Welcome to Open Minds Radio with your host Alejandro Rojas, former Director of Public Education and official spokesperson for the Mutual UFO Network. Alejandro has been a UFO paranormal researcher and journalist for nearly a decade and has logged hours in the field investigating the paranormal up close and personal. And now Open Minds Radio presents evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your host, Alejandro Rojas.
Hello, and welcome to Open Minds Radio. This is Alejandro Rojas. We have another great show today and this is our first show over the Phoenix airwaves, so this is really exciting. We're on CAFNX AM eleven hundred going live. We also have our video stream going and our online stream going, so check us out at open mind dot tv. To say this great studio.
It's beautiful in here, but we have another great show. We've been doing the show for quite some time, but this is the first time over the air on AM eleven hundred and today's guest is someone that I'm a big fan of. His name is Richard Dolan. He's an acclaimed UFO historian. He's the author of the definitive multi volume UFOs and the National Security State. He's spoken about UFOs to audiences around the world, and he's also appeared in
a lot of documentaries. In fact, you may have seen him if you watch the UFO documentaries out there, because there's tons of them these days, and he stars in almost all of them, a lot of them. He's been on the History Channel, the Sci Fi Channel BBC all over the place, and he hosted a show called sci Fi Investigates on the sci Fi Channel. You might have seen that one. But first, just to kind of introduce ourselves, Open Mind to Phoenix. We are an investigation and research group.
We cover news on UFOs and related topics. We have our website openminds dot tv, where we put all of our news and daily UFO headlines. We'll get to that in a second. Also, we obviously have a radio show and we have a magazine coming out very soon. You're gonna be able to catch this in the airport or in Barnes Noble. We also have a TV show we're working on, and we have little video spots that you can check out on our website that are kind of cool, some little vignettes on
the latest news where you can hear the reporters talking about the stories. But before we get to our guests, let's talk about UFOs in the news. This is headlines from around the world. We can close eye on conventional media and their coverage of this subject. All of these headlines are posted on openminds dot tv, so you can check them out as you're at your leisure, or if you're in front of the computer right now, you can come see
what I'm talking about. One of the first stories that we've received in the last couple weeks here is pretty interesting because, of course at the beginning of the year you have the psychics talking about what's going to happen in the new year, and in California there's a group of psychics who talked about UFOs and they believe that Larry King is actually going to have an extraterrestrial as a guest
sometime in twenty ten. So that would be awfully interesting. Of course, should that happen, I may be a little skeptical, but who knows, he works wonders, he gets the good guests, so it could happen.
Actually, a very popular psychic, Sylvia Brown, I think on the Montel Williams show talked about twenty ten being the period of time where extraterrestrials are going to come introduce themselves and kind of say hi and welcome to the galactic civilizations, and we'll be able to join our galactic brother But who knows, pretty interesting stuff from the psychics in twenty ten. We'll see how accurate they are
in the coming months. Also, UFO stories. Really, if you go look at this the website, you're gonna see tons of links on the page about sightings and conventional news, especially local papers cover a lot of sightings all over the place. You have stuff in Britain, you have stuff in San
Diego, you have stuff in Texas. One of the biggest organizations and you might have heard at the beginning of the show, I was part of This organization is the Mutual UFO Network and they take a lot of UFO reports and they also have their director of communications, Roger Marsh, who is an examiner. He writes for a site called examiner dot com and he's the national UFO examiner. He puts the reports from moufon on this site and they had an
interesting one there at moufon dot com. You can go and you can put in your report, and you can also upload any pictures or video. They received a video from a gentleman in California who said he was watching a UFO for five minutes before it disappeared, and he uploaded a few minutes of that video, so you can check that out at the front page of the website.
That's one of the most interesting sightings. And then in other news we have, actually this is pretty funny, a very controversial ad campaign that's been running. Essentially, it's a gym. They're trying to get people to work out and stay healthy, and they're using some fear tactics to do that. Their ad says that aliens will eat the fatties first. You can see how that's a little controversial. Some people don't like that, but hey, it's
working. He's getting some national headline news by using this this ad campaign, so that's another interesting one. However, more seriously, on a serious note, some of the stories that we've been writing about are kind of fun. I just posted a story yesterday about scientists and UFOs, and I'm sure we're going to get into this with Richard Dolan here in a minute. But often I get the question you know, if there really was something to this subject,
scientists would be interested, and actually they are interested. There are dozens of scientists that I listed in this story, and I talked about some of the organizations, including MOFON and some of the other major UFO organizations that were started by scientists that we're interested in this field. So you can go check out that story. Another one is another interesting move on story. Actually,
Richard Lang is part of the rapid response team for Movefon. They're called the Star Team, and one of the stories they've done recently is a new in New York, a UFO that buzzed a car causing some electromagnetic effects. So this UFO kind of went over the car, the car stopped, the researchers went out there check the car, and now it's emitting these electromagnetic fields.
So really strange stuff. Some great work done there, and as you'll see here and with some of our upcoming stories, there is some physical evidence when it comes to UFOs. UFOs over Argentina is another story we have posted.
This is a fun one too. Argentina. In this kind of rural city, there's actually twenty thousand people out there, most of them were outside in the middle of the night because it was extremely hot out there, eating ice cream, you know, drinking tea, things like that, trying to stay cool, and this large they say, two hundred to three hundred foot cylinder, hovered over their city for a period of time up to an hour.
Most of the people in the town saw it, then took off. They then reported seeing it in a town called Eltoonall, and then in El Tuonall it hovered over a dam. At this dam, there were some fishermen. They say they saw beams of light coming down from the UFO to the dam, and then beams of light going from the dam to the UFO, and then a blackout happened. The blackout lasted for twelve hours. The power company looked at the turbines and the damn they saw one of the turbat turbines was
completely fried. And so they're saying, possibly this UFO might have caused, you know, this huge blackout in Argentina. That's a great story. And luckily one of our writers, Antonio Juneis, he's from Chile and he speaks Spanish, so he was able to monitor the Spanish news where it made a lot of noise and get some of the recent updates from that. He was able to also talk to some of the local researchers out there in Argentina.
It's helpful to have a Spanish speaker as part of the program. Someone else I'll talk about is Marizio Bayada. He's another one of our writers. He's from Italy and as you can tell, I love to say his name, Mauritzio Bayada. Ah, And he has been a ufologist out there in Europe for quite some time, so we get a lot of European stories through him as well. In fact, he did a lot of research into the alien
autopsy. You may remember a couple of years ago, quite a few years ago now this famous video that came out, the alien autopsy, and he researched that, and you can read about his research on our website. Right now, we have to take a short break, but we'll be right back with our guest, Richard Dolan. All right, we are back and you are listening to Open Minds Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and this is KFNEX AM eleven hundred. We are here with our guest who is
on the line, Richard Dolan. Are you there, Hi? Elandro. Hello, it's great to hear from you again. Same here, very very glad to be on with you. You know, I got one of the biggest thrills in my euphological career last night. I was looking through your book again and I had never looked at the acknowledgments and I found my name there. You know it, man, Man, that was a huge honor. I was so thrilled. I wanted to thank you for that. Well.
I up book. You very welcome. I try to remember everyone who I really felt helped me in some way or another during the last many years of doing this book, and certainly you are not forgotten, sir. Thank you very much. And I guess just to talk about the books for a second. UFOs and the National Security State. It's a multi volume set so far. You are on issue too, which goes up to nineteen ninety one, and you've covered the field since the forties, that's right, and you're working
on a third. Yeah. In fact, I spent a number of hours earlier this week writing chap Volume three. I haven't tried too much time doing that. I want to get this done, and the first chapter is now being put together. Great. That's really exciting and really, I mean, as far as I know, it's the only set that's so thorough about you know, year by year what's gone on in the research in this field, and I think people are always explored at how much has happened. It's Alejandro.
It blows my mind even now when I review the amount of UFO related information that is relevant for all of those years. It's an enormous amount and I had to cut a lot out, but I really did. I felt. I feel that I packed in the most relevant information that is available to us for that time. And it's just the thing is, if you were to take any given day or any given year and just pick one at random, my feeling is you would probably hit a day that had some important event
that took place. And the thing that always gets to me is that they're almost never reported in the mainstream media. It's like this massive amount of hidden history, right that on any given days just this rich had they been reported as a headline news, I think the world would be in a state of constant shock. Right if these events were to get the amount of attention that they really deserve. I think people get really shocked we put UFO headlines up
every day, and usually there's at least four. And if you go look at the website, for instance, at open Minds at you you're going to see a whole page full of headlines around the world. And that's just from January third. I mean, really, there's just so much going on. I'm impressed by the open Minds page in the news section there, I think is very good. I agree with you, there's just a great deal of information out there anyone who's interested in learning about this. It's the easiest thing
in the world now to find legitimate sources. I'm constantly struck by skeptical people, but who really just they haven't bothered to look into it, and they constantly saying, but where's the evidence, where's the evidence? And I just keep wanting to say, look, it's so easy to find. Where do you want the truck to be backed up? Right? Exactly? And likely you've put it into some concise reports here in your books that people can go
read. I really wanted to do that. One of my primary goals in writing the books that I do is to provide a permanent resource not just for the most serious researchers, but even those who are just casually interested who want to know what the fuss is all about. I want them to be able to open up a book and find something that's easy to read, even though
it's a large book. I wanted it to be an easy read so that they could get a sense of really what this history is all about, and yes, to try to make sense out of it, to try to write about it in a way that incorporates the rest of the world into the world, into the whole UFO scene, integrating UFO history in other words, with the larger history that we all live in. Well, what inspired you to get involved with this field? Wow? Well I think about this a lot.
I get asked this every so often. It's not like I grew up thinking that I would be a UFO researcher or historian years ago, right just doing standard historical research. I was doing doctoral research at the University of Rochester and Cold War studies. Prior to moving into Cold War studies, I'd been doing a lot of German and Soviet history that had a nice background in international history, modern Cold War stuff, and nothing with UFOs. But I got
interested in the early to mid nineties, and really through two ways. One was just surfing around on what was then the Internet, not really the World Wide Web, but rather news groups. This is nineteen ninety four or so. If anyone's old enough to remember hanging out on alt paranet ufo, that was was the place to be. Well that's I mean, that's where the information was coming out in these news groups. And your book covers all of
that news group activity where a lot was going on back then. Absolutely that tried. That whole scene really took off in the late eighties. I wasn't following it at that early, but I caught it before it died truly not anything what it used to be. But in the early nineties it was still going and I caught it, and it was a fascinating thing for me to read some very intelligent people putting up some very very interesting articles. There was a lot of the stupid stuff you know, you stink, No, he
was thinking the flame wars are going full guns back then. But there were very very intelligent people. And there was one guy, actually I still chat with him from time to time. His name is Val German and he lives out in the Midwest, and he wrote some excellent articles that really tried to look at the UFO cover up in the broader context and really trying to do some analysis. And I read his pieces and I thought, that's the kind of work I really want to be doing. And I guess I took the
ball and ran with it. The other thing that was a turning point with me was reading Timothy Goods very excellent book Above Top Secret, which I think I read around nineteen ninety four also, and I'll never forget this. I was in a bookstore and I just picked it up and flipped through it and thought, oh, I recognize this name and that name and that department, and these documents looked like they might be legitimate. And this moment just hit
me where I thought not even were UFOs real? Because I was at a much more conservative place at that time. I just wanted to know if this was a legitimate topic of our history, and did high level people take it seriously as it appeared to be. And if that was so, then my simple question was, well, why had this never been handled in an academic history interesting? How could it not be? And so I looked into it from that point of view, asking the question was this ever serious part of
our history? And of course it turned out my feeling that it was. Was there some legitimate work, some researchers or high level people involved that shocked you at the beginning say that again, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking me here. Well, like you're saying you were able to look at some of these documents and look into who was looking into this. Were there are some specific incidents or specific people or documents that really shocked you. Yeah,
there were a few. You know, a number of the military documents. These are the ones that really grabbed me then, and they still grabbed me. Now. Anytime you read a document that was by a three star general or a high level CIA analyst and they seem to be taking the UFO phenomenon seriously, that's interesting. And so for example, the famous, at least in UFO research, the famous Nathan Twining document of nineteen forty seven really
grabbed me. And this is a document Nathan twenty was then a three star general over right Airfield, Air Material Command Center. He was a very high level man. Later became head of the Chief of STEFF of the Air Force.
Nathan Twining in September forty seven wrote a document that described the serious nature of the UFO phenomenon, the flying discs as they were called, and we're reporting what military reports were saying to him, describing these documents and great, excuse me, describing these objects in great detail, disc shapes, domed on top, flat on bottom, what objects look like that right in forty seven
or even today? And so that really that really affected me. And then there are a number of documents that describe violations of sensitive airspace through the forties and fifties and sixties and seventies, right, we have that also are equally compelling. We have a we've posted one of your stories that you let us repost twelve government documents that take UFO seriously. And number one, you listen, there's a twying memo. You also have a memo number two from Hoover,
j Edgar Hoover. Yeah, that's a very well it was addressed to j Edgar Hoover. But nevertheless it's a fascinating document describing a special agent in the FBI writing to Hoover describing how the military branches are taking the flying sauce of phenomenon very seriously and have classified it as top secret. Yeah, we don't have a response that Hoover made to that particular document. But this is one of several very significant FBI documents that do talk about UFOs. I think
it's the most interesting of the FBI documents. Another I put a number of others on the site. I created that article. I originally wrote it actually a number of years ago and didn't do too much with it, and then really looked it over just a few months ago and decided to put it up on the site. Wanted a seri smories of documents listed for anybody to read, with the documents themselves reproduced and you can click them and enlarge them and
read them yourself. On my site, which is keyhole publishing dot com. I can put that in and then also also with some commentary by me about the significance of these documents, and you can also people can get your book at keyhole publishing dot com. Yeah, that's right, It's available at my website ship and I pack and ship them every day right from here. I am the publisher of my book. I've discovered that I've really enjoyed being the publisher of this book, and in fact, I'm taking on a couple of
other book projects now as a publisher. I'm about to publish. If I just may mention this a new book by the very, very excellent researcher, doctor Richard Souder, who happens to be a good friend of mine. Richard is, in my view, the premiere public expert at least on underground bases underground tunnel systems. Great, well, we've got it going to be a great one. That's exciting. We've got to go to break right now. We'll talk some more about some of the UFO history. We'll be right back
with Richard Dolan. All right, we are back. You're listening to Open Minds Radio and I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas. We're on KFNX AM eleven hundred in the Phoenix metro area, and we are here with our guest, Richard Dolan, author of UFO's in the National Security State. One of the stories you covered, I noticed in your recent book is one that a television show that got a lot of people interested. I was just a kid, but I actually caught some of the show, and that's UFO Cover Up Live.
That's right in nineteen eighty eight. I was wondering, if you can kind of cover for the listeners what that show is all about. Oh, gladly, it's a fascinating show I saw, and also Alejandro when I was long before I got involved in studying this topic and to put it in perspective, in nineteen eighty eight, there were very very little, it was a very little true UFO television shows of documentary were out there at that time, and this was one. It came out in October of nineteen eighty It was
hosted by Mike Barrell of Mash fame of the television show Mash. And it was two hours, and it purported it was a very kind of a serious let's just say it was meant to be a very truthful expose, right. The guests were very serious, but Barrel seemed to be kind of tongue in cheek. You always had a smirk. Well. It was interesting because some
of it I think was very straight up. There was a debate that it featured on abductions, which featured Bud Hopkins, but the big part of it was that it featured the statements of Robert Collins, who is an Air Force captain at the time, and also Richard Doty, who was an Air Force Office of Special Investigations. They had both been recently retired from the Air Force
when they appeared on this show. But really the show was the first one to talk about Majestic twelve MJ twelve, which was a very new concept in UFO research at the time, and the MJ twelve documents to this day are controversial. They purport to be documents that are at the presidential level describing the
reality of the alien presence on Earth. I also found it interesting that these two Air Force intelligence gentlemen, Dody and Collins, like you had mentioned, they were really talking about some far out there type of stuff compared to the rect the people on the show. Absolutely. One of the things that everybody who saw that show remembered was that the aliens were very fond of ancient Tibetan music, and they liked vegetables, but their favorite snack was strawberry. And
this is the thing that everybody I remember this years and years later. Oh yeah, the ice cream Aliens like ice cream. So you know, the question of course arises as any of this true, is some of it true? It is all of it true? And who knows? There's the thing. The problem with what happened in the UFO field by the late nineteen eighties.
This is really a very simple let me simplify the scenario here. During the nineteen seventies, the UFO research community made massively important strides in uncovering and exposing the cover up. That's really the reason for the subtitle of this book. It's the cover up exposed in this volume two. And this is due to two things. One was through the recently recent strengthening of the Freedom of
Information Act during the nineteen seventies. You know, prior to the nineteen seventies, sure there were researchers who were convinced there was a cover up, but they didn't have a lot of government documents to make their case with. After the mid seventies, by the late seventies, it was a very different situation. Thousands of documents by then had been released from the US National Archives describing some incredible UFO encounters that our military was having UFO documents by the CIA and
so on. None of them by themselves were a single smoking gun proving that aliens were here, But when you looked at the cumulative effect of these, it was a very powerful collection indeed, and so this presumably would be a threat to secrecy. The other prong of attack, as it were, in the late seventies, were due to the leaks that were then coming out really for the first time in nature way dealing with retrievals of crash UFOs. Most
prominently of these was Roswell, but Roswell was not the only case. Stories by alleged insiders of having guarded alien bodies and things like this, and they were all starting to come out in the late nineteen seventies, and so this in some of these leaks looked like they might be pretty good. And so the problem was, again from the point of view of secrecies, are these going to be a threat? And so what you find in the early nineteen eighties is, in my view, what appears to be a counter attack by
the intelligence community. In my view, the most logical thing they were trying to do is to disable these two sources. And so you have documents that are released that are of disputed origin, and this includes the MJ twelve documents.
That I'm not saying that the MJ TOWLD documents are fake by the way, right, I think it's a simplistic argument that many people have said, is that well, because there appears to be this problem or that problem and because the providence of them is Air Force Intelligence, that they are therefore faked. I don't see it that way. They come back to that and then
the other. The other thing that happened in the early nineteen eighties, if I could just continue here, is that there is strong evidence of infiltration by Air Force Intelligence and CIA of the major UFO research groups at the time at PRO. This also includes muff On. This also includes KUFOS in my view, and a lot of this had Some of that had to do with Dody himself, this gentleman who was on UFO cover up Live maybe some strong e
Doty was involved in this right from the get go. He in the early eighties and nineteen eighty three showed the researcher Linda Moulton, how some documents that she was not allowed to copy. He showed these to her at Currently Air Force Base and they were Presidential briefing document This is a year and a half before the MJ twelve documents were released to other researchers. Linda Moulton, how to her credit in my view, did not do anything rash with these documents.
She sat on them for years and really only started talking about them on once the MJ twelve information started leaking out. Their other means well, I guess that's the issue with MJ twelve. That makes it a little more difficult. Those documents were leaked documents, so it's hard to verify, whereas a lot of these other documents that you're talking about were retrieved through Freedom of Information Act, but they were able to be confirmed as real. That's right.
There's right out at the US National Archives, and there is with the vast majority of these UFO documents. There's no dispute by even the most ardent skeptic of their authenticity. They have a record and file numbers and their appropriate appropriately declassified documents. There are these others that I've no home, No one will claim them, doesn't mean that they're not legitimate. The thing is, here's
how I look at at this whole messy business. If you and I were part of an intelligence team to disable this topic to some extent, and we were charge with releasing disinformation about it, we would be fools if we were simply to make up some completely fictitious document and release it out there, because frankly, it wouldn't be any difficulty at all to prove it as false. What you want to do is have something that looks legitimate, but then is
packaged in such a way that it can't be accepted. In other words, you put some truth out, but you'd put that truth out in such a way that it's disabled. That's one of the key things that we want to do is disinformation specialists. And I believe this is exactly what has happened with some of these UFO documents, and I think this is true of the MJ
twelve. In other words, I'm of the opinion that there's too much that has been confirmed in the MJ twelve documents to think that they're completely fake. I think that they're probably legitimate. And we have to keep in mind too that every document goes through multiple versions. There are probably other versions of the MJA twelve documents around there. Right, well, we'll get into some of the more confirmable documents after the break and also take calls. Will be right
back still eleven hundred. All right, we are back, and you're listening to Open Minds Radio on camp an X Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and we are here with our guest Richard Dolan. I was wondering if you could cover one of the cases that came out in the seventies that was one of the most convincing where you had a lot of you know, valley government documentation and witnesses. Sure, well, there's the number of these. Probably the probably the most powerful of all, in my opinion, is
the famous case among researchers. But if someone is casually following the shield, it may still not know about it. And that's the nineteen seventy six case of a phenomenal object over the city of Tehran in Iran. And this of course is back in the days of the Shah, when Iran was a US ally. The US had an embassy there, and this got a lot of
attention by the US government. What happened, in brief was that Tehran residents up in the evening sky, this is in September of seventy sixth and he saw this brilliant object that was completely unrecognizable, and many of them phoned the
local airport, Metrabad Airport. Eventually the air traffic controller came out and looked out expecting to see nothing, and he too was blown away by this brilliant object that he had never noticed he'd never seen anything like it, so he called the Air Force, which scrambled two F four fighter interceptors in succession. Now, the thing is that each of these aircraft in their turn, when they got to a range of about twenty five miles, had their electronics and
communications systems tampered with. In one case, the pilot was about to fire a missile at this object, when at that moment it's almost as if his finger was like lifted right above the button when his missile system went offline. The second pilot came in about a half hour later, had a similar experience. Those of these men tracked the object on their airborne radar. They both saw the object visually, so you have multiple COMA confirmations here. The object's
radar return was as large or larger than a commercial airline. It was quite large, and in the second F four, as it approached the UFO dropped this smaller object out of it, which then went on an intersteff course of the F four. The pilot, almost in a state of panic, turned as sharply as he could away, and this smaller object turned inside his own arc according to this US military document, and then rejoined the mother craft.
For a perfect rejoint. We have a four page Defense Intelligence Agency document describing this in vivid detail. It's truly extraordinary. We also have the interviews by one of the pilots who later became a general years later, describing it had great length. We also have US Defense satellite information. We had a particular defense satellite called the Defense Support Program at DSP satellite which tracked a UFO at exactly that place and time. So, in other words, we have multiple
confirmations of an extraordinary thing here. The question that I keep asking myself is what could do the things that this object did? It was stationary in the air, It was able to detach an object that had extraordinary maneuverability. It was able to disable two top line fighter planes in the world at that time, disabled their electronics gear. And no one has claimed this object, and this is now over thirty years ago. Whether it's of human manufacture or extraterrestrial,
it's almost a secondary issue here. The real question the military historians should be asking is what the hell can do that? Right? And of course what you find within the mainstream is bland dismissal of these cases because they frankly what you find is they haven't bothered to really look at it. Right there. It is these cases, like you said, you've got these twelve cases
you go over in this story with government documents. You know, you brought up a good question, is there are all of these craft being seen that seem to be demonstrating this incredible technology, some of these incidents happening thirty forty fifty years ago, you know, when we certainly didn't have anything that could go, you know, seven thousand miles per hour and make right hand turns like people are seeing. So, but then we have the extraterrestrial hypothesis that
they could be extraterrestrial, and some people struggle with that. Do you subscribe to the hypothesis that some are extraterrestrial? And if so, why, Well, I think that it's it's still a very reasonable hypothesis. I don't think that it answers everything that's going on. I think that there's a very good likelihood that what we're dealing with is is much stranger even than you know,
men from another planet kind of thing like the day of the Earth. But still, nonetheless, yes, I do, I think that it's a reasonable hypothesis. Look, I mean, going back to the forties and fifties, to say nothing of our own age. If you have an object that is tracked on multiple radars, doing multiple thousands of miles per hour right angle turns and stopping on the dime, it's a reasonable question to ask is who's making them. Our own analysts asked this question back then. They wondered were the
Soviets doing it? Well, there has never been any evidence, not been on now that the Soviets made such a breakthrough, and there are arguments, yes, that we have covertly with acquired Nazi technologies, say made these breakthroughs, but again, the evidence for this is not as strong as you would think. There is evidence that we've been researching it, and it's very possible
that breakthroughs are made. On the other hand, there's a lot of evidence for the reality of an abduction phenomenon I view, and there's a lot of evidence, even aside from abductions, of people who have claimed to see beings that are not human associated with these crafts. So I think an extraterrestrial hypothesis is totally reasonable. Yeah, although not proven. I want to let people know that you can give us a call. In the last few minutes here at six two, two, seven, seven, five, three, six
nine. If you're local, or if you're not, you can call one eight sixty six five three six eleven hundred and coll In and asked questions. But getting into that piece, you talked about a lot of evidence for abduction. What is some of that evidence? Well, they're uh, you know, going back to the sixties, you have the case of Betty and Barney Hill who were driving through New Hampshire and they had a couple of hours of
missing time after seeing a UFO. They didn't know what happened. They went through a regressive hypnosis several years later and independently recalled the same type of experience being taken by ets. And of course this has been duplicated now thousands and thousands of times by many with many other people. The question comes down to how reliable is something like regressive hypnosis, although keep in mind that there are
many people who have spontaneous memories of abduction experiences. They don't all need regression. In other words, what I think is most likely is that these other beings have a very advanced ability to play games with the human memory and to play games with the human mind, and so that in most cases, the default setting is to wipe someone's memory, but you can you know, the
mind is a complicated thing. Maybe things can't get wiped completely, and so eventually things come to the surface, just like a body that's not properly disposed of, memories will come back to the surface as well. These memories show a great deal of consistency, and this is in my view, not strictly
due to this being out in the popular culture. There are a lot of details of the abduction experience that are still not widely known, that typically still come out in a wide range of regressions that are done around the world. That's one thing that shocked me is all the things that aren't documented in this field. It shocked me that when I got into this because I was skeptical about abduction, but a lot of researchers, once who I respected, did
believe in it. And then when I found the evidence that you can't find out there in a lot of books, that was shocking to me. And then I started meeting these people and seeing that there are there's physical evidence for this kind of thing exactly. It's very easy to dismiss it when you haven't talked to a bunch of people who have gone through what they believe are abduction experiences. You've done it, I've done it. That doesn't prove that it's
real. But I will say when you put a human faith on this and you actually meet these people, most of are very intelligent, or at least you've got a very good cross section of the population here. And some of these people are extremely brilliant, insightful, thoughtful people, and some of the case so I just think that they're confabulating it. These cases, like you mentioned Betty and Barney Hill, the gentleman in Maine, where there are those
four gentlemen, the Allagash abduction case. Yeah, the Allagash case, and they separately went through regression and remembered very detailed things such as what these creatures look like, how they're hands, the kind of their morphology that was very unique, nothing like anything that had been in science fiction or anything. And keeping in mind also that the large majority of these people do not seek some
publicity at all. In fact, a number of the people, including those some in the Allagash case, refused to believe that they were abducted by aliens, even though they will freely admit that these are the recollections that they have. Sometimes they'll just I think for psychological preservation, they'll say, well, you know, maybe it's some kind of crazy memory that I got. Who knows that they're not necessarily willing even to admit that they were abducted by aliens.
Nonetheless, those are their memory, So it's not a simple thing of people wanting attention and this kind of nonsense that you hear many skeptics putting out. One of the things that shocked me as well, where some of the memories people had that they didn't retrieve these in regression. I mean, they
have these memories. They remembered things without regression. Absolutely, and this makes ridiculous certain arguments by skeptics like doctor Susan Clancy over at Harvard University, who I am convinced has really not done any serious study of this at all, even though she's had the gall to write about it, calling all of the abductions essentially, you know, sleep paralysis and incorrectly remembered dreams. I think this is totally wrong. Some of many abduction cases do occur at night,
it's true, but not all, and some are very consciously recalled. So this is not an explanation. It seems like she was just countering the excellent work of another Harvard professor, John Mack, who unfortunately passed away some great work in this Harvard was embarrassed by Mac and I think they had to put someone else to counter him to preserve their respectability. All right, well, we are out of time unfortunately. Thanks for being on the show. Next
week we have Richard Laying, a UFO investigator from mo Fun. He's part of their rapid Response team. Visit our website at openminds dot tv to find more information about advertising and our news stories. Thanks for listening to Open Minds Radio on CAMFINEX. You want yours KKs, lego, folks, creatious, Welcome there. For all herself lived with this chat had stupid b u h Yeah