Love talk Radio. Welcome to open Minds Radio with your host Alejandro rojash Hello, my friends out there and internet land and podcast world and all of the other wonderful places that you visit us from. This is Alejandro Rojas and this is the first show under the new name of open Minds Radio. And did I change the name of the show just on a whim? No, I did not. I am now working for an organization called open Minds. You
can find our website at openminds dot tv. And it's pretty sweet because we're gonna be doing a magazine TV show We're gonna do with this radio show, also a live and podcast, a video cast. So we've just got so many cool ideas and things coming up that you're just gonna love it all. And you know, one of the biggest things that I get, one of the biggest feedback I get for the show is that the audio levels can be
pretty bad, that the guests sometimes sound really low. So I've been trying a couple of things to solve that, and I think I've got a somewhat okay solution. However, better solution coming even starting next week. We've already got some of the equipment in. I'm not in the studio right now. I'm actually in my home studio, but we're gonna be shooting in our TV
fancy studio that you guys are all gonna get to see eventually. In the studio there at the Open Minds office is next week and going forward, and we've got equipment that we're going to be able to control the audio levels. So we're going to fix that. I apologize to you the people that email me occasionally and say, you know what that the guest is hard to hear sometimes. We're going to fix that real soon. So this is cool stuff going on. And as our first guest tonight, we're going to have Nancy
Talbot and she is actually the president of BLT Research. This is an organization that has been doing rigorous scientific study into crop circles for around twenty years now and they have made some of the most really the best bindings in this field as far as the scientific evidence to prove whether or not a crop circle can or was created by humans. So they have evidence that suggests that there are
some things that would make it very difficult. But let us say for humans to have hoped some of these things, and we're going to talk about that on the show. Take some notes because we're going to talk about the important things that need to be studied in crop circles to be able to determine this. And also we'll talk about maybe how you could get involved with crop circles
and crop circle research. There are some crop circles that happen here in the United States and you can go to the BLT research homepage and you can see some of those US crop circles, and you know what, they would be more than happy if you could follow their directions go out and do some testing on those crop circles if there're anywhere near you, or if you want to do this sort of work in the UK, you want to take a summertime vacation out to England, then they would be more than happy if you went
out there and did some sampling out there as well. So I'll tell you how to get a hold of Nancy, how to get all this underway. Bltresearch dot com is their website, and we'll be talking more about that very
soon when we bring Nancy on. She's absolutely wonderful. In fact, when it comes to the UFO field and science, she is one of the first people that's contacted because she has because of her how she's careful to use scientific method and careful with the reputation of scientists and how she represents their work. You know, she works with a lot of scientists, so a lot of people go to her when they need different evidence researched. Also, the new
time, you know, four pm Pacific. I'm in Arizona here, which is going to be kind of weird because when Daylight Savings comes and everybody shifts, we're gonna shift. Then we'll be aligned with what mountain time zones. So right now where aligned with Pacific, and eventually we'll be Mountain, but
right now four pm. We did this so we could do the show in the studio, so everybody's there and we can have the cameramen and stuff like that, so we can do the live video that we're going to do eventually. Also, we're going to bring guests into the studio so you could see me one on one interview these guys live. So hopefully this time works and it's a little earlier for those East Coasters because we had like last week, we had an East Coaster on and this sport guy had to be on in
the middle of the night. Also, we want to get some more international you know, I've had Nick Pope on here and out there in England. This time is about midnight, so at least that's not too bad for keeping these guys up at night. Whenever you do Coast to Coast, you know you've got to stay up that late. So hopefully they won't mind. It won't be as bad because with the show before. I think when I had Nick Pope on it was like something like three in the morning Forum, so
that can be pretty it's too difficult for those four chaps. But let's get into some UFO news. We've got some interesting news this week, as we do every week. I think I talked a little bit about and actually I forgot to talk about the ABC special last week. Actually we only talked. It was only Sunday, which is cool. I like talking to you guys more often, and I always get that, you know, when you're gonna
do is show, it's too long since you've done the show. Well now it's only been a few days and we I neglected to really go over the ABC special week after what about a week or so ago, I think it was last Tuesday. ABC did a special that included up Buds and Stan Romanek and some other things. I thought that it was nice that they didn't really completely make these people look awful and debunk everything they were doing. However, it was too bad as usual that they don't do the research they need to
do. They're called investigative journalists and their job is to do research. However, do you know they just go out there, shoot some interviews, go into the studio, shoot there, put it all together, and they call that investigative journalism. No real research, especially in a case like Stands, which I know there is so much evidence. They didn't present any of the evidence. They talked about his leg getting healed, but they didn't go over
the doctors notes about that. They didn't interview a doctor. You know, they didn't get video analysis done of videos. They talked about Stace, who is someone else I had turned them on to who is a I believe it's an abductee, and you know, she says she has videos of UFOs. And when she came in and told me this. You know, when I first heard about her at move On, I thought, yeah, right, but and I was skeptical, you know, when I got into this whole
thing of the abductee claims. But I saw her video and it's very interesting. There's some things you cannot explain there. I saw myself things with her that I could not explain, as I have with Stan And I mean, I guess you know. ABC did another special it's called Seeing Us Believing, and that certainly was the case with me. When you know, out of the four or five sightings I've had, three of them are with people who say they see UFOs a lot and that they claim their abductees. And I'm
sorry for those of you who that's hard to believe. But as a researcher and an investigator, you know, I found that to be the experience. In my experience, you can't if you're going to investigate this stuff, you know, you've got to investigate these people and not blow them off and take them serious. And it only took a little bit of time of hanging out with these guys and listening to these people that I found some of this extraordinary
stuff. And of course it's unfortunately stuff I haven't been able to prove. I don't have video of my experiences, but hopefully one day I will, and believe me, people that will be a wonderful day because I'll be able to get this all out through my open minds connections, and hopefully I think we've got some really great evidence we're going to be showing along the lines.
But anyway, Bud Hopkins is what I was getting at, because Bud Hopkins wrote a story called the Faith Based Science of Susan Clancy and Suthan Clancy with a Harvard psychologist who is on that ABC special talking about abductions being the result of sleep paralysis, and he wrote about how many of the subjects that he has studied had their experiences why they were awake, not while they were asleep, and that the sleep paralysis scenario doesn't fit for them, and that is
true of abdictees I've talked with as well or possible abductees. I'll say, so, you know, and really it was unfortunate because the worst thing they did is they made doctor Leo Sprinkle look pretty bad. They kind of they totally downplayed his experience in this field. He's a doctor of psychology and was
in charge of a clinical psychology department at the University of Wyoming. Decades and decades of work and even conventional clinical psychology, and you know, they downplayed even the usefulness of hypnotherapy at all, which if you've seen it or had
it done on you, it's amazing. I think the problem psychologists have with hypnotherapy is that it's able to resolve issues quicker, and you know, they don't have these return clients coming back to them not getting the help they need, so needing to come back many many times and spending more and more money. So that was very frustrating because doctor Sprinkle is definitely an enlightened and beautiful person. He's absolutely wonderful. And it was funny because a friend of mine
said he had lunch with him and asked him about the special lean. He said, you know, with things that people that can't accept things like this that are extraordinary truths, the first stage of a civilization is they deny it, deny that it exists at all. Then they ridicule it, and then the third thing is they accept it as self evident. And he said, if they were ridiculing me and I was able to move them to that second step of ridicule, that I'm more than happy that I was able to play
a part. So he's just a great person like that. Another story that came out was a dean of UFO studies who had passed away, and this was a story about researcher Richard Hall. He was an astronomer, very well respected person at the University of Maryland, and he passed away recently. So he was a UFO investigator for decades and talked about how he did believe that these UFOs were attributable to extraterrestrial craft and so really neat guyed with a lot
of research and unfortunately he passed away. Another story that came out were video and pictures of Chinese UFO sightings. So there's a video out there that's sort of interesting, and a story from all news Web that talks about supposedly mass sightings. They call it a mega UFO event that millions of people saw motherships in China, and then the reference is a story that's completely in Chinese.
So I wasn't able to read that. A couple of other stories that all news Web posted were UFO events in Nigeria and also a picture of a UFO photographed in the state of Georgia. He got that from a mof on report from a mof on investigator who sent him that information. So on news Web, really interesting site. They're really about posting just news around the world so people can keep up today. But they also do post a lot of UFO
stories, which is very interesting. Another story that I had posted in the last few days was a UFO video over Lake Havasu, Arizona. However, that UFO is no longer a UFO. It is an IFO and identified flying IFB actually identified flying balloon and someone had posted that. He thought it was
funny that someone had videotaped his balloon. He had this big balloon shaped like a UFO that was silver that he was flying, and it had a Budweiser sign attached to it and the string broke that held it and it flew off, and that's what it looked like. I mean. But this video was weird because of course it's UFO shaped. It's a saucer with domes on either sides, floating around, flittering around up in the sky. So really weird
video. And now we know what that was. And it's always great to solve these cases so we don't waste spend our time investigating whether or not it's a UFO or not. But video of Polish UFOs also were posted on Google here and I put up that link of supposedly a Polish UFO flotilla. So a bunch of UFO is kind of strange. Looks like these bright lights in front of the clouds. You know, you see one and then there's another, and then there's another, and they keep coming for a few minutes.
So a lot of them. There were also Australian UFO sightings that we posted here on the news and then the US Intelligence Examiner examiner dot com also did a story about UFOs and the media and what he sees is a positive opening up of the media about this subject. And you know, that would be wonderful and at least I think if we asked Nancy, she might not agree. But you know what, I think it's getting better. The ABC show to me doesn't show much improvement. I mean, in the nineties there was
just a cookie cutter way that they did a documentary. You know, the first eighty five percent of the show is all about the UFO cases. The last fifteen minutes you devote to the defunkers and that nothing really happened. So all that stuff we showed you with fun. But and like I said, it's safe, you know. That way, they get the ratings from people who want to watch the UFO show, but then they don't make any extraordinary claims, so no one can come to them and say, hey, ABC
said that was UFO. They can say, no, we didn't. We had our specialists come on who said it was UFO. So what we call it the bunker. So it's safe for them. They reaped the benefits of the ratings. At the same time, they don't, you know, put their butts on the line at all, which is unfortunate because journalism is supposed
to be the watchdog out there. And then very interesting today when I went did my search for UFO stories in the news, I found a bunch of them from Europe, mostly in the UK, like three or four, one from Germany, one from Scotland, and one of the UK stories was about some police officers who had seen a UFO. So a lot of stories Europe and the UK. They are UFO crazy, Like I've been talking about lots of UFO stories. So you know, we had Nick popeon not too long
ago, but we're probably gonna have to have him on again. So he's a really cool guy. You guys, heard him. He's following this stuff very closely, and a lot of these stories are getting news. In fact, Nick Pope was on Larry King just last Wednesday, so just a little over a week ago talking about UFO. So a lot going on there. And this is something I literally just got and I clicked on it and took
a look, and it does look really interesting. This is something that the speaking of the UFO examiners, and surprise, surprise, I don't have anything on the National UFO Examiner, but no doubt next week I will, just because I talked about his stories on the last show. But this is a Sacramento UFO Examiner. He posted a very interesting video that looks like UFOs near
a nuclear power plant. And this looks like it's taken from a plane shooting down and you see what looks like to be several metallic looking orbs buzzing this power plant. So very I'm sure that there'll be a lot of people looking into this, including myself this week, to see if we can find out what's going on. Who posted that, why, where? Who had all those ws? To find out more information on that, But I will post that as soon as the show's over. So you guys can take a look.
And for those of you who are live in the chat, I will post this link in the chat right now so you can go take a look at that right now. And the chat, just so you know, is a blog talk radio. If you look for Open Minds Radio there you'll find us. And the chat's a lot of fun because we can talk real time. But if you're a podcaster, hey man, I love the heck out of my iPhone. I don't know how I live without it, so I can certainly appreciate the iPod. Miss that you enjoy yourself. If that is
not a word yet, I'm sure it will be. But with out further ado, let's bring on one of my good buddies, and that is miss Nancy Talbot. And this lady I think is amazing. She is one tough cookie. She tells it like it is, and she's gonna tell us like it is here in a second, tell you what, all right? We should hear the phone ringing any second now there goes hello, Hello? Is this Nancy Talbot is excellent? This is Alejandro Rojas. Hello, Hello,
Hello. So this is great because you were on the when I guest host for Uphone not radio, but I haven't had you on my own radio che show, so this is definitely a pleasure for me and my guy. Well, I'm delighted to have the opportunity, al Hondo, It's still after all these years, I am constantly informed by questions that people ask me or emails I get. Today a new website has gone up in France and the guy had emailed me asking if we could link, and he's got a whole area
on the science and I checked it and it's all wrong. Oh So getting the opportunity to outline again what the scientifically documented facts are is a real privilege because so many people do not seem to be aware of what they are, nor of their significance. I'm delighted. Well open minds. You know which I just started with. Our logo is a crop circle from last year, the pie crop circle. That was a fabulously interesting one, wasn't it,
And so it's beautiful. So it's a great logo that our graphic to designers really did a good job on that. So because of that, of course we're looking into crop circles and you know, I think the number one thing we need to do and why this is going to be good to educate my coworkers as well as to get down the nuts and bults of the science so
we know what we're doing well. If you start with the scientific I mean, the difference between science and everything else is much more the process of science, the methodology, which is the manner in which humankind has become informed over the last one hundred and fifty years or so about the physical nature of our reality. Science doesn't propose to approach the metaphysical. It deals with the physical reality, and from that we have learned a great deal. It is not
necessarily the final answer about all things. But if you want to establish something that can be talked about in specific terms that are factual, that's what science
is good for. And in the crop circle phenomenon, which seems to be, in my opinion, a multi faceted situation, science perhaps can only go so far, but the fact is it can go a certain distance and provide actual facts upon which people interested in approaching the phenomenon from a variety of other approaches can use these facts in helping them establish the genuine phenomenon as opposed to
anything else. And that's what our whole ascent has been to establish criteria that let you know when you're looking at or you're in a crop formation, whether or not that particular one of the general is of the genuine phenomenon, or is perhaps one of these mechanically flattened ones made by people. It seems to me it's rather critical to know the difference made by tipsy old cellists straight out
of the pub well back in the old days. That's what was offered as a possible explanation when you look at the fact that crop circles occur all over the world, as far as we can tell that they have been. This recent flap of them, if you want to call the flap, has been
occurring for the last twenty five years. It's a little hard to imagine a couple of pipsy old dudes or a bunch of young guys bopping around the fields getting to obscure in remote locations in Canada, for instance, or Russia, or Africa, or South America or all the many places where they appear and are regularly reported. It's a bit of a stretch before I get into the history of your group and your research into this on that pie circle. Did
anybody look into that or get some samples for you from that circle. Just an absolute stroke of fortune that that year I didn't have enough money to have hired someone to be in the field for BLT in England. We literally cannot be everywhere all the time. I was than Holland that summer, and so I didn't have enough money to pay somebody to be in the UK for me
taking samples. But there was one interested Englishman to thank the Lord who did take some samples for himself originally and then got in touch with me about what he was seeing with questions, and so we do have It's not we don't have a substantial enough sampling of that event to be one hundred percent certain, but the signs which were evident in the samples he did take as compared to the controls that he also took in the same field indicated to me that he
could be I'm not sure what percentage I could put on this, but I was much more inclined based on the fact that there were expulsion cavities present and there did appear to be node apical node that's the top node on the plant. Apical node elongation are two primary visible pieces of evidence in the plants. They both did seem to be a present in that formation based on this minimal sampling that the guy in eng One did. Wow. Therefore, I am
pretty comfortable personally with the idea that that formation with the real McCoy. And when Nancy talks about the nodes and cavities, we're going to get into that. But I want to let people know too. If you just do it, search crop circle pie, that's all you'd have to put PI. You'll find this crop circle and it's beautiful. And what I think from it is even it represents the pie. You know, the numbers for it, and the way it was done is so beautiful, and it does involve them with
very a very intelligent formation. And when it was examtland and looked at very carefully by people who have a lot of knowledge in mathematics, they were able to demonstrate that that formation encoded very precisely, including the deciel point, the three point one four one six and it keeps ongoing number that represents pie. It's an amazing thing. Mm hmm. Even if the artists would have conceived
that and put did that on paper, I would be impressed myself. But let alone to show up in a crofts well, when you have to take into consideration on hunger, the size of the formation, which was quite large, that it did not occur on flat land. It was on undulating land. To get this sort of precision. In the middle of the night, you've got five hours more or less of darkness. In England, it's farther north than we are, so in the summertime you have much or to nights
you have approximately five hours of darkness. It's on underlating land. It's quite large, and it's absolutely precise these geometries. That is something that I personally would have a lot of trouble figuringe. I don't think anybody could do it, certainly, not one or two people. It would take a crew, and a crew would have left all sorts of marks on the plants that would
have been readily available. I think they can be pretty comfortable, but that one was the real McCoy also, so is that why because I've seen it referred to as the most complex circle? Would you agree with that? And are those some of the reasons why I would not say it's the most complex. It is definitely a complex formation. There have been many very large, very complex, very elegant events, mostly in England but elsewhere over the years,
and it doesn't really matter. I mean you need that it is the most complex. Yeah, it is a complex, elegant, very precise situation and it was a great choice for your logo I think, mm hmm, yeah, it's it's neat. So getting back to the history of BLT, I think it started with BLT as Burg Lovingood Talbot and it was the name
Tulbot Talbot. I've been saying it wrong for all this time. Taulbet does all this at any rate to tell your audience about the website, because anyone listening now will be much better be able to follow this discussion if they go to the website. It's BLT research dot com, just be as in bully,
just like the sandwich bltresearch dot com. And if you go to the website and open up on the left hand mask, you will see a listing of the various contents and go perhaps first to the plant Normaldy section, because there were be many illustrations there of what we're going to talk about. Perfect yeah, okay, and so and in the history, the first Levin Goood, who's a biophysicist. He in the looks like very early nineties started looking
into these crop circles. He did back in I think perhaps maybe even in nineteen eighty nine. He was first contacted by Pat Delgado, one of the early British crop circle researchers who I'm not quite sure I think actually, if I remember correctly, Levin Goood, his wife had seen a very early TV show about the very early British circles, and she mentioned the show to Levinhood.
He was intrigued with what she told him, and somehow or other he was able to contact Pat Delgado and they made an arrangement about Pat taking some samples, some plant samples from some of those early formations and sending them to Levin's A's lab in Michigan, which Delgado did do. Now, in those early days, minimal samples were taken. Of course, we nobody had any idea of where to start. What do you look? What are you looking for? You don't know what this is, You don't know where to start.
And so Levinwood simply used his background in biology and in biophysics to begin examining the plants, looking for any sort of change, which anything that was different from the control samples, which are also taken in the same fields.
There's a huge variation in plant growth in cereal crops or in any other type of plant, and you have to take the controls from the same field in which the formation has occurred, but at a considerable distance away from it, and then you look at various aspects of the plants to see if, in fact there are any differences, And very early on he began to observe some differences. That very early work he did primarily using the microscope looking at cellular
structure. He began to notice a stretching of some of the cells in certain areas of the plants, which he did not find in the controls, and this immediately was a red flag to him, and he thought, Okay, there's something to look at here. He looked at a number of different variables
in those beginning years. By the time John Burke and I had discovered the circle phenomenon, which was in nineteen ninety two, and had gotten and gotten in touch with Levin Goood because we had heard that there was this actually a trained professional scientist here in the United States who had taken an interest in the phenomenon, and we knew immediately that this was a fairly rare occurrence that a professional scientist pays any attention to this sort of thing, And so we got
in touch with him independently because we wanted to know more about what he was doing. We went to meet him independently, both of us, I think in nineteen ninety two, but at different times. And then it just evolved into we had different talents and different abilities, and so we decided to work together as a group to try to carry on some serious in depth work. Did this plant and soil work while it was plants to begin with, and
it evolved into the soils also, and so BLT was born. I made up the name because the English researchers wanted to call us something and I didn't know what, and I was making a joke. It never occurred to me this would become as serious an investigation as it has. And so because the last names began would be L and T. I thought people could remember BLG research, you know. Oh yeah they do. And I'm sure you get a lot of sandwich jokes and stuff. I've heard a few. Yeah I
have too. But it is it is easier, at least for Americans to roup of people who know what a BLT is the Brits. I can think we're a little confused, but at any rate, by now the name is established, and so I didn't see any point in changing it. Well, what got you so interested into devoting time to this? I simply recognized immediately as soon as I knew about crops Are, I went to England and got down my hands and knees in some of the circles and realized instantly that something
was going on. You know, I knew this wasn't planks and boards. And I had some money at the time from I had been a producer of big outdoor country music shows and festivals, and I had a little bit of money. It was going to take money to get sampling done, to get things, you know, to hire barns to drive the samples down, to
hire people to wrap and ship and label all this stuff. And I also had a lot of experience because I'd worked at Harvard in the Department of Anthropology and then Social Relations department, running various experiments as a research analyst there, and so I had some idea of how to organize this kind of thing and
how to train field personnel stuff like that. John Burke had a particular expertise in working in the libraries doing literature research on when we would get certain results or we thought a particular thing would be interesting, he could carry out these in depth literature searches in the libraries to see if anyone else had done not necessarily crop cerver work, but plant work which revealed any of the same changes we were finding. And Levin Diould, of course, with his lab,
was able to do the physical measurements and work. Plus eventually, over time he and John Burke really together developed some of the theoretical ideas which might explain the physical results that we were by then documenting. So and by then, by the late nineties you all had gotten samples from over three hundred circles, and you must have been swimming in data well by the mid nineties. Actually, I think it was in ninety three Levenhood published the first of the peer
reviewed scientific papers. It's called Anatomical Anomalies in Crop Formation Plants, and it was published he written in ninety three, but it was published in ninety four in Physiology of Plantarum, a European plant physiology journal. By the following year, in ninety five, eleven Good and Burt together published the first of our findings about the soil work in a paper called Semi molten meteoric Iron associated with
a Crop Formation. And then in nineteen ninety nine eleven Goood and I published the Aspersion of Energies in Worldwide Crop Form Nations. These are still the only three peer reviewed scientific papers that have been published based on field the search of the prop circle plants and soils. It's a literary, expensive and very time consuming to do this sort of work to produce the data that isn't required to actually publish in the scientific journals, and we just happen to be a group
of three with the available money and expertise to actually do this. Well, I know we've got at least one listener from the UK on and someone I think from the Netherlands. But hopefully they're getting excited about doing the work to help you collect this stuff. By that they're going to find out here soon that it is a lot of work, so hopefully they're in for that.
But what were some of the things you all have found. You started to get into some of the physical changes to the crops that Levinthood had started discovering. Yeah, I think what I'd like to do is outlining first. It's the two best documented, and they just happen to also be visible plant changes. Okay, many of the plant changes are not visible. They can only
be determined in the laboratory. But there are two, and they just happen to be the most thoroughly documented in several hundred formations in about fifteen different countries now around the world. The first and most important of the plant changes is the apical node elongation. This is the top node beneath the seed head, the first node beneath the seed head. On all of these various cereal plants,
a node is a knuckle like protuberance. They're usually in cereal crops are three or four of them beneath the seed head, going down to the ground. The top one is what we call number one, the first one, and it is about usually it's about a foot to a foot and a half beneath below the seedhead itself. That node in the genuine, in the genuine phenomenon is always statistically longer than it is elongated when compared to the control crops.
Now, you cannot always visibly see the elongation. Sometimes it is subtle enough so that you have to take literally hundreds, if not thousands, of plants samples, and you have to measure them all. You do the same thing with the control plants. You take hundreds or in some cases thousands of control plants and you measure all of those nodes also. Then you on a statistical program to see whether or not the change in the sample plants is what
they call statistically significant. However, in many cases that no elongation is visible to the naked eye. When I go into formations, I always take a handful, say ten plants control plants from some distance outside the formation, and I cut them off at the base, and I walk with them into the formation, and then I start comparing these controls the apical node on the controls to the apical nodes on the flattened plants, and I go through the entire
formation looking at that. In many cases the no elongation in the sample plants the flattened plants is clearly visible. But it depends sometimes that no elongation will be in the range of say thirty to thirty five or forty percent, and at that stage it's not necessarily obvious. But in many cases that we've examined, the elongation has been in the range of one hundred and fifty to two hundred and some percent, in which case it's clearly obvious. It's totally evident.
That is, if it's present, it's the best sign you can see. If you cannot always determine this visually, then and does that happen to only the down plants, and is it all of them? Are some of the standing plants as well? Very good question. It will occur in all of the downed plants, but in varying degrees of significant overall, but not necessarily exactly the same in all the downcrop. And what we discovered in time. At first we didn't know to look, but we learned eventually. Then
we started checking some of the standing crop inside the formations. As you know, there are standing sections inside many formations. As we started to examine those standing plants, what we found was that when no elongation was present, it was almost always also present in the standing crop inside, in other words, the crop which had never been flattened. What's very important about this point is that one of the things that the bunkers bring up is, oh, well,
it's just due to phototropism or gravitropism. It's no elongation. Those are natural recovery processes that any plant, particularly if that's young and vigorously growing, will go through and the node bend and then try to reorient themselves to the sun. That does cause a certain amount of node elongation. It is not the no elongation that we're talking about. What we're talking about is way in
excess of what you see doe to phototropism or gravitropism. But when you also find it in sanding crop which has never been flattened, obviously it rules out completely that particular explanation offered by the debunkers. Now in controls, have you ever has that ever been found in controls or like you said, Burke was going to do some research about other instances of possibly some of these effects.
Have you ever seen did you ever find that there is some natural variation in node lengths apical node length as well as all the others in any growing system, any growing crop. It's not exactly standardized, even a hybridized crop, so you will see from time to time of very some node lengthening in apical nodes in the controls. The point here is that we're not looking at one
plant or five plants or ten. We're looking at hundreds or thousands of plants and then doing a statistical analysis of all of the samples versus all of the controls. We don't make these determinations based on single plants or small groups of them. Now, the second most important finding in the plants, which is visible, and this one is always visible if it is present, is something we termed expulsion cavities. These are holes blown out at the nodes in the
formation plants. Usually they occur in When we first noticed them, we was finding them primarily in the second node below the seedhead. Later on, as years went by, we started to see them also in the third nodes and sometimes in the fourth and in extreme cases we would find these expulsion cavities, these holes in all of the nodes, from the top node all the way
down to the base of the plant. They were in very extreme cases, but interestingly this year in England that is exactly what we have seen again, expulsion cavities all the way down the nodes in the affected plants. Now, both of these results, the node elongation and the expulsion cavities, are caused, we think by exposure of the plants to a very rapid, very intense or varying in intensity bursts of microwave radiation. The majority of the moisture in
the plant's stem is contained at the nodes. When the microwaves hit this collection of moisture, which is how the plant gets all its nutrients, of course, what happens is that the moisture turns instantly to steam. Steam, of course, then expands the space in which it occurs. As this steam attempts to escape, but confines of the node. The top node, which is the most, the newest, the youngest, is also the most elastic, the fibers around it will stretch. And what happens is the steam seeps out
through those top nodes and lance gone. It leaves them stretched in a permanently stretched position. Gotcha. Farther down the plant stems, the fibers are much tougher. They are not elastic. That's how a plant stands up for heven sakes, they don't stretch. So when the steam builds up there, when there is enough moisture down there, and the microwave component of this energy system is intense enough, that also turns the steam down there. And as the
steam builds up, it simply blows a hole right through the node. So, in our opinion, these two results are both associated with the moisture content inside the plant stems. At the moment the cross circle has occurred, the intensity level of the microwave component, the heating component of this energy system, causing the moisture to turn to steam and then the steam escape whatever way it can. At the top note, it stretches them. Lower down, it
blows these holes. Do you ever find these expulsion cavities and standing plants? Yes? And another very good question, I think you've done your homework, which is delightful because most people don't. The expulsion cavities are almost never, very very rarely seen out in the control areas. However, along the tram lines, these are the tractor lines that go through the fields, because many of these fields are sown by tractor and they are sprayed by tractors. So
there'll be these straight lines that go through the fields. Not in all fields, by the way, but in many of the English fields you will find these things we call tram lines, that's their word for tractor. The tractor lines or tram lines off goes through the crop formations in various places. Sometimes the formations are centered on them. More often they are not, but the tram lines, which can be spaced anywhere from about forty to eighty feet apart,
depending on the size of the tractor. You see. Often these lines do run through formations, and in many cases what we have seen is that the crop that runs along the edges of the tramlines will have the same signs the no elongation and the expulsion cavity evidence for some distance down the tramlines or up the tramlines, in other words, for some distance away from the flattened
crop itself. This occurs almost always only along these tramlines, and only for a relatively short distance, except these enormous events which we're starting to see now in England, and from this year again, I know that in some of these very large formations, these expulsion cavities were found not only in the formation
samples themselves, but way down the tram lines for a considerable distance. And even more particularly this year, we had a number of formations which occurred in England when on farmers' lands, where the farmers don't like this, and they cut the formations down immediately literally the next morning, and within a day or so another formation would occur in the same field very close by, and thankful Lord, our researcher this year was able to look at some of these events
and we found not only expulsion cavities in the one that had been cut because often the farmers only cut off their heads when they go in there, leaving the bottom nodes for us to examine. We also found the expulsion cavities in the replacement crop circle, if you will, and we found them in all
of the crop in between the two formations. Wow, is this year the first time you've seen that happen these Like you said, it's the first time we've had the opportunity to see it, because it's the first time we've had anybody in the field when a formation occurred that was cut out and then was followed by another one. Yeah. Wow, But by the grace of God, we did have somebody there. We were able to document it, and the work is being done now as a huge amount that has to be done.
But eventually the photographs of all this will be put up on the BLT website so that everybody can see the particular formations in which we were able to prove this. Wow and well definitely for the listeners and will exists at the end too. We'll have Nancy on again in a month or so to talk about some of the findings from this year, because I know this year was an extraordinary year for circles. Yeah, as definitely was. Now the moon right along on the plant changes. As I say, those are the only
two visible signs. And people need to know that expulsion cavities do not occur in all genuine formations. They occur when the moisture content is great enough in the plants and when the microwave component is strong enough. This is not the case in all genuine formations, particularly as you go later on in the season the plants dry down. Of course, as you get close to the harvest,
there's very little moisture inside the plant's them. Further, the energy, the various energy components in this energy system vary from formation to formation, so the microwave component may or may not be intense enough to cause the expulsion cavities. That's the point to keep in their minds now evidence of another energy component. We know that if you take normal plants, normal crop and put them in a microwave of and you can produce both these no elongations and expulsion cavities.
Turn the microwave on and set it a certain setting and boom, you can do it. So we're pretty confident that the changes we've spoken about so far are related to exposure of the plants to microwave radiation or something that works just like it. But we know that there are other effects in the plants which are a much more positive change that are not caught by harmful radiation, and we were able to run down some of these other energies, in particular
the electrical pulse components eleven. Early on began to realize that the seed development in many of the crop circle plants was massively altered when the microwave component was very intense, and if the formation occurred in young crop before the seed is fully formed, the seeds often did not complete formation, they never developed normally. In other words, those seeds where or those plants were essentially sterilized.
The seeds did not develop normally, they would not produce seedlings when planted. Therefore, the plants were essentially sterilized. However, it was discovered in time that when crop circles occurred in mature plants here we're talking about the end of July and August in England when the plant is fully formed, the seeds are fully formed, and the crop is beginning to drive down. In those events, the seeds were also found to be smaller, to weigh less, to
have a very dehydrated appearance. However, when those seedlings were those seeds were planted, when growth experiments were carried down, we discovered that frequently the seeds from the mature cross circle samples, although dehydrated, although weighing less, although looking like they would not germanate, germinated and grew at up to five times the rate of normal. They did this without water or sunlight for long periods
of time, and they produced greater yield. This was a stunning finding and as far as I'm concerned, is the most important plant result that we have obtained to date. Leaven, Goood and Burk worked on this. They also realized that this was an extremely important discovery because it implied that if you could discover whatever energy was responsible for that, you could then treat normal seeds and perhaps produce a seed that would grow in drought conditions or grow in areas where
there's very little sunlight. In other words, you might be able to produce much more food in areas where people are currently starving. Right through a number of tests, and it took quite a long time, leaven Goood eventually was able to discover that a very particular kind of electrical pulse could produce this same result in them normal seed. The process was called called the mir process. They patented it, and all of this information, by the way, is
on the Plant Abnormalities page of the BLT website. I think this is item number seven, but it's all there. At any rate, they did patent the process. They built machines and produced tons of treated seeds, which were then sent to various seed companies around the world and many academic agricultural institutions. All of these people then planted the treated seeds next to control seeds and documented
the progress. What was found, and there are several papers written to this effect, was that with certain types of seed, if I remember correctly, tornado plants were one of the types. Cotton was another, corned maze was another. There were a hover of carrots. I can remember that clearly. There were a number of different types of seeds which clearly showed a thirty to thirty five percent or greater increase in yield, and they all showed a much
more tolerant response to what are called plant stressors. This means lack of sunlight or lack of water. The plants grew anyhow, and they produced greater yield under these stressed conditions. When was this during the end of the nineties the early part of the twenty first century? So did anybody adopt this as a process? To eleven Burke, this was what Burke spent a great deal of his energy doing during that period. Their attempt was to sell this this technology
to some of the or to any of the sea companies. What they found, to everybody's enormous distress. Well, it's a very simple process. This is not a complex thing. The situation of doing this, the building of this equipment. Once it was discovered, it was not hard to replicate. But there is no there's no way to make money from it for the big sea companies. It's a simple enough process. You do not control the next
generation of seed. In fact, the next generation of seed is likely to also produce greater yield because of this, At least in John Burke's opinion, Montano and all the other major city companies were not interested. It gave them no control over the product. It in fact could not make them the kind of money that their notions of genetic manipulation could make, and he was totally unsuccessful in being able to sell the technology. My personal sense is that they
should have given the technology. I was not involved in any of this full profit venture, and it is my personal opinion it should have been given to the population. However, the fact of the matter is the process was not sold, and the company which was set up to do so, pro seed Tech, which had a website for quite a while, has now completely folded and I had to remove the link from the website. I gave the link
to their company for a long time. And what would that take? Well, how would you, you know, get these electrical impulses onto these seas. So they built equipment they would simply deliver them. You run the seed through the equipment, it would deliver the pulses. The work there was in figuring out exactly what sort of electrical pulse and for how long an exposure time. You had to do this with each individual kind of seed. You see, it varies from seed type to seed type, and you have to know
those exact details to calibrate the machine correctly. For whatever kind of seeds you're running through it. But the basic process is not complex. It's figuring out exactly how to apply it to each type of seed. And all of the work that was done all of the by this is not done by John or
Lefty. There were all these other academic institutions taking the seed which John had treated for them, and simply growing it down themselves in very parts of this country and other countries, and reporting these massively increased yields and much greater ability to tolerate stress, over and over and over again. There was no question that the process worked. It was apparently that no one could figure out how to make money from it, which desects the project. Yep, that's what
it's all about. Can't make money off of it, it's not worth existing in modern days. Huh. Apparently a very sad development as far as I was concerned. Well, I know there's at least one more effect on these circles that isn't visible. Yes, And this is again something that has to be determined in the lab. This is the Beer Lambert application. In physics, there is principle called the Beer Lambert principle, and it's a mathematical description
of the effects of electromagnetic energy on matter. It describes precisely what it can be expected, the degree of change that can be expected relative to the distance from the source of the energy. How it was discovered in some formations that the nod length change, this is, the apical node length change, diminished in precise proportion, in exact agreement with what is predicted by the Beer Lambert
theory, the Beer Lambert principle. And we found in a number of cases if you sampled the plants in the center of a formation, let's say, and then sampled five feet farther towards the edge, another five feet farther towards the edge, another five feet, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, out to the actual flattened edge, you would find that the node length
decreased in an exact agreement with what the Deer Lambert principle would predict. Furthermore, we found in the several formations that the standing crop beginning at the very edge of a circle, let's say, and then extending out into the field again when the controls were taken at the edge of the circle, and then let's say, just for instance, every five feet. It could have been every four or any three or whatever, out into the field farther and farther
and farther away. Again, the node length difference at the edge would decrease, an exact agreement with what would be predicted by the Lambert principle. What this clearly demonstrates is that the nod length change was a function of exposure to electro magnetic energies, not to a plank or a board or And it would seem that the microwave explanation alone would not be sufficient either. No, we know that the increased growth and yield is due to these electrical pulses because we
were able to replicate that. And so that tells us that the energy system must have number one, a microwave component or a seating agency component. We think microwaves are the most reasonable. Number two, it must also have this
electrical component. Then we began because of an incident that occurred in nineteen ninety three, in which it occurred during the Perseed meteor shower of nineteen ninety three and a popsicle form during that period in which it was discovered that there was a coating of what appeared to be molten metal on some of the plant's stems.
We were fortunate enough to be able to look at samples from that event and to eventually determine that the material, this molten material was a molten iron, which Levenhood and Burke in the paper that was published in nineteen ninety five, determined that, in their opinion, this material was the result of microscopic particles of meteoritic dust which filled it down to Earth all the time, but during the perseed meteor shower are heavier because you've got meteors entering the Earth's atmosphere
burning up, so you have these meteoritic particles of dust filtering down in much
greater numbers. And it was their opinion that this magnetized iron molten iron in conjunction with tiny little iron spheres magnetized iron spheres which were also found in that formation and now many many times since, that this material was caught up as it filtered to Earth normally in a lotating energetic plasma system which heated up the particles into the molten state, and then as it impacted the Earth's surface both
created the crop circle and left this molten material on the plant stems and embedded in the seed heads and in these tiny little spheres scaled throughout the formation. This told us that magnetic fields were also involved, and Livingood, with his background in physics, became more and more convinced that the causative agency behind the crop circles had to involve a rotating plasma. Plasmas are known to emit microwaves
when they spiral. Plasmas are known to be associated with these unusual electrical pulses when they spiral, and they are also known to have strong magnetic fields. Therefore, the theoretical he developed slowly but surely this idea, the theory that rotating plasma systems were involved in the creation of crop circles. All of this is based on simply what he had observed in the plants and the soils.
It is the most reasonable hypothesis available so far. It may not be the final hypothesis, but I cannot personally think that plasmas are not involved in the copsicle situation. Somehow, the information from the plants and soils is too thoroughly documented, and at the moment we have no other mechanism that is known to science that could explain what we've actually seen. Now, at first did you
imagine that or suspect that this could be some sort of naturally occurring. Oh, we've always approached it from that point that you know, nature is an extremely sophisticated situation, and there's a great deal about nature that people don't know that science is not aware of yet. We know, for instance, when it comes to these of plasma plasmas, that many plasma discharge that everybody knows about, of course, is a lightning strike. This is a plasma discharge
at the Earth's surface. The intensity level of that discharge is much too great to be an explanation for the crop circles, whether the plants would be burned, You wouldn't you know, You wouldn't get the designs, et cetera. Another plasma discharge near the Earth, This is at about six miles to eight miles above the earth surface are the Northern Lights, and this is a much
less energetic, a much more moderate discharge of plasma. During the years we were working on all of this, another form of plasma discharge was discovered brand new blue jets, which occur I think at around six miles above the earth surface. They had been reported for u years science by pilots but the scientists didn't find out about them and document them properly until about fifteen years ago. Then more recently than that, what they call them red red nose maybe their
sprites have been documented. And if it's new, there's another new thing again, a plasma discharge, which has only been discovered in the last seven or eight years. And so it's quite clear that there is a lot more to be learned about atmospheric science and about plasmas in particular. Loving Good postulates that an unknown type of plasma, one that is still not yet recognized by the science community, is involved in the formation of ob circles. Now you know
ultimately whether that will I don't think that's the final word. But I cannot personally believe that the discharging plasma is not involved in the crop circle situation. I think it is, but it's just not the complete answer. Yeah, because ahead just getting back to like the pie circle, natural occurring plasma, how LETU creates a symbolic pie formation that well, I'm not saying it couldn't,
because I don't know that it couldn't. Of multiple plasma vortices interacting could easily create many of the extremely complex formations we have seen there is no question of this. Elevengoode wrote a paper that was published in Nature in I think it was nineteen sixty six in which he discusses vortex instability. In that case,
he was discussing experiments he conducted of vortex instability in water. A slightly more dense material, a clay like material, was dropped or was placed very carefully in absolutely still water, and photographs were taken of this material as it descended through the absolutely still water, and it illustrates beautifully the concept of vortex
instability. What happens is that the original design, the original particle, breaks down into multiple very intricate designs, every single one of which is different. Now in science, physicists know that air is a medium very much like water.
Certain effects which occur in water absolutely also occur in air. This was the basis of Leaven Good's idea that multiple sophisticated, intricate designs could in fact result due to certain laws in thermodynamics, and also because of this vortex instability, which he had already demonstrated and so of many other people. As a plasma multifaceted interactive plasma vortex system descended through the Earth's atmosphere down to the crop
surface. That being said, the idea that a totally spontaneously occurring plasma system could produce something like the pie formation is perhaps a bit of a stretch. To me. It suggests that there is some sort of consciousness, and by that I open a huge pandelic box. We could be talking interdimensional consciousnesses. We could be talking collective unconscious you know Young's idea. We could be talking all sorts of concepts that I haven't gotten names for. Not to mention extraterrestrial
consciousness. I have no idea specifically what sort of consciousness, But to me it appears that the cop circle phenomenon must be also approached with the idea that a consciousness of some kind other than the completely adherent consciousness of nature, which I guess we don't really understand either. But it appears to me that something in addition to that is at work. And it may be if such a consciousness exists, that it is utilizing the physical principles of a plasma discharge in
the overall causation event. A consciousness that's getting increasingly stubborn this year, that is repeating itself once it's designs are destroyed. It seems well that in fact did occur this year, and it does lead one in that direction. So a couple of the questions autould I make a few other points? How much time do we have? We've got ten minutes. I know I was going to say with this show, we have ninety minutes, which is a short
conversation when it comes to our conversations. But yeah, you've got about ten minutes left, all right. Well, in the plan abnormality section, this is a very critical part of for if people want to understand, to get a solid idea of what the science has shown us so far. In that section, there is something that is constantly misunderstood, and I'd like to talk about it for a minute, and that is bending of the plants. There are two types of bending. One is at the base of the plants,
where they come out of the ground. The other is at the nodes, any one of the three four nodes in the plant stem. Now, bending at the base of the plant can be very significant. It has not been evaluated scientifically, but I'm not sure it has to be. For the points I'm going to make in some crop circles, as if most people know they occur in a wide variety of plants. One of those plants is in England and in several other countries something called rape seed or come all of a plant.
It's a very thick, somewhat celery like stock which is not very pliant and becomes very brittle as the plants go to flour. These stalks, when crop circles occur in that plant, are often found to be bent absolutely at a ninety degree angle as they come out of the soil. There is no way that you can do that. I don't care what you do unless you took a hair dryer to every single plant and a huge, you know, a couple hundred foot formation. I guess you might be able to do that,
but you can't make those stems bend. If you try to bend them, they break. That's what I was gonna ask. I'm glad you brought that up, because that was a big question I wanted to ask, because those bends, well, it is very important in certain plants. It is not at all informative in others. Beyond the barley, young wheat, young oats when they're green are quite pliant. You can take aboard and smush them
over and they will bend and not break when they are pliant. Therefore, bending at the base in young green cereal plants of those sorts doesn't mean anything in particular. However, when the plants, the cereal crops, and here I'm talking about rye oats, arguing on barley wheat, the primary plants in
which cropt circles occur. When you see croft circles in mature crop where it is now brown and dry out towards the end of the season, this being mid July through August, or depending on how far far North York and even go in October in some places, in those plants, when you see bending at the base instead of the plant, the plants being crushed or broken, then it is significant because if you try mechanically yourself to flatten some standing crop
in that situation, you will find that the plants do not bend, they break, they become crushed. So that's one Those are things to keep in mind when trying to evaluate bending at the base. However, there's something else. It's bending at the node, and this is very important and is completely misunderstood with almost everyone I speak with. Young vigorously growing crop when flattened by any means a roller, a plank, or aboard your feet, or the
phenomenon itself. Unless the plant is crushed and or broken, the plants continue to grow, and what they will do. The younger they are, the more vigorously they do this. They begin to reorient themselves to gravity that's called gravitropism and to sunlight that's called photos These are absolutely natural, normal processes in the plants as they do so, they do this at the nodes. They reorient themselves, depending on their age, depending on the amount of moisture inside
toward the sun. Sometimes they do it at the top node, the apical node. Sometimes they'll do it farther down the plants stem, and they do it fairly quickly when they're young. So if a formation occurs, it's in the northern hemisphere somewhere in the beginning of June, and let's say it's June second, and you get to see that formation on June second, or third, or fourth, or maybe even fifth, and you see massive node bending
that cannot be accounted for by phototropism or gravitropism. That is probably something that happened when the formation occurred. But if you get there four or five days after the formation occurred, or several weeks after, or you don't know when the formation occurred. And you see mark bending at the nodes, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether that bending occurred when the event occurred, or whether it is these natural recovery processes, gotcha, So no bending has to
be very carefully evaluated. Yeah, I'm definitely glad you got that in there, because this show serves as a great base for those effects to look for. And in the next couple of minutes, we actually have quite a few people on that live in the UK. Maybe we could do a little bit of sure, get them on. Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, if you want to help out BLT Research bltresearch dot com. What does that take? I would like it if they would simply email me. On the BLT
research website you will see report a crop circle. Click on that. It brings up a form if you fill it in and mail it to me. Can others email me? I will get back in touch with you. If people like they can call me at the phone which is airy code six one seven four nine two zero four one five. This is in Cambridge, Massachusetts and this information is all on the website. So either email me or call
me, or just write a letter. The address the addresses there also and let me know what you're interested in, what you'd like to do, what your availability is, what your background is, et cetera. Yes, you can actually get on on this because, as you would agree, there's a lot of research that still needs to be done tons yep. So there's a lot of work out there. Well, what we've been able to do on Alejandro is we've laid a foundation. There is an enormous amount of stuff still
beinged. We're still doing work, but there are many things. I mean, you could get many people involved just on the physical stuff. I mean, then there's also, of course everything else. But there's a lot more work in examining physical effects that it hasn't been done yet. Yeah, I mean it would be a huge feat. But how incredible would it be if we had a database that showed what effects were found at these different crop circles, some of them which have amazing designs. Well, we've got quite a
bit and these published papers are on the website under published papers. Some of the soil information is there, and there's another entire study that I would love to spend an hour and a half talking with you about ye, the X rated fraction study, which is the most comprehensive scientific work that has been done to date and absolutely corroborates eleven Goods early work, but adds another whole lay
to it. Oh great, So we'll definitely talk about that, and like I said, we'll have Nancy on again in a few weeks to talk about two thousand and nine crop circles in particular. There were some people asking questions in the chat that we just weren't able to get to, but we'll get to that next time, and then soon after that we'll even go further and get into some more amazing research that Nancy has done in Holland. And you can see all of the little bit of this on the BLT well, a
lot of this stuff on the BLT research page. But thanks for being on the show, Nancy. I really appreciate your giving me the opportunity all hunger. Thanks so much. The time really flew, but luckily we'll have you on again and hope everybody likes the new time. It looks like we have a lot more Europeans on with this earlier time, which is great, So thanks for all of them joining us very happy to answer any emails from Europeans with questions. Great, yeah, I know you do a lot of work
out there and with the Europeans. Well. Thanks alahango, talk to you soon again. All right, thank you, talk to you later, everybody. Thank you for joining the show and we hope to see you next time. Check out Openminds dot tv for everything we're doing. We also got on Facebook and open Minds group that you can check out. And if you want to post some things on the UFO think Tank Wall, which I still have my site up there, or on the group the open Minds group, that'd
be great. We'd let me see it, but we will hope you I hope that you are posting or linking the BLT website from yours on your constacles. Oh well, we don't have our link site up, but I do have your link on the thing for the show today. Great yep, and that'll remain up there so anybody listening to the show will see the link and hear it multiple times. All right, everybody, have a great remainder of
your week. It's Happy Friday. Dat Callate with Maciate with Mat Callate with Bate, Mama Pnical Tory damp iCal Tlory Dama di Nical Tlory Damas