Welcome to UFO LinkedIn Craigier with your host Alejandrol Lujan. I can't do it. I was trying to beat box. There's this guy on YouTube. I saw beat boxing and it was really cool. So I tried to do it and I failed miserably, and I apologize for attempting. Hello. This is
Alejandro Rojas and I am the host of a little show called UFO. And what we do here is we talked about uphosos unidentified flying objects, a term actually coined by the Air Force for what they had been seeing, which was in the forties and in World War two and afterwards and in the fifties, which were strange aircraft, these flying things that were cruising at very quick speeds and exhibiting technology and capabilities that nothing man made had. And they continued to
have these sightings to this day. And I think that's pretty extraordinary. And the military actually concluded in some of their conclusions and facts, there were many papers. In one of their first investigations had a paper that concluded that and this was Project signed, that these UFOs were of an extraterrestrial nature. Well, actually they put up several they posited several theories that being one of them
that they are possibly extraterrestrial. The I think it was Vandenberg actually who said, Hey, what's this. You can't prove this, this is ridiculous, take it out and rewrite the report, and so they rewrote it. But my point being that when skeptics talk about the idea of UFOs possibly being of extraterrestrial origin, it was the Air Force that first came up with this whole
thing with Project sign. You can read a book by Rupelt, who was one of the first people in charge, and he kind of highlights or chronicles this whole event. So it's out there people. I'm sorry, that's the way it is. Now, are they you up? Are they extraterrestrial in nature? I don't know. I really don't. I think it's possible. I mean, it's high technology flying around, but there could be something we can't even imagine that could be creating all of this. So why am I
giving you all of this whole little background spiel. I don't know, possimbly because some skeptics. I saw this little debate and it was on Huffington Post Live and I just wanted to say, you know, they say, you guys jump to this extraterrestrial thing. It's not us, guys who started jumping to this conclusion. It was the Air Force positing this possibility, such as what we do? Who knows what's going on? You don't know, so
how can you say? Also, I'm thinking militarily And I want to thank you, say thank you to mac maloney because he has this radio show called Military x Files and he had me on last week and that was a lot of fun. And mc maloney is a gentleman who wrote a book about UFOs in wartime, so really great book, and we've had him on the show. He's a cool dude. And I guess he's writing another book, a follow up. This book was so successful, he's writing a follow up.
So you're probably not listening because you're watching the presidential debate right Actually, I'm sure you're watching football. But it's only a minority of people who listened to the show live. Anyways, It's a fraction because over the next twenty four hours, there'll be thousands of you have listened to the show. Becauld you mostly podcast it and listen to it at night or on your way to work. And I can see why you'd listened it. My night because I'm so
dreamy, right, But so that's really cool. Why don't I tell you? Why don't I do my job and tell you about our guests this evening? Huh? And this is really exciting. It's exciting for me because even though he's a buddy and I see him around quite a bit, I'm always excited about it. And that is Senior Nick Pope. Nick Pope was actually for a few years. He worked many years for the Ministry of Defense, and we've had him on the show before. In fact, he told us
about how he denied he could not tell us. He said, I asked him, did you have a brief the Queen on UFOs. I'm sorry, but the Official Secretsy Act prohibots me from answering that question. That was my impersonation. It was something similar, But I thought that was a lot of fun. I even said, so, well, that's kind of a fun answer, and he said, yeah, you can get with that from what you want. But the point being that the Queen certainly was interested in the
paranormal, and he did confirm that. But that's been in news stories, but so have many of the other royals out in the UK. But for the Ministry of Defense. What Nick eventually did in the nineties. For a few years he was in charge of the UFO desk where they would look at UFO files, and in fact, he admits he debunked them and tried to spin the stories to make them seem silly, and he's apologized for that. Actually, talse Biegel in a story he wrote for the Huffington Post, and
so that was very nice of him. But since then, what he said is that he thought they were a load of rubbish. I don't know if you used that term, but many people when the UK often do they love that rubbish thing. And he said, well, he found that they weren't
a load of rubbish at all. In fact, he felt that there was something to the phenomena and it does pose a threat to national security when you have these unknown flying objects cruising around and seemingly under intelligent control, demonstrating capabilities that we do not yet possess. So that's cool. I think that is really cool. Some people are like, oh, man, he's working for the government, Dude, what are you talking about. So okay, let
me get this story. So this guy he's working for the government, is out saying that UFOs are worthy of scientific study, that we should take this phenomena seriously. But he's working for the government, you know what. People, that's what we're all trying to do. That's Michels to show, to demonstrate to the public this is something worth taking seriously. And if this guy wants to come out and say that, I am very happy for that.
He is an extremely intelligent gentleman, and perhaps that is why they think that he is, you know, up to no good. Not every intelligent person is up to no good. I'm not up to no good. Sure, maybe I'm not that incredibly intelligent, but I know other intelligent people who are not up to no good, So you can't you know. I think we get this idea of the wildly coyote super genius and we think, oh, man, they're smart guys. They're like that coyote on Roadrunner. They're all
trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Man. But no, some smart people actually have a good heart and they're doing get some good stuff out there, and Nick Pope is one of them. In fact, he is also a journalist and he often consults or at least right about defense and defense issues, and that's in particular is what we're talking about today because there is an incredible story out there, an amazing story that I've been following and I've
been talking to you all about. And this is a story of a young man named Gary McKinnon. I'll give you a little background, so we cover some of this in our interview. I actually interviewed Nick just yesterday, day before yesterday, so this is a pre recorded interview like they all are.
Actually mostly, but Gary McKinnon in the nineties started hacking. He then saw the Stephen Greer disclosure project, where Steven Greer bought a bunch of very credible witnesses to the Washington Press Club and they all said, I know UFOs were real because I was in the Molder and I saw them. They didn't all say that. Some of them said, I worked for the FAA and we tracked them on radar, and then the government came and took my paperwork and
told me to shut up about it. One of the guys said something like that. But they all these stories. They are very credible people. And actually I saw this too and I was amazed, and that got me into this. But Gary McKinnon did decided not to have a podcast like I decided, he decided to learn how to hack. So he learned how to hack.
He wasn't the most skilled hacker really, because he just went into these computers that had their login, login and password passwords, kind of like liv Nielsen on Naked Gun where he goes in he breaks into the computers using that. Well, surprisingly enough, there were people who didn't set their passwords, and maybe not too surprising because you probably have coworkers who don't set their passwords. You may not set your passwords and you're breaking your company's security rules,
and for shame on you for doing that. But then Gary McKinnon got into these computers at Johnson Space Center. He got into one computer because he was one of the Disclosure Project witnesses said they had UFO photos there, and he says he found a photo that looked like a UFO, but he didn't download it because some guy saw him on his computer and kicked him off. So later on he saw a roster that said non human people on this roster, and so that was very curious to him. And then he got busted and
he said because he was stoned and drunk to that. Unfortunately, he couldn't remember the details of what he found. But also he had this awful idea of trying to sell the US government, Hey man, you better give me let me off, or I'll tell all your secrets. And they said, well, you don't really have any secrets, so we're busting you, buddy. Sorry, And so they threw the book at him, and UK people got mad and they got really upset, and this went all the way to
the top, up to and this is ten years ago. He got busted, by the way up to David Cameron, the Prime Minister Obama. Last year we are talking about this, and Obama's kind of like, look, man, this is a headache. Just do whatever the heck you want. So they did, and just this week, you know, the UK government said, okay, we're going to keep him here. Then we're not sending
to him America. We know your prisons are crazy because we know people are doing stuff and then making people drop soap and all this crazy stuff, and we're not going to subject one of our little guys to that. Now, this is an extremely simplified version. We're going to get into more details with Nick, but I wanted to give you some background. So Gary McKinnon now is going to stay home. There's a possibility, because this has been going on ten years, he may get time served and he may go out,
go off scott free. Some of you will be like, this son of gun hacked into American computers. They should throw them down forever. And you may be upset about what's going on here and that you're right. But some of you may be like, well, they should send to Gary home because he's a good little lad, and you're happy about these results. So that's why it's so debatable and why it's such an interesting case that this UFO hacker,
this case should go up to the very top echelons of powers. The most powerful men in the world were deciding what to do with this UFO hacker. So who better to talk to than Nick Bo? So this is great. I don't know who better to talk to, and I'm so happy that he was willing to talk to me about it. However, before we do that, we do something here called UFO News. Welcome to UFO Thinking UFO News. So let's take a look at some of the headlines in the news.
And this is a really cool story by US News and World Report. Now this actually was part of a special issue that came out some months ago, and it was about various astrobiology and some of the exciting things happening in the world of space and space technology. And they decided to give Leslie Kane, my good friend and super genius were Good a call and say, hey, you wrote this cool book UFOs on the record with all of these credible
people, why don't you tell us about UFOs. And so they did a story called UFO Sightings Posed Danger to Aviation And they even had this on this special issue as one of the headlines on the front page along with the NASA stuff and everything, and the story was very serious. They took the issue very serious. They didn't make fun of it, no tongue in cheek. It was an extraordins very important event, just like Leslie King's book getting to
be a New York Times bestseller. So her book is inspiring some people to open their eyes. Nick Pope is actually someone who's helped with this book, but we've been a part of it. So yeah, So they do this story, and they've posted this story from the special issue just this week on the US News and World Report website and the whole thing. So it's like five pages and it's a great story. It's really cool. They talk to Leslie Kane and many of the authors from her book contributors. So I just
you know, how cool I thought it was cool. If you're a listener to the show, you remember I was going off about how cool they had the special issue, how cool that was. So you can imagine my excitement, and I can only imagine your excitement. You're probably jumping up and down in glee, and you know what, I can't blame you, because this
is really cool. So remember you can go to UFO News ufodailynews dot com and go to the UFO news Feed to read about these stories I'm talking to you about, or if you just look at UFO Daily News on Twitter. I actually retweet them on paranormal rptr that Twitter site too. Here's another one, and this is kind of neat. And this is a gentleman who is an ad hoc professor at the University of Missouri who's just really into UFOs and
talking about UFOs. And this was in a newspaper, the Columbia Daily Tribune, comes out of Columbia, Missouri. So I just kind of talk about him and what he thinks and stuff like that, and about why he thinks that this is an important subject. He talks about the French Cometa Report, which was a report done by the French government on essentially, you know why the French take UFOs seriously. So it's another good, credible, you know,
serious story without some tongue in cheek in it. They also there's also a few stories out there about this conference that some more good friends of mine are. I just have a lot of friends in this field because I really like a lot of the people in this field are cool, nice people, and two of those being Nie Torres and Ruben uriar Day, and they wrote a book on the Mexico Roswell. They've written some other books. We had
them on recently talking about one of those books. But in San Antonio at the Presidio, they're having a little conference and hopefully that's oh, I guess it was. They already had it, so I think I hope it went well. And there's a story in the AO online all about that. Our good buddy Lee Spiegel, you know, he's at it again, that little character, son of a gun. He's always writing some stories about UFOs,
at least one a week for the Huffington Post. He's on staff there and a story he wrote this week is about a UFO that hovered for hours above a family home in Scotland. And there's a video. So you know, of course, there's hundreds of reports that come in a month to move on the mutual UFO network. So what's a big deal on another siding, Well, this one comes with a video and it's kind of an interesting video. There's some lights that look to be in a circular orientation there and they're kind
of moving. So it's just the witnesses, I guess seemed credible along with their video make this to be a very interesting case. And so mister Spiegel wrote about that not as interesting personally, maybe you think it is, and maybe it is. I could be missing something. If I am, you know, let me know, tweet me or something. But this story is from the sun UFO floating in the clouds over Cumbria, and essentially this is
in the UK. It's just it is kind of strange. I won't say that because it's this circular, these clouds that it looks like a contrail from a plane, but it's in a it looks like in a perfect circle, kind of a ring of clouds, which is somewhat strange. And finally, you know, I only got a full story, a few stories because we want to get into the interview. But the last story is about an alien planet at Alpha Centauri, the closest ever found to Earth. And this is
a exciting especially to space nerds. And I'm a space nerd. I'm gonna gonna admit that it's even called here on MSNBAC. An extraordinary discovery has roughly our mats and may harbor other alien worlds as well. Alpha Centauri is really exciting because it is so close. If I were to jump into my spacecraft and cruise to a solar system, my first stop would be Alpha Centauri because
it's just so dang close. It's just right around the corner. In fact, all I would have to do is juice up my rev up my spaceship up to light speed, and it would only take me four point three years. That actually is close. You're like, come on, dude, four point three light years away, which is actually three point six million miles away. Dude, that is far. I cannot drive my Camaro four point three light years. Await, you're right, you can't. In fact, we
can't even get close to that distance in our space shuttles or anything. But when we do get sophisticated enough to travel to the closest solar system, that will be Alpha Centauri, and it looks like it's going to be a goal that we're going to want to achieve because they have planets there, one in
particular that was found that is about the same size as Earth. It has the same mass, and although it's very hot there, people are thinking that perhaps at Hartbur's life because it's in that what they call Goldilocks zone where life may be exciting hi if and on the next solar system, there's life there that gets all these NASA people all hot and heavy. So everybody's really excited about that. So there's the news, a lot of fun, a lot
of good stories. As usual, there's always news on the UFO front in the mainstream media. All of these stories, I'm telling you, this is mainstream media. People say, oh, the media ignores this stuff, not completely. These are all mainstream media stories. So it's really cool. And then I did have some an editorial, some social commentary here on this presidential debate day. I gotta go see what's going on in that debate who's winning? Come on, somebody answer me anyway? Is that? You know,
be nice is all I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. These people sometimes and you know what, I'm gonna admit, I even block somebody on my Facebook, you know me when I'm on this show. I am trying to be constructive. And have you ever heard me say anything bad about anybody or ever make fun of anybody's opinion? No, ever accuse anybody of being a bonehead or a man in black or any of this stuff. No, how is that productive? It's not very productive. And so I really don't like
people being mean. I'm not into mean people. And so on my Facebook even recently, maybe you're you like the show, and but you just had some mean things to say about somebody, especially some of these people who are really my friends. I'm not even kidding these Some of these people are really my friends, are people I really like, and you know they're They're important to me. I totally appreciate opinions and people having different opinions, but you
don't got to be mean, you know. So, So that's what I'm saying. I mean, there's these there are a lot of people out there working really hard, and they're working hard to try to get you in information and try to do research to get out information. And you know what I've seen in this field many times, and these people I know wouldn't want me to share who they are, but there are people in this field who have been luminaries, very important people in this field that have done a lot of
great research, and they've left the field because of all the negativity. Now, I know most of my listeners are very cool dudes. They're like nice people, very very intelligent, kind and just wonderful people. I know my listeners are probably the most wonderful people this planet has to offer the universe. And I thank you for that. So this doesn't apply to many of you,
and maybe you feel similarly. I guess it's just that, you know, maybe you can help me support this whole thing and telling people, hey, you don't got to be calling people fricking fracking, you know, coming
down hard on people, let them have their space. And there are so many people that have left this field because of this just huge negativity and people being mean to them and accusing them of this and that when all they're trying to do is get out information and have their own opinion and to help race this field into a level of credibility that it has not attained yet, which is exactly my goal as well. You know, you can talk stuff about me sometimes people do big deal, well, I carry you now, I
got thick skin. But it even gets to me sometimes, and I got to tell you, sometimes it can be a demotivator where I'm like, why do I even do this? Man? These guys are so there's so many mean people that are It's just like, why do I subject myself to these people just attacking and accusing? You know, so you can probably feel see how people feel that way. So this is just my hope that because you guys are special and important, but if you could help me to convince other
people to be cool. All right, thanks guys, You're all right. So let's get to another cool person, another one of my buddies, and this is Nick Pope and just a terribly interesting interview about mister Gary McKinnon. I am very excited to have Nick Pope with me to talk about the Gary
McKinnon case. I've been following this case over the years, as I'm sure you have, and in the stories, you know, you're kind of mister UK for UFOs, and typically the major media out there turned to you regarding UFOs, but maybe because this has been kind of an international relations story and a government story on your end, the politics and everything in the UK, I haven't seen you turn to very much in the Gary McKinnon issue, so
I'm really excited. I wanted to talk to you about it because it certainly has ramifications that go much further beyond the UFO topic. Yes, indeed, I'm happy to discuss this topic with you, but I have you say quite
correctly that you haven't really seen me out there commenting on this case. And that's been quite a deliberate decision on my part, and it's a decision that I've taken because very much in the UK, where legal proceedings are still ongoing, any comments that anyone makes are potentially going to be prejudicial to a trial.
And I thought that, particularly with my unique position of having investigated UFOs for the British government but also commentating in the media on more general defense and intelligence issues, I felt there was a danger that I would be dragged into this in a way that would be helpful to none of the parties. Involved. Now as we'll come on to say, I'm sure technically speaking, legal
proceedings are not yet over, but let's come on to that later. Okay, Great, Now, I guess we'll start off with kind of the meat and potatoes of the hacking and the UFO portion, which really, I mean, of course, there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there, and
maybe we'll touch upon some of those. Really, he didn't find much, let alone anything regarding any proof, so it seems this is why it's not really taken as very serious, it seems by either government as something well even a major hacking event, because it was just kind of a as in their view, a silly thing, and he really didn't come across anything damning in
relations to anyone. Well, I think the hacking in itself was taken extremely seriously, and I think this is why this issue has dragged on for ten years. What I don't think has been taken particularly seriously by the US government, the UK government, or indeed by many of the serious media commentators is the UFO angle. And I think the reason for that is that the evidence,
quite frankly, is very poor. Essentially, Gary McKinnon says that he went looking for UFO related information on various US military networks and indeed on NASA's computer network. He claims that as well as UFOs, he was hunting for information which he claims was connected, perhaps with the UFO issue, particularly in terms of technologies exotic technologies such as anti gravity free energy, which some people
believe are associated, perhaps even back engineered from UFO. But frankly, his claims are fairly sparse and they fall into I think a couple of categories. Firstly, he states that he saw at least one spectacular image taken in space of a large cigar shaped object, which we presume is some sort of NASA issue. And secondly, he states that he found evidence of what I think
people in the UFO community would call the secret space program. Essentially, he claims that he found a list of apparently military personnel and the phrase non terrestrial officers was used, alongside the phrase fleet to fleet transfers and a number of ship names, but ships which didn't correlate to United States Navy ships, which obviously usually have the pref uss. Now, he states that what he saw was USSS and the implications that some sort of space fleet, and he,
when pressed for the details. He's quite sketchy on this. He says he can't recall much. He actually says as the reason that he was smoking quite a lot of dope at the time. His quote not mine. He does, I believe, recall two ship names, the uss S le May and USSS hill in Cutter, Well, Curtis LeMay and Hilly in Carter of course, first chief of the CIA, very prominent personalities in the UFO conspiracy world. Curtis LeMay, his whole run in with Senator Barry Goldwater over what recovered
technology UFO technology. We might have hill in Carter of course MG twelve, if there was a secret space program, and if this is something that was born out of MJ twelve, you could imagine that chips might very well be called the le May or the hilln Cotter. So it's in that sense the
story I suppose makes sense. But where I say this is extremely weak in evidential terms, is that for somebody who is clearly quite a sophisticated computer hacker, he didn't have any screen grabs of any of this, and there are no printouts of any of this. So, frankly, in relation to the UFO side of this, whole story. All we have is his word, and I guess the point I was trying to get at was in this.
I think because of the somewhat as seen of an innocent and maybe even by some silly nature of what he was seeking, he has gotten a lot of support from the public, and you know, he's been able to struggle and eventually win his case to stay in the UK. Whereas if he was trying to find information for to relate to enemies of the state, he probably I would I don't think he would have this public support, nor would and I'll get your opinion. Would it be in question whether or not he would be
extra edit or not. I agree totally with that. I think there are two issues here. The first is the legal one, which I'll cover in a minute. The second one is the presentational issue. And you're absolutely right, Gary McKinnon had huge support right across the range. This is an issue that galvanized people, I think on the left and on the right. It was certainly seen quite rightly as a human rights issue, and the whole thing
was really, i think, perceived as a David versus Gila struggle. Here was the might of the United States government on one side and on the other side this hapless young man with Asperger's syndrome again, which will come on to in a minute, because that's another dimension to this whole case. And the phrases that you heard quite a lot would be, as I say, David versus Goliath, sledge hammer to crack a nut, picking the wrong fight, etc. Etc. And I think that shows how this case was viewed in
the UK. And yes, there is an absolute difference between, for example, someone like Gary McKinnon and somebody who you might the United States government might want to extradite on grounds of terrorism. Now let's let's do the law first, because I think that's that's fairly fundamental and underpin all of this. The alleged offenses took place in two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and he was fairly quickly tracked down and arrested. This was not someone hugely
interested in causing damage and towering his tracks. And of course famously he left the message your security is crap quote unquote for the network administrators to find and indeed, when he was questioned by the police, he admitted virtually straight away that it was him. So that's one thing. Now, since between his arrest and the present day. The important piece of legislation the United Kingdom government brought in is called the Extradition Act two thousand and three, and that has
arguably changed the position somewhat. But this was an act really designed to make extradition between the U K and the US easier in a post nine to eleven environment. But of course this was a piece of law that was very much designed with terror suspects in mind. It's part of the War on Terror. It was aimed at speeding up the judicial process. It really wasn't aimed at
someone like Gary McKinnon. And I think whether you start when you start trying to use anti terrorist legislation, and when you start using phrases as it was alleged a prosecutor, a US prosecutor used to Gary McKinnon, such as you'll be going to Guantanamo Bay and you'll be going to fry, it's extremely unhelpful and it's counterproductive. If anything is least likely to make US Brits sympathize with
the US government on this, it's that kind of heavy handed treatment. But yeah, so it was completely going after somebody using very heavyweight tactics and legislation, when in fact, I think the consensus was here that a light flap on the wrist would have been the best cause of action. Now there's also, you know, in what you're talking about going to Guantanamo and all of
this. I've made some assumptions about the perceptions that people in the UK have about the US and US prisons, and maybe that's because I do watch some UK television and they love to kind of poke fun at Americans at times, and also at times, you know, at least make fun about as being maybe a little more barbaric or less civilized. I mean, is there a feeling that US prisons are much scarier places than a UK prison? Yes, there is, and I think it's a misperception. I won't deny that.
When you talk about US prisons, the view is clearly of some maximum security institution. It's very much Occasionally you see documentaries called things like America's Toughest Prison, and deliberately, of course, it picks the extreme end of the spectrum. And I don't for a moment suppose that the US government would have put Gary McKinnon into a high security institution, or they would have taken him to Guantanamo Bay. But yes, people do think in a very stereotypical way about
American justice and the criminal justice system, the prison system. Again, perhaps we'll discuss the US UK relationship more generally in a moment, but I think you would perhaps form in your mind an image of poor old Gary McKinnon in chattels and lead iron and an orange jumpsuit shut after Guantanamo Bay ahead a water boarding section. Now, of course, that's, you know, the ex
three end of the scale. I don't suppose it would happen. I don't suppose most people in the UK who really think about it seriously thought that that would happen to Gary McKinnon. But some probably did. And let's not beat around the bush on this again, going back to the law, when he was indicted by the federal grand jury in Virginia on seven separate counts I believe of computer related crimes, each count carried a theoretical maximum of ten years in
prison. So again it is arguably the extreme end of the spectrum. But it is a matter of indisputable fact that he was facing a theoretical maximum of seventy years in prison, right, And I want to get more into that night. Let me sorry, let me just want over. Yeah, I just wanted to pick up one other point I mentioned earlier the Extradition Act of two thousand and three. There is a perception in the UK that this is
a piece of legislation that is unfairly weighted towards the US. In other words, although it's supposed to speed up the criminal justice system and ensure that there is relatively quick extradition of people both ways, the perception is that really it's to facilitate extradition from the UK to the US, and that it won't really
work that well the other way around. And what I think really rankles with people who have looked into this in some detail is it's one of these catch all pieces of legislation because the US is not required to provide any contestable em sudence under this, you can simply invoke the Act and then ask that someone
is extradited. And indeed, it's important that I clarify. Had Gary McKinnon been arrested after the Extradition Act two thousand and three had been brought into force instead of before, we probably wouldn't have been having this discussion because of the lack of a requirement to provide contestable evidence, he would have probably have been put on a plane and sent over fairly shop. I want to get more
into the politics because I think that's really the most interesting part. In a couple of minutes before real we do that just to kind of wrap up the UFO aspect, and I share the same view as you as there's really not much there is for the reasons that you mentioned. He really didn't grab any
screenshots or anything like that. But I know there are a lot of questions out there from listeners, and I guess a couple of questions from me to you would be, what do you feel do you feel that Gary McKinnon really did see what he says he saw a picture of a UFO from Johnson Space Center and then this roster. Do you think he actually did see those things
that it's possible those exist. I suspect that in relation to the image, he saw an image, but he probably and we've seen, in fact, subsequent to this whole process, we've seen, for example, a number of people put in Freedom of Information Act requests, for example, to NASA, asking for copies of all documents relating to the Gary McKinnon case. What they've found is that basically NASA employees who are curious about this have just been searching
the Internet for material. And I suspect that if Gary McKinnon found pictures of UFOs, he probably found things that people were surfing for and perhaps downloading in their free time. And I know full well that many people in NASA are interested in the UFOSU, just as people in the DoD and the British NOD
are interested in the UFOSU. And it wouldn't surprise me if people are surfing in their lun channels and downloading all sorts of UFO material from conspiracy theory sites, from more general UFO site and I suspect that what Gary McKinnon saw was something related to that. So the irony of this is that Gary McKinnon may simply have studied across something from the UFO community that ended up on a NASA
or a US military website. But I don't believe that he's seen anything hugely groundbreaking in relation to UFOs, and I think there are all sorts of reasons for that that pertained to the way in which genuinely top secret code word material is supply is stored and the encryption protocols that apply the firewalls, the fact that such materials on discrete systems protected from the Internet and separate from it.
I don't say that people don't make mistakes in security classification. Of course they do, and I mean, indeed, arguably the whole reason Gary McKinnon was able to hack at all was because people had stupidly set their passwords to default possessions. But generally speaking, if there was some super secret as you would have to say that a secret space programmer, an absolute smoking gun in relation to UFOs was this would be on a very close hold, right, And
yeah, exactly for those reasons that you mentioned. I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense, because even some of the computer magazines out there had written about how really it was somewhat low level stuff he had to have been looking at, because, as you said, he was getting into computers where people had left their password as password. Kind of comically, I remember a Smoking Gun movie where Leslie Nielsen, you know, got into a computer
by using login for login and password for password. And yeah, as a script, yeah, there's a script or program that searches for a number of default password like password and like log in and like popular first names that someone might choose the name of their spouse, for example. And I think there's a script that runs through thousands of common terms and when it gets a hit,
it highlights that system. And as so far as i'm aware, that's what Gary McKinnon was using, what do you like not that's not the sort of computer system on which if there was genuine free sample MJ twelve documents they be held. And I speak, I speak as somebody who has handled top secret code word material for the UK government, and my goodness, I can tell you the rules for the storage of that material, both on an IT
system and in hard copy are very very tight, and quite rightly. So I mean, let's just take a step back, and I think it's important to remind ourselves what the definition of top secret material is and its material, the release of which would potentially cause catastrophic damage to the national interest, including loss of life. So I mean, we don't take that security of that
sort of material likely. And like you said, rightfully, so I think a lot of people don't realize, I mean, not all secrecy is evil. Unfortunately, A lot of people think that whereas it's just that the opposite is typically the case where it's protecting people's lives. People can really get hurt people who are out there trying to do good, the do girders who are
trying to burst the bag. As essentially, yes, most secrecy. I think you raise a very good point, which in the UFO community and the conspiracy theory community, the alternative belief community is not widely appreciated, but reasons for keeping secrets are almost invariably good ones. And for example, you don't want technical information about how to build a small yield nuclear device suitcase bomb out there for people to access. You don't want, for example, CIA files
identifying who agents are who are passing information covertly to the US government. I mean, if that sort of information is close, those people will literally be tortured and executed. Now we've seen many times in history. Now what do you make of this roster? And actually, and I was curious where you got the ship names because I had heard people talking about these alleged ship names. But when I looked in all of the interviews, I couldn't find a
direct quote from McKinnon using the LeMay and Hillencrotter names. So where did he mention that because most of the interviews he says he doesn't remember because he was drunken stones like you had mentioned. But yeah, where did those names come from or when did he say that? And what do you make of that whole claim. I can't recall the details of that. It may be that it was in an interview with Timothy Good, who I know spoke to him.
It may also be that it was in an interview with John Ronson, the investigative journalist and author who I know as well, was somebody who interviewed Gary McKinnon in depth. So I apologize I don't have that information to hand. I think it was John Ronson or Timothy Good. But as I say, if there was a secret space program and we had ships that had I suppose names from the history of the secret UFO project, if you believe that,
then LeMay and Hillencotter are likely names. But whether that was genuinely what McKinnon saw, whether he was perhaps prompted, you know, do you think the names could have been I mean, maybe maybe someone simply ran through the names of alleged MJ twelve members, for example, and that would be where Hill and Cutter's name turned up, but I think there's there's a lot of information out there. The other people who I think interviewed him in quite debt
quite some depth with Computer Weekly, So that's another possibility. Now. I think it may be Timothy Good because I did see all those older sources, but not so much on Timothy Good. Uh. And I read a lot of the Computer Weekly stuff, but I did want to ask because getting into I guess to talk about the big conspiracies out there and uh, and there's a lot of people talking about this stuff. I didn't quite understand their point.
I don't know that I completely do right now, but this idea A lot of them have this idea that Gary McKinnon the US is being sneaky and they don't want McKinnon to go to trial because there's this perception that if he goes to trial and the U, well they're on the both sides, that if he goes to trial, then all of this these secrets are going to be mucked up and then the government secrets are going to be out. No, I don't really believe that. I think that's if people are expressing that
view, I think slightly they have it the wrong way round. Firstly, unless he's been very cunning and keeping this up his sleeve as a negotiating ploy, a bargaining chip or something like that. I think his statement is almost certainly true. He probably can't recall much more than what he's told to people like Timothy Good and John Ronson and Computer Weekly and various other journalists that he's spoken to, So I'm not sure that he's got some ace up his sleeve
which is an absolute get out of jail free card. If he had, I very much doubt this whole saga would have been going on for ten years. I mean, I suspect that if it did ever come to court, and it still might, by the way, but in the UK, and I've come on too that in the moment, But I suspect if it did ever come to court and he was asked for the specifics, he wouldn't be
able to reveal much more than he's already said. And indeed, the ten years that have elapsed would have probably fault his memory somewhat as opposed to his original interviews on there. So I don't think that it was true that the US government didn't want this to come to court, and everything that's been going on I mean, let's not forget the US government has spent probably around about a million dollars of tax payers money on legal advice on taking this forward and
trying to actually get him to the UK. And I don't know if the letter has yet arrived, but I understand that the formal complaint from US Attorney General Eric Holder is either has been sent or is certainly on its way, and and that this is a cause of considerable bad feeling between the US and the UK government, coming after, of course, the release of the lockerby bomber Albograhi. There is a sense in I think certain parts of the US
administration that the British have gone soft on on the war on terror. Now that absolutely not wrecked. I mean, these were these were legal decisions taken on the facts in front of of of the the judges and the politicians at the time. And to clarify, by the way, this is the block on Gary mckinn's extradition is something which perhaps a lot of US commentators don't fully understand. The decision was taken by our Home Secretary. Now that's Theresa May.
She's a politician, she sits in the British Cabinet. It's one of those rare occasions where a politician has legal or quasillegal powers and in fact she would no longer have those powers under the Extradition Act of two thousand and three
which I mentioned before. But this case, as I'm sure you know, went all the way up the UK criminal justice system, then it went to the European Court on Human Rights, then it went for judicial review, and ultimately it was the Home Secretary who stepped in and blocked extradition on the basis and again perhaps going back to the reason for this, which we haven't really
discussed yet, the combination this is a medical and psychiatric diagnosis. The combination of his Asperger's syndrome and depression clinically diagnosed was adjudged to make him a suicide risk. So when to raise a May. Theresa May took her decision last week. She said there was essentially a suicide risk, which she accepted the advice in front of her, and she stated that extradition would be incompatible therefore
with his human rights right. And this is a good segue what we're talking about, I think, moving from the UFO arena into all of this, because like you talked about, and you can let me know whether you agree or Philain being accurate in this representation is that he did actually already throw his ace in the hawk, because in two thousand and two when they busted him, they said, okay, we'll let you plead to a three to four year sentence, and he stupidly and he even criticizes himself, I was a
bonehead. This information about this roster and this picture was his ace in the hole. So I mean, if he had more of an ace in the hole, he already would have thrown it down. So he tried to bluff out the US to government. He said, okay, if you give me this, don't ease up this sentence, then I'm going to release this information. Of course, the US knew he didn't have anything, so they said, fine, we already gave you a deal. Now we're going to throw
the book at you. And then they came at him really hard, overly harsh. You kind of touched upon this earlier in that they said, you
know, they're going to give him this seventy year sentence. They started using this rhetoric about the biggest hack of all time, and they really came at him hard, which seems to have played against the US because it then, you know, created this David and Goliath atmosphere where a lot of people and luckily, to the tireless work of it his mother, a lot of people began to come to Gary McKinnon's aid even prior to the discovery of his sickness.
Yes, I think that's that's right. Taking a step back, Gary McKinnon has Asperger's syndrome, which which is essentially an autistic spectrum disorder. It's it's somebody who's autistic, but at the very high functioning end of it. One of the symptoms, as it were, of people with Asperger's syndrome is that they are very obsessive. They also tend to be very processed orientated, which is why they're very good. You find a lot of them as working
as network administrators, as indeed Gary McKinnon work. You actually do find a lot of them obsessed with the UFO phenomenon, which is a separate, separate debate. But one of the other things about people with Aspergers is that they
tend they tend not to lie or dissemble. They tend to be very straightforward and uncomplicated when it comes two things, so you don't see them lying or constructing some elaborate defense or excuse for something, which is why when this was put to him right at the beginning, he put his hand up to it straight away and said, yes, it was me. I did that. I don't say that people with Asperger's syndrome can never tell a lie, but
they tend not to, and they tend to be fairly straightforward. He believed, going back to your question, he believed he had an ace in the hole with this roster. But I don't think he did, and I think it's clear that the US government didn't think he did. I think the US government did misplay their hand on this, As you say, they started off with effectively a plea bard and said, look, if you co operate, you'd perhaps be looking at three to four years. But then they didn't follow
through with any promise on this. There was no guarantee. And again, people with Asperger syndrome take a very literal view of things, and he would probably have said on that always, my guarantee is that a promise, and it's that well, no, it's not a promise, but it will go well for you with the judge and in those circumstances, he and perhaps his legal team weren't prepared to play ball. And that, as you say, is when we got these unhelpful references to frying from various from a prosecutor,
references to potential seventy years now. Of course that would have been the maximum, and I very much doubt any judge would have given that. But you know, by that point, by that time, the damage is done, and as you say, the perception exists in people's mind thigh that the US government are going to throw the book at him, and worse than that, the perception. And again this is as somebody who now lives in the US, and obviously I am British and I worked for the British government. I
know full well the mindset of the people involved. The perception, and I think it was a correct one, is that effectively the US government was severely embarrassed by having been and this is a phrase I've heard, I think in some media reports of this, and I think it spot on court napping post seven at post nine to eleven. And the feeling is that effectively Gary McKinnon
was taking the wrap for the security mistakes of it. Security specialists and network managers who who frankly should have known better on issues like them having the passwords
set to the default position. And again the feeling is that what the US government, if they were smart, should have done, would have been to say, look, we'll give you a guarantee of non prosecution or whatever, but if we seriously think you're really quite skilled at this, come in have a look at our security systems and see if you can tighten them up.
And there's no secret, I think, though I won't go into too many details, there's no secret in the fact that many security agencies all around the world do actively go out into the hacking community and try and bring these people over, as it were, from the sort of black hat to the white
hat side. In fact, the article and Computer Weekly, the longer one that came out on this story where they talked about how the government was really overblowing the extent of the hack, made that very suggestion, and it made that point also that they often will, especially in situations similar to this one where no major damage has been done, in lists the help of someone like
McKinnon to say, Okay, how did you do it? And you know, let's fill up these holes, let's fix these problems so it doesn't happen again. Yes, I think one very important point to make in all of this, which I think does go some considerable way to explain the US government's
position on this, is the deterrent effect of this. Clearly, there are a lot of people out there who would love to get into various military and MASSA computers, not least for the sorts of reasons that Gary McKinnon set out, And if there wasn't a case like this, I suspect a lot more
people would be doing it. But nowadays, I do believe that the fact that this has gone on for ten years, the fact that with the change in the law, it's not now guaranteed that a Home secretary would be able to put a stay on extradition, I suspect that, yes, the US government's pursuit of Gary McKinnon is heavy handed and looks extremely unfair, But I suspect that it was motivated in part by a desire to send a very strong message to people that if you had we will come after you, we will
likely get you, and you will be facing some very severe prison time. And I have no doubt that that actually has worked and has been a Terran, so in that to that extent, I think the American government handling of this has been understandable and indeed successful. Now that's about the best I can say in relation to this case. But there clearly you can see the reasoning
right, and perhaps what's going on now could be some posturing. I want to get your idea on this because of the evolution of the kind of the relationship that's happened here. And I guess, just to preface this, I think what's incredible is watching this case that at first was kind of most interesting, well at least very interesting to the UFO field when he got busted way back when. But to see the growth of this case has been extraordinary.
From it, you know, his mom with all of her public battles, and then you have these entertainers starting to get involved, and Gary McKinnon losing most of his court battles until two thousand and eight, he gets diagnosed with Aspergers and then begins to get more sympathy from the government as the public is growing and growing in their support of him, and now all of a sudden,
David Cameron and Obama are discussing this case in their meetings. It's like, holy moly, it got to the top of the top, and it's an international affairs dilemma. And of course, and he's even in the Wiki leagues, whereas talking with you know, Hillary Greek Clinton bring briefed on this
issue. So it's all over the place. And at first it seemed like the UK or the US was being very stern, and the tide seemed to turn when Obama went out there and he said, you know, we have great ties where we don't want to hurt our relationships, and I'm sure we're going to work this out. It was almost and a lot of people commented on the feeling like Obama was saying, if you guys decide to keep him here, it's okay. We're not going to make that big of a deal
out of it. But now that the decision has come down, and you know, as you mentioned earlier, this letter is supposed to be mailed at any moment now from Eric Holder, where they're very upset. Supposedly Eric Holder is not even returning Teresa May's phone calls, and they're making it sound like the US, or at least Eric Holder, is really upset about this. Yes, I think that as ever, there is a huge difference between what's
going on in public and what's going on in private. I suspect that when Teresa May made her decision, given the level to which this was escalated, I suspect she briefed the Prime Minister on that decision. I would not be surprised if David Cameron had picked up the phone to President Obama and said this is the decision. It's going to be made, made public and later to
today, and he and his deputy Prime minister. I mean it was even a little bit of part of their campaign coming into office that they were going to do what they could for mckinn in correct. Yes, indeed, and I think again for any politician this this is the debate, and this is the way it's played out in the US media people I think in pardon me, and the UK media, in the k media generally, and I think
this reflects public opinion. There has been huge support for this decision. I think the people that have spoken out against it have said it was a slightly cynical decision by Teresa May and that she and perhaps the government more generally put
popularity over justice. Now I don't actually accept that. I think that the decision in front of her did it was a quasi legal one, As I say, the Home Secretary has quasi legal powers in this particular instance, and the evidence in front of her was that there was a genuine suicide risk there and I think therefore her decision was taken in good faith. I'm sure it
was not lost on her that it would be a popular decision. But going back to the US government, clearly, given the fact that the US government has pursued this guy relentlessly for Freudian slip there, relentlessly. Yeah, given that the US government has relentlessly pursued Gary McKinnon for ten years, this decision cannot simply be taken without some form of comeback, and a very strongly worded letter is doubtless on its way. I too have seen the reports about Eric
Holden not taking Theresa Made's phone calls. There was an anonymous US Administration official who used the phrase totally screwed quote unquote in relation to this decision. And clearly the US government has to be seen to be challenging this and to saying that it's a bad thing and who knows it it is something which I mean the timing, of course, in a sense, could not be more unfortunate for Barack Obama and the president in the third and final debate, which I
obviously understand is the foreign policy debate, this whole this question. I mean, obviously it's going to be dominated by Libya, but this question might come up, and it might be something that Mitt Romney uses to perhaps portray the US government the presidency of Obama as toothless, even though of course it wasn't really his decision to take. So the timing is unfortunate. I mean,
just literally days before the foreign policy debate and then the election. It's yeah, it could have been better behind the scene, behind the scenes, I suspect I suspect they knew or suspected this decision was coming. I suspect frankly, had he been extradited to the US, this would have gone on, who knows for another ten years, and frankly, again been an issue that
neither the US or the UK government would have wanted. So, yes, Eric Holder has to send his letter, and yes everyone has to play hurt and offended and upset, But I very much doubt that really anyone was surprised by this. I suspect that secretly both the US and the UK government are
kind of glad that this issue is now going to fade away. And I would be absolutely astonished if this had any tangible effect on the special relationship between the US and the UK, and critically, of course, on the mutual
security and counter terrorism work that our two countries do so well together. And let's not forget, you know, before before anyone in America tries to characterize the UK as are soft on terror or anything, the UK has stood with America since nine to eleven, and indeed many British citizens were killed in the
nine to eleven terror attacks. Let's not forget, but the UK has stood shouldered to shoulder with the US in Iraqi, in Afghanistan, in the conflicts all around the world, and men and women with British armed forces have fought and and been injured and been killed in the same war on terror in which American men and women are engaged. So the idea that we're not in this with America and that somehow we've gone soft is absolutely ludicrous and totally at odds
with the fact. I mean, at every level across the British government, defense, security intelligence, we work closely with the us. We share information where we're able to, we cooperate where we can, We work together to try and bring down the bad guys. But you know, Gary McKinnon was not one of the bad guys, right, And I mean I don't think
people realize and correct me if I'm wrong. Really, the UK typically is in greater danger due to terrorism than we are, just by the fact that you're closer to the Middle I mean, you're closer to be within range of
any missile attacks by let's say Iran or even further that there are. You know, we of course had nine to eleven, which was a big, large project, but you often or occasionally will have smaller bombings and terrorist activities happen out there in the UK that often I've noticed don't make it to the news over here. Yeah, we had the seven seven bombings, of course on the London underground, in which over fifty people were killed quite horrifically,
and this was of course from young people who had lived in Britain. These weren't even Al Taida terrorists or sympathizers seeking entry into the UK. These were people already living here. And again without going into details for obvious reasons, but security agencies and police agencies in the UK have stated that a number of terror plots in the UK from al Qaeda and al Qaeda associated groups have been foiled due to the good work of British intelligence agencies, some of which would
have caused mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And these are quotes from senior police officers and intelligence personnel. So we are very much in the crosshairs of groups like al Qaeda. We are fully engaged in the war on terror on almost every level. And if anyone is seeking to say that we are soft on this issue, or that the special relationship with the US has suffered because of the Gary McKinnon case, well maybe there's an angry letter that kind of
has to be sent from Eric Holder. But you know, behind the scenes, I am confident and I certainly hopeful. But I'm confident too that cooperation on counter terrorism issues is going to be as strong as it has ever been, and quite rightly so. It's interesting you must mentioned, because I hadn't thought of that of this issue, and that would be extraordinary also possibly coming
up in the debates. But I'm also looking at one of the quotes Obama had in that press conference with David Cameron when they spoke on this issue. And it is a bit prophetic because I think this is what happened. I mean, he said, I trust that this will get resolved in a way that underscores the seriousness of the issue, but also underscores the fact that we work together, we could if we work together, we can find an appropriate
solution. And I think that the although it might be rhetoric or prosturing Eric Holder's letter and now this oh we're mad at you guys, kind of the underscoring the seriousness of the issue. So the issues resolved, we're just underscoring that it's a big deal and and hackers can't get away with anything. But finally, yeah, the issue is going to be resolved. Yes. And one other point that's that's often forgotten in all this. This is not the
end of the process. It is now up to the what's happened, of course, with with the Teresa May decision is that extradition has been blocked. The question now arises, should should he be prosecuted in the United Kingdom? Now, what what happens there is that the police file, this is my understanding, will now go to the Prosecution Agency, the Clown Prosecution Service, and perhaps the Director of Public Prosecutions, and two tests will be applied.
Firstly, is there a reason full possibility of conviction, which frankly just means is there a fifty to fifty or better chance that we get a prosecutors we get a verdict. And secondly, and perhaps more controversially, is it in the public interest? Well, I suspect that people will will say it's probably not in the public interest, and this has dragged on for ten years, and the uncertainty and stress over that is punishment enough. But that, of
course is not my decision to take. That's going to be the prosecutors. And it may well believe that this goes on and on. But you know, in all of this, one phrase that I haven't mentioned, which is an age old phrase in discussing any legal question, is the classic quote, the origin of which is somewhat disputed. But justice delayed is justice denied right and right? And then that is truly tragic in this case, then in
others I agree with that. Yeah, So I think I suspect the feeling is that this has gone on for long enough, and yes, a message has been sent that the US government views hacking very seriously. We all know that now. But I think the time for pursuing a hapless young man with Aspurge's syndrome for another ten years has finished. I hope this matter will will now be put to rest, right And I guess, just to wrap up, I mean, I don't foresee, and I don't know if you do.
I mean, Gary McKinnon has been able to speak to the public this entire time, so I don't see any other revelations coming as far as you have always No, I don't either. I suspect that his speaking to the mere when legal proceedings were ongoing was unwise, and I suspect his legal team told him not to, But inevitably, when people have got to him again, it's perhaps a symptom of the Asperger syndrome. When he's been asked a question, he's tended to answer it. But no, I very much doubt
that we're now going to find some great UFO related revelation. In a sense, the whole UFO issue was a bit of a side show. That was what he was looking for the real issue was the criminal offense, the computer related crimes, and then the legal question and the human rights question about where he should be tried and what the sorts of punishments for that sort of offense should be. Right now. Surprisingly, and this will be the last question. Surprisingly, there are a lot of at least it was to me.
I didn't realize this, but there are a lot of emotional opinions, even on this side about this case. And I know I'll take a little bity heat for this, but I feel that you know, justice has been served. I think one of the articles in a Telegraph written by Jenny McCartney, I think she makes a good point that the British citizens, you know, we are living in democracies, they felt that this was unjust for him to
be sent to the US and that he should stay. And it's a good thing then that the politicians followed their people's will and they're keeping him there. I think that makes sense. Do you feel that way? And are there any negative ramifications towards the Are there any defense issues that are raised are problematic because of this? No, I don't think so. I think the change in the law and the obvious deterrent effect that the ten year pursuit of Gary
McKinnon will have speaks for itself. But I think you're right. I think one of the key concepts of justice and the criminal justice system in any free society, any democracy, is that there should be a degree of proportionality. You know, it's a phrase that one often hears, the punishment should fit the crime. And I think the damage and we haven't discussed this, but the actual damage to US computer systems was put, I believe at about seven
hundred thousand dollars. But the damage to the US national interest I think was really If anything, this just served us a little bit of a wake up call in terms of it security. And indeed, many of the articles that I've seen said, well, Gary McKinnon should be thanked for that. But yes, there's a feeling, there's a feeling that the pursuit of Gary McKinnon was disproportional, and I think overall that, certainly the consensus in the UK
is that the decision not to extradite was correct. Being pursued for ten years through the criminal justice system is I suspect something that pretty much everyone would would find one heck of an ordeal. So arguably he has already been punished enough, right and especially for someone in his case with Aspergers, which seems to
be genuine. I mean, I don't think if you look at his interviews and how he reacts, and just like the items you've mentioned, he clearly shows symptoms of Aspergers, which makes this even more terrifying for him, and makes it a danger for severe depression and possibly even suicidal tendencies for people with
that illness. If this was a young altaider sympathizer searching the Internet for details of how to make bombs and trying to reach out to other people to form plots against the US government, and of course we saw just recently another one of these cases with someone arrested in a sting operation who had apparently been certainly
willing, if not able, to plant a bomb. You know, if this was some person who was trying to hack into US computers to you know, cause dams to open or power stations to blow up or something like that, of course it's a very different affair. But here was someone who was simply interested in UFOs and rightly or wrongly thought that he might find some interesting information about them, and you know, he's not a terrorist. And frankly, I think it's time now to draw a line under this whole case.
All right, well, thank you so much for taking the time out. This has been I just wonderful because I can't think of it. I've been following this case. I'm very into the politics and everything in the relation international relations, so I can't think of anybody better to talk to about this. So thank you so much for joining me. It's certainly been a treat for me. Okay, well, it's good to talk about this issue. I think it raises a number of interesting and important points and it's good to have
a chance to talk them through. All right, thank you very much. Okay, all of that what absolute traitful me. I'll tell you. I sound Australian. Thank you so much for mister Nick Pope. I mean,
how cool is that? You know what. I'm a newshound and I watched the news and all the stuff going on, and maybe I shouldn't, bet I do, and I always have been in a bit of a newshand in fact, you know that what got me into this because I saw the Disclosure Project and I'm like, come on, why aren't you guys covering this stuff? You on the guns? So that spurned me to get more into mediad
to luckily, not attack. So I'm not in the same position as mister McKinnon, but I'll tell you to me because I listened to MPR, you know, in my car throughout the day I'm watching the shows. I don't think there's anybody better to talk on this subcheck than mister Nick Pope. So I think he's incredibly insightful, and this was certainly a bunch of fun for
me to talk to him about this case that's just been extraordinary. Like I said, it just blows my mind that, you know, we saw this happen, this guy getting in trouble for hacking looking for UFO stuff, and then it blows into this incredible deal like it's bigger and bigger and bigger till
it gets as big as it can get. Practically, it's just too bad he didn't grab any screen captures or or of any of this stuff, because, as Nick Pope said, you know, I think what I found interesting is he did not say, you know, definitively, oh that that log must be a bunch of bunks, the non terrestrials. So if that's true,
what in the heck? Could that be very mysterious? And hopefully we find out one day So to any of you non terrestrial officers or navymen listening to the show, welcome, Send me an email and let me know what you're all about. Maybe you can come on the show. That'd be wonderful. We'd love to have you. And for all of you terrestrial listeners, thank you for tuning in as well as usual. It's been a great pleasure
and I will talk to you all next week. Moochachas emuchachos. Until then, you with some music from my good buddy and the guys at you first minute and here we got distas