Hello, and welcome to open my UFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with my good friend Martin Lumberjack Willis. You never know what you've got to say, And I just told him I'm actually for the listening audience wondering. No, it's not just because I live in Maine. But I'm on the road today and I try to find Wi Fi and I did find it at a Low's Lumber and all that, and I'm sitting on a pile lumber right outside the door so I can get a Wi
Fi signal. That's so funny. Thank you, Jack, thank you for going to such great efforts. And be careful. Yes I know I might buy something. Yeah, so all the way with a lumber. Yeah, that's the scary part. So our show today, So our guest today is
Lee's Beegele. Exciting and exciting for me because it's always fun to talk to him, and of course when we have him on, it means we're usually catching up onto UFO stuff, which is what we're doing, but we're also catching up on Hit, the super exciting project he's currently working on, which is this documentary with James Fox, and it doesn't even have a title. We'll talk about some of the titles that they've used or one of the big titles they used in the past and why, but how the scope of this
project has greatly increased since that time. So yeah, very exciting it is. Yeah, and when you have the budget that they've had to work with, they can just do things right and take their time in. You know, James has made, you know, two of the greatest films I think, and you follow Gee, and I'm sure this is going to be this is supposed to surpass that. So I'm really excited to see it myself. Yeah, you know, and that would be saying something because, like you
said, he's made two of the best. But and we'll hear from Lee today, it sounds like they are on track to do something even better. Yeah, amazing, Yeah, cool and stuff. I'm sure I'm hoping he teases at least the opening, the opening of that movie. He does. He is very teasy in the interview. Yeah, he's a teaser, that
guy. I know what a UFO news, that's what we're here to talk to at During the first segment of the show, what you got for me there, buddy, Well, I'm gonna you know, usually I read stories and things like that, but actually I'd like to report on I was this weekend. Just got back late last night early morning from the well it's right across from Pennsylvania. Right right next to Philly is cherry Hill, New Jersey,
at the Muffon Symposium. So I was there for the event. The the issue was, I went, you know, for for two reasons. First of all, to see and talk. They had this one on one with Louis Alizondo, like a dinner you could actually buy a ticket for. And also he spoke, so I went for that. And also I went to see Selm Acidic, one of the Ariel School students, wonderful gl So I I went for those reasons. Now, I got to tell you, going south from I left Boston at ten am and my GPS said I would
arrive in Cherry Hill at two thirty pm. So as up driving, it gets longer and longer and longer. Then it got to seven o'clock and oh no, I was worried I was going to miss Louis Alzondo, and I sure did. I didn't get there till ten thirty ten because there was thirty Yes, I missed everything there was the rain, the rain, in the traffic. It was just sitting. I have, you know, a couple of videos of me just sitting, you know, at the George Washington Bridge,
just parked there for like two hours. Oh my god, so eight hours longer than you expected. Yeah, so, I you know, I was really discouraged by that, but I did luckily. I had a wonderful conversation and with Lewis Alazundo just in the hallway, you know, in the hotel. We just talked, and you know, I broke the ice. Said, you know, I'm a friend of Alejandro Rojas. He's on my show, him on his show, and he goes, oh that guy, he says, I had lunch with him. He said, what a great
guy. He really thinks the world of you, thinks a lot of you. So anyway, so he and I had this wonderful conversation. It was about thirty minutes, maybe a little bit longer or so, but mostly about antiques. We never talked to UFOs the entire time. He's a he's an avid collector, and I really into a lot of the things that he collects. So and so anyway, it was a great conversation. But I was
saving all my questions for him. You and I spoke about questions for that night, the one on one you know situation, and uh then I saw him outside, you know, quite a bit with the phone, talking on the phone and hanging up, calling someone else and calling a calling. He didn't look he looked kind of uneasy, And next thing you know, he was gone. He had to leave for an emergency. So that event of the one on one, you know, the dinner one on one conversation,
has never happened. So never got to ask him those questions. What a bummer? Why I hope everything's okay? Like he didn't have any kind of family issue. Yeah, I know, no one really had any details about it that they would share anyway. So and then of course you had the conspiracy people talking, you know in the hallway, saying oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, the government pulled him away, didn't wanted anyone to get too close. Now I didn't get to see his talk. Some people
say that there wasn't really too much revealed in particular. Most people said that, but you know, there was other opinions, as someone else, Randy Nickerson, who you know very well. You know, I thought that this whole situation was groundbreaking, and he was very optimistic by you know, the whole situation with Alazando being there at the move On symposium and all that. So so that was good. I've heard a little bit of feedback like that
as well, and I'm I'm just really curious. I can't wait to see the talk. I wasn't able to. Yeah, I was going to watch the live stream, but I couldn't. And I wonder, because I don't know, this is a historic situation, especially for our field, so it's almost like, you know, him speaking in person, like I said, it's historic for his field. It's almost like anything he says is really important. So I wonder. I just it makes me curious. I think some
people had some huge expectations that probably I met. But yeah, I'm so curious to hear his talk. Yeah, I think a lot of it had to do with expectations. They thought, you know, something was going to be revealed that no one else would hear, or something along those lines, you know our you know, something like something that he had not already spoken about would be spoken about for the first time. And I suppose none of
that happened. I didn't see it or I didn't hear much about it otherwise other than what I had mentioned already, because I know, I don't know if you heard much about it. The Coast to Coast episode he did recently with George Knapp was pretty good and he did reveal a few things there. And I think that, you know, for these sort of things like what we'll do is at the Congresses, have somebody interview him, and that probably
would have been a good idea. He probably would have been he would have revealed more, like you know, the interviewer would have been able to ask some more pointed questions and maybe coax him into sharing some more juicy stuff. Uh huh. Speaking of juicy stuff i'd like to talk about I do have It's actually on my website podcast UFO dot com, if I can do a
little plog of that. But I also I have a video interview of that I did at that location with Selmacidek and Randy Nickerson and the first interview I did with her. You know, I had a lot of criticism about certain things, or you know, and some of it was good criticism. Well, you had technical criticisms, didn't you, Yes, I did terrible But anyway, this interview. I had my HD camera I all set up and it's it's really great. It's on YouTube and as well you can see it
on my website. But I'm telling you, she is just an extraordinary She just articulates the event so well. And so the question that someone said, hey, she didn't have telepathic any telepathic communication and other people did, don't you think that's a really good question to ask her? So I did. I asked her that question, why do you think you didn't have it?
And she kind of revealed that maybe there's something she doesn't know about that maybe it was really hard for her to break her her gaze, the eye lock that she had with this creature, and she said it was exhausting and it was really hard for her to do that. But once she did, you know, she kind of got a way to go check on her brother and sister to see if they were okay. But she describes the moment that this thing was with this encounter was happening with the being and it's really fascinating.
So and she is she's kind of afraid to do any regression hypnotherapy right now, but she may someday. Did you make it to her talk. I
did, yes, And I got to tell you it was good. But I get to tell you I like the interview I did with her much better, Okay, and just because I think more was revealed and and she was, you know, she was a little bit nervous, and she was you know, reading from uh from from notes, and just to have her she's such a great speaker too when she speaks naturally, and I just thought it
was a much better, you know, to have a natural interview. Yeah, you know what, usually interviews are, especially with people who are not normally speakers, who who are witnesses or have something really interesting to say, normally, it is better to have someone interview them. Plus it's helpful to know that, you know, you feel that your interview got more infro because some people can just go to your YouTube and watch that. But the exception
to the rule was Emily Trim, another one of the witnesses. She actually went up and did her own thing and read from notes, and she was great. She did a great job. Stood out to me more than any other event that whole, that whole u UFO Congress. I mean, I mean she was emotional, but I mean she's got a standing ovation I remember that whole thing. That was just amazing. That was a really cool You're right, I forgot. I forgot she did she was reading, Yeah,
but then she she totally was. It was so heartfelt. It was just amazing. Yeah, that was cool something that was like one of the best moments at the Congress. But awesome. That's really good to hear because that was the other person I was really interested in hearing with her because the Rua kids is you know, and I guess we should bring people up to speed. What we're talking about is this case that happened in Rua, South Africa
is Zimbabwe actually and the aerial school. So there were these kids, they were very young. Do you remember their age? Well, she was eleven. There were younger ones than her, there were older ones than her, and I don't know exactly how many grades were at that particular school. There's two hundred and thirty students at the school, and about sixty two of them did drawings. So they say a lot of times that there was only sixty
two witnesses, but it's probably more than that. Randy was saying, it's probably more than that. It's just that the ones that actually were interviewed and did the drawings that count was sixty too. And what these kids say they saw was this craft land near the school. They watched it, most of them. I don't know if all of them, but I think most of them report some sort of creature coming out of it and looking at him,
and maybe multiple creatures. It's no one can That's the kind of the controversy. Some saw two, some thought they saw more. She remembers one, but she thinks if there was more, they looked alike, you know, very much alike. And do you want me to just describe how she described Yeah, okay, so she said. First of all, the unusual thing was it had a pigment, a skin color pigment that she said she had
never could never imagine or had never seen anything like it. It was almost, like she said in the first interview I did with her, was almost like a porcelain had large, a large head. It was very small in stature, maybe four feet, a very large head, and black eyes. And and then it was wearing what looked like a scuba suit. She said
it might have been shiny. It just may have been the way the light was hitting at the sunlight was hitting it but so she said, the easiest way to describe it was like a skin divers you know, rubber suit. And also but when she said that, she she was only four feet from it her in particular, and when she locked gaze with it, you know, it was just really it really just the fact that it really drained her.
And she said she never remembers ever being more exhausted that day after that the day after that happened in her and in her entire life, she had
never been that tired. Wow. Yeah, really interesting case. And and it also it came to fame because John Mack, Harvard professor who into this sort of thing, you know, as part of a documentary, was sent out there to investigate, and this was part of the investigation and these children, their testimony was recorded and it was phenomenal and yeah, really interesting case,
very consistent. And now the really interesting thing about the film that Randy Nickerson is doing the Ariel phenomenon, is that now it goes, you know, twenty years later or I think it's about Yeah, it was nineteen ninety four, so twenty four years later. But you know, it's taken ten years to make this film. So it depends on what stages he interviews people,
but it has shaped all of their lives. Everyone that he interviews, it has actually changed, you know, some of them has changed greatly and some of them, some of them took like a possible like demon or devil. They had that kind of feeling about it. But I think, you know, one of the most interesting things of that case is that multiple children at the time said that, you know, we it was telling us we had to take care of our planet. Yeah, you know, And and
they had never really thought those thoughts before. And another curious thing is they said, there's no one ever saw any TV with any UFO or any aliens that they had no idea what they were seeing. It was fresh. They had absolutely no idea what it was they were looking at. Yeah, really cool stuff. So I guess a couple of other things because it's been a little bit, I guess since I've done a show. The last one was Danton Friedman at Roswell. But oh, and I do want to add more
just to clarify. You know, you brought up a good point that this whole thing is part of. And even Emily Trim is Randall Nickerson's film. He's working on a film that'll hopefully be out a documentary and then not two distant future, but it also so we'll be part of this project with James Fox at Lee's working on. We don't talk about that in the interview, but they have talked about that in the past, so that's exciting. There's some clips from there added in and you know a few things like that,
right, So cool stuff. I guess what I wanted to mention was the blue Book television show. So I was at Comic Con for those who may not know, and I've got a lot of really cool stuff from Comic Con and i'll kind of give you guys an outline of that that you should go check out. But one of the really cool things that I did there was, and I was there for Dent of Geek doing a bunch of stuff, was went to the blue Book activation. So I don't know why they call
exhibits activations there, but they do. But this was this cool exhibit and it didn't look like much from outside. It was kind of these three kind of shipping containers with Project blue Book written on it. And I've got a picture in my Dent of Geek story and I've post on my social media this tarp covering what looks like a UFO and you go through and it was really
really cool. So it's for this new TV show Blue Book that's coming out on the History Channel that is really about the Blue Book cases and it stars the String character is playing portraying doctor Heinek, who was a professor, an astronomer and the consultant to the Blue Book from the forty seven to sixty nine on UFOs began as a skeptic and it as someone who thinks this is a real phenomena. I wrote a story about kind of his background and everything on
Den of Geek you could check out too. But the activation was really cool, and they what you would do. You walk into the first part and they debrief you on what Blue Book was and everything, and they asked you how much you knew, and they also ask have you seen a UFO. To my surprise, I was they give you one on one with someone when you first walk in and sit down. But I was listening to the people
around because you know, that was an interesting question. And sure enough, practically everybody around me, including one of my buddies from Den of Geek, said yeah, I've seen a sighting and of course I said yes too, because I have had a sighting. So they asked you to describe it, and they use the actual report form. I did Facebook live on this too,
so people can see this on my Facebook. My whole visit through there, but they use the form that they used in Blue Book and they tell you, Okay, we're going to give you a sketch of your sighting once you're done. So you go through this whole activation, which is cool. There they do some audio from the show. The show sounds great, it sounds very well produced. And the cases that they're covering are real Blue Book cases. Some we know Lubbock Lights, the Flatwoods Monster. Another one is
the Gorman Dogfight, which is this really cool situation. I'm gonna write about this really cool sighting where essentially this guy in a P fifty one Mustang and like really early late forties gotten a kind of a dogfight with the UFO and then you know, you go through, you send a message to space through and you really do you get a fashion one and they're really sending it to space. I warned the aliens personally to stay away that humans are scary.
Yeah, you know they I think they're kind of scary, don't you. And you say yeah, and I'm just hope you said they taste awful too, right, No, I but I did mention, you know, about the human diet. I did mention that I said, many of them eat the flesh of other earthlings. Isn't that gross? And that's what I actually put that on. Yeah, yeah, because like to me that that's pretty bad. And hopefully the aliens will be the same way and be like,
oh my gosh, those barbarians, they're they're animals. Let's stay away from there, depending on what they eat, you know. Yeah, otherwise again, I don't want them to think humans sound delicious. But yeah, you can see my sighting on Open Minds dot tv. I posted the picture that they drew for me and a little history on that siding that I had. But I'm really looking forward to this TV show. In fact, Lee and I speak about it about it in this interview. Yeah. Yeah, I
saw his email he sent out to everyone all excited about it. Yep. So I also got the interview Neil deGrasse Tyson not about UFOs, about the new series of Cosmos coming up. But it was really funny. People get so frustrated and I posted this comment. I don't know if you saw this about science, and it was really popular, what was it? And essentially it was in reply because people were really upset. You know, some people, Oh, Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't believe in UFOs, Why are you promoting
him? He believes this or he says that, And of course what he believes and says is based on science. And so I essentially said, just to be clear everyone, I am a man of science. And if oh I did see that, yes, yes, science offends you, then I can't There's nothing I can do for you, essentially, if you're offended by the natural world that we live in, because there's a lot of denial about what about science. You know, when majority of scientists are telling you something.
These are not people who are friends or who are colluding or work for the same people. Scientists are spread throughout the world. They compete with each other. They they to check each other's work. And I mean it's a very open process and it's supposed to be open to change, and if something is proven wrong or right exactly that's a great point. So I don't know, if you're curious, I subscribe to science. So just to clarify with people, I'm not a science basher or I do not believe science is some
big conspiracy, right, But that's weird. But anybody could check out that interview. It was still a lot of fun and I don't know otherwise for UFO news, Oh, there was one other piece of news George knaplet out which was essentially, oh yes, a document for Harry Reid arguing to get kind of more secrecy for their UFO program and to keep it going on. He released that. Now we've already seen bits of this document or had it
described in other arts articles. But another thing that To the Stars did is they announced that they're building a lap like to examine materials, including these alleged
UFO materials day down. So really interesting stuff. So you can find more about that at to the Stars and of course at KLAS we're George knappwrit's well, you know a lot of people have been questioning, you know, why do they need money, and you know, blah blah blah, And here's here's a good here's a good exhibit of what they're they're actually doing something with funds. Yeah, so all right, well we're out of time. Thank you, so much for being on the show again this morning. You got
always fun and thanks for taking the time. I hope you didn't get any splinters anywhere. No, I almost got hauled away a couple of times. I'm sure you heard it. I didn't do that, all right, great, thanks, Well, let's get to our interview with mister Lee Spiegel right after this break. Welcome back to Open Mind UFO Radio. If you hear a little bit of excitement in my voice, it's because I am here with Lee speak Old. Well, Wow, what an intro. I didn't know
that the mere mention of my name gets you all shivery. Yeah, Oh you kidding. I get so excited. I'm like, that's my buddy, Lee. Well, I'm I'm always happy to be with you on the radio in person. You're you're one of my favorite people in the field, and I love what you're doing now, all the all the stories you've been coming up with. I'm I'm very proud to know you. You're doing a great job. Well did oh my friend on the radio? Whoa? And in fact, you know I did a talk recently and you were in it.
It turned out I think it was Spilberg. Oh, Roswell yeah, at Roswell, I did my Spilberg talk, and of course I have that video with you in it, and it's fun because you're talking about your interactions with Steven Spielberg when he offered to help you all with your un initiative back in the seventies, and you know, you kind of chuckle along the way. And it was fun because when I showed that video, people were chuckling along with you. So just so you know, were were they making fun of
me? No, they were laughing with you, not at you. I don't think so. But that was a lot of fun. But you're always working on exciting things. You know, we've probably shared this last time. You no longer are writing with the Huffington Post, but you are now working on something that is equally, if not more exciting, with an equally well with a more exciting even though I love Ariana isn't even at the Huffington Post and you know your old editor back. But yes, now you're working with
some really cool people. So you're working on James Fox's new documentary. Yes I am. I am co producing with James a new documentary. Film is going to be like the third installment of what I like to call his UFO trilogy or series, which began with the first film, Out of the Blue, and that was followed by I Know What I Saw, and then we're
going to bring the third one to the public. Hopefully it'll be ready by the end of this year or early next year, right about the same time when there's going to be a new History Channel series about Project Bluebook that's starting to get some previews out there, which I'm a little excited about. M M me too, so that I think everybody's curious about what this will be
about. Of course, the original premise and their original title was seven oh one, based off of, you know, the seven hundred and one unsolved Blue Book cases. Speaking of Blue Book, however, I think you know, as many of us researchers know, seven oh one was kind of an arbitrary number. None of us can even figure out why they threw that number out. Yeah, but it's about right, you know, six hundred or so unknown so that blue Book had. But that's These aren't just blue bookcases,
or are they even a minority of Blue bookcases. You're covering a lot of stuff now, right were. We're covering stuff that goes back at least back to the nineteen forties and moving all the way up through the nineties and into the present day, and not just American UFO accounts, but we're going into national with this thing. And because this so much has been happening that we've been able to get hold of, we've got some interviews with people from
literally around the world that are going to just take your breath away. It really is amazing. I'm so proud to be working with James Fox because he has a real keen sense of knowing what he wants to see as a final product of the final vision. And we have been interviewing people, getting exclusive interviews with folks who have been in the news, and the things that they have told us is pretty startling that you haven't heard from them saying these same
kinds of things in the past. And I'm trying not to give give too much away, but i will say that, as you know, going back to the nineteen forties, there's always been a contradiction between what the public has been told about UFOs and what has been quietly officially determined going on behind closed doors, and that's what we're kind of aiming at. We're very concerned about
you know, who's who's in control of what's really going on here? And and we think that it's not so much that that the government has been either lying or just covering up or all the conspiracies. We are more concerned about how the nations of the world haven't really come clean about UFOs because of the possibility that they just don't know the answers. And a lot of people don't want to hear that, you know, people want to want, want want
to get you hear all people constantly claiming why haven't everybody come clean? Why hasn't there been disclosure? Why haven't UFOs landed on the White House lawn or in front of the Kremlin? What's wrong? Why is it too much secrecy? Well, you know, from what we are researching and uncovering, there
are plenty of reasons for secrecy. And I'm of the mind now I didn't used to be, but now I can kind of understand why not all of the information has been leaked or given to the public and I and I only know this now from the people we've been talking to, right and and and and this has really opened up my eyes to what's kind of going on. I mean, one one very highly placed politician, and I will not mention his name because it'll be kind of a surprise when people see him in our
documentary. But he said to us, you know, most, if not all, presidents are not in the loop about what's really going on about UFOs. When they're elected, they are elected to be basically the executives or the executors of the country deal with the business of the country and the business of relationships with other countries and all of that. But the presidents apparently don't know, or they don't have a need to know, They don't have a high
enough security clearance to know what's really happening with UFOs. And in fact, i'll even give you this bit. We're going to show video because we didn't do the interview ourselves. This was done several years ago of Bill Clinton when he was on stage at a presentation in Hong Kong. I believe Oh I love that video. Yeah, it's really something. And someone asked him from the audience, someone said, what can you tell us about Area fifty one
or what really happened at Roswell? And Clinton didn't make fun of it like he did a year or two ago on a Jimmy Kimmel Show. He actually said, and you can just look at the video and he says, you know, I wouldn't be the first president whose staff or underlings kept information from him and just waited me out until I was out of office and then they started up again with the next guy to come into office. What a statement.
I think that is an important statement and that concept as well, that information is kept from high level people in the government, sometimes even to protect them, you know, as far as you know, deniability goes that that they are kept in the dark so that they if something should happen, they can say I didn't know, and honestly reply, I didn't know because they weren't told. And sometimes it's in the spirit of protection that that information is
not given to them. But you know, it's funny because being journalists, it's with you things are always much more complicated than they appear to be on the surface, right And and I don't know if you feel this way as well, but when you start to dig and figure out what's going on, it's so complicated and difficult, and there's so many difficult decisions that have to be made that often it feels like and I feel like this that I'm going to cover what I can, I'm going to try to share whatever I can
get cleared to be shared, and thank goodness, I'm not the one making the decisions. And you've become less judgmental because it's like, these are really difficult decisions to make, right. And you know, part of this picture that can be very frustrating is when you consider not just the hard NOS skeptics, but the debunkers who continually ongoing maintain that there's nothing there that should be
looked at, there's nothing worthy of any scientific investigation. The people who are making these reports are either mistaking planetary objects or whether inversions or manifestations, and people are just they're just not really getting the idea that there can't possibly be
any visitation from Afar happening to planet Earth. And it's important to them because they they know they're getting away with it because all they have to do is say, well, where's the evidence, Show me something, show me a ship, show me, show me a creature, show me you know anything, And they know that that's a very difficult thing to come up with, and then they maintain, well, you can't really keep something like this secret.
Well, you can. Our friend Stan Friedman, the nuclear physicist, love loves to tell people that there were thousands of people involved with the with the creation of like the first atomic bombs, and everybody was sworn to secrecy, which is why it was kept secret, and nobody leaked out that information before we used the atomic bombs. So yeah, you can keep something secret
if if you do it the right way. You know, and we have a great example of that in this Pentagon program that Louise Elizondo worked for. And I think it's the perfect example because this is kind of the untold story, or at least the less of a deal is made about this. We didn't know you and I have interviewed people who were part of BASS of Bigelow. We knew about BASS. Not even very many people knew Bigelow had this
group BASS that was looking into the paranormal. I worked with and interviewed people were very close even friends with some of these people who were in the know or who were even contracted to do this, and we had no clue. Even people who were possibly or probably even received funding from BASS. Well I know that did rec funding from BATHS and we're working on these projects. They
didn't even know. It's a perfect example that this group was this UFO project was going on and interacting with all of us, and we had no clue that this government UFO thing was going on. Yeah, it's like you and I both know very well. Chuck Halled, for example, retired Air Force I forget what his final rank was, but he was one of the people,
one of the eye witnesses. He was very involved with the bent Waters, England UFO event of was it nineteen eighty or was it eighty nine, I forget the date off hand, but there was like a series of events at that Dual Air Force base in the United Kingdom where many military eye witnesses had close encounters with some amazing things going on in and out of the woods
in the area, and Chuck called was one of them. And he now has said that there was so much going on there that now, except for any people, any people in the public who think that who believes that there's nothing to UFOs, that the United States or other governments are not studying this
stuff at all, you're completely naive to think that, he says. He says, of course, there is behind the scenes ongoing research and investigation happening and part of the problem is that there's so many little compartmentalized divisions that are looking into different aspects of it that one hand doesn't know what the other hand is looking into. And that's part of the problem. It's a much bigger thing than people realize. It's you know, it's that kind of thing.
I keep coming back to the final speech that Dwight eisenh made his his last speech in office, when he was saying goodbye to the presidency and to the public, and he and he warned everybody to be aware of the military industrial complex. You know, it's a famous quote, and and he knew what he was talking about. And now we see that really the military is so much more powerful than it ever used to be, and it's hard to get
around because they don't want to share information with other countries. Why should they. Everybody wants to be the best, everybody wants to have the best stealth bombers. Well, why don't need stealth bombers because we don't trust anybody and they don't trust us. That's the problem. People people say, well, why why won't the why want the why won't et visitors come down and make friends with us? Well, why should they. I mean, there must
be. If they're out there, they must be smart, smart enough to know what kind of people we are, and why would they want to invite us to be part of their collective club or their their federation. All we are is a warm wongering species down there. You know, they don't want
to play with us. And you know, another story that I think is really important that you touched on here just now, is that you're including is this idea what you said Pry earlier, is that you know there is much more going on behind the scenes than people realize in that Publicly, the government the military is like, oh, UFOs are silly, we don't care about
any of that stuff. But behind the scenes there are debates and struggles and we know that more about that, And like you said, you've got interviews that are going to demonstrate this as well. This has not been Charles hat is a good example, but this has not been a question that has been definitively answered. Behind the scenes. There's still movement and debate and even dollars being spent on all this. Oh yeah, and dollars that may or may
not be out of our tax dollars. The whole black budget of just the United States government. Who knows how much money they're spending. I mean the whole Pentagon thing that you talked about, was it a twenty two million dollars that was initially raised. I mean that's not a lot of money to spend on several year study of UFOs. I mean, most people know that the government spends money like they could spend like a million dollars on a toilet seat,
you know, and and not think anything about it. So it's where the money goes, it's where the money came from. And once they learn different things, how do they decide what, if anything, they want to give out to the public to demonstrate transparency in the government. Everybody talks about why isn't the government being transparent? The problem I see here is people have
to start realizing it's not just the American government that's involved with this. We're talking about most countries around the world have been inundated with UFOs for decades. And what leader of any country on Earth is willing to make a statement to tell his or her citizens that there are things that are flying around in our skies and they're able to I mean with flight characteristics that clearly demonstrate some technology
that's light years in advance of any country on Earth. They have the ability to accelerate from a standstill, they can go out of sight in the blink of an eye. They can do right angle turns at high speed, and all of this without any visible means of propulsion or wings, or air disturbance or noise. We don't have anything like that. So why would any leader want to say to the populations of their countries, Yes, there are things
in the atmosphere above our country. We can't touch them. We've sent jets up to intercept them, we can't get really close to them. They out maneuver everything we have. We realize that we're supposed to protect the airspace above our country and to protect you, our citizens, but we're sorry, we don't have an explanation for this, and so we can't tell you what we think they might be. That's tough. I mean, that's a tough decision that leaders have to make. I mean, really, this is far more
complex and complicated than people think. Yeah, yeah, well, and yeah it is. It's just far more complicated. And that's what's wonderful about what James Fox does. I mean, he's got some of the best documentaries out
there with I Know What I Saw and Out of the Blue. Yeah, and that's what's exciting about what you all are doing with this documentary because you're tackling, you know, this complicated world and you are penetrating these kind of government firewalls really and in order to get interviews and information out to the public that in a concise and digestible way. And I say all this having not seen a documentary, but knowing your work and James's work and some of who
you've talked to, So it's actually it's very, very exciting. And people were excited with seven oh one, but this is much more exciting than the scope of seven oh one. Uh. This is for the here and then now in today's world, and I almost like kind of a stat check here we are with UFOs today. Yeah, and I will tease you with something. James would probably slap me on the wrist, but he's on his way to China right now, so he can't reach out and hit me. He's
too busy to listen to the podcast. So will I will give you this but without more details. You mentioned before that I had put together this presentation at the United Nations in nineteen seventy eight, which featured speakers. This is something that is easy to find on the Internet of Jay Allen, Heinek, Jacques Vallet, Stanton Friedman, Army Lieutenant Colonel Larry Coyne, who was the commander of a four man helicopter crew who almost had a near collision with the
UFO over Ohio in nineteen seventy three. That was one of the cases that really flipped me around and got me really interested in this whole subject because that was such a credible case and it's held up over all of these years because of who these men were and what they experienced. And I was able to get Colonel Coin to come to the United Nations and to tell his story.
You got a minute to make your point, just so you know, Okay, what I'm saying is people are going to see in this documentary we are finally going to show some footage from that United Nations presentation. People and including myself, have been looking for this footage for forty years and we have found it, which is so exciting because Open Minds to plug us dot TV, we're so far the only ones with footage. But it's super sixteen or sixteen
millimeter. It's kind of funky. It's got that stranger things kind of vibe that you're talking about professionally shot stuff. Oh oh yeah. What Open Minds had was about a minute and fifteen of only some visual excerpts and no sound. Right, what we've got is the real thing. WHOA the real deal Holy Field And I'm so excited to even present small. We've got to go to break. Okay, so thank you. Good drop going into the break.
So you're listening to Open Mind gfol Rady and we're talking to Lisa Spiagon. We'll be right back after this break. Welcome back to Open Mind UFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and we are here with one of my best friends in the world, Lee Spiegel, also one of my favorite UFO writers researchers. Just UFO dudes, UFO dude. I like that. I should put that up. I should put that on a T shirt and have it say I'm a UFO dude. Yeah, that would be pretty
cool. Well, thank you for that. You're and you know you're one of my all time favorite people in or out of the UFO world. Oh well, thank you very much. So this is fun. So your friends with Jacques Vallet, I am, and you speak to him occasionally, And I guess he's going to be interviewed in the documentary. Oh yes, we we've already done our interview with that, with Jacques and and and and he
was very gracious, uh to uh to agree to the interview. He had a lot of things to say that I think he's been thinking about for many years because he he doesn't do very many interviews or or even show up at many UFO conferences or symposia, and so he wanted to to talk about some things that that go back historically for him decades. And we were happy to talk with him. And and again, like like many of the people in our program, he will will be saying some things that are pretty startling,
as are most of the people that are in our show. Uh, it's amazing. James Fox and I will be sitting there at the editing screen and we'll be going over all the interviews that we've done so far, and and no matter how many times we look at these things over and over again, we're still amazed at what we're hearing from these people. It's like, you know, pinch me, pinch me, this can't be real stuff, but
it is real stuff. And that's why I got involved with this presentation, because because it's James Fox and I respect and I admire him, and when he asked me to come on board to be part of this presentation, I said, yes, of course, let's work it out. And now we've been working on this together for just over a year, so yeah, it's it's a great experience for me because I can see the light at the end
of the tunnel. I can see we both have the vision of what this is going to look like when it's all done, all edited, and we're very happy with how it's moving along right now. Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's kind of fun because Jacques has has come up, at least for me more frequently. I think he's a very important figure, and especially with Jail and Heine getting so much more attention these days, and Jacques of course
being his kind of protege. How old is Jacques now? I think he's seventy nine, really, yeah, and he is held up so well. Oh yes, yeah, he's really amazing. I was just talking to him the other day and I said, how are you feeling? He said, well, okay, and I said, well, no, I don't want to hear okay, I always want you to tell me you're feeling excellent, he said, He said, okay, I'm feeling excellent today. I mean he's really just physically he seems to be doing very well, and he's got
a lot of energy and spunk. And the reason I say that is because you know, he's commented on a couple of things lately and in particular, and I do want to talk about this blue Book. So this new movie's coming out. Of course, you knew Heinik and you also you know in this un thing you worked with him and many other things. You've interviewed him, you and Jacques and he went to go visit Spilberg in that incident that
I mentioned earlier, You're Spielberg encounter. But and of course, if people want to see Lee talking about this, you can go to our open Mind YouTube and we have a great YouTube where Lee kind of talks about that whole encounter. But this Project blue Book, I think this is really exciting that you know, Heinich is being a central character. And I wrote this in my story on Den of Geek about Project blue Book. Is it feels like
something's right in the universe. When what I think is kind of the first to me real major follow up to the X File Fame is this UFO project by History that has Heinech and real blue book files. Of course they're going to dramatize things and everything. But having seen the recent trailer, and I know you've been paying attention to this upcoming show, what do you think.
I think that it's okay. You know, it's not being presented as a documentary, it's being presented as a drama series, and so I already kind of figure that libertys will be taken to increase the drama of it. I mean, I've always said when it comes to UFO things, you don't have to do that. You don't have to over enhance the drama because by its very nature, a lot of UFO stories are very dramatic. You don't have
to add any any extras to it. And from what I've seen in the trailer, I have the feeling that they're going to go overboard a little bit. But I think that what will happen is the viewers will really be attracted to it because it looks like the production values are pretty high. The fact that is being brought to us by Robert Zamechis, who gave us all all
three installments, Back to the Future and Contact. So I think, and I'm a big admirer of his work, and I think that that it'll be okay for it to be dramatics as long as they don't go way overboard, because I hope that their purpose is not to try and get the public to believe, for example, that maybe doctor Heinek was shown alien bodies floating in from aldehyde tubes, you know, or stuff like that. I don't think that they're going to pay as much attention to the facts in just the facts.
I think it's entertainment. They want to attract a big audience. I think they're going to get an audience. I'm going to watch it. I know you will. Uh. Even our our our mutual friend, George Knapp, the the multi Emmy award winning news reporter from kl A S t V and in Las Vegas, He's gonna watch it. He's already. How do
you know that? Because because he he wrote on on an email the other day, uh, in which he in which he said that that even though many people feel like it's been a long time since the History Channel actually dealt with history. He said this this upcoming show, he said, it's not a documentary, it's drama, so you can expect that they're going to take Liberty's uh. And then and then he went on to say, but this trailer is very cool, and you know, I'm going to watch this thing.
Yeah, you know. Yeah, everything's been taken over by reality TV, and it is nice that History Channel is going to get back to doing some history, just like National Geographic has gotten back to doing some science and history, which to me is really exciting. Of course I get to be involved with a lot of these things are promoting, but like of course Cosmos, Mars, the whole Genius series. I don't know if you've watched those,
but they're vikings. They're all really good programs and for the most part educational. Now with Bluebook, I have a little bit of a different perspective on the dramatizing of these UFO events, and it's because of Travis Walton. Travis Walton's of what happened on the craft in the movie is complete bs. I mean, it's totally made up, and that's I think an example of going too far. But being the great person he is. He makes a point that it does, though portray the fear, the sheer terror that he
felt at that moment, or he remembers feeling. And so it looks like for the most part, they're going to stick in bluebook to how the cases occurred, but of course dramatize them, which might be good because no doubt you know, you know this also from speaking to witnesses. When people experience something that they can't explain, it is a very emotional, dramatic experience.
It is. And one of the things that I always like to caution people about is that when they do have the nerve to come forward and admit that they've had some kind of experience, it's really important that the skip and the debunkers should not just come crawling out of the wall again and start saying things that will ridicule these eyewitnesses. We don't need ridicule in this category of UFOs.
It's just not a good thing. It doesn't serve any purpose. If you don't believe something happened to someone, fine, that's your opinion, but don't go out of your way to ridicule their stories. I like to say I think that there's one very important truth about everything involved with the UFOs everything.
I can very clearly state that the one important truth that covers it all is this, no matter what kind of UFO case we're talking about, no matter what you if you believe or don't believe, every has an opinion. And that's the most simple, honest, ongoing truth. That's the truth.
Everybody has an opinion. And how they share these opinions with themselves, with their friends, with the rest of the world, that's really important because words can change and can affect a lot of people, and so I always like to hope that people are going to share their opinions in the best, non
ridicule way when it comes to UFOI witnesses. That's really important. You know what, and what you're saying is more opprescient today than ever, especially given you know, and I feel bad for them, and of course you and I have had to deal with his for years and we've come to well I was going to say we've come to peace with it, but not necessarily, probably you more so than me. Get yeah, it gets under our skin.
But you know, all of these celebrities who like this poor Star Wars actress who just because she's a young Asian person and people felt that she was you know, it was it was silly to add her to the Star Wars canon. They attack her with racist attacks and just you know her personally. It wasn't even her decision to create this character, of which I think she did a great job personally and I love the character myself. And so she
cancels her account. It's happened with you know. In actually Comic Con this year, there were several different controversies like this that caused these actors or actresses to cancel their accounts. And so many people who are in the public eye don't even get on social media because people are so mean. Yes, yeah, and there's there's no reason for it. There's no good place for it.
It doesn't belong in any kind of social media. I think that that if people have nothing good to say, or nothing positive or constructive or supportive to say to people or about people who are just trying to get on with their lives with or without close encounters. If you don't have anything good to say, just shut up. Or if don't you want to go complain, go to some forum where everybody's complaining. Yeah, exactly, there's plenty of
that stuff out there. You don't you don't have to just make it your mission to put someone down simply because you don't believe that that that their story is real, or you don't believe that they they should that they were in this movie because there are a particular ethnic background. You know, it's not your place to say. Opinions should not hold that much weight, I believe, except for Jacques, Except for Jacques getting back to Jacques's opinions in that.
But he of course is not bashing people. He's being very respectful. He has concerns about the accuracy when of this new program, especially when they say things like that you know the Blue Book was top secret when it wasn't and some details like that, which I can understand those concerns. At the same time, Heinik didn't like Close Encounters for those same reasons, and you
and I have discussed this before. Whereas I love Close Encounters, I'm very excited about Blue Book, and I think potentially and so as a researcher, you know, someone who spent your life to try to decipher what happened and document as accurately possible these events. When you've worked so hard to obtain that accuracy, that level of you know, you're trying to get perfect accuracy. I can see how it'd be frustrating when people screw with that. Oh yeah,
yeah, but yeah, I see examples of this. Maybe you do too every day when I when I read reviews, book reviews or movie reviews by people who shouldn't be writing these kinds of things because they're not dealing with the facts or or they don't seem to care about what they're writing about. They're just they're just putting words together thinking that it makes sense. And I get really frustrated because when I worked at Huffington Post, I wasn't just a
writer. I was a copy editor as well, And and so I developed this this knack or this instinct of reading other people's story. Reason part of my job was to correct or make suggestions of how something could could read better. And and and there's so much of this non good editing stuff floating around everywhere in journalism, oh everywhere. Oh yeah, it's it's amazing. And what I like about you is that you you at least you, you come
across in your work as someone who cares about what he's writing about. You're you're not. You're not just pulling ideas from this place in that place for the sheer joy of ridiculing someone or pulling something apart. You're actually coming across like you've looked into this, You've you've made calls, you've done interviews and and and you have formed a valid opinion about what you're writing about. Most people who write this kind of stuff, they don't do the legwork as well
as you do. Well, well, thank you very much, of course, I know it's the same as true of you, even more so. I mean you're even more adamant about making sure you get first hand interviews when you write a piece. And you know you're part of the old guard, the old school where of journalism where you have original, you know, pieces that sufficiently tell the story. And it's just journalism, as you know,
is really tough these days. I mean, I visited that Huffington Post office and it was largely mostly twenty year twenty people in their twenties, and I mean people around twenty years old, maybe even less. I mean, and it's this quick hit, it's this very few words, get the information out as quickly as possible, and it's just journalism is in a hard space right now with everything online where it's it's kind of like, you know, the
old West. Everybody's still trying to make it up and figure out this new digit world of relaying information which used to be you know, the realm of journalism and publications and it's all changed. So yeah, and I think that it's hard, but I agree with you know, you're a good mentor, and so is George Knapp that you have to do your due diligence. You
have to do the research. And I like to I don't feel comfortable writing about something unless I understand it, So I've got to do the research and until it makes sense, and once it makes sense to be like, oh okay, now I get it. Now I have a perspective. Now I can, you know, lay something down. Yeah. One of the problems that's come along in journalism over the years, and you and you know because you've been part of this, uh, is this whole concept of blogging.
Oh man. People feel like, wow, I can become a blogger, which means I'm not going to be working for the company that I'm blogging for, so I can write whatever I want and nobody's going to proofread what I write, so if I make mistakes, nobody's gonna know. Well, I mean, and that's running rampant throughout the world of journalism. That's a big problem. So we're running out of time. But for journalists who budding journalists
or bloggers out there, visit a site called grammarly. It saves my butt and it's an awesome site that will actually help proofread your document even if you have an editor. It's good to do this first because it also helps you in you know, placement of your words and everything to make sure that you're being as clear and concise as possible. So it's a great site. I
recommend it to anybody. But we're pretty much out of time. When do you feel the audience might be able to get their first look at the new documentary with no name? Well, it doesn't have a name yet, right, Well, we have a working title, but we're not even we're not even letting that out yet because we made we may decide to keep it, but we actually have like a growing list of some possible titles. Yeah,
we want to make sure that it's a it's a really good title. We right now we're on on track of of having a rough cut of the of the completed program by mid to late September, so that's right around the corner. And and we certainly want to put a trailer together and we will. I can't wait to see the trailer because there are so many individual segments that we're working with and so many images that are in my mind every day of what we can put into this uh into this trailer. But I will I
will just say this, it's a little bit of a tease. The opening four minutes of our program is going to blow people away. I believe it. I am so excited about it. So thank you once and again for being on the show. Lead Oh, thank you, Alejadel, always a pleasure. Thank you so much to Lise Piego for being on the show once again. He's always so much fun and how amazing. Does this documentary look
pretty dang cool? And I want to say, you know, there is so much that's what's fun talking to Lee today and why I wanted to talk to him. There's so much exciting stuff going on when it comes to UFO research and the whole idea of this mystery being legit getting credibility. There are a lot of people in some circles saying there's nothing going on, it's bland and stagnant, and that is so much not the case. This is historic
stuff that we're dealing with right now. This is really game changing stuff. And I think that, you know, a lot of people have subscribed to certain worldviews and they feel that if that doesn't get acknowledged and they're frustrated. But you know what, this is how science, this is how the mainstream works. It's got to work slow. You've got to build on very strong, you know, foundation to really get something to have legs and to make
a big difference. And that's what's happening right now. So I think it's an exciting time. I'm really excited about all of this. So it's a lot of fun to talk to people like Lee who have been around for so long and working on this for so long, to check all this stuff out. I want to talk about the UFO Congress also Ufocongress dot com. Go there. There's some really cool stuff. We have these glow in the dark
alien hats, also the really cool UFO Congress trucker hats. We've got more in stock and a lot more T shirts, especially the black T shirts with the aliens and stuff, really really cool stuff. We've been going to some conferences and selling at things, and our stuff is super popular, especially as you can imagine a glow on the dark alien hat, I mean on they are really really cool. In fact, we'll get some more glow in the Dark stuff coming up too. We also have some videos, so we posted
some free videos. We posted some videos of UFO Jeopardy, which is a lot of fun. So those are some UFO researchers and we all get together and do like this jeopardy game. They're really fun, they're really funny, so I hope you like those out. Check out the UFO Congress YouTube for that and otherwise, Yeah, like I said, the store's got lots of new stuff and we're putting out new stuff all the time. Also, you can go to openminds dot tv to read some about the news that Martin and
I talked about. And you can also go to openmindstat tv to see some of those videos that I mentioned in my own UFO siting. In fact, go to my Facebook to see the Facebook live of the blue Book event and everything. So check out my social media for that as well. Anyway, thank you all so much. For joining us. Thank you to Caleb Hanks for the opening and closed music, thank you to Systematics for the bumper music, and thank you to Martin Willis podcast UFO for joining us at the beginning.
You all have a wonderful week and we'll talk to you soon. Audio Smooth, Chuchos Muss