Mack Maloney, UFOs in Wartime

Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your host, Alejandro Roja. Hello everybody, it's Alejandro. Thank you, mister Dean. I love to hear mister Roberteen introduce us. Every week we have another great show. You know, one thing, it's been fun lately, I guess it's always fun. And it's something that struck me when I got

into UFO research. All of the really cool people that you get to meet. I think, you know, in this crowd, you know, there's some people that maybe you feel uncomfortable to be around, to put it nicely, when you go to these groups and stuff like that. But then there's also some really cool like people, I mean, just open minded, extremely intelligent people. And our guest is one of these. It's Mac Maloney. He wrote the book UFOs and Wartime, and he is just a really great

guy. He does. He's an author, and he writes books that are kind of like Tom Clancy and that's kind of how he puts it there, the military fiction thrillers. I used to read a lot of Tom Kennincy when I was younger, actually, and so those are the kind of books that he writes. But he decided, because he's always been into UFOs, to write a UFO nonfiction book. And of course, since he's a military guy, he focused on wartime, mostly focusing on like the last century, but

he has cases that go way back. So we're going to talk to him a lot about UFOs, not just the food fighters in World War Two, but we're also talking Korea, Vietnam, Irac, Iraq. I was gonna say, I ran and said, I said Iraq, and then it came out kind of Minnesota, ire Am, but it is Iraq, actually, I was trying to say, because he didn't get into later on in Iraq and stuff. But we'll talk all about that. So it's a great show, great interview, and I'm happy to have you all with us today.

Another thing I want to mention and you can't forget about is the UFO Congress because that is coming up and it's gonna be another great time. We have like what we have out of some of the bigger name like regular guys in the field, but it's cool to have them all together. Colin Andrews We're gonna have Stephen Greer, We'll have Whitley Strieber. I mean, all of these guys in one place, so that's really cool. Also, some of the newer people you know that have come on to the least lately been making

a big splash. We have Lee Spiegel who writes for the Huffington Post. He's been writing these great stories. We have Bryce Zabel who's been on the show a few times. He's done a lot of movies and he can talk about Hollywood and stuff like that. We have Ben Hansen from Factor Fate, which is a lot of fun. He is a super cool guy. We had him on the show and we've talked to him here and there. He's become one of our buddies. So excited about that. Some old friends of

Von Smith this is a cool one. Robert Panoti who runs kind of the mouf on of Italy out there, and he has actually worked with the government and out there in Italy, so he's had a lot more inroads with the government than we've been able to have out here in the United States. Isn't that typical. Unfortunately, we're gonna have Travis Walton again, but he's gonna be with John Goulay. And this is exciting because this is one of the other witnesses who was in the truck who saw the UFO, who took off

because they were freaked out and came back. And he's a guy who has not talked in public like this before, so it's going to be the first time you'll be able to see this witness. So you'll be able, you know, if you're a skeptic of the case, you can see how these guys match up and how their stories match up. We'll have Bruce mcabee of course, famous scientist, UFO researcher Randall Nickerson, which is a lot of

fun. One of our first issues we had a story on this guy because he's doing a documentary on the famous Zimbabwe UFO case, where back when these kids saw Ufo and an alien and there was a bunch of kids in Zimbabwe and now they're older, so he's doing a documentary. They're like in their twenties or something not too long ago. Rosemary Angie a paranormal specialist. This guy Antonio NAIs, he's amazing. You've had heard him before. David Surta,

we're gonna have talking about twenty twelve. Jime Mussan is going to talk about twenty twelve in Mexico cases. Everybody loves him. He wasn't there last year. A lot of people missed him, so he'll be back. Peter Robbins on abduction. I mean, just really cool stuff. So go to UFO Congress dot com to register. You gotta make it to this conference. I mean you probably heard from people who went last year. They had a lot of fun. And the location, like I've told you over and over

again, is just beautiful. This place is awesome, So check that out. So that's what's going on UFO Congress, so check it out. The other thing that's going on every day on Openminds dot Tv is UFO News. And the guy in the middle of the UFO news is this cool cat named Jason McClellan. And guess what we have him here with us today. Jason, would you like to tell the dudes about some UFO news. Yes, Sir Green, Alejandro and the Hello everyone, this is your Open Minds UFO

News brief for Monday, December twelfth, twenty eleven. Put its recorded by NASA's Stereo spacecraft on December first, shows Mercury being hit by a wave of electrical charge material emitted from the Sun known as a coronal mass ejection ORME. And if you haven't seen the video, it's as cool as it sounds. But what has people talking about the video is a strange object near Mercury that is revealed by the CME blast. So believe the CME blast revealed a cloaked

UFO near the planet. But to get an official answer, MSNBC contacted scientists in the Solar Physics Branch at the United States Naval Research Laboratory the NRL, who are responsible for analyzing data from the telescope camera that shot the December first footage. MSNBC reports that according to Russ Howard, head scientist of the NRL group and Nathan Rich, lead ground systems engineer, quote, it is simply

an artifact leftover from the way raw H one telescope data gets processed. The image processing is explained more in detail by MSNBC, and we have that detail Onopenminds dot tv in the news story we have about this so you can read more about the details involved in him. But Nathan Rich basically split that quote. When this averaging process is done between the previous day and the current day

there is a feature like a planet. This introduces dark negative artifacts in the background where a planet was the previous day, which then shows up as bright areas in the enhanced image. According to Gizmoto, this particular video shows a twenty four hour period captured on December first, and consists of thirty six frames in total. The strange object was also recorded by STEREO's twin satellite HI two.

NASA and other scientists have used ghost images and image glitches to explain mysterious objects in space videos before, and that could certainly be the case with this video. But there, you know, it's interesting. It's twenty four hours, so the planet was probably there the previous day, as they stated, So it captures two images. But this this other image it was captured when

this blast goes by. It seems to be smaller, seems to have a sort of a defined shape, and some people and I kind of agree, argue that it sort of looks like a klingon bird of prey. Oh from Star Trek. Hmm, kind of cool, so they think it's a cloaked klingon bird of prey. I couldn't make much out personally, so I don't know, there's not a whole lot. You know, your mind going wild and you start seeing what you want to see. Oh, I see it,

I see it. Yeah, I can see it because I read somebody else say that they saw it. So but it doesn't look like a planet, but it certainly could be. You know, it's just if it's what they say it is. You know, it's just remnants of where a planet was. So light remains from a planet. It's not probably going to hold that fear shape. I can't help it. You're the one who brought up the Klingons. Yes, I thought that Klingons were on your ainus. I couldn't help it. Okay, I'll give you that. That was fun.

Well, I think that comes from the Simpsons. Actually, I think it does. But while we're on the topic of Hollywood, let's talk about an article you wrote this Alejandro. Steven Spielberg recently revealed that his popular family friendly alien film Et the Extraterrestrial was originally going to be an alien attack movie, telling the alleged horrific experience of a family in rural Kentucky supposedly harassed by aliens.

Spielberg told Entertainment Weekly quote It was going to be called night Skies, based on a piece of UFO mythology where a farm family reported little spindley gray aliens attacking their farm, even writing cows in the farmyard. This farm family basically huddled together for survival. It's the story that's well known in the world

of mythology, and we based our script on that story. Spielberg says that the script was changed because he was able to talk Harrison Ford's girlfriend at the time, Melissa Matheson, into rewriting the screenplay, and that resulted in the development of the lovable character et we all know today the description of the not so lovable creatures that allegedly attack the family in Kentucky resemble that of the mischievous

little green man in the movie Gremlins, a movie also produced by Steven Spielberg. It's all one hunter, tell us a little more about this case in Kentucky. Yeah, I wish I would have known when I wrote the piece on Spielberg for our magazine, because I didn't know this right, and I should have thought of it, because when you take the pictures that the witnesses had, or actually the air force drew from the witness accounts and you put

it next to a gremlin, they're exactly the same. And on Open Minds at TV and also on ufodailynews dot com we posted it with the picture so you can see that. And it's really the only time that I know that I've seen another creature look like that. And you're right, it's just like gremlin's with the crazy ears going on, the big ears, the little waist, the tiny little waist, but the bigger shoulders and the long arms with the claws. Yeah, so they look exactly alike. And I never put

the two together. And this was the case. It is a very famous case amongst uphologists because Little Green Men. We've talked about this before because I wrote a story a few months ago. Little Green Men comes from this case in Hopkinsville. But it's interesting, Yeah, that's Spilberg. Spilberg didn't write this story for the Gremlins. It's something that he got from someone else apparently. But obviously when they went to character design, he was heavily influenced by

that. And obviously, as he says, he was influenced by that on et plus the story. You know, even if they have an author bring him a story, they morph's the story and the story. You know, these guys are mischievous little goofballs, which is exactly the Kentucky story. They didn't hurt anybody, well, they were more dangerous in gremlins. They didn't

hurt anybody in the story in Kentucky in nineteen fifty five. But they ran around and jumped around, and they were playing with these guys and being real crazy, touching, you know, one guy's hair. So it's an interesting story. It's fairly credible. It's one of the only, if not the only Blue Book case that has actual aliens extraterrest grills in it, so it was important historically. And here again it's evidence that Spilberg another demonstration of how

into this staff he really is. So pretty cool, very cool. In other news, and Open Minds affiliate was recently told a story about a woman who witnessed a UFO crash in nineteen forty seven. The investigator followed up on the story by tracking down and interviewing the witness, but after the interview, it was determined that the UFO encounter involved a landing rather than a crash. Josie Estrada, now seventy eight years old, lives in San Antonio, New

Mexico. Her UFO encounter occurred in at nineteen forty seven and when she was fourteen years old. It was a hot July afternoon and Estrada had been out hurting goats on the mesa. At approximately two pm, she saw something very bright and shiny out of the corner of her eye. When she turned toward the object, she saw the sun reflecting off something disc shaped. She described

the object as being so shiny that it resembled a mirror. Estrada said the ufo descended straight down from the sky until at land, approximately one quarter mile away from her position. To her, the object appeared to be the size of a house, or perhaps slightly a little smaller. She was fascinated and curious, so she excitedly rode her horse at a gallop toward the object. When she approached the bright object, it violently ascended, then shot straight up

and disappeared. Other UFOs, of course, were reported to New Mexico in nineteen forty seven, including the famous Roswell crashes. Yeah. Interesting, interesting, Yeah, And this is someone who just emailed you or something. This is somebody that there were some people doing an investigation in New Mexico, and they heard a story about this woman, so and that's where they heard that

it was a UFO crash that had happened. So to find out more information, they tracked this woman down and actually went and spoke with her about about her encounter the actual UFO landing and again nineteen forty seven. Yeah, interesting, kind of cool. Well, this was a big story today. Hundreds of pro democracy protesters in Moscow reportedly witnessed a UFO in the sky above them

on Saturday. According to the Telegraph, the silent object was clearly not a helicopter and was described as having pulsating colored lights and had quote five extended tendrils or pylons emanating from the body of the vehicle. The crowd of people protesting against recent election results allegedly climbed trees to better observe the UFO that seem to be observing the twenty five thousand protesters. And there's a video of this,

we have it on Open Minds ONTV. And to me, I have to say, it does look like some sort of either police drone which are commonly used now. A lot of police departments around the world use these things. And again as we've talked about a lot, there are a lot of remote controlled toys now that people are using that light up and things, so it could be either one of those. It doesn't look very mysterious. It looks more like one of those things because we see those a lot. Yeah,

it's kind of cool. I don't think. The reason I don't think it's a toy is because it would be kind of dumb. I mean, this crowd is huge, thousands of twenty five thousand people up, so to be flying a toy over twenty five a mob of twenty five thousand people, I mean, these are angry people who are mad at Putin because they think he

cheated on the elections. So I don't think, but it would make total sense that, you know, in order to get a scope of how big this crowd is, the police would send a drone over and you know on your story it's funny. Separately, Jason wrote a story and so did I for you up to the Daily News. But we had similar thoughts because we put up pictures of drones and in one of the drones I had, it has a circle very similar to what they see. The difference is it doesn't

have a long Fuseladge. I think the video is really cool though, even if it's a drone, you know, that stuff's kind of cool too to see one flying around up there because it's got blinking lights, it's hovering and flying around up there, and it looks more sophisticated than just your standard remote control, especially in Russia where they really aren't like out here. You know,

they still struggle economically and stuff. They have been for a while where we've got all kinds of wonderful toys, but we still complain right everything, And you know, this object does appear to be you know, over the crowd observing, and that's precisely what police use these drones for. Yeah, so I think that would be the only way I can just think, as a police officer, how would you understand where all the people are in the scope of this crowd without something like that, So, you know, it'd

be vital for them, and now they have the technology. So I tried to look up drones in Russia and I couldn't find anything. Just what we found. The UK has a lot the smaller ones like the pictures we posted, but the ones in America by the American police, those are more like elaborate remote control helicopters, but they look a lot more elaborate and expensive, yeah, which is like a remote control helicopters. And they're also smaller scale

of like the military drones that are like small exactly. I mean they're cool, they're big and elaborate, and yeah, they're really cool. Yep. Well, in other news, a I have statistic here, this is kind of fun. A third of New Zealanders believe aliens have visited Earth. A third. Yeah, not just UFOs. They don't just believe in UFOs. They believe aliens have visited Earth. Perhaps even more surprising, at least to me, is that the number of believers is greater for actually greatest among the

thirty to forty four year olds, at thirty six percent. Wow, only twenty six percent of those aged sixty and older believe we've been visited. People are most intelligent between those years too, thirty three and what was a forty years old thirty and forty four? Yeah, that's your your peak of intelligence.

You're only saying that because you fall into that category. Well, that's how I know from experience, and so I will talk to you when you're sixty and I think you will change your view to a sixty and older kid. Probably either that or I'll be like, what, what's your name? I think that's right, well, Alejandro. That is all for the news today. Remember you can check out all of these stories and so many more

at openminds dot tv, your source for UFO related news. And if you have a comment about any of these stories, or you'd like to share your own story, feel free to email me at Jason at openminds dot tv. You can contact me on Facebook Jason Openminds, and I'm also on Twitter at a centric That's ace C E N t R I C. That is it for the news. I am Jas McClellan, your Opening Mind's news correspondent, and you've just been briefed. All right, and thanks j Lo Jlo.

That's kind of called Jason. That is not cool. I'm offended, Jlo is Jennifer Lopez. That's already been taken. Yeah, but you're sure here, Jason, Jlo. We'll talk later, all right, Thank you, Jason. As usual, that was a great news brief. Late breaking sad, late breaking news. Whitley Streeberd just now texts that Roger Lear is in the hospital and having difficulty breathing, and he says to please pray for him, So we all ask you the same. So Roger Lear, you know,

as a good friend of ours. We see him at all the conferences and talk with him and hang out, and yeah, he's a good friend of ours. He's been here quite a bit, and he's a really neat guy. And of course, if you're unaware, this is the guy who is the foot surgeon who has extracted or arranged to have extracted alien implants, and so he's kind of the forerunner in that field, and so you might

I'm sure you've heard his interviews or seen him. So unfortunately he's in the hospital now right now, so everybody thinks some good thoughts for him, so hopefully he'll get out soon. Also, the disclosure petition, don't forget the disclosure petition. You can read more about that at disclosurepetition dot com. And this is of course the petition that has been put forward by Bryce Zabel and

Richard Dolan. And really, I guess the whole point is a lot of people, of course, are skeptical that really Washington's going to say anything different than they've already said with the last petition. However, this one is more oriented to UFOs in general or UAPs, and actually I'm going to talk about that with Mac what he thinks of the UFO versus UAP thing. UAP is is unidentified a phenomena, and some people feel that that sounds more professional than

the UFO because UFO has a lot of baggage. My argument is, if you tell someone about uips, what are they going to say? What are you talking about? And you're gonna have to say UFOs, and so, you know, you don't really win that way. I think we have to change, and we are changing what people think about UFOs in general. I don't think everybody these days thinks about UFOs is just totally being silly. I think that that paradigm is changing, which is wonderful, and even though that's

harder work, I think that's great. But anyway, that's what the disclosure petition that Bryce and Richard is focused on. So you can go to disclosurepetition dot com and read some information about it and go there and sign it. He's already got well over one thousand. I think we're pushing two thousand, maybe even more. We need twenty five thousand by December thirtieth, So go

get your family and your friends and sign this thing. Also, Li Spiegel of the Huffington Post has written about it lately and he actually got a lot of great quotes from people. And you can see that if you keep up to speed on all of our facebooks and twitters that we have what we got. We've got Open Minds TV on Twitter. We've got UFO Daily News on Twitter. On Facebook, we have UFO Think Tank, we have UFO Daily News. We have Alejandro Rojas, we have Open Minds Marine and Open Minds

Jason, Open Minds Magazine. We're all over the place. So we post all of this stuff and we've had some updates on all of these stories. And of course we follow Lespiegel's stories and he's going to be speaking at our

conference. And what's great about Lispiegel is he writes some stories where he does lots of interviews, gets lots of really good quotes, and he's pretty much the only real national news There are some local newswriters who do a great job, Steve Hammond's Billy Cox, but he's the only one that's really for a nationally syndicated news that is writing regularly on UFOs, and of course I've got my blog up there, thanks Lee. But I know that we also have

some upcoming stories that will be on the Huffington Post. I'm pretty sure on the same subject, So keep an eye there. But go ahead and sign that petition if you haven't yet. If all of you listeners went and signed that, we would have enough and we would get another comment, and hopefully one that's more oriented around the UFO phenomena and possibly at least investigating it as opposed to them focusing on whether or not we've talked to extra trust drills a

lot or thus far, and we'll talk more about that. I ask every guest you know pretty much what they think about the extratrustural hypothesis, meaning, just because we know there's a UFO phenomena, does that necessarily mean it's extraterrestrial in nature. I'm kind of like Jim mars he said, it's probably all about that and more or it's a very complicated matter. I fit in that arena, but some don't. Some feel that, you know, maybe that's

too assumptive. Some feel that maybe we need to focus on the fact that there's more to this than just that. So there are a lot of interesting and intelligence thoughts when it comes to this. Also, you may have heard, and I might as well just say, and just so I could get it on the record that Michael Horne, who we've had on the show before, talking about Billy Meyer. You know, one of the reasons I wanted

to get him on the show. It's because, sure, we have had some doubts about the Billy Myer case, myself and some of the other people who have written pieces here at Open Minds, and he like he says, we have the Wendell Stevens archives, And you know, when I went into this, I thought, Wow, this is going to be great because I wanted to meet and you know, well, you guys listen to my show.

I wanted to meet for the Billy Myers saying, to come out and say, hey, we found some great stuff in the archives to really substantiate the whole Billy Meyer story. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Instead, just the opposite happened, and we found more that was kind of dubious and that hadn't made us doubt. I mean, I wanted to believe the Billy Myers thing, and I'm just skeptical because if you listen to the show, so

many of the kind of convoluted things that don't make sense. Regarding this, well, Michael Horn's a little upset with me because I'm kind of not jumping on the vandwagon. But I'll promise you and Michael Horn and everybody else, if Michael Horn really comes up with some great evidence that demonstrates that something is happening, I will more than happy to be to write about it and to

talk to you guys about it. But thus far that hasn't happened. All the emails I get from Michael Horn fit in the same argument I had when he was on the show, which is that it's a link to a site that says Billy Meyer said this, and then this is what really happened, and so he predicted this. But that's not enough. I could do that

all day. I can say, Jason predicted that, you know, a UFO is gonna fly over Russians and put off and all of this are putting in all of this stuff, and then but if I don't have any proof to document that he did that, then we don't go anywhere. So and I just don't feel that he if he has it, he hasn't demonstrated that well enough, and I wish him all the best. I hope he can demonstrate it, because that would be incredible, that'd be phenomenal. So that's

just so you all know. Of course, if I found some extraordinary data, extraordinary data that really debunks the whole thing, I'll also share that, because you know, I want to give you guys the truth and what's going on so you can make up your own minds. But enough said about that, and I probably won't go there for quite some time unless some great stuff comes out. Let's go ahead and get to our interview though, with Mac Maloney, the author of UFOs in Wartime. He's a great guy. I'm

excited to talk to him. I am happy, and I know I say this every time, but because it's true and it's what I'm really feeling, I'm really excited to talk to Matt Maloney today, the author of UFOs in Wartime. Mac are you there? Yes, I am. How are you? I'm doing pretty good tonight? How are you doing good? Not too

bad? So it's great you've been getting some publicity. I was all excited, you know, I always get I've had some authors recently and one of them hasn't been around as much, and so it's always fun to kind of have someone on the show and then it's their first time out there and people get to know them. And I kind of was hoping that would be the case. But that which is no big deal, because it's wonderful to see you were on Coast to Coast and you've been doing some interviews. That's awesome.

Yeah, the publisher was able to connect with Coast to Coast and that just kind of came out of the blue. I had to get up at one o'clock in the morning to do it from quo am to five am. But other than that, you know, it was it was a great opportunity. I think every interview I do is a is an opportunity just to talk about the book in UFOs in general. Yeah, well, it's great you got Coast Kaza. You know that always drives a lot of hits, So

that's good. Hopefully got book sales, I hope so. So. I think you were telling me earlier that this is your first non fiction and it's on the UFOs right. I'm primarily a fiction writer. I've been writing full time military fiction for about twenty years. Or so. We've got about thirty thirty five books stuff, counting a few books ago. But I basically have been doing like Tom Clancy stuff and I did a post nine to eleven series

called super Hawks. I started back in the eighties with a series called Wingman. He was about it was about a Zen fighter pilot, and a few other series along the way, and a couple of them touched on the UFO puzzle, let's say, but didn't really go that deep into them. So when I had this opportunity to write this book, nonfiction book, I jumped at the chance because I've always been interested in UFOs. It was an opportunity for me to bring the kind of military side of the stuff I do to

to UFOs. So, you know, hopefully it came out okay, yeah, yeah, that's great. Was this book it all a bit of a coming out for you. I mean, where there's some of your readers that were shocked or surprised by you writing a nonfiction on UFOs. Well, I

don't think that they were shocked. I think maybe surprised, but anyone who has, you know, read my fiction stuff, I don't think they should be surprised about anything because it's you know, it's it's kind of Tom Clancy stuff, but on the it's a little to left field of Tom Clancy's stuff. And you know, like I said, we've dealt with UFOs before, We've dealt with like, you know, conspiracy theories and things along that line. So I don't think it really surprised many of my is that I would

go to do a nonfiction book. Everyone I've heard from said that, you know, they're into it. So that's good, that's very good. That's and I don't know if you feel this way, but it certainly seems, you know, oftentimes because of the ridicule factor that comes along with UFOs,

sometimes people are are don't like to talk about their UFO beliefs. And I think the polls show even though in the public people aren't talking about it as much, the poll showed that a lot of people are believe in the phenomena or at least think that it's interesting and they'd like to know more. That there are a lot of people out there that that are willing to talk about

it. Well, you know, in the in the publishing world, it's let me say it's it's considered not fringe, but you know, you you, you do kind of have to be prepared for people looking sideways at you,

if you know what I mean when you bring it up. But on the other hand, in the publishing world, they know that, as you say, there's a lot of people interested in it, there's a lot of people who are interested in it. Might not voice their opinions, I know, but you know from firsthand experience that there's a lot of Air Mind pilots who are usually retired if was pilots as you know, who are very interested in it, but would never say anything like in their workplace about it.

So I think there's a lot of like closeted UFO fans out there, and I think through shows like Yours and Coast to Coast and things like that, I think that you know, they're getting the information that they would like to get and learn more about it. Yeah, I think it's great to provide

it and that that happens. And I always think it's great of people like you, and I love to hear the stories because it does take some courage to go to those arenas, and I'd like to hear when people like you go to publishers or to places where you are looked at sideways and brave enough to say, hey, this is what I want to do, because I think it helps loosen up those environments out there that still have that, you know, looking at you sideways kind of connotation attached to this whole thing.

Well, you know, in my case, I've been doing it for a long time, and you know, publishing or being a published writer, it's a hot business to stay in. It changes all the time, and people always say, you know, publishing is is Really it's worse it's ever been. I've heard that for twenty years. You know, they're into making money, frankly, and you know they'll publish something that they think will make money.

But on the other hand, you know, when you go approach them with a project like this, what you're doing is that not only will you writer be involved this this is going to take like two years of good life, but it's also going to take a certain amount of time on the of an editor, of an editor's assistant, of you know, the publisher itself, the print of the copy of that. So you're involving a lot of people. When you sign a book contract, your agent is another one.

And so the idea, I thought the idea would be well, let's just make this so it's informative and it's it's really just it's not a long text

or a thesis on UFOs. It's a collection of seventy episodes put in chronological order, having to do it military encuncters with UFOs, and I just thought, well, this is the way that we'll do it where at the very least it will be entertaining and maybe if people, some people out there who don't believe in UFOs read it. I think by the end of the book, you know, I think we make a big case that UFOs exists and something's going on, so at at least it will attract the interest of everyone

who is going to be involved in it. So that's kind of how I looked at the you know, I had a little bit of a track record, so you combine those two things, and I really didn't run into too much, you know, looking sideways at me a little bit, but not

much. That's good. What I think other people also find exciting and or at least they don't expect, which is, you know, something you certainly touch on in this book are the very credible accounts and the credible people that have had experiences and you're certainly talking to a lot because you know, people hold for the most part, military people are retired military pretty highly and there are a lot of these guys that have sightings or know of excitings, or

have buddies who have sightings. I think for me that was interesting when I started getting involved with this how much military personnel have had stories. But we found a lot of them, you know, and it kind of goes to the idea that, you know, what we're trying to say in the book is that you know, during times of war or when we're preparing to go to war, that UFO citing spike, So it would just be natural that

a lot of military people would be the people observing these things. And that's certainly the case in in once again, It's It's It's an It's a something says it says something about the military of the United States that the military structure has definitely been involved in some kind of a cover up of uwerfols, whether they know what they are and they're covering that up, or they don't know

what they are and they're covering that up. But it's something about the American military person that when someone tells them don't say anything about this ever again, which is which is usually what someone is told if they report a UFO citing while they're a member of the military. And you know, a lot of people stick to that oath. A lot of people go to the grave not telling what happened, you know, and it's it says something good about you

know, the American military person. But as people like us who are trying to get to the bottom of this, I mean more people, you know, a lot of more people more than me, but you know, it's kind of a hindrance too. But so you know, there's a certain amount of coverage on the pot of people who you know, usually retired military people who have seen something to come forward and tell people like us what they saw.

But every time they do it just further, it just moves us that much further down the road to figure out what this thing is, right, And I want to get more into that, and I you know, all of your comments just inspire more questions. But before I forget, I do want to kind of get to the beginning as to what peaud your interests in

the UFO phenomenon. Well, when I was a hit growing up in Boston, I would go to the library all the time, and I would just look for every UFO book that I could find, and I read them over and over. There there's only a certain number of them in this little library we went to, so I wound up reading them over and over again. And I was a fan of science fiction too. I grew up in the fifties and there was a lot of kind of sci fi UFO stuff going on,

so it always attracted my interest. But I've never seen one. I always wanted to see one, but I never saw one. But what really convinced me that something was going on was I have an older brother who was in the Air Force for twenty five years, and when he first joined the Air Force, he was only in the Air Force, probably about a year and a half or so. He was a jet engine mechanic and he was assigned to an airbase down in South Carolina, and he told me the story.

He was out on the flight line at night. They were fixing an airplane in the middle of the night, only because it got so hot down there during the day that it was more comfortable for them to do it at night. And he was out there with three or four other people, isolated out of the flight line, and this UFO came out of the sky, came right down on top of the right on top of them, and it

startled them so much they actually dove underneath the airplane for cover. He looked up at this thing, he says, it was just it was a flying sauce. It was a sauce of shape that lights. It was right. It stayed hovering over the airplane for a few minutes, and then it took off. And then he said, he made the supreme mistake of telling higher authority. And so what they did was they isolated he and the four people who were with him, put them in separate rooms, and for the next

four days didn't interrogate them. But basically what they did was they had them tell their story over and over and over again, night and day, over and over again for four or five days. And my brother said, at the end of the fourth day, he just wanted to get out of there.

So what they had them do with the Air Force had to do was sign, let's say, an affidavit or a statement saying that what they actually saw was a reentry vehicle from something that had been shot off from Cape Canaveral, And he says he signed it. They all signed because they just wanted this just to end, and he did, and he said he really regretted

ever telling anybody about it. And that's that's the atmosphere that you have in the military that you know, we find that all throughout this, as we have in the book, is that if you say anything about it, you're going to be ridiculed, or you're going to be questioned and let's say, just bored to the point of saying, you know, I that isn't really

what I saw. Now. The unusual thing about my brother's career is that towards the end of his career, or certainly later when he was further into his career at the Air Force, he was sent to Area fifty one a couple times to work on Air Force planes that had broken down out there. So he's actually been there, and he told me a few stories about, you know, not UFO relate or anything, but just what a strange place that is. One of them is that when he got off the plane,

there was a sign there that said, remember you would never hear. And another wird thing he told me is that for some reason, there's lawns in front of a lot of the buildings out there, and as you know, it's out in the middle of the desert, and it just struck him as odd that there would be lawns out there and there were people with lawnmowers and trimming them and watering them, and you know, he just thought that was

very odd too. That is very strange. Yeah, and that well, and I'm sure you ran into this more dealing with the military, the whole idea of it's just too much of a headache. I have a funny story of mine was this guy who worked the do line way back, you know, during the beginning of the Cold War, and out on a ship way out there near Russia, and they had gotten a new radar system and this

radar system kept catching things that were strange. She was a radar tech and so they would call him up and say, hey, Carter, you know what's wrong with the radar. He would check it out and they would say nothing, and they ended up starting to call him Carter's contacts because they kept screwing up. They called and they had the guys come look at it, and they kept looking at it. You know, it was all this harassment and everything, and finally they just toned the thing down so it didn't get

as far. But Franklin wondered why the other radar boats weren't talking about this. Later on a couple of people and he got the same answer, are you kidding? We weren't going to report that we were getting that weird step, but we weren't going to say anything. We didn't want any trouble. And you get this over and again, we don't want any trouble, so we're not reporting it, right. It's you know. The unusual thing,

too, is that that's how it is in the US military. And there's there's a number of reasons for that, including the fact that in the beginning of the fifties, the CIA actually started a campaign to make it seem like

it would people would be ridiculed if they reported UFOs. But in Russia, and I'm sure you probably know this, in Russia back in the seventies, I think they were so interested in UFOs, this is when Russia was still the Soviet Union, that they told all their military people pilots, soldier, sailors, whatever, if you ever see a UFO, fill out a report and send it into US. So they basically had this huge army huge armed forces, millions of eyes looking in the sky reporting UFOs is the exact opposite

of, you know, the stance that we took. Now what they saw, what they found out, who knows, you know, And maybe some of that stuff came out when you know, the wall came down. I don't know, I get a feel, and a lot of it didn't. But there's just a complete opposite of the way that we look at it. And they were encouraging the soldiers to see them. We're discouraging our soldiers from

seeing them. Yeah, and it's also interesting and you might have found this and maybe you can speak to this kind of the evolution of our military. It quickly changed early on, but in the you see in the late forties and fifties that there really was these heated debates inside of the military going on about what do we do about this whole UFO thing before ridicule really kicked in

and it all shut down. But it was interesting back then because I think there was some debate do we do like the Russians, Do we have them send them out there and say, hey, tell us what's going on and you know, tell the public what we're experiencing, or do we shut it

up. Unfortunately, they chose to shut it up. Well, they chose to shut it up, right, and they would you know, you have to ask the question why, you know why there was there was a point in nineteen forty seven where you know, they the Air Force went to their A t i C Section which was made up of scientists, Air Intelligent, Air Technical Intelligence Center and and they said, look into UFOs and they were

called flying soiences at the time. And six months later they came back with, you know, their report was, we think these things are real and depending on basically said to them, that's not what we want to hear. Go and change the report. And they did, and they and they came back, you know, six months later. I'm shoting in the story, but they come back and said, well, most UFO settings are either hoaxes or hallucinations or whatever. That was the time right then that the Air Force

could have done a serious study on UFOs and they didn't. Instead of opening up, as you say, and really looking into it, they chose to cover it up, you know, and we're still suffering prior to sixty years

later. Yeah, and did you find in the military witnesses that you've talked to not only, of course, do we all suffer because we don't have the information, but in particular a lot of these poor guys suffer, yeah, if they say anything they do. In World War two, even in both American pilots and British pilots, what they found out very quickly in regards to the food fighters, they were running into these unidentified flying objects over Europe

and during the Pacific War as well, but over Europe they would these food fighters would trail them during bombing runs and show up and fly in formation with them. And some of them were glowing orbs, and some of them were craft cigar shaped craft, so sauce of shape craft and so on. And what they found out very quickly is that when they returned from their bombing mission and were debriefed by their intelligence offices, that the intelligence sauces would take the

animation about food fighters. But basically they were saying, look, we're here

to win the war, We're here to bomb Germany. Whatever these things are, we don't have time or the wherewithal to figure out what they are, so you know, if you're going to report them, sure, But what they found out was they were basically told silently don't report these things, and those people that didn't were ridiculed as you were just you know, pointing out so you know, you don't you know how the service is a very closed

society. You don't want to be ridiculed about anything, never mind, you know, for reporting some flashcood and Buck Roger's thing that was going on. So it really suppressed a lot of sightings that if if we knew more about them, we might be that much closer to figuring out what this thing is. I was thinking about starting chronologically, but maybe since you started up talking about the foo fighters, it would be a good point to jump in because

that's really the most well known UFO wartime phenomena, the foo fighters. Well, I have to give a tip of my hat to another author named Keith Chester. He wrote a book called Strange Company, which is the definitive book on food fighters, and anyone who wants to know everything there was to know about food fighters, they should pick that up. And he and I became friends over the phone and through email, and he helped me a lot as far as you know, way to research and how to do a book like

this. But basically what happened was early in World War two. We'll start with World War two in Europe when the British were started the bombing campaign against Germany. Very early in it, proma cruz were coming back and reporting that, you know, either going to the target, while over the target, or returning from the target. These strange glowing lights are they called them unguided rockets. At at some point or these aerial craft would would would tail them.

They would either trail behind them. Sometimes they would fly in formation off one of their wings. Sometimes they'd play in front of them. They would they would stay with their airplanes from anywhere from a minute to almost an hour. They would maneuver around them, and then you know, invariably they would take off in such a high versus speed they'd be gone in the blink of an eye. And these reports started kind of filtering in the British didn't really

know what to do about them. So once again this kind of ridicule, ridicule factor came in and these reports. They feel that a lot of them, the intelligence sources might have taken them, but they probably didn't go very high up the command chain. So then in nineteen forty two, when the American Air Force started arriving end of forty two beginning point three started arriving in

force in England. Air Force said, the US Air Force used on the Air Force, it was called the time, used to bomb during the day and the British would bomb at night. And suddenly American crews start seeing all these weird things too. And there was the same situation where the intelligence officers were faced with this problem with well, look at we want to get all details we can't about how to beat Germany. But you know this crazy you

know, as they said buck rogers, flash gorge and stuff. Because those things were very popular at the time. They just didn't know what to do with it. So for the most most part they suppressed it. There were situations where photos were taken and they were examined. There's a story that came

out just a little while ago. The Winston Church was actually shown a very detailed secret photo of a fool fighter that had been trailing a British reconnaissance plane, and he banned it from being released for fifty years because he thought it was from out of space and he thought if there were people here from out of space beings that our society would collapse. So anyway, people saw these things all throughout the Wall, British pilots, American pilots, as it turned

out, German pilots saw them too, and the Pacific. There's a lot of reports of the same thing, these weird craft trailing our Obamas on these long bombing runs that they would do over the Pacific, and probably maybe about ten percent or even less were actually reported and recorded. I think Keith Chester figures that, you know, the vast, vast majority of them went unreported, and you know, that's a shame, but that's that's just the situation.

And the strange thing is too, is when the war was over, I mean, for a lot of the British especially, they were just convinced these were German super weapons and at the end of the war we would find out what they were. But and there's a lot of books around these days, frankly where you know that they make their haste that these things were Nazi

super weapons and they might still be round and so on. But we went to detail in the book saying that it's impossible for them to have been Nazi weapons because number one, there was no recorded instances of any of these Foo fighters firing on our obomas. So if they were Nazi weapons, why wouldn't they fire on us? Why wouldn't they fire on our troops? Number two?

By midway through the war in nineteen forty three or so, the Nazis were running out of all kinds of materi reels, steel, rubber, barbarians, oil, so on and so forth. Nineteen forty four, even though they had jet fighters the enemy to sixty two, the cockpits were made out of wood because they didn't have the steel to make the cockpits. So how could the Nazis have had these fantastic flying machines when they were building their jet

fighters cockpits out of wood? And where was the support structure for these kinds of machines? Where's the scientists, where's the fuel, where's the vast underground facility making these things? And the biggest question of all is if they had some aerial machines that could fly ten thousand miles an hour do all these incredible

things, why did they lose the law? So they couldn't have been Nazi super weapons, they were something else, right, Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, So I'm glad you went there because I know there wasn't even there was one report and I can't remember who it was where he during the soon after the war. Speculate that these were probably probes that were these little orbs from the Germans. But like you said, there wasn't

evidence of this technology, nor did we find these things. And if they could do that back then, you know, of course we did try to retrieve all the technology we could from the Germans, and that hasn't been created right, And you know how it went after the war was you know, half the German scientists went to the Russians and half the German scientists came to the United States and basically to one Braun and his men put NASA on the

moon. I mean, it was the German scientist the knowledge of rockets, liquid fuel rockets that put us on the moon. So if these had been German super weapons, those guys would have had to have been involved in it. So why didn't they just turn over all these secrets to NASSA And why would we be bothering putting huge you know, basically bombs inside of rockets to get into orbit when this crazyly technology technology was around. It just doesn't make

sense that they would Nazi super weapons. Plus they saw them in the Pacific too. Now, the Food Fighter incident. A lot of people talk about modern euthology starting with the Kenneth Arnolds sighting in forty seven. However, I kind of really feel that it all got started and this slow momentum began to build due to the food Fighters because I don't know if you found this, but you probably did that. There were a lot of well respected military people.

I mean, these were our heroes after World War Two. These guys won the war, saved the world, they saved the planet. And when they came out and they started saying we saw UFOs when we were back there and when we're fighting and even now flying around in the United States, people took their words. And even when the Air Force tried to debunk them. I mean people are like, look, Air Force officials, you're trying to tell us this war hero is not telling the truth. I'm sorry. We

believe him more. Well, you know, it was it was definitely a campaign that the Air Force, you know, went ahead with full force, and that was to cover up the situation two and then to make anyone who reported the UFO, whether there were civilians or military, make them the object of ridicule and any you know, the the the Air Force had several projects of blue Book grudge were you know, a couple of the names and these things weren't they weren't you know, filled with scientists, you know, with

lab coats looking into UFOs. They were just basically military officers who were trying their best to debunk every UFO report that would come in. And I think it was doctor Jay Allen Heinek who said that during you know, when the military was investigating UFOs, none of them got the quote unquote FBI treatment,

meaning you know, none of them got the CSI treatment. Basically, what they were doing was they would take the UFO citing that they knew was venus or seagulls or something like that, and they would that's what they would investigate. So they would at the end of their investigation, they would say, see it was just venus. See it was just a flock of seagulls. And the ones that they couldn't explain are the ones that they didn't investigate.

And that's how their force basically was able to cover this up and put it in people's heads that if you saw a UFO, you always had to be aware that people were gonna say that you were crazy. And that's the atmosphere they created at the end of the forties and it's the atmosphere that's still around today. And it's even more so for as you say, for the military pilots, high military offices, airline pilots. They don't dare say anything about

this stuff, not in this country because you'll just be ridiculed. Now you get into then after the food fighter incident, well food fighters, and maybe I'll have you speak to this because this is kind of interesting. It seems like and maybe I'm well, maybe you know better, the food fighter phenomena curbed that then things change and people started seeing saucers and things like that,

but it seemed like after World War Two it curved. Is that the case yeap when World War two was over, the food fighters one way, and just the fact that they went away once we stopped, you know, making war on each other, to me, it's just more evidence that you know, we try to get across from the book, is that during war are preparing for the war, THEFOS sightings go way up, and it's because it's as if they're watching us, watching what we do. But once the war

was over, no more food fighters are no more. What we came to know is food fighters, right, And I mean there were still military sightings, but they seem to be different, right, I mean they in nineteen forty seven when kind of finald you know, saw his at his sighting the summer of forty seven and he saw nine objects flying over Mountaineer. He was a businessman, I'm sure everyone knows, and he's flying in his private plane.

He landed after he made the sighting, and eventually the press talked to him and his quote was they looked like sausages, you know, going across the top of a lake. And the press took that and twisted it into flying sausages, and that's how we got the term flying sauces. What's interesting is as soon as that story hit the newspapers, people started seeing quote unquote flying sauces everywhere around the country that whole summer, including the Roswell incident happened

during that summer. The Mario Island incident happened right around that whole same time. We list in the book what happened in the week one week following kind of island sightings, and there were hundreds of sightings made of flying sauces, not cigar shaped, not food fidal looking flying sauces. So as soon as that term got out there, all of a sudden people were seeing them everywhere. And you're right between the flying sausa shape and the cigar shaped object.

Those two descriptions are what people see the most, and a lot of that started after nineteen forty seven, and then after that you go into sightings that are a little less known. You know, we've tried to cover sightings at least not so much during the Korean War, because I don't know of a whole bunch of during Vietnam, but there were UFO sightings you go into during those wars as well. The Korean War was interesting. Actually, the Korean

War has a lot to do with the investigation of UFOs. And once again I have to tip my hat to another UFO writer named doctor Richard Haynes, who has written the book on is called Aerial Vehicles Spotted over Korea, and he really, just as Keith Chester wrote the book on food Fighters, he wrote the book on UFOs over Korea. And this is why Korea is important.

The Air Force shut down its Project grudge right before Korea started saying that if any UFOs either hoaxes or their delusions, or their their hallucinations, things of that nature. And then all of a sudden, Korea starts. And now you have the situation where you have lots of jet fighters, jet fighter pilots flying around in jets that not only you know are armed, but they also have radars in them, and we have a lot of raidars on the

ground. We have a lot of radars and ships. So in Korea is relatively small country, it's about one third of the size of Texas, and so you have these crowded skies and people sat at seeing UFOs. We have a drawing in the book of an instant where these enormous UFOs showed up. These three Navy fighter bombers saw them, and now in a lot of ships offshore saw them. There was just a lot of UFO sightings in Korea.

And what happened was the Air Force, because they were primarily the ones investigating the UFO are we supposed to be We're in a position of saying, well, we've just said that anyone who reports the UFO is either a hoax or the delusional or the religious fanatic. Yet our pilots on our reporting them, so we can't call them all those things, because these are the guys who

were counting out to win this war. So they would come up with all these landish explanations, like there's one where a B twenty nine full of World War two veterans is on a bombing mission ups in North Korea and this thing comes up and rides alongside them for five minutes, a very bright, shining object, and then it takes off at high speed. And when these guys reported it, their force came up the explanation that it was an enemy flare.

You know, another huge object just seen over North Korea later on in the war, clocked at eight hundred miles an hour. Well, their force said that must have been an enemy weather balloon. So they would come up with all these crazy explanations, but behind the scenes, we're pretty sure what happened was and doctor Richard Haynes's agreed is what happened. Our pilots were seeing

so many of these things. The FOS said, you know, we better reopen an investigation into UFOs, and that's how Project Blue Book came about, and that lasted almost ten years. And relatively speaking, was probably the most successful if was investigation into UFOs, even though it wasn't really you know, that serious. They did some good work for the most part, didn't But

that's why career is important. If if things didn't happen as they did in Korea, maybe they would not have got back into the business of investigating UFOs at all. Yeah, and it goes to which is interesting is you know? And that's why I appreciate your book and I think this stuff is so important. And you know you referred to earlier about you know, the different Air Force studies and I know you're referring to Rupelt's work, who is working

on Blue Bilk. How important all of this military stuff was to the UFO phenomena back then because they were experiencing this and figuring out how to deal with it. And this is a perfect example Korea. And now they're guys who, like you said, they've got a back, are starting to experience these

things. So what do we do? And it's always been a struggle for them, right And like I say, you know, they were put in this position of saying, if we go with our official line, then we're saying all these pilots, all pilots, well, you know, many of them would train combat pilots veterans from World War Two. We got to say that their cranks, that they're hoaxes, that they're delusional. You know, they had really backed themselves into a corner and they couldn't get out of it,

and so they just started making up all these excuses. But once again, behind the scenes, they knew we have to get back into this. Now let's move on to Vietnam. Because Vietnam the difference, I guess here would be that the Conon Report had happened. So at this point, now Blue Book has been closed. You know, they they've had their report from see you the University of Colorado, where they've said, you know, there's no scientific evidence here. We we got to close this stuff down. As

they closed it all down. But then you get into Vietnam and you have accounts there also, right, the stories that we got into in Vietnam that we looked into very strange and they're unlike any other of the stories in the book. And I think it's because of the nature of the war itself. It wasn't the conventional war, it wasn't that there was no front lines. It was basically a war where we went in with massive force, and it

was a helicopter war. We put our soldiers in helicopters, land in enemy territory and try to kill more of them than they killed the bus because there was a body count which was going to determine the score of who won this war. Of course it didn't go that way, but that's the that's the strategy they tried to use. Plus, you were only there for a year. You could you could go. If you could make it those three hundred and sixty five days, then you were out. You were free. You

know. There was not that morale there was there were bad morale problems. There was not that the screed of core that people had in World War two. So and there was frankly a lot of drug use. So if you combine all those things together and to this kind of a negative aspect of the war. Every war is negative, but this is particularly negative. It just seems like that's a strange situation to put people in. So the so the reports a week from Vietnam are very strange. And I'll give you a few

examples. There's one story in the book about this gentleman who was on a helicopters a crew member of a helicopter. They went on one of these zombed assaults where they land a lot of helicopters on an nelz and go and try to engage the enemy, and his helicopter land in the landing zone was high grass, and between the heat of the day, the heat of the helicops, and the fact that the Commists troops were shooting at them, a grass

fire broke out. So they're landing basically in the middle of grass fire, and the helicopter behind them caught on fire. So his crew chief told him go back and help these guys. He's a fire extinguisher, and go back and help him. He runs, he's unon he runs back to the helicopter. By the time he gets there, they've solved their problem and they're taking off. So now he's out in the middle of this field. He's so oriented, he has no weapon. He's in the middle of a firefight,

in the middle of a grass fire. So in the middle of all that, a Communist soldier appears and is about to shoot him, and before that can happen, the communist soldier himself is shot by something and the American turns around. In what he sways he saw was this eight foot giant, you know, in a uniform but not an American unipont h and a helmet on, had some kind of a weapon. He had killed this Communist soldier, and the American just you know, took that opportunity to find his helicopter,

jump back on and get out of there. And as they were flying off, he could see the dead Communist soldier, but no sign of this giant. It's a very strange story, but you know, we had the put it in there because it really kind of gives you the flavor of these stories that we got from the Vietnam War. Another one, real quick was had to do with there was a lot of CIA activity in the world in Vietnam. So there's this one story where this CIA hit team had infiltrated into Vietnam.

They're an assassination mission. They carried out the mission. They were coming back to their point where the helicopter was going to take them out. Some Climateist soldiers got on their trail. There's a running gun battle. They get to this area where there's two hills. The Americans hide on one hill, the Communists going to this other hill and a firefight stots. Out of the

blue comes this object. The Communists probably thought it was the helicopter come and picking up the CIA team, but it turns out to be a flying saucer. They fire on it. The flying sauce fires back at them, and suddenly there's no more Communist fire. The flying sauce, that takes off at tremendous speed, goes out to the ocean. The CIA team waits a little while, then they go over to the next hill and they find all the Communist soldiers, you know, basically evaporated or very little left of them.

Their helicopter coms picks them up. They go back to their base and they tell their superiors about their mission, but also what happened with the flying saucer. They are then brought to an interrogation center given some kind of a drug, almost like an amnesia drug. The person who told this story, for whatever reason, had no effect on him. He could remember what the other members of his team couldn't. He soon got out of the military, m got out of the CIA, moved to Alaska. Years later, he became

a fisherman. He was out in his boat with his wife and the same ufo that he saw over Vietnam that day appeared above his boat, and the way he took it was, this is how I can close this chapter in my life. The ufo stayed there for a little while and then took off, and that's how he looked at it. But once again, it's a very strange story. There's no other stories in the book like anything like that. Just for some reason, the stories that came from Vietnam were just really

really weird. That is so strange, and what it reminds me it kind of harkens back to which we'll get into, because you're during your book the ancient stories and kind of the biblical stories of you know, the God smiting our enemies and all of these stories of the the Middle Ages. So and it's interesting that Vietnam had that tone, right, you're right there. We have a couple of stories in the book about Alexander the Great in three twelve

BC. He was, you know, he was in the in the process of conquering the noble world back then, and he had come to this river strategic river crossing, and his army was made up of many troops but also cavalry with usses and war elephants, They're about to go across this river when these as they described as flying shields up here and buzzed the army to the point where they scared the animals, and the animals would not go across the river. So there's a case where it seems like the UFOs were trying to

interfere with what he was doing. But then a couple of years later, he was laying siege to the city of Tire, which is off of present day Lebanon and was actually a city that was built out in a harbor, and Alexander had surrounded it and his troops were building a causeway out to it so they could attack it. And just as they completed this causeway, as

the story goes, the shield showed up again. One of them fired a bolt of something, knocked down the wall and allowed Alexander's troops to invade the city into and to take it. So, yes that they have like biblical connotations to them, But I have to say that of the seventy or episodes that we have in the book, only a handful have tell about the UFOs interfering, let's say, directly, in what we are doing. The vast

majority of them. The stories are just these UFOs foo fighters would if you want to call them, depending on the time period, just watching us, observing us as we go to wall right right, which is it seems extremely rare in UFO reports with this sort of choosing sides or anything. So it's

interesting that we had these during Vietnam. Now, you know, speaking of kind of it also has ancient connotations because these wars are in the Middle East and Babylonia and you call it over the Garden of Eden, but the Middle East, and of course are wars there. Now. I have actually had We've I've had a few stories from soldiers and Iraq and some UFO sightings and actually I've read a couple that were similar to this that you know, they

UFOs came and beamed everybody, all the bad guys. Have you had that sort of thing? What sort of sightings did you did you retrieve from that? When we were putting the book together, it just seemed, well, we started in nineteen oh nine with the scar Ships of Flap in England and we brought it up to right after the end of the First Gulf War, so we are literally spanning the twentieth century. So we didn't get into the

invasion of Iranq and we did not get into the war in Afghanistan. But in the First Golf War in nineteen ninety one, if you remember, Saddam Hussein invade Kuwait in the summer of nineteen ninety and then there was this six months of where we were continually building up our troops and then the war itself started in January of nineteen ninety one. Well, during that six month build up, of five months build up, there were many many reports of UFOs,

not just over the Persian Open, over the entire Middle East. And once again, is it because there were more eyes looking to the sky? Is it because there are more airplanes flying around because we're in this, you know, getting ready to wasit? Choi? But they were. We have stories about sightings in Egypt and Jordan and Israel and Oversaudi Arabia and then the

Persian Golf and so on. And then when the war itself started, and we have this story about how a UFO came down on a four ships in the in the Persian Gulf, a British ship and three American ships and it came solo that they fired on it. And there what people say, is you know in a war you shoot first and ask questions later. They just thought it was some kind of an enemy. Later on in the war, we had another story where four F sixteen's were going on a bombing mission to

Bagdad at night and they are early morning and they spotted UFO. One of the four F sixteens peeled off and intercepted it. As the story goes, the UFO shot at the F sixteen, and the F sixteen shot back and shot it down and it crashed in the Saudi Rabin Desert. People were there saw the wreckage before the American milli terry showed up to get them out of the area, and supposedly they packed it up in crates and flew it back

to the United States. And then, maybe the most intriguing story that we kept running into, and we saw it so many times that we felt we had to put in the book, was after the First Gulf War and before the invasion of Iraq, there was this kind of undeclared war between Iraq and the United States where there was a no fly zone over Iraq and US planes used to patrol over Iraq every day for years. Every once in a while, they would fire on one of Saddam Hussein's anti aircraft batteries, but they

were just basically degrading his anti aircraft system. Well, in the middle of all this, as the story goes, the supposedly the Iraqi anti aircraft people shot down a UFO and his people recovered it, brought it to what is considered Iraq's Area fifty one, and supposedly reverse engineered it. From that reverse

engineering made some fantastic weapons. And if you want to believe the people who were reporting this story, that was the WMD that we went in to look for in the invasion by Iraq. Now, and on one hand, it maybe it makes a little sense because we didn't find any nuclear weapons, we didn't find any biological weapons. In fact, we knew he probably didn't have those things because the UN was crawling all over Iraq for ten years looking for

those things and never found them. So was the US military looking for a WMD that was reverse engineered from a crash UFO that Saddam Hussein had recovered. It'd be a pretty wild story, it would be a pretty history changing story. But that story is out there, so we felt that we should put in the book so we did. Yeah, very interesting, interesting theory. And I guess before we get off the worst and I kind of ask you

some wrap up questions. We'll go back to the beginning at least of America and the American Revolution, and you even have some signing reports from that war. Well, once again, you know, we after did all the research and we had to distilled the number of stories to put in the book down to a reasonable number. We came upon this story, which again was too

good not to put. And then what it was was a report that during Valley Forge, at probably the lowest point of the American Revolution, where George Wasshton and the continent at the Lami was spending the winter in Valley Forge, they were almost out of food, water, even things to build fires with. They became friendly with an Indian tribe that they called the Green Skins, and these people gave them supplies of food and helped them get through the winter.

And it was reported that these people lived in a lodge that was circular, that was sometimes there and sometimes not. It's how they put it, and that has led some people to believe that, you know, these people might have been occupants of UFO, helping out George Washington once again, kind of an outlanda story. It would be a history changing event if it was true. But when you come upon a story like that, it's just too

good not to put in. Yeah, and it's yeah, it's well regardless, you know, I think it's important and just the whole sociological mythological site, you know, to record this stuff so we know it's a part of our history. It is. You're right, one question getting into kind of the overall you know. I know some of these people you had to talk with or work with, like to refrain from using the phrase UFO and they use UAP and I identified aerial phenomena because they feel there's a lot of baggage

with the term UFO. I know you used UFOs in your book, you know, did you run across that and what is your opinion of that debate? Well, I think you know, we used UFOs because I think everyone you know, kind of identify they know immediately what UFO when they see those three letters in a book or a document, they know what we're talking about.

I think it was Rupelt who came up. In fact, they know it was he who came up with that term because he wanted some kind of an umbrella term to take into account all these different shape, sizes and things that people were seeing before that. It was flying sauces before that, you know, it was who fighters before that, it was a number of other

strange things. But I didn't really run into it that much. But you know, if we had, you know, I think you have to stick with let people know, and there's going to be debates on everything, but just so as not to confuse people, we just used We tried to use UFOs from the point where Rupet had come up with the term, and before that we used flying sauce or an unidentified aerial object or whatever. But once he had come up with the term, you know, we felt pretty comfortable

just using it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you tell someone another term anyway, they're going to ask, well, what are you talking about, and you're gonna have to say, well, UFO right exactly, So you can't get around it. And I think it's you know, and it has some baggage, but books like yours and being brave enough to get out there and face that rad kill factor will hopefully eventually change that. Well, you know, I look at myself, I don't look at myself

as a UFO researcher. I look at myself as a reporter, and I'm kind of new to this, and I thought it would be an interested and interesting and kind of entertaining subject for people to pick up the book and read it and kind of make their own decision that the you know, after finishing it. But you know, in the course of doing that, I ran into a lot of UFO researchers. And I say this in the book, and it's for everyone. It's for people like you. It's for people like

George norri Is, for Keete Chester and Jerry Clark and these people. These are the people who are keeping this going and as you say, in always facing a wall of criticism to a certain degree. But you know, years ago, one hundreds of years ago, there were people who thought the world was round, where most people thought it was flat, and it was just it was those people who kept on pushing this, pushing this, and it

turns out they were right. I have a feeling that this is how it's going to be with the UFO researches, is that they're the ones who are in the forefront of this. They're the ones who were taking the hits, taking them ridicule. Some day they're going to be proved right, And they're

really the heroes of these of this thing. They're the people who saw the light first, and who knows, in ten years, maybe tomorrow, ten years, one hundred years, people look back on them and say, you know, if there wasn't for them, we would not have found the answer to this. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a positive way to look at it, and I hope that does ring true at some point the answers

come out. But what do you think, speaking of answers and the people holding those answers after doing all this work, you know, you've kind of had at the beginning of this show talked about what the military may or might may not know. How much do you think they do know? You're probably familiar with John Alexander and his view that they don't know a whole lot, or at least they're too incompetent to really put the pieces together so that they

don't want to admit that. What's your feeling, Well, I'm exactly fifty to fifty on that. Okay. On one hand, there's a lot of evidence that would lead you to believe that they know what they are and that they are keeping that keeping covering it up and don't want us to know. On the other hand, just as you mentioned, there's a lot of evidence that says they have no idea what they are and they're covering that up as well. The way that they did a lot of their investigations, would they

would they would? There was never an open, broad minded investigation. It was always couched with the idea that we're going to study UFOs to see if they're a threat to our national security, and they could say at the end of these quote quote investigations, we have found that they are not a threat to our national security. Therefore they don't exist. Okay, Now, what

would you rather? Would you rather the military know what they are and we're keeping this huge secret from us, a secret that would span all of human history? Or would you rather that they don't know what they are and they're powerless to know what they are? And that's what they're keeping secrets from, is that they're powerless to protect us from something that they don't want it is. I will tell you this, I am one hundred percent sure that they

know more about it than they're telling us. There's evidence in the book from people like Gordon Cooper, who was one of the original Mercury seven astronauts, who had two UFO encounters in his career before he became an astronaut, and one of them which a film crew that he was in charge of, took film moving film in photographs of a UFO landing at Edwards Air Force Base at

the end of the fifties. Those photographs went somewhere, these stories about UFOs trailing ships in World War Two in the Pacific, every major ship has a ship's photographer. If a UFO is tailing a ship for four hours, did you be sure that photographers up this taking pictures of them? Where are those pictures? The military knows more about them than they're letting us know. I know that much for a fact. The problem is is what do they know?

Do they know what they are or they don't know what they are? Either way, it's a little bit frightening. But are we ever going to know? That's the problem, right, And I think you pose a good, good question, a couple of good questions, are we ever going to know? But also the idea that if Alexander, let's say, is correct, and all of this data has been collected, but because they're so afraid

to look at it or to coalesce a group to look at it. That's so tragic that that would be the case and frightening that sort of incompetence would happen where they have this information in front of them, but they refuse to look at it because they're too afraid. Are these goofy silly reasons. Well, that could very possibly be the case. Yeah, you know, I mean the from the beginning is that the US military were the people designated to

investigate this thing, and they're the worst people to investigate it. I mean, the only people I can think it would be worse would be politicians. Yeah, Okay, this is something that should be turned over to the scientific community. It should be funded and have them look into it using you know, basic scientific methods. And I think if that happens, and other UFO researchers that I quote in the book agree, if that happens, will be

that much closer to figuring out what this is. I agree with that statement one hundred percent. You can't trust politics or military. They lie to each other, they lie about everything, everything secret. You can't trust anything.

Comfort to that, I agree, And then Finally, you know, I wonder if I know, sometimes putting these stories together and putting all of this analysis together, you ask some questions about, you know, who are these guys looking at us, the guys flying these UFOs, and who they are, And sometimes when you're putting together so many stories, you kind of feel like maybe you're getting a sense of these guys. Do you feel you have a sense at all of who is flying these things, what their motives are,

and what they're doing. Yes, I've come up with a theory. I think what they are is I think that they're time travelers from our future and they're coming back here to watch history as it's happening. That's interesting, you know, I used to ask people. I used to or this always. This is a question that I always think about that I'll ask people do you believe that we'll ever travel in time? One day? And if they say yes, that's almost akin to you saying there are probably time travelers here

right now. Well, they could be, they could very well be. That means that's possible. Einstein, you know, proved that you can travel in time. It's fact we're traveling time all the time. We're traveling in time right now, you and I and everyone on this planet is traveling towards

the future. But you know, the question that keeps coming keep kept coming back to me was if you have the technology to create a new flying aerial machine that or an unidentified aerial machine that can go seven ten thousand miles an hour, that can go so fast it goes in the blink of an eye. Okay, then why are you riding one hundred feet off the wing of a B seventeen bomber as it's dropping its bombs under Lynn? Why are you

doing that unless you wanted to see something up close. And that's the only conclusion that I could come to is that, you know, they might be historians coming back. They might be tourists coming back, but I get a feeling that and especially the fact that they think spiked during times of war were preparing for war. I just have a feeling there they're people who are coming back from our future to see history being made. I mean, if we

had the option, wouldn't you do it? I would do it. Go back and see how the Civil War was fought, or the Revolutionary Wall was fought, of the Trojan Wall was fought. I mean, you know who wouldn't take an advantage or something like that. That's what I believe after dealing with this for about three years. You know, there's no evidence their little Green men from us, and there's no more evidence of that than if they're try and travels. My theory is it's the people from our future who have

come back and they're seeing history as it's being made. That's very interesting. I mean, did you run across and I have in the past military personnel that you had talked to feeling that they had an abduction experience. Not an abduction experience, but I will say that I had conversations with someone who was

an employee of let's say, an unnamed three letter government agency. Okay, a very nice person helped me in some ways with the book, but at every turn tried to steer me in the direction of saying that what people are seeing SS seventy one recon planes, stealth fighters, media's venus, seagulls, everything. They would not admit to me that there might be something there and and would make up stories about you know, remulins and you know all this

stuff. Okay, that's that's one of the people that I know, and you know, the intelligence services almost seemed to go out of their way to get me to think that these things weren't real. That's about as close as I can answer to the question you asked. But I thought that was unusual. Yeah, that is very strange. And I've heard that before too, and it makes you wonder what those guys really know. Why are they so

adamant and making you believe that exactly? And this person was very and they were nice about it, and I knew exactly what they I was doing and read a lot of what I was doing before the book ever came out, and I thought I presented a lot of compelling evidence, you know, basically reporting on what others had already reported. But but you know, they would

not back down. They kept saying, oh no, you know, those UFOs they saw were over those silos, those ICVM so that was just an Essa seventy one flying over and you know, and I know that is not the case, right. I guess my final question real quick just popped into my mind. From one to ten, how confident of you are you on your future visitor theory? I'm going to say about a nine. Oh wow, so pretty confident. But it's a good one. Well, thank you

so much. Like I said, I'm excited. I haven't finished a book, but I'm going to write a review on it for our magazine. It's always real exciting when new authors come out, and we've had a few lately writing books, and especially a great author who's done some really interesting, you know, research to put together some great stories. Thank you so much for your work and for being on the show. Well, thanks a lot for

having me. Had a good time, and thanks very much. Oh do you have a website, by the way, we could all right, yeah, you can go. People can go to Mac Malone do and there'll be links there to order the book and to see some of the other stuff that we've done. The book came out yesterday and it can be ordered through Amazon dot com, Bondsanoble dot com, or it's put out by Penguin Books, so it's at every bookstore across the country starting yesterday. All right, great,

thank you again, and I wish you much success. Okay, thanks very much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks all right, thank you, Mac. And it is a great read, such a very interesting book, So go check that out. Wars or UFOs during wartime and next week. Join us. We're going to have another great guest. Be sure to check Openminds, dot tv, hand UFO Daily News for the latest news. A lot of the news we talked at the beginning of the show.

You can see pictures and videos and everything at our websites. Talk to you later. People to