Hello, and welcome to Open Mind JUFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with a beloved, my beloved news dude, Martin lovable willis ah so much better than some of the other things are. Yeah. Well, you know, you told me about a listener beating up on you a bit, and so I wanted to to let that listener know that not everybody feels that way. In fact, most feel the opposite. That's true. That listener sucks if you ask me, and we know
they're not listening. Well, that's what's funny. These people threaten not to listen anymore, but I think a lot of times they are listening still, Well they want to listen to here if we're going to talk about them one more time. Yeah, so maybe now they're not listening, But if they stop listening, they're going to miss a good show. So that's their own problem. That's true. And you know why my guest. I'm very excited
about my guest. My guest tonight used to work out with me at Open Minds and I've always been a fan of his work, and so I'm really excited to hatch up with him. And that guest is can you guess who it is? Can you guess the guest it? Uh? God, I don't know if it would be Jason, but it would be the guy that does a video. No, Michael Shratt, Oh, Michael Shratt. Yeah, so Michael's great. So yeah, so I'll be talking to him. I haven't even recorded it. Usually by the time we talk, I've already
recorded the interview, but not in this case. I'll be talking to him in a few hours here. But uh yeah, he's still here in the Phoenix area. And in fact, I want to work with him on a project because this is something that I'm I want to do. I want to build a big model of the Phoenix Lights craft. That always great at doing models, right, Yeah, he's the master. So I'm working with him at least he's providing that the sketches and everything, and so I'm going to
build something like that. I'm also actually working on like a little guidebook, a little book. It's kind of a reference for the Phoenix Lights. Who saw what win where type of thing, what the skeptics say, so people can kind of have all of the Phoenix Lights stuff right there. And the reason I want to do that is because Phoenix lights are such a big deal here in the Phoenix area and if you're not aware of what that is.
In March thirteenth to nineteen ninety seven, many people across the state saw a V shaped object essentially fly over, and then later in the evening they saw some lights over the hills. The later evening ones, I'm convinced were flares. Some people don't believe that, most do. Most researchers, you know,
can see that those were flares. However, the other objects seen over the state are are are still unknown and in fact, you know, I've been reading a lot of the skeptics stuff and to see if there's anything there, and there's a couple interesting things they have to say, but really they have no, in my opinion, compelling argument to explain, you know,
what people said they saw. You know, I spoke with Peter Davenport a few months ago when he was telling me that when that happened, he got all these reports which were quite amazing right off the bat, and he was saying that one of the people that saw it was suggesting that it could be
miles wide plural not yet. You know, a lot of people said it was like could be a mile wide, but it said peak to peak, it could have been up to eight miles wide, which is I mean, anything you know, more than one hundred feet wide is pretty amazing anyway. Yeah, and for it to be you know, floating around no sound and all that stuff. Yeah, that that is one of in my book anyway, this is one of the top top five sightings. Actually. Yeah,
So we'll see mass Sightings when it comes out. You could see if you think that if you still feel that way after reading all the skeptics stuff, because I'm gonna you know, I want to be fair to both sides. But at least thus far, you know, my opinion has not tipped to it. It's certainly been explained personally. But we'll see. I think I have a little bit more research and I need to contact some of these skeptics, but so far I'm not convinced. But I also wanted to give an
update to my last guest, Chris Cogswell, who was awesome. He is no longer with move On, surprisingly, which is funny because a lot of the show was about how he's knew the new director of research with mofon. But of course, as some of the listeners know, there's been so much controversy with mof ON lately, and you know that's that's what happened. I guess essentially, I'll put it out there because he did explain it, and you can go on his social media and see this. But there was a
guy named John Ventry. I don't think I've had him on my show, but he was a state director out in like Massachusetts or something like that, No, Pennsylvania, sorry, and he has gone on these racist tirades. He's just he gets on these tirades. He's gone after Mark d' antonio, frequent guest that we've had, and I've even had to scold him. I
think I even had to kick him out of our forum. But because he went on this racist high rate, there was a big upheaval and move On was like defending him, and it got real bad to where people were leaving and people were threatening to leave him. Finally they said, okay, we've
let him go. Well, Chris found out that in fact, he even though he doesn't have the title of state directory, still running things and involved with the running of move On, and he just said, I can't, you know, I can't, and so he left and I don't blame him, because any organization should be able to identify that as an issue and really that. Yeah, I mean, it's an unacceptable behavior like that, and
he and he never really apologized. He kind of doubled down and would defend you know, what he was saying, and it was so very, very bad. So it's unfortunately I can't blame Chris at all. And it's actually eye opening even to me, because I feel deceived that we were told, you know, Ventry was let go, he's no longer part of the organization, and here we find out which there have been rumors to this effect, and and I kind of thought, well, they're just rumors. I don't
know if that's true. You know, I can't believe that. And Jan and the people at MOUF would would keep him around after all that, but apparently they have, so don't know what the reasoning would be. Yeah, it's very unfortunate. I mean, he I personally don't feel he's one of his researches is not that great. He used to admit to that, but
now he kind of doesn't. And then when people try to give him constructive criticism or or he just you know, gets mean and takes it personal, and so it's yeah, I don't see any I think they would have been better off, and they certainly would have had been able to keep some very important and helpful personnel if they would have just severed ties. But the rumor is and and this is just a rumor. But I don't know, I can't see why any other reason. But the rumor is that he's a he's
a big donor. Oh that would be I know, stuff like that. I know, I know, just that. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like they're five thousand dollars inner circle. Yeah, you know, for five thousand dollar donors. No, and then calling it the inner circle. That was a terrible idea. Getting donations, of course is very important, but you know, using the phrase as that they use in the news all the time, the optics aren't good when you call it the inner circle.
Yeah. So yeah, pretty well, boy, it's too bad. Yeah, what can you do? But I'm standing behind Chris one hundred percent. I think he's awesome. I think probably many of you listeners agree after listening to him last week, if you weren't already aware. But a great thinker an invaluable addition, he's certainly not dropping the UFO topic and UFO research.
So he'll be around and we'll have him on the show again. And so yeah, there we are with that one, right, okay, And otherwise in other news, that is you, my friend, that's your cue to take it away, all right, Well, I want to talk about the loss of someone really great that kind of does what we do actually open the door to a lot of us, and that wants to explore unusual things,
and that's Art Bell. Unfortunately, on Friday, the thirteenth, last week, Art Bell passed away at only well, I say only it seems young, seventy two years old. I personally, you know, I you know, I had not heard of Art Bell until about twenty eleven, which is not that long ago. But after listening to him, you know, I really really enjoyed going back into his archives of old shows, and I just love the way he was so natural with people and felt so comfort ble
in front of the mic. And so anyway, during the peak of the nineteen nineties, he had approximately five hundred North American radio stations airing right from his hometown. Peremptory passed away and he actually became you know, just this is on Snopes. Snopes a fact checking site. When he was thirteen years old, he set a Guinness World Record for broadcasting solo for one hundred and sixteen straight hours while working as a DJ. And that was in Okinawa,
Japan. So he had he had quite an interesting life. I know, he's a big ham radio guy and all that. Yeah, he had a very young yeah, a couple of young, very young children. One son was only a few months old and a daughter I think is eight or nine or something like that. Young wife. He'll be missed by all. I'm sure Heather Wade is stayed along with Keith Rolan, who have been close to him for many years, at least Keith has. So it's a been a
cost. Those are the people that are running his network when he came back, and they kind of have been carrying on for him and and and they'll keep on going. They're doing well. They are Yep, they have a lot of a lot of listeners and but you know, Art, I'm sure he'll be listened to for many years to come. There's a lot of you know, there's a lot of clips out there. There's a lot of things on YouTube, a lot of his past shows. I was really excited when
he came back on Serious XM Radio. For a while, he had kind of a habit of like leaving the air. Yeah, you know, he'd be on for a while. He get upset over something that was a contract that was actually about bumper music is the reason he left Serious. But he retired from the Dark Matter Digital Network Midnight in the Desert. He retired basically from that, let Heather Wade take over, who was his producer at the
time. And so anyway, he'd pop on every now and then. It's kind of he's just one of these figures, sort of an iconic figure that you kind of think of. Well, I would say that I kind of was thinking he'd be around for a long time. You know. It was kind of a kind of a sad and kind of a sad day. Yeah, he'd and you know what. Another interesting aspect of his background is how we got started in the UFO paranormal stuff. And guess who was his major
sponsor who helped him do it? Sponsor? Yeah, yesterday, Yeah, Robert Bigelow. Oh, you know, which makes sense because Big Load's out of Las Vegas. George Knapp, I guess was involved. That makes sense too. Because George Knapp has been covering UFOs in the mainstream media out there with KLAS for many years, George Knapp being a gendary in my eyes, I'm just such a huge fan of his. But so I guess they were all able to help arrange, you know, Art Bell getting on the air
to do this, and and you know it became important. Like you said, he was the one of the first long john Neville. Some of these people are were way better before my time. There there are a few earliers that were doing this sort of thing, but he was a big one that moved us into kind of the contemporary modern, you know, huge explosion of what is now. You know, podcasts like yours and mind like this very podcast are diamonds and there's a ton of them out there, and a lot
of us inspired and by Art Bell. I remember reading somewhere that he started out as a political podcast oh really broadcaster. He was doing you know, all politics, and he got bored with it, and I think it was like a spur of the moment. He brought someone on that was kind of in the paranormal realm, so to speak, and they noticed right away that his listenership was growing, so that was, but I'm pretty sure it was he was just all politics at one time and got bored with it. Well,
you know, there's kind of a spin out there. There's a lot of coverage by mainstream media and at least Motherboard kind of with there with this spin that kind of blaming him for on air conspiracy theorists. In fact, they I think this is going a bit far. I understand their argument, but he says he brought the world UFO's area fifty one and Alex Jones, I think that's oh a big, a bit of an overstatement. And then they go on to explain Alex Jones wasn't on his show or anything. It's
just Alex Jones also a conspiracy theorist. But Alex Jones is you know, I think what he does is very terrible. It's negative, it's it's dangerous, and PSA is a good example. Yeah, I mean it's bad, bad stuff, and I don't think you can blame Art Bell for that. Of course he did. You know, he was much He's much more light about the way he brings this stuff forward. And I think he made us think it's no problem to make people think, and you know, we certainly
need to question our government. But yeah, I think that a little bit of this spin And I think just because people are a bit frustrated, especially with the attention of people like Alex Jones, get they're kind of I think that's going a little far blaming him for that to be personally, but and it's unfortunately that gets into the story of his passing. Yeah, that is too bad. The very first clip I heard with him was the Frantic Area fifty one collar you know which, but that is that is one heck of
a one heck of a hoax. Think I was really really convincing. Yeah, yeah, Bell was neat though, what a voice and then the music. And I've never got to meet him or talk with him or anything. I would love to have. But he's he's a pretty seclusive person. I mean he yeah, kind of keeps to himself out there in the desert, that's right, yep. And there was a there supposedly you know, conspiratorial uh you know, someone was after him. You know, that's one of
the reasons he wanted to retire. He wanted Yeah, well who knows. I mean, people get threats all the time. Yeah, so but not to say that that's a good thing, or that shouldn't be taken seriously, or that it's not scary. But so I wonder if you know people were really after him, and if so, that's that's really sad. But because yeah, especially for someone like him, But yeah, it's unfortunately he's passed. It's definitely a big deal for this community. A legend has passed.
And you know, whenever we would write stories like about him coming on air or going back off air, you know, those would get a lot of hits. People really cared about him and what he did. And you know, as far as him going on and off air, I salute him as far as doing what he feels his best for him and his family and his life, because yeah, you can't let you know, these big guys kind
of control your life. You got to live your life still, And I think he had that's where his mind was, that he's got to take care of his family and live his life. And that's that became what was more important to him than doing this radio stuff. Yeah I totally get that. Yeah, agree and agree, Yeah, all right, and other news. You got any other news? I got a couple of things. Uh, no, go far away. So one of these is Tom Reid. So that poor guy. I think you've had him on your show, but he
feels that when he was a child he had this sighting. Yes, and the town where he had his sighting, this was in nineteen sixty nine, and it wasn't just a sighting. It was this large craft they saw in the forest. Many people saw this sighting, and the sighting itself was referenced
in like blue book and by Heinik. Not what happened to him afterwards, but he says that you know, him and his family went out to see this thing and they had this experience of an abduction experience, he says, So he did some pretty actually groundbreaking work and getting some attention around his case. It was in Massachusetts, and he got this people to donate and got
this memorial put in near where this happened. They also were able to get like the state you know, historical society to recognize it as an event that happened, which is pretty cool. But he's had trouble because he put the memorial on a spot that I guess was the town's land and people complained, so we had to move it soon after installing it. Well, now he's moved to. He's in Kentucky, and they're making a move it again because
I guess the spot. They moved it to his private land, but there's an easement there for the town, so they're making him move it again. And he said the town administrator who's asking him to move it was the one who chose the spot that it's on now. So surprisingly, this story is getting a lot of attention. It's in the New York Post, The AP wrote about it the last Let's see where else did I say? It?
In US News? And World Report did a story on it. So I'm not sure why this story is having so much legs in particular, but yeah, yeah, that's kind of a story that you'll probably see pop up in your Google news or wherever you read your daily news. Well, wasn't that Isn't that monument like like granted or something? Concrete? Concrete, and they're going to have to move something that weighs tons five thousand pounds two and a
half tons, Oh my god, Yeah, yeah, it's huge. So yeah, five thousand pounds, So that's probably, you know, why you're so upset. If it was didn't weigh so much, it probably would be easy. You could. I'm sure they have to get like, you know, some major piece of equipment to lift it up, and so, yeah, that's unfortunate. Yeah, you'd think that they were to relax a little
bit for some thing like this. Yep. So Tom Reid I usually see him every year in Roswell for the Roswell Festival, and I'll be in Roswell this year too. So if you come to the Roswell Museum during the festival, come say hi. Karen and I all have a table. We'll have some UFO Congress t shirts and stuff and everything. So and Tom Reid will likely be there. He's been in the last couple of years, so we'll see. You know, who should go to Roswell and chill with us?
Who's that? Martin Willis? Well, that's like the first part of July, right, is it July fourth? Yeah? Or usually the July fourth weekend. Let's see this year it is July fifth to the ninth, just after as a possibility. It's a lot of fun, all right. And I got to tell people, if you're planning on going to Roswell, you got to take some time because it's only like an hour way and go visit Carlsbad caverns. Oh, I would love to do that. That is I'm
amazing. It's only, yeah, like an hour away into the desert. Absolutely mind boggling, these humongous caverns and these caves. It's it's incredible. It's it's a one. It's so fun. I love to go there because it's a big hike. You can take an elevator, dan, or you can walk. It's much more fun to walk. It's not that bad. It's a bunch of stairs, but you can take your time and absolutely incredible.
I remember as a kid in school, like grade school, them talking about the caverns and saying they were discovered because a guy was on horseback and saw, like you thought it was a cloud, ended up being bats coming out of it. Yeah, Hue, that population stold it in there. Oh yeah. So every night you go down and then every night they do this thing at sunset where you can sit and you you watch in a part ranger tells you all about the bats and everything as you wait for them to
come out. And then they start to come out, and I think it's for like half an hour, this huge cloud of spiraling bats come out of the cave. And you sit there and watch, and you know, they say it's okay to talk. Just don't take flash photography because that can't spook them. And you could take a flash photography and then they get spooked and then they go. Some of them return to the cave and don't come out, and then they don't come out for the night, and of course then
they don't eat. But they're really important because to the entire desert, they fly for miles and miles and miles, eating bugs but also dropping guarna in Iguana. They're droppings which fertilize the entire desert. So they're like really important. But we're out of time, we are I see that bump bump bom. So thank you so much Martin for joining us with the news. You
can check out Martinette pod cast UFO and I Know on. Thanks, thank you, and we'll be right back after this short break with our guest Michael Shratt. So stay tuned. You're listening to Open minds UFO Radio. I am very happy to welcome back to the show Michael Shrat. How are you, Michael, Hi, Elejandro doing good. It's probably been years since I've had you on my podcast, although for a while there. I think I had you on a lot. We did a show seven years ago. Yes,
seven years yep, Oh my gosh, yep. That is a long time ago. But you know what in those seven years, and I don't know how you've done this, and i'd like to know the secret. I don't think you've aged today, No way. You look you look just like you did. I think the very first time I saw you. No way, it's impossible, because the first time I saw you face to face was probably at a local Phoenix move On. Sure, but yeah, you are like the ageless? Are you part extraterrestrial? Let's just get that out.
Could be you never know. Ah, you're not gonna let us know for sure though, top secret, keep it under wraps. But it is great. Yeah, I mean seriously, And I remember maybe the first time we talked about at least one of the first was at a conference, maybe a move On conference, just probably ten years ago or so. And uh yeah, and you're still still going. Yeah, there's still more fruit on the vine. And uh, I'm not gonna give up. As you know,
we're tech. So what I try to point out in my lectures is that the United States government is nothing more than a temporary custodian of those assets. So technically we own the aircraft, we own the hangars, we own the facilities, we own the runways, we own the libraries, there the archives. We even pay the salary of those people. So they're just temporary custodians.
We have every right to question authority. But this is an interesting aspect thinking about you know, back, one of the things I asked you was, despite this, despite your criticism of the way the money is spent, the waste and the over secrecy, you if they came to you and said, hey, do you want to work on our next black project, you'd be there in a heartbeat. I would be there in a heartbeat. Yeah. But I guess from the inside you could do your best, I guess
to make sure the money's spent correctly. Huh. You would think so. But when you start hearing these reports that taxpayers spent two million dollars to send two thirty nine cent washers across the United States, you start raising these red flags. And that's happened over and over again. Really, yep, and these aren't special washers or anything. This is just no, no, that's kind of my hobby is to track these fraud, waste, and abuse. And I've got just dozens of examples of this, right, So you need
to be in some sort of watchdog agency. M Yeah. So some of the stuff that in particular you have touched upon, although you do, you've done all kinds of different cases, but are the triangle craft that people see, right? And it seems that you are convinced the government is working or has developed triangular aircraft. And what I'd be going to too far if I said anti gravity, I would think that you're certainly heading down the correct road,
Alejandro. As I've mentioned before, it's just my personal assessment that ninety five percent of what people are reporting as extraterrestrial flying triangles, if you want to call them, are our own deep black programs. The remaining five percent represent the unknown part of this phenomenon. I'm not saying by any means that all of them are man made, because, as you know, and as David Marler has pointed out multiple times before, these triangle cases go back to
eighteen ninety six. Lockheed's skunk works wasn't around back then. Jack Northrop hadn't even begun flying these flying wings back at that time, So to say that they're all men made just wouldn't be consistent with what we know about the historic record. Plus, if you look at Jacques Valet and his research, and I think he has a lot of good points to bring out. He's that UFOs usos unidentified submerged objects have been seen coming and going out of the oceans.
The phenomenon has been around for thousands of years. They can materialize and de materialize at will. They've been seen going in and outside the sides of mountains. So I don't think we're looking at a man made craft in those cases. But in the cases where you do think it might be, I think you have a great argument because the triangle sidings seem to be and I talk about this over and over again. When we have these people who have
had these sidings, or with Marler or with others, they're different. They're so much more blatant. Often, although the minority percentage wise of sightings are triangles, the most spectacular sidings are often triangles where they're like hovering right over people's cars. Correct. Correct. We can certainly get into a few of those cases. We can talk about Colin Saunders case. He had a fantastic sighting it. I'd love to hear about it. Yeah, no problem.
If all you have to do is YouTube his name Colin Saunders, and you can see his fantastic sighting. Great case, great case, and it's basically in a nutshell nineteen ninety nine. Four individuals, this is March thirty first, nineteen ninety nine, driving down kind of a deserted road, made a kind of a left turn and were surprised and shocked to see four red lights
at about a fifteen degree angle up toward the left. And as they got closer they could see that what they were looking at were just not four lights, but they were looking at the back of a triangular or diamond shaped craft. This was the aft end of what they saw. And then not too far after that, according to Colin, this craft made a ninety degree tip up maneuver like it was quote underwater, very slow maneuver. On the top
side of this craft. He identified these raised box sections. Just incredible. He also mentioned that the upper surface of the craft, the surface of the vehicle look like it was moonlight shining on a lake. It had this reflectivity, the shimmering effect, like it was alive. We've heard this before as well, basically very almost silent typecraft. And this has been seen in the modern day. Sightings of these triangles appear to have started in nineteen seventy four
and they've been seen all around the world. So you know, with your work and what technologies may or may not be out there, what sort of technology might we had in nineteen ninety nine that could explain that. Well, what I like to do is I try to track the legacy and the pattern recognition of what we're dealing with here. And what I mean by that is if you look at multiple cases and start to see this pattern developing. Now,
we just talked about the Colin Saunders case nineteen ninety nine. I've got a case here from David Marler. This is November twenty second, nineteen eighty five, Madison, Wisconsin, where we had a state employee who saw approximately forty foot wide black triangle go directly over his location and just going to read you the quote of what he said. Now, this is the bottom surface
of the craft. The underside of the craft appeared to resemble quote, the back of a refrigerator, like a collection of condensation pipes that ran back and forth after gliding over the witnesses vehicle, the craft departed at a tremendous speed and left no sonic boom. So this is nineteen eighty five. And we keep hearing, Alejandro, this same thing over and over and over again, not just triangles, but boomerangs as well. So we've got these tubes,
pipes, cylinders on the bottom of these craft. Now I've just highlighted one case here. This is November twenty second, nineteen eighty five. The same tubes, pipes, and cylinders were seen on the Hudson Valley boomerang nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty nine. The same tubes, pipes and cylinders were seen on the bottom of the Belgium triangle nineteen eighty nine nineteen ninety. We also have a mechanical understructure being seen on the bottom of the January fifth, two
thousand, Southern Illinois Triangle case as well. So that's just four to five cases right there. I've got twelve other cases in my files where witnesses are reporting these strange tubes, pipes, and cylinders, and a lot of these cases are taking place on Thursday nights, Alejandro. Just for example, the Phoenix Lights case took place March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, which was a
Thursday night. And that's very significant because within the black world of defense contractors, which I call Aerospace Alley, starting from Sandy Diego, Southern California, going up pch going into Hawthorne where Northrop is, and then sort of like hanging right where Burbank Skunkworks used to be, going up the fourteenth toward Lancaster where the L ten eleven hangar is, which is now the current Skunkworks location. And then that's also the same location of Air Force Plant forty two where
Northrop and Boeing also has facilities. That's where the Rockwell Space Shuttle facility was, and then continuing north to Edwards Air Force Base and terminating with Skilled Composites in Mojave, California. So if anyone who wants to know what's going on within the black world of aerospace research, just take your ride through Aerospace Ellie and you can see the facilities interesting. Sean Calvin, you're probably familiar.
You may be familiar with him. He's got a Facebook site called Triangle UFOs and he was convinced in his research that, you know, there's no way that these triangles could be human made until he saw his own. And he was in Las Vegas, that's where he lives. He was driving, he says, near Area fifty one actually, and this triangle craft was just above his car. You know, you've heard these stories before. He stops his car, he looks and just triangle craft. It's not too incredibly large,
you know. I think he felt it was like twenty thirty feet wide, and it was over the car, and then it continued towards Area fifty one. He said, it hugged, it followed the contour, it stayed and the same distance to the ground the whole time, and you know, kind of following the contour up over the mountains. And he said, looking at the bottom of this thing, like for example, the lights they look like
incandescent lights. They look like, you know, there's a filament there, and these were just all he was like, oh my gosh, this is completely human and he changed his mind at that moment. Interesting you mentioned that I've got another case from David Marler. This is Woodhead Pass near Barnsley, England, August twenty fifth, nineteen ninety where a police officer with thirty years of experience was with his wife. They were returning from a Fleetwood Mac music
concert. It was around eleven to fifty nine pm. They're driving home and off to the left, emerging from this dark, misty cloud, comes this two hundred foot per side black flying triangle. It had one light at the center and the center part had a relieve section. And I believe I've sent you some photos of my card stock model, Alejandro, so you can, you know, maybe the listeners can follow along somehow, but yeah, I'll post those, and yep, I love this one. This one is so
cool. I'm glad you're going over this. Yeah. I like this case too, because I mean thirty year witness talking about police office, thirty years of experience, a reliable witness. He also said that it had a white point on each of the triangle terminating sections, and then on this relief section
on the inside, it had this cross beam and girder construction. Now that is the same exact description that we've heard from hundreds, repeat hundreds of eyewitnesses on the Hudson Valley case, where they reported seeing this crossbeam and girder construction through these transparent panels where you could look up inside the craft. For the
Hudson Belly case. That's what this guy's describing. And then he goes on, not only did David provide me with the text from this case and I'm looking at it right now, he also provided me with a copy of the original sketch by the original eyewitness. Now I'm not going to read the whole thing, but there's one sentence here that I thought was very interesting. He said that he saw some what looked like human figures looking back at him.
And here's what this guy I said here says the side of the craft appear to have several illuminated windows, and at one of the windows, I saw two to three figures that appeared to be human. Certainly, nothing about the figures made me think they were anything other than human, reinforcing my belief that
the craft was a military project. Yeah, this image is so fun because you have these guys and overalls, you know, in the image that you've put together on this and they're just kind of like, you know, we would if you and I were on this craft, just with their hands at their sides looking out the window, which you know, makes me think of if these are humans, just what it would be like, you know, to these guys, it's every day work and they're probably enjoying the view or
something. But here they are standing in this this object that is doing things that you know, humans most humans do not realize it is even possible, given the laws of physics. And the other thing too, is many times we hear about flashing lights, and like in the Hudson Valley case, we hear about flashing lights, but not haphazard in sequence. Monico Driscoll had a siding in nineteen eighty three and she described how these multicolored flashing lights would flash
in sequence up and down the wing of the craft. So you have the reds go off, blues go off, yellows go off, whites go off up and down this wing section, but all in sequence, indicating that there was a purpose, almost like it wanted to be seen. It was brazen, it was too cool for school. This thing wanted to be seen. And so many of these cases that seems to be the case, that it appears that this thing wants to be seen or at thease. So what are
your theories behind that? Good question. The only thing I would add to that is we talked a little bit before Thursday nights. So many of these cases to Connock State Parkway Thursday night, March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven. Thursday night. I was told by Tony Gonzalez that the reason why they do this on Thursday nights is because Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is pre flight, Thursday is the test flight, Friday's debrief, Saturday Sunday there's generally no one
at the facility. So that's why Thursdays are very keenly something to look into because Thursdays are also when the quote unquote first generation Aurora was tested over the entire Los Angeles basin, booming people on a Thursday morning around six twenty nine am, the last Thursday of the month for about three years in that time period. So when you put this together, we can start stitching this tapestry of these tests flights of these classified vehicles which are paid for by our tax
dollars and have no congressional oversight and no public scrutiny. Now I may have told you this before, but maybe you have your Do you have an idea as to why that craft was named the Aurora? I do have an idea because in Ben Rich's book Skunk Works, he indicates that the term Aurora was used as the procurement funding for the B two stealth bomber, and it has been erroneously repeated for almost three decades now as the code name for a top
secret hypersonic replacement for the SR seventy one Blackbird. It's completely false. That's not the name of it. That's interesting. Yeah, no, people have gotten this wrong for decades. Well, here's here's the story. I have Quad Swanson. Do you remember him. I don't. He's a theoretical physicist. I think he's still in Tucson right now. But great guy. He's spoken at the conference a couple of times. But he says he was working
on this project and it was a cover project. He knew it, you know, as a project they were working on essentially a propulsion where these lasers would hit a like radioactive material, create an explosion and it would propel a craft or at least in this case, it was for energy to create energy. It was theoretically possible, but he knew, you know, it wasn't something they could obtain at the time, nor did they have the research or
the budget, but the money was going elsewhere. This project was in Colorado at what is their base there used to be where Space Command was out of and then they moved in. They've moved it to Cheyenne. Before that, it was in Aurora at this base that I can't remember what it is look at it as we're talking. But that's why they named it the project. He felt that it was sort of an extension and that's where they came up with the name Aurora. And it was way back when, so I guess
it's possible. As far as I know. According to ben Rich, that term is specifically pertaining to the B two funning. Now, when that project was unveiled November twenty second, nineteen eighty eight. Well, now we know that what it was, it was for the B two stealth bomber. But this is according to ben Rich in his own books, so I have to take his word for it. Yeah, he's the authority, so it would
make sense to listen to him. But that's really interesting. Now, another one of these, and so if you don't mind, I'll share these. They might be on open minds already brought. I'll share these images for people to be able to look at. Absolutely absolutely. Another fascinating one is Yorktown nineteen eighty five. If you could describe that one Maureen Davis. Okay,
this is a good case. Now I have to give credit. I have to give credit to Linda Zimmerman. She's the one who interviewed Maureen Davis. So credit has to go to her for vetting this case out. But what I really like to describe in this case, and Linda talks about this from the very beginning, if you can't trust a reference librarian, who can you trust? I mean, this is just very a very humble woman, very honest lady. She's a reference library. And I mean, if you can't
trust that, who are you going to trust? Right? So that's the first thing we should point out. Now as the story goes, Maureen was waiting for her husband near a bus stop. Try to recall this the best I can, and out of nowhere comes this black Isoceles triangle. It wasn't an acute triangle, but it was an Asaceles triangle. And a lot of times we hear about these craft being the side of a football field. Okay, we keep hearing this over and over again. Hudson Valley, Boomerang,
Belgium triangle. It was the size of a football field. That's not the case here, Alejandro. This particular craft, according to Maureen Davis, was the size of a football field stadium, over eight hundred feet across black triangle. It measured about one hundred feet thick. It had aft lights, it had a white at each of the corners. And then what's interesting, Alejandro,
in this particular case, this is something very unique. Maureene saw an iris open up on the bottom of this craft, a large circular opening, and she got a view on the inside of the craft itself. She described it as terraced apartment complexes stacked together with multiple lights on each of the floors. So if you were taking these almost looks like pizza boxes stacked up on each other with a one inch gap between them. That's what this looked like.
And she also said that this red orb came from behind the craft, went up inside the circular opening, it closed up, and then this thing departed at a high rid to speed, left no sonic boom. What's interesting about all of these cases is they they're describing these incredible structures, huge immense but they're all so very different. Mm hmm, yeah, you're right.
And as you know, with these these humongous budgets that you're talking about and these huge wastes where the you know, you've talked about these where they're even just coming up with a blueprints of a craft without even building it could cost millions and millions of dollars. Sure, sure, that must mean that they're spending and have been spending a lot of money. Well, Jane's Defense Weekly two thousand and six reported that sometime in the nineteen sixties. Now they're not
even sure. Even Jane's Defense Weekly doesn't know exactly when this happened. All they said is in the nineteen sixties, something called the Dawson Report was handed over to Washington d C. And in the Dawson Report is nothing less than all of Nazi Germany's secret stealth technology that the UK and Allies basically mopped up
at the close of World War Two. The British government had a tremendous dossier of all the classified research that the Nazis were working on at the end of World War Two, and that was handed over to the United States government somewhere in the nineteen sixties, probably after JFK was assassinated. So what's in that we don't know for sure, but we absolutely know and this is borne out by the article that the UK and US government has had a long standing relationship
dealth technology. In other words, the Brits have their triangles too. Interesting, So we'll talk more about that. We're going to go to break right now. We are talking to Michael Schratt. You're listening to Open Mind GUFO Radio. We're going to have a short break. If you're listening to the podcast, you'll hear a music musical interlude, but if you're listening on KGRA you will hear a commercial break and we'll be right back with Michael Shratt.
Welcome back to Open Mind GUFO Radio. This is your host, Alejandro Rojas and I am here with the amazing Michael Trat and we're having a great conversation here. And before we came to break, you were talking about this report that talked about how the US and the UK had retrieved, you know, these documents from this technology from the Nazis essentially, and that the UK has
their triangles as well. And of course they've had their sightings. And I've got a great story from Nick Pope where he said that I think it was the costs for sighting they contacted the Americans and said, hey, you know, we got this triangle flying around, is it's yours? And the Americans responded, no, we've got these triangles flying around. We're going to ask
you the same things. Although Nick admits, you know, himself and his American counterparts may not be aware of other programs going on, wouldn't be the first time that the United States intelligence community used their policy of lying, denying, and deceiving a program. Give you a couple of quick examples. Lockheed F one seventeen Have Blue was a completely black program that eventually turned into what we know today is the Stealth Fighter. They successfully kept that under wraps for
decades. The first flight was December one, nineteen seventy seven at Groom Lake Area fifty one with HAVE Blue. Bill Park was the test pilot on that particular flight, and they kept that program under wraps. They successfully did it, so when they want to keep a secret, they can do it, no doubt about it. And one of the things just to move nowhere, moving from topic to topic, but just so much to talk about. But with these cases that we've talked about, for the most part, you've built
these models. So first of all, you have great imagery where you've done like kind of the CG renders that you've put in backgrounds that are similar. Beyond that, you've also created kind of these blueprints that demonstrate the craft and sometimes your ideas about what technologies sure they may be using. And then third you've also, now this is more recently, created the these models where people can cut out on the paper and you've got instructions on how they can build
models of these craft. And what was your inspiration to do that? Yeah, good question. I just want to make it real. I want to make it come alive. I want to make it my own and the only way to do that is to keep everything visual. Everything I do, Alejandro, as you know, is completely visual. It's all image based, it's all illustration based. And the way to make these cases come alive is to build a model of them and then you have something you can hold in your
hand. You can demonstrate this at a presentation. That's what Colin Saunders did. He talks about how the craft tipped up ninety degrees. You've got to have a model to do that. So I just started tracking these cases and the ones that I felt would make a good candidate for a card stock model. I've made the model, and I've provided it free of charge. This is a crusade. I'm certainly not in this for the money. So if anyone wants blueprints of these, just hit me up and I'll send you the
blueprints. You can build it yourself, and you can verify with the reference data and the reference material that these are real cases. And in most of these cases, we've paid for them with our own text dollars, so that's really the inspiration. And what we'll do is I'll post the ones that you've given me regarding the cases we've talked about, but you have many, many
more, so sure people can talk with you. And you've provided a picture here of some of the other ones that you have, and you know, hopefully, and I think we've talked about this a bit, but hopefully this next UFO Congress you can make it and then people can come and actually see them and touch them and get the blueprints as well. Better yet, I'll make you a whole series and you can put them in your display case.
Perfect. That would be amazing, That would be awesome. So one of the models that you have here next to you've at a table at a conference, I think this was move on. If I remember correctly, I believe it's the unacknowledged premiere last April. That might be really oh okay with the black black tablecloth. Yeah, yeah, that's from unacknowledged premiere. Okay. And you've got you know, your craft spread out here. And of course one of those which I want to make a large model of myself for the
Congress and for other events is the Phoenix Lights event. Yes, bump bump bomb, So Mark uh hut So, I wanted to ask you your thoughts. This is March thirteen to nineteen ninety seven, large triangular craft at least earlier in the day eight eight pm hour seen from out by Kingman kind of more needles, Laughlin area and then seeing over Phoenix and down into Tucson this object. Do you believe that this one? Because it is triangular shaped as
well, it's more of a chevron of V shape. Do you think that also is a large black project craft? Good, good question, Aldjandro. Let's let's break it down here and we'll talk about the timeframe. The first siding took place seven to fifty five pm Henderson, Nevada. Then the next sighting was eight fifteen pauld in, Arizona, then Prescott at eight seventeen, over Phoenix at eight thirty pm, ending in Tucson at eight forty five pm.
We're looking at a distance of one hundred and sixteen miles just for the center part of this particular case. And if you do the time and distance that it traveled, it was going four hundred and sixty four miles an hour to do this whole thing. So one thing we can eliminate is flares. Flares were seen similar to the time that they took place, but obviously flares don't describe everything. The other thing I want to point out is it did
take place on a Thursday night. March thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, was a Thursday. Tim Lee was the primary eyewitness. I interviewed him at his location. He said that this thing was so low that he could throw a soft ball and hit the bottom of it. That's how low this thing was. And a lot of people think that this was a mile across. According to Tim and National Geographic did laser GPS scanning and measurements, it was fifteen
hundred feet across, plus or minus ten feet. That's according to National Geographic. So although it was large. It wasn't a mile across, it was about fifteen hundred feet across. And one thing I want to point out is that multiple eyewitnesses in this case also reported what they termed pipes and cylinders on the bottom of the Phoenix lights Craft. Well that's interesting, yep, that
was reported. And what's interesting too is we've got the twenty twenty five report air Force twenty twenty five report, and in that report they discuss how they're going to be using airborne mobile holographic image projection technology to basically full an unsuspecting opponent in their words, So this is a technology that they'd like to have, and anytime you hear about something that they'd like to have, it's already
been fielded. So I'm just saying that one possibility for the Phoenix lights Craft might have been a holographic image projection technology. That's very interesting, and that's where you can get this fifteen hundred two thousand foot wide craft. Everybody says it's just too big to build, Well, it's not built. It's a projected image. A lot of even Bill Scott talks about some of the eyewitnesses said that this thing was translucent. You could see through it. It had
this invisible quality to it, like it was projected. We can't rule it out now. If this were the case, it traveled across the state and at a speed that is not known for aircraft, especially in military aircraft. Does that mean that it would be projected from a craft you think? Or yeah, that's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking. And again, I'm not making this up. It's not coming directly from me. I want to quote my sources. This is the twenty twenty five report and this is
section five point six. Listen to what they have to say. It says the holographic projector displays a three dimensional visual image in a desired location removed from the display generator. The projector can be used for psychological operations and strategic perception management. It is also useful for optical deception and cloaking, providing a momentary
distraction when engaging an unsophisticated adversary. Really right there and all thought, right there, right And at the CEES conference, which is the tech conference this year, I believe they had something like that. They had a holographic thing that was not quite to the degree, but very close to like what we see in star wars. Uh so, I mean, if they're doing that for entertainment purposes, who knows. I guess what the military industrial complex could
have developed. I like their terminology here, psychological operation, strategic perception. And then they're talking about when engaging an unsophisticated adversary, So do they consider all of us an unsophisticated adversary? I just thought that was interesting. That is interesting. Yeah, they So, in this technology, you could project an image of tanks on a battlefield and it'd be one hundred percent believable. You could project an image of F fifteen's flying in a squadron or F sixteens.
You could do a B two stealth bomber and look one hundred percent believable. You could deceive an entire battlefield with this technology and they would never know the difference while the actual attacks are taking place hundreds of miles away. They
have the technology. It's a done deal. That's fascinating. And you know one aspect, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this of the reasons why you know a psychological warfare e for or at least influencing would serve them in this arena it's to make us believe that there are or let us believe that there are alien spacecraft visiting here. Like I think of Area fifty one, for example, when before the CIA and it was big news that you
know, they admitted Area fifty one was real. If I would talk to Area fifty one about people, they would say, oh, that's not real, there's no alien base. And I would say, well, it's not alien. I mean, it's top secret aircraft is what they're doing. But they were skeptical because of this attachment to aliens and UFOs and so a lot of people didn't believe it existed. And then when it comes out, they're like, oh, wow, it's real. And of course I've been telling
you that for years. So for instance, with Area fifty one, it worked. This comes from Bill Scott, so I'm not making this up either. But he talked about how, as you know, the U two spyplane in nineteen fifty five was developed for the CIA, and the A twelve, which became the SR seventy one, was originally a CIA project. So it's not just the Air Force that's involved in this. We have other intelligence agencies
also involving, and so these projects are getting cross bread and overlapping. You could have something operated by the CIA that the US Air Force doesn't have any knowledge of. It could be an NRO program, National Reconnaissance Office, it could be an NSA program. And when you mix all these together, if there's a sighting of something, they absolutely will use the extraterrestrial card to cover their own deep black programs. And as Bill Scott said, they've been doing
this for fifty years, why would they stop now? And Who's Bill Scott? Bill Scott is the former Rocky Mountain editor of avih week Space Technology. He spent at least twenty years tracking down these black programs, an entire career of being on the inside and interviewing people who have an inside knowledge of this, engineers, test pilots, people who've worked on the Black World, people who've worked on the A twelve, people who worked on Black Star program.
He talked about how some of these programs are nothing more than scapegoats where they charge time to another program, but they build it on something else that goes on. But basically, he said that we're dealing with a four hundred piece puzzle, but we only have two hundred of the pieces, so it's our job to piece this together. But what they're doing is the intelligence agencies,
they're throwing mud into the works. They're throwing a wrench into the works, and they're making it difficult for all of us to piece this thing together. So they'll, by no means will they have any problem trying to use the ET card to hide their own black programs. They're going to do it. And so when you hear about something the very next day you see on the supermarket checkout tabloids UFO citing alien involved, and the intelligence agencies are promoting this
which as a way to hide their own projects. Yes, I mean, of course, I talk a lot about the Doughty situation, the Doughty case. You know Doty who worked for Air Force Office of Special Investigations at Kurentland Air Force Base, who says that's what he did. You know, he invented all of these these stories to make this guy, you know across the street, an engineer, believe that these thinks were UFOs and aliens to cover
up what they were really doing there. That's the only kind of blatant admission we have from anyone. And he really, at least as far as anyone can tell didn't get in trouble for what he was doing, which you know, it's hard to say. He's lied about many, many, many things, so it's hard to say for sure just take his word for it, but that lends credence to perhaps he really what did do all of this at the beheads of his superiors. Well, let me give you another example,
Alejandro. As you know, January fifth, two thousand wasn't a watershed event. This was a world famous, made news all around the world. This is when at least three separate police officers and a miniature golf course owner by the name of Melvern Knowle, who is coming home from one of his truck driving he saw what looked like a single story ranch with a penthouse on top flight directly over his miniature golf course. But then what's interesting is we have
three separate triangle sightings associated with this particular event. One police officer, Craig Stevens extremely reliable. Now this is from the Collinsville Journal January six, two thousand, back in two thousand, so I'm quoting my sources here. And what he said is I took his drawing. I think you have a copy of the drawing. I do. I'm looking at it. He describes this craft in great detail, kind of an arrowhead, triangular shaped craft with a
strobing light that strode from left to right in the back. And let me just read you really quickly what this newspaper article says. His officer says he is ninety eight percent sure object was experimental or military. Then he goes on as this craft flew over his location by his squad car. Officer Stephen stated that the craft tried to quote camouflage itself against the night sky end quote and
was quote projecting the starfield above it on the underside. Alejandro, this is exactly what you would expect if you're using electrochromic panels, where you can blend in with the background, essentially causing yourself to become invisible. It's a man made technology that was talked about in the mid nineteen nineties and pulper science.
It's already been done, it's already been fielded. Well, I just got back from NAB and of course National Association of Broadcasters, where it's all av kind of equipment, and every year the big deal is, you know, the bigger, lighter, skinnier screens and they're so huge now and they're so thin and light. I think they've even talked about a new TV coming out where it's like a piece of plastic, So you put this piece of plastic
and you can project whatever you want exactly exactly. They have made the breakthrough. They can put any image on the bottom if they want to. It could be daylight, it could be clouds, it could be trees, it could be anything, and it would completely blend in. That's what this officer is stating. He said he's ninety eight percent. I believe he's corrects. He's nailed it. He's got it. Yep, go ahead and go ahead.
I was just going to say, you know, getting back to another point that you were making, is that a lot of people don't realize stealth technology. Area fifty one was created by Lockheed for the CIA. And although stealth technology we know it and talk about it, and we see stealth fighters and we think of the military and the Air Force with stealth, it was actually you know, nro CIA projects. So is that what you think these are? These are you know, device or essentially craft where they can obs
unnoticed. Okay, let's talk about some real quick origins in history. The modern day. Portion of stealth actually started in October nineteen seventy three with the Israeli air Campaign also known as the Jan Kipper War, where a number of American Allied F four fantoms were shot down and the US government provided the Israeli Air Force with the four fantoms and a number of these aircraft were shot down. So the Pentagon, the DoD they try to figure out, what can
we do to improve our odds? What can we do to solve this situation. Our pilots are getting shot down, Israeli pilots were losing planes. What can we do? So in nineteen seventy four, DARPA and the US Air Force came together to put together something called Project Harvey, and that was to design, develop, and test fly a low observable stealth aircraft. There were five aerospace contractors involved. Eventually that was boiled down to two, including Northrop
and Lockheed. Lockheed won the contract with their Have Blue with Bill Park at the controls December first, nineteen seventy seven at Groom Lake. Ben Rich was there on the test flight and also Kelly Johnson, who was retained as a consultant after he retired in nineteen seventy five, Northrop lost the contract and their project was called the XST Experimental Survivable Test Bed. And Alejandro that one image I showed you with the card stock model, that is the Northrop XST that
was the losing competitor to Lockheed's Have Blue. From there it developed into the F one seventeen, a stealth fighter. And I really think that this is the jumping off point of a lot of these black programs, including the Triangles, the Boomerangs. Similar to when the Reagan build up started in nineteen eighty one, so eighty one to eighty nine, we had this huge exponential growth
in black programs. Uh, this is exactly when the Hudson Valley growth took place as well, So side by side, it's a it's a complete comparison. You can see the exponential growth of funding in the black world happen exactly when Reagan took office. These programs just started getting funding left and right. And even Aviation Week said eight years of the Reagan administration were very good to
the black world. Very interesting. We are out of time. It makes uh, it makes a lot of sense too, So it's just absolutely fascinating. I always have such a fun time talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. No problem. So where can people go to converse with you or see more? You can find me on Facebook or you can email me at AU R O R A C A, Dais and dog the number five at aol dot com. So it's auroraceadfive aol dot com. If you want to copy the blueprints, hit me up with an email
and I'll send you the blueprints. Awesome, Thank you so much. I think it's a great service you do by providing those. By the way, No problem. Thanks a lot on Larndrew. Thank you so much to Michael for being on the show. Amazing stuff. He's always so much fun to have on the show, so knowledgeable and you know you can tell accuracy and sourcing is so important to him, which is always important when you're reporting or
researching and journalism. It's important to show that you're just not pulling this stuff right out of here, you know what, like so many do. Unfortunately, he's a great researcher. He's a lot of fun and I'm so happy to have him back on the show. Amazing to hear that it was seven years since we talked. That's crazy. Anyway, lots of cool stuff going on. You can check out the UFO Congress. We posted some really cool stuff, so, for instance, we've got some new products at the store.
Also on the YouTube page we posted the EB Awards ceremony, so you can see that. Congratulations to the winners there and you can see who those winners are. Are really cool and you get to see their talk. Also, we've got Michael Carter up. I've had him a couple times on the show. Just a wonderful person. You can find those at the video portal. So remember the UFO Congress Video Portal where you can watch hundreds of videos for just a few bucks a month. Really cool stuff, so check all
that out. You can go to Ufocongress dot com. Of course, everything that we talked about at the beginning of the show, all of that news you can find out at Openminds dot tv. You can find the Lovable Martin Willis at Podcast UFO. And I also want to thank Caleb Hanks for the opening and the close music. I want to thank Systematics for the bumper music, and of course, as always, I want to thank you the lovable listeners for joining us here today. Until next time, Audio smooth chutto was moss