Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with Martin uh rolling Stone willis again. Yes I'm on the road. Didn't I do rolling Stone before? Yes? You did, but that's you know, going back. Did I sing it a little bit? You haven't sang yet, and please enlighten up. So I'll make it this is this will make it unique because I like to sing this song. Papa was a Martin was a rolling Stone web he lays his
head is his home. And when he died, but you didn't die, so that no, oh year left. This was a low lo there you go. I like I especially liked the music, but yeah, I was waiting for you hit that high note, didn't mean and when he died, I just can't do it. I can't go that high. Yeah, I have to scream it out man. And plus I felt that by saying and when he died, when I was singing about because you haven't died and I don't want to give you any bad juju. Yeah that's true. Wow.
Yeah, I got enough of it around me. I don't that. Yeah, bad juju is bad. So interesting show today controversial Roswell Show Now that we're getting into June, we're getting very much closer. We're about a month away from the Roswell Festival and I'll be speaking there for the Roswell Daily Record, and my guest today, Nick Redfern, will be speaking as well.
Interesting enough, he's speaking for a like a religious group who believes that aliens are demons whoa and people UFO believers might think he's a demon as well when they hear that he's talking about Roswell and he's being about Bitzack religious and that he's introducing an alternative theory that does not include aliens what he feels the Roswell
crash could have been. And he talks about how this is not just something he came up with essentially, but that some mysterious witnesses have told him about. So we'll be talking about this. This is Some people might be like, hey, man, you just had Nick Redfern a couple months ago, which is true, but that's because this guy keeps writing books, man, he keeps belting them out. And he just had that cool three hundred and
sixty five Days of UFO's book come out a few months ago. So that's what we interviewed him about last time, and now we've got him on about this new Roswell book that I'm sure they scrambled to get it out in time for this kind of what is it, the seventieth anniversary, and he did it. So we're talking to him about this. Yeah, I'm really really interested to hear what he has to say. I know this he had the book I think was The Body Snatchers or something backed Body Snatchers in the Desert.
Yeah, that's right, And so this is kind of like a follow up with more inform, right, Yeah, I'm really interested to hear your arguments and his responses. Yeah. This, you know, I probably could have maybe pushed him harder, but you know, I'm not like a super Roswell expert. I mean, of course I'm up to speed on things.
And I did interview Kevin Randall not too long ago about his new Roswell book, which was great, and so I felt I was, you know, and I and I figured I'm going to try to put him to task a little bit. But he really does a good job in answering the questions and he even made me think, hey, maybe this is a plausible possibility. So yeah, interesting stuff. Yeah, so it's yeah, it will be great to listen to. I did hear him on another show, but I only caught a little part of it, So yeah, I can't wait to
hear this one. So but before we talk to Nick, let's talk about the news. We've got a couple kind of big pieces of news here. But let's see what you want to talk about first. Yeah, all right, sure, This I think is very interesting because of the photos. This happened in your neck of the woods, Phoenix, I mean Apache County, Arizona, and it happened back and on April fourteenth, just a few weeks back, and there's some great pictures on this. So I want the listener
to check it out, the story out. The title of the show is Arizona Photos, Arizona UFO witness describes six hovering discs now the pictures, it just looks like, you know, it looks like a surround of lights. They also mentioned that it seemed to beam light down toward the ground. Now, it was a woman witness. She said she was on on a train going through Apache County basically, and she was couldn't sleep, looked out the
window and saw a very bright light. It became brighter and brighter as the train approached, and so she called them six objects side by side, and she actually said that she saw two rows of windows and she felt it was like a two story object. What did you think of these pictures? I think they're pretty pretty interesting. At first, I looked and I thought, oh, that's a reflection of a highway light, you know, which we
see happen sometimes. Yeah, and I guess it could be. But then, you know, as I read on and looked at the picture, I thought, well, maybe not. This person is not on the highway like I assumed so, and it seems kind of on its own, out there outside of like you said, this train, so kind of interesting. And then the last photo is a bright and it's so bright you can't really tell
what it is, so it could be practically anything. But then I read this line, which I really like because it seems like a friend of the witness posted this for the witness and his friend said, she's no bs, kind of lady lady. Yeah, so there's a there's a you know, they're so it is interesting. Yeah. I like the story, and so it's it's actually being investigated by Christine Wolfe I'm not sure if you know who she is. She's an Arizona field investigator for move On and and so I
don't know how that. You know, usually Roger will post how the case is, whether it's open or closed, and so I'm guessing this is still being investigated. Yeah. Yeah, it says this one's still under investigation. So he warns, please be cautious because you never know what they're going to find out. So this one's still under investigation. So I'll be excited to
hear what they figure find out. Yeah. Now, when something is if there's some new news on a story like this, can you actually find out that information like on a move on website or something not really Rogers got to post it typically and hopefully, you know, the state director or researcher will alert Roger that there is new info so he can know because otherwise it's a barrage of information. You know, they have these sightings coming in every day,
so I know it's hard to keep up on. But one thing that's really cool is you know we have Robert Powell on every year who's part of their board of scientific researcher. Something I can't remember the name. I think that's what they're called, and they do a top ten where they review all of the best sightings and come up with they feel are the best sightings of the Sometimes they don't even come up with ten because they don't feel there's ten
worthy sightings. So so that's that's a great service because then you know somebody's scrubbing these and if this story is is really great, then we'll hear from Robert and the full analysis, you know, later this year. Yeah. I actually like that fact that they don't just go ahead and post ten if they don't feel as though something that's deserving of it. I like that too.
Yeah, it speaks to their credibility. The Scientific Review Board, that's what they're called, I think is one of the best parts of that organization. Yeah. There's a lot of great investigators out there, a lot of them throughout the country. But the board is a great thing that they've put together. And these people all do this for free. They don't eat their time and a lot of time. Yeah. So another a couple other bigger stories. Did you see Bob Bigelow on sixty Minutes? I did. I
heard about it, I didn't actually see it. Yes, So this was she he was interviewed by Laura Logan and on sixty Minutes, and of course this was more about the conventional stuff, the space stuff that he's doing, which is a lot of fun. And of course you and I talk about this a lot because I am a fan of Big Low and Big Lower of space and what they're doing. So they have, you know, an inflatable
unit up on the International Space Station right now. And of course, as we've talked about through the show and interviewed with people, he's also been into UFOs, so he on sixty Minutes they asked him about that. Logan asked him, do you believe in aliens? He said, I'm absolutely convinced. That's all there is to it. She then said, do you also believe that UFOs have come to Earth? He said, there has been and is an existing presence and et presence. And I spent millions and millions and millions.
I probably spent more than as any I probably spent more as an individual than anybody else in the United States has ever spent on this subject. She says, it is is it risky for you to say in public that you believe in UFOs and aliens? He says, I don't give a damn. I don't care for Yeah. So she says, you don't worry what some people may say. Did you hear that guy? He sounds like he's crazy. Bigelow says, I don't care. It's not going to make a difference.
It's not going to change reality of what I know. Isn't that great? Yeah? Right there on sixty minutes. So that was really cool. Of course, a lot of people are excited about what we've known about Bigelow's UFO's interest for a long time. He did a great interview with George Knapp, a couple on Coast to coast. They are friendly with each other and know each other. So those have been the best interviews I think so far
with big Low. But really cool stuff. So and I kind of running out of time, minis, so I want to get into the other story, which is kind of big, which is on another radio station, Inception Radio. Peter Robbins has finally come out and said that, you know, one of the rendalschrom Forest witnesses, the first Larry Warren, has been deceitful and he no longer believes him and doesn't know you know, and feels out to that he can't be trusted, which is kind of something actually many of
us have felt. I even asked Nick Pope about it. You know, I've had them both on to talk about kind of these these topics which have been very sensitive, and I've talked to Nick Pope why he didn't include Larry Warren in his book, and Nick Pope says, because you know, we were using people who had more than one witness who saw whatever they saw, which I think makes a lot of sense, and Larry Warren doesn't. It makes a lot of claims that aren't substantiated or backed up by anybody else.
And then, of course Colonel Halt has not had the nicest things to say about Larry Warren. But finally, and there are some other legal issues and other issues that really, you know, we're not the type of of radio show to bring out dirty laundry, but there's more stuff back there that lies that he's been caught up in and threats that he's made to people who have
called him out on it. So finally Peter has said, you know, finally, I'm I've seen enough that I am agreeing with pretty much all the other a lot of the other researchers out there that, and he's been so close to Larry and Peter Robbins is a great guy. He's a really good person, and so I know this must have been hard for him. He's just being a loyal friend, I mean, I think is what he's been trying to do. And so that's kind of interesting. Some other news in
the ufology world. Well, good for Peter. Now, I consider him a friend. He's a lot of people do, yes, But you know, I saw I haven't spoken to him in a while, but I did see something that he posted on his Facebook page a while back in reference to what you're talking about. Very it was a very you know, blunt,
short phrase. But but yeah, I'm really really glad because that's been kind of a wedge I think against or in between Peter in the community a little bit, because a lot of people kind of knew what was going on. Yeah, good for him. I agree with you, yep, So good for him. So that is the UFO news. I'm done. That's good, Okay, cool. Well, I know you're a busy fella and you got i'm sure lots of cool stuff to do today. But thanks so much
for coming in and joining us on the news again. My pleasure as always. All right, we'll talk to you later. Yeah, take care. Okay, let's go ahead and talk to Nick. I am happy to welcome back Nick Redfern. You were on the show not too long ago. But you keep belting out these books so quickly. I guess I do. So your new one. Now you have a new one. And this is highly controversial, especially for the fiftieth anniversary, and it's about Roswell, and essentially
now this is a sequel. Yeah, that's right. I did a book back in two thousand and five called Body Snatches in the Desert, and this one sort of twelve years later. It's not sort of an updated version of the originally, it's sort of, you know, a brand new book that looks into, as you said, a very controversial area, the idea that Roswell may not have been a UFO event, but sort of more of like a dark and disturbing experiments, domestic experiments, you know, human experiments.
And of course you know, I mean it creates a lot of controversy, mainly because within the field of euthology, Roswell is seen as the number one case. You know, for many people, it's untouchable. It's like the holy grail of euthology. But you know, I've always been of the opinion that we need to look at each case on its own merits and look for
date evidence and not get caught up in belief systems. So but you know, the thing I've always stressed with this book, and as I stressed with the original book for the first book, I should say, this isn't sort of an exercise in debunking and saying that, you know, everybody in upology is stupid, they couldn't get it right. It's nothing like that at all. It's not like a debunking debunking the extraterrestrial angle. It's demonstrating to the
reader how and why I think it's possible that there's another explanation. You know, I'm not sort of saying, you know that Roswell researchers are just fools, they've got it wrong. There's nothing like that approach at all, because you know that that's not what the book's about. It just presents an alternative theory and I put it out for people, and you know, you see where the pennies drop, so to speak, in terms of what people think
of it. What the you know, the support in data is and are we try and figure out you know, we're all we're all looking to solve Roswell. You know that, because he could be the case that makes all breaks uthology depending on which way it goes, you know, mm hmmm. Yeah, And I I agree with you. Even with Roswell that I like,
for instance, I have not settled on a definite conclusion. I think there's some interesting stuff we had at the beginning of the year, Kevin randall On with his new book, and of course there are rumors that he had changed his mind. He hadn't, but he was doing like you said, he was taking a step back, taking a new look at all the evidence
to say, you know, what do we have here? And he admits that, you know, he is in you know, someone who's known as a Roswell ce researchers is not certain even though he's probably one of the you know, highly knowledgeable and all the evidence that's been collected so far. Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, I like his new book, but I do know that it did surprise some people when, as you said, you know, he's not sort of on the fence as such,
he's you know, he's looking at it impartially. But I think that if you read his book, the one area in which he has sort of turned away from to a significant degree is on the issue of the alien bodies. You know, a lot of the accounts that were previously seen as supportive.
You know, Kevin has actually sort of walked away from a lot of those witnesses and those stories that that is sort of the I guess, you know that the bigger aspect within that particular book of his that really does sort of demonstrate how he's like, well, you know, let's just see where he goes, because I'm not satisfied that this testimony, you know, is worth what we thought it was h right, So so now here you come and now and I don't know why, And I think that's because I've always wanted
to talk to you further about this aspect or your theory here, and I don't think we ever have. And I for some reason, and maybe it was someone who had told me this, and maybe it's not true, I felt that you. I was told that you were disillusioned or you had changed your mind about this theory. So when this book came out to further support this idea, you know, I was really interested to hear more about it, So I guess no, No, I haven't sort of switched back to
change in my mind. What I've always been brutally honest and said is that, you know, over the years, I've interviewed quite a few retired people from the military, et cetera who related this story to me and also to other sources as well. But I've been brutally honest in saying, if you asked me, in all honesty, can I prove it's not a disinformation program? No, I can't. You know, a lot of researchers won't say things like that because they think it weakens their case, But it doesn't weaken
your case. If you've been brutally honest and you say, you know, people ask me could I have been lied to? Meaning me, could I have been lied to? I could have been lied to. I cannot deny that. And that's also one reason to put the story out to see if we can get more people to come through who can vindicate it, or you know, somebody may welcome forward and say, well, I was in charge of a program to put out of disinformation program and the program was the one
you're talking about. So in other words, I haven't changed my personally changed my views, but I am totally open to the idea that there could be other kind of scenarios and people pulling the strings behind the scenes that we're not seen and we're not getting a clear picture, you know. And I think that's an important thing to note, is you can have faith and strength in your theory, but you know, to say that I'm one hundred percent sure
without actually having proved is ridiculous. You know, it becomes a belief system. You know, we can say it's one hundred we know for shoot, there aliens crashed or didn't when we've got proof. If we haven't got proof, which we don't have. You know, the ironic thing is we don't have literal proof in the terms proof is meant. We don't have proof for
any theory. I mean, ironically, even the Air Force admitted that when they said they thought it was a Mogul balloon, they openly admitted in their report they didn't find a single document to support or to prove that a Moga balloon came down on the ranch. That was just their theory based on what they concluded after looking at the data. So you know, you have to if you're honest with yourself and you know you have to and you've got a theory, you have to admit it's a theory. Mm hmm. Well great.
So now that we've got probably I would guess that there's a portion, maybe a good portion of the listeners who don't know your theory, so they're wondering what the heck is going on nine here, So let's get into that. Yeah, what theory are you proposing here? Okay, Well, just before I get to the thee when you said it's sort of my theory.
That's one of the things I address in the book because the same story that I got was actually given to me, excuse me, given to Popular Mechanics magazine in nineteen ninety nine, and Leonard Stringfield, an early crashed UFO re, said he was given the story in nineteen ninety and John Keel wrote about it in ninety one and ninety three. But the big difference is that I was the only one who wrote a book on it. So I guess people
do because the book's more visible, people kind of tie me to. But actually the story has been out there for quite a while, but most people
dismissed it. They said well, they just couldn't be. But basically, to sort of sort of boil it down to the basic theory, if we go back to the final stages of the Second World War, now, just before the Japanese were defeated, when the bombs were dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the Japanese were bragging that they were going to build these huge balloons that could cross the Pacific and they would basically be kind of like Kamakazi balloons.
In the Second World War, the Japanese did in kind of so called invade the United States with balloons. They were called FuGO balloons, and they fired something where in the region of like nine thousand of these balloons towards the US, and only a very small number reached the US, and unfortunately, in one case the bombs exploded and killed a number of people. But these FuGO
balloons were small and flimsy. But at the end of the Second World War, the Japanese were bragging that they were going to build these huge balloons which
would be able to cross the Pacific. They would have these gondolas attached below them, and they would have these relatively short and light guys who were effectively take part in the Kamakazi Mission. Now, at the end of the Second World War, when Japan and Germany were defeated, a lot of German scientists rocket scientists were brought to the United States and specifically to New Mexico under what
was called Operation paper Clip. Well, a lot of people don't realize that there was also a Japanese equivalent of Operation paper Clip, where a lot of the Japanese scientists working on these highly advanced balloon programs were also brought over. And the story that I was given by this was between nineteen excuse me, between two thousand and one and one. Of the latest stories come from just
the last couple of years that've been the book. But the original stories for the first book came to me between two thousand and one and two thousand and four, and the people, these elderly people from the military and the intelligence world, said that what came down was one of these gigantic Japanese balloons that was being test flown with this device attached below it, which had a crew on board, and that there was some sort of aerial mishap where the balloon,
which may be due to the feu Et cetera, exploded in high in the sky and you had this huge amount of this massive amount of this balloon debris floating down on the ranch in one location. Now, because of the wind and the material being very light, you know, it had rained down according to to the wind patterns. But the craft itself that was there was attached to this massive balloon array because of its weight, it just plummeted down
vertically. And they said, that explains why even the UFO believers for oswell, say, there were two crash sites. There was one where you had this strange foil like material strewn for like six hundred feet, and then you had another area a couple of miles away, but still on the Foster ranch where you had this craft. And the people I interviewed said, essentially, that's what happened. That the balloon exploded in the sky, shattered and rained
down. And we're not talking like you know, the blue and anything flimsy. We're talking possibly something like the German zeppelins that we used in the first like a massive balloon and all the foil at one side, because it just rained down according to weather patterns and the wind patterns. As I said, and you know, it's very light and then the craft comes down just vertically. So that was basically the story. When you say the people you interviewed,
you mean like alleged government insiders. Yes, yeah, it was a communa. One of them worked in the medical community in a place called Oak Ridge, which was involved in the atomic energy programs back in the forties and also on the atomic bomb program. One of them she worked at oak Ridge in a medical capacity. Two of the guys were in the intelligence community and one was in the military, and they were all they all knew each other,
and one of the people I got to speak to. It's kind of a long winded story how I actually got to speak to the woman, but I tell the story in the new books how I met an interviewed her in the summer of two thousand and one in la and then she put me in touch with these three other ones that they all kind of worked together on this
program in varying degrees. And so this was the story that as it existed until sort of two thousand and five, when Body Snatchers in the Desert came out the first book, and since then sort of the twelve years that have gone by since then, there's a lot of new material. For example, well respected Australian research at Keith Basterfield unknowing to me. When Body Snatchers was
published, this was in the summer of two thousand and five. It was July two thousand and five, and because it was a controversial story, Simon and sus to the publisher kept it very much under wraps between two thousand and three and two thousand and five, which was when I started writing it and then and then publishing it. But what I didn't realize until after the book was published, Keith Basterfield contacted me and said, well, I've just read
your book and I was actually given an almost identical story. And so I spoke to Keith and he put me in touch with his source and he interviewed the same source as well extensively. And this was a British guy who had emigrated to Australia and his father was in British intelligence and he told him basically the same story about this gigantic balloon and this test craft that was strung below
it, which was basically like a hybrid type device. You would have this massive balloon and these sort of lifting body glidercraft could detach from this giant balloon, it basically sort of save on fuel and they could the balloons could travel at incredibly high heights, and when the glider was detached, you know,
the pilots would have sort of perfect delivery system. And so when I spoke to Keith and then spoke to his source, he told me that basically the same story, that this was one of these gigantic balloons and this craft attached to it below. And they all kind of also told the same story and
why the whole issue was hidden. You know, you'd wonder why actually hide the issue of a gigantic balloon and an aircraft coming down, And they all said it wasn't so much the nature of the operation that was being hidden or they had to be hidden. It was the fact that, like with the paper Clip program with the Germans, a secret deal had been done with the Japanese right after the war. And what they said, the big concern was
it wasn't the experiment. It wasn't any super secret nature in relation to the craft itself or any sort of amazing revolutionary technology. It was just how it reperceived if somebody looked into it. And it backtracked to a deal with Japan, and they said that was why it was all hidden, Because what made it controversial is that a lot of the people working on the balloon programs were
also attached to a Japanese program called Unit seven three to one. Unit seven three one did sort of terrible experiments on people in Japan, and you know they I mean in the name of science as they saw it, but they did high altitude experiments and high pressure low pressure experiments on people to figure out, how, you know, in the as technology developed and the higher we
get in the atmosphere, out the atmosphere, how people would respond. So Unit seven three to one was sort of like a no go area officially, but a lot of the people brought over were actually attached to it. Now, what's interesting is that the guy who oversaw Unit seven three to one was
a high ranking officer named Charles Willoughby. It turns out that Charles Willoughby was a very close friend of Philip Corso, who wrote the book the day after Roswell in nineteen ninety seven, and a couple of people who I interviewed claimed to know that Corso's book was a deliberate endorsement of the UFO angle to hide the more controversial story that he'd be or that he knew through Willoughby of this
sort of Japanese collusion, you know, with this classified program. So you know, there are some strange threads like that when you find Corso in his good friends with the guy who ran the program to get all the Japanese blue material and high altitude material over not just to the US, but to New Mexico as well. So you know, it's kind of strands and things like that that you know, the sort of the meat of the story, so to speak. So you think that what came out in late nineties or or
was that well it was the summer of ninety seven. It was brought out to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of Roswell, and so you think fifty years later they still wanted to keep that secret so badly that or at least Courso did that. They Yeah, yeah, emphasized the alien angle, you know, to the ultimate degree. Now whether or not that's true, you know that
again, you know, I'm open minded. I can only tell the story as it was told to me, and also you know, provide back up data, you know, I mean, for example, I was told about this Japanese equivalent to the paper Clip program. You know, I mean most people say, I've heard of Operation paper Clip, which was which you know, you may have heard of it yourself. It's a legitimate program where when the Germans were defeated, the was that the Russians would get their hands on
all the German scientists and all the rocket tree technology. So it was a kind of like doing a deal with the devil where we had to grab those German scientists and all the technology, even though many of them were sort of ardent Nazis, because if we didn't, but the Russians would have got them, and in a worst case scenario, you know, they may have perfected atomic weapons before we did and then launched them. So it's kind of like
doing you know, the definitive Faustian Pact now. So in other words, the idea that there was a Japanese equivalent isn't that far out. But as I said, you know, I was able to take the stories they told me so far, which was to confirm that you know, all these files on Unit seventy three one were brought out, but you can actually now read them at the National Archives in Maryland now of course they don't mention Roswell,
otherwise we would all know the answer. But the files that talk about all the you know, the personnel being you know, sort of turned a blind eye, and in terms of you know, they were prosecuted as war criminals. The technologies brought over the papers and excuse me. But then it was a case of me trying to think, well, okay, that's an interesting story. What can we find that might support it. One is this, you know, this claim they made about Corso and Willoughby, And when I
looked into it, sure enough they were friends for years. They worked intimately on not just intelligence programs, but disinformation programs together as well, which is kind of an interesting thing now. As I said, the other angle, which was completely separate from me, was that in nineteen ninety nine, Popular Mechanics published an article by a guy named James Peters, and he's and Public
Mechanics, you know, a very credible magazine. He said that in ninety seven, excuse me that ninety nine that they had been told are the forthcoming release of documents which would show that there was a Japanese equivalent to Roswell, and some of the bodies were these smaller Japanese people that were going to be used in one of these flights and this gigantic balloon, etcetera, etcetera. Now, of course we know that no such file surface, but what did
surface instead was the Air Force's crash test dummy report instead. But in other words, there were long before I even started to write the book. I didn't write the book till two thousand and three, published in two thousand and five, and the first person I interviewed was in two thousand and one, but four years before, in nineteen ninety seven, Popular Mechanics was always already
on the trail of this Japanese angle. So you know, in other words, there are these are kinds of things I look for when you're investigating something controversial, the threads and leads that come not just to me but come to other people, and where the sources are clearly different as well. And sort of just one other angle on this, which takes us back to the alien
bodies. One of the guys who everybody acknowledges was that Roswell. At the at the time, he's actually the yearbook, you know, the basic yearbook, was a guy named Melvin Brown, and he was one of the people
who's been tied to the issue of seeing the alien bodies. But he told his family, and this is a direct exact quote he told his family quote that the bodies he saw could have passed for Chinese, that his exact words could have passed for Chinese, which doesn't sound like your average alien gray you know though. So again it things like this. Now, as I said, what does it mean? What does it prove? He doesn't prove anything,
because nothing about Roswell is provable. But what he does for me is it pushes me on, even if as just as a lone wolf how to speak, to try and get to the bottom of what this Japanese thread actually
means. Well, when I find interesting about it is one that, you know, the Air Force for some odd reason, uh you know, like you said earlier, Kevin Randall even argues that there aren't really great witnesses when it comes to the bodies, but for some weird reason, the Air Force decided to try to explain away the body issue, which almost gives credence to
that there was some sort of of bodies there. And so your explanation or your this theory would would explain that the other thing is is that, you know, even when it comes to Jesse Marcel Marcela, the intelligence officer was first on the scene to look at the material, didn't see bodies, and his son who looked at the material, the material they describe is not all
that incredibly foreign. It is foreign and that it has foreign writing on it, and they could not identify it. And they allegedly, you know, could it would self repair itself. But it almost sounds like, you know, it doesn't sound necessarily like Mogul balloon, but it sounds something maybe a little more advanced, but something possibly human. Well, yeah, and you know, I mean, this is one of the big areas obviously of debate, is you know, why was the Air Force's report on the crash test
domies even put out. You can absolutely one hundred percent correct when you say that, you know, I mean, for example, the first report, the Mogul report, which came out in ninety four, the Air Force said words to the effect of, you know, we don't address the issue of bodies in the book in this right now report because Mogile balloons didn't have crews
and that was left and that literally was how it was left. But then in ninety seven they felt the or at ninety six, I should say, because the report came out in ninety seven, they felt the onus was on them to try and explain the accounts of bodies, which, as you say, head, you know, it does suggest that, you know, the Air Force is effectively acknowledging that some sort of body was found, even if
it was just the body of a dummy. You know, if you can have a body of a dummy, you know, you know, so that that was kind of odd. Now again, one of the theories that was put to me was that within the sort of intelligence community there's this silent battle
to get the truth out about Roswell. And one of the one of the theors that was put to it was the idea that the crash test dummy report was put out to sort of jump the gun against anyone who might say, well, you know, there was this sort of whole Japanese angle, and the Air Force would already have its crash test dummy reports in place to say
no, sorry, this is it. You know, anything else doesn't hold water, you know, So they were kind of preempting anything else potentially coming out because they knew that if something else did come out, it would be related to the bodies. So but again that's you that's here say that's rumor, so you know, we cannot confirm that. But I mean, what is interesting about the you know, the so called memory metal as it's become
known. One of the things that's important to note is that in sort of forty five forty six, a lot of the balloons that were being flown were just sort of regular polythene balloons. But in late forty six and early forty seven, the balloons that the military were using, they changed the actual design of them. So in other words, if you'd seen a military balloon sort
of forty five forty six, you would have seen a polythene balloon. But in early forty seven, what they did they laminated their huge balloons with aluminum. And these laminated alluminum balloons, effectively most people hadn't seen them. Now when you wadded them up, it wasn't like definitive memory metal, where it returned to its one hundred percent original shape with no creases or lines or anything like that, which is what some of the witnesses have said. But it
does open itself back up. It's not like, you know, if you ever shed paper and you wadded up in your hand, you just got a ball of paper. It wasn't like that. It did open up again. And so if people had seen in the desert, you know, in forty six, they would have seen polythene balloons. For early forty seven onwards, they would have seen balloon polythine balloons, but coated with aluminum, which they would not have seen before. So they might have thought, well, this
is kind of odd. Now. The other thing that a lot of people either don't know or forget is that if you read the original newspaper interviews with Matt Brazil, the rancher who found all the debris or you know, he died in the early sixties, so nobody in the community, to the UFO community, was ever able to interview. But if you read the original local newspaper reports in Roswell, you know when Brazil was essentially talking to the local
press there, he just as an off the cost statement. He admitted that on two previous occasions it found military balloons on the ranch, and this is effectively the third thing that had come down on the ranch, and those other two were weather devices, but there were military weather devices, so you know, you think about it. Within just a couple of years before Roswell, Brazil had already recovered two military devices on the ranch, and then something else
comes down, which is superficially balloon Like. You have to wonder, what are the chances of two military balloons coming down on the ranch and then an alien spacecraft two years later coming down on the ranch which kind of looks like a balloon, you know. So you know, it's funny you say that too, because I know one of the people who was part of one of the Rise World digs, I think it was Chuck Szukowski even oh, he said he found a balloon. They actually found a weather balloon when they were
at the site looking for stuff. So yeah, made me that area the current the wind currents bring things over there. Well yeah yeah. The other thing, of course, the Faster Ranch as it was known back then. I mean, it's a gigantic ranch. You know, it's not like a couple of fields. It's huge. So you know, if something came down with you know, I mean, the story of for example, the debris site and the body site, and also the crash site of the craft.
I mean, their acknowledge has been sort of two miles apart and you're still on the same ranch, you know, two miles. Yeah. And the other thing, of course, is that things were dropping out of the sky then because you had, you know, a lot was going on in New Mexico. You had the Alamagordo Base where a lot of test lights were taken place. You had White Sands, you know, where the German rockets are
being tested and other German devices. You also had Los Alamos. You know, it was at the forefront of the you know, the Atomic energy program, the Manhattan Project as well. So you know, New Mexico was a hotbed of military classified activity in you know, the immediate years after the Second World War. So you know that there's a lot to think about because of the stakes you know that apply to Roswell in terms of how it has been
elevated to the number one case. And I think you know, ufology is at fault in actually having a case that is perceived as the number one because you know, it's like the old added, the bigger they are, you know, the harder they formed, right, And I don't mean that from like a gloating perspective. I just mean that if you elevate one case to be the one that is going to crack the whole thing wide open. You can be in a very dangerous position if that one case that you've elevated falls
apart. You know, it's like euthology wouldn't be having a nervous breakdown if it was proved that, say, the Secoro case wasn't extra terrestrial, or if a famous abduction case wasn't extra terrestrial. But if it was proved aliens didn't crash at Roswell, I think there would be major, major sort of disaster within eupology will almost be like a breakdown. Well, I think you're exactly correct. I think you make a great point because it has been for
the reasons that you said. You know, it's been lafted as this the number one case, and it's the most well known case throughout the world.
If it were to be definitively discovered to be something mundane or human, a top secret project or what have you, then exactly the perception throughout the world, especially of the layman who's just maybe got some light interest and is aware of Roswell, all of a sudden, their whole perception of upology will change to be like, oh, another one that's been figured out yeah, and I think, you know, if Roswell was just seen as like a very
interesting and intriguing case with lots of threads, like say, for example, the cash events, you know, things like that, or the flying triangles, uphology wouldn't fall apart if those events were shown to be mutine, which actually I don't think they were mundane. So I think, you know, there's there's a lot of ground to be covered here, but also there are a lot of steaks, you know, in terms of what all this means, and you know what where it's all going to lead. Will it lead
anywhere? You know? Or are we just going to be forever, you know, stuck with multiple different theories. It's a weather balloon and a mogul balloon, it was a Soviet device. You know, there are all sorts of theories. And you know, I think either one or two things is going to happen. Either one day we'll know for sure, or the further and further things go on, it'll become like a UFO equivalent of Jack the Ripper, you know, like the old story that everybody's heard about with lots
of strands and the different theories who Jat the Ripper was? But we can never solve it because it's too far gone and nobody's left. Roswell now is in danger of becoming like a euthological jat the Ripper in terms of nobody's left hardly now. We can't find any official files. We've hit a brick wall. What do we do and without being defeatist unless something surfaces officially or by accidents, which could be possible. You know, it's kind of like we
really are at that, you know, the sort of door. And I think there is a potential there is a piece of evidence that may potentially shed light on all of this, and you cover this in the book. I think the photo that that photo of General Raimi and du Boy or where they're holding up the material, which the Air Force admits he did, he covered it up that he was showing regular weather balloon material even though that was not the material that was retrieved at the ranch, and the Air Force admits that
in their first explanation. But so he was covering up something, and even like you said, they admit they don't know what for sure, definitively, but in that photo, I was just I want to get to the photo real quick. It's just that that you know, he's holding this memo and it seems like you can make out some words, maybe like disc and maybe victims of. But those words that it seems like we can read do not
can work for your theory as well. And I'm hopeful that down the road we will be able to have some more technology that we'll be able to decipher those words and it may then tell us. And how interesting would it be if it if it tells us, it's it's like a fu goo too or something like that. Well, yeah, what's interesting about that memo For people
who don't know about it, it's basically it's a general raim. He's holding this memo in his hand, and today's dee blurring technology has allowed us to sort of blow up the image to where we can actually make some of the words, and and it really actually does like in one as if in one section he says the victims of the wreck, you know, you can actually
make a good case, that's what it says. But and I talk about this in the book as to how you know, those who believe aliens crashed will say, you know, that's the proof victims of the wreck, we know the aliens. But as I point out in the book. You know, I would have thought if this, if it was a UFO that came down out of the blue, piloted by creatures from another world, they would have said something like the beings in the wreck, the crew in the wreck,
the pilots, the entities, the aliens, the spacemen. To me, using the term victims, that has like a very human, an almost like emotional tone in it. You do know what I mean? Just using the term victim, it kind of you know, you don't see very often references in military documents that have kind of an emotional aspect to them, but that to me at least. You know, other people are going to think
differently, But I honestly do think. You know, as I said, this thing came out of the blue, strange bodies, nobody knew what they were. I think they would have said something like the crew of the beings, the spacemen. As I said, the term victim kind of does have like an emotional, human aspect to it as far as I you know,
from my perspective at least, Yeah, I agree. And the thing is is, if you weigh these things, if you say, because I think it's unlikely that there would be a project that you know, from the forties that is still so important that it remained secret, that they allow these mythologies to go on with Rswell and they still won't tell us and maybe even you know, are even as recent as the late nineties created disinformation to perpetuate this.
That's a long shot. That's hard to believe. However, it's also hard to believe that in advanced extraterrestrial civilization crashed one of their craft and the desert. So which is more likely. It's probably I think it wouldn't be too out there to argue that even though it's improbable, it's probably still more likely that it would be a you know, a secret project that is still
secret, rather than an extraterrestrial space vehicle. Yeah, and the one thing that really does that people a lot of people never think about for the most part. You know, if we look at you know, UFO stories, abductions and things like this, there's good evidence that, you know, one thing I would stretch, you know, a full on UFO believer, I'm
just not convinced about Roswell. But if you look at the history of the UFO subject, you have reports of aliens walking through walls, you know, stopping the launch of missiles and scrambling missile code words, you know, numbers in silos, capturing aircraft, kidnapping pilots. But they couldn't somehow retrieve six hundred feet worth of weird foil and a couple of bodies which was sitting out
there for a few days. Yeah, it's kind of like if these extraterrestrials whatever they are, you know, because there is a legitimate UFO phenomenon, there's no doubt about that. If they can, as we told, walk through walls, kidnap people, kidnap planes, et cetera, et cetera, why would they allow us to allow that technology and the bodies to fall into our hands. It would be so easy if they can perform all those acts.
And this is before the military even got on the site. They could easily have just recovered it because history has shown that they do have incredible skills whatever is behind the phenomenon, So that is some that always puzzles me. And my theory is, well, the reason why Aliens didn't recover the wreckage is because Aliens weren't responsible for the wreckage in the first place, right, And I feel like if it was aliens, I agree with you one hundred
percent that they could have retrieved that if they wanted to. My guess would be that if it really was Aliens, that they wanted us to have it, and maybe they wanted us to have it to see technology and see what we would do with that. Yeah. But actually one of the interesting theories the idea of like a staged alien crash to try and present themselves as vulnerable and to present us with something that might kickstart our culture, so to speak,
to another level. You know. So people have looked at it both ways, and people will continue to look at it both ways, you know. And I'm happy to be the lone wolf guy who's sort of pursuing the angle that everybody hates, you know. But I don't mind, you know, under way, I've got thick skin. I'll argue my position on why I think I'm right in the same way that if I sit next to you know, Kevin on at a conference, pill you know, forcibly present his
arguments as well. And I think that's that's what uthology should actually be. There's nothing worse than just kind of, you know, kind of saying the right thing to the right person because you want to get on their conference next year or whatever. Now that to me, that's not what youuthology is about. It be about sort of, you know, sort of just hanging out with the people who think you can get further in the subject. Now, if you've got something you believe in and put it out there and if people
like it, fine, if people don't, or that's fine too. You know, uthology needs to have a thick skin in terms of debating these kind of things and not just you know, just sharing cool stories because they're exciting. You know, we need to get beyond that. Well. And I think the best researchers, the researchers I certainly like to interact with most are are pretty good that way. They debate. They certainly hold strong opinions at
some times about things, but at least they're open to debating. Like Stanton and I certainly disagree on stef Stam Friedman when it comes to oswell or other things. And but he's the type. He's an example of someone who because he's got some pretty out there ideas, but he will he loves to debate these ideas, but still remain close as far as colleagues and everything, and
and I think the best people out there. And that's why people shouldn't be afraid to not stand their ground, because you're gonna get you're going to be respected. You're going to be respected by people like us who love new information. Yeah. Yeah, so you know, I think, let's see where this story goes. And I'm just going to keep digging into it and follow all the threads, all the leads, and we'll see what happens. You
know, maybe be like the rest of authology, that nothing happens. We just constant hit a brick wall, or yeah, you know, maybe I mean again, it could just be that it actually comes out by accidents, you know, not by design, not by a researcher finding something, not
by the government disclosing. Maybe there's some old guy who was at Roswell or one of the other bases where the material is taken to, who happens to have seventy five eighty pages of original documentation that tells part of the story, you know, and it's prove and it's forensically analyzed, et cetera, et cetera, and the conclusion is, yeah, these are the original files that could actually happen. I think, do you think have been going on,
you know, mm hmm. Do you think the reason that something like this would be would remain secret is that me it shows the government or people regarding working on this as culpable, maybe even the Division of Foreign Technology who Courso worked for, was culpable and some sort of crime or well, yeah, I mean nobody excuse me, I have I said directly, you know, crime, But people said the line was crossed, you know, with some
of these high altitude balloon experiments and in some cases allegedly that in some of these events that went on in New Mexico in forty seven, which apparently wasn't just the Roswell event that was the only one that was found out because that was the one where the rancher got there before the military, But reportedly there were others but where people were used against their wills, supposedly like prisoners were taken from state prisons and things like that. Now, if that's true,
that alone, you know, would be a reason to hide this. And if you look back, you know, there have been some very controversial human experimentation in the past mk Ultra, the Tungusky experiments, radiation experiments that the Clinton administration looked into in the early nineties. So anything like that I think would be perceived as highly dangerous to release. But on the other hand, you know, nothing like that has ever surfaced shed in relation to Roswell.
So either some of the people tell me the material was just shredded, burned and destroyed for fear that it might come out, or it is sitting in some dark, dusty archive that maybe is so well guarded that the people guarding it today actually don't know what the guarding. You know, the ideal way
to hide it is just don't tell the guards what's behind them. So you know, it's there are reasons that are viable when it comes to why the cover up would continue, but also there are viable reasons why we might not be told if it was aliens, you know, So it were kind of again in that sort of he said, she said, kind of thing, you know, mm hm. And you're going to be presenting this in Roswell the fiftieth anniversary event coming up here in just a few weeks really at the
end of June. Yeah, and apparently there's gonna be like a dommy made and I should be burned in effigy down the main street of Oh, you
weren't. You weren't about that, but yeah, joking aside, I'm doing actually the same lecture, but I think I'm doing it twice while I'm there, and and I'll be doing to like a full PowerPoint presentation showing the various you know, photographs of these balloons and some of the documents and the files and and really sort of you know, start at the beginning and then follow
the threads through that. You know that from my perspective, sort of confirm or vindicate at least, you know, the story, even if we don't have proof. So, you know, it'll be interesting to see what people have to say, because I mean, when body snatchers came out in two thousand and five, I actually spoke at the conference in two thousand and seven for the sixtieth anniversary, and you know, there was no I was actually
quite pleasantly surprised. Nobody was sort of overly critical. They all kind of sat there and listened. Most people disagreed, but you know, most people also thought it was an interesting fear, and they thought it was far more plausible than the idea of crash test dummies or chimpanzees or anything like that, and a few of them did say to him, said words to the effect are, well, I still think it was extraterrestrial, but if it wasn't,
then it was definitely yours. You've got the runner up. Well, you know, but my goal is, you know, is just to get to the heart of what it actually is. You know, I think I'm on the right path. But I say that because I'm honestly enough to say that a lot of people won't say I think this. They you know, they think it's not that they're done well the way to do it, but it is the way to do it, you know, if we're going to be brutally honest with each other as to what we know versus what we don't
know. Right and now finally for people, because I know that there's going to be at least a few listeners who are going to be going to right as well. There's three different speaking venues and you're not You're going to be in a different one than I am. Do you know where you're going to be? You know, I've got totally confused over this. I know it's going to be it's like in a mile. Does that mean anything to you?
I think it does because I think they only have one more, and that's where they usually have the comic con, so yeah, it's probably there. Yeah, that's the one that's where I did it in two thousand and seven, So I'll be at that one. And I said, I'll be speaking on the book twice, and I'll be bringing a bunch of copies with me and for people who might might want it earlier. The book's already out. It's called The Roswell UFO Conspiracy. You can get it off Amazon.
It's already available in both paperback and kindle. Awesome, Well, thank you so much for coming back on the show and sharing information about your book just in time for Roswell. So people know where to take their rotten fruit. Yeah, hopefully not. Yeah, I don't want my clothes staying with who knows what. Well, we'll have to hang out at some point through and you'll have to come by our venue and vice versa, and we'll have to visit everybody, and so that's going to be a lot of fun. So
come see me and Nick out in Roswell everybody. Actually, I've got to go throwing arms, so if anybody does throw anything, get them back. So yeah, just catch it. And throw it right exactly, take you walk back at him. All right? Thank you so much. I thank and thank you so much to Nick Redford for joining us once again on Open Mind GUFO Radio. Be sure to check out his book. I know some of you are kind of going, uh, what the heck? Uh wasn't
Roswell aliens? Well? Maybe not, I guess, And maybe Nick convinced you a bit, or maybe you're on the entry, or maybe you say on Nick's crazy, there's no way at uh, that's not it. But you know, either way, I think you ought to get the book and read more about why he believes this or why he actually is exploring this idea and why he thinks this may be a possibility. I think is the more accurate way to say it. The book is The Roswell UFO Conspiracy, Exposing
a shocking and sinister secret. And you can find this at Amazon dot com or you could go to his website. Nick Ferns are Nick Redferns World of what ebvs? Actually it's Nick Redferns World of whatever. But if he was a younger gentleman, like a younger like my niece, he probably would have said, what ebvs? Because that's kind of what the kids do. Some of you may be cakes or probably many of you are older, like uh, Nick and myself, but so so you might not be aware of that,
but that's what the kids say, what evs. So if you know you're talking to a younger person and you want to tell them whatever, try what ebvs. First of all, they're gonna understand it, and then they're gonna think you're cool and maybe even funny, so you'll be able to bond a little bit there. Anyway, Yeah, there's that's neither here nor there. But you can go to Nick redfern site Nick Redfern's World of Whatever. Just google Nick Redfern or go to Nick Redfern fourteen dot blogspot dot com and
Nick Redford fourteen dot blogspot dot com. Fourteen is kind of a study of different things like paranormal stuff. If you're not aware of that, that's what that term is. See, the older people are going to know what forty en means even if they don't know what EV's is. So, you know, educating the younger and the older so we can get get along together. But anyway, yeah, great stuff. I think Nick is always cool.
Nick is always great and everybody loves Nick, So even if some people get frustrated with this Roswell theory that he has kind of been speaking to or writing about over the years, but you know, I think it says a lot for him to be bold enough to follow up with it, to keep on it because he thinks there's something actually there, then just to kind of bend to pressure and just drop it all. So and Nick is writing stuff like crazy. Who knows. We may have him on and another three months to
talk about another book that he's got out. I'm sure he's working on something. So thanks again Nick for coming on the show. As we talked about, we're both going to be out in Roswell in just a few weeks, so I hope you come out and see us. I'll be speaking at for the Roswell Daily Record. They're going to be holding their event at I think it's called Bob's Steakhouse, but it's a steakhouse that's where the sally Portian Best
Western used to be. But you can find this all out by just googling the Roswell Festival, or if you go to open mindstat tv and you go to the events page, you're going to see more information about that there, so come see us. You know, it's the seventieth anniversary. I know some of my friends here in the Phoenix area that haven't been out there for years are going to be out there, and you can come visit the newspaper. If you were at the UFO Congress in February, you might have seen
the newspaper. The newspaper was there selling some stuff and promoting the event. So you can come out and see those people, and it's going to be a lot of fun. I know Race Hobbes of kg are A was sponsoring that and helping put that together. So maybe you no Race, you can come see Race as well. So it's gonna be fun. Nick Redford speaking at the mall so and I think they're having a comic con kind of thing
out there. They usually do during that period of time. And sometimes there's some stars there, like we got to meet Lieutenant Kim of Star Trek Voyager, so that was a lot of fun. He's a really cool guy. I can't remember his full name right now, but a really cool guy. You could probably find if you look at the history of my Facebook and the pictures a selfie with me and him and some of our friends and stuff. So always a good time, so come out and check us out there.
Otherwise, that great news that we talked about at the top of the show, you can find that at Openminds dot tv. So I do have a link to a story that Lis Spiegel wrote about the Bigelow talk on sixty minutes, you know, when you're talking about UFOs and stuff, So you can
see that, and then I believe he has a link. If not, you can definitely find it on our Facebook of the actual full sixty minutes piece talking to Bigelow about all of his aerospace projects, which are really cool, and you can find tons of stuff it open Minds to that TV about Bigelow. I think it's great, you know, like we talked about in a quote, he said he thinks he's probably the one who's spent the most in the private sector regarding UFOs, and he probably is. I think he's accurate.
He really has backed a lot of research over the years. For the past few decades. He was actually involved with getting Coast to Coast am on the air, getting it created in the first place. So yeah, he's done a lot of stuff for this field, and I, for one, am very thankful. Of course, there are a lot of conspiracy theories about him, but there are a lot of conspiracy theories about everyone. There's not
a whole lot about me that I'm aware of. I know there are a few, but and and they pop up here and there, But a lot of my colleagues have more conspiracy theories. You know what Nick read for. I don't think there's a lot of conspiracy theories around him. Certainly there are about Nick Pope, who we talked about earlier, who worked for the UK. So yeah, some well I'm my friend Ben Hansen. I don't know if there's any conspiracy theories around him, but we'll start some and because it's
always kind of fun to have that. But yeah, unfortunately Bigelow, there's lots of conspiracy theories. And he even talked about how that kind of was difficult to deal with. He's trying to help the field, and here's the field just attacking him and being crazy about it. So shame on you if you're out there spread these conspiracy theories in a malicious manner. So yeah,
I think Bigelow is great. It's and you know this is evidence of it, him being brave enough to spend some time on sixty minutes to continue to support UFO research and to continue to stand by his beliefs when it comes to this sort of thing. I think that's really important, and from the reaction that people have had out there, I think other people feel that way too.
And also, you know, kudos to Peter Robbins for standing up for what is right and for truth, even though he has you know, obviously invested so much in his book and in these version of events at the Rundelpshom Forest. But this is also a testament to what I've been saying about Peter. He's a great person. He really does have a devotion to the truth. He's not trying to scam or trick people. He's just trying to figure things out. And Peter's a wonderful person. So I'm happy to see him
coming forward, even though i know it's difficult for him. But you know, the best thing we can do as friends and as people concerned to stand by him and support him, continue to support him, which I will do. In fact, some of my good friends, some of our volunteers at the UFO Congress, Rob and mary Anne Don and Mary Anne Rob, We're out visiting him in New York just this past weekend. So on their Facebook they've got some pictures and stuff of them hanging out with Peter, because he's
a great guy like that. If you know Peter, even if you barely know him, you know, you say, hey, I'm going to be in New York. I love UFOs. Maybe we can meet and he'll meet you and you can have some coffee and then go take the Stanton Island, you know, very over and see Statue of Liberty or what have you. All of the great things to do in New York with him, and he's a lot of fun. You'll have fun and you'll you will learn to love Peter just like everybody who gets to spend time with him. He's a great
guy. So that's also some pretty cool news. Otherwise, there are other UFO siting stories that were out, you know today even so go to open my TV and check that out. Now when it comes to next week, I'm going to be in on a cruise in the ocean and I'm going to be enjoying it. And as much as I love every single one of you, I'm going to try not to think about you UFOs or aliens. The entire week. I want to relax. I want to enjoy the beach.
I want to enjoy the ocean. I'm sorry if that offends you or upsets you in any way, and you think I should be UFOs and aliens twenty four to seven, I practically am people, So give me a break. Can I have a break for a little while. Even on the weekends, I'm answering emails, I'm taking calls and it's UFO this and UFO that, And everybody knows me as UFOs, so everybody's like, what about UFO this? What about UFO that? And I'm like, hey man, I'm more
than just UFOs. So I'm gonna chill for next week. That means I won't have a show next week. However, I should be able to arrange it. Where as soon as I can come back, and I'm talking like my first day back, I'll have another show for you all to enjoy, because I know you enjoy the shows, and I am just thrilled and super happy to put together these shows and post them online, especially for an audience
who really appreciates it so and I appreciate you all so much. And you know who else I appreciate I appreciate Martin Willis, who shared the news at the beginning of the show, and I also appreciate Caleb Hanks, who does the opening and closed music that I love so much, and you can read more about him on the radio page at open Minds dot tv. So that is it for our show today. We'll have another one in a couple of weeks. Until then, I hope you all have a wonderful couple of weeks
and start to enjoy your summer. Luckily, here in Arizona hasn't gotten too crazy hot. Usually it gets on the way, so we've been able to enjoy it. And those of you in colder areas should be warming up and getting nice and cozy and warm and ready to get your flip flops and your shorts and your t shirts on and cruise around outside. So I hope you all are greatly enjoying your May, and you're soon to be June here and we will talk to you in a couple of weeks. Audios mood Tatoes, your motionless sound