Marc D’Antonio, MUFON Photo Analyst

This is Open Lines Radio. Here again your host, UFO paranormal researcher and journalist Alejandro Rojas. Hello, and welcome to Open Minds Radio. This is Alejandro Rock and we have another exciting show because we have a major debunker. Just kidding. Everybody says this poor guy's a debunker, but he's just a hardworking photo and video analyst. He has move On's analyst, Mark di'antonio,

and he's worked on a lot of great cases lately. And one of the things I want to do is talk to him about his UFO experiences, how he feels about UFOs, some of his theories and ideas, because often people think that, you know, he does this debunking stuff and it's not his fault if Unfortunately, there are many people hoaxing UFO photos and if you are one of those people, stop it. That's not cool. So we'll be talking to him about some of this stuff because he does have some great information

and he's a really neat guy, real funny guy. So this is going to be a really good show. I'm really excited about it. But welcome to the show. At our new time at seven pm on Mondays, Arizona Slash Pacific time right now, so we're a little earlier. So hopefully our buddies out there in the United Kingdom don't have to stay up, you know, till the wee hours of the morning to hear our show. Now they just have to stay up into the very big hours of the night to listen

to the show. But we do very very much appreciate our UK, our Philippines and our other international listeners that we have throughout the world to email us with their stories. That's always a lot of fun. Also, I want to remind you, and we'll have a little reminder coming up here a little promo about the UFO Congress because we're signing up new people all the time.

And if you saw the television show Fact or Faked, where they were in Arizona and they investigated a gentleman by the name of Jeff Willis who had some UFO videos and then they tried to debunk them, essentially tried to recreate them themselves and weren't able to And after they weren't able to do that, they decided to shoot some night vision of the sky themselves and they got several UFO videos that were really good that shocked the heck out of them, and you

know, they went back to their analysis and they thought, wow, these really were UFOs. We can't explain what the heck these lights flying around the sky going one direction super fasten turning around and go the other direction and stuff like that. So you can check that out. I think they have most of the parts of it on YouTube. They even have it actually at their website. Fact or Faked is that what it's called fact or faked the UFO

shows, So check it out. Although we're a good buddy, Chuck Zukowski said, the cattle mutilation episode was really bad, so don't watch that one. Just watch the Arizona one. But the point I was getting at, which I almost forgot, was that Jeff Willis, who took that video that they analyzed, will be hosting and doing a little talk at the SkyWatch that

we're going to have at the UFO Congress. We're really excited about this because we've talked the people who essentially kind of hosts the area to allow us to stay later into the night from about ten pm till midnight. Will actually be there all the way from seven pm till midnight, but they usually kick everyone out at ten o'clock. They're gonna let us stay and do some guy watching. We're gonna have some night vision goggles. We're gonna have Jason and Maureen,

which is very, very exciting to have them there with us. We'll have the whole crew. Antonio, Michael Shrat, our video guy, Tom Ruffin, DJ, John Reo, Angela Reo. If you know who those guys are, some of you don't because they kind of stay incognito. They don't like toay, like get in front of the cameras and everything. But these are all people who help make Open Minds run. And speaking of running, we're so excited about our magazine because our new magazine is being shipped very

soon. Here the latest edition, which is mainly focused abound around UFO landings and the Rendalschrimp Forest case. Now, if you're thinking, wow, that's great, you have to be a subscriber to get it in the next couple of weeks, otherwise you're gonna have to wait and get it from the bookstores. The bookstore are loving it, many of them. We've gotten a lot

of great feedback. We've heard of bookstores that are are just really excited and trying to carry as much as they can, and so they're going fairly quick at the bookstore. If you want to get yours as soon as possible, which I advise, because you want to be up on the latest and greatest. You want to be the guy to go to the water cooler and say,

so, did you guys know XYZ about Rendelstrom Forrest? Because if you don't get the subscribe and get the magazine earlier, then your buddy at work is going to upstage you and he's going to say, hey, yeah, I knew that. Did you know this? And you'll be like, oh man, I don't have the latest info, and you'll feel very foolish. So you need to subscribe to get the magazine as soon as possible, and you'll have that pretty little puppy in your hands within hopefully within like a couple

of weeks. If you go to the website open Minds dot tv and subscribe it right now. It's beautiful as usual and we're just always extremely excited about it, and in fact, we've heard from most upologists they love it. Call up your favorite ufologists Facebook, email them and say what do you think of this whole Open Minds magazine thing? And they'll probably say, you know what, I think it's awesome and you should get it because they're all our

buddies. They've all mostly been on the show or they're scheduled to be on the show, and they're all loving it. So we are very proud and happy that that is the case. Then we include stories from some of your favorite ufologists, So we're very very happy about the magazine and we hope you love it too. One of the great things about our website and move On's website because they host our news, is that we have news updates on a

regular basis. This is conventional news covering the whole UFO arena. And one of the great things about our radio show is that we have Jason McClellan here to talk about the news. And the biggest news story I didn't touch on because I wasn't sure if you were going to turn out. I forgot to ask you, So let's see if you do, we'll see. Greetings Doctor Rolejandro, and hello world. This is your Open Minds News bree for Monday,

September thirteenth, twenty ten. We'll start with a cool story, and this story reminds me a lot of ASU's theoretical physicist Paul Davies ah in July of two thousand and one, the rain turned red in India. Witness is also reported seeing green, yellow, and black rain in the following months. The initial theory was that sand or dust was giving the rain its colored appearance, but a local physicist looked at the rain under a microscope and surprisingly he

found that the water contained cells that looked like bugs. This led him to theorize that the bug like cells originated from a comet that had exploded above the Earth and seated clouds. Having studied these cells for nine years, the physicist says that they are unlike anything found on Earth. It has been determined that the cells begin to reproduce at extreme temperatures nearly two hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit. Many spores on Earth can survive that kind of heat, but none have

been found that are capable of reproducing at that temperature. The cells also display odd fluorescing behavior, as it's called the cells change color when exposed to UV light. This behavior remarkably corresponds with the red emissions from the red rectangle planetary nebula that is twenty three hundred light years away. This similarity doesn't prove extraterrestrial origin, but could suggest it. It's also interesting to note that these cells

contain no DNA. Yeah, really weird and it's an exciting story. One because it reminds me of the song Red Rain, which I like. And two because it's so strange. The Red Rain step has always been very strange. It's been a phenomena for a while. It's kind of a paranormal thing. But you know what, one thing we should probably mention before moving on, and we could discuss this together, and now we're going to say it at the top, but I thought it might be Her first story is Wendell.

So our good buddy Wendell Stevens, because if you've been to the website, you have noticed last week was Wendle week and we still even have some more information, and that was because unfortunately, our good friend, the retired Lieutenant Colonel Wendell Stevens passed away at eighty seven last Tuesday, a week from

tomorrow, at around four point thirty. We've got some conflicting times of like four twenty or four forty four, you know, short period of time, but essentially around four thirty PM in the Tuston area, which is where he is from. And we were fortunate enough, of course to as you know, if you're a subscriber to our magazine or watch the website, have a very close relation ship with him because we have his archives and also he spent a lot of time with us, you know, giving us information, giving

us interviews, and he like hanging out here. He was really excited and happy about a group that's into upology to get his information out, and on our website we've been putting up UFO video pictures and things like that. So unfortunately he has passed away, if you were not aware, and we were just very fortunate to have him. We have a wonderful video on our website that our executive producer Tom Ruffin put together a tribute to Wendall. What sort

of final interview that Wendell gave us here? And he did spend so much time with us here and really felt like just another member of Open Minds, part of the family. Yeah. Is there any particular case or anything you can think of that really struck you with him? You know, every time

I got to sit down with him, it was something new. I always heard another story from Wendell Wendall always had an unlimited supply of stories from his forty seven years of research, so not one single story sticks out in my

mind. It was just the fact that there was always a wealth of knowledge, this unlimited supply of stories from Wendell, and it was like this very knowledged person sharing his wisdom with people, and he just kind of sit around in the circle, staring and waiting to see what he would say next. And I never saw him get upset, never heard him say anything bad about anybody, even though there are a lot of especially the Billy Meyer haters out

there and stuff, who have been really mean to him. And even now that he's passed, unfortunately, there are people who have said some really mean things about him or just judgmental about maybe his past and things. But he was always a very kind, kind person absolutely mm hmm. So we'll definitely miss him. And I wanted to say something sooner rather than later on that. So sorry for interrupting, but now you have me so depressed. I don't think I can go on. You can do it because this is you

know, all right, Well, thank you. I didn't start it off because of that reason, but we both probably said, oh, you're going to do it. No, you're going to do it. So far, well, this story has me. I don't know, I don't know how I feel about this one. I think I'm a little upset about it. But Hollywood has many UFO themed movies coming to the big screen, but civil shows are also coming to television. One of these shows will star Billy Ray,

Cyrus and his son Trace running around investigating conspiracy theories. Like most of these reality type shows, it sounds like this one will mostly focus on debunking and more about pushing Billy Ray's other kid into the spotlight rather than focusing on investigations. And with the title UFO unbelievably freaking obvious, I'm not expecting too much out of this Life Channel show. Yeah, neither of I unfortunately. I mean, they had a great hit with Hannah Montana. I don't know

if they're going to have a hit with this one. And yeah, it sounds like they're just going to go around debunking and unfortunately, you know, well we hope they do. We'll see if they do their research. I'm skeptical that a country seeing or in the center going to do the research necessary. But you know, they both supposedly have an interest in the subject. Whatever that means. You know. Billy ray Ciris was initially scheduled to play

at the Roswell Festival but pulled out at the last minute. But you know, they they are supposed to have an interest in the subject. We'll see what they do with it. Yeah, we'll see, hopefully, hope for the best, but be prepared for what media usually does with this subject.

We'll be prepared for what we're expecting. Yeah. James Oberg, a space analyst for NBC News, recently criticized Leslie Keyne's new book UFO's General's Pilots and Government Officials go on the record saying the book is based on questionable foundation. Contrary to Keene's assertion, Obert calls pilots poor observers. In response to his

comments, Keenes wrote a piece. He wrote a piece on the ms MS MSNBC Too Many Letters Together MSNBC dot Com, pointing out that Oberg seems to have missed the point behind her book, and even suggests that he might not have even read the book that carefully. She admits that ninety five percent of UFO sightings are eventually identified and her book is only concerned with the remaining five

percent. She also points out that Oberg is not really objective because he is a founding fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, a group whose aim is to debunk UFOs and any other unexplained phenomena that challenge our familiar way of thinking. Yeah, very frustrating, because he's referring, you know, to a

lot of cases she not doesn't even have in her book. The other thing, he says pilots are bad observers because they're too busy flying their plane, and he's referring commercial planes where they've got to take evasive action rather than observe something. But the cases in her book are often jet fighters who are observing

these things and flowing too to observe these things. He's also neglecting the fact that some of these pilots were generals or people who were overseeing these incidents, which included radar, so it wasn't just a visual anecdotal type of thing, and included radar and an entire you know, sorty of planes and things.

And then you have Fistimon thing, for example, who was a pilot, but he was on the ground, standing on the ground when he saw the Phoenix lights, and it's his opinion that those that was a huge craft that was beyond our technology, that is extraterrestrial. So his argument is not really focused on what the meat of her book is about. And some of what he did let her to believe. He didn't read that carefully, which he was criticizing and quoting things she said in the book when she didn't say those

things. Many of the things in the books were actually written by the witnesses themselves exactly. They weren't her quotes. They were the witnesses of people like generals, like right in the Belgium flap and in the Iranian situation. Stuff like that. Great books, so go check it out. Absolutely. Here's

some potentially good news. Britain's government announced that it will be reviewing the country's extradition policy in light of recent controversial cases, including the case of hacker Gary McKinnon, a man the US wants to extradize to face charges of hacking military and NASA computers in search of records of UFO activity. A small panel will be appointed to determine whether or not the existing extradition policy with the US is

unbalanced. This offers some new hope for McKinnon, but the panel will not issue their report until the end of next summer, meaning that his already eight

year ordeal doesn't show signs of anytime soon. Mm hmm. Yeah. And what is interesting too is that the president, you know, which you covered a few weeks ago, but that's kind of interesting at the subject, this subject got brought up with Obama and he said he would take appropriate action, which seems like he's going to be lenient, but he knows what that means. That's a very land answer. It's a very safe answer that doesn't say anything. Yeah, not really, but you do bring up a good point.

I mean, it's it's remarkable how much media attention this case has got. Yeah, yep, a lot. And unfortunately, you know, we wrote a story on it, but the meat of what he found was well, there wasn't a whole lot of meat. It is anecdotal type of stuff. So we'll see what happens. The cool thing is is if there is a trial here, it'll get lots of media attention, right, if it's out there, it'll get some that'll probably cross the lake, as they say,

but here we get more. I believe it's pond, pond across the pond. It's bigger than the pond. We'll have to ask our friend Ross Townsworth. Yeah, as I'd mentioned the past couple of weeks, the push for UFO tourism seems to be popular. Right now, here's another destination being

pushed, Area fifty one. Now that might sound odd to some of you, because Area fifty one is a highly guarded, top secret military base after all, So what could there possibly be to do on a tour of a place you can't actually get to. Well, the Area fifty one tour includes a tour of Groom Lake, which is sure to be met by forceful involvement

by the military. The tour also travels to the Extraterrestrial Highway, stops at the Little Alien Restaurant, and goes by many signs that say things like top secret military facility and use of deadly forth authorized, which is sure to make you feel quite welcome. Yeah, being monitored at every minute and having guards ready to confront trespassers, it's no surprise that the Air fifty one tour is being pushed as an extreme tour. And what might you expect to pay for

the pleasure of risking your life. One hundred and eighty dollars will buy you a ticket for an area fifty one tour. What if your kids want to go, children's tickets are available for one hundred and sixty dollars. That's that's

relatively cheap, you know. And if I just feel worried, if you're camping out there and you go to the restroom in the middle of the night, they're probably going to be watching you with night visions, so you're probably watched even in an instant So you know, good for them, I've got nothing to hide. Less than two months after the still unidentified UFO appeared hovering above an airport and hangs out, another UFO has been seen in China.

The bright object was visible for at least three hours and was witnessed by many. Another bright, flickering object appeared above the main object and was visible for about ten minutes. Two news reporters follow the object and we're able to capture photos and video. Right, yeah, I mean China's hotspot. Are you talking about the weather or the UFOs? UFO? Okay, it's hot, No, this is the hot spot. It really seems like it. You know, every week we have many multiple fightings in China, and these are

sightings that are seen by mass groups of people. Well, what I think is interesting too is that it almost seems to be the UK three years ago. Three years ago, UK media started picking up on sightings and really never stopped. It's been huge. And then the files get released out in the UK which causes more media attention, and UFOs are in the media and the

UK constantly. Now China seems to be kind of the same thing. It's this momentum that's taking shape out there and UFOs are more and more in the media in China, which is pretty exciting because in the past, especially with upology, it's been hard to know what's going on out there because at least a couple of papers, Chinese papers that have an English version, they really

didn't cover so much. So it's really interesting to have it. It's great for our news headlines because now we got even more headlines to post internationally. But it's cool to see an interest being taken up out there and hopefully that momentum will continue. Actually, you know, as you probably know too obviously because you're covering these stories, but Australia seems to be picking up on a lot of UFO stories and you see more of their news, including UFO stories.

So we've got more of these countries with its heavy UFO coverage, right, And that's certainly not to say that things are slowing down in the UK at all, Right, they're not all every time in the UK. And the thing with the UK right now, it seems that you know, they have their modern day weather balloon in the Chinese lanterns. There's so many sightings, yet everything is being blamed on Chinese lanterns. Yeah, a little overdoing

it with the Chinese lanterns. Of course they're probably right, a lot of them are, but not everything, you know, not a lot of these things that don't have any similarity to Chinese lanterns. Talking about another country, Russia may create a center for UFO studies if Kissan Iliamsanov has his way, Iliamsanov, who was the president of Russia's Republic of Kalnikmikia. Are they felt

it wrong they didn't put the Ia in that story? Yeah, absolutely right, because I remember it Kalmikia because he's in the news again today, right, and it didn't think it has the Ia Kalmikia. That is what it is supposed to be Kalnikia, so the Republic of Kalmikia, and he's also the president of the World Chess Federation. He would like to build or he'd like Russia to create a center for epology. He has been quite outspoken in

the past about his personal encounter with extraterrestrials. Iliamsanov leaves office next month and this could give him more time to devote to pushing the idea of the UFO Center. Yeah, he was in the news today because he's leaving office now they're trying to kick him out as well. His opponents are trying to take over, which they did this before when he was in the news. They're trying to say, oh, he's into UFOs and aliens, so we need

to kick him out as the president of the Chets Federation. But it didn't work last time, so we'll see if it works this time. And even if it does, it doesn't matter because this guy is independently wealthy anyway. But that was, you know, really cool, and they did that initially when they brought so much attention to that that they wanted to the president to look into him see if he was a security risk because he may have told things to aliens, right, that's fantastic. Yeah, it's so funny,

this whole talk about exopolitics. Yeah, with this guy doing some unauthorized diplomatic relations with extraterrestrials. Secrets to tell. An Australian woman claims that back in nineteen sixty nine, she was cut off by two alien beings in a spaceship shaped like a Ford station wagon. Her daughter told her there was nothing to be afraid of, but couldn't explain why she said that. It just came out of her mouth. The station wagon ship took off rapidly, surrounded by

green, blue, and red flames. This is just one of the experiences told when ABC Morning Show hosts. An ABC Morning Show host invited UFO believers to share their stories. Yeah, well that sounds more like back to the future. I was thinking it sounded like, gotta get back to other things that went on during nineteen sixty nine, But that would be explained by the red and blue and green flames. Trippy, but you know in the San

Louis Valley there's a phenomena at night and during the day. They kind of had it in close encounters where it looks like there's a car driving along the

road and then takes off. Sometimes they during the day they see what looks like a silver ball, you know, something when it's far off and the San Luis Valley's flat, so you could see the road far off and you see the thing where or people have seen, you know, at night, what looks like headlights behind him, but all of a sudden they take off, kind of like close encounters where he waves it on and instead of going around, it goes over. Let's do it one more sighting, Let's do

it. Witnesses in Magdalena, Columbia, observed the UFO and the skylast Wednesday in the afternoon. The UFO was visible for fifteen minutes before disappearing. One of the witnesses managed to capture a photo of the object on his cell phone. It's interesting to note that the Colombian Space Commission contacted the witness who photographed the UFO. That's pretty cool. They want to see what he's got. Hopefully it's something interesting and they'll put it on the internet. That'd be great,

Alejando. That did for the new new Remember to check out these stories and more at Openlinds dot tv, your source for UFO related news. I'm your Open Minds News correspondent Jason McClellan, and you've been briefed. Ah, right, thank you, Jason. Lots of cool stuff, and you might notice Jason and I are wearing some cool new hats, Open Minds Hats here. You'll be able to get those in the afternoon tomorrow at our Openminds dot

TV. You'll be able to purchase these hats because the girl who does them, Maureen, likes to kind of come in, make some coffee, hang out for a while and do her nails. And she just kind of takes it easy until the afternoon, maybe takes a nap, and then after lunch

hopefully, hopefully she'll get around to it. But now actually she's extremely busy doing twelve different jobs at once, like all of us, because we got a lot going on for just a few people here, and lot going on on our website, and just to kind of highlight what Jason already mentioned some of the stuff we have online. But we do have our story from Wendell Stevens, and I think it's probably one of his last stories where he kind

of highlighted his work. So he wrote it as a first person type of thing his work over the years, and that we posted in the first magazine, but we decided that would be a great article to put online for everybody who hasn't seen the magazine yet to be able to read. So that's a great interview that we have on We also put up some clips from some of our last interviews because he was here so often that you know, occasionally he would tell his stories, like Jason talked about, so we would get them

on camera and interview them and get some of these things documented. So, like he mentioned, Tom, our executive video producer, put together a really great YouTube video that you can watch has some of that information and then other information about Windle himself self, so a short bio and things like that.

So we put a lot of window stuff up there to honor him and the great work that he's done, which, as anybody knows who's followed his career, he has done a lot of amazing things and had a lot of amazing experiences. In fact, I interviewed him a while ago on video right here

in this studio. He was sitting next to me on this very table, I think, and that video is also online where you can watch that, and my interview with him, and I really delved into some of his background from years and years ago in the Air Force in the Blue Book period of time, which was really interesting because as an Air Force officer or back then he was well, he was still an officer for much of his career he was investigating UFOs, you know, some of the UFO experiences they had going

all the way back to the forties. So very interesting person with an incredible career, and you'll be able to see all of that online. But it is time for us to take a short little break so we can get our guests on the line and we can begin our interview with Mark s'anntonio. So whole tight. We got a couple of promos will show or we'll let you

listen to, and then we got Mark Open Mind. Production is Profit presents the twenty anniversary of the International UFO Congress coming to its new home with the Ratis and portmant Galley Zorton Casino at cost Still, Arizona. This is the premier anual event for UFO researchers, enthusiasts, and the general public with an

interest in mysterious phenomena. Come listen to expert euthologists, government officials, and respective scientists presenting information relating to the UFOs, extraterrestrials, abductions, cover ups and more. The largest UFO conference in the country, twentieth Anniversary of the International UFO Congress to explay February twenty third to February twenty seven. To the

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Browse thestore today at store dot openmind dot tv to see the latest editions. Welcome back to open lies Radio. Here now former official spokesperson for the Mutual UFO Network, your host of open Mized Radio, Alejandro Rojas. Thank you, guy, whoever you are. I don't even know the name of the guy who did that. He talks about me so nicely. I need to figure out his minname. Maybe we'll just call him Bob. I can come back and say thank you, Bob. It's me Olejandro, and we're

back with open Minds Radio. And I should mention because one people or one of the chatters is talking about the chat there and there are two chats going

on because we are broadcast live on blog Talk. They're the ones who manage our podcast service, so we go through them for the audio side, but on the video side at Openminds dot tv, you can watch us live on video and we use you stream, but we're a YouTube partner and we actually starting last week post these to YouTube the following day as well, which is really cool. And hopefully we will have YouTube live streaming going here soon and

we'll get that up too, So very exciting. I'm very excited because if I am not mistaken, we have mister Mark D'Antonio on the line. Hey, how you do? Hey there, how you doing? Excellent? Great, It's good to have you on the show. Always a lot of fun. And you know, we did some video interviews with you and Laughlin at the UFO Congress and we still haven't gotten those online, and so I figured, well, let's just get you on the show and we can talk about

all that cool stuff we talked about. Oh, I think that's great. It is. Thanks for having me. Yep. So how long have you been with moufon now? Well, it's a complicated question, but only because I took a hiatus in between. I was actually a field investigator with mof on fact, when Walt Andrews was running things out of file folders on his on his office desk right pre internet, you know, pre you know Windows, basically where there was any kind of possibility for applications that would really do

anything meaningful with the data. Uh. And then I took a hiatus for a number of years until a number of experiences that I had prompted me to start looking at it again, which then led to getting back into the photo and video analysis and the thing. I guess what four years now, three and a half, four years now. Yeah, time flies, and you've been able to look into a lot of interesting cases. Oh yeah, yeah,

there's been some very interesting stuff. And you know, I have to admit I was shaking my head at the beginning of the hour when you you said, you know, none of the punker on the thing this is over the phone sound well. And the only reason I say that is one, you're a good sport, and too it's not true. And it's you know, something that I here very so so often, and so it's kind of like something you probably I should probably cut it out because I probably annoy you

because I bug you about it so much, teaser about it. But you're such a great sport about all of this stuff that it's it's it's kind of fun, you know, you know, in all honesty, that's the truth is. You know, we have to be hard on the data because what falls out at the end of the investigation we want to be able to stay

is truly unknown. Otherwise, somebody who's better at us and doing the image analysis or able to handle the photos in a mathematical way with algorithms that we're not using today or tomorrow yet might say, well, they didn't do this. Well, guess what we do. Make sure we do that we do contact with people that have the ability. When you know, it's not all me with the photo and video analysis. There's ablet to talent people out there

that are you know, in the loop to help do this. We this isn't a one person show, as you know, it's a seam effort. And honestly, you know, when you look at the complexity of the cases these days, as you alluded to in some of your other broadcasts, you know, people can use photoshops do amazing things. As we're speaking, I'm

just finishing up an illustration for a magazine that is due tomorrow. Well, I'm using a program that could also be used to generate photo realistic looking UFOs in the sky and put them up on YouTube and start causing all kinds of crazy sensations. But right knowing how to pick those things now from a real photo. See, there's science behind that. It's not just an opinion. There's there's scientific principles. And that's the thing that you know, we can

look at. You know, we can detect when someone's used a clone stand in photoshops across the photo. You know, I can't, I couldn't looking into photo, but the why of them are on. But yeah, and we do have to be careful exactly for the reasons that you're talking about.

And you know, one thing is if we're looking for and I think this is one thing people have to understand if we're looking for the truth then and we're looking for the heart of this matter, sometimes you have to be conservative and rule out even if something is an unknown but it's not you know, it doesn't have enough data to really give you any information. There's not much

you can do with it. And that used to frustrate me when I first was working cases, and I go to Bruce mcabee or Jeff Saniel, who were two people that were kind of your predecessor's, although Bruce mcabee still works in this stuff. And I would show them a video and they'd say, oh, it could be this, it could be that, and kind of

blow it off. And I used to get frustrated until I got more experienced and I thought, well, let's say they were able to determine this one light in this that's kind of cruising across that looks very similar to the satellite is not a satellite. Because it did some stuff off camera that these people saw, they could be telling the truth. But what can you do with that. That's not evidence that you can go take to the scientific community and

they're going to be wowed by it. There's not much you can do with that. Unfortunately, sadly that's true, and there's there's cases where I receive photo and video evidence and all it is it's a shaking spot in the sky with absolutely no point of references reference, absolutely no way to tease any additional data out of it with all the tool values, and then other people have

that's all we have to say. You know, yes, as much as that looks like camera shake, the witnesses insisting that that's not camera shaped. Yet in the data you can see that the camera was zoomed in all the way and he says it was handheld. Right. I'm sorry that those are contradictory statements, you know, when when they face like that. And as much as a as a bad guy that I seem to be, sometimes I have to tell you I have a very thick skin. But I'm also very

open because one thing that most people don't know. Although I didn't make a a I had a discussion about this that one of my talks. I think it was Denver last year, I admitted publicly for the first time that I had an experience that might very well have been a close encounter where I had something placed inside my assignments. You know, my my wife was involved indirectly. There were dogs in the room at the time, and this whole set of events transpired where the next day I woke up to uh my, my

billow and bed was covered with blood. Oh yeah, and and I couldn't breathe out of that sinus for and don't ask me why it took this long for two years, go ahead, no, no, no, okay. When I went to the hospital, the doctor looked up into my nose and said, holy cow. He goes, you got something lined up there? He goes, i'll ve get up there. Yeah, and he took it

out. And when he took it out, I said to him, I made the mistake of saying to him, can he checked to see if it's something, you know, if it's a deserves, if there's a foreign body inside that that Matthew took out. And he said why? And I could have just left it at that, but you know, I told him the story and he kind of looked at me, kind of the way people look at you and you tell them stories like that. And he said, oh no, no, we goes to this. Okay, I'll I have a

checked out. And so I called a couple of weeks later to get the results, and lo and behold, there were no results. In fact, the thing he took out was gone. And wow, yeah it's on record. It's just you know, it's the hospital here in Connecticut, Harvard Hospital, you know. And then in a casual conversation only some months ago, when I was there for another unrelated thing, he told me that he just had relinquished his top secret clearance for the Air Force like, Wow, you're

kidding. I'm not kidding, Alexandra, And I said, you're kidding. What did you do? And you know he told me this in his aunt his office. He said, well, he goes, I was part of the team, the only team, he says, who's ever detonated a nuclear weapon in outer space? Ah? I but sure there's been no absolutely no record ever of a nuclear shootdown in space. And he smiled and said, yeah, I know. No reck Now, now that's total sidetrack from photo

analysis and video analysis. But I'm giving you some background into why when people say I'm a debunker, I kind of just smile and say, well, I appear that way, but trust me, I'm I'm a strong believer, but I also believe in strong data reception. I believe I make sure that data is right. Yeah, I mean making sure the analysis is right. So I feel bad when people will bring me gorgeous lenslers that have the appearance of, you know, humanoid forms or something. Right, But I have

to call it like I see it. Day ninety nine point nine per Auro ninety nine point nine percent is just not gonna be what we're looking for. You've heard me say it a lot of people heard me say, we're looking for that holy grail of yourthology, all right, which is that incontrovertible evidence, and someday we will get it because I believe they are here. I do. Yeah, yeah, you know it's happened to me. I think it happened to every researcher. There's somebody in Denver like who goes around.

It was a lady who gave me some photos. And you know, I'm certain because unfortunately, well for better or worse. You know, I had a broadcast journalism background, so I and film minor so, and I took photography classes though I mean sometimes there weren't people available, and I had to learn to do my best as possible to do some analysis. But you learn what lenz flair looks like. And sometimes people give you a lens flare, and like you said, you feel bad, but you have to tell them.

Unfortunately, you know, there's there's not much I can do with this because it looks like a lens fair and maybe it wasn't. Maybe you saw something extraordinary, but unfortunately it wasn't recorded in this picture, and they get mad at you. And you know, there's a lady that goes around Denver saying that she gave me pictures and I never gave him back, which wasn't the case, and that you know, I debunked the whole thing and blew

her off, even though she has these amazing UFO photos. There's probably two or three people that have done that even with me, And as people know, I'm like that the nicest guy in euphology. You really are, you know, you really are, you know, and you know, instead of what you said about me, I mean, you really are. Well. I wanted to talk more about your kids. What happened to you the night that that happened. Do you do you remember lights or anything weird prior to

going to bed or while you were in ben Oh? Sure, it happened over three nights. As a matter of fact. Wow, on the first night, I woke up to this banging on the roof. Now, you know, I don't know how how much time you have. I'll try to make it. Oh, we've got time, go for it. Okay.

I lived in at the time, I lived in a cape dormered, cape constile house and it was in a neighborhood exactly from where I live right now, hundred and eighty feet, which is kind of odd in itself, but on the second floor, the neighbor's house is maybe forty feet away and isolated. There no trees over the house. I just heard this banging on the roof and I woke up to it, and I, you know, went back to sleep. The second night, I heard it again. It woke

me up again. This time it was a rhythmic set of knocking, which I thought, Oh, someone's at the door, and then they sat up and realized it's coming from the peak of the roof. And I had at the time two greyhound dogs rescued from the track. And how my wife was still sleep in the bed next to me, and these two greyhound dogs were looking up at this knocking. They were looking where I was looking because they

were wondering what's the noiseless too. They were drawn to that. So I got out of the bed and they were sleeping under an open window and looking up. So I leaned over them to peek through on this beautiful August night and look through the screen, kind of like put my head against the screen and look up. And as I did that, as I'm telling the absolute

truth, Will, I don't need to make tough up. I got hit in the face with a bright white flash of light, and I froze, and I just stayed right there, and I looked down and I couldn't see anything. All I could see was like a bright street light, you know, a couple hundred feet away. It's all I could see. And as I got my vision back, I looked down and I noticed that the dogs

weren't there. They were gone. And I found the mail hiding outside in the hallway in the bedroom, and he never slept under that window again, by the way. And the female was hiding in the closet in a pile of laundry that was in the closet in the basket. She was in there and wouldn't come out. I had to drag her by the collar. But what I did was I went over to my life and for all your listeners,

this is art where you can really be mad at me. I showed her and I woke her up out of a solemn sleep, and she goes, what are you doing? And I said, look, just remember that I did that, okay, because I'm feeling really weird right now. And she said, well, what happened? I said, I'll tell you in the morning, I couldn't put my thoughts together. It was all jumbled. Anyway, going back to bed. In the morning, I woke up, got ready. He was going to work. Back then, I wasn't working

in my own business like am now. I was working as a consultant. So I got up here ready to go. He grabs me, planing and scrup on the neck and says, are you gonna tell me why you hit me that night? And I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot all about that. I had totally forgotten. And I explained what happened, and she said to me, you know you have problems with your vision. Are you okay? I know I thought maybe I was having a stroke. I didn't know. You know, you can have them at any age.

Well, anyway, that came and went, and then the third night is when the following happened. I woke up again, except this time I was as awake as I am now, just like before, and I couldn't move, you know, I said, all right, I'm gonna hit the pompic state. My body and motor controls aren't quite connected on that little edge of sleek location. I said, oh, that's cool. It kind of feels me. And then I said, wait a minute, I can't make myself

move. I'm like absolutely frozen. I'm wide awake, and I couldn't move, And so I went to look toward the window because I could see out of the corner of my eye perfectly. I could see the shape of the window in the light. And in the moment when they tried to move my eyes, I couldn't move my eyes. My eyes were frozen fixed forward. And that was that was very frightening. Now I started the panic I felt. I thought, oh my gosh, I had some kind of a Yeah,

I did. I was stroke and it hit me tonight. I mean I really did. I thought that something happened. I was paralyzed, I had a traumatic spine injury or something. I was very conscious. That's when I saw that somebody was in the room. And on the other thing I noticed was I was trying to listen for any sounds and there was dead silence. I mean total silence. I know what someone who's death and has profound hearing loss. No, I know what they feel, I know what they

sense. I know what that absolute silence is. Right, because I couldn't hear myself breathing. I couldn't hear it through bone conduction. I couldn't hear the heartbeat. I didn't no I was breathing. I couldn't feel my body. I just felt totally detached from anything proporeal. It was scary, as as you can imagine. And then this being, which I couldn't really see

very well. I only saw in silhouette, something approached the bed and extended, well, I guess was a hand, and in a hand was a long, thin, white, translucent, lit up kind of wand it was white like a white thing about little off the diameter of a pencil, but imagine a pencil twenty inches long or something. And it was just going back and forth in my vision in front of my face. That's what I remember.

And then bang, it was morning wow, and I was on my belly and I was suddenly awake and realized I can't breathe, and I pushed off the pillow, and that's what I noticed. That I was face down in blood and I ended up looking at this pillow full of bl and I looked at my hands and my hands were actually completely clean, absolutely clean. I thought maybe I did something with my nose in the middle of the night

or whatever. My hands were completely clean where the blood came from. Yes, it was not of my left finess, left nostrils, and I felt when I touched it, I felt like I'd been punched in the face as hard. And you know, you only have my word for this. But Jody, my wife does not move in her sleep. Once she's asleep, she's gone. That's just that's why you had to shove her so hard. That's right, you know, that's right. And any in any case, you know, I thought it was going to pass. I thought whatever it

was would go away. She remembers the blood, I mean because I told her all about it, and it was kind of frightening to her. And then it went away, and I couldn't really breathe on that nostril. I could a little bit, but not much. I thought, maybe I'll give it a couple of weeks, because you know, maybe I injured it somehow. I don't know. Almost didn't even remember the event, okay. And then, like I said, a couple it took me almost two years.

And when I finally went to the doctor, he noticed that there was a mass up there. And when he took out the mass, of course, I can breeze perfectly fine. And he said, it's just an ordinary nasal polyps thing that people get. And I said, but can no seed around fourign objects? And he means He says, you mean like a splinter, like a machinist or something. He goes, yeah, he goes, yeah, that can happen, that can irritate him and cause and sens to inflame

like that. Yeah. I said, can you check that? And this is where we come in with a story. And I spoke of before and he did, and they did, and they sent it to pathology and that's it. We never saw it again and it never got a report back. It's incredible because your story is similar to other stories out there, and I didn't know any of the story, right, this is the whole thing. I mean the time, this is before I got back into MUFAN, I

hadn't been paying attention to any abduction stuff. And I gotta tell you since that episode, which was like fourteen fifteen years ago, my youngest son had an experience where he had to start sleeping with us when he was like seven or eight. He's twelve now. He was seven or eight and he had to sleep with us every night, and I asked. He said, I'm just scared, you know, Okay. He didn't say a word, so finally I pressed him and he started to cry, and I said, Hunter,

what's wrong? And his response was the following quote, which is it's scary and I'll never forget it. He said, quote, I'm afraid the aliens are going to come through my window and take me again. Wow. And you ever told him your story? No, right, which I imagine you wouldn't have, but especially no, I'm a responsible parent, you know, in spite of what you know. You say, yeah, I know,

you know what I mean. People talk, We'll talk, but then then, you know, finally he got over that and he's sleeping fine again. He's forgotten all about his time not reminding him. And by the way, that was well before I got back into move on. Wow, what do you think happened to you? You know, it could all have been an immense dream, it could all have been a strange thing. And others people going, oh, yeah, right, come on, it's obvious what I well, believe me. I also believe in the obvious as well.

I believe that there was something in the room that night. I believe that something got shoved into my sinus, and I believe that when they took it out, whatever it was that they found probably looked odd to them, and they probably contacted someone who could look at it further. That's why it vanished, and it could have finally made it to a circle somewhere where people say, whoa, let's check this out, and you know, just you know,

don't give any reports, tell nothing which happens. You know, there are people who have sent material or other things to PhDs or university. Then they don't get it back. They're told, oh, it was nothing, Well can I get it back? No, we threw it away, or we don't know where it is, you know, because it was nothing, don't worry about it. Yeah, I know that's very true. Now. The last event, just to finish this out, was about three years ago.

We were sleeping and we were both my wife and I both awakened the two in the morning by something dropping in the attic. Now, the house right now is actually three three floors. It's a nice house. It's up over a lake, and you know that third floorway up there is the attic. Now, the attic is sealed off from the rest of the house with a door on the outside that is latched to the wall. From the outside, there's no in unless that door is off, and you can't put it

back on once you go inside. We heard someone walking around with in that attic, and I thought we both thought it was one of the kids because it was little feet and it was turning. You could hear grit under the ball of the foot as it was turning. When they got to the end of the wall and turned, and it was walking like you know, turn, turn, you know, and you could hear it. When we could follow with our eyes the sound across the ceiling from our bedroom below. We

could follow the sound. And I said to her, I go, what are the kids doing up there? And she goes, I don't know, but that's making me. That makes me I rate. So I just jumped out of bed. I did. I jumped out of bed, turned on their lights and they were both in bed, and so that's when I said, they're both here, and she goes, I'm calling the police. And because of the nature of the work, I do you know, I do you know model making work. I do work for the Navy and stuff.

So when I called the police, they were here in like twenty five seconds, and they charging up the driveway with their spotlights named at the house. They get out of the cars and they start walking around the house looking for any sign of any entry into the house. And we're both outside on our in our jammies. Okay, that was a sight, Alejandra. Let me tell you. I don't want to Yeah, trying to look like I know what I'm talking about when I'm standing there in my Superman Yeah, I popped

up builder of pajamas or whatever it was. I don't know. Well, anyway, they found nothing, and we found nothing. And so the next day I was going to go up into that attic. And when I tried to go up into the attic, Hunter came up to me and said, oh, you're gonna go up there again. I go, what do you mean? Were you up there? Yeah? I went up there this morning because I wanted to go get some of the World War two stuff that your

dad brought back. So I went up there and looked and Hunter had been up there, you know, around I don't know, nine ten in the morning when he got up. I didn't go up there yet. This happened earlier at two in the morning. I went up there, and any evidence that there might have been was gone because he was up there moving stuff around and pushing stuff around. He had no idea what had happened up there that

night. So you know, and now, had I known of Chuck Mablin, okay, I would have had Chuck up there in a heartbeat, okay, looking for any kinds of physical trace evidence, you know, his equipment. But at the time, I didn't know. And so finally, you know, when I got the opportunity to start looking into move on again, you know, obviously the history of the history had moved into this position here

and have been going strong. So maybe it's a bunker to some, but boy, oh boy, you know, I hope my experience has show people

that I'm certainly no non believer. That's true, right exactly. So yeah, a lot going on and see, and that's what like the kind of stuff, because I remember, you know, I was able to hear a little bit about this, but not in detail like like you just shared with us now, So that was great, and it's incredible because it's similar to for instance, I've been to an abductee's house the night after they were taken and heard those pounding on the roof and yeah, and banging and stuff like

that, so which is crazy and terrified at the residents of the house. So it's and I know it's it's a similar experience. Or someone in the chat actually that was saying that is just floored because they're saying, holy cow, that's the same experience. I had, very similar, and I've never told anybody. So yeah, Wow, that's outrageous. I didn't really ever

know that. Yeah, that's what's incredible. That's what's incredible about the whole abduction phenomena is that all of these people of various walks of life experiencing very similar things, and like you, they had never heard of other people having these experiences before. Wow. Well, you know, Bud, Bud Hopkins,

it's to me, he goes. You know, if I ever want to come down, you know, to Manhattan and you know, sit down with them and bring my son, he goes, you'd be happy to to talk to us both and see what's going on and try and get out of it. You know. I fund and I became friends back in San Jose actually when I did that first talk back when you were ready to move on m So that was my entry point. Back in because of the drone case,

you know, back then, the California drone. Yeah, we're going to take just a really quick break here, so, you know, so we can refresh ourselves for a second, just a couple of minutes here, and then we'll come back and we'll talk about the drone case and some other cases you've been working on. You're listening to Open Minds Radio with Mark D'Antonio. We'll be back in just a couple of short minutes. Open Minds Magazine, the exciting new publication by Open Minds Production, is in stores now.

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Rojas. All right, thank you Bob for that wonderful rejoin introduction, and we're talking with Marty Antonio, the photo analyst or move on and let's get into some of your professional life. You talked about how you work for the Navy, and you have a company, FX Models, in which people can find at fxmodels dot com some cool stuff and that's kind of how you deal

with imagery. Yeah. You know what's interesting is, you know my business started its life as a physical model making company, meaning that we would make physical reproductions of things. And the Navy angle. You know, people say, you know, oh Navy, look at a government plant all that stuff.

Nothing can be further from the truth, if anything. You know, this is the kind of work that you know, Uh, people like that might shy away from you know what I'm saying because yeah, they don't want to go to a civilian and if pending contractor and say Hey, we've got we you know, we covered the UFO. Can you make a model of

it? Yeah, that's exactly right. And now the kind of work I do, you know, some of what we can talk about, something we can't, I mean, and that's because you know, most of my work, though, was in the submarine arena, so I spend a lot of time under the water surface. You know, so many of my models along under the water surface or in outer space. You know, that's kind of

I don't seem to do anything on Earth. I do anything everything you know in the land, to do anything underwater or out in space, so outer space, innerspace, which I joke around and so you just change the sign on the pressure equation and you're all set. You go from one to the other. But truthfully, the Navy angle, yeah, I do a lot of work for them. I'm a contractor and I work for defense companies as

well, and I work out of my home my studios here. So essentially, if they want to have a model made of let's say, possibly a prototype or something, you are the type they go to. And that would be the nature of why it would be secret, because they don't want people to know about their prototypes or whatever. Yeah, and you know, some

of it is just company proprietary stuff and stuff. And the nice thing that I think is interesting is that, you know, I start I meet with engineers all the time who are part of you know, companies that are these big defense companies or whatever. I sit with the engineering teams and I'm just a model maker. So they don't assume I have any background, you know, that can be relevant to a discussion of engineering. But you know, the truth, the humble truth, is that my degree is astronomy, which

is almost all physics and almost all high end math. So engineering is just another set of equations. Not belittling it in any way because I hold itself, of course, but I can understand, you know, stress equations and and how metal reacts to fatigue. I mean, I can understand all that stuff. I can't spot the equations, nor can I work them, because I've never you don't really seen them. But I understand the concepts and I can hold the conversation with people about it. But and that's the nature of

the skills that I bring to the table for them. So that makes it so that you know, they're comfortable with me. They know that when I come in, I come in with pre knowledge and that's helpful now when it comes to doing UFO related things. Part of that knowledge base was we do three D illustrations as well, we do animations. We show realistic video. It looks like it's being shot in the camera. You know, you account for shadows, particles, and water. I mean, you account for the

things that make the imagery look real. It's photorealism, but with moving pictures, and you see it all the time in every movie that's out and now in fact, audiences are saturated with this computer generated world. And that said, we have to be able to have a skill set as investigators with moufon or with open minds that is above and beyond what animators generally use in and of themselves. We need to have. We need to have that ability to

say this is an animation and here's how I can prove it. You mentioned the California drones earlier drones, but that was a case where when I first saw the imagery and Steve rich muse Northern California Moufon. Steve and I knew each other through submarining, by the way, so you know, yeah, we were friends long before we ever knew anything about Moufon. And the funny thing is Steve said, well, Mark, I saw on your website you

do animation and computer generated stuff. Can you just look at these images for me and tell me what you think, because I was suspicious that they might be computer generated or something like that. How it went and I looked at him and I said, well, Steve, not only are these computer generated, I can prove it and here's how. And I proceeded to I proceeded to show him how programs that generate these kinds of images work. And yes,

okay, right, yeah, yeah, And I showed him. You know that the truth is in the shadows, because these rendering programs that make these photorealistic imagery, these rendering programs really really falter in some ways, not with making objects look real to the general public, but in making the physics right, the stuff that we know as hardcore folks that like to dig into that stuff. Making the physics look right is much harder. And I detected

this particular set of photos was all wrong. Cameras don't work the way this particular set of imagery would show. Now, the camera knowledge comes from my astronomy background, where I spent years in professional observatory, taking pictures with twenty and thirty ton telescopes and then taking pictures. You got tens of thousands of pictures of my own cameras out with my telescopes, and over time I've taken every single bed picture you can take in astronomy, I've taken it. And

you learn to see all the mistakes, You learn how cameras work. It becomes second nature. So when I saw how the drone was being shot, for instance, against a backdrop of a very bright sky and the sun partially in one of the views, well I know how, and I know that the drone would have been nearly a silhouette in that case. And if they adjusted the camera to make the bottom shaded side of the drone look brighter,

then the sky would have been almost pure white. But the sky was blue all the way to the edges of the frame and right there, without even analyzing the image itself for computer generated telltale signs of computer generated the nature, just from that alone, we knew that that was fake, because cameras don't

work that way. In fact, one of the little pieces of this drone ship was extended all the way into the glare of the sun, and it was still just as bright and clean on the bottom and readable as the rest of the drone far away on the other side. They don't work. That's not how cameras work. So well, that's one of the things I thought that the bottom of the because the backdrop was so bright, the bottom of the craft seemed to be too well let which later is what people like you

kind of were staying with the shadows not being correct. Well, more than that, if they just took a time exposure, then the bottom could be you know, or too oh sure, and you assume that, well, maybe they took the time exposure, but the thing was moving. Yeah, okay, so that's that's a little bit of problem there. So assume he got lucky. Okay, we'll assume he got lucky. He is now have

to look at every element of the craft. Even in the thinnest parts of the craft, you still had a clean, nicely illuminated area in in one of the little spines. For those that hasn't seen these drones, they look like the imagine a car tire in the center with spines sticking straight out like like studs, like you know, winter studs sticking out of the the tire. Imagine lots of those spines, and that's kind of what these drones look

like. And then there were spines going straight up into the air. The side ones were thicker and longer and tapered. And what's interesting is the spines that were on the side going out towards the sun. Those did not show any signs of what you would see if a camera that has a meter in it was functioning like it should. It was an artificially created lighting. It was very clear, and the coup de gras was in looking at the deep

shadows. When you look inside the deep shadows, you saw overlapping rings like donuts, thick donuts overlapping each other. That's the coupdi gras. That was because they didn't use enough samples and what they're called digital samples in the program that they used to make this picture. When you generate the shadows. When it generates the shadows, it calculates the light rays and where they go and where they hit. Wherever the light rays hit you get a little donut.

Now, if you use millions of these, then the donuts overlapped so much that they all look smooth and it looks perfect. All right, I think millions. It already uses millions. I'm talking about probably tens and hundreds of millions. If you're willing to wait, in other words, for two to ten hours for the image to generate, you could probably get a very nice

looking image. Okay, But if you only waited about an hour or an hour and a half and you didn't use enough of these samples, then you would end up with a image that had problems in the deep shadows, and they had problems in the deep shadows for every single one of the images. Well, you know, Reuben, our colleague and move on, and wanted

me to ask you a question. Is there software now that even that in some of these kids the drones were pretty sophisticated, but even in these cutt and pace jobs, is there software now that we'll be able to take out some of the artifacts so you can't tell it to the cut the page job.

Ruben, Rubin Ruben that they hear from you, even indirectly, And I like Ruben, he's a really you know, there are programs, and in fact, there are three D systems like like we use here that are able to remove the artifacting in a way that might make it look most real. For instance, the regular way that images are renders are with a renderer that uses something called g I okay global illumination, though those are GI midge

renders look wonderful. But there's other types of renderers. One one type of renderer that we use is a physical renderer. What that is is it's a rendering engine with the piece of software which attaches to our normal computer three D system and when it generates an image, it's it's going to take a very long time. And the reason is because it's actually computing every single ray from light that comes in. Wow, and that means that what you can get

in the end might very well be truly indistinguishable from a real photo. Now there's a number of products like that. We have a couple of them here. You know, they're not cheap, but they're also not that terribly expensive. It's not something that only a company can buy, believe me, into things that individuals who do this for a living would certainly have on hand.

And these physical renders, you know, they increase the challenge. However, because they take so long, it's pretty well guaranteed that it's going to take quite a while. They generate good imagery. For instance, you can link

a whole bunch of computers together. I have about ten here in my office my shop, and you know we could link safe three or four of these together and shorten the amount of time it takes the render because all four can work on creating the image, and that I'll speed up the time quite a bit, and in a very fairly short amount of time you get a really, really nice image. But you still have to go far longer in order to give yourself an image that looks like a true photograph under scrutiny when you

zoom in. You know, you want to look like a digital image, you know, like a tip file or something. And unfortunately, some people are motivated enough because they want that fortune and glory they think they're gonna want to get from taking these things that they're they're motivated enough to wait the time

and to do what it takes. Well, I wanted to ask you, yeah, out of all the pictures you've analyzed, because because you know, I personally know a lot of them that you've looked at that you've been able to discover weren't actually we're hoaxes or otherwise, what are some pictures and or videos that you have seen that makes you scratch your head, that you think,

wow, this is probably real or you can't figure out. I'm glad you asked, because I have a few that I can think of off hand, but one in particular that I want to mention because the others are kind of works in progress right now. But this is one. I saw this when I was in Denver, just a couple of months back. Right when when when we're when were we all there? I can't remember. July, yeah, So just a couple of months ago, made Lake, Yeah. And when I did the talk out there, I met with a woman who

came all the way. She came an hour and a half out to talk to me. She wasn't part of the conference, he was just coming because she didn't know where to turn. And she knew that there was gonna be some people that had some experience with photos or whatever. So I offered to talk to her. And when I sat with her, she showed me a picture on her phone. She said, I know, it just looks like this strange top hat looking thing, and it looked like a silver top hat

for all the world. It wasn't a clear photo. It was at some distance but it was at the beach and it was looking out over the water. My first thought was, oh, okay, if balloon, maybe a kite, you know, well, I can analyze, look for string, see if it's a tethered object. Blah blah blah. But then she gave me her testimony of what she saw and her response. She said, I was at the beach and I was standing next to a group of people who

unfortunately didn't speak any English. She goes, but what happened was this object, this silver object, was mesmerizing everyone at the beach and they were all looking at it, she said, And it would come toward the beach, she said, and when it did, I have to tell you, it was very frightening. And then it would go away from the beach, all

right. And then she said, it finally disappeared over the horizon. And when it did that, all the people that didn't speak English next to me started clapping, going wow, yeah, like it was some kind of show. And you know, then they went about their business, you know, talking about it. I guess, yeah, now that's that case. For instance, is a perfect example of something you were talking about before, where the photo doesn't do justice to the event. And you know, as move

Funds chief photo and video analysts, I am keenly aware of that. So the first thing I do i get a picture is I look at the picture. I don't read the case. I want the picture to stand on its own merits. I don't want influence from the case. I never read the case until I look at the picture and say, okay, well, I clearly see this as Jupiter, because here's the stars, and here's exactly where Jupiter is at the one hundred percent alignment with Jupiter. Therefore, I'm ninety

nine point nine percent sure this is just Jupiter. Uh. And then if you read the case and the witness says, well it was dancing all around the sky, then that's not what they saw, right, Because what I'm seeing is Jupiter. They saw something else. I mean, that's the optimist excite of how I look at it. Right, So what I saw was Jupiter. What you photographed was not what you saw because what I'm looking at was nothing that dances around the sky. It's Jupiter. Seemless is the moves

one People don't know. They take some pictures hoping they got something, and then they look at the pictures and to an untrained eye. They they think, well, that kind of looks like what we saw, or maybe that's what we saw. And if they saw a light in the sky, of course, a bright light in the sky is going to be, you know, similar to what they saw, even if it's not the exact thing. You're absolutely right. And it's hard to photograph a light in the sky.

It's nearly IMPOSSI spy. I was doing it this weekend and you know things, yeah, fuzzy and just playing with my camera and it's very difficult to do. Oh yeah. And you know, as an example, I got another case which I thought was interesting and this goes back to a known but I got to share this with it because it really was fun. It is, for all the world, a white disc shaped craft in the distance over the trees with lights on it and stuff. And I was like, wow,

and that is in the air. It was in the air, and I'm looking at it and I'm going that's incredible. Wow, maybe this is it. Let's get the details. So I started zooming in on it and I saw some modeling on the face of it. So I did what's called the convolution matrix. So what that is for the listeners, there's something that may know this. A convolution matrix is a mathematical algorithm you apply to a picture, and depending on how you set up this matrix mathematically, it can

do special things to the picture. It can edges on one side look sharper than edges on another. It can make all the edges look sharper. It can soften things. It can you know, enhance certain areas and that kind of thing. And if you know how to handle the convolution matrix, then you can do that. It didn't take a lot to learn. I mean, you just read about it and boom, you know what you're doing.

You know, it takes some time to experiment, but I've had a few years playing with it, so I kind of have a you know, I kind of set a few up that I have set up standard in my head. And as I looked at this object, I started to see something geometric in the center. And I started looking at it and I went, oh, I can see oh I think I see letters actually, and I started to look through it. I'm like, oh, man, is that those

characters? Or I couldn't tell what kind of letters they were. Finally, I saturated the image with color and I sat back and squinted at it, and I said, Saniel, it's the Saniel blimp. Oh no, how funny. Oh yeah yeah. It was like about about thirty minutes of time and I was like, oh, incredible. But you know, to look at it, you'd never think that was a blimp because you didn't see the

fins, you didn't see the gondola. You saw lights at each ens, and you saw red and green lights, which always indicate to me that it's possible you should investigate the aircraft avenue because that's important to do. That's bed and green lights. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, just not too long ago, the met Life limp was here and it was way

off in the distance, in between a couple of hills. I saw something moving huge, moving slowly between these few hills, and I was like, what the And you know, I got my binoculars in which I always carry in my car now and I was able to see it. It's just a blimp, but they can look very impressive. They're large, they move slow, and sometimes the gondolas are difficult to see against a huge blimp balloon area.

That's right, that's funny, that's a that's a cool case, how did you taken a look at the Phoenix Lights video, the famous video. Oh yeah, I've seen there was actually two events right in the Phoenix light one. One was a flare event and then one was the true one knownable.

Well, that's what I want to ask you about if you've seen video from the ten o'clock And the reason I ask, and I've been really on this kick lately, is I just moved south of the Phoenix area, about twenty five miles south of South Mountain, and I drive then every day, you know, down the highway in the middle of the desert, because that's all reservation and it's flat, and I just can't not understand very Goldweather is another thirty forty miles behind me. So yeah, I don't understand how the

playes could have been seen And is it possible maybe I'm wrong, they could have been seen, you know, like ninety miles away or eighty miles away. Oh well, I can tell you this. Airplane landing lights are visible from eighty miles away and when they turn them on, they usually turn them on and proxically seventy to seventy five miles out. You know, some of

the folks who fly and the audience can clarify that. But the commercial just typically, you know, anywhere from seventy to eighty miles an hour out, those landing lights could come on and you can see them very very clearly, and so it is possible that you might be able to see those that distance. Now, that's just from having seen aircraft at long distance and also having

read accounts of aircraft at long distance. Yeah, you can see the afterburners of gets from a very long distance, especially if you're looking right up the tailpipe, you know, and those actually very strange because I don't want to do at a close distance. Yeah, I know, don't do that a few feet away people, No, no way. Yeah, those of you who lived near a real well, great, thanks Mark, you just debunked another case for me. Oh no, no, I'm just saying that the

flares can't be visible. I'm not saying that's what was seen. Yeah, it's just interesting because it just really floors me. You know, once I put two and two together driving home one day at night, and I've seen flares on those exercises in Colorado Springs and they were, you know, just a couple of miles away, and it looked similar to what the Phoenix lis was. But when yeah, I was thinking, wow, what the heck,

you know, how could they have it's so bright so far? I saw a parachute flares drop at one point, and I received video of what was also reported to be a similar Phoenix Lights type episode and it was actually I think in England, And what I noticed when I did some video processing, one of the things I noticed was that these lights were giving off at a reddish glow around them. Well there's reddish glow was also traveling and the

reddish glow was moving upwards. It was smoke and they were flickering because when you zoomed in on them, you could actually see that there was a random fiaker sort of a flame source for them. So that British case, I was able to show that those were you know, those were actually flares. Now. The other thing was, at one point another giveaway was that the first one to light up was the first one to stop a right and and you saw it, you saw it, uh, you know, fade out,

and then it faded out. As it began to fade out, you know, you could see the smoke you know, damn around it and all that and then the other ones beyond it and around us did the same thing, uh, but in order. So that was the British case. Now with the Phoenix lights case, I know, I know that the lights were

fading at one point. I know the flare event acted to me like a flare event, So that particularly one, but there was That wasn't the only case, right the right that was at ten o'clock, so the later in the day. But there were lots of sightings. And now that I've lived here, I hear for more people all the time out here who saw that thing. And h we're going to have Francis Barwood speak at the Congress about she's the city council woman about all the reports she took. But there are

tons and tons of people out here who saw that stuff. Yeah, yeah, And I know that that's the problem with the Phoenix cases because there was again, if I recall, there was an actual flare drop event, and it's also I think that came after the actual event. I believe. Again people will correct me who are no, you're right, You're right, But we are out of time. So thank you Mark for being on the show.

I think we got through a lot of really cool stuff and if this was people's introduction to you, then certainly I would think, Wow, No, this guy is mister he's an abductee. For goodness. Thanks, you know they're going to run the other way. Yeah, this guy's crazy. No. Thanks for being on the show. We'll have you on again. Wonderful to have you in this build to be able to look at some of this stuff. So keep up the incredible work, buddy. Thanks Alejandro,

thank you, and Open Minds, thanks so Mark. Actually you can see some of hits online speak at the Congress and at MOFON, so those videos are online to see. Next week, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna have Leslie Keene. She wrote the book UFO's General's Pilots and Government Officials. If you haven't heard about this book, turn on your television because she's all over

the news. She's all over the newspapers. People are talking about this book because she's got a lot of very high level people that have written some papers about UFO experiences, including Fi Simonston who was a governor during the Phoenix Line, to the governor of Arizona. So a lot of really cool stuff. Check it out on next week's show, seven pm. And we'll be just back from the ex Fest in California. That's where I'm going to be speaking

this weekend, so that's going to be a lot of fun too. See or that on Openminds dot TV, open Mindset TV, get your hat, Talk to you later. Bye. The plot Hey,