Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am Alejandro Rojas and I am joined with the super Duper. I used this one before. I like super Duper. Jason McClellan, you can recycle super Duper. I'll be super due for today. Yeah, you like super Duper too. You don't always like some of the ones that I use, and I wouldn't yeh fower you so I don't. I don't blame you for that, but yeah, some some are less super Duper, but definitely so a lot of cool stuff
going on in UFO News in the last week. We've had a lot of really popular stories and I want to discuss those. And then Jason just posted a really cool one today, so we'll talk about that in a minute. But first I want to tell you about our guest this week, who is a great one. His name is Joseph Frasconia. He actually goes by Pat so Pat, and he's the lawyer for John Burrows and Jim Peniston, who
were two of the primary witnesses in the Rendelsham Forest. So these are guys who were in the Air Force in the UK at these bases that were released by the US Air Force, and you know saw the sho Jim says he actually went up and touched it, and apparently John feels he had some interaction with it as well, but he feels his memory has been screwed up, and he also feels he's suffering some medical issues that may have been a result
of this experience. However, the government has said, you guys weren't in the Air Force during that time, when certainly they were. Finally the government admitted that and then says, well, we don't have your medical record. Sorry. It's a really weird story that possibly these records were classified and some
crazy stuff. So we're going to talk to their lawyer, who's going to share with us, you know, the struggles he's had getting their records and how odd and mysterious this has been for him and his feelings on the whole thing. So really cool stuff, wild stuff, very cool stuff, wild and crazy stuff. Yeah. So I think this is a really important story
that's kind of unfolding here. And of course we wrote about it last week and some documents that John Burrows had found were kind of the UK government kind of agreed and said, you know, they could have had had a long exposure to UAP which is their turn for UFO radiation. Very very local.
It is. There's so much going on with the story. It continues to change, not the details of it, but you know the government and you know the military's take on things, and I think it just points out that, you know, they'd be much better off if instead of lying and continue continuing to try to keep up with the lies they've created. They can't do it. They're digging a hole and it keeps coming and biting them in the ass. So moral of the story is, don't lie governments. Come on,
Yeah, quit lion, come on, don't be that way. Come on, you're busting my Yeah, well they're getting busted pretty soon because the truth is coming out. You're best of my Canoli's over here, all right. So the news. Let's go over the news because there's lots of cool stuff. And you know, I haven't been able to fully get briefed on the news from this morning, but you have what appears to be a pretty exciting story from Colorado. Yeah, there is, and this is something that
started developing on Friday. And what we have here is multiple UFOs over Colorado, Breckenridge actually, and so what's going on here? Is many people. Multiple witnesses saw three UFOs and these are just, you know, kind of unexciting UFOs. They're just white, bright dots in the sky, which could really be anything. But the interesting thing with these UFOs they were seen reportedly
by potentially hundreds of people, including news reporters and police officers. The police officers say that they are investigating this, and the local NBC affiliate there contacted the FAA, and the FAA as a Friday said that they hadn't received any reports of anything unusual in the sky, but the police contacted nor AD and NORAD said that they didn't detect anything, but they were conducting an investigation as
well. So these mysterious aerial objects over Colorado are being investigated by the local Sheriff's department as well as nor AD. Now, the most interesting description we have here, I think comes from the actual news reporter from the NBC affiliate there, because he sat with the news camera and observed this object for a long period of time, and the way he describes these objects, it's pretty
fascinating. So, all, how do you know, I mean, we have like a dot in the sky that could be anything, and in most cases, especially with something like this that seems to be hovering or not really moving with any great speed in the sky. It could be a milar balloon, and that would make it appear very bright, so you'd be able to see it. It'd be visible very high up. It could be a weather balloon, many things. But the reporter says he doesn't believe it's a weather
balloon, and he doesn't believe it's a drone. And that's another culprit of a lot of these sightings. And here's why, because he says you'd sit there and could watch it for like fifteen minutes without it would move at all, not slowly drifting, but completely motionless. Then and this is his quote, and then you would see a flash of light and they would take off
across the edge of the mountain ridge behind me. Wow. So these objects displayed incredible flight capabilities, were seen by hundreds of people, including police officers saw these objects too, So we have really interesting objects. And reportedly these objects or similar objects were also seen in Utah the previous day. Yeah, I citing spanning over multiple days and when the NBC affiliate reported that I the only thing I remembered hearing about Utah the previous day was the fireballs that were
reported there. But when I looked at the move On UFO database, there was actually a witness who reported seeing three small objects in the sky just like this, And the witnesses in Colorado reported seeing these things moving triangle into a triangle formation and then moving into a straight line. So these three lines, three objects in a line, and that's what the witness in Utah reported to move On that they saw these three objects in a line, just three one
after another. So it's pretty interesting and just hovering in the sky and then zipping off at incredible speed. Yeah, really weird. The state director in Utah just posted something this morning in Facebook and she was saying that, yeah, this is a developing story that she thinks is really cool and they have a lot of witnesses and this is going to be really interesting. So I
don't even know if she tied it into the Colorado thing yet. So that's really cool, really weird, And you know, I've seen similar stuff in Colorado. I used to be a move on out there. I was an investigator and these things were reported a lot, but like you said, hard to determine if they're a balloon or not, but I saw something like this once. One of these things cruising across the sky at a steady pace could be a balloon. But then I would see another one once in a while
that was kind of zipping around. That one really weird. They just crossed the sky pretty quickly. And then on another time and this was really strange, and I, you know, I think it's important to tell all the facts, however weird they are. I was with this girl who said she saw UFOs sometimes she could feel them, and she believed that she was a possible abductee. She had some strange memories that were like this, and sometimes she would say we should go outside and look for UFOs. And the first
time I went over there too, she said to SkyWatch. You know, She's like, we should go outside right now, you know, she said you should come over the SkyWatch. I thought we're going to be out there all day, but we were going in and out of the house and we would only stay outside for five ten minutes. And we go out there and she spotted pretty quickly over off in the distance, a white dot. It
just stood there. It just it didn't move at all. It was during the day and it was just in the middle of the day and it was just still. After some time, it like faded out, and then a little bit after that it reappeared and it was just above the spot it was in before, so it wasn't in the same spot, and then it faded out again. This lasted maybe ten to fifteen minutes and that was it. But really weird. I've never figured out what the heck that was. It
is really weird. And yeah, I mean, these things, like I said, could be really anything just based on the photographs and the description of their appearance. But it's the description of the movement how fast these things just shot off that make them really bizarre. That is fascinating. A flash of light and then shooting off that is incredible and as doors is great. Yeah.
So with with local PD and nor ED investigating, hopefully we get some more information about this and they're able to determine more about you know, where these things were exactly in the sky, their altitude, you know, maybe they were captured on radar. That'd be great. Yeah, but we'll see. I mean there are many times we have stories like this and we hear that certain government bodies are investigating, and then we don't hear anything else beyond
that. So hopefully that's not the case with this one, because it's pretty fascinating. Yeah yeah, and now that shitds some more, I think to me, well, I don't know if it does for you, but it even makes this next story even more mysterious. It's one that we covered on Spacing Out, so people can watch Spacing Out or go to our site to see the video. But this is this crazy Hong Kong story that's gone, you know, viral. It's all over the place. You jumped on this,
you know, really early. But this is a guy you know who's watching BBC TV and he sees of the Hong Kong protests this white or this it looks yellowish light you know, coming from the side of the TV screen, and then hover in front of the out above the crowd, and then zoom up into the sky at this incredible speed all of a sudden, and I think this video is really weird. Now we've heard from Ben hanton and Marcy Antonio who both feel that possibly this is a drone and drones can move
really fast. But what are your thoughts? Well, I do absolutely have to agree with them with the drone theory and again, this is just you know, based on the available evidence we have, I think there's enough to suggest that that's what it most likely is. We know for a fact that media, media outlets and probably law enforcement too, but we know media outlets we're using drones there and are using drones there to capture aerial footage of the
mobs of people there. And we've seen that footage from from at least one or or two I believe, of the drones there. And you know, drones can move like this with the perspective of the camera and where the object is, it's difficult to always determine the exact movement of the object if it's actually zooming up or if it's coming toward the camera. That can play tricks
on your eyes a bit there. But as Mark Nentonia points out, these drones can and do ascend rapidly, and again how rapidly that is can be affected by the or the appearance can be affected by the angle of this camera. You know, it can seem to be zooming up a lot faster than it actually is. But I think it's it's a good, good possibility that this is just a drone. It's a good it's a possibility there are drones in the area. That's that that makes it really strong. But I'm not
sold. I mean that video when it shoots up, the camera as at least far enough from the object where it appears like it's shooting up in quite a distance. I mean the lightest small enough. If this is a it's close, it's not close enough to make out the details of the craft. All you can see is a bright light, so it can't be too close. I wouldn't think if you can't make out the details of the craft and then it shoots up, which has got to be quite a distance and you
know, to control that. It just to me that the video itself looks so strange that I still I'm hoping that markd' antonio will recreate this to show to demonstrate that it's possible, because at least right now I'm not totally convinced.
Well, and that's what needs to be done. I mean, if we get a drone with a camera and test it out and try to recreate this, uh you know, rapid assent and see what it looks like from a similar angle, then that could support the possibility that that's what we're seeing in this video. Yeah, yeah, great video, really cool. This is a neat one, and I don't know, this is kind of funny. This is a story I posted, you know, the same day that this next one, and it's gotten a lot of hits. That's why I
want to refer to it. And this is about a Canadian writer who is recalling a UFO siding, and it got a lot of hits up maybe because your Hong Kong story was getting a lot of hits and this was residual. But HiT's a lot of hits, and I thought it was a neat story. I didn't think it would get a lot of hits because it's just another UFO siding, but it's kind of neat. It's this guy who is a contributor to the Innisfaul Province newspaper in Canada. He also has written several books.
He ran for city council out there. But essentially he's writing this story about how there's a lot of UFO sidings and it seems to be there increasing there's been stories all over the country about UFOs. And he says that I saw my own UFO, a bright triangular object that he saw with his son that took off at a rapid pay through the clouds, and he essentially is saying, the UFOs are out there, now we need to get some pictures,
so get your cameras ready kind of thing. So it is kind of, you know, fun to have a reporter out there speaking positively about UFOs. But of course these two stories that we've reviewed has also sparked a lot of media to be talking about UFOs, and largely in kind of a pro you know that this is a mystery perspective. Yeah, we are seeing more of that, and I like that. And what the Colorado thing too.
I mean, the news report that NBC did on it was fairly good, you know, mainly because the reporter himself saw it and knew how bizarret was. But still they had to tag the end of the story with the cheesy guy in the studio saying, well, if you go missing, we'll know why. Hm that cheeseball. You know. So it's still there, but
as we can it's getting better. You Yeah, you can't have everything perfect, but we are seeing more of these stories where they are being taken seriously, and that's why it makes it more frustrating when, like last week and other weeks, we have these stories that are huge stories picked up by seemingly every media outlet in the world, and they're just hoaxes. Yeah yeah.
Speaking of which, just to finalize, you know, another one of our big stories from last week is this alien hoax where there's an alien laying there with a gun on its chest. It's laying on a stretcher. You know, some people did some research. Actually, this guy named Isaac, who is a great researcher who out there, did some work to find out that this was actually part of an airsoft and airsoft are pellets. It's not paintball,
but it's similar to paintball. These guns that shoot these pellets. And these guys go do these war games and stuff, and one of the war games is to recover an alien body. And so this photograph was from this airsoft thing. And this guy ufo Ovney twenty twelve, who has a YouTube site, posted this making it seem as though it was an alien recovery, but that was not the case. Interesting enough, this ufo Ovney got a hold of us, commented and emailed us and said, hey, I didn't
know it was a hoax. Once I found out, I took it down, So please don't say I'm a hoaxer. However, I'm not prepared to go that far. And the reason being is this guy gets a lot of has a lot of videos that get millions of hits, and they are hoaxed videos, many of them known hoaxed. One of them he gets a lot of hits on is a Mermaid video from that documentary that was fiction and admitted fiction. So you know, I emailed him that and said, well what
about your other videos, buddy? And so he's just not a trusted source. And I think people need to know that absolutely. I mean, there are so many of these YouTube channels out there, and whether or not these people are intentionally participating in hoaxes, they're not. I mean they are putting this information out there without you know, looking at the sources, and you can tell by the titles they use and the descriptions they throw in they are
intentionally trying to generate hype and get views. You know, I don't care how much he wants to plead they're oh, I'm just trying to get the information out that No, no, you're not. That's not the case at all. So shame on you. You've got the Jason McKeith McClellan, Shame on you, all right, So there's some new stories. Of course, we have more than this, but this is a lot of really good stuff that we've got on our website. In this last week, it's been really
active. So that's at open mindset TV, and of course check out Jason
Moreen and I on spacing Out on our YouTube channel. You can also reach that from the website openminds dot tv and you interviewed on Spacing Out one of our speakers for the UFO Congress that I'm really excited about, and this is Jeremy Corbel, someone who the UFO community probably doesn't know too much now, but they will in the future because he has these amazing documentaries, a string of them that he's done that will be coming out and he'll be premiering a
couple of those at the congress. Yeah, he's a really talented filmmaker. We've seen some of his work and just what he does telling a visual stories. It's pretty remarkable in my opinion. But you know, there are a lot of people out there making good documentaries, but Jeremy, i think, has done something a little different than many of the other filmmakers. And that
is you know, he's actually spent a lot of time. And I don't know if people will will understand this, but the amount of time he's spent physically with the people he's doing these movies about, it's a lot. You know. He spent hours and hours and hours and hours for you know, years in some cases with these people documenting some of the work that they're doing.
So I think he's got a great insider view. He took the time to not only spend the time with these people and hear their stories, but also then use the connections that he's been able to forge and take their research and do his additional his own additional research with these stories he's doing, and he puts that all together in these documentaries. So I can't wait to see
the final product. I think people will be impressed with his work. And because of the time he's spent with these people who are considered leading researchers in the field, I think his talk at the UFO Congress is going to be pretty phenomenal. The research is probably it gets me real excited because he's not only interviewing these people, he's taken them to what they have to say to task and then going and talking to experts and making some really cool discoveries.
That's right, it's not just a retelling of the same story that a lot of people who have been in this field for a while have heard over and over and over again. You're right, he takes that, he presents that, but then he also, as you said, takes them to task and does additional investigation into the claims. So I really like that. Yeah, and he's found some stuff that substantiates some stuff that many of us might have thought was kind of out there but maybe, Yeah, there's more to it,
so really cool. Yeah, that's going to be a really exciting one. Looking forward to it. Yeah, So, speaking of exciting, let's listen to UFO lawyer Pat Frescona. I am very happy to welcome to the show for the first time, and I think this is really I'm really excited about this because this is a unique perspective, someone different talking about rendalschim.
But I'm really curious because I'm not quite sure what all you're going to have to say about it, but I'm I'm sure it's going to be revealing and exciting and a great perspective. But anyway, we have Pat aka Joseph Fresconia. Hello, how are you? I'm doing well. Thank you a long joy, thank you well, thank you so much for getting a hold of me and wanting to talk about this. And you are Jim and James lawyer? Is that correct? Jim and James John John Burrows. Oh, I'm
sorry John Burrows and James or Jim Penniston. Yeah, yes, yes, yeah, I've worked with both of them extensively over the last couple of three years. Correct. What is your expertise when it comes to law? What area do you usually work in? Well, it began about twenty five years ago as a public defender representing indigent criminal clients, you know, they were
charged with felony offenses and so forth. Later I would, after leaving, I pull onement with government doing that kind of governments and so forth, to representing consumers that were harmed by predatory practices banks, credit card companies and the like. And then I guess, going back about four years ago now, I started getting into some representation of veterans who suffered exotic injuries due to various
kinds of radiation and radio frequencies. Is radiation typically due to something related to their time in the military. Oh, yes, absolutely, uh huh. Now, typically when you work on these sort of cases, do you have trouble getting records? Uh? Most the vast majority of the time of the time, Yes, Oh you do. So you're used to having to fight for for these records, these kinds of records, is mm hmm. So
it's not uncommon. And is this kind of, you know, some unfortunate kind of due to secrecy typically, Well, when I initially began, specifically with John Burrows and Jim Penniston on this, I went into it thinking perhaps that it was just left in the right hands not knowing what they were doing. That's sort of thing. Is that usually what it is often times it
is in the corporate world. But as as time went on, it became more apparent, particularly in their case, that there was something that just didn't want to release, and then being contacted by dozens and if not hundreds, by now of other veterans who were in different different military scenarios, if you will, thinks that everything from say atomic testing in the Pacific or what have you, a pattern emerged where anytime something was being done that was let's just
say unusual, and anyone injured seemed to have a fault in getting their records later on when they wanted with I think there is a component of negligence without any doubt. Certainly anytime you're talking about government, there is just people not getting the job done, not caring or whatever. But he goes beyond that. I think in these cases there's an additional level that a deliberate omission in giving people what they deserve. So when do you ad when did Jim,
I Guess and John approached you together they did? And what did you think of their story? Had you been into UFOs or given them much that prior to meeting them, and how did you feel about what they were telling you? Well, all my life, even from as a boy, I was a member for a while of NICAP National Investigative Committee on the airline Oh really wow, and subscribe to their newsletter. But you know, as I moved into my teens and early twenties and into thirties, I really didn't give much
thought to it other than I was always somewhat interested. I just thought there was something worth taking note of in the field, but I didn't study it per se. But it wasn't until I happened to catch Bill Burns Pat Huskert on the show UFO Hunters back in eight two thousand and eight, an episode called Military Versus UFOs that I was exposed for the first time to the Renderlshom
Forest incident, and it immediately struck me as something special. You know, it was not just unusual, but perhaps a gateway event into exposing the truth. And ultimately from there I would seek out John and Jim for a UFO conference that I promoted here in which I inviodied them down on London Molten Howe and Tom Carey of the Rosall incident, and that's when we got to know
each other and everything happened from there. So and also for the audience, maybe in your own words, could you summarize the Renders from Forrest incident as you understand it, what happened. Well, you can't do it justice to summarize it, but I'll give it. I'll give it a whirl. Over the course of a few nights in December nineteen eighty, beginning with Boxing Day,
there were lights in the forest. The initial contact was by Ed Cobanzig, John Burrows and Jim Penison, who responded as part of the military police team to what initial craft in the forest, and ultimately they would encounter a craft about approximately ten feet in length, five or six seven feet in width eight or so feet in height, and that craft, which ultimately took off from the forest floor where it had been sitting, did so silently and then
departed at impossible speeds I think is what Jim Pinison's words were in regard to that. The next night, then Colonel Halt was a deputy based commander. He got involved because there was a reappearance whether there was an appearance of something this time was a little bit different. There was a light moving around in the forest that would eventually morph into several lights that would go overhead and collectively this is called the Rendelstrom forest incident. Of course, there's a whole lot
more than what I just summarized, but right, that's basic. Right. And so when you, uh, you know, first looked into this, I guess you know, and you having looked at the book, there are other controversial possible events that had taken place. For instance, there are claims of you know, the government meeting extraterrestrials and things like this. What did you what do you feel about those claims? You're probably talking about Larry Warren's
claims. I don't know Larry. I've never spoken to him. I've stuck to many folks involved in the Rendilstrom incident, typically John Burrows, for example, When you talk about Larry these claims, he'll just say I don't have the same because John was there for both nights, you know, with Colonel Fulton before. John will typically say things like, you know, if it happened the way Larry said, I don't remember that, he doesn't say it
didn't. Going back to what I just said. Since I've never talked to Larry and don't know Larry, I really can't pass judgment on what Larry has to say, gotcha, So I personally don't give credence to him like I do John and Jim's side of what happened those events, because I do know them so well and talked to them at length for so many times. Got cha. So, Jim and John had come to you with that they had medical currently they have medical problems right, and that they believed could possibly be
related to what happened there in the rendelschromp Forest. Did you agree with that?
Did you think you know this is a possibility well given. Speaking specifically of John in this case, since he has had some of the most pronounced medical issues as a result, and these are issues that began in the days immediately after the incident in nineteen eighty and also having been present in Tucson last year at the Veterans the VA Hospital thereafter his heart surgery and speaking to his surgeon who performed the surgery, I asked him point blank if he knew what
he caused a particular damage to his heart, and he said he had no idea what could have caused her that and along with some other things I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about, just because they get more deeply into John's medical file, I would say that what happened to him and others that I talked to in the know the juries that occurred to him were due to a certain type of radiation that is known to be emitted by certain objects when they are operating
in the spread of dimensions that they're operating. And as the words, it's part of their operation, it's part of the culture of the operation of the craft. It's what comes off of it is you will electromagnetic laws and this type of radiation. Yeah, just quick schooling for anyone listening that's curious. Electromagnetic radiation covers a visible light, all the X rays and so forth, So when you say radiation, it could be light, but it could also
be X rays. It's an all inclusive term used that way. But there are certain frequent fees within the spectrum that are believed to be necessary for certain craft to be able to operate to what they do. And it is that spectrum or within and that that man that it affects human physiology, that it
does specifically heart tissue mm hmm. And when you say okay, and are are there for instance, like machines in matil military would use or that would emit this sort of radiation that you're aware of, what I gets into the question was a black Ops project? I personally do not think it was. At this point. I'm convinced it was something else. It wasn't theirs, meaning it wasn't the Soviets, it wasn't ours. If it was ours,
then it was us testing someone else's equipment. And also you have to remember if in December of nineteen eighty we had a craft that was doing what this craft did, and there's no doubt in my mind, the craft was there and it did what it did. I know the two of the three principles and of the stories too well and have been with them in too many, too many in different settings to question their credibility as far as reporting what they
saw. To this day, what are we thirty four years subsequent. There's still nothing at an air show near me that operates anything like that thing.
Yeah, and at least in in their regular work in the military or otherwise, they never came into contact with anything known to have no nothing even close, nothing than close, right, And so when we're getting into the details of what the craft did, and this is an interesting point, and it would be great to hear your perspective as you work closely with both of them.
From my understanding and from my own personal interviews of both gentlemen, Peniston had actually when they came across this bright light, Peniston had approached the object. He actually touched it. This is where you know. He gave the details and he took notes when he was examining the object that it was triangular, floating above the ground. He took the notes and pictures and stuff. And then it lifted up and it shot off However, John stopped and didn't
get as close. But from my understanding, John only saw a bright light. He didn't see details of the physical craft. Is that correct? Well, there is some indication that John may have actually entered the craft entered it. Yes. John has told me that there was a time during that experience where he said that he as he described that, he was in the middle of a football stadium size room, and he doesn't have the memory quite the
same as Jim does. Jim was doing a walk around of the crap, as you know, and writing notes in his field book notebook and wasn't paying so much attention to what John was doing at that time. And John just doesn't have the depth of memory about the incident as Jim does well. And it is interesting where we talked about earlier, and I guess I should mention this and talked about it, you know, I've talked about it on the
show before. But how we did this story about John? And John had revealed that there was a UK document done by the UK Defense Intelligence Group and about UFOs in two thousand and it was released in two thousand and six, and he noticed and I believe some of this is in the book also on the Renderlstrom forst that recently came out, that was written by Nick Pope with Jim and John, and he had noticed that they had talked about exposure to
u AP another term for UFOs radiation, and one of the effects is memoryless and problems with memories. And I note yet John has talked all along about believing to have some sort of issue with his memory during this experience. Okay, well, so you're you're hitting on something that's that's quite quite interesting that
you were. You were so sharp as to note what you just did, because there is a certain trying to show you how I want to put this there, there's certain research I would say that's been done on why humans, certain some humans, I should say, react the way they do to this ordia. In other words, not every human being is affected in the same
way. Does maybe the genetic makeup whatever. There's a gene that's gene, but it just happens to be a gene that allows somebody to come in a certain radius of these craft when they're operating where their hard tissue is not affected at virtual excuse me. Jim Peniston, for the most part, was not affected in the same ways that John was yet Jim was quite close to it.
And you mentioned the memory laws. That would be another example. If this was a craft, whether it was from somewhere else or it was us operating someone else's craft from somewhere else, there is an important need to know how we can use or put a human operator in these crafts without them being injured. You follow, mm hmm. So folks like Jim and John are important because they help an understanding how a human operator could safely operate one of
these crafts. So that's uh, some research that they have found it is going on. I would I without going into details, I will tell you that I believe, strongly believe that there is yes interesting and I mean yeah, like like we noted that this is noticed by the UK, and and like you said, and maybe for uh and let me let me add one more thing. Pardon the interruption. This is not this is not so unlike or dissimilar to the examples of trying to find suitable pilots for the military and
putting them in the centrifuges. You know where they spin around and they have so many G forces. Some people can handle those g forces better than others. Mm. So in a way. It's similar to that, far more sophisticated medically, but it's still the same idea. And an example of this, I mean, and bringing it to this case is that you know, Pennison touched the object, he walked around it for a period of time,
doesn't seem to be suffering from the same conditions that Burrows is now. Burrows, I mean, mostly of what he's conveyed is that you know, he stopped short, he was very freaked out with this very bright light. But he does now yes, seem to have start to have some memories of possibly entering the craft. And how is he retrieving these? Are they coming back naturally or has he gotten under hypnosis or anything like that. He has gone
under hypnosis before, many years ago. And as far as whether these particular memories you're talking about are the results of that, I cannot remember myself when he told me if they were independent of the hypnotism or not, I just don't recall. I'm sorry, go ahead, oh no, And then I was going to say, so, you know, unfortunately both they both have memory issues, or especially John during this period of time. So I'm not
quite sure what happened, but something did happen. He was out there up and there were other witnesses to this thing, you know, that night, but they're also was and I know this is in the book, they did measure radiation in the area. Is that correct afterwards? Yes? And and who measured that go ahead? I believe that was Carl Halt's team that did that. And there were readings higher than normal on the trees where the scuff
marks you know, were in that sort of thing. Now, it is my understanding that that is to be expected because if something is moving in the manner that such craft move okay, then there is necessarily going to be some radiation that's going to result. And what I'm what I'm trying to what I'm trying to say is a craft such as this one that we're talking about here, was not performing like a normal aerodynamic craft as we know it. It
was performing and call it interdimensionally if you want, that. It was not operating in the same space time all the time. It was operating in a variety of space times during that time. So when it came in and it was on the floor, his floor, it was there. However, something to point out John and Jim both talk about as they got close to the craft, they noticed that to you, and Jim told me once that he
remembers. He said, it was hard to explain, but it was like everything was slowing down, the forest himself, everything was slowing down as they got close to it. Well, that's the space time distortion going on. That's all that is. Wow. Interesting. And then with the craft. Then when the craft took off, the same thing occurred. And when you talk about space time distortions in that it's in kind of a space time flex.
Do you are there other people who have told you this? I mean, do you have other experts that are saying that that that's what they believe was going on. I'm just curious. Want answer to that is yes, yes, people that are trained to know such things in science have told me about. Okay, so you know, so they have this strange experience when they came to you. Were they already having problems getting their records or was that or were you the one who sought their records and then and then ran
into the issues. It's now been several years ago. I can't remember exactly at what point they were as far as their attempts go, but I know that there the frustration was already there sufficient to want to invite a lawyer into the mix. So and what was the nature of you know, what they weren't able to retrieve and what was uh, you know, being withheld or or allegedly lost well with John going back to him, since most of the work that I've done in this particular aspect of it has been for his sake
John, because he's had the most critical medical issues. John has been unable to get a complete medical file on himself from the Air Force or anyone else who's the custodian of from since that would have them, He's gotten bits and pieces. You have to understand, when he went into the Air Force, he didn't have any physical issues, and within a I think it was less than a year on another physical after the incident, he had suddenly developed the
issues such as the heart problem that he didn't have before. Anything that relates to showing that we can't seem to get from the government, and even more incredible is all I'd say is about eight nine months ago now maybe a little longer. The government or the military, whoever you want to one of the same in his case essentially was denying that he was even in the Air Force. In December of nineteen eighty. We finally got that corrected with the health
of Cenator John McCain's office. But that's the sort of the sort of silliness that we've run into with them trying to basically just repel all the attempts to show anything. Now one might say, well, why is it a big deal to produce the medical records. Why, Well, because in the minds of those at Keep Secrets, they don't want to give any substance of help to any kind of particularly this incident, because it's obviously one that's important.
They don't want to be able to share John to show that he had no hard problems immediately before, but he did immediately after the incident. That's sort of mm hmm. Yeah. And when it comes to Jim, then is he experiencing health issues, then that may be related at all. Yet Jim has been public about some of those, I think insomnia and things such as that, but nothing nothing to the degree of John and so, and obviously,
of course John needs help when it comes to finances. I'm sure he's you know, trying to and I think I read this he's trying to, you know, get the VA to help. And of course if he wasn't in the military during that time according to the Air Force, that would be an issue, a big one. So I believe one of his denials was based in part or essentially on that. With his disability from the da as the fact that they said he wasn't even end during that time. It's it's
just it's ridiculous. It's that. And and the thing is keeping in mind that John's not and Jim's not the only veteran. Aren't the only veterans out there that have been exposed something unusual and not everything that's unusual that has produced an exotic injury is related to something dis exotic suddenly. But it's really sad that the Veterans Administration has not taken care of these vets mm hmm for the
sake of keeping something secret well. And and have they said that what has been their excuse or did they saying the records were just lost or are they saying that they are classified? We know we know that we know that John's records are classified percent to a letter by John McCain wow that said that they
were. And initially going back to the talking to as many vets as I have initial kind of fault that maybe that was a unique case, but now we find that it's really not just about any that it seems that was involved in something unusual that they just don't want to talk about. Finds their records classified or wow, otherwise disappeared or gone or whatever. Well, and I
know i'd imagine. And this just keeps reminding me of Area fifty one, which is just it's so tragic because in Area fifty one, you know, there were the guys who were told to burn, yeah, to burn the chemicals. They got sick, and they needed those records to show the doctors, you know, what they might have been burning to help them, and they never got them. Secrecy won, and so these people's health was you
know, the secondary to the secrets. And that's what gets frustrating, especially because I'm sure the doctors would like to know the nature of what happened to John in order to help him. Oh what, We've got a letter from one of John's Savigian doctors. It's asked or makes that point, just as you get that he would like to see the complete military medical follow John to properly treat the man. M Yes, well, and it's very telling.
I mean, of course that John would have some records classified, and I think that's what makes this all so important and interesting, because I mean, is there any other project or or that John was involved with that was classified that would justify, you know, any sort of classification of medical records other than this incident with the UFO. This is this is the only one that I know of. This is the only one. So it's almost saying,
you know, yeah, this UFO thing is classified. Yep. Absolutely, It's the same old thing that you see, whether it's the boomerang shaped craft, the size of three shopping centers that went over Phoenix back and was it ninety seven, it's the same old thing. Nobody or the Sorcerer object that was over O'Hare was it in two thousand and six in Chicago or eight somewhere in there. Nobody in official them ever, seems to want to comment, or if they do, it gets down to the absurd where it was a
weather balloons, weather phenomena. They love weather. It's always something related to them, and they just ignore it. Figuring I guess that most people will pay it attention if official doom doesn't. So what's extremely what's most upsetting, though, of course, in a situation like this, is someone's health as at stake. I know, it's pretty chilling. When I finally came to the real I knew, look, I knew from I knew from my legal
career. And when it came to money American corporations, there are are many of them, too many of them out there that will clean you all it out. They don't care, you know. I had no idea though, that that mindset could carry over to our own government when it came to people's lives, and particularly people that had served in the military. Right, talk about chilling, and that that was really that that I still find that not
just abhorrent, but I find it absolutely frightening. That's that's the world we're living in right now. Have you ever ran across a case like this that's a that's an actually a good question. I've run across some similar UFO card cases, okay, uh, involving police officers and involving former military that had gone back to but none none, none that had all the elements quite as perfectly as no. Mm hmm. Well, and even in your in your
professional life, have you ran across even UFO related or not. Uh, this sort of stone walling. Uh yes, well not by the government. No, not gonna go Really, So in your other cases where you've helped people, uh in this sort of area, have you, you've always been
eventually able to get records from the government. Well if you if you couldn't get records eventually you get satisfaction if you, for example, what would satisfaction be in this case, I give John disability and say, look, we're not going to tell you what happened to you, but we're going to take care of you. And that's it. And how likely do you think that is that could have it could be that that happens. I think there is
a good chance that's going to happen. But I also think they play a game of they take a long time to do it because they're just running the clock out for people. I figure that, you know, so many folks will just go ahead and die off and they won't have to deal with it. But see, that's really sad. And and then of course with the recent VA issues, you know, I live out here in Arizona, so
kind of the epicenter of all of that. But that is just tragic that of course that these people would have that sort of attitude towards veterans, to let them die off, people that should be honored for, you know,
the sacrifices they've made. I find it repugnant that there are semi politicians and I'm not thinking of anyone in particular right now when I say this, just in general that will drape the flag around themselves in support of veterans, and then when it gets down to this kind of thing, evidently they're not doing anything about it. And it's beyond say it to think that this is what's happening. So were you satisfied it sounds like Senator McCain's office did helped quite
a bit, Sarmim. McCain's office has been beyond helpful. They have taken what I believe I used to work in Washington for a congressman from California years ago. The folks there have done a wonderful job in expressing sincere concern and attempting to see this taken care of for John, you know, your disability
claim and so forth. I think the problem is they face a behemoth of a bureaucracy that they don't necessarily control either, you know, and they have to operate within certain guidelines there or rather constraints as far as getting things done. But they have done a wonderful job in helping this fall. What are their views, I mean, what do they make of this whole thing? Uh, that there's something, there's something to Rendelsham that is important enough to
screw around with somebody like John m hmm. That's basically what they would say. Wow. And do you know if McCain himself is aware of the situation. I have been, I have not spoken to the Center myself personally. John has and according to John, yes he is. Wow. It would be so interesting to know how he feels about the situation. I'm sure he finds it as repulsive as anyone else. But again, he's you know, he can only do so much, even as a city in US senator.
But I think he's doing all that he can. Mhm. So it's really impressive. I think that, And that John has gone on his own, and I know he feels a little bit left out on his own. He's expressed, you know, kind of some disappointment with that he hasn't had help from other renders, from researchers, but that he's gone out to seek all of these records and information, and it sounds like he's doing an excellent job. I think he is. I wish I wish more people were like him.
M hm. He's the type of person that's going to make sure justice is done. So yeah, I mean that was pretty impressive. I mean, I think it's pretty revealing that that section on the UAP radiation he found in that U declassified document. What was it like? How did you react when when he showed that to you? Oh, it was wonderful, I think. And also that that particular document appears to me to have been written in such a way as to try to explain Rendolsom away using the ball lightning
and so forth. But I think there are elements of of of absolute truth in there as far as the effects. And I'll put it this way, I think it was written that was written with the Rendalstroom case in mind. Much of that. Certainly that page, that one page that I think you're probably talking about primary. Of course, they referenced Rendlssom as well, and that wasn't just a happenstance. I think that's because that was the incident they
were thinking. The author was thinking of the whole Commune brought it. Yeah, well, and this is you know, getting to the book there are and just your feelings and if you've seen kind of some of this controversy. There's a lot of controversy around Nick Pope. I've spent a lot of time with him. I've interviewed him quite a bit. I think he's been really helpful to this field and pushing forward, you know, to get out information on the topic. But of course he worked for the Ministry of Defense.
He makes it and he's mentioned this at times a little difficult working on this book because he is still under the Secrecy Act and they're in the UK, and he did have the book kind of looked at by the mod to make sure he wasn't talking about anything he shouldn't be. And of course then people have been questioning that, and some researchers in particular have said that they feel
he's scrubbed the book a bit and isn't being totally forthcoming. Have you seen that at all, at least in what Jim and John have been working on. Do you feel that any of their information or your work it was suppressed at all in the book? No? No, I mean the four of us talked on more occasions than I can count during the time the book was being written, sometimes as frequently as once a week we would conference call to discuss the chapters and so forth. Anything that Nick. I don't think scrub
would be the right word. I think Nick, if he did anything in that regard, it was just it was the way he phrased it, just because he wanted to make sure he was not doing anything he shouldn't under any prior mandates that he had. I don't know. But is keeping anything out? No, No, I don't think so. I wouldn't buy into that. So you I mean it sounds like have no reservations about the book or and you do not feel that with your involvement that you saw anything of that
sort. No, no, no, no no. So are you personally very satisfied with the book and how it represents the at least what you've worked on? Well the goal? The short answer, yes, because the goal was to get the book out there with John and Jim's names on it, because previously they had not done that, and to put something down that would, you know, talk in their words what had happened. And I think it was important to do that, And so in that regard. Yes,
I mean, I'm quite pleased with it. M And have you? I mean, what's it been like for you working on this? I guess you've been an interested in the UFOs for quite some time. It sounds like you have facilitated events around UFO, so I guess your family and colleagues probably weren't too surprised you were working on a case like this. Well now, not necessarily. I mean again, remember I said, I've always had an interest,
but it really was not a public interest. I've noticed those since I've been involved in this that I now get labeled as a certain kind of UFO guy or UFO lawyer, what have you. Oh really, and that doesn't really bother me because, as you probably well know, the vast majority of people that discount the possibility of UFOs being aliens don't know what they're talking about. They don't know. They couldn't tell you one detail that couldn't of any
great case that they don't know. But as you get into it, and you start to read and listen with an opening in mind, then you want to start to understand that you can't just discount the stuff as being you know, whether phenomena or what has said. But and of course, something that Tom Carey told me once was you're not really in this field until somebody turns their back on you because you are in this field and they think you're crazy. And I've now had that happen. But I've got to wear this badge
of honor. And I think, you know, Okay, that's cool. You can believe whatever you want. I'm gonna believe what I believe because I'm giving it a chance. You're not, so it's okay. Do you think it's hurt you at all? Professionally? I don't care if it has. To be honest with you, it maybe it has. And I kind of look at it as John and Jim and I were meant to join forces as we have, and I'm just gonna follow what the universe is laid out for
me. Well, have you had those situations where colleagues who were skeptical took a look at the book and said, wow, oh yeah. Of course the typical reaction is, well, I never realized that all this happened because I never realized it was this in depth of people like these people were involved. It's such a thing, right, certainly when you talk about pilot's police and military personnel. The average person is going to listen a little bit more
intently. Mm hmmm. Right. And rendel Sham is an important case, I mean, Nick Popike's to say often that it's the most important case, possibly more important than Roswell, probably because you know so many of the witnesses are living and forthcoming. Do you feel the same way I do, in the sense that Roswell, of course is Roswell and always will be. It's
a standalone standard by which to compare cases. I think Nick is correct, though I'm not sure if there's even one surviving witness now I can't recall, but there were up until well within the last ten years, but it's now kind of gotten pushed back so far on the timeline, Rendelsham is a lot just based on what you see on cable TV UFO shows today. You seldomly see Roswell compared to the Renilsm. You see Rendelsom three or four to one
to Roswell stories. And I kind of press you, right there, what's more popular? Yep, yep, but Randall Chem being of course really important, And then I you know, I should ask another great witness, of course, is Colonel Halt, who was a deputy based commander, and have you had much interaction with him? I have never, unfortunately, never had the opportunity to speak with the colonel he oh, well, take that back. I have exchanged emails, but I've never spoken to him personally, never
spoken to him. I know he's very cautious, no doubt when he is he is, which is understandable. I would think too, he is. I've had the pleasure of meeting Major General Gordon Williams. He was very very nice man. Met him last year. And who was he again? I'm sorry I've forgotten Williams? Uh was? I think at that time he was already head of the Air Force NATO in that part of their area. I can't remember. His exact title comes up now. The two anthmates on the
tip of my tongue. But he was over dent Waters was put it that way, and Colonel Hawk reported to him, I believe routinely, or at least in this incident, he did. The General was very much aware of everything. But the General is also very very tight left. I'll say that the Prince of Gentleman Knifeguard, did he share with you his thoughts on the whole UFO incident, only to the extent that when he was through I didn't know if he was a believer or not to some of that rhetic rhetoric,
administrative, bureaucratic kind of accounting, and he did not. He didn't say anything in support of it. Yeah, funny. So going forward, so you're still fighting to get the disability for both gentlemen, just John right now, Okay, and hopefully that will happen. And as far as you feel, you know what, can't can the person out there who feels for John do something to help that? Uh? You know, it's never And I want to emphasize that because this is one of the things that threw me into
helping these two gentlemen. It's never been about money, and it's always been about the pursuit of the truth about what happened to them. And now, in John's case, because of the severity of the issues getting his disability from the government for the injury sustained there, I think the best thing would be to go on the Justice for bent Water's website or through Facebook, what have
you, just to drop John a note and say you're support him. That means an awful lot to both him, It really does, and that website's justice for bent Waters. I believe it's justice for bent Waters. If you just go and put bent Waters Rendelson, you know you're going to come up with a variety of sites. And John Burrows is attached to that, Facebook and so forth, so finding them is not hard to do. So just some feedback, I know. Yeah, he's a lot on a lot of
the networks, you know, on Facebook, I am. Especially lately he's been doing a lot of commenting and talking out there, which is great to hear from him. And I know there is a rendallstamp Forrest incident page out there as well. I believe people can go check out that they monitor. So just giving some words of support is helpful, it really is. That's a lot of the fuel that keeps them going. It's one of the things I admire the most about it. And how has this case affected you?
Is your life different? Has it given you kind of a new mission to help out with this in this field? Or how does it affected you? Well, certainly it's opened my eyes to a lot of things that are going on that I never even thought about could be going on. And I don't just mean alien presence I mean the way our government is actually handling things. And my father was a World War two veteran, and so I've always had
a lot of respect for those those men and women that serve it. Also, it kind of keeps me looking to the sky a little bit more than I ever did before, just knowing that there are things, there are things going on that are beyond our normal everyday experiences, and every now and then someone like John Brows or Jim Peniston encounters them in a forest. So yeah, have you have you yourself had a sighting? Now? Not particularly I could sit. I mean there have been times many Oftica we wonder and we're
driving home one night from somewhere, what a light is? It doesn't look like a plane, but nothing, nothing that comes to you anywhere close to this. Wow. But now that you're looking up more, hopefully you'll have your incredible sighting. That's right, all right, Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been so terribly interesting and it's great to hear from you, and it's great that you're doing this work. I mean, this is really important stuff, and I think this story in
this case is really important. I mean, just by the government withholding this information is confirmation that something happened, Right. I used to think that maybe not, that they're just keeping secret secrets of military hardware and so forth. I'm now at the point where I realized that it's not all explained away by that anymore, that it makes far more sense that something is going on.
It reminds me of a quote by doctor Jeff Meldrum, Ida Hostate University, anthropologist's prominent figure Big sit world, right, And I heard him once say that it seems to him more likely that there is an unknown five feedal eight walking around in the woods up there than it is that there isn't that that explained things a little bit better, And I kind of feel the same way
about this field. I think it makes more sense that something from outside of what is going on than it does to explain plain it away with all the other things that we've been trying to explain our way from. Right. Yeah, well, I know a lot of the listeners here will agree with you
wholeheartedly. So and do you have an is there another website you would recommend people to go to, or just go check out the book and check out the Justice for Rendellshim that's what I would do, and I would let the guys know that you're with them, you believe in what they're doing, and good luck, wish all right, great, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you all right, Thank you so much to Pat for joining us. Really interesting stuff. I mean, this is a really cool
developing story. So we'll be keeping up with John. We'll have him on the show soon to get his perspective on all of this, And of course you could read our story about John and his findings at Openminds dot tv. You can also read more about this in the Rendalshian book that they wrote that Jim and James wrote, or John and Jim wrote with Nick Pope about the Rendal Schamp Forest with the information that Pat had also you know, given to
them or worked on. So all of this is in the book. They The book doesn't really chronicle all of John's research in all of this, but it does have a section that covers some of it. We covered a little more in our story on this, and then we'll be talking to John to get even more and of course Pat then give it, gave us a lot more of the story. But amazing story that really has to get out there.
And this may be the one, you know, one of the new cases that really pins the government down to show that there's there's somewhat of a cover up going on of some sort of what who knows, So we need to find that out. So this is great step. So thank you so much to Pat. Don't forget to check out our video portal on our website, and this is a page you can go to where you don't have to
buy the DVDs anymore of all of our lectures from the UFO Congress. You can now go to the site and for a few bucks a month join and go and watch all the videos you want whenever you want, or just pay a couple bucks to watch one individual video if that's what you want to do. We have a dozen or so videos up there now, but we're adding more every month than when we're done, we're gonna have tons, dozens and dozens and dozens of videos up there. So a lot of incredible lectures from
the past and that you're gonna be able to see. And you know what, it's research that is really important that hopefully does not get lost, you know, over time, and you know, people like Francis Barwood who was the city councilwoman in Phoenix during the Phoenix Lights, and she hasn't spoken very much. Not a lot of people have gotten to hear her full story.
And I think it's the most incredible story when it comes to the Phoenix Lights because she interviewed thousands of witnesses and brought that to the city council to get them to do something and ran into a lot of problems. And then we also have people because unfortunately over time, people pass. One of those people's Lloyd Pie, has passed away. He did research on the Starchild's skull. But you'll be able to see one of his last lectures if you go to
our video portal. So we have a lot of cool stuff there. And speaking of awesome UFO Congress talks, you can see them alive this February the eighteenth to twenty second. You can register for the UFO Congress. You need to get in there. There's still rooms available in the host conference hotel. Those book up quick. I doubt that we'll have any that will probably get booked up within the next month, even though we're months out. It gets
booked up quick. So if you want to be in the host hotel, you got to get your room quick, and you got to register really quick. Otherwise, if you don't get in the host hotel, there are nearby hotels you can stay at, so no problem. But you definitely want to check out this year's conference. It's gonna be huge. We have a lot of incredible stuff. We have a lot of great speakers. We've got Jeremy
like we talked about, but I keep talking about the Alligash guys. I mean, I was hanging out with Travis Walton this weekend at a camp out, and I keep telling people that this Alligash abduction case that will be featured
at our conference is just as important as his case. And one of the reasons is because the witnesses are so down to earth, regular guys and getting to meet and talk to them is an experience, and just like with Travis Walton's case, because really meeting Travis Walton is one of the most convincing things when it comes to oat case because he's just such a down to earth guy and you really feel for him or when he talks about this story. So
that's gonna be a really exciting one. So definitely go to Ufocongress dot com or openmindstat tv to see more about that. You want to check out our spacing out where we talk about Hong Kong and see the interview that Jason did with Jeremy Corbel. So a lot of cool stuff as usual at openmindstat TV that you got to check out. And of course mofon Sightings written by Rogermarsh every day, so get the latest mofon siting news. Thank you all so
much for joining us next week. Thank you to Caleb Hanks for the open End Close music. You can see more about him and his excellent music at UFO or a I always say UFO Chronicles. That's a different site. He's at the clerk Chronicles dot com, so you can check that out. His music is awesome, So let's listen to it now as we say goodbye to our friends and listeners. Join us next week for another great show. Audios mood Tuchos