Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. This is your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with my good buddy Jason McClain. Jas. That's that's a weird sounding name there, friend. I tried to say it in kind of a cultural I appreciate culture. All of us appreciate culture. Is that your Nixon voice or what's going on here? I don't know what it is. It's Monday, I'm feeling kind of crazy and why yeah too, So that wasn't any particular voice. That was just me enjoying some
coffee. Yeah, I feel we got a case of facilities or something. Huh. Yes, always McClellan and mcclenn. McClellan. Well, it's good to be talking to you again, my friend. I hope you had a wonderful weekend. Absolutely always do. And I want to mention our guest. I'm very excited about our guest, who is Philip Mantle, who's a UFO
researcher from the UK. We had him on before. I think we talked about why the alien autopsy was fake, which pretty much most people know, but he's done a lot of research to detail the background to demonstrate all of this. So he's in fact, I think he's one of the most learned on that subject of anybody I know of. However, that is not what we spoke about are speaking about today. We are speaking abduction. So he's written a fiction book on alien abductions and it's a very clever title, Once
Upon a Missing Time. I love the title. But it is a compilation of the research he's done. And what's great is we get to talk to him about a lot of UK abduction cases, which people in the United States are not so familiar with because we know, you know, Betty Hill and Travis Walton and some of the American cases. So it's going to be great to talk to him about that. He's a really great researcher and cool guy, so very very excited about it. Plus, I love the UK.
I love the English. They rock. I was watching a good UK show last night, Gavin and Stacy. By the way, Jason, just in case you were curious, that's what you're watching. Yeah, I watched a lot of UK stuff. But anyhow, let's get into the news. Of course, Jason and I like to review some of the top news of the week, and Jason, what story has particularly Piaud your interest while a hunter.
Last week was a doozy for news, pretty exciting week in news, But I'd like to talk about a story here, and many of you probably remember, there was a pretty incredible sighting last year in Kentucky October of last year by a amateur astronomer, Ellen Epplin. You saw the cigar shaped UFO overhead in the sky, and he took pictures of it and made huge headlines. Then it was kind of dismissed quickly, people claiming that it was a
solar balloon or something. Not everybody bought that, but it kind of went away. Now back in the news again because Google, of all people, is claiming responsibility for that particular UFO. And here's why. So Google unveiled a project they've been working on that is trying to bring Internet connectivity to remote locations. So they've got these balloons they launch up that create this network that
allows Internet transmission in these rural areas. So this project they just announced, it's called Project Loon, and they show some videos on Project Project Loon's website shows these long balloons that look like, you know, kind of normal weather balloons that have a package on the bottom. These big long balloons don't really
look like the same object that Alan Eppling photographed. And the other interesting thing about Alan Eppling's sighting, based on his testimony, the object he observed was motionless in the sky for two hours, which doesn't really fit the behavior of a balloon. Now, we don't know exactly what he saw. We don't know exactly what Allen meant by motionless. You know, there could have been
some bobbing and difficulty determining actual motion of things. That this object he saw was extremely high in the sky, and these Project Loon balloons fly extremely high in the sky, higher than airplanes, about sixty thousand feet above Earth. So it's certainly possible that he was watching a balloon and it wasn't moving left or right. It was going up and down, catching different air currents to
remain sort of in the same place. And Google claims that these Project Looon balloons they have the ability to somewhat control them and the direction they take. They're able to vent the air in the balloons to prevent them from popping if the pressure gets too intense. So who knows, I mean, Google, The people involved in Project Lunar quite convinced that that was their one of their
balloons they were testing out before this project was announced. But many are still doubtful, right, I mean, you've got a couple of good points in that it stayed still for a long period of time. And I mean, I think the video does show what looks like a clear balloon, but it's elongated, cylindrical, whereas these Google ones looked more like a typical, you know, tear drop kind of balloon shape, right, so possibly from so
that that kind of doesn't fit. And then the two hours. But at the same time, it's a big piece of clear plastic up in the sky, which is what the video appears to be. So it's kind of a tough call on this one. I really think that even if it isn't this
balloon, it is like kind of a clear piece of plastic. And we were talking with a buddy of ours, market Antonio, who actually made some of those solar balloons that you see of and I you know, I know, we've gone to websites to look at how people make these solar balloons at their houses, and usually they use trash bags, so you could just use clear trash bags instead of black ones like most people do. And I guess it doesn't work as good as a black but so yeah, kind of interesting
though. It's always interesting when these guys come out and their attitude is so this is definitely it. It was me, And it's kind of like with not a whole lot of info, yeah, exactly. And you know, there's a lot of interesting backstory or additional information with this, this whole Allen Elflin's sighting, because you know, the object was seen in multiple states.
And no, I can't confirm this, I'm just saying what I've read, but people who charted the path of where this object or similar object could have been a different object was seen during that time line back in October. It was going or flying in a direction that isn't typical of air currents. But air currents, my understanding, fly in different directions at different altitudes, so
who knows. But and this Google says they're balloon eventually wound up in Canada, and I'm not entirely sure where in Canada, So that'd be interesting to look into as well, because I know this particular UFO that Ellen Epplin saw in Kentucky sort of moved east and people even saw it over in New York. So, but you're right, it's interesting how they can just claim with certainty that it was absolutely their object, right. Yeah, so we posted beyond that. You know, a lot of videos last week too, so
people have to check those out. Although most of them, you know, we're something mundane. A couple of them are pretty like Minneapolis I thought was interesting, and went in San Antonio that was somewhat interesting. So yeah, people have to check that out. But that's not what my story is about. I'm going to talk about users story, the big story of the week, which was Area fifty one, which is kind of funny because it's just
a little bit of a non story. It's just kind of interesting. The CIA, there's this document that actually has been released for something like ten or eleven years ago on the history of the UTWO and oxcart, which is a program to develop the SR seventy one essentially, and they talk about the histories of these programs, but they don't talk about where it was built. And in this document when they released it in the past, it's been severely had
tons of reaction. In other words, a lot of stuff blacked out, including references to Area fifty one. Although once in the past. They actually forgot to take out one of the Area fifty one references. So finally what they did was last Thursday they re released it. There was a group at George Washington University, the National Security Archives. They asked them to re examine
the secret declassification, and so they did. They sent this request, interestingly in two thousand and five, so it took like eight years for them to finally decide to declassify the majority of it. So now most of it is not redacted, including references to Area fifty one. So since it was it's a CIA document, it's essentially you can pretty much say, okay, the
CIA is finally declassifying Area fifty one in the name Area fifty one. Although you know, I did an interview with John Greenwald and he has done these Foyer requests for a long time, and he actually had a couple other documents that Area fifty one was mentioned, and one was the Atomic Energy Commission who used to own that land Area fifty one, and they said they had turned to Area fifty one over to the CIA for them to begin to build what
we know as the current secret spyplane base. The CIA eventually did turn that over to the Air Force. And another document which was kind of cool was a document from the National Reconnaissance Office and they had said that we want to fly a U two over Area fifty one, and they mentioned the name Area fifty one in order to see what the Soviets might see if they fly Sputnik over and Sputnik has cameras, because they didn't know if it did or anything.
This was in nineteen sixty two, so they can get an idea of what the Russians would see. These documents were released in just the last few years. I think John said he got the first one at least in two thousand and one. So they have been in documents, but now it's really hitting the news because essentially, you know, it is kind of more of an official kind of declassification that has gone on, and it's always been a
mystery. And I make the argument that, you know, if Area fifty one hadn't been attached to aliens and UFOs, which didn't start to happen till the late eighties, people probably would have not made a big deal about it existing. But a lot of people, I think, just because it was attached to UFOs and aliens, didn't believe it existed. I get people even now saying, oh my gosh, I couldn't believe it's real, and it's like, yeah, I you know, of course I've been telling you this
for years. Why would you doubt it? And I think just because of the alien UFO type of things. So and that's made a big, big news, which is kind of cool. Yeah, huge news, And you're right, it is funny people's reaction, you know, despite everything over so many years, people doubting that there's even a base there, and you know, if you've paid attention to researchers or anything at all, it's kind of
obvious. But the other funny thing that you and I have talked about with all the headlines and headlines are still being made today and they'll continue being made because every media outlet around the world has been talking about this story. The big mention in all these headlines are about UFOs or lack of UFOs in this say information and UFOs are specifically mentioned in this release, which is funny because people aren't mentioning that, they're saying no mention of UFOs, and there is
specifically a mention about UFOs. It's a funny mention, but saying that the U two is what caused a lot of UFO sightings and what spawned Project blue Book, which is inaccurate, as you pointed out in a story on our website. Right, Yeah, that's the angle I took gets UFOs wrong, right, because yeah, blue Book started in fifty one, and this article says area fifty one didn't start in the YouTube development until nineteen fifty five,
So the flight started in the late fifties. And we do know that the YouTube caused a lot of UFO sightings. One of the reasons because it flew higher than anything else. So if you're a commercial jet, let's say, flying at forty thousand feet and you see something flying at sixty thousand feet, you're like, what the hell is that? And nothing can fly that high. So it did creates some UFO reports. But yeah, blue Book is much older. That's a complete misstatement. And you know, we keep hearing
this from engineers too. I don't remember that any what any Jacobsen was at her name ProBook and the engineers were saying, oh, yeah, it's the alex KRT program. That's what people were seeing. There aren't really UFOs. No UFOs are seen all around the world, world and all around the country, not just in the Area fifty one area, and not just during that time, and not just during that time. So that may account for some but certainly not all. Right, interesting story nonetheless, yeah, definitely.
So it keeps things exciting, keeps things looking at this stuff. And I really appreciated I got to talk to NBC and I loved her angle, which was UFO researchers greet the Area fifty one news with a resounding duh. And her point was that, you know, UFO people have been talking about this all the time, and now it's finally acknowledged, and people doubted it was
real when they shouldn't have. And you know, there's, of course, as we all know, and as our listeners know, there's a lot of credible information in this field that just doesn't get looked at because of the giggle factor or people just kind of rolling their eyes to the whole idea of UFOs, right, those lameos. All right, Well, thank you mister Jason for talking some news with me. You bet, buddy, we'll do it
again soon. Let's just get into our interview with mister Philip Mantle. I am super excited to talk to a friend from across the pond, as they say, I've got Philip Mantle on the phone. Hello, Hello, Alejandro. Nice to speak to you. Nice to speak to you too, or actually using Skype. I mean, Skype is awesome. It makes a world much smaller, huh, it does. Indeed, were wonders of modern technology exactly. So you've got this exciting book that's come out about alien abductions.
But I guess to start off with we'll talk a little bit about your background. So you've been researching this topic UFOs and abductions for decades, right, that's right, Alejandro. You know it makes me sound really old, but I'm not honest. I started way back in the late nineteen seventies with a small organization here called the Yorkshire UFO Society. I live in the County of Yorkshire, hence the name, and that was started by Graham and Mark Bertel.
Graham went on later to edit UFO Magazine. But if I'm honest, I'd always had an interest in all things paranormal as far back as I can remember, even at school, you know, would I would be fascinated by you know, ghosts and all kinds of things, and I kind of fell into this subject when I was around about twenty years old, and you know, it gripped me then and continues to do so to this very day.
Right, Yeah, fascinating staff. When you first became with associated then or interested in UFO research, were you skeptical of the abduction phenomena or were you open to it right from the starts? And today's kind of a a bit harder to take than simply just seeing light in the sky, it is. I mean, if you think back to when I started late late nineteen seventies, around that time, there wasn't that many well known abduction accounts that had
gone on the record. We're familiar with the ones like Betty and Barley Hill, for example. There was one really two maybe really well known ones here in the UK, but there wasn't an awful lot of them, so it wasn't something that we really concentrated on, or even I concentrated on at that particular time. We were fortunate that to the north of where I live,
that is an area called the Yorkshire Dales. It's a National park, lots of hills, very beautiful, and for whatever reason, we had a lot of us full sightings coming around in and around those areas, especially around a town called Skipton in North Yorkshire, and that kept us pretty much occupied. So there wasn't a lot of thoughts or even involvement in what has become,
you know, to be known as the alien abduction phenomena. Although you know we had come across it, it wasn't a big thing in those days, so that tended to come a little bit later. So you kind of got to follow the phenomena as it came to fruition. I mean, as the cases began to pile up, that's right. I mean a colleague of ours who sadly no longer with us. He was a police sergeant called Tony Dodd, and Tony had a close encounter case again from this particular area that I've
just mentioned in North Yorkshire. A very peculiar one and regressive hypnosis is used and that kind of sparked the interest. But even today, Alejandro, you know yourself, that is still a bit of a stigma attached to the subject. Certainly in those days the stigma was far far greater then than it is today. People were very reluctant to speak to you in the first instance, and let alone go on the record or go public with with their accounts in
any way, shape or form. And it wasn't until much later that things kind of started to change. It's difficult to say why it changed. My opinion is that we had people joined the subject who gave it much more credibility. One of those was the late Dr John Mack, for example, and in the UK we had the man from the Ministry of Defense, Nick Pope.
Nick now lives in the United States. I tended to give the subject an air of credibility, and rightfully so in my opinion, you know, Harvard Professor Dr Mark Man from the Ministry Nick Pope, and so it kind of almost legitimized this area of research. And slowly, but surely, you know, more people came forward with their accounts. There were a small number that, for whatever reason, were prepared to go on the record and risk the stigma that may come with it, or whatever came with it. They
felt it important enough to do that and take on whatever came. And again, you know, I was just fortunate that you know, my name and my telephone number sort of became known. I joined the British UFO Research Association and became a director with them, and you know, in those days there was no Internet. It was the telephone or the old passioned way of a
letter, and you know, things started to come my way. And I also got to know another gentleman again who sadly no longer with us, Bod Hopkins, of course, and Bud and I met and on a number of occasions he came and stayed with me. I hosted a number of conferences and Bud was one of the keynote speakers, and we exchanged a lot of information again across the pond, as you mentioned, and just got fascinated with it,
or more and more fascinated, i might say. And you know, once you got to interview some of these people and speak to them firsthand rather than just read about it, it really did leave me scratching my head. That's probably why I've got a bold patch, but you know it still does today. And so kind of gradually got into this particular field, Alejandro.
So you were researching all of this during the time of the Travis Watton event, and just to remind people, you know, this is when the Laggers in nineteen seventy five, so the UFO, one of them approached it and then went missing for five days and I had this experience on board that he recalls, how was that, you know, being a researcher in the UK, What was it like finding out about that case? And what were you guys thinking about that case? Well, I mean in that case and others,
you know, really hit the headlines. We had not the same type of incident, but just a few years after that, we had an incident here again, just happened in the county where I live. And although there wasn't a lot of people involved, it was one person. It was a
police constable. His name was Sir Alan Godfrey. Alan was on police patrol duty in his car at the time in a town called todd Maden and believe it or not, he'd been looking for some stray cows all night, hadn't found them, and they thought I'll take all asked look before I finished my shift. It'd spoken to an officer on foot patrol in the town. It
was almost deserted the early hours of the morning. He took one last drive up through the high street and there's a mill there and he noticed these lights up ahead on the road. As he got closer and realized it wasn't just lights, there was a big diamond shaped object blocking the road. He had a bank of panels across the middle and the bottom half seemed to be spinning.
So Alan stopped his police patrol car. He tried to radio to the base, couldn't get through, so he took out his notepad and drew it. The next thing Alan can remember, He's been several hundred yards further down the road driving the patrol car, looked behind him and this thing had gone. He turned the car around, went back and there was a dry patch on the road that it had been raining during the night. And when Alan got back to the police station he was late. He couldn't account for that.
The police issue boots were also split, and he had a burn on one of his foots that wasn't there the night before. The reason I mentioned Alan Godfrey in connection with Travis Walton, it happened just a couple of years
later. For those that don't know, the Travis Walton case was made into the movie Fire in the Sky. Now, before that particular movie got the green light, the production company also spoke to Police Constable Alan Godfrey and they came over to England to meet him, and it was a toss up between him and Travis Walton on watch the movie was made. Yeah, I mean
Alan later went under hypnosis, an abduction scenario emerged. I've seen the tape of the recording, and he eventually it went public, you know, with permission of his police bosses, if you like, the Chief Constable and I remember it, you know, when it happened, it was a huge story. And you know, I've met Alan many times is what we call down to policeman. I wouldn't have liked to have come across him in his official
capacity. You know, he was no nonsense. He had several commendations to his name, you know, that he received in the line of duty. Unfortunately, a few years later he was he was injured in the line of duty and I had to retire on medical grounds. But it was just fascinating, you know. He was a gentleman, highly regarded by his his his fellow officers. The local community had no interest in the subject. But like Travis, you know, they had no real interest in the subject. They
were about their everyday work. I'm fortunate enough to have met travels Travis a few times and Mike Rodgers, one of his colleagues there, and Alan to this verny Day has never changed his story, never embellished it elaborated, and he said, you know, hired a stone in my hand, Philip, I could have thrown it at that thing and it would have gone clug you know, as you know, our police officers don't carry guns, so it's the it's the it's the British police Saman's equivalent, rather than shoot it.
But and you know, Alan himself just scratches his head and you know, I can only he said, I can only tell you what I know and that and that you make of it what you will. And that really did make the headlines and made people sit up and take notes. But in mind, of course, if p. C. Godfrey had seen someone you know, breaking the law stealing a car for example, or whatever his testimony was, actually you know, could stand up in court and he could put you
in prison, right you know. So here's a man who said, well, I encountered this peculiar vehicle one morning blocking the road and this happened to me. But yeah, people don't believe him, so that seems kind of strange to me, right, And I can see the similarities were a down to earth person not interested in the topic, having these extraordinary events and then
the story being consistent the entire time. Absolutely, I mean, you know, the difference being with Travis, he had, you know, other witnesses to the initial event, his colleagues working in the woods with him at the time. PC Godfrey was on his own, but he did have some physical evidence that split boot and the burn on his foot and things like that. And also there was another similarity, not not totally but unbeknown to Alan Godfrey.
The hills around Todd Meden are quite steep and there was three other officers at the same night on the hills above the town looking for stolen motorcycles. And there was three of them to two male and one female officer, and they witnessed her a UFO during the night heading towards the town. You know, Allan was totally unaware of this. And again two out of the three
have spoken up. I've met one of them. They've told their story and they have no idea what they saw, you know, in the like, in their official due they've seen just about everything, but they hadn't seen anything like that on that particular evening. Are there other cases that you know aren't as popular over here in the United states that were some early credible abduction cases
out there. There is indeed, I mean, you know, again similar time frame to Travis Walton and Alan Godfrey, different part of the country, this time down further down south of England, in a place called Aveley in Essex. And it was a gentleman called John Day with his wife Sue and their children, and they'd been out to visit family one evening. And again
this is if you remember a different time compared to today's modern technology. And you know, Aveley in Essex is only I think something like thirty or forty miles from London. It's not the middle of nowhere. We're driving home and they had this they had a almost encounter sighting and a strange thing happened.
They went through a green mist as they entered the village where they lived, and the car seemed to bounce or bump, and so day John's wife turned to him and said, is everyone here the radio malfunction in the car When they got in, John had been looking forward to watching a particular TV show and it had finished in those days. If here in the UK the TV finished at a particular time in the evening, that was it. If you missed it. It was finished gone, and you know, there was a
big period of missing time that they could not account for. When they went to sleep, they had these nightmares, these visions of what happened, and it all spontaneously came back. It's called the Ably case because of the location it took. There's a lot more to it. I'm trying to condense it. Here's John and Sue remembered most of what happened. They had had some
hypnosis later, but they've already remembered most of the encounter. And I met John, he would not let anyone go near his children, and never has. They've never spoken up, I think, to his credit. And one of the things that sometimes happens with a close encounter witness not all the time. Sometimes they're things changed. I mean John and Sue both became interested in what we would term today green issues, environmental issues, which one of a
big thing here in those days. John was a carpenter by nature, that's what he did for a profession, but he also became much more artistic. Events when I met him many years ago now, he was making the most beautiful ornamental dolls houses, and he put it right down to this encounter. You know, his outlook, his abilities, if you like, certainly his artistic abilities changed the the results. And it's you know, it was well investigated, not by me, by by colleagues and mine and I met John
and an interview with him at a length. So it's a well known case, but you know, probably just well known in the UK rather than overseas. And it's a fascinating event. And you have some long and a long conversation with John about it, and it's it's you mentioned that at the beginning of the show. I've written a new book that's called Once Upon a Missing Time. It's work of fiction, and part of the the encounter is there.
It's you know, it is made up of real cases. Part of it is based on John and Sudet's encounter way back in the late seventies in Aveley in Essex, especially the part with the green myst and that kind of thing. And you know, absolutely fascinating. It's interesting too that you mentioned the change in the art that this gentleman did because the allegash abduction tonight teen
seventy six. Poor people who went through that, they said that after their experience they became they were already somewhat artistic, but their art had changed also absolutely. I mean again. There was a young man I interviewed at length several occasions in Wales at a place called Petheli in the northwest of the country. And I've called him Nigel Matthews. That's not his real name, but his first name is Nigel, and he was only a young man at the
time. And Nigel was walking home one night from a friend's house quite a rural location. An upperhead in a field is all light, and part of him said I wanted to take a look, but there was another part of me said don't go anywhere near. Anyway, he went and had a look from a strange object in the field. He was approached from behind, somebody
grabbed him. He remembers coming around on this object. He was laying on a table of some description, and that these particular looking, fun peculiar looking humanoids were there, and the Aigel had a walkman with him, you know, the old tape recorder, and they took that from him and placed it in this panel and said it was the most bizarre thing that here he was in this otherworldly environment with this rock music blaring out. Anyway, after the
encounter. He managed to stagger home and he lived with his mum. At the time, his mother he had no hypnosis. He told her everything that happened, cut in a long story short. When I interviewed him, I think it was on the second or third occasion, he admitted to me that and he swore into secrecy. At the time, Alejandro I had was not to tell anyone. He became he would write spontaneous poetry, and he had
no talent for it before, no interest. And this is a gentleman, a young man with long hair, denim jacket, pretty much like I used to be when I was the same age. Liked his rock music, and he was working in a local hotel and said, sometimes for lift, I'll just have to pick up a napkin and the poetry will be in my head and I have to write it down. And again he put it all down
to the close encounter. He said that whatever that was, this part, this, this spontaneous poetry, it was an artistic talent that he never had, not even the slightest inkling, and no interest in it. You know, I like rock music, and whatever you say about rock music with the greatest respect, I don't think you'd ever call it poetry, you know, And that was just one of several who had this. He also, you know, became aware of interest in environmental issues and things of that nature.
So whether you know whether there's something there, whether those things are telling us something, I don't know, but it is something I've come across from time to time now when I think it's interesting. Along with his artistic stuff, is that doctor Leo Sprinkle had done some research and psychological inventories years ago,
and he found that there was also a change in their spiritual perspectives. In fact, he found that which was surprising to him, many of them had much more they believed in reincarnation after their experiences where they really hadn't thought of it or had more traditional views beforehand. Have you noticed that also maybe changed in their spiritual outlooks? Absolutely? Absolutely. I mean, there was one lady who lived near the town of Northampton. Her name is Elsie Olkinson.
Somebody Elsie's no longer with us, But not only did she become interested in spiritual things, Elsie became a spiritual healer. Wow. And again without any hesitation, she said, you know, a direct result of her encounter, and Elsie was an educated lady. She was married to a very high ranking police officer. She was no one's fool. She was a lovely, lovely
lady. I tutored a college course on UFOs, believe it or not, for a short while, and Elsie was gracious enough to come and speak in front of the students, to give them, you know, the opportunity to speak to someone who'd you know, come face to face with the phenomenon. And she said it was to her, the whole event was a spiritual encounter. She called it the UFOs and and what have you. But so what I did on the back of that, I asked the small number of abductees
it's not a scientific test in any way. I picked them at round them and I said, I asked them that very question. She was like, what do you believe? What do you think is the nature and origin of your experience? You know, I'm an outsider looking in I've not had these experiences you have. And there were a couple that said, definitely, definitely, this was beings from another world. However, to my surprise, and thember of them said no, to me, it was some kind of spiritual
experience. The majority, of course, you said, I don't know. There was even one lady from the Manchester area of northwest England, Linda. She was with her daughter at the time. They were in some fields behind where she lived, literally and I saw hers day picking wild flowers when they saw this most bizarre object coming down towards them. And she described when she looked at this object, it was all and she doesn't know really why she describes it this way, it's the best way, and she said it was
almost biblical. You know, I'd never really come across that till I until I spoke to Linda. And so make of it what you will. And so that you know, I've met Leo as well, doctor Sprinkle, and I think it's an area of research Alejandro, that that has been neglected, and I maybe you know, that's something that others may concentrate on in the future. It's not not just what has happened to them, but what HAPs to the people afterwards, right, you know, we'll wait and see.
I agree with you, and I want to talk more about that. But but but first I want to talk about you know, kind of your book you write. The book is everything that happened to the character and book based off of real cases. Absolutely. I mean I think there's only some of the minor characters in the book that are not based on real people, and
that includes the UFO researchers and so on. The actual encounter is made up of three or four genuine, real life close encounters here in the UK, I mentioned John and Sue Day adrien Essex is partly based on what happened to them. And well, you know, someone said, well why, you know, why why I write a book of fiction about alien abductions? Well a number of reasons really. Well, as we've just been discussing, when when we when we talk about or write about abductions, we tend to focus
on what happened to the individuals at the time. You know, I was driving so and so I saw this, you know this happened or remember this. Very little is known about what happened afterwards, how they cope, to whom did they turn, to whom did they tell? How did they deal with the the experience? So and also, if we're honest, there are a number of the skeptical people out there who would have us believe that the
abductees are all crazy or looking for attention or trying to make money. Or are liars or deluded or whatever, when in fact quite the opposite is true. So one of the reasons for writing a book of fiction was, in my opinion, to put the abduction experience in the correct lights. These are normal people and they're not, you know, crazy, They're about their everyday task. Mind sentence around a couple, Alan and Pamela Morrison and their daughter.
She's a teacher in a local school, she's a social worker. They have a teenage daughter. Her interests you know, music, pop music and boys and her friends. I set it in nineteen ninety because it's a time when again we had a lot of reports here in the UK. I set it in North Yorkshire again because we had a lot of things in that particular area, and a lot of the book deals with how they cope. You
know, they first turned to a family member. I mean again, you know this is out of my experience and interviewing people, and a lady doesn't live too far from from me. Jane had a number of encounters down the years, and the first person she turned to was her family and they just were bemused by it all, you know that, no disrespect. There were just a normal, average family with a normal job. What can I do? So the next thing, Jane thought, well, I must be going
off my head, you know, So she turned to her doctor. He prescribed the traquitizers, which they did to all women of her age, and in that particular time period she threw loads in the bin because they didn't work. And eventually, after a long period of frustration, she found me and turned to me, and you know, she was just grateful that I would sit there and actually listen and not past comments, not smirk, not laugh, And you know, I'm still in contact with her now. And this
is you know, after many, many years. So you know, my book Once Upon a Missing Time tries to deal with all this and to show that whatever this phenomenon is, it can happen anywhere, anytime, to anyone. It's difficult to deal with, right, And you mentioned anywhere. I
mean a lot of people feel. I guess that there's a core kind of experience, that there are similarities in the abduction experience for the most part that people report, and those similarities are similar here in the United States and out there. Would you agree with that, and then how would you kind of describe what is the core experience? Absolutely? I mean again. There was
a gentleman from the United States, Dr Thomas Bullard as Eddie Bullad. He conducted a study of hundreds of published abduction accounts, and he broke the experience down into its various components, and they seem to fall on order. You know, each case doesn't have all the components. It may have some, some may have so many, some may have less. But nonetheless they seem
to follow the same ininverted Commas pattern. And that didn't matter where they were reported, which country, by what type of person, their age group, their their ethnic background, their education, whatever, didn't seem to make any difference whatsoever. One of them, of course, he termed doorway amnesia for words to that effect. So they see the UFO, they may even see the beings outside of it, but they have no recollection of how they get
on board this thing. And that crops up time and time and time again. So it's just what it always follows the pattern. One of the other things picked up by a colleague of mine called Ken Phillips was the emotional content, and it can be different types of emotions. He also goes back to a study by and done by Alvin Lawson and Alvin got some volunteers and put them under hypnosis and got them to invent a fictitious alien abduction scenario, which
was you know, quite illuminating. But the one major thing that was missing from it was this emotional content. You know, it was just I am a robot. I will tell you this day. It was you know, it was metronomic. There was no kind of emotion whatsoever. But I mentioned David Thomas in Perfeli, north West Wales. Want to talk to David about his job, boy, his rock musical, his girlfriend. He was just like any normal young man we'll talk to about his experience. His whole manner
changed. The experience had terrified him, and you know you could see the emotional content there when he spoke about it. And the same with Alan Comfrey. You know, Alan wasn't prying. I don't think Alan Pixy Godfrey with frightened of anything or anybody. But he talked about things that he could see. There's the you know, he could hear the clubs in his head trying to figure it out. There was that emotional content there and with the fictitious
ones, it's not there. So it doesn't matter where you are in the world, who you are, what your background is. There is some kind of commonality there. And again I think it's still an area of study that has, you know, needs needs, needs more work on it. When you talk about the emotional content, I guess maybe we could talk about some of those emotions. So like I think the obvious one is probably fear and terror. Yeah, I mean, I've come across a wide range of different
emotions. David definitely, David Thomas was quite literally terrified. I mean, David did not have any regressivef it noticed. We remembered every second of his encounter, told his mom everything when he got there. Now, the follow
it's quite a rural place where they lived. His mud went to the local library, found one UFO book, and she found a mention of a UFO group in Oxford, which is a long way from northwest Wales, probably not a long way by American standards, but in our little country it was. Oh she might. Managed to find a phone number for them and rang them up, and they said, right, we'll get back to you and we'll
arrange to come and see you. So the following night after his encounter, Davy was so frightened she literally put him in the back of the car drove to Oxford. He now started to snow heavily, but she still carried on and arrived at this gentleman's house unannounced, and they come out and found Davy cowering in the back of the car. Now, eventually David had to have
hypnotherapy to relieve himself of the nightmares that this encounter had caused. And I wrote a non fiction book, My first ever book was called Without Consent, and it dealt with missing time and abduction cases here in the UK on David's in that book, and I sent him a copy and you know, he wrote back and thanked me for it. It was five years before he plopped
up the courage to read it. It scared him so much. I you know, I apologized to him later because I asked him if we could visit the scene, the location of where this happened, and we did, and I have a photograph of David standing by these trees with a gap in it, and this gap in the trees looked into the field where the object was.
And it's only when I had the photographs developed He's actually stood there, rigid with fear, and I didn't realize that at the time, it was quickly pulled the car or to take a couple of pictures, and you know, we were gone, and you know, and I apologize and putting him through that lace, you know, I was I was oblivious to that fact. And so, yes, there is that, there's you know, there's but there's a whole range of emotions. But David was certainly terrified. What
is maybe another common emotion that perhaps you were not expecting. I think, I don't know if you call it an emotion, but I know a number of abductees felt, I don't know if you call it a need if you like, or a compassion to speak out. You know, they didn't necessarily know what had happened to them all. They weren't convinced that it was one theory or another. They just felt that for some reason they had to go
public. They had to let other people know about this experience. It was important, and they also felt a need or a compassion to speak to others who had had similar experiences. And as a result of that, one of the first, if not the first UFO witness support group was founded here in
the UK. I think it's still going. And so there was that that compassion to do that, and people like else Olkinsinoa mentioned from Northampton, and she certainly did that faced quite a bit of ridicule because it was only a tiny tiny communities where she lived. Everybody knew her, but she just felt that that, you know, she had to do it. There was a
some kind of compulsion to make her do that. It wasn't for the money, of the fame or anything like that, you know, because none of that comes right, and so you know, that seems to be an underlying factor in some cases, not all of them, but something drives them only that they believe that it's important that people know about these experiences, irrespective of the stigma that comes with it, and that happens time and time again.
That is really interesting that you say that, because one of the things that I wanted to ask about when we were talking about the terror is post traumatic stress syndrome, which a lot of people experience, of course with major trauma, and I think I've seen that in some of these people, and I would I would guess that you might have also. But one of the best ways to treat that is talk therapy. It's people getting together in groups and
talking. So it's interesting that they kind of automatically have this feeling to do that. Absolutely. I mean again, another lady who was featured heavily in my book Once Upon a Missing Time, and she was also a kind of an unofficial consultant on it. I mean, when I was writing things, I would email us and just make sure I've got this right. And her
name is called Rosalind Reynolds. Rosallyn's encounter happened in nineteen eighty two, and many years back, I used to organize conferences and one of the conferences I had, someone in the audience asked, you know, you know, we talked about abductions. I said, you know, I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth. Now. Just by chance, Rosalind was in the audience. She'd never spoken in public about this before, to the rest of
mine, had never spoken about it again. And I asked if she would take the stage, and she did, and she spoke only for about half an hour, and she told what had happened to her. She took a few questions, and then in the interval a lady approached me and she's, as you know, Philippa, you know, I'm I'm actually a trained psychiatric nurse. That's what I do for a living. And she's looking at that lady, and I've spoken to her. She said, I think she's suffering
from post traumatic stress. She has all the symptoms for it. We're trying to recognize that. I think she said she'd worked with people who've been in conflict or you know, or victims of crime or whatever, something along those lines, so you know, she noticed it. She was a you know, a trained professional. I just thought Ronnie was a little bit nervous, but you know, she's, no, it's not nervous. It has all
the hall marks of post traumatic stress. And you know, and you know fair enough, and like I said, with with with with the girl I mentioned called Jane. She gone to her family first and then the doctor and with me, and when I met her, all she wanted to do was talk, you know, So I just sat there and left it to it.
And she found that very therapeutic. So whether she, you know, was also suffering from something along those lines, maybe, you know, I'm not a trained professional in that area, but I think it's certainly very it's very good for them to speak to others, and you know, people like myself as well. At least we'll listen, right and getting to the book. By the way, I want to mention that I love the title Went Upon a Missing Time. It's very clever and I love I think it's really
cool. But with the book, do you feel that you were able to, as a novel or nonfiction maybe even get into some areas or at least express some aspects of the abduction phenomena you wouldn't have been able to otherwise. I think so, you know, you know, if you go to any of the conferences or read the magazines, which you know, I encourage people to do exactly that. When you read about a close encounter, you'll read
it. You know, mister Smith was you know, walking his dog and he saw this, this happened, and that's about you know, and you know, you'll go through all the nitty gritty of what he encountered, what he remembered, maybe hypnosis or not whatever. You may even mention other cases that had similar descriptions and so forth. But we forget when we do that that we're dealing with a you know, a human being here, a person who has a life, has family, feelings, emotions, a job mate,
you know, probably you know, so what happens. You know what happens to them? And that's what I tried to highlight in the books. You know, yes they have this bizarre encounter. What happens to them afterwards? You know? Who did they turn to? How do they as a couple, because it's but there's two of them. You know, it's stressful enough when you when you're married at times, you know, and you've got a family, it can be very stressful, and you're working and then something
like this happens. How do you cope? What do you do? Who do you turn to? Who can you trust? Who can you not trust? You know what would happen if you went public with it? And you
know what happens when they do go public? By accident? And again, as I mentioned some of the skeptics, the most vocal of which used to be Philip Class Again Philip's no longer with us, but when he couldn't figure out a particular incident, it would just call them all higher as simple as that will I didn't I say, you know, there may be one or two in there somewhere that you know are not the genuine article that happens in all walks of life. But you know, in my research, I haven't
come across that very often. These are genuine people with a genuine puzzle to be answered and not lying. They're not looking for publicity. I mean, I've had a lady just last week contact me. She only lives local to where I am, and she her encounters started when she was four year old and lasted until she was thirty years old. She's never told anyone. Wow, I'm the first person. And all I did was listen. I would cast any comments. I haven't made any comparisons or made any you know,
silly statements. I've just listened, and you know, and I find that, you know, very reassuring. And but she's never same age as me or thereabouts, and she's never told a soul. She's kept this to herself for all these years. And you know, so I've tried to put the abductee and the experience and what I think is the correct life as I put in the in the forward. If you're looking for answers to the to the alien abduction phenomena, this is not the book to read. You know.
It showed you how it happens, how it can happen, to whom it happens, how in my experience, some of them have dealt with it. They all deal with it different. Of course, this is, you know, is one way of it. It's one scenario. There's a UFO researcher in it. It happens to be called Philip, and people think that's based on me. It is not based on a two colleagues of mine sort of amalgamated together. So you know, it is based on real people. These
are their experiences. There is a little bit of artistic license he had to be put in there. I have to be honest. It is a normal after all. But the bulk of it is made up from my research, Mike, my talking to people, my traveled I don't know how many miles you know doing this work. Spent countless hours, and you know, I just wanted to put it in the paint, paint the correct picture of Alejandro, put it in the right in the right format, and I think,
you know, one of the ways of doing it. I'm not saying it's the best way or the only way. I thought was a work of fiction. And you know, I'm pleased with the result. I think, you know, when you say no answers, it's honest, because really we don't have a whole lot of answers, which makes it kind of difficult for these people because when it comes to resolution or having some feeling of closure, there
really isn't much there to do for them that way. Absolutely not. I mean again, you know, I asked the small group of abductees what they thought was behind it, and they all differed pretty much. The young man David I mentioned, he said, well, it must have been the Russians. Philip, he didn't really believe that, but it was his way of rationalizing it. It was a way of putting that in a pigeon hole and putting it behind him. He felt comfortable by you know, this was a
bad thing that happened to him. You know, the bad people at the time were the Soviets. You know, there was all the threat from the Soviet bloc and we're all on standby or whatever, so you know, it didn't make sense to him, but it was a way of him dealing with it. Call it. You know, it must have been the Russians. Didn't believe that in a thousand years, but it was his way I rationalize
it. And I spoke to abductees who tell you, I think it was this and I think that if that's what they're happy with, who am I to say different? And know that, you know, when I entered this subject, I entered it for a very personal reason, and that was to find answers for me. You know, some people said, was it a quest? Was it this? Now? I don't think it's anything as grand as that. I was always the type of young man who saw a button that says, don't press, I would want to press it to find out
what happened. And the saying was with the UFO phenomena. And I always said, you know, down the years, I've had many of my questions answered, but not all of them yet. And when the day comes that I've had all the questions answered and I'm satisfied with that. If I believe that the answer to the UFO phenomenon is X, and nobody else in the world agrees with me, well I don't really care, because I didn't really enter into it for any everyone else. You know, I haven't got to
that conclusion yet. I think there's still a lot of work to do, and certainly in this field as well, and the personal as we're talking about, you know, doctor Leo Sprinkle and others I think there's still a lot of works to be done. We tend to concentrate on what the people tell us about what happened, but not what happened afterwards or about the individuals themselves, you know. And I think it's an area of research that could be
quite fruitful. Right. Do you think there's any physical evidence that could possibly be extracted from these experiences? Well, there's certainly a physical stimulus or stimuli. There's something that sparks it tough, and there's many arguments and discussions as to what that may or may not be. But regarding the physicality of the subject. When I spoke to John Day, John was with his wife sueing Aveley in Essex. I asked him that very same question, John, you
know, was this a real physical encounter? You know? And it's a statement he made that has always stuck with me, and I'm not sure I understand it even now. And he said, Philip, not only me as a person, but we as a species do not have the ability to describe what these experiences are. He said, But I'll give you an example. This is the best way I can describe it. If you go to a movie set, you can look at it. You can see it. They touch it and knock on it and it'll go, you know, not knock.
But if you look behind it, it's all an illusion. M hm. That's how he described it. And then some years later one of the conferences I hosted, our keynote speaker was Wickly Strieber, and after his presentation, someone in the audience asked him a similar type of question. And again, it's just a phrase. He may have changed his mind since then. This is a few years ago. It's a phrase that always stuck with me, and it came to what we know about the subject. What Weakley said
is we're learning to ask better of questions. Now I interpreted that, you know, we've asked certain questions, we're finding information, but we're still a long way to go. We're learning to ask better questions. And for me personally, I think that's still a very relevant statement today. Right. Yeah, I've heard that too, and I definitely makes you thinking it's a good thing. I mean, it means that we're learning and there's there's still much
more to learn. Absolutely. I mean, you know, if you look at any area of research outside of youuthology, some of it took centuries. You know and upology to me is still only in its infancy. Who knows? And if you again, if you're a study of the subject as a whole, if you look, you know where it began in nineteen forty seven with Kenneth Hanelds. We'll take that as a point of origin, and you
look at where the subject is now. It is very different to those early days that you know, the subject has evolved down the decades and it's continuing to evolve. So you know, I'm fifty five years of age now, God willing, I'll live another few decades. It'll be interesting to see at that point in time where you know how the phenomenon and the way it's reported and the types of things that come our way have changed, have evolved if
you like, because it's certainly changed a lot from Kenneth Arnold's day. And I guess my final question will be, because we're running low on time series, is the implant phenomena? I mean, how do you feel do you have you found implants out there? Do you believe that to be a credible kind of physical piece to all of this? Well, again, how you know, we talk about the subject being in its infancy, you know, the aspects within the subject, you know, are still in the womb,
let alone in its infancy. Right, that's this area of implants. The main proponents of it have been doctor Rogerlere and general Simms. Of course, in the United States. I have to be honest hand on how it's not something we've come across here in the UK to any great degree. People have made certain claims, but it's different here. You know, our medical system is different here to the UK. You cannot walk in a place and pay I don't know, fifty dollars and have an X ray for example. You
can't do that, you know. So some of these people maybe be genuine, but trying to authenticate that is a very difficult matter. But again, just recently I had a contact from a lady who said, you know, I believe my my my friend has an implant. She lived a long way from where I do, so put her in touch with somebody much much closer to home, and I've left them to it in that respect, someone who can help her sort of locally. So you know, you know that that's
even before it's sympancy. You know, I've met Dr Delear several times and Geryl Simms and they are sincere in their work. And again it's when we talked about the subject evolving. If you go back to the to the early abduction cases around about Betting, Barney Hill, Time and others, you know, im plants never existed. You know, there was never any mention of it or any any indication of it anywhere in the world. And it's it's
a relatively new aspect of the whole subject matter. And again it's you know, you know, I'm still in touch with with doctor Lear and Deryl. It's something I keep an eye on. It's not something I've come a lot, come across a lot, you know, personally in my area of research. And again, it will be interesting to see how that develops. Well, we are out of time. Thank you so much for being on the show. This conversation has been fascinating and it's been a great pleasure. Your
website is beyond Risweld dot com. Right, that's correct, And the new book is Once Upon a Missing Time, And I hope the listeners enjoy if they obtain a copy. Yeah, definitely, because I I think it's great research that you've done. It encompasses, you know, decades of work in this field, and as you've shown on this interview, you just are a wealth of information. Well, thank you very much. Thank you so much, and you have a great resk of your day. It's already evening out
there. It's early morning here, it is, indeed, and it's been a great pleasure speaking to you. Thank you all right. Thank you to mister Mantle for joining us today. I love talking to him. When an interesting talk and some really interesting UK cases, you know, stuff that I don't hear about much, and probably some of you haven't either, so very
much appreciated. I recommend that everybody go pick up his book, Once Upon a Missing Time and actually was printed by Richard Dolan and Richard Dolan's Press. We didn't even mention that before. But thank you for joining us once again. I will be back next week. No more secret missions at least as far as I know. And of course check out on our YouTube are spacing out where they talk about more news, and then also the website where we've
got the news all the time every day, Openminds dot Tv. Check us out on Twitter, check us out on Facebook, and also check out some of the other videos that we've been doing. We got We're talking earlier about Area fifty one and John Greenwald, we actually interviewed him, so that's a lot of fun. And we interviewed the gentleman at the National Atomic Museum in Las Vegas, who has an Area fifty one display there, So you have
to check that out if you're sober in Vegas. If not, just don't go there and fall all over to displays or throw up in the museum or anything. So stay away if you're two loaded, but maybe if you're hungover and you want something to do in the morning. But thank you for joining us. I also want to thank the people who make the music because I appreciate it so much. Our opening music made by Caleb Hanks, and our close minute music made by two Earth Minutes. Those guys rock. Literally,
we're gonna hear him rock in a second. Otherwise, adio smooth, chuck chos, and we'll talk to you next week. People s