Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am Alejandro Rojas and I am joined by mister Reptilian McClellan. Yes. I was going to say, don't let out my secret, but that's not a secret anymore. Yeah, you've been exposed quite a while ago. Oh yeah, as a reptilian you are yep, yep, no denying it anymore, buddy, No, it's not worth it. Did you get in trouble with a reptilian hierarchy when you were outed? No? See, that's a misconception that reptilians try to
stay hidden, and they don't. They don't care. We're out and we're proud. Yeah. Well, you know when you were outed, so was Maureen, so was Antonio, so was my girlfriend. And everybody is actually real happy about it. Yeah, it seems to be. I mean, why wouldn't you want you, buddy up? Yeah, no, Antonios, you're afraid of You got to keep your enemies close. Antonio did get a little disturbed though, Actually he got a little upset by it. He took offense a bit, didn't he. Yeah, he did, and that made
him wonder if he actually is a reptilian. Yeah. His response is a little strange. Yeah, let's see hide end so and people would like to know those who are interested. I haven't talked to Antonio lately. I have and I went to go see him and he's kind of some people have been asking where is he and he's kind of gotten out of ethology for the moment. He's on hiatus and he's just kind of relaxing, chilaxing, and he
is doing well. But just like our speaker, our guest today he has letting his hair facial end, head hair grow out, so he looks like a bit of a mountain man. Although our guest today is more of a rebel hippie. His new kind of persona for rebel Richard Dolan that starts who
we had on today, the reinvented rebel hippie Dolan. Yeah, although our talk is kind of fun because I wanted to touch on some subjects that are kind of hot right now, like, for instance, he's been getting some heck over this breakaway civilization stuff and so there is so we talked about that, but that was kind of fun and uh, then we also talked about
the people over at UFO updates. I don't like it because we talked about UFO updates and then we did get into some debate though with Rebel Rich about mof on. So but just so the listeners know, even though we get in some heated debate, it all comes out well and we're buddies and we had we had a good time this weekend because we were at the Travis Walton Skyfire summit, so that was kind of fun. So Jason, you kind of held down the fort for us, yep, and I'm glad you made
it back. Yeah, luckily we did. Although in this experience, I have to say, because you know how, we are very honest. I was gonna say brutally honest, but we've tried to soften the blow with our honesty here at the Open minds were Yeah, not brutal, We're kindly honest. But I have to say alien abductees should not organize conferences. Why that because at least with this example, to say organized would be not an accurate term. When it comes to this conference. It was very unorganized. Stuff
was everywhere, The schedule wasn't right, things weren't on time. Travis was late to everything three hours in one case. But it was fun. It was just you know, on mountain time. It was like, you know, show up to the conference at nine am. What's gonna happen in the next twelve hours is totally up in the air. But you're gonna enjoy it and have a good time. So just relax and for the city folks, your put your watches away, put your day planner away, and just go
with the flow. And most people did go with flow and had a really good time. So and of course there were some great speakers there. Well, that's good to hear. I mean, it is somewhat usual for conferences, especially this type of conference, to not go very smoothly, to not be organized, and to not stay on schedule. Yeah, but if that was the case with this one and people still had a good time, that's
really good to hear. Yeah, And I got to say, you know, so people know we offered our help, and I think they're going to take more of our help next year. But because we love these guys, we really want them to be successful and hopefully they'll be more on time and stuff. But either way, it was people had a lot of fun and it was great and of course a lot of great speakers. You could go
to my Facebook to see more. But We're also going to have a video out of this night watch where we got to do a SkyWatch, you know, at the location of the signing. So that was really cool to see. And I put a little video up on my Facebook of Maureen kind of at the site, kind of walking us through what happened, and you can see Michael or are you know guy who our producer. I should say I called him a video guy, but he's more than that. He organizes our
videos. So that's kind of fun. So you guys could see the site and we'll have another more formal video out with some really cool interviews with Travis at the courthouse in Holbrook where everything went down, but we'll have that up soon. So it was a lot of fun. It was really cool. So one thing you can't blame Travis of is not providing a great show. He is a showman. That's great. I'm glad to hear it. You're kind of quiet about the whole thing, are you afraid of I'm not afraid.
I'm just kind of bummed that I missed the experience, you know. Oh yeah, unique kind of setting an experience and that the people there and yeah, it's like it had all the right elements, and I was really looking forward to that when I heard about it, so it was bummed that I didn't didn't get to make it happen. But yeah, glad you guys went, and I'm glad it went off with its hitches, it still managed
to take place and people enjoyed it. Well. You know, they knew they would have some challenges this year, but the reason they wanted to do it is because this is the thirty ninth anniversary and they wanted to kind of work out some kinks for the big one, which is a fortieth anniversary. So they will have it again next year for the fortieth. And I would say to you, Jason, and to all of our listening audience who did not make it, is to you've got a year to plan ahead. It's
going to happen. I'm certain it will happen, and so get ready for it and hopefully you can make it out. That sounds good, and I think it's very smart of them to plan it this way, do a year in advanced workout kinks, kind of work up to that big forty. Yeah, exactly, So that's going to be a lot of fun. So that'll be the big one and if this makes you feel any better, Jason,
I'll let the cat out of the bag. We did not see UFOs or extraterrestrials in our night SkyWatch, so you didn't miss anything in that respect. Well, now I don't need to watch the video that we'll put up later. Yeah, you do, because there's good interviews that you haven't seen before about okay, even details about the case and what happened at the courthouse that I have not heard before. So there, okay, geez, you little
son of a gun. Well, let's get into UFO news. We didn't have a whole lot of UFO news on the website because we were mostly out of town. But as I said, you were holding up the fort and so you know what came across the news desk that you were excited about. Well, allehandro. It's been kind of slow for ufone news lately. That's not to say there hasn't been UFO news reported by the media around the world, but I found a lot of it kind of lacking in its substance and
it's credibility. Yeah, there's been a lot of just reports about videos and you know, unfortunately most of the times they're thrown up the only source being Scott Wearing from the Settings Daily. Kind of ludicrous videos in my opinion, with no additional information, no source as to where the video came from. So a lot of disappointing news in my opinion in that respect. But one story Alejandro that I am following and really excited about just to see what comes
of it. This is something we've been following for a while, and that's mister Tom DeLong. Many people know him from his band blank Wwentity two and we've interviewed him on Spacing Out before. He's a veteran UFO research. He's actively researched UFOs for more than twenty years, along a period time than most of the leading researchers in the field today. He's well read and has some
pretty strong opinions on this stuff and continues in his research. I think it was twenty eleven he launched a website called Strange Times, and that was a news website. It would post headlines about UFO's and extraterrestrials as well as other things that mainstream media wouldn't cover, and they would cover a lot of the
stories that open Minds would write. And that website shut down. It went on a hiatus and it's still on a hiatus, and we asked him about that when we interviewed him, and he said it was in a holding pattern. He had some ideas and some other video elements and things that he didn't vision for taking Strange Times to a different place now. Currently, and over the past several months, he's been posting photos on his various social media accounts
hinting at things that are in the works for Strange Times. One of those hints came last week when he posted photos in a video of a trip he recently took to the area around Area fifty one. Posted a photo showing the showing one of the gates of Very fifty one the back gate of Avery fifty one in the background. He posted a video of himself up on top of a summit where he has a good view around the area of Aver fifty one.
He also recently, just in the past couple of days, posted a photo of some documents that looked like there a lot of documents that many UFO research would be familiar with, like the Forestall Memo and things like that that had certain things highlighted, and again he says these are for upcoming Strange Times something we don't know what Strange Times is going to be, and he's also
hinted it at a UFO video. He's been working on a film, So I think all these things are projects are going to be revealed soon whenever Strange Times relaunches, and we don't know at all what that's going to entail, so I'm curious. I think it's exciting though, because you know a lot of people go, oh, what do we care rock and roll guy and UFOs, But Tom Delonge's really smart. I mean, I've been really impressed with all of his interviews about UFOs that I've seen in the past, including
the one he did with you and Maureen. Absolutely, I mean I was blown away when I first heard him talk about UFOs because he's known as a lighthearted person. You know, if you know anything about his music about Blank twenty eighty two, they're very much about embracing youthfulness and just you know, not caring at all about what anyone says, and just being goofy and having fun. Their lyrics are very juvenile, and you know, I love Linquenty's
twenty two, but you know, they're very silly songs. Most of the time. But you know, I think you also have a song called Aliens Exist. And he's never been shy about his belief in UFOs and extraterrestrials. And like I said, he's well read. You know, when they go on tour and stuff, you spend a lot of time actually reading books and doing his own research and meeting with people who are researchers. He's very good
friends with George Nap and stays in constant contact with George Napp. So he is very much and I time and time again refer to him as this. He is a UFO researcher. He's not just some enthusiast to crazy Rocks star who thinks UFOs are fun and neat and haha. Now he is an actual EFO researcher. He takes it very seriously and he is extremely well read. So yeah, he can't speak intelligently about it. So I am excited to see what he does with this new project. Yeah. Cool. Yeah,
I was excited when I saw your story about this because I agree. I think it's exciting cool stuff. Yep. So is there any story you want to talk about from last week? There is, and can you guess which one it? Is slim Pickens, Like you said, so slim Pickens. Let's see, I think you're going to talk about now, I have no idea that's night vision. So maybe the triangle UFO over Michigan exactly. I love the night vision stuff, and I think this is a really interesting video.
And I'm sure you've looked at it quite a bit, so you'll have your own opinions. But yeah, this is a night vision video. Now, there's a couple night vision videos, and essentially this guy says he saw it was about eight pm on November two, and he saw this triangular thing through the night vision. His friends couldn't see it well without the night vision.
He then reviewed it and he saw there was not only these three lights in a triangular shape, but there were other UFOs and strangeness in the videos. Now, I don't feel I don't see any of the other stuff you're seeing. I think that other stuff can be explained away pretty easily. However,
I think the triangle's pretty interesting. I mean, it's three dots that stay in a pretty solid triangular formation, move very quickly through the sky, and they do something that I think is probably very ill advised where they start shooting a laser at it, which even the witness thinks it could have been a stealth bomber or some sort of stealth technology. Well, if that's the case, what you're doing by shooting a laser at it is actually illegal and
you can go to jail for it. So that's why I think that that's probably a bad idea. But I think it's an interesting video. What do you think it is an interesting video with you. I think the other things mentioned can easily be explained. But the triangle object itself, We've seen this so many times in my vision videos. They're so fascinating. They definitely we've seen it so many times. I've seen it personally with my own eyes.
There's some sort of weird triangle thing that moves up there that you see with night vision. Who knows what it is. Is it extraterrestrial? Possibly, I don't know, But the thing is, I certainly not faked. This stuff is actually up there. It's very fascinating to see some of the best UFO videos in my opinion, that you can see pretty readily if you take the time to look for it. But yeah, the laser pointing is so
stupid in my mind, even if it is extraterrestrials. I don't think extraterrestrials would appreciate having a laser shot on the rise from their flying I mean, it's very dangerous for flying vehicles now, this green lasers shot in their eyes. Yeah. Yeah, So I when I saw that, I was like, uh, oh, well, and I don't know if this witness realizes that this is illegal. But I should also mention that this is a Moufine
case. So this was written by Roger marsh and as is the case with the Moufine cases, they do not reveal, you know, the witnesses. They keep them mononymous until they get permission to do otherwise, and there is an investigation ongoing. However, I'm not gonna wait, so I'll probably get some opinions on what people think about this video and will definitely share that with our audience. But yeah, I think it's a really cool video. People
need to check it out, definitely. So that's at Openminds dot Tv with other stories and with our spacing out from this last week. So it's getting a lot of attention because I think we talked about this last week, but this guy from Sri Lanka, I think I kept saying Ndia's from Sri Lanka. This politician who says some space agency tried to steal their meteorite that might have some evidence for extraterrestrial life. However, it didn't get stolen, and
scientists have written up information about this meteorite. And I guess in particular, he said it was creationists who did it. Dunt, dunt dun. There was no good creationists. We'll get him scring him up. That's what we say out here in the Southwest, which is another fun thing. This was total cowboy Travis Walton Skyfire Summit. I mean it was near the area and there were horses and this was in a barn right next to it where horses and mules. And if you see on my Facebook, Oh this is cool,
you'll love this because you're an animal lover. They had a dog on the grounds called Scout, and he's got this big GPS transponder around his neck. Because this guy just will take off. He's the cutest little fella, really like serious, little guy, really cool. But this is so they can find him because he takes off, but also that it can beep, and when it beeps, he knows he has to come home, so he'll come home wherever he is. That's very smart of him. Yeah, cool,
they should keep him inside so he doesn't run away. Yeah, well, the owner loves to have him by his side, so he walks around everywhere the owner goes. It's pretty cute, pretty cool guy. But without further ado, we should probably talk to Rebel Richard Dolan. Rebel rich I am very happy to be joined here by Richard Dolan. So welcome, hi elandre Thank you. So it's fun to be out here in Hebrew, so
close to the Travis Walton site. How's your weekend been so far? It's been busy every conference that it was like this, and it's been enjoyable. You know, this is the first conference that Travis is put together, and I think, you know, I think everyone's trying to feel their way around, make sure good experience. That's a nice way. That is a nice way to put it. But it's actually I've enjoyed it. And the best thing about any of these conferences for me is I learned from everyone who tends.
Yeah, that's honestly the case. Yeah, And it's kind of funny because even if there are some organizational problems, at least for the speakers or for people like us who are here to do interviews or talk to people, it's still an enjoyable experience because you still get to hang out with your colleagues
and everything. For sure. Absolutely. So one of the things I wanted to talk about was Travis's case because it's something that I think a lot of you know, real conservative and i'd like to know what you thought at the beginning researchers struggle with because it's so strange. It's such a weird occurrence that is kind of out of the norm, but yet it seems so credible and it's hard to discount what Travis went through. What was it like for you
when you first heard about his case? I got into, you know, like Travis's case is one of about several hundred miniature minefields that dot UFO research. There's Bob Lazaar, there's Gulf Breeze, There's Travis, There's dozens and
hundreds of others. I go into each one of these with my own sense of trepidation and fear to be honest with you before I make a decision, because you know that there's just so much contentiousness on all different sides of any particular issues, and you know that whatever you decide as a researcher, someone's not gonna be happy with what you think. That's a given. But going into Travis's case, the way that I researched it was very simple, not
even talking to Travis. I went through as many original sources as I could. I have a lot of old issues of the a pro bulletin which covered this as it was happening, and I have all of those, all the books, Travis's book, filled classes, book, you know, interviewing Travis, learning everything that I can about the case, what you find is that
this is I think, a very strong case. As outrageous as it might seem to some people, there are too many things lining up to support the fact that Travis Walton was abducted by what appears to be some kind of a group of entities on a craft, on a flying saucer. That's what it really does look like. This is not simply an important case in UFO history. It's an important case in American history. You know. Keeping in mind that this started out as a missing person case and a murder a potential murder
investigation. This isn't just an ordinary UFO event. This is something that got national attention right out of the gate because you had six loggers coming in reporting that this man was abducted by a UFO. They were polygraphed and fundamentally they all pass at Polly. The only one who failed was hiding a prior conviction. But to the questions, did you murder Travis Walton? No? Did
you see what looked like a flying saucer? Yes, you know all of those types of questions, they all passed and have that many visuals beat a polygraph that itself seems to be highly vanishing, too impossible. It seems to be the odds on that Travis himself took three polls I think that I'm aware
of. He supposedly flunked one, But when you actually look at the details of that one, which I have, I've read the transcripts, it was obvious that he went into an entirely hostile situation with someone who's absolutely unethically trying to trip him up. So I think actually Travis Travis came through with flying colors. Having known Travis now for I guess close to a decade, I've spent a lot of time with him. I took a trip across the state
of Pennsylvania in my car with him, just the two of us. We had a lot of time just to talk. I will say this, everyone who knows him feels that he's an honest person of integrity. I don't think I don't know anyone who knows him feels differently. But as I've come to know him, I found that he's very analytical and intelligent guy as well. And he's you know, he's almost notoriously quiet, notoriously laid back, humble, and he's been utterly consistent. There's just nothing about his case that seems
to be a miss. Here. There are debunkers like Philip J. Class who went out of his way in his career to smear many many other individuals, not just Travis Walton. So that's classes m O. And that's hard to take that seriously. Right, So what it looks like is a Travis Walton who was missing for five days. Police team searches, men on horseback, search dogs, the whole thing. No one found him. He turns up five days later, dehydrated, depleted in many ways nutritionally. Yeah,
I mean, what he remembers is that he was taken. And I have never had any reason to doubt this. Yeah, at least for me these days, I kind of played Devil's advocate in my mind always. I'm looking for kind of the naw hypothesis, right, and I'm looking at Travis's case. I'm saying, you know, this is weird, you know, looking at it. If I'm to say this isn't real? What is there out
there? They can even indicate that and being so close to it, knowing him, there is nothing there really isn't any No, I'm with you in the attitude. I mean, you want to go into a case with a skepticism, not a debunking religious type of skepticism, but a rational skepticism for sure, And we want to ask ourselves what are other reasonable possibilities here in this case? I guess the reasonable one would be an elaborate hoax. That's
really the only thing that I can realistically think of. But when you look at the hoax scenario for the Travis Walton case, it just it doesn't seem to stand up. So what it looks like is that Travis Walton was taken by individuals who appear some to be totally human looking, others not human looking, on a craft for what seems to be five days, and during most
of that time he seemed to have been completely unconscious. What it looks like is that he got zapped, maybe accidentally, and they had a moment where they thought, well, let's fix him. Yeah, that's actually what it looks like to me. Yeah, me too. I've said that since the beginning, and now Travis has kind of adopted that idea as well. So
the other thing that gets me with is is Travis is so open. I mean, not only does he share his thoughts his life, but you know, like he's got his grandkids here, his family, he takes your kids. It's this amazing openness as well. Whereas I think it's not just looking at his credibility, then you have insight into his kid's credibility, his family's credibility, where you would see some cracks somewhere, And as much time as I've spent around that, I've never seen any cracks. That's a very good
point. I agree with that. I just met some of his family yesterday. They're very loving people. Yeah, they're great people. So it's funny because you mentioned Bob Lazare, which is another one of these cases, and I don't know what it is like if you check your Google analytics and stuff and see, you know what people are searching when they find your site, but for us, they're searching you. UFOs, Travis Walton, Bob Lazar. Those are the top, always in the top ten, if not the
top vibe interesting. So they're big cases. Yeah, and Lazar's probably was maybe the biggest, uh you know, landmine case that I had when I was doing my second volume of UFOs and a national Secuits. It probably feared Bob Lazarre the most of anything. I'm actually very much looking forward to the fact to getting a chance to meet him at the next Open Minds conference. Yeah, so you will be there as well. Oh absolutely, that's great. What are your thoughts about his case right now? Or do you feel
this is my take on Bob Lazar. I think he strikes me as a kind of person who just doesn't give a shit about what other people think about him. I hope I can say that I just didn't really did I just did. I think he cares. You wouldn't be the first, and don't worry. He strikes me as having been truthful with what he has said, And you know, does that mean what he says is true. This is the question the things that bab Blazar went through in his so called briefing or
highly unorthodox. You know, he's taken to a place south of Aarya fifty one as four and he's given these books to read. This from everything that I've been able to look into subsequently, this is not seem to be normal at all. When you're in a highly compartment and situation, you're given very specific, limited types of data only so that what you're supposed to know is
is what you know. And Lazar's case, they basically toss all of this information out to him about the nature of these other beings, so how long you've been here and all of this information which seems somehow wrong, and then his whole, his whole statement that you know, this craft is run on element one fifteen and that that is used to create a kind of bending of
space time, to warp space. The fact is some of the physical concepts that he talks about I think have been borne out by mathematical equations by I say, like Miguel Alcabierre just a few years later at the University of Wales, who came up with his own mathematical model of warp drive. It's quite fascinating really. But the whole idea of why element one fifteen I think is a dead end because I don't really think that's what is the solution here.
I think it's more of lack a zero point energy type of a situation, more along the lines of another leak that took place a year earlier, which is the so called alien reproduction vehicle, And I am much more inclined to place some credence in that story for a number of reasons. So that's true. If you've got craft that are running on zero point, that are traversing the Solar system, Let's just say, and you want to keep that secret.
Let's say we're on the team and we're building zero point craft, but there are competitors out there who may get wind of the secret. What might we do. One thing we might do is take someone who've psychologically profiled, who knows we know, won't care, and we'll be able to keep a secret which he didn't do. Give him wrong information. I mean Element one fifteen jokingly has been referred to as unobtaining because it's so impossible to get so
that our competitors might think, oh, element fifteen. How are you going to do that? Let's just give up our project. That's a thought. I don't know if this is true, but it's a thought. In other words, that Lazarre could have been used in a way as a sophisticated way of disinforming possibly, you know what. I've looked into this a long time, and I wouldn't pretend that I know this better than anyone else has looked at it. But I don't dismiss him out of hand the way people like
Stanton Friedman do, and I like him, respect Stanton's work. But George Napp has also investigated Bob Lazar. George Knapp has demonstrated that Lazzar did work at Los Alamos National Apps in the ear Ladies when Lazarre said he did. Lazzar did certainly appear to have met with Edward Teller on that one occasion at Los Alamos. I mean it all. Everything seems to fit. When my book was coming out, where I was writing about Lazar, I was at
the Crash Retrieval conference. It was the first place where I spoke about it. I was in late two thousand and eight. John Alexander was in my face that whole weekend, and the main thing Alexander wanted to know was what was my attitude on Lazar. It was the number one thing he wanted to know. The man would not leave me alone. Yeah, he used all of his NLP techniques and all of his other mind control try to get it
out of me. And I said, I don't really care. I'll tell you I think Lazar is probably fundamentally truthful with that caveat that I just gave you. Alexander said, well, he's just full of it. Five minutes after Alexander left me, I was approached by Ron Roguerer, who is Ron at this conference. No, I haven't seen so well. Ron was here yesterday briefly, was he really? Because he and Ron is a very highly technical guy. Worked at Arrogant in aerospace industry for many years, and I've
known and respect Ron greatly. Ron Reguard comes up to me says, oh, you're writing about Lazarre. I said yes. He said, Bob Lazar is an absolutely number one stand up guy. I've known him for years. I knew him long before the world knew about him, and I am telling you that guy is legit. So there you have it. You've got these two people who they claim are the expert. Again, my take on Lazarre
is that I don't think he came in to make it up. I think he's been entirely, completely consistent with every single facet of his story, and I think he's calling it the way he believes it. Yeah, that's it's interesting because I think the way you had these two credible people coming at you is a good way to frame the blizarre situation because it is so baffling.
And you know, it's funny because I was starting to get to a low point where I was really skeptical, and then I went to the Fund symposium last year and George Knapp spoke about the race and it was very compelling. Right, yeah, so I mean the other thing, George, No, I haven't been invited since twenty eleven when I bitched at mufund's leadership. Oh yeah, to reform, and I got Clifford Cliff about to have a burst of blood vessel. I woo, Yeah, it's all true. He got
really mad at me that he got it. Oh, I know, he got furious, said people got upset. I'll be most people supported me by far, really, and if they don't, they can kiss my ASTs. Okay, how about we say that, which is fine. However, fund needed okay, significant reforms, which by the way, they are starting to
undertake, and Jan Harzan is running movie. But don't you think it would have been more productive to speak to them in person if you would have said, hey, guys, I want to come to your board meeting and I want to talk to you about some of these problems. They were to let you come in and talk to them. Listen, you know what I spoke for fifteen minutes at the end of my lecture. You can find what I said on YouTube. It's the most tame I was a statement there was on
YouTube. It was tame in the context of that conference. Maybe not quite as tame, but it was polite. And all I said is that MUFON's leadership is very opaque, which is true. A Moufon's board is not responsive to its members, which was true. Maybe they're trying to change it now. Moufon was an organization that sucked in all the information gave nothing back out, which was also true. So what do you want? You know, Moufon has been around for forty years. At the time their membership was hovering.
It around two three thousand at the time. You know what, No, there's absolutely room for improvement. So I don't take that back at all. And they haven't invited me though, to any of the symposia sens. Yeah, and it's funny. I just think that I just felt at the time, especially and that I think that people need to understand why these things happen. I mean, and I don't know how you felt at the time, but there's no grand conspiracy behind the scenes. And thank you for resolving
that, Alejandro, I mean, I appreciate that. Do you feel that they're listen, Moffon has been an organization, so I had naval intelligence from the get go, They've had military people at the top from the get go. You can call what you want, well, they still do, whether it's a conspiracy or an agenda. Either way, there's been a very very specific thing about Moufon that has been made it a very kind of public, unfriendly organization and has genuinely brought in a lot of suspicion. This is not
an outrageous and unfair thing for people to have suspicion about Moffon. Well, often suspicions are based off of ignorance of knowing what's really going on behind the scenes. And I could say that because I was their public director for Alarm, I to say that this time in fact, just prior to this period,
and I was never told not to talk about anything. I mean, there was people a little uncomfortable when it came to the Stephenville situation and how much that I interacted with the press, but it was mainly because they didn't want to circus type of atmosphere in mind eleven. When I made my statement in twenty eleven, that was right on the heels of several explosive interviews about Muffin that was going on at the time. Jerry Pippen was doing those.
Chase Kletzky was a very close friend of mine. Now I know Chase very well, I didn't know her at the time. James Clarkson, and of course Elaine Douglas. Let's not forget Elaine. Oh yeah, she was a leader in peace the revolution and Elaine, you know, it was always a difficult person to deal with. I've known her, I knew her for years. But Elaine is a smart lady and dedicated and she believed in what she had to say about about Moufon, and I respected it, but in terms
of what Chase Kletzky had to say. Chase was the star team manager for Mufon for a while, and what Chase said to Jerry Pippen, and she has said to me a number of times, is that none of those investigations were not compromised by upper level Moufon, and she was quite explicit about it. So it was in the context of these You can say you want about Chase, but I'm telling you it was in that context that I made my statement about Moufon. You know, either reform and get with the program and
get with the people, or you'll find yourself left in the dust. And that was not an outrageous thing for me to say. Yeah, and I guess, but it's in there, totally in their rights not to invite me back. And I knew that full well when I made my statement. Yeah,
and I think that the issue I think you're right in. Certainly there are communication issues, obviously because people were inside a movement and having issues, But that word compromised when it comes to compromise in cases being compromised, a lot of people were taking this idea of this compromise to be some sort of hiding of information to chase about it. Sometimes. All of those cases I
was working directly with the Star team. Every single one of their best cases that they worked with Bigelow were with were not only in the move On Journal, we posted them in our magazines and on our website, which caused some people to get frustrated white as Open Minds have them. Luckily, I had some insight, you know, information since I just came from move On,
but it was all shared. Now when it comes down to having the man power to get that stuff out the end, you know, that's where we've come in as Open Mind, is to work that pr side because certainly their heads are usually an investigation in the case and they haven't been doing the best in the past in their interactions with the public. But it's funny we went off on this tanship but it's kind of cool. No, No, I'm glad we did. Yeah, and you know I gleaned your position on move
On. I respect it. There are many, many excellent people in Moufon and those poor people. I mean, you've got to admit it's great to have the help of people who are ex military. Yeah, as long as they don't have an agenda that directs the organization one way or another a little. You know, you have people like Thomas Dooley, who's basically run it from on high in the shadows for many, many years. I've heard this from a number of high level move On people. Well, I've worked with
him directly. He's now in any shadow. I worked directly and spoke with him constantly, and I still see him quite a bit. And certainly, these people, a lot of them are very conservative when it comes to this field, and they are very protective over the credibility of move On, and that offers some difficulty, especially as time goes on and people have different ideas about the phenomena. But he certainly was not someone who was pulling any strings.
Most of the people who were pulling the biggest strings are the directors who often are very accessible, such as Clifford. Cliff, you gotta admit he was maybe not to you after your I don't know. I never heard anything wrong with it. I had no problem personally with cliff Yeah, he's a great guy. Yeah, so that's kind of funny. How did we get off on this hand? Well, we were doing Lazare Oh yeah, I fin right, and then somehow we got all moof on on each other.
Yeah, George nap right, yeah, oh so right, I have to move on symposium, you know, okay, off we went to the race. But yeah, and that has one thing that he's impressed upon people for years is that Lazarre was merely the first of about twenty five or so other witnesses that George Knapp cultivated over the years twenty five or so who and as George has put a number of times, strongly corroborated various parts of what Lazarre
had originally said. The problem that he's had with all of these witnesses that at the eleventh hour in many cases, they just declined to go public. But look, I have no problem believing in Georgie NAT's credibility on this. He's interviewed these people, He's talked about their cases fairly explicitly and public just without names, so that if Lazarre was lying and did he really look out and you know, really get lucky with a lot of these details that many
of these other people have been coming forward with. Yeah, well, luckily you're not banned from the UFO Congress and you will be speaking, pray and I'm enjoying the UFO Congress. You to be there, got to make George Knapps talk because he's going to do the same talk at that that he did at the symposium, but a little more. And then we're going to move into the QA with Lazard. So you got to be there and let us know if you have questions for Lazar, we'll make sure we get him to
George Knapp's hand there. I intend to put myself in front of Lazard at some point or another. One ye try well that I don't know. He had might not be as willing with communicating with people, but I think that
he's gonna find because this is interesting. Travis Walton when he first came out again because he was he kind of went away from this field for a long time, right, And when he came to the UFO Congress before we had it it was like two thousand and six, I think he was really scared because he said he wasn't he hadn't been treated very nice by the ufommunity he felt in the past because there were a lot of skeptics in class, was
around and stuff like that, So he was really nervous. But he was welcomed back with open arms, and I really feel that Lazarre will probably be treated the same way, and hopefully he'll feel yeah, right welcome and he'll be more open to speak with everyone. He was at the center of such a firestorm back in those days. There's so much controversy, not hard to
see why he would be kind of turned off by it. Yeah. So it's kind of funny because we were talking about before this, you know, UFO updates in some of these forums that have a lot of real conservative people in there who just it's kind of funny because I get a feeling you might feel the same way about this forum because I'm in there occasionally. I used to be in there more, but I found a lot of the finding counterproductive.
But when I'm in there, it's kind of like I feel like, Okay, thanks for sharing information, Alejandro, but we're keeping an eye on you. You know, if you miss step, we're going to get all over you. Yeah, exactly. It's a kind of a culture that I go to forms like that or above top Secret, in a lot of these other places i'm there, I lurk. Yeah, I have no interest in getting involved because if I were to do that, the amount of time suck.
It would be would be outrageous, and I know exactly what would happen. I would have people in there who would want to defend me, others who would want to attack various things that I've done. And then then what do I do. I have to decide do I spend the time and actually defend myself. I see criticisms much of myself all the time. Yeah, I just let it go. I don't care anymore. Yeah, I truly just don't care. But for me to get involved in these things, it's
just counterproductive for me. Yeah. It's funny because least Biegel and I talk about this a lot, and he was on last weekend again it came up because he gets so, you know, heated about some of these conversations that come up in these forums and stuff. And I've always told them in the past, ignore it. It's a waste of times. Do your research. Don't get worried about personalities. There are some people in this field it's like
it is their obsession to decide. They're the judge and jury who's good who's not good, And they spend all of your time looking at specific researchers. Want to just do your own goddamn research and produce something that's valuable for the rest of us. There's a thought aim into that. However, I sometimes I get brave, quote unquote, and I'll go into these forums and post some stuff or get in the conversation because I'll be like, well, they
can check me, because I don't mind my work being checked. I love it. You know what am I missing? Am I screwing something out? Let me know? Absolutely? And then I get drawn into these things too much, and then I'm leaving and that I'm upset, and I'm like, why am I even in this field. I don't mind being criticized at all. I mean, if someone has the big criticisms that I that I've seen. I got a lot of hell for the YouTube video that I did of
the man who's allegedly ci Ain dying. Oh yeah, that's the biggest one probably, and I'm happy to talk with you about that if you're interested, okay. And then I get I get criticism over the idea of a breakaway
civilization. I get criticized over supposedly what people think that I believe about disclosure, which is almost always wrong because it's obviously read anything that I've written It was funny because you talked about that at your talk and then later on in a positive way a researcher referenced your work and what you had said was that right? But he also didn't get it right. I don't think completely thinking
he still misconstrued strued, you're it's not that idea. I mean what I say, it's it's I mean, I guess you have to be a grown up to get it, but a lot of people just don't really. I mean, what I'll say on disclosure is this disclosure is never going to be some voluntary thing that the government does. It's never going to be this thing that gives us Shangri law and you know paradise. You know, people like Stephen grierm might say that, people like Stephen Bassett might imply it that has
never ever been anything that I've ever believed in implied. I believe that fundamentally, I believe in truth. Fundamentally, I believe that a society should be based on truth, not lies. That's just my you'd want to call it my article of faith, go have at it, and I believe that it's Therefore I do even openness on this subject of UFOs and I believe in that sense in what we can call a disclosure, because I do think that there's a kind of a cover up. Does that mean I think the government knows
everything? Now? Does that mean, as Robbie Graham implied once, that I think the government's my big daddy and is gonna, you know, take my hand and show me. No? Of course not what am I ten years old? Let's look at this as adults, all right? What I think is that there's a lot of truth that is being withheld in deep black communities, probably maybe forever inaccessible. But here's the thing, all right, We're not living in a static universe. Here. We're living in an era
of great dramatic change. We've had twenty years of Internet that has utterly turned our world inside out more times than any of us can remember. Do we honestly think that twenty years from now, twenty thirty four, it is gonna look like twenty fourteen? Who's that stupid? They're gonna think that the world is gonna be fundamentally different. We've had Weekileaks for just a decade or less. What are we gonna have in another twenty years? Different in a way
that we can't even conceive it precisely. So to just assume whom that tomorrow is going to look like yesterday, this is just foolishness. So I don't know how it's gonna go down. But for me to assume that just because the government's never going to have a motivation to disclose to think it will never therefore happen, Well, things happen that we cannot predict, and people can
be forced into making decisions that they don't want to make. So when when there's a moment, if a government is ever forced to make an admission, doesn't mean they're gonna be truthful, Yeah, of course not, but it means fundamentally that this subject will be on the table for open discussion. And that's significant. I was gonna say one other thing here, and now I've lost my train of thought. But you know, it's and it's Oh. Some people say, well, who even cares what the government thinks? Why
are you depending on the government? Well, I care because I don't believe in living in a fascist society. I don't believe in living in a society where my government's not responsive to me. I'm an American citizen, that's my government. They're supposed to respond to me. I know full well we'll live in an oligarchic cryptocracy, all right, But I don't have to like it and I don't have to accept it. So if I want to force my government to be bent to my will and your will as citizens of this country,
then God damn it, that's what we'll do. I don't really feel like giving up on that, and if someone else wants to give up on it, that's their problem. So on that basis, on that principle, yes, of course I support disclosure on UFOs. Doesn't mean it'll be a free ride. I think it'll be a big mess. So when people say, oh, yeah, Dolan is one of these disclosure apostles, I just laugh because it's obvious that they really don't know what they're talking about. They
had to have a breakaway civilization, I think is a fascinating idea. I'm proud that I coined the phrase. I'm proud that I thought about it. It doesn't mean that I know exactly how it is, but what I will say is it makes perfect sense to me, and a lot of things do fit in the idea that you have a classified world, let's call it the
classified world. On steroids. It's really what I'm thinking of, In other words, a situation where let's have a couple of if then statements here, if there is a genuine crash retrieval of what we would call UFO, I believe the answer to that is yes, more than one time. That's my opinion based on my research, So I go with that. That means this is technology and bodies that have been studied clandestinely, obviously in a highly classified
environment. Obviously in a way that is where certain key scientific understandings are not permitted fully to leak out to the rest of the world, except under highly controlled conditions where profit is assured, all right, and where infrastructure is not disrupted. So, for example, if there's an energy breakthrough that replaces petroleum, that gets held back. And what we are able to understand now about the classified patents is that a there are thousands of them, and be many
of them have to do with energy. So what you have while the rest of us are spinning our wheels metaphorically here with the petroleum based infrastructure and other types of traditional technologies, it seems to me that there's this classified world that's been able to race ahead with certain breakthroughs that they are indeed permitted to pursue. So what happens if they have the luxury of moving ahead and we are held back at this point right here, we can't progress further, but they
can. Would they have the ability to race far far ahead of us in certain key ways? Absolutely they would. And I'll tell you I've spoken with a number of individuals, one here at this conference who gave me very good reason to believe that he was extremely knowledgeable about this, who have been confirming to me again and again that this is largely the case. Now, what is a breakaway civilization? What is a civilization? I think about this.
You know, long before I did UFO research, I've been studying history. I read once Arnold Twainbee, you know, one of the mozarts of historical writing. He was a genius and he did a study of civilizations. That's what got me thinking about this. You know, what is it that characterizes the civilization? Well, one would be its level of technology. One would be its cosmology, it's perception of itself in the cosmos. One would be
its type of social relation among themselves and with others. Many of these things. That doesn't mean you could define a civilization. But I think this gives
us an idea. And when you look at the classified world, when you look at how it would be possible for classified in society to develop radical technologies, including some version of electrogravitics or anti graph which I think is entirely possible, which I think has been achieved, including therefore the ability to go off world in one way or another, including therefore the ability maybe to have interactions
of some sort with this other reality. Well, that would give you a very different cosmology, It would give you very different technology and a different understanding everything. Could you be considered a separate civilization, Well, that's broken way from the rest of us, I think, sure. Does that mean they all live on Mars in an alternative three scenario? No, I don't. I don't know. I think the actions on Earth, you know, the action's here, so they're here. Earth is a fascinating place for us and
for others to be here. So I guess when you define define a civilization or a society, and I think that's where it comes into some of the details. Well, I think there's a number of issues that some people have with it. But well, I'd like to know what are those issues. Maybe you can explain it. Yeah, I will. And that's what I want to talk about, is you know, when you talk about society or a civilization, you're not are you necessarily saying, you know, like families
that are growing up in this alternative? I don't know. I don't. I don't go that far to say necessarily. Yeah. So I think that's what the issue becomes. And that's what I wrote about. I don't know if you suck because I made a comment in this string of stuff. I gleaned a quick thing that you wrote enough, maybe not the details. So I was just talking about how I remember when I first heard you talk about breakaway civilizations and I thought, I need to interview him about that, because
that's very interesting. I think it's fascinating I get, and we did. We interviewed about it, and you said something very similar to what you said. Now. I think what happens, and I think it comes back to what we were talking about. With all these battles and these forums and stuff, is a lot of kill the messenger. So I think a lot of people have ran with your concept and now are kind of like Richard Dolan says,
there's a breakaway civilization, and they have hephos. One of the crazy things about seeing it is like a little child that grows off and becomes like a serial killer. So I see people like Richard Hoagland took my phrase. Alex Jones uses it all the time on his show There You Go. I hear it all the time. Yeah, And I you know, I don't know how I feel about it. On the one hand, I don't think it's a bad thing that this phrase is out there, but it's not something
that anyone can control. Once it is out there, people use it for their own purposes, and well, can I say about it? And I think what happens is it's an intellectual idea and a world that is not always so intellectual, that likes things to be simple, and so it's a bit nebulous for a lot of people, and so people define it in their own way. And I think it's those other definitions that people have a problem with. But they make you the poster child for beating it all out. I
can that they can certainly do, and I don't mind. I do think that there's some very high strangeness concerning our planet and the immediate environs, including the moon. I don't mind saying this anymore. I've had two many I don't know for a fact that there's bases on the far side of the room, but I sure as hell do you wonder. I'll just say that I've spoken many times in my conversation a number of years ago with Russell Targ I
don't mind saying it here very briefly. Russell, of course, is one of the two people to developed their CIA sponsored remote viewing program at Stanford Research Institute. I've spoken with Russell at link number of times, spoke with how
putoff the number of times the other person who developed it. Russell said to me point blank a couple of years ago that in the early nineteen eighties, one of his tasks was to train remote viewers at Fort Meade, Maryland, who were going to be remote viewing the dark on the far side of the moon. I asked him, why would they do that, you know, waiting for him to state the obvious. He threw it right back of me.
Why do you think? He said? So? Then I thought, well, I'll bite so I said, well, okay, were they looking for ET? Were they going to look for ET? He didn't say. Maybe he didn't say no. He said yes, they were going to look for ET. That was their job. I was a bit astonished that he just said that to me. I then asked, well, did they find et? Hey, it's a normal question to ask y. Yeah, those are the questions you want to ask. He said, well, I don't
know. That wasn't. That wasn't in my So whether he knows or not, I don't know, but I believe him. I had no reason to think that he was lying to me or deceiving me. So think about it. Early nineteen eighties. You got a program to train remote viewers to look for extraterrestrials and the far side of the moon. Why would they do this if they didn't have in their mind a reason to look. Well, and there's a number, I mean, then you get into all those different speculation,
and it's interesting to speculate. But SRI was pretty into some weird stuff that was seeming weird even by their colleagues. I think mcgonaga even says they were at best twenty percent accurate. No, that's right. So there's a lot of mistakes, but there was enough to give a reason to believe that there was something too remote viewing. But the point about the moon simply is
that that's just one story. Yeah, there are a number of interesting moon stories that are out there that I don't have an easy way of dismissing Carl Wolf's story. I have a very difficult time dismissing Karl Wolf. I just do. And what is this story? Carlwolf worked at right Pat back in the sixties, had a quick assignment at the NSSA where he was interacting with an NSA technician over I'm trying to get this right, getting digital telemetry or
digital data from space satellites. This is early era of doing that. And apparently the guy that he was with had these moon photos that were being looked at right at that time, and this guy showed Carl Wolf. Carl Wolf,
you know many He's said the story many times. Said he got scared because he realized he was looking at things and hearing about things that he was not cleared for, essentially what looked like structures on the Moon, And he's spoken very explicitly about it than any number of YouTube videos one could find. A woman named Donna Hare gives similar type of testimony. She's not a direct witness, but claimed that she spoke with astronauts in the in the early seventies
and talked about structures. And then there's just there's more. There's yeah, these and these stories. Just there's the Neil Armstrong story, which I think that I credit came from Timothy Good. There's this. You know, several of the crazy statements that buzz Aldron Is made make you wonder what's going on with these people. So I'm of the opinion that there is very possibly, very possibly indeed a presence, a long term presence of someone on the moon
when getting back to Breakaway, because I think that's interesting. And I mentioned to them because I thought dovetail with this idea but makes sense. Yeah, but I did want to ask you a question, just one thing that always comes to mind. With a breakaway society and these technologies that are being developed, it would seem that I just want to hear your thoughts. It would be difficult because as they develop these secret technologies, however, they're so secret
they can't really use them in any public space. I mean a lot of the stealth helicopter they used in the bin Laden was it, lots of it's still secret. Some of the other crafts supposedly they're using over there are a secret but you can't you know, use it very much. How do you get past are these things then being shelved or you think they could possibly being
used? I know you follow politics and the wars everywhere going on, you know, how do you negotiate with because one of these wars isn't to win them? One of the wars honestly, I mean, we really have to understand that we're not living in an air of nation states anymore. They're kind of done. So we have as an air of multinational groups that own a
massive war industry that love making money on war. You don't need to have, you know, a laser firing flying saucer to take out isis when you can spend another trillion dollars of people's money and everyone can get rich in the process, why would you do that? So what you do with these advanced technologies that are classified, if there is a purpose for them, that purpose would be would have to be consistent with the with the level of that technology.
In other words, if you're going to be dealing with these other beings in any way, shape or form, that's the technology that you'll use, and that technology it would be of a sufficiently high classification that its use would not be permitted for something as pedestrian as mere geopolitical conflict. All right, you want to fight your wars in Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else. He days, This military got more than ample weaponry to do basically what they want.
As long as they're spending a lot of money, Well would you don't need to use it? You know what? You understand what I mean. I understand what you mean. But if these people have all the money, they have all the power, what more do they need? I mean,
why would they want to develop? The res age? Old question? Go back five thousand years to ancient Egypt and go on to banks of the Nile, and here's the Egyptian peasant who's got nothing, some fish in a little hut, and up the rivers Pharaoh, who's got all the gold in the world. Why does Pharaoh need more gold? I don't know. Maybe because
Pharaoh doesn't really give a crap about the peasants. But Pharaoh's looking at the other kings and other royalty and competing against them, because that's your legal living. It matters when you're at the top the tippy top of the human food chain. You're competing against other people and you're Serpa. It's like a game. How much wealth and how much power can they amass? That's what it's about. Well, and I agree because if there are these people, because
you look at history and you do see that sort of thing. But these people also keep themselves in check, taking each other down peg by peg here and there so they can climb on top of each other. There's always, thank goodness, there's power struggles at the top exactly. And speaking of you know, along those lines with ISIS and everything, and who knows what I would think, you know, if Obama, for instance, knew there was a spaceship at flying at Area fifty one that had lasers that could kill Isis,
he would probably use it. I don't know, you don't know what because he would be that obviously he's struggling politically, and I think all these politicians. He'd introducing the radical revolutionary technology that would transform our infrastructure. That's a tall order to ask ag any president, you know, there's a tall or he would be the hero that took out Isis because he finally unclassified this secret flying saucergle lasers for a bomb on I know it would never happen,
it would never go down like that. Well, ever, it could be possible. He has no clue that something like this exist. See even if it does, he I would guess he has not been briefed. I had a con I've mentioned this in public a few times, and I don't want to be labor something I've talked about over and over. One day, I'm going to mention this man's name. He's a very prominent, very brilliant man who was high level at the CIA, and I just once asked him.
I have a few conversations with him. I said, well, what do presidents know? You know, one of the things that everyone wants to know. And his answer was essentially, some have known more than others. And he said, you know, presidents come and go. Some are reliable, some are not, Some drink. This is during W. Bush's presidency, and I don't know. I really didn't under In any case, he said, there are lifers who are there forever and they manage the program. And
you know what, president is a public relations guy. He's got to kiss the baby, shake the hands, he's got to be the face. He cannot possibly manage the hundreds of special access programs that are out there that are often highly illegal and incendiary in one way or another, and he can't do
it logistically anyway. Yeah, So to let you know, for something as explosive as the presence of other beings from wherever they hell they're from, with technology that would transform our world in an instant, no, I think not. Well. One of my favorite statements is Clinton's when he was asked, I think in Hong Kong about UFO's in Area fifty one and stuff, and he said, well, I looked into it. I didn't find anything, but I wouldn't be the first president that career bureaucrats have lied to. And
he seemed to be like, ho hum about it. Oh, well, I tried. They didn't tell me. I'm busy with my other stuff. The impression that I got from this individual was that Clinton did not get very much information. He did say that Jimmy Carter knew, Ronald Reagan knew, and Bush Senior knew. Oh, very interesting, interesting that Carter would be in there. Well, he told me about a briefing that Carter supposedly had in June of nineteen seventy seven, which left Carter apparently near tears are sobbing.
Really, I wrote about it in a d after disclosure, and I may have written about it in my newest book I can't recall. But you know, I mean, this is this came from this gentleman in a very ultra precisely described manner. This is a guy who qualifies everything five or six ways before he gives you. His exact answer to a question is very precise. But anyway, I don't know how he got into that. Oh we Obama. Oh and using flying saucers you take out ices. I just don't
think so. I think this would never happen. I think these politicians, that's all they care about the world would be damned. As long as they look good, they can be out there say yeah, but you know the ones in control, are they really well? And that's the questions. Unfortunately, if there is one, he probably wouldn't be allowed to use it. Sorry, Obama, we can't let you use it. It's like good fellows. You become a made man, all right. You know, you attend
the Bilderberg meeting in nineteen ninety two, your name's Bill Clinton. You become the next president. That's how it works Obama same thing. You know, they become dipped into the world and they understand that they they have got to play ball with the people who put them into power. And I mean, I guess to that point it gets a little bit off topic, but maybe not. And I know, you know, I've seen kind of some of
your posts. It's almost like the media and everybody bullies around the president's a lot, and currently they seem to be against the public interest, trying to bully Obama into escalating this war. Well you've got there are a lot of crazy people in both parties who are really interested in the war. And as critical as I have been about much of Obama, I think of him is
very much a continuation of the George W. Bush presidency. Nonetheless, if McCain had been elected president, mccanna I think is truly insane and would have tried to go to war with Russia, which would have been an absolutely really bad, wrong, stupid thing to do. Yeah. So yeah, there's there's there are these push there's a push to escalate. You know, It's basically what happens is you put a rank through people's nose and you lead them
like a cattle through the field. In other words, they're pushing for war now and they want to escalate this war against isis. Some of these people want to fight Russia. Bayer just made this ridiculously stupid statement about well if uh if what's his name, who's the candidy ran against Obama, Mick Romney. If Romney had been elected, he would have punched putin in the nose.
Stupid juvenile statement like that. Bayner just said, who are these people that they actually think this is the one, like you're gonna have a war with Russia. Really, it's kind of funny because this makes me think it's something you said in your top that maybe it's good that these guys are controlling things and maybe we need to have, you know, some metering of what comes out to the public and stuff like that. Don't I say that you
said something, Yeah, you did say you did prose that possibility. Maybe you don't fill that way. Well, there are truths of this reality that could be very dark and very scary, but it might be good because I know people at the top have a lot of hard decisions to make that there there are people up there behind the scenes metering a baner or some of these
other goofballs. What do you mean, metering? I want to make sure I'm understanding, so that you know this sort of rhetoric isn't escalating out of control. That hopefully the are okay, cooler heads behind the scenes that are prevailing. Right. There is this push, there's a definite push on Obama for him to be aggressive now in the Middle East. Look, no one likes ISIS. I mean, they're horrible, They're fairly reprehensible, and they
are terrifying for sure, but there are reasons. The best thing that you could say about US policy on this, and I know we're getting off UFO path, the best thing you can say is that US policy has been utterly, hopelessly incompetent, which led to the rise of ISIS. That goes from
Bush to Obama, both of them. Bush, you know, reckless invasion of Iraq and three which never had justification ever ever, he did it anyway and wrecked that country's infrastructure and led directly to the radicalization as a result of ISIS. And then Obama's decision to bomb Syria in twenty eleven equally just long headed stuff. These people think that they can just go in there and run these countries without repercussion. That's the best you could say is that this idiocy
policy led to it. What you could also say is that there's something even more insidious behind the scenes. Turkey, a NATO ally has absolutely led to us direct support of ISIS. And we are now seeing this very very clearly right under the nose of the US. And there are now claims, increasingly many of them, that have claimed that the CIA itself was directly arming the
individuals who became ISIS. It wouldn't shock me in the least, all right, And the most nefarious way to look at it, and I don't know that this is true, but I don't rule it out, is that this
is all a game. It's all a game to find a new hitler, a new evil enemy, to spend to justify another near trillion dollars a year on in military weaponry that we cannot afford that was blowing our future away on I think it likely it came around, I think to pertain to our conversation, but to kind of wrap things up, and at least I want to get your perspective on this. I never really deal with definitives. I think it's hard to do that in this field to say never this or definitely that,
And you spoke to this a little earlier. I mean when I interpret when you talk about breakaway societies and some of these ideas is that they're very, very like your whole book ad with Bryce. It's very interesting speculation and thought about what could happen, which is definitely helpful. I mean, do you feel definitive on a lot of these things? I would say, here's what I'm definitive about. If I were to be on like NBC News being
grilled, what could I defend? I could defend the fact that there is a phenomenon that our military is engaged for decades and generations that has never been supposed to exist, but does exist. And I could say that that doesn't mean that I know that they're alien, but there is a phenomenon with technology that seems to have intention violating sensitive airspace many many times, getting high levels of concern elicited from high level US military planners and intelligence communities that I would
say, I'm strongly I could take that to the bank. There is, in other words, a phenomenon going on with something highly extraordinary that is not
supposed to exist but does now beyond that. We have many, many questions, and I could give you maybe gradations of what I think is true or not, but the core, you know, with all of the madness that surrounds UFO phenomenon, the difficulties and the genuine mysteries that are there, I'm always finding myself falling back to that core reality, which is that there is
something happening here that is not supposed to that demands public discourse. Right great and hopefully like you, because I do the same thing, fall back on that and that inspires me to keep going. Is that what inspires you to keep going? The main thing that inspires me to keep going is simply the desire to keep exploring. I could never just do a regular job in some company or office. I am not capable. I have to explore. I have to keep pushing. And this is I've stumbled into I think, maybe
the greatest mystery that I could possibly have ever stumbled onto. And I don't pretend I'll ever get to the full final answer to it. I doubt it. I think what we're dealing with is phenomenon that's just beyond the limits of maybe what the human mind even can comprehend. But that doesn't mean that there's no value in the journey. It doesn't mean that it's not a valuable attempt.
So I get satisfaction out of that. And beyond that, I believe in the political the political necessity or justness of trying to get our system back to some semblance of responsiveness to people. And you know, the UFO phenomenon isn't the only knife in the back of the American Republic. There have been several, the creation of empire, the creation of a mass media, but
it's one. It's a significant one, and it's prompted a lot of these things that have undermined, you know, the ideals and things that we most of us grew up believing in. So I think getting a government to be responsive on this most important of issues is a fight worth having. I think it's being an adult and responsible as a citizen too. I mean, I agree with you so much that you know, we always struggled to engage the main stream because just pulling out of everything, it's kind of like not doing
your civic duty. Get in their face. You know, I grew up with my I've often spoken of my dad. He's still around, he's retired. New York City cop and my father inspired me in more ways than I could possibly imagine. My dad was very active undercover cop in New York, worked Mike Tyson's old neighborhood in Benkrarce Syvesant in Brooklyn, and my dad was kind of a fighting police corruption in his day. He lost his battles, but he gave it a good fight. And I remember being about ten years
old. I was a skinny, little, tiny kid and my dad was a huge guy, and he put his big I was sitting on the couch with him, and he put his big hand on my knee and he said, listen, in your life, you're going to fight a lot of fights. And I'm thinking, what are you talking about that? Well, I had a lot of those as a kid, actually, But he was thinking
of something else and I wasn't quite getting it. And he said, and there may be times when you are you are a minority of one, surrounded by a thousand people are trying to shout you down and tell you how wrong you are. He said, but if you if you have justice on your side, and then if you have truth on your site, never be afraid to fight, and never be afraid to win. And he he said that to me, and it was this ten year old boy, and it made
a big impact on me. I just gobbled it up. And it's funny now because in my first few years when I was researching UFOs, I didn't tell my dad or my mom. I was like, you know, sneaking around with my UFO class apologist exactly. And then when I kind of came out with it, it was gratifying to me that both of my parents were kind of happy about it. My dad now he gets worried about me. He says, ah, Richie, you know, you're putting yourself out there a little bit. I said, hey, man, this is exactly what
you did. Don't give me any agree and then he laughs because he knows. Well, that's awesome. That's a good place to end. Thank you so much for joining me my pleasure, Eleandro. Thank you so much to
Richard Dolan for being on the show. His website used to be Keyhole Publishing, but some of you are probably aware he's seeing that change that to the Richard Dolan Press, so you can google him at Richard Dolan Press and you'll get all of the latest information, including the latest books that he has been publishing and some good ones, including a new one by Bruce mcabee, so that's pretty exciting. So it was a lot of fun to talk about him.
And it's always fun to touch on some subjects that need to be traversed delicately, because you know, that's where the fun stuff is, where we can kind of talk about some of the stuff we disagree on or come to understandings or not agree to disagree in many cases. So I'm sure there will be some conversation spawned by our conversation where some will choose not to agree to disagree and will disagree vehemently and loudly, like of course people are prone to
do on the line, those grouchy sons of guns. But of course many of you will enjoy in a kind way. And of course we do love to hear your responses on our Facebook or on our page at Open Minds dot tv, so we love to hear from everybody. We love to hear from listeners too when we go places, so it was a lot of fun to
hear from some of the listeners. It was fun because at the phone booth, I was met a couple there when we were going out of town who were at the conference that we're also there taking pictures of the famous phone booth where Travis Walton reappeared and we were talking and the ladies like, I recognize your voice from somewhere, Oh are you Alejandro, and oh you're from Open Mind. So she was a listener. UFO Angel is what she goes by. It's her online title. So hello to you all. It was nice
to meet you, and it was nice to meet other listeners. I'll also be at Paula Harris's conference this weekend in Laughlin. I think it's called like UFO Nostalgia, but that's in Laughlin and Nevada this weekend, so that to be interesting and I'll be there. If you want to say hi, that
would be wonderful. But as Rich and I talked about, it's very important that you are at the UFO Congress this year because we are having Bob Lazarre in an exclusive historical appearance where he will come and do a Q and A that will be hosted by George Knapp that will follow a presentation by George Knapp on Bob Lazar's case. And I invite you, if you're a skeptic, I invite you especially to come and check it out, because you know how Jason and I are on the show. We like to look at things with
a critical eye. And George Knapp, you know, had some compelling things to say about Bob Blazar, and I think he's going to tackle some of the tough questions. I've asked a lot of UFO researchers, including Rich and others, to be sure to give me their questions. Someone else I saw this weekend and spoke to at length was mister Stanton Friedman. And it's kind of funny because lots of people were saying, well, you know you're having
Bob Blazar. Stanton Friedman would never go to a conference with Bob Lazar being there. It's not the case at all, you know. Stanton. I asked him about that, Pe told him people were saying that, and he said, oh, that's silly. I'd be kind of a coward if I wasn't wanting to be present in something like that. So he does want to be there. Our speaker list is full and we've had Stanton recently, so he won't be speaking, but he did ask if he could be there.
He wants to be a vendor, so he's going to try to work it out. So he is there, and I think that'll be a lot of fun. I also told him, make sure to give us your questions and we'll ask. But that way, after people Seelazar, they can go over and say, hey, Santon, what did you think? Or you know? And who knows, maybe Stanton will see it and say, well, you know, there is some compelling stuff that I have to look at here. Who knows, I don't know, but it'll be neat if he does
show up. So definitely come to the UFO Congress. Tickets are selling very quickly. We are about to send out a print piece that we mail out a mailer to people, and once we ship that out, you know, the registrations come fast and furious. We already have a lot of registrations. Rooms are still available at the host Hotel, so go reserve your room there if for some reason you know get there in time. Luckily, there are nearby hotels that you can stay out that are very pleasant as well and very
close. And the weather, of course will be great. Those of you from the East coast, or like Jason and Boise, are facing some colder weather, but you can come out here in February where it's nice and pleasant. There's even people in the pool the hot tub in February out here, so it's a lot of fun. So check out the UFO Congress, check out spacing Out on our YouTube. A lot of great fun stuff there,
and then also check out everything else we have. Oh, I wanted to mention the video one of the other cool things we're gonna have on YouTube. Like I said, we're getting a video put together on the Travis Walton UFO and Counter site. Hopefully we'll have that up Friday, if not early next week. But I told you that we went to mof on their boot camp a week or so ago. We're gonna have that video up in the next couple of days, and we got some really good interviews. You're gonna want
to check out that. I know you're gonna like some really cool stuff there. So we'll have that up soon too on our YouTube site. And again you can find this all at openminds dot tv or on YouTube. You can look for our channel called open Minds TV, or you can go to the UFO Congress for more. Thank you all for joining us, and thank you to Caleb Hanks for doing the opening and close music. You can find him
by googling chronicles and all kinds of free cool music there. Thank you to the PSN Network who also plays the show, and thank you all so much for listening. We love you people, we really do. When we put this together, it is out of love for our wonderful listeners. You guys are awesome. Until next week, Audio's Mood touchos