Lee Speigel, Personal UFO Sighting and Jacques Vallée

Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with Martin UFO. Willis yo. How you doing? I'm not too bad. Someone contacted me the other day. Yeah, he listens to both of our shows, and his wife, who is I believe Peruvian, said, hey, they're pronouncing his name, Alejandro's name wrong and it's supposed to be Are you ready for this, Alejandro Rojas? Oh? Nice? Yeah, I am well aware actually that I pronounced

my name wrong. But you know what, so you can do what you want, right, Yeah, it is my name, so I could say that, you know. Actually, because it is my name, I could say no, I pronounced it in a special way because some people do that, you know, they'll pronounce like Gulette in the last Yeah, it's like Gulette or I can't remember. Oh, you know, there's that show, what is it Keeping Up with Appearances BBC show where their name is Bucket and

she says it's Bouquet. That's like sharp sharp at Targai. Yeah. Yeah, so I could say that, But the other problem is I can't roll my rs. My my mouth is not built that way. Oh so you were born with the wrong last name. I can't do it. You know. That's as close as like, yeah, I can't do it. I've tried all my life. So I apologize. I hope it doesn't offend anybody. But the only person it should have it should anger is myself. I guess if if that's right, that would be the only one getting mad.

Hey, you my name wrong? So yourself already? Yeah, and actually I'm cool. And you know, it's so funny. Someone was just saying that yesterday. Oh, Mark, Mark D'Antonio was in town. Uh, he spoke for Phoenix Move On and we were hanging out last night and he was laughing about how someone who runs the local mof on calls me Aleandre and

a lot of people do. I have a coworker here that does And he was laughing because he can say Alejandro, and uh, I'm like, yeah, even though I've known these people for years, they've always said a Leandro and I don't mind, you know what, I know who they reference and they're not doing it to me means, so whatever they want, I am

fine with. Yeah, anybody ever do that with you call you Martin, No Marta, I'm called Marty. It's funny Marty by all the childhood people that I run across, including family, and then you know Martin, as I got older, so I don't even care whatever. Yeah me too, I'm like whatever, they don't have to roll the rolling Martin ulise. Oh but Alejandro means red. I believe Ross means red. Oh that's what I meant. Ro Rojas is like and Martin means God of Mars. So the

red planet. There's some type of connection. Maybe we should be the first volunteers to live on Mars. Part of that, well, Alajndro is like the defender of mankind or something like that. I heard for mankind red. Yeah, and red Mars is the red planet. So I guess I'm you are like gonna be in charge of Mars and I'm gonna be like your head of the military. I guess where I'll be defending Mars Defense Department. Yeah, all right, Cool, it's gonna be fun. Yeah, cool,

which reminds me, uh, you know, that's cool. This is something cool, and this is this is pertinent. You know, if people are starting to get upset because they want us to talk about UFOs and space and stuff, you know this will be a good segue I I got invited. I get invited once in a while by this company that promotes science and film to go fly her to places and you know, see these interviews, or sometimes they'll set me up with interviews. So I've had interviews with you know,

movie makers and scriptwriters and stuff. Hopefully some of you have seen some of those blogs and stuff that I Usually they're usually blogs for the Huffington Post, but if I can get these people to talk about UFOs, then I'll do a story on open Minds, and sometimes I do. In fact, I've had the scriptwriter for that Will Smith's and his son that movie they did

on the show, because he was into UFOs and stuff a bit. But anyway, they invited me to go to I think it's going to be Johnson's Space Center next week and they're going to do a kind of a press conference. It's gonna be about the Martian. Maybe this is probably, you know, helping to ramp up some excitement before the Academy Awards, because I think now is when they're all vying and trying to market themselves to win awards. And so I'm gonna get out there and I'm gonna be able to meet some

astronauts. I'm gonna be able to see the rover, the next Mars rover. I'm gonna get to wear a NASA's spacesuit, like I don't take a whole suit, but like their jumpsuits. And yeah, and I'm gonna get to interview some astronauts and stuff, so people can look forward to that. If you go to my Facebook or my Twitter, this is going to be December second and third. I'll be tweeting pictures because you know, that's part of what they want us to do, which I'm cool with. So I'll

be tweeting pictures of everything that I'll be doing. And then there'll be a force coming article in the Huffington Post, and if I can get an astronaut to talk about UFOSH, then I'll do a story and open minds and hopefully I will because of course there's this Scott Kelly picture and some other things in fact that we'll talk about that in the news a little bit and where I'm insanely jealous. That is so awesome. Yeah, it's I am really excited

because I didn't go to go to the last one. I was busy where they did something similar at for the launch of the Martian and Ridley Scott was there and I was so looking forward to the launch of the Martian. I was really excited about the news. I'm of course a Ridley Scott fan, and I didn't get to uh to do that one unfortunately, so I'm excited to do this one. I we'll also get to watch a rocket launch, so this is going to be wow cool. So I'll be posting some stuff

about that. Yeah, neat, huh, that is great. Wow. So who's the guest today? Yeah, that's that's a good idea to mention the guests that you can tell you're a professional at these UFO podcasts. My guess is Lee Spiegel all again. Yeah, he's a guest I've had the most. But the reason I've got Lee on this time is because Lee was able to work with his friend Jacques Valet, who doesn't do UFO conferences like ever, and so he was able to get Jacques Vallet to come speak at

the UFO Congress. So in fact, it's going to be kind of like the Bob Blazar thing where Saturday night Lee will be doing a Q and a conversation on the stage with Jacques Valet. And so this is extremely exciting. That's great news for February. Yeah, really cool. And for people who don't know, because I don't know if you've ran across this, but there

are some people who don't know who Jacquevallet is. Well, you know, he's been at it so along and not in the limelight a lot, but people that have been around or look into the subject, No, he's been. You know, he's come up with some great thoughts and ideas and books, many great books over the years, all the way back to the late sixties, I believe, right. Yeah, So this is what's exciting about Jacques. Jacques was the protogat jay I like to put it. I think

of oh j Allen Heinich. So Heinich, of course was an astronomer at several universities, but most prominent or most well known for working at Northwestern and it was there that he met Jacques. So Heinik was a consultant for the US Air Force all the way from like forty seven to sixty nine on UFOs and Jacques used to think that the whole thing was I mean, Heinich used

to think the whole thing was ridiculous. But as time went on, he saw these great cases and he saw there really was something to this phenomena, and the rest of his life he looked into it and tried to push for, you know, serious study of the UFO phenomena. I think you know a lot of people credit him as that kind of like the grandfather of of ufology. He started modern UFO research. Well, and you know you interviewed Mark Rodiger, who is the current president of KUFOS, which Heinich started the

Center for UFO Studies. So when we've talked a lot about Mark lately that Heinich started, Well, Valet was a student of Heinix at Northwestern, an astronomer astronomy student, and they partnered up and they wrote some books together. Valet took this on himself. What I love about Valet is that he tackles the phenomena in a real big picture sense. He doesn't filter, He doesn't

look at UFOs and look at a phenomena of extraterrestrials coming to Earth. He looks at mysterious phenomena overall, trying to get the big picture, taking in all of the data and demonstrating that there's so much strangeness going on we don't know what the heck is going on. You know, he tries to push this idea that we don't know there's aliens coming here or extraterrestrials coming here, and people get frustrated with that, you know, him saying that. Now.

When I interviewed him, I did kind of pin him down, and he didn't want to go there because he likes to push this idea, which I think is really important, that there could be other things going on. But he did admit to me that, you know, he did believe that some of this, he said, some of this he was pretty certain is extraterrestrial in nature. So he does believe that. People like to say, oh, he doesn't even believe in aliens, but he does, at least

he told me that. And I've got it on. But yeah, and Vallet has written a lot of books towards this. Pasport to Magonia is one of his really popular ones. He's just got anatomy of a phenomena, dimensions, revelations, all kinds of great books. So he's been around for decades. In fact, in Close Encounters Truffo is based on him. Well, Lee and I are going to talk a lot more about him. But yeah, just an extremely important guy. He then became a computer scientist and a

venture capitalist. He's done very well for himself, so he doesn't need to rely on his book sales or eufology, so he doesn't really associate with the

UFO field or at least you know, the conferences and stuff. But he is good friends I found not only with Lee, but with George Knab and with Doug Trumbull, who is of course the famous and incredible special effects artists who worked on well with Speaking of Ridley Scot, he worked on Blade Runner, he worked on Close Encounters, and he's worked on a lot of two thousand and one, the most important stuff. And of course he's working with

Mark D'Antonio Trumbull. Ye, so and Mark talked about that, and we've interviewed you've probably interviewed Mark about euphotog and their project just a few weeks ago. As a matter of fact, Yeah, so you were on the show actually, Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. You were at his house and this bunker. So yeah, so, very very excited about Valet, and so Lee and I will talk about that, and we were going to talk some UFO news, but we just didn't have time. We got so

into valet and the other conference kind of stuff. Oh, so that's why I'm here. You guys didn't get a chance to talk about news. Well, you know, you and I talked about the latest news, and so I knew we'd have some news to talk about, regardless of whether or I Lee and I got into some news. So oh, and speaking of, let's go ahead and talk some news. And I'm gonna go first, if you don't mind, sure, go ahead. And uh, the Scott Kelly thing, I didn't even write a story on it, because this is what's

kind of funny. And I know Lee is writing a story on it. But you know, there are these people and I won't mention names, who are looking at stuff on Mars and every picture from NASA and every type of little thing. They can't understand what it is. They're claiming it's a UFO and an alien spaceship. And I wouldn't mind if they're like, Hey, this is weird. What do you guys think? I think that's valid.

I think that's great when people do that, because then we can all talk it over and sometimes we can't figure it out, but lots of times someone can figure it out, especially people like Mark who are very u learned in this area and know a lot about optics and everything because they work with that sort of thing every day. But you know, it's frustrating when people do that, and so sky Kelly is always taking he's an astronaut up on the ISS. He's going to be the guy who, when he's done, will

have been in space the longest out of any human. And he's taken lots of amazing pictures on a regular basis. And one of them he posted, just like several you know, there's a there's a light, a lit up area in the upper right hand corner. And so of course you know these people who do this said, look he took a picture of a UFO and look there's a big alien spacecraft because aliens are watching him, and blah blah

blah. But I think in our in our open Minds group, one of the admins, Angelo Marc, has put in some interesting comments but was able to show it actually in many of the other pictures, you could see in the same frame that Scott Kelly takes this picture, there's part of the ISS

that you can see on the top of the frame. As Mark pointed out, in this particular picture, they were on the dark side, so there was they were all completely dark, so you can't see any that part of the ISS, but you do see a light, and so he was able to show it looks like that light is from the ISS itself, just a different part of it, not an alien spacecraft. It's actually from the ISS

itself. Yeah so yeah, so and if you see it, you know, Angelo did a good job where you took other pictures where you can't see it, where they're on the light side, where they're lit up by the sun, and that is part of the ISS is right there. Wow. So so, but a lot of media is picking this up because of course the UK picks up every one of these stories, some of those tabloid type papers that we talk about often, and now some American media has picked it

up. And I know Lee's gonna write a story kind of clearing all this up. I'm not even gonna. I typically just don't waste my time on those unless you know something interesting comes of them. It's too bad something like that, you know, gets carried away right off the bat and without people really looking into it. Because you know, you're right, why the only reason to write an article now is to set it straight because the UK is writing a lot of articles and kind of not really kind of making a lot

of assumptions. I guess I should say it that way. Yeah, And I you know, we could spend time just setting it straight, but I don't want to be, you know, spending all my time debunking, you know, this crappy stuff that they're they're doing, where there's there's really good stuff to pursue right now. So yeah, so that's so unfortunately there's a

lot of bad quality kind of stuff getting out there. But you know, if you want to see some of this stuff and debate it or talk about it, the Open minds UFO group on Facebook is made for discussion and it's growing pretty quickly and there's lots of great people in there. Mark is actually one of the admins, so he's in there commenting a lot as well, and so it's a lot of fun and it's a lot of you know, there's someone who submitted there's been a few people who submitted pictures. People have

looked at him and then figured out what they are. There's some where people haven't figured out what they are. But I really encourage people to do that and really think people even if we do figure out what it is, it's great to post it in there, and people should not feel badly at all for posting something that turns out to be a reflection or something, because we all do it and that's what it's. You know, we need to continue to do, is to figure these things out because there may be a time

where you'll post something that is not so easily explained. That's right, Yeah, that's that's good and it is growing. I noticed that, and it is a good place for people to because there's a lot of really talented eyes looking at that stuff. Yeah, some people who have been doing that for

a while. So cool. So your turn. Oh, okay, I want to talk about I love when there's police officers involved in the UFOs to me, and I know, you know, I've had arguments with the skeptics to say, well, they're not any more of an observer than anyone else. In my opinion, I think they are a little better. And I also think that they're less inclined to talk about a UFO than the average Joe would because you know, it could be a little bit threatening to their career

possibly. But anyway, so what happened this is on November third, and there were there were k nine officers witnessing. There were green lights sort of like a lime, but sort of a bright lime green lights that they saw floating across the sky in Ohio. And then they noticed that there were two equilateral triangles, and I think they said there was about they believed there was about seven objects because a lower orb like followed the path of the triangles and

the other ones and a great case. Now these these guys were both there was more than two. I believe they were you know, veterans, and they had some pretty extensive law enforcement training and careers. So anyway, I think it's a good sighting. And it is near the Youngstown Warren Regional Airport

and there is a lot going on because of that. But to see solid green lights instead of you know, the regular navigation lights on an aircraft, Now this could be drones possibly, but they wouldn't be flying legally, I believe. So that's what I got. Yeah, And I agree with you that, you know, police do have some training too an observation, and so that makes them trained, so they are a better observer than the average

person. So I agree with you. I really like them, and like like you said, they're putting their they're putting their reputation on the line more so than others. And you know, it's almost like any male dominated fraternity or like I know you when you talk to firemen or other groups, they get a little bit more teasing than others when something happens, and so they have to face maybe even a little more ridicule than the rest of us.

So so they want to be, you know, really certain when they're talking about stuff like this. So I think they are great witnesses. Here's another story that I think is really interesting. I love these stories. I like ORB stories. So of course there's orb photography that is often you know, dust particles in the air caught by the flash of a camera or other types

of things like this. Because even in the IR and infrared, the infrared, that kind of source infrared light source that isn't visible light, but it is still a type of light can cause the same effect. But there are people who see a credible witness is orbs floating around like in forests or the

brown mountain lights. I've even seen a couple of really good ORB videos, and unfortunately these aren't ones that are online, but I've seen some in that you know, years of investigation, some really good or videos that have been examined by many people and could not be explained. And we talked about the Hesdelen lights, you know with the UFO Data Group had investigated those, So that's really interesting. You and I, you know I talked to with Mark

Roding, are also about those. But this is in Oregon where a witness described these lights moving across the property and the witness this was in November of twenty fifteen, that they saw a large yellow orange fireball with a large tail falling. It was moving slow and it lit up this person's property and they made some pictures of what this thing was like, kind of cruising across their

property below tree level. So the pictures are really neat, but there are so many witnesses describing this sort of thing that it fascinates me because how amazing would it be to be in the forest and to see this ball of light kind of come floating by. I think some people would be very scared and some would be I don't know where i'd be. You know, it's kind of funny. You don't know how you're going to react until something happens.

Yeah, yeah, but I know my past reaction, you know, to the one sighting that I had was definitely one of like what the heck? So yeah, so that's a really strange one. And I love these Marley lights is another place I just think this is fascinating, probably because I camp and stuff too, and so it's one of the things I think about. But you know, now, rarely does stuff scare me, at least as far as paranormal phenomena. It doesn't scare me anymore because you know, when

you're out investigating it and you want it to happen so badly. At first, you're afraid because you're thinking, oh what if You're thinking of all the stories, what if it happens? Oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? But as time goes on and you're trying to experience the phenomena and it doesn't happen, and you start to do all of these things to try to make it happen and it doesn't, then you know, you lose your

fear over time. So even with ghosts and stuff, because I've spent a lot of time even ghost setting, if I saw something, I would move towards it and I would investigate it. What scares me? Are you know, more of mundane things or at least animal or humans are more scary than anything. But but paranormal phenomena I would move close to and it may kill me. That maybe I may approach an orb and touch it and disintegrate and you may go into another dimension. Yeah, and it'll send me a postcard.

Yeah I will if I can. I'll do my best. It may be an orb, don't touch it, just I'll just try to make it scroll. Hello Martin. That a reticular is awesome. So yeah, So there's some news for the week. Not a lot of other big news. Some more sightings from Roger marsh on the site. And of course I've been really working on the conference and really excited about that. So I posted the

thing about Jacques Valet and sent an email out I'm really excited. I had on Luigi, Vinda Telli and Emily Trim well Luigi on my show and there was a special guest in the room, Emily Trim. Emily Trim is actually a witness to the Ruwa Encounter aerial school encounter. For people who don't know, this was a thing where all these school children saw Ufo land in the

school and an alien come out and you know they're freaking out. And at first the adults were like ignoring the kids, and then you know they found out, Wow, this, You know, these kids really experienced something. And then people went and interviewed them. But we have one of those witnesses, and she's going to talk about her incredible experience and the art inspired by the messages she received. Wow. Yeah, to me, that's one of

my favorite cases. It's a lot of people's favorite cases. And so that's why I'm so excited to have her and in fact, I've got to talk to her. But and she's very timid, so that's why she had doesn't really do this. But her friend Luigi is not timid. He's a really outgoing guy. He's a UFO researcher and stuff in Canada, really cool guy, and so he's gonna help her along to do this and I think it's going to be fascinating. Well, how's she going to be able to speak?

Is she gonna have trouble with that? I think she will a bit, But you know they're gonna work together. And luckily they kind of had a trial run they did this, and we got to meet them in like March, they came to the office and then partially because my boss got a drone and Luigi sells and operates drones, until he came to help us out and show us how to use it and stuff, and she came with and then and she opened up after a little bit after you know, getting to

know us, because it's hard to tell people about aliens and stuff. You know. Obviously she doesn't like to talk to people about it because she doesn't know how they're going to react. But of course we were very open to hearing what she had to say, and it was really cool. But Luigi's going to help her. And she did do a talk after that in Canada, some kind of event they had out there, and so that went well, I guess, and she felt comfortable. And so they're gonna do it

on stage for us at the Congress. But what's really cool, and I think what will help is she's going to have a vendor table where she's going to be showing her art the entire week at the Congress, and so she'll get to interact with people, and I know, knowing our crowd, people are going to be really nice and terribly interested and fascinated by her work, so I'm sure that'll really help her feel more comfortable. Can you see that online anywhere? Does she have a website? No, you can't. Actually,

she doesn't have a website yet. She does have a Facebook page for Emily Trim. I'm not sure if it's even open to the public. She does post some stuff there, but I know, I think in the picture I posted, there's a little bit of her artwork. And here's what I'll do actually today, because I took a picture of her sitting right where I am right now with her artwork spread out, and I'll post that picture on her speaker page on the Congress site because I've been thinking of doing that anyway,

so people can see a little bit of her artwork. Great. Yeah, so it's really cool stuff. So and then i'll, uh, I'll maybe text you a picture or two, Martin, And for the rest of you, you're just gonna have to come to the Congress. Sorry, there you go. Yep, that's just the way it goes. Yeah, but we would love to see everybody, so it'll be awesome. So that's what's going on. Anything else that you wanted to talk about, bud Oh, I think we did. We did another kind of a long one today.

Yeah, I know, and it's a long one with Lis. So people like the longer shows. They're always, you know, begging for long shows, so they're getting one today. Good. All right, I look forward to hearing him. Yeah. And because of the holiday this week, we won't have a UFO report on YouTube this week, so people will be able to enjoy a long UFO or along Open Minds Radio. And you know what's

great, people, And this is what I think people should do. I think this is what Martin's going to do, is share this podcast with your family, you know, when you all gather at Thanksgiving and sit down for dinner, you know, pop in the podcast and play it while you're having old tube radios. Yeah, so while you're having Thanksgiving dinner, you know, treat your family to some UFO news and information. We'd love to be there at the table with you Thanksgiving, right, Martin, that's right,

cozy up with us. Yeah, Hi, Grandma, don't eat that too much pumpkin pie, Grandma, save me some stuff and yeah, all right, okay, cool, Well you have a great holiday yourself, Marty, same here, all right, alijndro all right, thank you. You said that very well. All right, all right, well let's hear what that goofy Lee Spiegel guy has to say. I am so happy to be back here with Lee Spiegel. Welcome back to the show. Lee. Well, thank you Alehanjo. It seems like forever since we did this, Yeah,

doesn't it. You know what's funny, I have your page up with your stories, so you know, we can talk about some of them in a minute, but of course we have a little bit more exciting stuff to talk about first, not that your stories aren't exciting, but it's funny to see these. I mean, it looks like there are versions of your stories in Korean and and this looks like, I don't know what this is French. Maybe I don't know who decided to do that. And it's not just for

my stories. I think it's partially a way of letting people who go to each writer has their own a story section. Maybe it's a way of showing people that we are international, and so now we're going to prove it, you know, by letting you see an entire story in you know, in Indian or you know, Indo, Chinese or Korean. And I mean that's fine. It's kind of a hoot for me to see what it actually looks like in another language. I kind of like that, Yeah, that's cool.

I mean, because I'm looking. I decided to look at my page and they haven't translated mine into any other language. Well, your stuff really belongs in English. I think, yeah, it's it's But that is really awesome, I think, I, you know, because it's one thing that I really appreciate, and it kind of is a good segue into one of our big topics for today is the international audience. So for instance, this

show and our website has quite a large international audience. We have a lot of Australians and British people listening to us, maybe some French people, who, of course we hope are safe and are doing okay over there, but as well as all the people in all of the unfortunately areas where there's problems going on, beyroot, where was the other? Oh the boco a ram, oh my gosh. And Africa hopefully those people we have some Africa needs

actually to talk about too. But it's really cool to have this international audience. And in fact, this is what's funny, because this is what we're going to talk about is Jacques Valets, who's French? And when I posted earlier this week and that Jacquova or earlier today or earlier in the week, I should say that Jacques Valet was going to be speaking at the UFO Congress, the first people, oh, no, this is what I did.

I'm sorry. Oh, and you played along with this. I posted just to tease people and to kind of get them ready to chum the waters, I suppose. I posted in our Open Mind UFO news group, which if you haven't joined on Facebook you should listeners out there. I posted, Hey, I'm just curious to hear what you guys think about Jacques Ballet and the

first people to respond were some French people. Yes, so I wonder if the French are more aware of Jacques and I guess you know, we'll start off with because there are some French news relating to Jacques that happened recently, and I know you're well aware of this, but we'll start off with you're the reason we got Jacques Ballet to come to the congress. Thank you so much. And how did that happen? Well, you know, you and I were talking a while ago about what could I do if you were going

to invite me back to the Congress. What could I do that would be different from just me standing on stage and doing a lecture or a presentation. Something that could involve a newsmaker of some sort who doesn't normally go to UFO events for a variety of reasons, and who has been portrayed, Who was portrayed in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. He was portrayed by

the very famous director and actor Francois Truffaux. And I think that people whenever I talk to people about that movie, when I say did you ever see Close Encounters? And when I say do you remember a character of a French scientist who was like the focus of the military and the government research into extraterrestrials, people will say, oh, yeah, yeah, I really liked that character. And I say, well, you know, the character name to

Claude Lacombe was actually modeled after Jacques Fallet. And when I first met Jacques, which was just a few months after Close Encounters came out, Close Encounters was the big holiday movie for nineteen seventy seven, and I started working and putting my United Nations presentation together in early seventy eight, and so I met Jacques for the first time while Close Encounters was still kind of lingering in the movie theaters and lingering in the consciousness of the public, and so for me

it was it was a huge thrill to finally meet him. And as people will discover when they go to the Congress, if they have a chance to actually talk with him, it's like talking to the character in the movie. You know. He sounds like that character. He says the same kinds of things like that character. He's very soft spoken and when he talks, you have to pay attention to him, you know, because he has so many really interesting, fascinating things to talk about in the whole UFO community that people

just don't get involved with or hear about. And he's always been consistent in that vein. He may have changed his mind through the years of what he thinks might be going on with UFOs or the intelligence behind UFOs, but his approach and how he presents it, it's amazing. People just really will stop

and listen to what he has to say. I've seen him. I've seen videos of Jacqua on stage at like TED conferences where he's not talking about UFOs at all, but he's talking about other abstract things in science that he's involved with, and you just can't help but listen to what he's saying. And

that takes a lot of charisma to have that effect on people. So when you and I were talking about what I could possibly do, and I started coming up with a wish list of who I might want to be on a stage with at the Congress talking one on one, Jacques was like right right at the top of the list because he and I had not really been together since he was one of my main speakers at the UN presentation that I did

it'll be thirty eight years ago in twenty sixteen. So I spoke with him several weeks ago because he contacted me his book Wonders in the Sky that he's the co author of with Chris Auback from France. It's an amazing book, and I know that you feel the same way about this, where it takes the whole idea of UFOs where people think modern UFO era means the nineteen forties

is where it all started, but that's blatantly untrue. It's completely untrue, and it hit Their book starts just before the Industrial Revolution and goes backward in time, and that's amazing because they've come up with incredible scientific and non scientific studies and sightings and reports going back thousands of years into antiquity that all resemble things that people are reporting now, which means it's never changed the kinds of

things that people have reported. And we can get more into that later. But just knowing that the new book was coming out again, he's updating the book, and he asked me if I might consider writing an update story to help promote his book. And I said yes, Jaka, I think that's excellent. I love your book. And so while I had him, while I had his attention, I said, so, Jacques, let me ask you something. Would you have any interest in appearing with me on a stage

in February at the International UFO Congress. And I get quiet because I was expecting him to say no, no, I don't do things like that. But he said yes, and I almost fell out of my chair. He said yes, I was right that he doesn't do UFO conferences, and he

wanted to do this. He thought that the idea was intriguing to not have to do a presentation, but to sit there in a couple of nice chairs and just have a discussion for an hour or so and just talk about things that people really want to hear about about UFOs and what might really be going on. And he said he would love to do that with me, and so I think I immediately contacted you and said what do you think about Jacques

Vallet? And then after you got off the floor because when you fell out of your chair, and then we've been piecing it together now and today you made the announcement. Well, and I don't think that you even knew. I don't remember if you knew. If I don't think you did that.

You know, we've been trying to get him for years. So let no, I didn't know you You told me that, and I was really amazed to hear that, because the only interview I've gotten with him after trying for years, even when I was with move On way back when we had tried to get him, because at least for me and a lot of euthologists, I mean, Jacquvalle is the eupologist upologist. You know, the first thing that comes to mind with living icons in this field, one of the first

is Jacques Vallet. And so but I've never been able to get him. You know you At first, my first thought when you mentioned his name is that, yeah, right, it's not gonna happen. But I think that was you hadn't even told me you were going to try, And then you're like, what do you think of this? And it's like, are you kidding? That would be amazing? So yeah, so exciting because we've tried for so long and he's such a neat guy, and Wonders in the Sky is so great. I mean, oh yeah, it's a great book.

And I was so excited when it came out because he hadn't done anything for a long time in this field. And this is my question to you too, as far as you know, having known him for so long, has he ever spoken at a UFO conference? I don't know. You know, he will do events like a TED event, or he'll go someplace where it'll be he'll be invited as one of many scientists. He likes being with scientists.

He likes talking with them because he doesn't he doesn't like to be around situations where there could be a fringe element, and there's always that possibility at so many conferences, and he likes to shy away from that and and he knows that there are people out there who don't necessarily agree with his vision of UFOs or where they might come from and what they might mean to Earthlings, and he sometimes is concerned about how people might react to him, so he

does shy away from stuff that's truly not scientific. I think if he knows that there's going to be a science aspect to it, he's very interested in it. I mean, I know, last year, Jacques and doctor Richard Haynes, a former NASA scientists, they were the only two American scientists who were invited to a big conference science conference in Paris, uh and they were

they were surprised that a lot of mainstream media just ignored it completely. And and this is this is the kind of thing that bothers Jacques a lot, because he doesn't understand how science can ignore this well. And but this was what I was wondering about that because of course I would have written about the French thing. And there were a lot of us, you know now we're online, you know, communicating and everything, trying to get information about that

meeting, but they were very tight lipped. They aren't releasing any videos or any information. Uh So none of us could get anything. Uh. I think they finally did go to you. I think they give you some stuff, But I mean, did they go to the press to try to get them to cover it? No? And that that's that's part of the point. I don't believe that the media was even invited to it. So so

it's like, you can't you can't have it both ways. If you're a scientist, if you want the media to cover what you do in an unbiased way, then then invite them. Let them come to these things and to

talk about what it's all about. Earlier this year, there was a there was a big I think it was a one day was it a one day or maybe a two day event in Washington, and I believe it was at the National Archives, And it was a whole thing about bringing scientists and researchers together to talk about how close are we as a species to having first contact with another intelligence? And I think Seth Shostak of the Seti Institute, I

think he was the first speaker to get up and talk about it. And as you and I know, a lot of scientists, very conservative scientists who would prefer not to eat even mention the word UFOs. Part of this man. A very big part of this from people I've talked with is they won't They won't do that. They won't acknowledge even the slightest possibility that there are

some UFO aspects that should be scientifically investigated. And the reason why they won't talk about it, the reason why airline pilots won't talk about the objects that often come buzzing around their aircraft that they can't explain, is because they all know that if they start to talk, it can be a career killer.

And we've heard this over and over again, you know. And and it's been like that for a long time, and and and there have been pilots who were basically said, if you go to the press and talk about this, it would be very very bad for our company and therefore very bad for your future here. You know, how do you deal with that? If you've had an experience, if you've seen something you can't explain, and you want to talk about it, but you realize you can't, you know,

it's a tough decision. Years ago, the military put out a dictate I think it was called Janet Janet JA NFP Joint Army Navy Air publication, and this was an official rule and regulation. It was a law that said anybody in the military who talks about or releases any classified info about UFOs. I forget what the fine was, but it was like five years in prison and

a ten thousand dollars fine. It's like whoa, well, who's going to talk under those circumstances you had, So you pretty much answered the question. You didn't think he's You're not sure if he spoke with out or UFO things, but he did do this scientific thing. I'm going to guess, and we could certainly ask Jacques and private, Yeah, if he has talked at UFO conferences, it's been in the distant past. I would suspect, yeah, for sure, because I mean, you and I keep up on what

he does. Mentioned the Ted talk, the other exciting thing that he did not too long ago, and I think this is really cool and this is a difference, and you know, this is what it made me think of. This is what I was going to ask you, is that when you referred how you know, talking about UFOs could be a career killer. Jacques Valet was essentially when he went to Northwestern, he was kind of a protege of j Allen Heinik, who was an ronnomer there who consulted for the Air

Force. So so Jacques has always been attached to the UFO thing, but he's a very successful person, so luckily it hasn't hampered him. It doesn't seem maybe that's something you can ask him. But one of the other appearances he did, which is I think extraordinary, is this huge, very expensive,

an elaborate business meeting in Saudi Arabia. Oh yes, here's ago where he convinced them to do a track of lectures about UFOs and aliens, which had like what Nick Pope, Stan Friedman, and then I think doctor mitchill Okaku, Mitchiakaku, and the only other person there was I think someone who

was associated with the Saudi Arabia organization. And each of those people had something like eight minutes or ten minutes, and they actually they released each of the of the little speeches by these people in high resolution and you can go on YouTube and you can see them all. And it was done very well. And you're right. Jacques was there, and I think at one point he said in his in his talk that there was something about what Mitchieyokaku had said

that really impressed Jacques and influenced them. It's it's always good, I think when you get important people like that, who who praise each other, and and and you know, who recognize and acknowledge that there are other people like you, other scientists in this case, who do think that it's important to

keep an open mind. So and I mean, I mean absolutely, And and you know, I didn't tell you this before, but once you actually announced that Jacques Vallet was going to be at the UFO Congress, I got an email from someone uh in Sydney, Australia. You mentioned Australia before. In Sydney Australia. This person is very well known in the in the UFO community worldwide. And in fact, he has a lot of people who really don't like his opinions on UFOs. And and he's been on stage before and

been in in all kinds of controversial situations. And John Alexander and his wife landed in Sydney, Australia today and and he emailed me right after he saw your announcement and the first thing he said to me was that's going to be a big draw. So there you go. Somebody, this Australian person said that. No, No, John Alexander went to Australia. Oh John Alexander,

Yes, always on our site commenting and everything. Yeah, John Alexander is great, he's there, he's our our friend and yeah, although he is controversial, but see, that's that's what's really interesting because he has a

sam similar issue as Nick Pope or Jacques Vallet. People get frustrated with Jacques because he says and when I interviewed him, he really pushed this this idea of that, you know, we don't know that these things are alien, and he kept writing that over and over again, which I think is a valid and an excellent point. But I did finally pin him down at the end of night, and he was reticent and I kind of had to pull it out of him. But do you believe that some of this phenomena may

be extraterrestul in nature? And he went so far as to say, I believe most likely, yes, that some of this is probably, if not definitely, extraterrestrial in nature. So that was a pretty bold statement. But you know, so there you go. It's not that he doesn't believe that, or he's saying it's not true or debunking or something like that. He's just looking for further answers and making sure we're careful and not jumping to assumptions.

John Alexander, he says UFOs are real. People don't listen. He believed a lot of great cases just because he doesn't think there's as big of a grand conspiracy as everyone else, and he's more qualified to know. Quite frankly, yes, doesn't mean he's you know, debunking. Same with Nick Pope, who has kind of a similar not exactly but similar perspective as John

Alexander. And this is the one that frustrates me the most. Sorry I'm getting on my soapbox now, but I think you would would sympathize is that Nick Pope has done more for this field than many many other people. I mean, he worked for the Defense Ministry of Defense. He doesn't have to talk about this topic. He could totally shy away from it and probably would help his career, but he never backs down that this is a phenomena,

it's real. He learned that from researching it in defense, kind of like JL and Heine's perspective had changed once he did some official investigation, and he has enlightened these higher echelons of media that he is able to access, kind of like Leslie Kane or even you. He's enlightened so many people and shocked so many people, but people are still, oh, he worked for the

government. He's not sharing everything. He's a bad guy. It's a kind of a frustrating thing that all of these people, and well and even you face at times because of course you're working for mainstream media, which of course is the illuminati and the aliens are all controlling and oh no you found out.

Well, you know, I love Nick Pope on so many different levels because and I may have told you this, and I love Nick Pope's theories, his beliefs, and as you said, he worked at the Ministry of Defense office for a few years, like the UFO desk was his desk,

and a couple of years ago I interviewed him. I've interviewed him many times, and I said, so, tell me about what the overall attitude was Nick in the Ministry of Defense when you were there, because you've mentioned before that you basically were told to do whatever you could to ridicule or debunk UFO reports. And then he suddenly said, yeah, that was called spin and dirty tricks And I said, what what are you talking about? What does

spin in dirty tricks mean? He said, well, we were told from high up that as UFO reports came in, we were to do our very best to basically to debunk them and make them go away. And I said, but that's what the Air Force in our country had Alan Heinek do for twenty years when he was working with Project Blue Book. He was the token scientist who the Air Force was sent around to places and to make the UFO stories go away. So you're saying you did the same thing in England and

they were called spin and dirty tricks. He said yeah. I said, well didn't that bother you? Nick? What kind of a conscience did you have to actually ridicule people? He said, Look, the attitude was we couldn't tell the citizens of our country that there was something operating in our skies that we couldn't identify, we couldn't catch, and we tried, and we couldn't force them down. We had no control over them. We couldn't tell the population that we didn't know how to deal with this, and so the

better route was to just make the stories go away. Like wow, okay, I guess I understand that, even though I don't agree with it, but the fact that you're telling us this now is very important. I think that there is this attitude among many countries that something is going on in the skies around our planet. And we all know this, all of us who've

done serious research into UFOs over the years. It's pretty obvious from early documents, early military documents, that the air force, the air forces of this country and other countries have been baffled by these things that are flying around, coming and going as they wish. That's not a good thing to tell your population. So where I'm heading with that is that I think that people in a position of being able to impart really good information, like Nick Pop,

like Jacques Vallet, like Colonel Chuck Halt. He's another one who only in the last year or two started coming out publicly and saying very few folks in the public think that there's no longer any real interest in UFOs. You've got another thought coming, because there is at least one major agency in the United States that all the other agencies have to report to, and they are seriously

looking into UFO reports. Well, you know, it's like, Wow, this is a retired Air Force colonel who who has been involved with some pretty heavy duty UFO encounters, the Rendelstrom Forrest, one being the Biggie in the nineteen eighties in England. And he's that kind of guy who now says many military people won't talk about this because it would be a career killer. He loves to use that phrase, and I think he's right. There is this

attitude. And I'm going to talk to Jacques about this on stage. I'm going to have him specifically address this as to why airline pilots, why military personnel, why scientists are still reluctant to talk about this. I want to really talk about this. Well, you know, one of the cases where you and I dealt with this, and this is kind of an interesting question

to me to kind of put you on the spot. Actually, is that you know, that's one of the people were going to have And I think it is you know, in the earlier in the day than when you and Jack are speaking at the Congress, but is Robert Powell and this Puerto Rico

case. And in this Puerto Rico case, there was an expert you and I were given the information and who this expert was, what his expertise was so at least I and I'm not sure what you had went through, but I was able to verify this guy was who he was, but he nor his colleagues wanted to go on the record, and I don't think and I don't know if you're still planning on it. I wrote a story on what he had told us. But what I think is interesting is that case.

I would like to hear your thoughts. You never wrote a story on that case, and I'm curious as to why and what you thought of this guy. Did you doubt him or what do you think? No, I didn't necessarily out him, and I guess for the listeners, we should guess. Just give a brief background. We're talking about an alleged I guess you can use the word alleged homeland security video that depicted an unexplained or unknown object that

was flying at very low altitude. I forget how many miles it went, but this was just this was just a couple of years ago, and and the idea was that camera or cameras on board our homeland security vessel was able to track this UFO for a long distance, and the word was that it was going so fast, and then I guess it went into some water and then came out of water. And I believe Mark D'Antonio, mutual friend of ours that we both respect, and he's the photo video analyst chief for Moufon.

I believe that initially, I think Mark had indicated it might have it might have been some kind of a blimp. Do you recall that as part of his Well here's the problem with that though, and this is what Mark felt that it was possibly a balloon balloon, right, yeah, But Mark is not an expert, uh in these systems, like this expert we talked to was. And this guy, uh, you know, was able to detail point by point why he felt this was not a balloon. There's no

way it was balloon and not a bird. And it made a lot of sense, and it was one simple concept was it wouldn't be at the color it was. It wouldn't look like an extremely hot object like this one did. A balloon wouldn't do that. Not only that, and then you know, I've talked with Mark about this and Mark hasn't had the time to do a full analysis to argue his point. And so that's why it's great. Mark has an opinion, but he can finish his analysis and counter the true

expert. Well, and I will tell you another opinion out there well to answer your first question. And I absolutely believe this because I was working on a couple of other stories when when you broke your story, My opinion was I could not have done a better job on reporting the story than you did. I really liked what you did, and I always like what you do because you dig and you get under people's skin to really get information, and

you keep digging until you're satisfied with what you got. And you did it on this case, and I liked it so much that I remember talking to a couple of people here in New York and I said, you know, I don't think I can I can do any better than what Alejandro did, because this is a great story. Well no, but I mean, well hockey very much. No. I two thoughts on that. First of all, you're making me bleshed. Thank you so much for saying that, because

I feel the same way about your work, and that's why. But you're at a completely different level. Best case scenario, let's say, best best case I'm gonna get maybe I could maybe get two hundred thousand four hundred thousand hits on a that would be gangbusters to look at my story. You get millions of people to look at your stories. That's why you're at a different level. That's why you you doing your version of it is taken to another

level. That's one thing. But the second thing that which kids getting towards My question though, okay, is that so it wasn't that you didn't think that this guy was credible? And I guess what were your thoughts? I mean, I found it really interesting that these guys were so guarded with their

with who they were and who they worked for. I was surprised at first that that if indeed it was a homeland security camera that caught this thing, this object, I was surprised that it was released instead of being you know, hidden away like so many official pieces of evidence have been in the past. I actually liked the video a lot. I remember the first couple of

times I looked at it. It's one of those things where the thing is moving so fast, so consistently, and the camera had it tracked all the way. I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. You know. It wasn't like it just appeared for three or four seconds. Like a lot of UFO videos that we see and then they go away or they wink out. This thing was like trucking along and I thought, wow, this not only is it moving really fast, but I was very impressed with how accurately and

clearly the camera captured it. Yeah, and I felt the same. This was one of those because it's a lot. I'll examine it very closely to try to figure out what it is, and then I'll be like, oh, I can't figure this out, so I'll do like you do. I'll send it to people. In this case, you know, a buddy had gotten hold of me and said, hey, we're looking at this. We've got a great group of people, other people I knew, and so I was like, okay, great, because these guys are going to figure it

out, and if they can't then that's a big deal. And of course they couldn't figure it out, and so far it's upheld. And Richard Haynes, you know, likes their work and he also can't figure out what it is. And he of course works for a group called my CAP and is a scientist who's worked for NASA and he handles pilot UFO cases. It's so amazing. You'll get people like Richard Haynes, even Bruce McCabe to a degree. I have many times tried to pin doctor Bruce mccabee for your listeners who

arena aware of him. He is a retired Navy optical physicist, and he's worked on a variety of government programs, classified programs, and he's also analyzed a lot of UFO images and videos. And yet, in the countless times that I've interviewed Bruce, every time, every time I'll ask him, I'll say something like, so, Bruce, at one point, at some point in the conversation, I'll say to him, Bruce, do you believe that

some of these UFOs come from other planets? And he's quiet all of a sudden, he won't come out and say, yes, I think some of them may be. And sometimes that infuriates me. That's funny, you know, because it's it's like he's always kind of on the edge of saying, well, we don't know what this technology is and how these things can do this, and they make all these you know, sudden turns and ninety degree

angle turns. And yet he's the perfect example of a serious, legitimate, credible scientist who won't won't take that final step and say yes, I think that they could be from out of space. And he's retired, so he has nothing to lose at this point. Well, he just wants to be careful. Maybe he doesn't know. I mean, it's funny. My girlfriend, who you know, Karen, and I get in arguments all the time. Even when we were in New York, you know, your hometown,

and we visited the Smithsonian. Well we saw you there. We visited you there at the museum and we went down to the Egyptian part. Yeah, we're arguing because she's like looking, she's into the ancient alien stuff, and she's like, look at this, this has to represent aliens or UFOs and I'm like, no, it doesn't. He says, well, what is it? And I tell her, I don't know what it is. Well,

then it's got to be that. No, it doesn't, just because we don't know what it is, you know, unless we definitely know, then we can't say it could be you know, some guy tripping on something,

dude. So it's kind of funny because we have the same thing and she gets infuriated like you do with Bruce Well, and it's it's like And this is again, this is why I love so much Jacques Vallet's book, where he brings forth the descriptions of things that people have reported through the centuries, and they always report something in the terms that they understand of their of their time. So in the fourteen hundreds, they weren't using the term UFO

because nobody had come up with that term yet. But they'd see something like great aerial ships, okay, great circular a flying shields, oh, very bright circular orbs doing battle with each other in the sky. Now that all does sound very much like modern UFO reports, but they could only describe them in the phrases and in the terms that they knew back then in order to write about them, to report about them. And this is what is so

important to me these days. I've been looking into this for forty years, and I've modified my opinions about UFOs and flying saucers and where they might or might not come from. And the one thing that I've really noticed is that people are consistent. Jay Allen Heinek once said to me, you know, they're not reporting flying pink elephants, because if they were, then that would be strange and we'd have to like really rethink everything. But that's not what

people are reporting. The shapes and the sightings are remarkably consistent and they and they always have been. You know, yeah, the book has spheres and

orbs and troubles. Oh yeah. And you know, you when you talk to like like debunkers or religious debunkers who look at some of the ancient tapestries and paintings, uh Madonna and Child and the Christ and blah blah blah, and you see these these amazing paintings that are real paintings hanging in real places, that depict flying sauces in the sky, shooting beams of light down on the ground and doing amazing things. And religious debunkers or even even non religious

debunkers will automatically say, well, it's just religion or religious symbolism. I hate that, and I hate Well, you're in a unique experience to be frustrated about that, or in a unique place because you've had a similar experience. Yes, And I don't know if we have talked about it on the show before. So but that's one of the things I really wanted you to do, is to describe your citing, because you just kind of described it, and it does fit not only you know, religious experiences, but some

of the paintings, yes, that you see out there. I know. In nineteen seventy five, I was putting together a documentary vinyl record for CBS called UFOs The Credibility Factor, and I was gathering the voices of law enforcement politicians, military personnel, scientists, private citizens, bringing all the voices together to not only describe their own encounters, but to speak together to try and

get the governments to acknowledge that there is something going on about UFOs. So I'm working on gathering all the information in nineteen seventy five and doctor Heinek calls me and he tells me that he's been getting phone calls from law enforcement officials in Lumberton, North Carolina, that for the last two or three nights in a row, people have been reporting some strange object down there that they can't explain, and they called him for help. And he called me and he

said, he said, I don't have any investigators down there. Could you take some time off and go down and see what it is that they're reporting and if you get enough good credible interviews and sketches and drawings or whatever, I'll publish your findings through the Center for UFO Studies. I asked him, I said, what are they reporting? What are they seeing? And to my disappointment, he said, well, they're seeing something that we haven't heard

very much about yet in nineteen seventy five. They're seeing a flying triangle object or a boomerang shaped object. And I went, really, I said, you're not sending me to North Carolina to maybe see a classic flying saucer, because that's what i'd really like to see, Allen, and he said, listen if you don't want to go, and I said, don't complete that sentence. I'm going because you're the last person I want to piss off,

literally, And I said, I'm gone. I'll be there. And within a few hours of my arrival in the Sheriff's department in Lumbonton, North Carolina, in April of nineteen seventy five, the call started coming into the dispatcher and into a into a car we went and staying in touch with other cars from other counties with car radios, and until we all converged in front of this field. The sun had already gone down, the stars were coming out very dark. The only sound that we could all hear in the area.

Were nervous animals nervous about something going on? What nervous animals sound like, you know, like you can tell like a horse, imagine, mister, you know the kind of sound that they make if they're nervous, or even a dark dogs that just won't stop barking. You know, things like that, you know, making sounds for no apparent reason, like okay, okay.

And we were in front of this field and on the other side of the field was a line of trees, and above the tops of the trees there was an alternating white and red light just it would be white, then

red, and white and red. And it was moving across the tops of the trees, and then it stopped when it got to the point where on the other side of the field it was kind of directly opposite where we were standing on our side of the field, and it started moving across the field toward us, and it got closer and closer and closer until it stopped directly above us in the sky. And at that point, with it being so

close, we couldn't hear any engine. It had no engine sound, and it just stopped and was floating there in the sky, and at that point, because it was so close, and because it had white lights up one side and red lights up the other side, and a bigger white light at the apex of it. Because of the lights, we could see the illuminated shape of the triangle. That's how we knew that it was a triangle shaped. And we're just standing there looking up at this thing. Wow, are

you kidding? And I remember thinking combination of well, I I feel pretty safe because I'm surrounded by these men with their six shooters. And then I immediately thought, oh, wait a minute, what am I saying to myself? If this thing is here to eat us, no little six shooter is gonna save us at all. And as all these kinds of thoughts were going through my head, the big bright light at the apex of it suddenly shot a beam down. Beam came right out of it and hit the ground right

where we were standing. And that was like, oh okay, that was not expected. Now. That lasted maybe maybe three seconds at the most, which you know, in that kind of a situation might seem like forever. But the beam went back up into the into the ship. The craft would ever, and the whole thing all the lights on it turned off, and then it became an amber color. And as the amber color of it started shining, the whole thing started moving in about a forty five degree angle.

It just turned in the sky and it slowly started to go away, as if it was saying to us, I'm done with you, guys. I'm going somewhere else to mess around with somebody else. And we, you know, we got We got into the cars and kept in touch with other law enforcement people in the neighboring counties so that we knew which other people were seeing the same thing. And for me, this was good because I could go

and get interviews. And we stopped at different places, and we came upon this this police chief, police chief Gary Moore, I remember his name was, and you could tell he was like a no nonsense kind of Southern sheriff, like don't screw with me, you know, I'll have you for breakfast

kind of attitude. And he was still sitting in his car when we got there, and he knew we were coming, so he didn't mind answering some questions and he said, he said, he was just sitting in his car and all of a sudden, the inside of his car just completely lit up and he looked out the window, just like Richard Dreyfuss did, and close encountered the third kind when he's on the railroad tracks and the UFO is above him, and he just kind of leans over and to look up. And

the police chief said, this thing was just sitting in the sky. It was parked in the sky above me. And I said, well, what did you do? He said. I got out of the car, went to the trunk, pulled out my big official police lantern. I aimed it up at the thing and I blinked it and it blinked back at me. I went, WHOA, that's interesting. Then what did you do? He said, Well, I aimed it again, and I blinked twice, and it blinked twice back at me, and then it left. Okay, I'm

good with that one. Thank you, Thank you for the interview. We found two other police officers who were on patrol together outside a small town, and they said that they had heard through their car radios that this thing was coming in the sky in their direction, and they get out of the car and they saw it coming toward them, and they said that without it missing a beat, instead of just going over their heads. It made a quick

ninety degree angle turn and went off in another direction without stopping. Yeah, you know when you come upon stuff like that and you know it's not a hoax, You know it's not being perpetrated by someone. You know you've seen something and been part of an experience that from that point on many other people would have you. And I know a man named David Marler who wrote a really interesting book a couple of years ago about triangular UFOs in America, and

this UFO from North Carolina was one of the things he investigated. He got a hold of the report that doctor Heinek had published, and I didn't know this at the time, but David told me that his research revealed that the encounter that I was involved with in nineteen seventy five was the very first well documented multiple witness encounter of a triangular shaped UFO. This was years before the Phoenix lights. Oh, I didn't know that. That was amazing to find

out. Well, what's interesting too, is and what made me think of it also was I hadn't thought of it in the sense of Jacques Vallet's book of these Sightings in Antiquity and these old paintings of you know, these beams of like coming down on people. I know, I know, it's amazing, and it's like, you know, how many of these do you have to get hit over the head? Buy how many of these paintings before you realize maybe it's not just religious symbolism. Is what I saw in nineteen seventy

five a product of my non religious symbolic mind playing tricks on me. No, it was something that was actually there in the sky and I was with other people. So you have to get to a point where you have to make rational decisions about what you're seeing or what other people have reported seeing. You know. Again, it's this whole spin and dirty tricks thing that that

Nick Pope was trying to tell me about. You know, if he'd had the chance, or someone else in the United States had the chance, they probably would have turned my encounter into a spin and dirty trick and tried to ridicule me and the other people about what we saw. But it never got to that point, and I was very happy about that. Yep, thank goodness. I mean, that's an incredible sighting. But to change the subject, yeah, because we're running out of time, I wanted to ask you

about one more thing. Luckily this all pertained to the conference and everything, and but the RUA incident, the aerial encounter. Maybe if you can kind of explain it, what you know about it and your thoughts. I didn't do as much investigations as other people. I know that James Fox was a little bit more involved with that. You might actually be better equipped to tell

the listeners what this was all about. This was like an alien encounter that let's see, it took place in It was in Zimbabwe, right, if I recalls like coming back to me now there was it was. It took place at a school and it was a ninety four, like maybe twenty years ago. I guess the students at the school reported seeing something come out of the sky and land near the school, and they reported occupants that were associated with this craft. They saw somebody come out of the craft and and in

fact these beings exchanged or had some kind of interaction with the kids. And I forgot who first made it the who first covered I think but John Mack in a documentary, because John Mack went out and interview kids. Yeah, the Harvard Harvard psychiatrist John mac who who spent a long time investigating occupant stories, you know, close encounters of the third and fourth kind, and you know where people had had claimed to have been like abducted. But I don't

believe that any of the kids were abducted in this case. And years later, I know that James Fox was there and had interviewed some of some of the people, some of the kids who are now grown up, and when they when they tell their story, you can still feel the emotion of what they went through and what they never forgot. It's like you you believe that

they saw something, experience something extraordinary. And the young lady Emily that you're going to have at the Congress, does she speak a good English now or was that? Was that never a problem? Oh? Yeah, never a problem. They speak English, they're just you know, with a kind of a British accent type of thing. But she doesn't. She's Canadian now. In fact, I think maybe she has a Canadian accent. But yeah, that's why I was asking, because, like you described, uh, it's

a it's a great case. And yeah, that's another exciting speaker we're going to have. And yeah, I think that there hasn't been one of these witnesses these projects you're talking about where the kids have been interviewed, Yes, a couple of them. Randall Nickrochsten is doing one. I's been working on it for years and we had him at our conference a few years ago. James Fox is working on a documentary called seven oh one and he's going to

include that case in there. But these documentaries haven't come to fruition yet, and so that's what's cool is that, so nobody's really got to hear from these kids yet. And so we're going to have Emily, who was one of those kids, come to the UFO Congress to speak. She did do a conference, a small conference, this similar kind of thing recently, well a few months ago in Canada, but this will be then the first time in the US, and we are really excited about it. I got to

meet her a few months ago. She kind of like last year, we had the Alligash guys, and we've got a really good documentary kind of thing coming out pretty soon for YouTube for free on the Aligash. But these guys had their experiences and their art change. They were all artists. Well, same with Emily. She's now doing art that she feels is kind of an expression of the messages she received back then, because these kids feel they receive

these telepathic messages. So it's really extraordinary. And I'm so excited for people to see her art work and hear her stories because that is an incredible case. And a lot of people who have read about or seen anything about the case are really enthusiastic about it. You know, you're right. And just because you hear stories where children describe something, or you hear so many more stories where young adults and older adults who now refer to themselves as experiencers.

Okay, it's almost it's like a subculture context of the whole UFO community. So many people now have been coming forward and telling stories of their encounters with some kinds of beings. It's so easy for hardcore skeptics and debunkers to jump on these people. Well, you can't prove what happened, and you know,

you can't even give us a picture. It's just you know, maybe it was just nothing but a bad dream that you had, or you know, the debunkers will always do and say whatever they can to to well spin and dirty tricks there it is, you know, to make people feel ridiculed to the point where they never want to tell the stories anymore. And I think Jacques Vallet is probably one of those scientists who who is totally against the kind of debunking and ridicule, and we're going to get into that on stage

at the Congress. Really exciting. So we're out of time, but thank you so much for coming on and talking about all of this. It's become well, I think it's been really informative. It was kind of like a big UFO Congress advertisement, but we're both so excited about it. I mean, this is some really cool stuff that's going to be happening. And it's kind of funny because I don't know, well, you were kind of like this because you can didn't get a come last year. And it's kind of

funny because it's in a way and it's not to be mean. It's fun when the conference you get people there that people really want to see to where they want to come so bad where it hurts that they're not there. And it's not that I want them to hurt because they're not there. I would rather have them there, just come to the The way to get rid of that pain is just to come to the Congress and last year, there were a lot of people that were like, I wanted to be there so badly

to see bab Lazar. And now this year, you know, already people are posting, oh my gosh, I want to be there so bad. Well, you know what the way to resolve it is to come to the conference, is to somehow get there and book your hotel rooms because you want to be able to stay within fifty miles off the cost because you know, they the nearby conference rooms start to book up, so people want to come.

And you know, one good option for people too is there are rooms that aren't too far away, like maybe twenty minutes for like fifty bucks a night, so you could that's that cheap. You could rent a car and stay there and you know, save money. Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to seeing everybody. Let's let's just remind everybody that we're talking about what Guinness World Records calls the largest, the biggest UFO conference in the world.

Love that and I think I think I think this year or next year maybe really truly one of the biggest because of Jacquesvallet. Absolutely. Yeah, well, thank you so much for being on the show, but thank you so much for thinking of us and for you know, making this happen. I think Race Hobbs who runs kg R A, I saw him post on Facebook thank you Lee, because I think you guys have talked. But yeah, thank you for for making this happen. And of course always left seeing you.

It's going to be so cool to happy. Yes, it's going to be great. I always enjoy seeing you and uh, you're like my long lost brother. Thank you so much to Lee Spiegel for being on the show again. It's always a ton of fun. And thank you, of course to Martin Willis for joining us every week from UFO Podcast to talk about the news. If you want to hear more about Lee, you can go to the UFO Congress website and go to the speaker page and you'll see Jacques Vallet

and Lee and Emily and all of our other amazing speakers. And be sure you know to join our email list if you haven't already. We only send out emails bi weekly. It's an email newsletter. Once in a while we'll send out another email, a special one if we have any news such as you know, Jacques Vallet joining the conference or something like that, so we

don't send it. We don't blitch you with emails. However, it's a good way to keep up to date with Open mind GOFO Radio, with the UFO Report, with our hot stories going on, and with the UFO Congress

because we give you updates on all of that in our newsletter. So you can get the newsletter by going to openminds dot tv and in the upper right hand corner you'll see the join the email list box where you could submit your email address, or you can email us at contact at openminds dot tv and say, hey, add me to your email list and we'll do it. So it's that simple to do that. So please do join the list because that keeps you up to date on everything. And we have pretty much,

i would say ninety nine percent of our speakers listed. There's only one speaker we don't have listed yet, however, you know, and that's what's exciting about this year. It's our twentieth anniversary and it's really shaping up to be a stellar year at the UFO Congress, what with Jacques Vallet and Emily Trim. You know, we have another of other great Chase, Chase Kletzky,

who's just really cool, great researcher John Greenwald and Barbara Lamb. We've got doctor David Jacobs, who of course is a well known and important person in the field. We have doctor Klatt Swanson, who you probably haven't heard of, although those of you who have listened to my show for a long time. He was one of my, if not the first interview I did, one of my very first one I had when this used to be called the UFO think Tank, before the existence of Open Minds. So some of you

may be familiar with him. If you're not, you will be pleasantly surprised with his talk. He's a theoretical physicist. He he worked at MIT. I think he even got a degree there. But really cool guy, some really amazing stuff talking about the technology, the science of UFO propulsion and how it ties into other paranormal phenomena. So you know, could even I think he kind of explains explain you know, ghosts or psychic abilities and stuff like

this. Really cool stuff. Doctor Ron Westrom a psychologist in sociology or I'm mean a former professor of sociology who talks about how he examines how in the past there have been scientific phenomena or phenomena, natural phenomena, or a real phenomena that had occurred that people didn't believe were real, and what it took for them to and the scientific community to demonstrate that this was a real phenomena. And he's gonna parallel that to the UFO field and to show how we're

going through a similar sort of process. So that's really interesting. Just a lot of really really cool stuff. And we'll highlight more of these speakers, Nick Pope, We're gonna have We're gonna highlight more of these speakers in the emails as time goes by, but you'll be able to see that in the speaker list. So yeah, but one speaker is listed. And like I said, we've had some huge announcements with the speakers that we're having, and

this last speaker once we have it all confirmed and worked out. We just don't list people until we have it all confirmed and worked out. It's going to be another doozy. You're going to be extremely excited about it, like I am, so another doozy, another really really cool speaker. So this is going to be a stollar year. So be sure to sign up.

Let us know if you need anything. You can email just so you know, you can contact us by telephone, but to be completely honest, we're very busy and we might not answer the phone because there's only a couple of us here, and of course I'm writing stories, I'm doing the radio show, all this other stuff, so often I'll have to let it go to voicemail and I'll get back with you, and I will get back with you. However, we can answer email us a little more quickly, so if

you email us that would be preferable to calling. But still call if you need to, No problem anyway. Thank you to everybody who helped out with the show. Lise Spiegel was awesome as usual. Also what was awesome as usual was the opening end closed music provided by Caleb Hanks. He's awesome. You could get a link to his site, the cook Chronicles at the open Minds UFO radio page on openminds dot tv. And also thank you to you all. That's it's just a absolute pleasure to meet you all like I do

occasionally at these conferences. It's great to meet you at the UFO Congress. So hopefully you can make it, but I hope you all do. Have a wonderful, wonderful holiday and a great dinner. And I hope you know, I know, family can be annoying, there can be those those characters. Hopefully you have a great family where you guys really enjoy each other and

it's wonderful. But practice some patience, be patient, and I hope that everybody gets along and everybody has a wonderful time and you're and uh, you know, everybody puts aside some of the annoying quirks that are they don't want to rib you or bike you about when are you gonna get married, when are you gonna have a kid. It's like mom, lay off, you know, I know how it goes. But hopefully you guys have a great holiday, and we will talk to you, and we won't have a show

obviously because to the holiday next week. I'll try to make one happen. I really will, but at worst case scenario, we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks. Audio smooth chachos, your motionless sound, the glass array