rise him to talk to Lee? Did the CI talk to him between the time did he talked to Coast to Coast when we talked to Lee? Did they talk to him, you know, before he went on the second time with Coast to Coast. My reaction, I don't think this has

really been resolved is what was the involvement of the CIA. So there was a doctor Alford, Robbie Graham, Victor Viggiani and myself and I said, maybe the problem is here, we don't have any Americans signing this this letter to the CIA. We had offered some Americans nobody would would come on the letter with us. But so here's two Britons and two Canadian guys writing this letter to the CIA. And we just basically demanded these answers, like how

did this guy get on the show? Did you authorize this? You know? And all these sort of questions, is this is this real? Is this guy for real? And all these kinds of questions. And the response that we got back was very encouraging. It said, we will look into this and we will let you know. And this was Robbie Graham wrote drafted the letter. So they wrote back to Robbie Graham copy of the rest of us. And so we were were kind of excited that they were actually going

to talk to Chase. They were going to ask them about this. And that was where I think the story for us sort of died, was we never got an answer to what are they going to do? They got this story that they're being questioned and Billy Cox was questioning them. And I assume that Lee probably wrote the CIA letter. Everybody's writing them letters about this guy

making these statements. And my concern was what would they do. They would pull the coast to coast, they would hear what he said on coast to coast and they would phone the guy and they would say, what did you say? Why did you say this? Did you got no authorization to say this? Where are the files? We want to find the files. Where are the files? And so when it came to the end of our short story was the CI just came back and said we could we heard the story.

We can't find any documents and that's it. And Billy Cox actually talked to the archivist and tried to get the archivest to elaborate on this, and the archivist just simply said, I'm not going to say anything more than what's in the CIA statement, and they just sort of died. And my basic impression, after my whole involvement, was this is what they've been doing for the last fifty or sixty years, putting this stuff out and then pulling it

back and going back to their position. We're not involved, we don't know what's going on, and the story gets out there and they go on with their merry business. In the UFO community, we all get into fights and sort of rehash it, and it just goes on to the next story. Well, there is another part of this. They did someplace along the way. The CIA referred to that lousy Haynes story, the historical story. Remember that I saw a reference to that somewhere and that was a terrible story,

lies and more lies and all that sort of thing. And they wouldn't. I tried to write him, and I've got no answer. Yeah, the CIA loves to play games because he can get away with it. Nobody's telling them, Hey, you guys got to answer these questions. Yeah, And there's an important part that when Chase talks. In both these interviews, he talks about this. He says that basically, the CIA has all this oversight. We can't do anything. We've got our arms tied behind our backs,

and we answer to the people at sixty thousand feet. And he keeps talking about this. We work for the people at sixty thousand feet, the President, the Executive Branch, the congressional intelligence committees, all these people think that they really don't do anything except work for these people. And so to me, that's the important part is the CIA doesn't go out and start making cars. They don't. They you know, they have to do what they're told

to do. They're working for these agencies, and therefore running around and playing with UFO researchers must be something that they're being told to do. I can't see that they would just nothing to do that day. If that's happening, though, I mean, we'll get there, we'll get there. But let's talk about some more things. If that's happening, and we know that certainly Chase is I wouldn't say he's sent some information out. Is he playing with

you UFO people. He came back on coast to coast on the twelfth and I know, Lee, you've had, out of everyone, the most conversation with Chase you met with them. I sat with him for over an hour yesterday in New York City. You guys are good buddies now. So either you've gone to the dark side and you're helping him play with the UFO people or what I mean, what are your impressions having talked to him that do

you see this as the CIA playing with UFO people again? Well, you know this whole thing about what the CIA responded with about how you know, we checked somebody to look for the box who couldn't find anything, you know, thanks for thanks for inquiring. You know, they can only go one way or the other, and they chose, I guess the higher road, because the only other thing that they could have said was yes, we found the box that said roswell on it. Yes there's lots of great evidence in

there. Yes there are photos. Well, of course they're not going to say that. So they could only go one way or the other. They either say yes, we admit it or no, we can't find it. What else could they have done. They couldn't respond in any other way besides those two ways. And they know that and there's something clever or secretive about that. I think that Chase was walking a very fine line when he said to me, when he said, look here, I saw some things in

the box. I saw some materials. There were photographs, and it validated to me everything that I believed about what happened. It was no damn weather balloon. It was the spaceship from somewhere else, and there were cadavers. And it's all I'm ever going to say about it. And even yesterday when I was sitting with him in New York, I said, listen, I hope none of this is going to affect your pension from the CIA. He said, no, no, it's not a problem. Fine, I'm pushing

my book now and it's all I really want to talk about. And I said, but Chase, your book is about a guy who's with the CIA who uncovers the Roswell secret. So so you're talking about it either way. Yeah. Well, and to your point earlier, he had to have known. He had to have known it would get back to the CIA that he's telling people he saw a box with this Roswell stuff in it that indicates to him there are extra threstrills a craft that crashed with bodies retrieved. So he

had to have known. Is he playing a bit naive if he's kind of playing dumb like, oh, I didn't know this would be such a big deal. He had to have known it would be a big deal, not just to the media, but also to people at the CIA. I mean, even if this is innocent that they don't know anything. At the CIA, he had to have known it would be a big headache for them if he went out and said this, let alone, what other possibilities there?

Meaning there's another aspect of this that I'm becoming a I also just did stories about the very recent release by the British government by the Ministry of Defense of a new batch of UFO files. And the man who's been totally behind that and involved with that is a doctor David Clark in Great Britain. And he was telling me the other day that at least in the British government, behind the scenes in places like the archives, the National Archives, and he suspects

it might be like that in America. There are a lot of incompetent people there who don't know where things are. Things are not properly categorized or saved or compartmentalized, and especially when you have people who they work on a job for a certain amount of time and they leaven someone else comes in and takes their place. They don't know where this stuff is. They don't even really know how to help you find stuff. Even I found a little of that

at the National Archives. And stand, I know you've spent a lot of time at the archives in Washington. Do you find the same thing there? Well, yeah, I've been to twenty archives. And let me give you a specific example. One of the archives of the Eyes in our library was telling me that a journalist comes in and says, can you put Majestic twelve in your computer and so we can see what all you've got? No, I cannot Why not? Well, our stuff isn't computerized. Well how am

I going to find out anything? Well, you tell us. We'll give you a list of the files of the subjects. You tell us which boxes you want, we'll bring you the boxes. There's a limit of twelve, and you go through those and if they're withdrawal sheets, so we can see about trying to get you that material. Maybe it takes a year or two. But the reporter was totally Gotsmack to use the English expression because he thought everything was computerized and easy to get and it isn't. And I had a

guy email me. He'd liked my research and wanted to know if I could say a few things about how important the Internet was to my research. And I said, well, you know, it's easy. It's nice not to have to go over to the university a mile and a half away to find out who won the Nobel Prize in physics in nineteen fifty eight. But you know, I can do it from my desk. But aside from things like

that, it had very little role. Well what do you mean, I said, Look, I've found out some very important stuff about Donald Menzel at Harvard. There's no way to find out that stuff until I went there, and I took permission from three different people to get to see that stuff, and it took weeks to get copies of things. The Internet didn't have a

role in that. So there's this crazy notion that everything is all out there and it's all computerized and you push a few buttons and you'll have everything you want to know. And you know, it just isn't like that at all. It's moving slowly that way. But there's a huge of the entire library, fifty thousand pages of a National Security Council material. Overall, I got maybe fifteen or twenty million pages of information. So you want to do research,

you could go there. And so it is interesting the CIA didn't even exist as such at the time of Oswell. And you know, I'm sure that the need to know concept is very important there. So that was an absolutely true statement. They don't know where things are, and it's not there's no master guide, in other words, to where you find things. One example, I'm looking at the Vanavar Bush papers and there's lots of them,

and I saw, oh, there's a listing correspondence with Donald Menzel. Well, it was a very important piece of mail that I've found, but I wouldn't didn't expect to find that when I went there, had no idea there was anything there. So, and I want to ask you and grant this, because he's also spent a lot of times in archives. Then that part of this story of him stumbling across this box that has Roswell written on it, how does that sit for you? Does that rid true as a possibility?

Yes for me, it does. Anyway, remember this wasn't a regular archives. What was the fancy name of that facility. It's I've got the website up, which is interesting because it seems like it is a library mostly of books. It's called the Historical Intelligence Collection. It's housed at the CIA Library. Although I did find a quote here, you could go on their

website and find out a lot about all of this stuff. But it does say that they also have on display some artifacts, like different artifacts that have been interest to intelligence in the past. Well, what I'm saying is most archives now have boxes and boxes archival boxes about CENTRISTEEP special paper, that's the non polluting and stuff, and they're just tons of these, like in the Raiders of the Lost Archive? Is that what it was? You know?

And the way, well at the National Archives, the way they measure how much material they have, like Record Group three forty one ninety one hundred and thirteen feet of material that's feet of shelf space. This is the airport's intelligence files from the early fifties. Now nobody's read all that stuff. Nobody knows what all is in there. You got to go there, you know, can you imagine trying that's about one thousand and four drawer of five right one

file. So you know, people act as if there are some super smart people who push buttons and make entries and you know, outcomes everything you want to know from the machine. Nobody knows what all is there, which is because a lot of people think that they can just browse on the internet and find everything about the CIA and Roswell and Alien just from browsing on the internet.

But you can't. That's what's great about you. And that's also what's great about Grant Cameron, is you know, doing the hard work going to these places. What about you, Grant, You've spent a lot of time going through archives, looking at files. How does that part of the story

sit for you? Well? I was a little more suspicious because my experience in I've been to a lot of archives is that they're I mean, maybe I don't know where a lot of stuff is, but they're very professional and they're very sort of anal It's like, you know, put one file out at a time. In the box has to be the left. You can't run of you, and so they can't so they can see what you're doing, and you can't use pens and you have to you know, there's like

a million rules. It's like being in grade one. And and my problem with it was the handwritten thing. Now maybe it had just come into the archives. Possibly. I had a problem with the handwritten thing because most of these guys are fairly well paid and everything is you know, the proper labels and and all this kind of stuff unless it hasn't been processed yet, which

is a different story. The other problem I had with the with the box was where everything is sort of together, that if it's uh, you know, if it's compartimentalized stuff, that you're gonna have the documents and the photos and and all the material that you could possibly need in the one box where you could all sort of put it together, rather than well, I think it was a miscellaneous box, you know, the leftovers from the extensive files.

But I don't know so that I had very extensive files on Roswell, you know. But he's he's that's where he's starting to go. Now he's in his last interview. Now he's saying it's like, you know, somebody cleaned out their desk and they just threw all this stuff in there, and that's sort of what it was. And that goes back to the to the Corso thing was the filing cabinet that you know in the with the paper clip that somebody threw all the rosweld material in there and left it sit there for

twenty years. And to me, that's not how they do it either. I think they're a little more professional than just throwing stuff into a box. And then when he brought off the the one that really sort of threw me off was when he referred to the little o'layed with blue hair and the tennis

sneakers as running the place. And I'm thinking, there are no people's the National Archives and at the Langley little old ladies with blue hair and tennis shoes who are running this, you know, top secret archives where they're keeping this type of material. Some of a lot of the stuff just didn't ring true to me. And what I thought he was just simply doing was he had

as access to classified material. But he has a quote in his second in his second interview, he says, and he quotes from Bacon, Francis Bacon. He says it's the key quote that deals with the book. He says, truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible and That's why I think he just did he had access to classified material. He can't tell you where the classified material is, where he saw the material, So you create a fictional story that he founded in a box and

some archives. And then that's so he's saying the box is not classified. When he's talking about the box. He said it is not classified the box talking about the box, and that's because as far as I'm serting, the box doesn't exist, he saw the material somewhere else. And when you get to the specifics of I'm not going to talk what I saw in the box because if he identifies a specific photo or a specific document that is classified, that's why he won't talk about what's in the box, but he will talk

about the box. Because he's the fiction guy. He works, you know, undercover, he's the media guy. He's the guy, you know, the silver tongue devil that can you know, sort of charm a flyoff a pile of Dodo. He's the guy, and he just makes up these sort of stories that weave this thing in there, and he's sort of telling the truth about what's going on, and he's just using this fictional thing the same as his book. He says his book went through the review three times.

They wanted this taken out, they wanted this taken out, they wanted this add it. And he's doing the same thing. He's creating a fictional story to tell his story of coming in contact with the Roswell material. I'm just skeptical it wasn't in a box. It was someplace else that he saw it. And he's using the box as a fictional type story to explain where he got the classified material because he can't tell you it was in box whatever whatever

and whatever archives it actually wasn't. That's a classify He can't talk about that. So he makes up the story about the box. It's not classified and he can talk about it. Yeah. Well, the guy, he was in the agency for so long that he certainly would be familiar with techniques for misrepresentation, for covering things up for you know, he's got a long history

of that. And remember he's been dealing with the movie guys for quite some time now as far as I can tell from right, And there's definitely Masters of Deception. Anybody who has worked on one of these UFO documentaries knows that. But Lee, what were you going to say, Lee, well, I was going to say that I haven't heard a lot of people write about or comments about this, and that is that Chase basically said that to CIA.

Yeah, it's a CIA calling. Chase said that he saw stuff in the box that validated to him everything he had believed and what he knew other people had talked about that actually happened at Roswelt. Nowhere did he say, although he didn't seen him right, that someone at CIA told him this stuff was real. Nobody came up to him and said, you know, we'd

like to tell you about some things that happened at Roswell. You have a high enough clearance of security clearance that we can tell you that I haven't seen anything like that. It says if he's trying to use a little bit of misdirection and get people to think that it's all true even though he's not saying anybody at the agency confirmed this information. Well, my question too, is that it could he be misinterpreting this stuff. The CIA definitely collects stories from

the media. I'm sure they have Danton's books, you know, some Grant's work, your stories, So could it be that these were stories from the media or books and material that wasn't generated from the CIA or possibly not to the government at all in this collection, because that's what this collection seems to be collecting, and he just misinterpreted or felt, oh, hey, Stanton's book was in this box and I read it, and now I believe in

Roswell. Well, you know, it's an interesting thought because we don't have a specific year when it was late nineties, mid nineties. He said that it was in the mid nineties when he was in that room. Yes, yes, okay. The first book came out in nineteen eighty, the berlitz More Book. Several books since then, so you know, that's an interesting possibility. And also, you know, you find all kinds of inconsistencies when

you're dealing with archives and agencies. People think everything is straightforward, inaccurate and earthing is checked, and it isn't like that at all. And it's very frustrating when you try to get answers to questions because often the answer is I don't know. And I've got to know one of the archivists at the National Archives pretty well, and you know, they have a difficult job because nobody

quite knows what's going on. Like they kept the Cutler Twining Memo in a separate box at the National Archive. So because so many people were asking to see it, it was separated from where it had been in the first place, and it was found in a place where it shouldn't have been. So, you know, who knows, somebody's really being very careful overseeing everything that's

going on. Also, I have had several other stories I'm sure Grant has too, of people who had clearances and who were in an archive for some other reason and wandered around a little bit and found stuff that they probably shouldn't have seen, but because they had the clearance to be in there in the first place. In other words, nobody's really yes, when you sit at the table at the eyes of our library, that eagle eyed gallop on the desk is watching you. And I've had her come back and say only one

polder at a time. Yeah, I mean that happens. But what I'm saying is people who have clearances get into places and nobody's looking over their shoulder all the time. The question was that they have the clearance to be in there, you know. And so at the National Archives, the guy I knew took me down into the archives where you have to be escorted, because he didn't want to keep running up down the stairs. We were trying to

find where certain stuff was. We had a long list of documents, but we didn't know which was in which box, which made it terribly proSP That's a perfect example, you know, I got a listing here, and day I want to see this. We I don't know what box ha'ds in. So perfection is not what happens in archives, to say the least. I can I add a little quick story to that, Alejandro, Yeah, go for it. Several decades ago, when I was a writer for the old

Omni magazine, I went to Washington for the National Archives. I was looking up a few things just in their microfilm database, and I found in microfilm a reference to a series of UFO sightings from nineteen sixty five over Edwards's Air Force Base, and I thought that was interesting, and I pulled up some more information about it, and there were some descriptions of things that had been seen by several Air Force personnel on the day or on the night in question.

And I noticed at the very bottom of the description it said supplement materials. You know, please ask at desk or something like that, and so I went through the desk and I said, what are these supplementary materials? And they looked it up and they said there are audio tapes. And I said, really, is there any way of getting those audio tapes? And they said, well, hold on, and a few minutes later somebody came

to where I was sitting in a room. They brought in a box and in this box were about ten or eleven reel to reel audio tapes and they said, here's all the stuff you asked for. And I said, well, do you have a machine that I can listen to these? And they did, and they brought me to an audio room and I put some of these tapes on and I was blown away because I was listening to real,

authentic recordings from so many different people at Edward's Air Force Base. Rateur control operator tower personnel, people on the ground, people in jets that have been scrambled. Went on for hours and hours and hours of this amazing display of UFOs over Edward's Air Force Base. And I said to the archives, can can I take these tapes? And they said, well, no, of course you can't, but if you if you'd like to bring your own tape recorder in we can let you have dubs of this stuff. And I said,

okay, that's great. Have other people asked about these recordings? They said, no, you're the first. You're the first person who's ever inquired about them. Because people just didn't know about them and didn't care. We didn't have them hidden anywhere. So I went I went back to New York, got my tape recorder, my cassette recorder with cables, went back to the Washington Archives and I sat there for hours and I dubbed the material and

I turned it into an omnipiece. And the stuff is incredible to listen to, and no one else had it right, and it wasn't it wasn't hidden anywhere. I just had to go there. Like stances, sometimes you've got to go there and look at the stuff and look for it to find it. Well, yeah, I mean looking at you know, some of the

because Grant will keep me up to speed away he's researching. I've read Santon's books, and when you read those you get this idea that there are so many files that even today there could be there's definitely hidden treasures out there in files arts that are still yet to be found. Yeah, so let me

call the problem. The problem is the cost. Incidentally, it takes money to go to the archives, to spend time there, to eat and sleep and you know, do all those things and to dupid as he said, if somebody would finance all this stuff, I would have been happy to spend full time doing it, right. Can I add one little quick story?

I stant was talking about what's inside these archives? I was approaching when I was at Eureka Springs lecturingers by one of the people who worked in the vault at the National Archives, and his wife had been interested in the whole MG twelve document thing, and she was showing it to him. He had no interest with sever and he suddenly got interested. He said, well, I'm gonna see if this m J twelve thing is for real. And he told me and this would be interest that and I don't know, maybe A told

Stanton before. Uh. He told me. He says, you know, I think that that Cutler twenty memo was for real. And I said, well, why do you think that? And he said, well, me and me and a couple of the other guys went there one time on our break and we looked at it and I can tell by the way they're they're

keeping control of it that they think it's for real. If they didn't think it was for real, they wouldn't And he mentioned that, you know, it was in plastic and they were doing all this type of stuff and how they stored it and stuff, and he said, this is this was significant to him, that that there maybe there was something to this when he saw how they were storing the document. He's a guy that that that actually is

the guy that these these classifications and withdraws documents. And so he went to his teams. They work in teams of four, and he was with various teams and he would tell them, I'm looking for MG twelve documents. If you see anything with MG twelve, I want to know. And he said to me, he said, if it's justifiably classified, I'll you know, stamp it classified and it won't come out. But if there's no reason to

declassify or to withhold it, I'm going to release the documents. So he had his all his buddies and they were all looking for the m J twelve documents. They were to notify him if they saw something with MJ twelve and one of the archives and he mentioned the guy's first name was the Spanish name, and he said, this guy recalled years ago that yes, he did see stuff with MJ twelve when he was doing SUS stuff. He was firing

joint system material and he'd seen the twelve stuff on documents. So here's the type of stuff where you get approached by somebody inside the vault. And I actually went and I talked to him, and Ryan would talk to him extensively. And this guy is inside the National Archives and he's declassifying, you know, and he does what he does, Like one day he's doing nineteen fifty army stuff. The next day, whatever they tell him to do, he's

doing. Yeah, but he says he's got his eyes open and if m J twelve stuff comes up and there's no reason to withhold it, it's coming out. Hadn't seen it yet, though. Huh. Okay, let me go around and let's start with Grant. I want to ask this question from everybody, and I think I have an idea from what you've said so far what your answers would be. And we'll get more into the other possibilities,

but we'll start with Grant. So, do you believe Chase's statements were live statements he just made solely to publicize his book, which is the kind of the overall feeling that most of the media is kind of putting out there. Well, that's part of it. He's promoting his book. But as he said, his book went through this review two or three times, and he said it they gave him a hard time and they wanted stuff taken out. The whole point is the CI says had been involved in nineteen fifty three,

that don't have any interest. Why are they pulling stuff out of this book, which is definitely a book on UFOs. And he talks about the second book. He's got another book coming out in sixteen to eighteen months once this is done. It's on UFOs too, And he said that one really good. I thought. He said, the second one is not on UFOs. No, he said, it's a fiction book. It's not a science fiction

book. It's a fiction book, but it also deals with UFOs. He talks about in the same an interview, and he said that one really got hammered by the reviewers. And to me, that's the whole thing is, why are the reviewers if they don't know anything about UFOs aren't interested in UFOs. Why are they pulling this stuff? And why is Chase fighting? He said, I was fighting to get this stuff back in there, and so he's not fighting about He's a guy that plays by the rules. He knows

what the rules are, sources and methods. He's not going to fight about sources and methods. He's fighting about different parts of the UFO story. But did he say that explicitly that it was UFO stuff they were taking out that I wanted back in. Well, he said they were taking stuff out, so we don't know necessarily, could be the First World War trench warfare stuff. I kind of doubt whether it's, you know, the First World War stuff, And then he makes someone needs to ask that question. Just well,

that's what I think has to happen. Is I know I was going to ask Lee. My question to Chase would be, did you talk to CI? Did the CI talk to you? I don't care what Chase said. I it's irrelevant. I want to know what is the CIA's role in the whole thing, and that has not been established. What Chase says could

all be just him publicizing a book, or or he's interested. He's like a guy inside there, and you're a you're a good old boy, and you've got some of the story and you're interested in UFO, so we'll let you write your book. It's like it's it's almost like an agent who wants to tell the story that he was a James Bond spy and he wants to tell his grandkids and that he was he saved the world, and they let him write a book. They fictionalized the book, and he tells the truth.

So that's what Chase is telling the truth in this book, and it's all fictionalized. I want to know what was the CI's role, and that has not really been established by anybody interviewing, and we have I know Jerry Pippen has tried to contact him. He will not talk to Jerry Pippen. H matt doctor Matthew Alford has contacted him again. He talked to him once. He will not talk, he will not respond to his letters. Those other people are gonna ask the questions, and it has not been established.

So I don't think we can really say it. But I think the CIA, my guess is a CI has some role. They're not sitting on the sidelines watching this guy just sort of. You know, I'll take the story viral on the internet. Stanton, what do you think do you think that is well? I think that there's a lot of truth in the story. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some fiction as well. And agents. I mean, what if he got thirty some years with the CIA. You

expect there to be cover story mentality all the time. You know, you leave out things, you dress it up a little bit. I was in touch with Robbie Graham. He wrote me a couple of years back. So when I checked with him, in found that Chase was on their screen. You know, for years as a guy who did what he said he did. He worked with the movies in Hollywood and so forth as an advisor.

So I don't think it's one hundred percent true. I think partly to protect himself, but I think he wasn't thinking too wisely, because I think he did cross a line. I worked under curity for fourteen years, and you get to be very cautious about that. Now Here he was in a situation where he wasn't dealing with other people with clearances. I think he got a little careless, a little carried away, and so the fact that it seems to fit in with his book is you know, neat for him. But

I think mcniy sounds like he's too sharp. Yeah, that's the thing. He does, seem like very savvy. And I guess because you are a Roswell expert, the Roswell expert, at least the details of what he's saying in extraterrestrial craft crashing with bodies fund I mean that at least fits what you believe to be check. Yes, it certainly does, and no question about

that. And certainly, you know, when you look at all the other crazy stuff that's come out, think of Annie Jacobson, what nixt book with the deformed Japanese and the other book about the Germans, they have so little substance to them. He or he hasn't said anything that goes beyond the pales, so to speak. And so you know, what we don't know is how long he's been interested in Roswell or do we know that to grant or lead? Do you know if he has indicated he's been following us for twenty

years or anything. I don't think he's been following I don't know if he's been following for twenty years. But all that he said to me was that he has had a long standing belief because he knows about the original stories. And he said, he said to me, look, I cannot fathom that there were so many different kinds of eyewitnesses there in nineteen forty seven, both military and civilian. Is it really possible that every single one of these people

who initially came forward and had an interesting story to tell? Were they all coerced into lying? Or did they all come together as a group and say, hey, let's put out this urban ledgen and about something that crashed there.

I mean, what are the odds? He kept saying to me, what are the odds that so many people would have come together and lied about something or made up this kind of a story back in nineteen forty seven, when things like that won't even really talk much about in a place like Roswell in New Mexico. And let me assure you that many of these people didn't

come forward. I've had people say, well, how come Jesse marsall came forward to you stand, you know, like he knows you're a UFO expert, so he's making up a story for where me he didn't come forward? And Bill Moore and I when we tracked on sixty two people in a year and a half, we had to find them. We went after them. They didn't come running to us. It took you know, a lot of dog work and huge phone bills. Is before the internet, you understand,

to find these people. Look, I had to dig out Thomas Jefferson Dubos. I had a hunch he might be alive and if he probably came from West Point because all kinds of officers after World War Two were West Finders who stayed in They were career people. So I called the West Point the alumni association. Yes he's still around, and they gave me some hints about where he was. And I had trouble finding because he was only down in Florida in the wintertime in the summer time. But I found him. I was

going to Florida. I met with him. He didn't go volunteering to me, which is true of the recent witnesses that Don Schmidt and Tom Carey have also been looking for. I mean, they all you all have to do research to find who was there when, who might have known something. Hunt these people down, call them up and see if they're willing to say something an interesting point, an interesting point when they talked about the Roswell thing, and I think it was Tom Carey said it, it's sort of maybe sort

of applies to this. He said that any of the lot or not all or but a lot of the witnesses who came forward, who volunteered with stories almost always turned out to be not true. It was the ones that they had to track down that were the real significant stories. And so there again is a question about Brandon sort of coming forward in this when nobody's really asking him about, well, what about Lee, We didn't get to you. Do you believe the statement or false mat just to publicize this book? Do

you get that sense? No? I don't get the sense from Chase. And yesterday he told me that just in this first week alone, that everything has kind of come down on him for what he's been doing and saying, he said that the CIA thinks of it more as a nuisance factor. They don't really have the time, they don't want the time, they didn't want

to have to talk about this or defend themselves. He's pretty much kind of on his own about this, and so everybody who's trying to back the CIA into a core or with all these letters and almost demands, and you must tell us, you know, was there really a roswell box or not? You know, the CIA sees this like, you know, like like you're a human and you've got like moths flying out. You just want to kind of brush them off because they have other things to spend their time doing.

The other thing that people are talking about, you guys were talking a minute ago, was what did the CIA tell him to take out of the book.

It seems to be almost bigger than it really should be. I believe that all that he's talking about here is that he may have included things in the book that were of specific policies or agency procedures that of course they wouldn't want any kind of hint to come out, because basically, he signed a secrecy old years ago that he wouldn't reveal things that were of a policy or

procedural matter. And so it sounds like to me he had some things in the book that were little too close to home, and they probably said to him take that out, you know, either deleted or write something else around it. But you're getting a little too close to how we operate here, and we don't think you're just guessing about that, though. I'm just guessing about that. No, it's just just basically what he said to me the other day was they're thinking of it in terms of it's like a nuisance to

them right now. There's nothing to it as far as they're concerned. It's almost like it made me think of you know, back when the Roswell incident occurred and the military had whatever it was it crashed, and wasn't it j ed Gohoover who was complaining that the military wasn't letting his agents get a hold of the disc Yeah, yeah, not sharing their information yet, right right,

Remember that j Edgar Hoover also lied. It is not now, nor has it ever been the policy of the UFOs too, I mean of the FBI to delve into UFOs and then Bruce mcabee gets fifteen hundred pages of FUFOS right, Yeah, the got caught the same way in the in the nineteen seventies. Yes, so yeah, to Grant's point earlier though, Lee, and this is a curious one. I know, Grant's very curious about it. Why is he only talking to you now and he's not talking to anybody

else. Look, I you know, are you on the payroll? Well, well, next week I get my neuralizers, so be careful. Yeah, I'm going to aim it at you the next time I see you. All I know from the timeline of all this. He did the first interview with Coast to Coast and I heard about it. I stumbled upon it. I listened to some of it, and I wondered, also, why isn't this a bigger story? And I couldn't find anybody who was willing to give me his contact information, so I thought, well, okay, I went

to his website. I found two different addresses email addresses for him on the website. I wrote him an email to both addresses and introduced myself and said, I Chase, Here's who i am, here's what some of the things that I've done. I would love to interview you any chance you're available in the next day or two, I hope to hear from you. And the next day he called me. I was surprised, and he said, I'd

love to talk to you, and that's how that happened. And then we ended up having an hour and a half conversation where we talked about a lot of things, most of which didn't get into my story. He was very fourth right, very very forthcoming. But he did say to me after my story was published that he didn't want to talk to anybody else at this point because of all the heat that had come on him, because people above him were complaining that there was a NUS inspector about you know, now, why

are they calling us the CIA? And he basically said, at this point, I don't want to talk to anybody unless it's about just my book. I don't want to talk about which is why he was sure, Well, that's what I was going to say. It's I think that's why he was the way he was on coast to coast. Yes, he tried to stick to the book, and whenever he was asked questions about the CIA the other stuff, he paused and he didn't want to answer the question. That's right.

And he even said at one point, are you going to ask me this question? Because I'm sure they had an agreement you said you weren't going to ask me this stuff but influenced Hollywood. That was the question. Yeah, that was right and right because he even said, are you going to ask me this question? And I know I'm sure it's because of what and I had known what Lee had said that he didn't want to talk to anybody anymore unless it was about his book, And all of a sudden, Noriri

is asking him questions that weren't just about his book. So he's like, oh, you like told so what what Chase is doing right now? Because people know kind of how to how to find him through his email address. He said that he's getting emails from people, especially requests for interviews, and he asked somebody who's filtering through the stuff and helping him decide if it's anybody he wants to talk to, so that that's that's all I know about that,

And you're the only one. So your answer is kind of because you're the most likable guy he talked to, I can buy that. Well, you're very persistent. Well, you know, I wanted to clear some things up with him. He was very happy that I followed through in certain things. And and then when when he told me he was going to be in New York and he suggested that we get together, well I couldn't pass that up. And so there we were together yesterday and it was it was a

great meeting, and I was very happy to get to know him. A little bit about him. Did you did he give you any secrets? Yes, but I'll have to kill you if I tell you. So. Okay, now I want to get into because we've only got about ten or so

minutes here about some of the other stuff Grant's been writing about. Has Grant's been writing that there is some history with CIA playing with UFO people, like you said earlier in particular, and of course this is something that Stanton's very familiar with because it was related to him and his cohorts Bill Moore, like

we talked about earlier. So and it's great to get Stanton's take on this, just to give the listeners some history who might not know much about this, even though I talked about this a lot on the show, because I

think this is a really interesting history. Period of time in UFO history was that in the late seventies, Richard Doty, who is an Air Force Office of Special Intelligence officer at Kirtland Air Force Base, started interfacing with a guy named Paul Benowitz, essentially giving him alleged UFO documents, some of which have been discovered to be false to supposedly, and Dodie has said this to because

Benowitz was seeing lights. He was essentially observing technologies on Kirkland Airport. They didn't want people to know about, including some of the Russian associates that Penwitz had, and so they tried to make them look foolish and believe it was all UFOs and extraterrestrial, so the Soviets would get off the track. The thing was is that according to Bill Moore in who came clean in nineteen eighty nine, that since nineteen eighty he had been working with Dody to get this

material out. William Moore being the person who wrote the first Big Rodslow book mostly based off of Stanton's work. Now Bill and I together, but Charles Burlocks is the one that took advantage of what right his name was magic with publishers, the corner office at Double Day and all that sort of stuff. So you want to get a book published, do it with Burlets and you'll get it published. So the question is, I guess this kind of hinges

around. Dody says and Moore says, they were working with a gentleman that they gave the code named Falcon. And the question is did this Falcon person exist? Was it Dody the whole time or not? And was this person working for the CIA. I believe Bill Moore and Dotey said he worked for a different agency other than the Air Force Intelligence. I know, at least in Great Bishop's book, he has a strong feeling that if this person exists,

his only concern was the Soviet Union and not UFOs at all. I'm wondering, what are your thoughts, Stanton on Falcon, if he existed, and who he might have worked for. Well, you know, Bill was keeping me informed when he first met with Dodi in the restaurant in Albuquerque when

he was publicizing the book Roswell Incident. I had I think maybe two conversations with Dody over the years, and my feeling was that they were probably a little not happy with Bill not running the way he should have with the information that he was being gifted with, you know them twelve documents and others. Because Bill and Jamie were I had moved back east in nineteen eighty, so

Bill and Jamie were in southern California. I am someone who got the two of them together in the first place, and they were trying to they were raising money from people. They were going to have a movie and a book and do all kinds of stuff and make me sort of a partner along the way a little bit. But they had saucerers in their eyes. I mean, they were looking to go big time. And I wasn't overjoyed about that.

And I found that Bill was a strange character and he did his own thing, and I was very upset with him when he talked about what he talked about in Las Vegas in eighty nine, and it was distressing to me. We're very different people in how we go about things. And as anybody granted you talked to Bill in the last five years, I haven't either more than that. And you know, I also got caught in the middle, you know, just to give you an example of this, people knew I

knew him. They were sending him money for books and they weren't getting the books. So they were complaining to me, right, and I complained to him. I said, you're violating the law of Bill. Oh there's no law, and maybe bad business, but so I checked at the post office, and you do mail order stuff. There aren't laws about complying with orders and money and you know, all this kind of stuff. But we thought

differently about these things. He thought he needed it more is what he said, than they did the money, and that's not the proper approach as far as I'm concerned. And so I think Bill had you know, it was the kind of guy who would leave home to go off on tracking down something. He wouldn't tell his wife where he was going, and they had the child who had allergies and she didn't drive, and the perilous thing to do, an irresponsible thing to do, and so you know, it was very

hard dealing with Bill after a certain point in time. So what drives him I don't know, But he's dropped out for a lot of years, and I haven't because I'm intrigued by the story, by the whole business, not the money angle. Although I've had people say you're only in it for the money. Stand I almost didn't call you. One guy says, because you're only in it for the money. Why do you say that? Well, I see on all these television shows, I don't get paid. What do

you mean you don't get paid? I don't get paid, even Larry King, that's right. And then he stepped back for a second. Well, you showed your book, yeah, in context on the program. Look at all the other people whose books they showed, and you know, they're collecting a lot of money from my being on their show. I'm not getting a dime for being on the show. They don't even pay it for meals.

That's your compensation. You get to actually advertise your book and hopefully you'll buy your book and you'll be able to make the twenty cents from the balance. Well, yeah, I mean, what I'm saying is there are a lot of people out there who think everybody comes running to us, who think that we're making lots of money from it. You know, I just did a

thing with George Norri in Toronto. I wasn't paid for that. They paid the expenses and they had twelve hundred people there who paid good money to attend and I sat signing water dress for hours. But you know, so there's a lot of misrepresentation out there, and what really frosts me is the attitude

of the nasty, noisy negativists, as I call him. There's Joe Nickel two times, ten years apart, saying that the roswel oh yeah, an anonymous PR guide put out an unauthorized press release to get attention, and I was on the air with them at the same time, and I pointed out that was ridiculous, and so forth, nine years later, he's still saying the same thing. I gave him Walkout's name. I pointed out, you know, all the facts didn't bother him at all. Don't bother me at

the facts. My mind's made up. That's the noisy negative iss. So here we have a great area. I would say with Chase, I don't believe it's one hundred percent true that everything he said is it gives us a true picture. On the other hand, I think it mostly is. And so what I'm hoping is that other people will come forward and say, what the hell, I'm retired, I'm old. Now maybe we should all tell the truth about this. I don't know, Grant, you think that's going

to happen. Probably not. Well, I didn't think this Chase would happen either. Yeah, So, and Grant, you kind of feel that this balcon guy, your belief is that he was working for CIA, and that that incident kind of mirrors this one. And there was incidents before even more important like this. You know, the whole deal with Bill with the CIA, and he was representing CIA people, and you have all these high ranking names that supposedly were above Falcon. But you have two stories before that.

You have the story about Walt Disney. It's almost exactly the same as the Chase Brandon's story, and that one we don't have as much evidence. But the one the story was with Walt Disney that he was told to do a documentary. He was offered all this film, so they put it out, he starts doing the film, and then at the last minute, when he's ready to do put the film in, they pulled the film back and the war. Kimball told that story at amw fun conference. Yeah. And these

intelligence right or Air Force people who were telling him this. Yeah, And according to Kimball, these Air Force people really did genuine believe or at least told him they believe they had this UFO VIDI or film. Yeah. Well, look at the whole Emmenegger and Sandlers stuff that was That's me is the key story, and you follow is nineteen sixty nine. The US Air Force is in the same position as the as the CIA is right now. This is you know, we don't want this, it's takes away from our time.

We're not interested, and they're making this this statement. Oh no, we're and they're out of the business in nineteen sixty nine, and Stanton was around then. I was around just shortly after there, and Stanton can confirm that in nineteen sixty nine there was no such thing as MG twelve and sa CIA, all these rumored stories about them working. It was basically just the US Air Force. And when the US Air Force got out of it in nineteen sixty nine, it was game over. There was nothing about UFOs.

It was like, the government is not involved. And it's like in Canada that we don't know he was running the UFOs in Canada and yet they shut down the thing. They're not involved. It's like the CIA, it's a

nuisance to us. Why in nineteen seventy two do they go to Bob and Emmenager and Alan Sandler and offer them the documentary film from the Pullman Air Force Base, give them eight seconds to put in their documentary and actually give them a film that they forgot to take back that they still have possession of a top secret film that they have from nineteen seventy two that was given to them. Why would you start the fire? I mean, it is like the

CIA. You put the stuff out, you give them the Haloman film, and then at the last second you have pull it back, and then you go to the company position, this is this is nonsense. We're not interested in this, we've never been Go and refer to blue Book, and the CIA says no, you go refer to the nineteen ninety seven study that we did on UFOs and they go back to the company policy and say we're not interested. And they keep dropping this stuff. And I say, they've done

it almost every second year for the last fifty sixty years. It happens over and over again. Pull it, put it out, pull it back, go to the company position, and these stories are getting out, and that well, semmen Aker's story is the key story. Well, Emmenegger, I was living in the LA area and he was the only one in somebody there was an article he was going to be doing a movie. So I called him the only one in the book. How can you do one without me?

So I met with him and Sandler and one of they mentioned they were going to Soviet Union. I said, I've got a big report of Russian UFO stuff. Oh, give it to us, we'll get it translated. I'm saying, hey, we're not talking ten pages here. We're talking big, that's all right. So I gave it to them and they got me a big translation. It turned out using classified methods, apparently because they had computer translation developed and nobody knew about it. Just Sandler had intelligence connections.

That's how they did that. They talk me no questions, and let me give you another. When we were in Washington for that program UFO Cover Up Live, I mentioned that I had the CIA, said I could appeal one of the They turned me down on releasing some of that top secret CIA stuff, So you can appeal if you want to appeal, called this number and ask for let's say, Charles. So I'm telling this to Emmenegger while we're sitting around in Washington there. He corrected me, Chris, not Charles Hell.

Did he know who the right guy was? And the key point of this whole thing was Emmenigger. I know Emmenigger better than anybody in the UFO. I've talked to him hundreds of times, and he told me he said he was talking about the production when they were doing the actual production of UFO's Past President Future in seventy four to seventy five, whenever it was they had a CIA guy on the production set the entire time, and his name Jamie's. The guy's name is Dick Betsky. And I said, well, what

was he doing on? What was he doing there? And he said, I don't know, he just was there all the time. I don't know, maybe Alan brought him in. I didn't really know talk to him or but I know there was a CIA gaither the whole time. So here's the CIA now saying we're not interested, we have nothing to do with this, and over and over and over again that with the Falcon with Ammennager, they're there, they're watching there, they're manipulating they I just don't believe they're not

interested, right, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Well, and the interesting of course you've mentioned UFO cover Live, which came out in nineteen eighty eight. We were talking about Dody and Falcon there. Richard Dody played Falcon, and you know he was in the screen. If people haven't seen this, I actually have it up on YouTube, the full thing. I was able

to find it on YouTube and people have been watching it. But yeah, he's behind this screen and you just see this outline of Richard Dody's say, I'm Falcon. And we had an alien, and he liked to eat strawberry ice cream, the famous strawberry ice music. Well and so, and that's the curious thing is at least Richard Dody was involved with getting out all of

this information before, assumably both because of the Soviet question. Of course, Grant brings up other questions on his website as too, Was it more than that? Is it the actual UFO material they're messing with here? And you know, the question is was Dody working alone or a lot not? Was he working with the CIA? Even the MJ twelve documents, which I know, Stan, I've read your book. You believe at least the original documents

Jamie Shandera got out or the real deal. But according to Tim Good, who also got these documents separately, he said he was working with He told Richard Dolan he got them from people that were working not doty, but people working with Dodie, is what he told Richard Dolan. Well, you know, we should give about our websites. I'm just going to write down Grant's and I you know, put it out loud. P com is mine?

Yep, what if it presidential UFO dot com? Okay, so he's got a bunch of stories, lots of reading on all of this stuff on the front page of his website. Of course, you can find it true h Lee at huffingtonPost dot com and look for Lee Spiegel or go to Where's News. Well also they can just also step to go to Lespiegel dot com. Oh that's right, and go to Stanton Friedman dot com. That's why Stanton

and I have the same web master dot com. Right, So we have a few a couple of minutes here are there we I think we've covered it a lot here. This has been wonderful, but let's get maybe. I'm sure everybody I was going to say, does anybody have any closing thoughts? I'm sure everybody does, And I think we've got time if you can spend a minute, and you did you want to start, Lee? Yeah,

I want. I want to say that you know if when when when Chase Brandon came out with his story, h and everybody started talking about Roswell this and Roswell had it made me think that that none of this would have caused any kind of controversy whatsoever if it hadn't been for Stan Friedman. Stan, it's all your fault. This everybody else is, you know, in the way, in the way that George Knapp put the phrase area fifty one on the lips of Americans. Stan Friedman did this same thing with Roswell, and

nobody can ever take that away from him. And I admire you for that stand. And all the people that have come after you, all the research, all their books, all the criticisms, they can't touch the fact that you were the first person who dug the information out and wanted to share it with the world. And I think that earns everybody's respect. Well, I

appreciate that very much. Let me mention one thing. The MUFON conference is coming up in Cincinnati August, the second, third, fourth, I guess it is the third, fourth, and fifth, and it'll be interesting to see what happens there. There's supposedly some big stories coming out blockbusters. Yeah, and I don't know what they are, but maybe Chase Brandon will work in this. And one little comment that really struck me as a coincidence.

The producer of my movie UFOs are real way back in seventy nine. But Brandon Chase, Oh really, yes, really that is of money. Weird. That was my first thought. I said, somebody playing games here. You know, what is it? Somebody playing games? That's a good segue to Grant Well. To me, I see the story as just an extension of stories I've done for years and years and years, this sort of gradual

disclosure that they want to stuff out. They have to control the cover up because they can't allow somebody to get an actual piece of material from that rosweld box and run with it, because then the New York Times Washington Post suddenly realized they've been had, and suddenly they see themselves as being dragged through the streets like Gaddafi by you know, a mob. They just don't want that, but they want to stuff out. And I that's my inside belief substantiated.

I think by GOT twenty thirty cases, the substantial that there are people up there who want this out. They but they want they want parts of it out. They wanted to get out the idea that MJ twelve existed, the fact that Roswell is for real, all this kind of stuff, and a lot of this is just playing games and fiction. And I really think this will just sort of fade away like all the other stories, like the Corso story, and everybody will will go on to the next story. I

just hope that people keep, especially leave because he's in contact. Keep Brandon talking because I think he's talking. He because he works for the CIA. It means more to me than just some guy who happened to wants work for an agency. I log everything that he says. I transcribe everything he says because I find very important things in what he's saying. So I hopefully keeps them talking. Hope he keeps saying stuff because I think we're learning from this

guy. You know, I think basically, I think he's telling the truth. It's just just got all this kind of fiction stuff that you got to weed through to get to get to what's actually going on. Well, yesterday

he told me that because I suggested it. I said, look, as this all develops, if you feel like you want to now make some statements of your own just to kind of respond to what's what's coming down here by everybody in the UFO community, I said, give me a call, let's talk about it, and we'll do another story, but it will be your statement of how you want to respond to all the stuff that's happening right now. So that's that's where we left it, can I ask a Leah question.

Yes, I watched your fan website as this thing was going, and I watched how many comments and how many Facebook shares there was, And I would just like to know how many people you figure read this article. It must have been unreal so far up to about one and a half million page hints. Unbelievable and and you know it's something like what four thousand comments now?

And I have to tell you, I am I am so sick of these armchair critics who just sit there and nobody does any real legwork out there, and they think that it's okay for them to just comment on one thing or another when they have no idea what they're talking about. H And I basically would like to say to all of them, I want to shake them all up and say, listens, if you haven't done any personal legwork, if you haven't gone up there, lifted the phone and done even one interview

with anybody, then your opinion is not valid. It's not based on anything real, and and you should pretty much, you know, shut up or put up. You want to be part of this conversation, then then do something about it. Don't just leave it up to all of us who are trying to do something. Everybody's got to work on this, that's my opinion, right on, right, all right, Thank you guys so much for

being on the show and spending time with us, for having us. Thank you, al Andro, I guys, all right, that was a lot of fun. Thank you very much to my guest Lisepiego grand Ca and the Venerable Stanton Redman. So what a wonderful chance to be able to talk to all of those guys about a very intriguing and important development in the field of

euphology. I gotta tell you. Grant did send me an update that Chase Brandon did do some BBC interviews that he was able to get and Chase did say there was nothing UFO related removed from his books by the CIA, So we did confirm that question that we had out standing from the show. But still Grant has some very compelling arguments I think there. So what's really going on? I don't know, Will we ever know? I don't know, I hope, so we'll keep working on it though. I know all of

my guests and myself you to work on it. And thank you all again for joining us on UFO Think Tank. Radio. Remember because I love you. You can get twenty twenty five percent off of the Cosmic Exploration Conference. Just use the code U T T uppercase U T T when you register. You can find that at ufodailynews dot com. There's a link at the top for the conference or cosmic ex dot com to find the conference. All of this information you'll find at UFO Daily News. Thank you all so much for

joining me once again, and I'll be talking to you next week. Adio Smootato